Here’s How The Narcissistic Spin Cycle Keeps You Stuck

The word “narcissist” gets thrown around so casually that it can blur the line between a difficult partner and a truly high-control relationship. That confusion can be costly when you’re trying to decide whether to stay, how to protect your kids, or how to prepare for divorce without getting pulled back in by guilt, fear, or someone else’s shiny reputation.

We sit down with Jamie Davis, a narcissistic coach and the voice behind The Spin Cycle, to name the patterns that so many people feel but can’t quite explain. We talk about narcissism on a spectrum, what clinicians mean by narcissistic personality disorder and Cluster B, and the cycle that keeps partners hooked: idealization and love bombing, then devaluation, intimidation, and discarding, then the charm that shows up just long enough to keep you doubting yourself. Jamie breaks down how gaslighting connects to black and white thinking, why feedback is treated like an attack, and how control can creep in through finances, social perception, and “help” that isn’t really help.

We also dig into the different faces of narcissism: covert, overt, and communal narcissists who look heroic in public while you feel silenced at home. If you’re thinking, “No one will believe me,” you’re not alone. You’ll leave with practical tools for emotional regulation, nervous system support, and safer communication choices, plus a clear warning about why marriage counseling can backfire when psychological abuse is present.

If this resonates, subscribe, share this with someone who needs language for what they’re living through, and leave a review so more people can find these resources. What’s one red flag you wish you’d trusted sooner?

To connect with Jamie Davis at Spin Cycle Coaching:

https://www.stopthespincycle.com/coaching

Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Narcissism Matters

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Hi, and welcome to this episode of Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce. We are speaking with Jamie Davis, who is a narcissistic coach. And we've had her on before, and she just has such amazing insights, and she's so great that uh she was kind enough to come back again. So I was really excited when she agreed to come on. Um, so thank you for joining us. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Thank you, Sarah. No, it's always great to see you and talk to you.

Narcissism Spectrum And Cluster B

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Thank you. Um, I feel the same about you. Uh, but yeah, so I got to thinking, you know, the word narcissist gets thrown around a lot. And I think that there's a lot of, you know, misconception around narcissism. And I think that there are a lot of women out there maybe that, you know, don't recognize that they're in a narcissistic relationship. And so they don't realize that there maybe is more layers that they actually need to address uh before, you know, consciously uncoupling and divorcing and all of that, um, you know, and figuring out how to handle it. So I am so glad that you agreed to come on and just kind of talk to us about, you know, like what is a narcissist and, you know, what are some of the traits, you know, like if you're sitting there thinking, man, I don't think that my life's that bad. I don't think my, you know, my spouse is a narcissist, like, you know, maybe this will help them to to maybe have a different picture and see things differently, uh, you know, and figure out a way to kind of get through it.

Love Bombing And The Spin Cycle

Fixed Mindset And Gaslighting

SPEAKER_00 2:42

So yeah, I think that that is a really helpful way to say it. Um, because throughout my marriage, I had many questions that would come up after I saw certain behaviors and certain patterns. And I didn't have any words for that. I didn't have any language about narcissism. Um and so I remember the first time my therapist said, Your husband's a narcissist. Um I and one therapist said he has narcissistic personality disorder. I it was the first time. And I quite honestly, I didn't do anything about it at that point. I didn't even look it up because I didn't want to see it. And if you don't want to see it, you are blinding yourself to something for some very good reasons. I get it. And it's helpful to get curious with yourself and wonder why you don't want to know more. Um, but if you do want to know more, there's a heck of a lot out there about narcissism. And it's really narcissism, as everyone says, is on a spectrum, right? And a lot of people can feel narcissistic at certain points of their lives, but I wouldn't call them a narcissist. Um, and when you're calling someone a narcissist, usually you've got someone that's higher on the spectrum, or could even have a personality disorder. And narcissistic personality disorder is one of several within a group called cluster B personality disorders. And so it's, you know, obviously a real mental health condition. Um, and so the other associated disorders are borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, um, psychopathy, and uh sociopath. And so you've heard those words, um, but there's you know, there's criteria, there's diagnostic criteria that one would meet to be categorized that way. Um so when I hear of someone that's more highly narcissistic, you know, I of course can't diagnose them, but I want to look at what's happening in that cycle. And that's why I named my business the spin cycle, because when you're in a narcissistic relationship, it's like that, it's just a cycle, and it's a cycle of behaviors and patterns that you can identify. And typically it starts off a narcissist is really into idealization, and some people call that love bombing. So they are always putting their best foot forward and doing things that are going to just bring a lot of happiness and joy to the person they're trying to persuade to come into a relationship with them. Um, and typically narcissists, and I don't know the um you know pathology behind it, but they're looking for people that typically are more sensitive people because those are the people that love what they're doing and think, oh, look, I found my soulmate because they're being so sensitive and kind. And so then you kind of get hooked in. And then once you're in the spin cycle, whether you're just dating or you're married, you go through all these other phases. And the point of the phase and the changing phases is to keep control and to have power over you. That's the whole point. Um, and so you can also just call it a high control relationship, right? And you might not see it right away in total, because a lot of times it's just very incremental and um and nuanced, um, but it's very insidious. And so you'll often um have them start doing something, maybe because they think that they're helping you. So they might, for instance, say, Oh, I'll take care of that the finances in that area. But what they're doing is they're trying to get in control of the finances, but it's it's often you know framed as let me help you with that. And so when you start to see things that concern you, um, you might come to them with that feedback, and what you're gonna get is a lot of pushback because your feedback is never welcomed. Um I call them high-functioning narcissists too. They um they don't believe they're narcissistic and they don't believe they ever need feedback from someone. Uh, they are actually operating with a really fixed mindset, a very black and white mindset. And so typically in every situation you're in with them, there's a right and a wrong. There's never an in-between. And so if you were right, then they'd have to be wrong. Right? So that's that's how they that's how they view feedback. They they don't look at it as a gross a way to grow or to look at things in a different way. None of those things are tolerated, and they can't be wrong, and so they're always right, which leaves you wondering what the heck happened. I was just trying to give them my perspective, right? Um, and when you have someone with a fixed mindset, that's a lot of the time why you feel gaslighted. Because there's no room for another perspective. So you might say, I asked you to pick me up at six o'clock and you weren't there. Again, it's a right and a wrong. You never asked me that. And the other person's like, no, we actually had a conversation about that. But if that person who was waiting to be picked up was right, and they actually, you know, had the conversation about being picked up at six, and this other person didn't, then this other person would be wrong. And that can't, that's not tolerated. And so, you know, right? So it's it's a different way to look at it.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yeah. I was gonna say, I've even seen it to where um, you know, the person that was waiting to be picked up even chose the text message. Hey, we literally like, look right here in writing, we talked about this, and I I told you what time I need to be picked up. And I've literally witnessed them find a way to be like, oh no, that wasn't me. Oh, you're you made that up. Oh, you found a way to text from my phone so you could set me up to look like that. I mean, just every excuse under the sun, other than like, yeah, you know what, I messed up. I'm sorry. Yeah, there's right.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

There's just no ownership of that. And I'm not saying maybe 98%. I've like my ex probably admitted to being wrong maybe twice in our marriage. Wow. Um, when the evidence was overwhelming. Um, but there was no actual accountability for it, right? Um so, and there was really never even, I'm sorry, it was more of a, I'll just do that differently. There was no true acknowledgement, I guess. Um and so, you know, gaslighting, for instance, is a form of psychological abuse, which is very powerful. And it's meant to create doubt and to deny your reality. But I like to look at it from that perspective of right or wrong, um, because sometimes they're intentionally doing it, but sometimes they're doing it because they just can't tolerate the tension of being wrong. Um, and that's why you feel gaslit. Um, and so you once that starts happening, you start to question things in the relationship, which means they're losing control. And so the other things they do in the relationship is to get the control back. That might go into you feeling very, very devalued, because fear and intimidation are ways to get back in control. Um, and that might move into discarding, which is another phase, because that's a way to get control back, because you don't want to be discarded, you don't want this person to leave you. And so those are are reasons why you keep in this cycle. And if they feel like those things aren't working, because for a long time they seem to, but if they feel like that's not working, that's when they go back to the beginning of idealization and love bombing to remind you that, oh, this is the person you fell in love with, right? Oh, they're back. Oh, great. Um, and for a highly sensitive person, an empathic person, you are thinking, oh, good, you know, this person was just going through a hard time. I'm gonna, you know, have compassion for that, and I'm gonna stay because, you know, look, he's kind of showing or she's showing me all the good things again. So that's why it goes in this cycle.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

That's where I always say, uh, especially with narcissistic people, they're just charming enough to stay. So they're just charming enough to keep you on the hook. Just when you're thinking, oh man, like this is like we're done. They just turn on that charm and that love bump. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're back in the spin cycle where, you know, you're like trying, then you know, then they go back to their old ways and you're like, holy crap, like, you know, and then they apologize and they're just charming enough to keep you. And it, you know, it is that spin cycle.

Devaluation Discarding And Control

SPEAKER_00 13:41

It is. And the way the cycle stops, um, sometimes the narcissist stops the cycle because they realize that there's no love bombing that's ever going to work. They have to continue with discarding until it's all the way done. But they're typically are in another relationship at that point because they need to have someone. And so, you know, they may go all the way through discarding until you say, I'm getting out. But until then, they can kind of manage who they are by continuing the cycle round and round and kind of judging how what your responses are. Yeah. Um, and you know, I remember, you know, certainly as you're in the cycle, you know, the devaluation and the disrespect can come in a lot of forms. And so, for in my personal experience, the forms were really shaming. And because I felt shamed or intimidated, I stayed very small and stopped using my voice. And when you do that, that's the best thing for them because they've really got control and power then, because you feel like you have to shrink in order to survive. And that can go on for years and years, and um, that can go on because people want to keep their family intact if they have children. That can go on because they're really psychologically abused and emotionally abused, and don't know what to do, don't know even how to talk about it. Um, and they're scared to talk about it. And that's that's by design, right? Um, because the narcissist knows that they can convince others with their charm that it's really you that's the problem. And so you feel that and think no one's gonna believe me.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

So these are why all of these things stay in place. Um, so that's a kind of an overview. Um what did you what parts of that did you want to talk about more?

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah, well, I love the fact that you, you know, we talked about like the love bomber because I think a lot of times, you know, people just assume that a narcissist is just, you know, black and white, uh, like they're all the same, you know. So I'd love for you to kind of walk us through like what are some other traits that narcissists have that, you know, like if someone listening to this is like, well, you know, like I I could see what they're saying, but like, you know, my my spouse is is not exactly like that. So I'm not in a narcissistic relationship. So, you know, maybe just some of the other like traits that, and again, this isn't a blanket, every single narcissist is the same, obviously. Um, you know, so I'd love to just kind of hear like what are some other traits that you know people could look out for and and then maybe a great way to, you know, combat that.

Covert Overt And Communal Narcissists

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Right. Um, well, that's yeah, that's interesting. Um, because there are a lot of different types. Um, you know, some narcissists um don't have any problems spending a lot of money, right? Because they like the showiness of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Right. And some are very, very frugal because they they don't want others thinking that they're that type of person. Um, and when you have a narcissist in the family, um everyone gets used to the things that they're doing to maintain maintain control. Um and you also kind of can see things when you're in the world, um, when you're looking at people that like a lot of attention, um, or they're doing things to get the kudos. Um it's when everything starts to point back to them rather than what's going on. Even when they're serving, you know, a population of people, right? The stories are more about what they're doing for them than the story itself.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

So that's always something that's a red flag, is how they how they not only talk about themselves, um, because sometimes they do that even in the third person, but it's also how every conversation is redirected to come back to them. Um so you you pay attention to that. There's different kinds of narcissists, you know, like you hear about a covert narcissist who is very charming to the outside world, who may seem very much into religion and being a Christian. Um but a lot of times, you know, well, let me go back to the covert part. Uh it it's so many people think they're great people that they will never think that something's going on behind closed doors. And they wouldn't even want to. I mean, they just see this great person. Um, and if you have someone who's covert and religious, it's very easy to hide in religion if you're a narcissist, because there's a lot of high control religions. So it's a perfect way to stay under the radar. Um, and that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to stay under the radar. Yeah. You also see overt narcissists that you know, a four-year-old would probably say, What's wrong with that person? Right. Um, and uh really what's going on there is this incredible lack of emotional maturity. I mean, they seem like maybe they're in in either late elementary or middle school. And you're looking at the behaviors going, what is that? This is not an adult. Um, covert narcissists are like that too, but they cover it up. You know, but they also have this really stunted maturity level.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

And if you think about it, someone who's grandiose and it's all about them, that's what we think of our middle schoolers and high schoolers. And that's developmentally appropriate at the time. But you grow into an adult and you're no longer like that. But a lot of narcissists, that's kind of where they're frozen in time, and that's pathology that would need to be discussed with the psychiatrist about a specific individual to understand what they went through.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Right? Because we've all gone through hard things, hard childhoods, hard moments in our childhoods that affected us developmentally. And so I can stand outside of narcissism and have compassion for those folks. But when you're in a narcissistic relationship, you really need to protect yourself. And that empathy, you have to withhold the empathy to be able to protect yourself. Um, there's also like a communal narcissist, which is somebody who does a lot in the community to make a name for themselves. Yeah. And to look good. Like I knew of someone whose husband was got involved with the fire department and the police department and the school and all of these things. So again, his reputation was one that was really shiny. And people thought highly of him. But there's a lot that behind that. You know, he basically abandoned his own family. Um they're just things to look at. So the grandiose part of it is something I think that can be very instant red flags. Um so rather than think very quickly that this is a really good person, you always have to take things slowly. And you always have to, at every time you're with a person, if you have something inside of you that says, wait a minute. Then you should wait a minute. Um, because our brains are designed to lie to us, but our bodies can't. And so we've all had that feeling of something doesn't seem quite right.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

That's the feeling you listen to, not the head thing where everyone's like, oh, well, he everyone says he's a great guy. Look at his reputation. Those are the tricks that will, you know, have your your brain start lying to you. It's the stuff that you're observing that you really need to pay attention to.

Self Protection Validation And Support

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah. What are some uh what would be some advice if someone's listening to this and they're like, holy crap, like this is they're like she's describing my spouse, like to a T, you know, he's all like he's involved in everything. And everyone I talk to just thinks he's like the greatest thing since sliced bread, and you know, just has made a huge name for himself. And no one's gonna believe me, you know, whenever I say, Oh, let me tell you what it's really like behind closed doors. What advice would you give someone listening? Um, you know, to like what would be something you would tell them, uh, like if they came to you and they were just like, hey, I need out, like, or I need to find, I need to find a way that I'm not losing my voice, you know, even if you're not deciding that you want to divorce at this moment, maybe you're just trying to figure out, you know, like you need to go through the the cycle yourself of like, okay, I tried and I did all the things and now it's not gonna work. Okay, now I'm gonna get a divorce. But like, what would be some of the things that they could try? You know, because obviously just arguing with them or trying to, you know, do a whole smear campaign on them is not gonna that that's not the answer, even though we all want to.

Regulate Your Nervous System

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Of course we do. I mean, this it's not wrong to think that. That's just, you know, uh human nature to just, you know, especially if you know someone who's getting psychologically abused, right? You want to, you want to start the smear campaign. I get that. Um, but that's you know, that's a tactic that the narcissist will use for sure, um, because they're trying to protect their wonderful reputation. But, you know, it really depends on the situation. But I think that there's a few things that you can do to self-preserve. Um first of all, recognize that what's going on is real. You're you're not making it up. Um, I believe you, we believe you. Um, find a way to get validated because you will feel like you're living in an upside-down world, and validation's so important. I still sometimes need to have someone see me that understands a narcissistic system so that they can help me stand up straight again because it's it's bizarre. Um so that's I think number one. Um I think it's really important to start a process of learning how to regulate yourself emotionally. Um everyone now is talking about the breath. Um the breath is a real thing. It's so it's a it's a way to calm your central nervous system, it's the quickest way to. Um but it's really kind of building that into your practice. You know, I um did a course in emotional regulation where I for 12 weeks sat down at a certain point every day for five minutes and learned how to breathe. And as you start to do that, it comes more as a default practice then. Um because a narcissist, you know, we've talked about this before, they they want to get you to react. Again, I have no idea why their pathology is designed to want to get reactions, um, and they're doing it in a way that's cruel or disrespectful. It doesn't really matter once you're hooked. They just want your reaction. So, in order to not give it to them, you have to learn how to regulate yourself and not say anything, but develop a pause. And so I'm often will say, When you feel your nervous system like going into fight or flight, it's your time to say, you know, like I have a signal to myself. Um, when I'm feeling in fight or flight, I tilt my head or I will put my hand on my heart just to recognize what's going on. And that signal is for me to go, I need a minute. I'm having a big feeling. Um, and then I can better respond. So if someone who's highly narcissistic says something to you to get the reaction, it's your job to recognize the emotional immaturity here, um, just as you would maybe a child and not get drawn in, but maybe say, you know, I need a minute to think about this. Um to say something like, I hear what you're saying, I think we just see it differently, right? But you can't do that without learning how how to put your oxygen mask on first. People say that all the time, but you have to learn how to. So it's the breath and it's the pause and feeling like if you can even think about your sensation when you're getting in fight or flight, like how your body feels, I can now feel like I can pull my body back into itself. Wow. Yeah, it's it's interesting, and everyone can do it, and I feel a bit sturdier so that I can use my voice in a way that empowers me. Because if you're going into fight or flight or freeze or fawn, you're disempowered. You've you've just given them exactly what they wanted. They've taken a piece of your power. So that's really number one for yourself. Um I also suggest giving the narcissist wins. Do I want to? Absolutely not. Do I think everyone should do it all the time? Absolutely not. If you're staying, it's a tactic. It's a tactic for you, not for them. Um, but their ego needs to be filled. And in order to keep them steadier, find opportunities to do that. Um, we tend to get so overwhelmed by this person that we don't know how to do that anymore, or we don't want to. Of course. But if you have reasons that you're staying and need to preserve, this is just a tactic to help keep the temperature down. And so find ways to go, you know, you were really right about that. You know, um, I'm glad I took your suggestion. Whatever. I'll tell you, it really does a lot for just bringing things better into a better, a calmer place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Um yeah, no, and I think that's such great advice too, because I think when uh I I mean, I can only speak from my perspective. Um, you know, I luckily was not in a narcissistic um relationship. Um, you know, at least not like a traditional narcissistic, but I know when someone, you know, tells me something that I know is wrong, like I immediately want to just be like, um, no, this is what actually happened, you know, or like don't tell me what you think I saw, like I saw this. So I think that's really great advice to, you know, the pause. I love the pause because, you know, like think about it. And to me, it sounds almost like when you're raising your children, you have to pick your battles and you have to choose, like, you know, is the battle over what they're wearing today really that that worth it? No, it's really not, you know, and so it's just kind of the same with them. So think of, you know, your spouse as like your other child. And uh, you know, maybe they just need to hear, like, yep, you're right, cool, whatever. Thanks so much, you know, and you don't have to believe what you just told them. Um, but you know, that is a really great coping mechanism. Because I know not everybody that's listening is going to make that choice to leave, and that's okay. That's your choice. You get to decide what you want to do. Um, but you know, if you're gonna stay, then you need to fill your toolbox. Uh if you're gonna leave, you need to fill your toolbox because it's not gonna be easy.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

No, and you really genuinely have to be able to say, um, genuinely be able to give them a win because they will recognize your tone of voice. Yeah. If it's any, I am like the most sarcastic person around. So, you know, you couldn't know that very quickly with me. So you have to find a way to really go to be present and and give them that. The interesting thing about it is, as you mentioned, our children, there's really only one unconditional loving relationship, and that is with a parent to a child. There's no, even between a spouse, it's not unconditional, it's always conditional. Um, and so it's very hard to go. I need to accept to treat them as a child because you don't have that unconditional love as you do for your child. When it's a child, you're like, they're a child. I see them as a child, I see them growing. I'm gonna meet them where they are. It's a whole nother thing when you're doing that for an adult that's supposed to be your partner. Um, and so just understand, yeah, this is this is not just kind of bypassing how hard this would be, it's really hard. Um, and that's why getting some support for yourself to process through those things is really important. Yeah.

unknown 34:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

It's hard to do.

Can They Change And Therapy Risks

SPEAKER_01 34:23

So if someone decided, you know, for whatever reason, there's no possible way that they could leave this marriage. They, you know, like even if they're miserable, is there a way that that narcissist could actually heal? Since it is on a spectrum, it is kind of a mental health, you know, like thing. Is there a way that someone could fix themselves if they wanted to put the time in and if you were able to get through to them? Or is it really just a constant game of like choose your battle?

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Right. I think again, that also operates on a spectrum. And so when you're dealing with someone higher on the spectrum, a lot of times it's not possible. Because again, they live in the world of right or wrong. And so, how could they possibly be seen by a counselor or a therapist? Because all they're going to take away is that they're wrong. Right? Rather than be self-reflective, they're not it's not possible for them to be self-reflective. But when you have someone who's maybe exhibiting narcissistic traits, maybe they're a little bit emotionally abusive, they may have just learned that within their own family system of origin. And they may be really open to working with someone to change that. So that's when I think that's where the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder is valuable because you kind of know more what you're dealing with. So, you know, a lot of times they say that folks who are emotionally abusive, if they really want to change, they can. They can learn how not to be passive aggressive, they can learn how not to triangulate, they can learn to better communicate, all those things. Someone who's psychologically abusive and is gaslighting you all the time, or um uh blame shifting, or you know, it's really turning the tables all the time. That's where you have to go, hmm, I'm not sure they're gonna be able to even see this. Yeah. I will also say it's actually dangerous to go to marriage counseling. Many times it's more dangerous to go to marriage counseling with a narcissist than it is not. Um, you'd really have to have someone that wanted to change before you went to a marriage counselor, someone that would do individual therapy first, because a marriage counselor often they don't understand narcissism. And and the the marriage is their client, not the person, not the people, but the marriage. And so they're never addressing the core issues of what the problem is, because then you'd be just blaming one person. They're trying to look at the whole marriage, and just by design, that setup doesn't work because what you're saying is there's equal sides, but when you have someone highly narcissistic, it there aren't equal sides. That's a false equivalence. Yeah, and that's why it can be even more gaslighting to the to the person who's in it if you're in front of someone who's trying to just focus on the marriage. Um and I've seen uh I can think of three clients right off the bat that have gone through that and felt that way. Wow. Yeah. So um does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah, no, absolutely. I love that. Because I I just wondered, you know, because I think not I'm not saying all women are like this, because not all men are, you know, like one way and not all women are like one way. But I feel like inherently, um a lot of times women want to be the fixer and they want to know that they've done everything possible before they throw in the towel. And sometimes they don't ever want to throw in the towel because then that means that, you know, something didn't work out for them or whatever, and they want to fix it because we're all fixers and, you know, or the a lot of us are fixers. So I love the fact that you, you know, that you did talk about that not everybody can change. And, you know, that's so true about, you know, like a marriage therapist. Uh, they are there to try and save the marriage, you know, so they're not focused on, well, here's why it's not working out. It's like, well, try this, try this, try this, you know, and and that's okay because not, you know, like sometimes that's what marriages need. But when you're dealing with a narcissist, it's it's not really gonna be beneficial.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

So it can do it can do more harm to the person that's being targeted by a narcissist. Yeah, for sure. So, and if someone went to individual therapy, um, and that that person understood narcissism, they would quickly identify that this probably not gonna work. Right, and that's what happened in my situation. Um, so yeah, and you you you are face to face with this is just the way it is. You're operating, it's more than a person, it's it's become a system. It's how you have to show up in the relationship to make to keep this system afloat, you know, and I call that the house of cards. It could fall at any moment, it's really the weakest system, but it's based on all their power.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yeah. Yeah. I know it's it's fascinating. Um, just you know, is how all of this works and you know, how people kind of get that way. And uh, you know, I I think that some people are are born narcissistic, and I think some people, you know, unfortunately watch it and uh and then just live what they what they know.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

And it's that's great. And that's where, you know, that's you're getting into you know gin genetic things there and all of that that we just don't have enough information about. But a lot of times you can see maybe where the break was for that person in their childhood. Um there there was a break that really kind of aligned them with trying to totally protect themselves um from uh emotionally unavailable people. So, you know, you you can go, oh, that makes sense in that family, you know. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your day for um going over this. I think you know, all the every time that you're on, you always give such great information. Uh, and it's just so beneficial. So um I will definitely make sure that I have all of your information for spin cycle uh in the show notes. So if anybody listening is like, holy crap, I need Jamie in my life, you do. Uh, you want to reach out to her. And so I'll have all the ways that you can reach her and uh and work there.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Well, as you and I have talked about, you sometimes you need someone just to come alongside of you, just to ask a lot of curiosity questions so you can kind of become more aware of what's going on. Because if you're not aware, there's nothing that you're gonna do that's gonna make a difference. And um, I've been really fortunate to find those people that have come alongside of me. And I I it's something that I really enjoy doing. So yeah, thanks. Thanks so much, Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Thank you. And uh, I'm sure we'll have you on again. Um, so yep. Thanks so much for tuning in. Make sure that you uh subscribe so that you never miss another episode. And we'll see you next time on Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce.