Protecting Children When Co‑Parenting With A Narcissist

Fear changes a family long before anyone says the word divorce. With narcissistic dynamics, the house learns to tiptoe, and kids internalize patterns of freezing, fawning, and pleasing. We invited coach Jamie Davis to unpack a humane path forward: regulate first, then respond. Jamie shares how a simple DBT practice—five grounded minutes of breath and focus—builds the pause you need to choose words that soothe nervous systems instead of inflaming them. That pause becomes the oxygen mask for you and, by extension, your children.

We talk candidly about the myth of the “intact” family and the heavy pressure many women carry from culture, faith, and family to stay no matter the cost. Jamie offers practical questions to excavate old scripts—Has this person earned the benefit of the doubt? What does intact mean if fear rules the home?—and shows how reclaiming agency leads to clean, consistent boundaries. Rather than arguing the narrative, we learn to protect energy, name values, and model calm decisions that children can mirror.

When smear campaigns and mind games begin, the instinct to defend can undo hard-won progress. Jamie gives language to keep kids’ critical thinking online: I heard what was said. How did that make you feel? What questions do you want to ask me? Who do you know me to be? We explore how steady, predictable responses help children navigate cognitive dissonance without picking sides out of fear. We also touch on recovering your own identity—preferences, pace, and joy—so you parent from fullness, not depletion.

If you’re weighing whether to stay “for the kids,” this conversation offers tools, scripts, and perspective to make choices from clarity instead of fear. Listen, save the strategies, and share with someone who needs a steadier map. If this helped, subscribe, leave a review, and tell us the one boundary you’ll practice this week.

To reach out to Jamie to see if she can help you:
spincyclecoaching@gmail.com
www.stopthespincycle.com
https://www.facebook.com/stopthespincycle

Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.

Sarah Thress
614-893-5885
Sarahthressrealtor@gmail.com
Thrive and Decide Facebook

https://www.instagram.com/thrive_and_decide/

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61559936633799
https://www.facebook.com/SarahThressRealtor/
https://www.instagram.com/sarah_thress_realtor/

Real Estate Podcast Come To Find Out:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/come-to-find-out/id1704949604

Real Estate First Time Home Buyers course: https://sarahthress.graphy.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce. This week we have Jamie Davis, and she is a narcissistic coach, which I'm sure anyone listening is like, wow, there's a coach out there for that. There absolutely is. And she and I were talking, you know, before we started recording and we were discussing how, you know, narcissistic relationships really, you know, they affect the entire family. And a lot of times, you know, we as women decide that, you know, we need to stay because we need to protect our children. And, you know, that uh ultimately isn't always the best choice. And so, you know, in talking with Jamie, I asked if she'd be willing to, you know, just kind of share like from her perspective and also just from her coaching perspective, why uh, you know, staying and you know, trying to protect your children isn't always the, you know, the right answer. So Jamie, thank you so much for joining us again. I really appreciate it.

Living In Fear With A Narcissist

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Absolutely. I'm so glad to be able to be here and discuss this.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah. Yeah. So, like we were saying, you know, like off camera, you know, you made um an amazing analogy. You know, it's it's like uh, you know, they tell you to put your oxygen mask on first, but they don't tell you, you know, how to do it. So, you know, I just I thought that was so great. So I'd love for you to just kind of speak to, you know, children, narcissistic relationships, you know, how to leave a narcissist and know that, you know, your your sanity is going to be hopefully saved.

Building The Pause With DBT

Becoming A Safe Parent

Curiosity And Validation With Kids

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Yeah. Whew, that's a big one. Um, and I, you know, I always, as I'm coaching people, my job is really to build awareness so they can make the best decision for themselves and their family. Um, and so there's no judgment. I mean, I was in a 25-year marriage. Um, even with the things I'm talking about, I can't go back and decide what I would have done, right? I mean, um, but what's really important is to be able to see the other side. Um, and so that's kind of what I want to talk about. Um, when you're in a relationship with someone who's highly narcissistic, um you're living in fear. It's just you're living in fear. Um and you can feel it in your body if you stop and think about it. And fear is our friend. Fear is good, fear is a warning signal, but fear does not help us make the best decisions. Um, fear keeps us stuck and paralyzed. And that's when they say, you know, fight or flight. Um, fear it's fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So fear is freezing, fear is fleeing, um, fear is um submitting. Um, and fear is um, I'm trying to think of them all. Um, I think I probably got them. Anyway, um, but that's fear, right? So fear is doing that to us, and we don't have time to put on our oxygen mask. We're gone. In our minds, we're gone. And so what we have to do first is to learn how to get back in our body and from there make the best decisions. Um, so I did a lot of work in emotional regulation. Um, I actually did it with my daughter, and it's an old practice called dialectical behavior therapy, which is really the practice of learning how to be mindful, number one, learning how to emotionally regulate, and then learning how to show up in our interpersonal relationships. And it was so valuable. It was really kind of a two-for-one program for me. I learned so much. And because it was a 12-week program, and I was I'm I'm a people pleaser, um, so I did my homework, which actually really benefited me this time. And I I sat down every single day for five minutes and um and breathed and just would breathe. And I would just sit there with my feet flat on the floor, my hands in my lap, kind of looking down, and I would breathe deeply, and I would focus on my breath. And every time something popped into my head, which was every single second, I just put it on a conveyor belt and sent it away and went back to my breath, which obviously by the end of 12 weeks, you're really paying much more attention to your breath. And this becomes a default practice, then. And so you can, when you're you're hit with the fear, you can steady yourself and you can go into this way of breathing that helps you build what many people just call the pause. And the pause is a way to get out of fight or flight and to make different choices. So um uh we were talking about children. Um certainly, you know, I was in a position where I had two children and one actually had special needs, and um, I was drowning in that already. Um and so I just kept distracting myself and focusing on that, thinking on protecting my kids, you know. Um, I think I mentioned I was just the human Zamboni. I was just cleaning up everything all the time so that they felt safe and secure. Um, but what I did not know is that they did not feel safe and secure because they were absorbing all of these messages um in our home about fear and how to please and how to show up. Um, and they were using me as a model to how to get through those hard moments. You know, what do you do when you're so highly controlled? And so that's what they're learning. Um and so, you know, uh regardless of staying or leaving, the best thing to do with kids, especially if they're in a volatile situation too, is to deepen your emotional relationship with them. Become the safe person. And you do that by being curious. And uh again, the only way to be curious is by being inside of your body very regulated, and uh as you the so then when you see them in a hard emotion, if you see them at a moment where you can tell they're absorbing something, right? Maybe you see them um uh showing up like you show up in a response, and it's severe, right? You're you're thinking that is not what I want for them. Yeah, I heard them just lie because they were afraid. And no, no judgment, no punishment, that's your body surviving, right? And so what you can do is, and a lot of people think, okay, well, I can't do anything because I can't say anything bad about this person, right? Right, you can say a lot of other things, like sweetie, I I was right there and I I saw what happened. I'm not judging you. I I I want you to know I see you. And I can I just ask you a couple questions. Um, you know, you get your permission, their permission to say, tell me what was going on for you when you felt that what I think was fear, right? Um, what did your body tell you to do? What did your mind tell you to do? And they need validated as much as we do. And you can say, I can understand how you'd feel that way. That makes perfect sense. I want you to know your body's working great. Um I also want you to know that I'm here. Um, and we can talk about ways, you know, for you to send a signal that you might need some support or some help. Um, here's what I'm learning about myself. And I just want you to know this is this is a safe space. You can come to me. Okay. And if you need other help, we can we can start looking at that. But it the first thing you start doing is going into their world and being curious. You know, I see you in that hard emotion. I see you. Um, that is so validating for them and it helps them feel so seen. Um, they learn to trust you in a different way. They learn to know that everything they bring to that parent will be held and will be safe, and that they have a partner on their side, even if they don't know what to do. They have someone that they can kind of hold on to. It's it's really their um true north. Is that is that the phrase? I don't know, but yeah, it's it's it's really their kind of um touch point. Um, because when you're in that relationship with a narcissist, you feel very upside down. Feel very upside down. It's like going through the Stranger Things portal. Um everybody going through that portal needs a touch point. They need to have someone they can touch that's sturdy in their feelings and their emotions so that they can um steady themselves and move forward in a way that's going to serve them best. So that's kind of I think what we were talking about. I always say be the emotional scientist with your kids, be the curiosity coach. If it helps adults by building awareness, it will help your kids, right? Your kids have they're actually really set up for coaching because they're still really honest and pure, and so they can build awareness more quickly than an adult because they don't have all these layers of things covering themselves up. Um and your kids will always remember that you were that person. Um and if you let fear kind of dictate you, it's gonna go a whole different direction. Because parents are mirrors. And if you see your kid in a hard feeling and you look scared, like oh, oh God, that was so scary. I can't, you can't, I can't handle that. There's what they're seeing is someone that can't handle their big feelings, and the mirror reflects that they should be really scared too. And we want to be mirrors of acceptance, um, love, safety, and knowing how to put your oxygen mask on. That's how we can teach them to do it. So is that kind of what you were thinking I might talk about here?

Intact Family Myths And Pressure

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yeah, no, I loved that. I think that's so good. Um, you know, because I know we uh, you know, kind of got on that subject because we are talking about, you know, a lot of times we as women think, you know, well, we just need to suck this up because it's better for our children to have a whole family versus having a broken family, you know, and I'm sure you can speak to that um, you know, about I'm sure you have clients all the time that say, I'm just gonna stay, um, you know, because it's just, it's just best to keep our family together because, you know, for whatever reason, maybe they have a religious reason that tells them that they shouldn't get a divorce, or maybe, you know, their their family has told them, oh no, we don't divorce in this family, you know, or maybe they just feel like, oh my gosh, I don't want to feel like I failed at marriage.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Gosh, that's such a good point. Um, and I get all of that. I mean, I understand all of that. My, you know, I wanted an intact family, right? What does intact mean?

unknown 13:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

So if you're sitting there, you're doing that, you probably need to ask some better questions, right? And you, you know, why does our society place so much value on women staying? Right? Why does my church place so much value on it when I'm suffering so much? There's a lot of reasons. And unfortunately, in our society, women hold that, they bear that burden much more than men.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yes.

Unearthing Beliefs And Agency

SPEAKER_01 14:20

And who benefits from that? Nobody. The system's rigged, right? The system's rigged, and it does keep women as the only people that are really trying to help their children feel safe and loved and and and held. And uh that's why I think coaching is so valuable in this case. We often um just say things because that's what we've been told, right? And I'll give you an example. I was someone the other day I was I was working with, and she talked about how she was giving her husband the benefit of the doubt, right? And I'm like, hmm, that's a phrase that a lot of people use, especially women, you know, you just oh, give them the benefit of the doubt. So we say that just very um kind of naturally, like it's inside of us, but you know, we need to go, we time out. Does this has this person earned the benefit of the doubt? Um, has this person acted in a way so consistently that I can give them the benefit of the doubt? It's the same thing. And so when we say, like, well, I have to stay to keep my family intact, ask more questions. Get more curious because we're just saying those things because we've they're inside of us because of a lot of messages that we've received that need to be uh kind of unearthed and maybe excavated. So it's a way to open up the conversation so you feel like you have more control. Right? You you can you can learn, you can have more control to be able to make the best decision rather than just say, well, I have to stay.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah. Well, and the thing is, even if you stay because you think that's the you know, quote unquote right thing to do, you know, is it really is it really helping your children? Is it really helping them to, you know, have that family all together? Or are they seeing all the things you think you're hiding from them? You know, I I think that's the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

I know. And I think if we all were honest with each other, we would know, right? You know, would I want the same kind of marriage for my daughter?

unknown 17:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

And if I if I don't, why am I modeling this? Right? Do when I'm shrinking because of this other person, is that what I want her to learn? To be smaller and to not voice her wants and needs? No, that's not what I want for her. And do I want my son seeing that as a model for manhood? Absolutely not. Um, and again, I hold no judgment here. Yeah, I've been through it. I I um but but I I guess what that's what I love coaching because I didn't I was so in fear all of the time, I never stopped to look at it. And I think when you can stop and look at it and learn how to go into it and ask yourself really good questions, you're gonna find that you have answers inside of you. And you're gonna find when it feels right to follow some of them. Um, and you can be kind of kinder and gentler with your own self as you do that. So yeah.

Self-Abandonment And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Yeah, I love that. I think that's I think that's such an important message, though, is you know, because I think we as women, you know, do put ourselves last. We're, you know, we're always giving from an empty cup, always giving from a broken cup, you know, because we just think that, you know, that that's what we're supposed to do. And that's how, you know, that's how how the world works. And it just, it is what it is, uh, instead of, you know, really just saying, wow, uh, this is not okay. I'm not okay with this. I'm not okay with my children seeing this. Like there's gotta be something better and than putting in the work to become the, you know, the best version of themselves. Because, you know, like you, I mean, I didn't go through a narcissistic relationship or anything, but I did have, you know, a I did, you know, go through a divorce and I did realize how much I had lost myself in, you know, in my marriage and how I had lost myself in motherhood. And, you know, I think that's just that's so common when you get married. You want to be the absolute best wife you can. And then you have children and you want to be the best mom you can. And so you forget about all the goals and dreams and things that you had as a kid. And so then you throw on, you know, an a narcissistic relationship in there. It's even harder to really, you know, get out of that hole and really figure out who am I? What do I want? How do I like my eggs cooked? How, you know, what activities do I actually like to do? You know, do I really like tennis or have I been doing it because that's what he likes to do? You know, do I like eggs over easy or have I only been eating them that way because that's how he eats them? You know, just and that sounds so trivial, but those are such big things that once you figure out those things, it, you know, it just kind of trickles into, you know, what are the other goals and dreams that you've forgotten about? And once you become a whole person, then you're able to help, you know, your children become whole again, too.

Smear Campaigns And Critical Thinking

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yeah, it's it's a a really slippery slope. And especially in a uh a relationship where you're highly controlled and you have no power. Um, if you ever, it's really a house of cards, right? And so when one card really falls, all of them will fall. Um and I ignored all the cards until it really did fall, and I I was in a very bad place. Um and uh rightly so. But you know, when you can kind of remove yourself, and that's what you know, when I when I really got a coach was you know, I was going through the divorce, um you can start to see all the ways you abandoned yourself. And it's very when you start to realize how many of your own values you abandoned, um on top of the care for your own self and what you were modeling for your children, it it's it's a lot to it's a lot to see. I don't I've never blamed myself. I know I'm a highly sensitive person. I know I'm very empathic and and that's what happens. That's why you know protecting your empathy and putting boundaries around your empathy is so important because folks with empty empathy do have that's a superpower. But narcissists especially are a kryptonite to that and we have to work harder to be able to say no that's not going to happen. Right? Or that's not acceptable or I won't do that or I won't compromise here. And maybe that's even a place you start you know um because we have to start kind of being more full of ourselves rather than less full of ourselves. Selfless is a word that narcissists count on. They want us to be selfless it benefits them. And it's to our detriment and to our children's detriment yeah yeah it's I mean it's just it's so sad.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

I've seen so many narcissistic relationships you know I I have family members that are that are narcissistic and you know just seeing the the damage that they leave in their wake and you know just the the people that are so gaslit by them you know that's that's why I love that there are people like you out there that really just help ungaslight people so that they can you know be realize that they're worth more than what they feel they're worth at this moment.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

That's right. They're they're living in the Stranger Things portal. Um it's really the Godfather model right you do everything the godfather wants or you'll be in trouble. You're you're loyal you have to do this um and then there's a whole nother side of this when you do start doing this and you got kind of get worried that I'm gonna leave he's gonna say terrible things about me those are that's very true. But there are things you can do about that too that's another kind of complex issue people worry about is the smear campaign.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

I was gonna say I'm sure that is another huge fear for women is if I leave, I no longer can direct the narrative I no, you know and it goes back to I mean when I was in therapy for a decade just to get you know unlike ungaslit from just everything, you know, I had to learn that you know what other people say and think about you is none of your business. And you know you just have to continue to live authentically and if people want to believe that that's on them. But you know and it I I can get that to a point but I can also understand where that would be so difficult to think of that when it comes to your children.

Regulated Responses And Consistency

SPEAKER_01 24:23

And it's I face this all the time with clients it is the most heartbreaking thing for me. Because if you really step back and first think about what's happening is that the narcissists will do anything to hurt you. And when they weaponize you know the love you have for your children and um it's it's it it moves into a a way of retribution that's more psychopathic than it is narcissistic. I mean it's devastating um what you can do with your kids certainly um you know people say well I can't say that because I would be speaking badly about him no one's asking you to do that but you know when you do hear something you're allowed to go to your kids hey I heard that your father said this about me it's okay I'm not mad at you. How did that make you feel right how did that make you feel what were you thinking when he said that and then you then say do you want to ask me any questions you always can it's no question is something I'm gonna get mad at you for and it might be really must be really hard to hear this what I want you to remember is tell me who you think I am right tell me what you think is the truth. You want to engage their critical thinking skills right away because what the narcissist trying to do is mind control. And what's really hard for a child is a lot of times when you have that split of parents and the narcissist is trying to speak really bad about this loving parent the child experienced so much traumatic cognitive dissonance they can't hold that they have to pick a side and it's much easier for the child to stay with the narcissist and believe that because they know that the other parent is always loving and will always be there for them. But they become the target it's the only way the child can exist in that space it's so tragic for them.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

And so what we want to do is be able to name it um ask questions we don't need to say anything bad but we can ask questions and engage their critical thinking skills all the way and then you just keep showing up the way that you want to show up as a parent yeah well and I feel like that's where you know really focusing on the work on yourself comes into play because I'm sure when you hear I mean I I know for me when I hear that someone said something negative about me my first reaction is like are you kidding me like what am I gonna you know like I I want to go defend myself but you know like after you know now doing so much work on myself and everything I now it's like okay well that hurt you know what am I gonna do? You know or like you know either you you know but you just have to do that work so that then you are calm about the reaction you have with your children so that you can do what you just you know discussed where you can have that calm conversation like hey I heard this was said like you know what what did you think about it like instead of like can you believe your dad would say this about me oh my gosh like that is so not true because then all that does is just cause even more you know confusion in your child and you know maybe they had looked at you as like this calm loving space and now you're no longer that calm loving space. And so now they're even more confused. And at least you know the dad that's a narcissist has always been the same. So they're like well I'm gonna go back here because this is familiar. This is the same this is what I'm used to instead of you know like that's a great point.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

That's a great point. You know that that that child is seeing you become so dysregulated. Yeah. That's very hard for a kid to see because it looks like you don't know what you're doing at all. And maybe that person's right. And that person usually is someone they've always wanted a relationship with and now they have it. So there's so many things at play there. It's a really good point. What your kid needs to hear is wow that must have been really hard to hear. I'm sorry that you had to hear that what are you thinking about it? Who do you know me to be right? And you can say you know this is so hard for me. I'm trying I'm working really hard to um stay calm and make sure I show up for you in a way that feels the most loving and safe as I can.

unknown 29:08

Right?

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Those are the things you can do but you're right I mean you start and that's what the narcissist is counting on right your dysregulation because not only is it going to help the child kind of move away from you but it's also going to give the narcissist this energy that they want from your really negative responses. It's weird. But that's what they want.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah they feed off of your anger and your fear and the your reactions you know for them that's like they just won the lottery because they got exactly what they wanted and they have you exactly where they want you to be and you know when you stop caring that's when you know you see narcissists kind of spiral because they're like wait this has always pissed you off why is this not pissing you off now why are you not angry why are you not reacting you know like they just they just can't handle that.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Right right it's the steadiness that drives them crazy. So um yeah it's it's it's very complex and it's going to be different for every family every child every person um and so you know there's no even though a narcissist really operates in a playbook everything is their behaviors and patterns are always the same there's no sameness for someone on the other side but what I can do is say there's a lot of really good tools that will always help you stay grounded and not falling into the trap of the narcissist's playbook.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah yeah I love that well Jamie thank you so much for taking time out today to talk with us I think your your information is just invaluable and you know I I hope that everyone listening um got enough out of this uh like I did because you know even even though I've talked to you you know multiple times it's uh I always learn something new and you know I just I think what you're doing is so amazing. So thank you for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Thanks for um asking yeah absolutely and uh in the show notes I will have ways that you can connect with Jamie. So if anything that you've listened to today really resonates and makes you think wow I need Jamie in my life trust me you do um you know I you'll have all the information so that you can connect with her and you can start working with her. So thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next time on Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce.