The Rejected Parent

Your child won’t get in the car, won’t answer your calls, or suddenly treats you like the enemy, and you keep asking the same question: how did we get here? We sit down with Kathy Himlin, a licensed marriage and family therapist with decades of experience in high-conflict divorce and custody cases, to unpack what “rejected parent” dynamics really look like when the story is not as simple as abuse versus no abuse.

We dig into Kathy’s child-centered, safety-first approach to reunification and parent-child repair, including the four stages she uses to screen risk, give kids a real voice, and help parents rebuild trust through validation and attachment repair. She explains why rushing a parent and child into the same room can crash and burn, how “validation scripts” work, and why kids should not be asked to carry adult emotions or do the relational heavy lifting. We also talk about patterns that quietly make rejection worse, like coercion, threats, tactical gifting, or losing control at transitions after being triggered by a co-parent or the court process.

Then we zoom out to the reality many parents feel but rarely say out loud: the family law system can be dysregulating and traumatic. We share practical ways to protect your child’s routines, reduce exposure to court stress, spot signs your child is falling apart, and build predictability across two homes.

If you want more support, Kathy shares resources including her book The Rejected Parent and her coaching and consulting at Himlinconsulting.com. Subscribe, share this with a parent who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find these tools.

To connect with Cathy Himlin or to get a copy of her book visit her website:

https://www.himlinconsulting.com/

Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Speaker 3 0:02

Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce. Today we have a special guest, and I'm super excited because she's coming to us all the way from California. And her name is Kathy Himlin, and she's a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she really helps kind of guide people through the process with a high conflict like divorce, anything where, you know, children are involved. She's really good at helping people to kind of work through that. In fact, she is the author of a book called The Rejected Parent. So she has got so many resources. And what I find with a lot of people, you know, that I'm working with that the biggest concern that they have is their children and how their children are going to, you know, get through the divorce or, you know, the separation, you know, even if there was an illegal marriage, you know, maybe there's some sort of custody battle for the children. And, you know, obviously keeping the children at the center of it all and making sure that you're doing the best for them is the goal. So I was very excited though when Kathy decided that she would come on the show and, you know, just kind of share her wisdom. So, Kathy, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you.

Speaker 8 1:17

This is going to be fun.

Speaker 3 1:19

It will be. It will be. So I'd love for you to kind of walk us through, you know, maybe how did you even get into this field? And, you know, why is this like a passion of yours?

Speaker 8 1:32

Well, I mean, I've been licensed marriage and family therapist and professional clinical counselor for a long time, been licensed marriage and family therapist for like 30 years and been a therapist for over 35. And I started off with families and training with children. And then I went into social services or CPS to be a social worker. In that, I got exposed to a whole bunch of stuff. So when I came back out and went into private practice as a therapist, and I came across one of these cases, I go, wow, a court case that I don't have to be a social worker on, that I could actually help people more than just give them services and the things that I did as a social worker. So I got really excited. And I love court, silly enough, if that sounds funny as a professional. So I love any chance I get to be in a court situation. So I just dug into these cases immediately. And I thought it was really strange. The first one I saw, literally, I used to have a blanket before COVID on my couch and pillows and extra things for kids that get comfy, adults to get comfy. And this kiddo took my blanket and put it over their head and wouldn't look at me. And they couldn't tell me why they didn't want to see a parent. Because I specialize in families with parents that have a child who doesn't want to see them, who's rejected them. But this kiddo was like, I don't want to see this parent. She could barely talk. She couldn't

From CPS To Divorce Therapy

Speaker 8 3:00

tell me why. I dug into the case and I asked to see like the last court document. I asked, is there any CPS reports? Nothing. No domestic violence, no CPS reports, no substance abuse issues, no domestic violence. Did I say that already? None of those things, no criminal involvement. I mean, all I checked all the boxes and she didn't want to see her parent. And I'm like, I didn't get that. It was so confusing. But it was interesting because when I was a CPS worker, those kiddos would beg me to see their parents who had hit them and hurt them in multiple different ways. So the dynamic was different. These kids wanted to see who had been actually hurt by their parents, wanted to see their parents. And the kids who weren't hurt by their parents physically didn't want to see their parents. And so that's how I started. Because I thought, wow, this field, this area of therapy or this area of family law needs help. And then that was just the tip of the iceberg because I didn't realize how prolific it was and how so many cases just like that happen. And not to give, you know, there is cases too where there's physical abuse and domestic violence. And sure I have those, but I do have those cases still where there's nothing. There's no documented anything, anyways. So, which, yeah, that's why. Because now I'm like, ooh, here's my niche because I love court. Family law is way easier than working in dependency court because it's a different level of law. And it's not easy to be in it. I'm not saying that the trauma that parents go through and families go through is a real thing. But when you're talking about actual child abuse and dealing with that level of pain that children go through, it's really different, you know, situation. The stakes are higher independency than family law in a lot of ways. So as a as a therapist, it's easier on me and my system. Yeah.

Speaker 3 4:54

So that's yeah, no, I love that. And I think that's so interesting. So is that kind of what prompted your book was, you know, that you saw more, you know, more and more of these cases where, you know, children just were rejecting a parent, even though, you know, they weren't being physically abused, or, you know, or at least it wasn't documented. You know, it wasn't documented that there was mental abuse. There was no like clear answer to go, oh, of course you're rejecting that parent. You know, so I have to, you know, assume that that is kind of what helped you to, you know, inspire your book, but I'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 8 5:33

Right. I mean, as I worked with these cases, and I think I've been working with them roughly 10, 12 years or so, I just wasn't making progress like I wanted to. And so I started digging into the research, looking into AFCC, the Association for Families and Conciliation Courts, a lot of people hang out there to try to understand the dynamics of family law and high conflict, family law cases. And I was just looking for solutions to try to help these families because I was like, why, why, why if we repair, if we're able to talk about whatever the issues are and actually put in a repair, and I can explain that later what I mean by repair, but why isn't this working? Why doesn't this kid want to go back or want to even visit or even sit in the room with me and them? So I just felt like I needed to reach more people, I needed to figure out a better way. Then I sat down and found what I thought was a better way, and I still think it is a better way, and I incorporated attachment parenting into the model of what I was doing, developed an actual family therapy model where I pulled in other things to make it so it was very structured and protective of a child. I do not, oh, I'm gonna go down route holes here. I do not put, I don't put children straight in the room with a parent for so many reasons. I screen them. The process in supporting them is also doubles as a process for screening for safety for the children's exposure. Because I'm an ex CPS worker, I do not want to re-traumatize a child in my room. And since when I first get a case, there could be accusations, there could not be accusations, people haven't come forward yet. And I just want to have things shake out for a few weeks before I allow the parent access to that child if they haven't had access. So I developed this whole model. I'll go back to this and we could talk about that part later if you can keep track of this. I developed this model, and on stage two is where I work with a parent. And then I thought, ooh, wouldn't it be cool if I could reach more people across the country? Because I can only do therapy in California. So I developed a parenting class and I ran a parenting class for a little bit. It was hard to get people in on the same time. So we're dealing with three or four different time zones. And I thought, okay, what can I do that could reach even more people? It's easier access. And then I thought I could write a book. So I wrote the book based on the parenting class, based on stage two of my model. So that's where the book came from is I wanted to reach more people, have it be more accessible financially, and just accessible. You can just pick it up at a bookstore. So you could see the different things that I do in parenting class is very similar. It's expanded, of course, because it's a book, but to help support those parents that can't make it to a parenting class, or maybe have already taken some other parenting class and didn't get enough out of it, and they want something else, or they just want a little bit of support. So that's basically how I wrote this book. I really so I just wanted to reach interesting.

The First Rejection Case That Shocked

Speaker 8 8:30

I just wanted to reach more people. We keep getting this recording in progress sound. I'll say it again. I just wanted to reach more people, get to people that wouldn't even think to reach out to me, maybe they couldn't afford my services, whatever it is. I just wanted to do that. So that's where it comes from. And it's it's like I've been doing building blocks of this method and this way that I work with these people. And I'm constantly looking to find better ways to work with these families. Yeah. So I mean, there's my long answer for that one.

Speaker 3 8:59

Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. And like I said, I think that, you know, you going through like, you know, the steps and the process and everything help people to understand, you know, kind of where you're coming from and and why this is such a passion for you. So I love that, you know, you did kind of dig into it. I'd love for you to go through that model though that you were talking about. You know, I assume that it's the model that you use when working with a family. I love the fact that you start talking with the children first, you know, before the family. And I love that you do it separately because yes, you know, a child, you know, has a child has rights and a child, you know, should be treated with the dignity and respect that, you know, that they deserve. And so I love the fact that you like talk to them instead of like, oh no, like, you know, the adults are talking right now, like shh, you know, which I think that, you know, happens way too often. And I think that that is why we have so many grown-ups now that, you know, are not regulated and are not able to, you know, express themselves because they were told, you know, hush, the adults are talking when they were little. So I love that approach.

Speaker 8 10:07

So getting giving a child a voice is is the key and is the centerpiece of what we do. Well, what I do. Safety's number one, always. I always have to go there because sometimes people misunderstand what I do because there are people out there that don't think about safety because they don't know what's coming down the line or haven't been in the trenches on really heavy cases before. I don't know why, but they they think, well, I guess our old way of learning, our training models for a lot of family therapy models, you have intakes, you jump in and put the parents and the child together. I mean, that's sort of what I was trained to do, and that's how I started this too. I started doing things like that. Intake, put the parent and the child together, but that always crashed and burned, and I figured that doesn't work. Stop that really quickly on. So, what I do to support the child, and I emphasize, and people say, well, duh, it should be this way, but it isn't in most cases, is this needs to be child-centered anyway. It is about the kiddos. So, what I do is we have four stages, four stages of this therapy. And the first stage is the intake stage. So I'm doing an intake individually with each parent because I don't put the two parents together because most of the people I deal with are high conflict cases. And so they don't do well together in the beginning. At the end, it's my goal that maybe I could get them in the same room together alone and me talk to them about some co-parenting things. But that's my that's my wish for them. It doesn't always happen. But in the first stage, we do intakes with the parents, then I do intake with a child last alone, no parent in the room, even if one of the parents insists on it. So if they insist on being there, so I've got an anxious kiddo, I'm fine with that. We could have them in there for a little bit, but I do need to ask certain questions of a child without a parent present because otherwise they're being influenced. So I do that and I may meet with a child more, or I may meet with a child just one more time before family therapy. We will switch into stage two. Because in stage one, when I'm talking to the child, I'm figuring out in a way that kids sometimes don't realize what are the issues that are keeping them from wanting to see their parents. Just that simple, right? I just need to see are they afraid of something? Is there something really to be afraid of? So I'm assessing for abuse, domestic violence, substance use in the parents and dangerous things in the home. I'm assessing for all that without saying a word to anybody. And I'm screening for that so I can look for that. And when there is domestic violence and stuff that I find out through a child or from one of the parents, I will say this to them, which is which is so telling sometimes. I go, okay, okay, I see that you're really scared to be in this situation. And then we'll go down this rabbit hole for a second. And I and I want to support you in this and make sure we're both safe when we're gonna be in this situation with your parent. So do you think I'm safe in the room with your parent? And when I say that, and they say no, and I get a chill down my spine, then I try to explore that gently to try to understand what it is. I have heard tons of things. So this helps me assess the level of safety that this parent has, whether they're very unsafe or not. And I've picked up on some pretty nasty

Why She Wrote The Rejected Parent

Speaker 8 13:20

dynamics in families by just asking that question. It's interesting how a child will sort of report abuse towards them or domestic violence around them. But when you ask them directly about whether I'm gonna be safe in a room, they let loose on that question. So I've found that to be very, very telling. Anyways, that's not all my cases do I get responses to that. But I use certain things that are very calculated and used for a reason, and that one is two. So I get the list from them, this this list that they don't know I'm making. I get permission from them to talk to their parent about their concerns. And if they say yes, then we go to stage two. If they say no, then I have to taper that and I have to go, okay, well, maybe we could talk about one or two things because they're scared. They're thinking they're gonna get retaliation. So I try to negotiate maybe one or two things that we could start with. Because if we could get this going and I actually have a parent who is safe and who can address these things, then we're gonna be okay and it'll open it up these safety up for the child, and they'll start asking questions once we get into family therapy. Anyways, I'm going down all these details of things. It's because it's so complicated, it could go so many different ways. I just sit back and I go, I have no idea what's gonna happen next. I'm just gonna take my cues from the child and take in my information from the parents, and let's see what happens. So um, that's the exciting part of it for me. It's like, I don't know what I'm getting when I start a family. And I never try to predict things either. I just react to whatever I'm being given. So then we go to stage two, we have this list and I go through it and we develop these valid, what's called validation scripts based on emotion-focused family therapy by Adele LaFrance. Not to be confused with Sue Johnson. If any of you know couples therapist Sue Johnson, who passed away a few years ago, bless her heart. She has a great model too that's attachment, couples attachment. But what this is, is Adele LaFrance's uh child and parent attachment. And we build scripts around the issues that the children have presented. So I'm teaching the parents how to validate their feelings, irregardless of whether they think it happened or not, irregardless of their opinion of the situation. This isn't about being defensive and this is not about correcting the narrative. This is about recognizing your children's feelings because they do have them, even though I've been told by some parents they don't and they're not important, but that's okay, because they obviously didn't get treated nicely when they were kiddos, or they never would have said that. So I teach them that these feelings are important and acknowledging those feelings are important. And the only way you're gonna get a relationship back with your child or to improve your relationship with your child if you have some contact is to create safety. And the way to create safety is to be able to validate their feelings and to repair attachment ruptures. And attachment ruptures are when something goes wrong, the child doesn't feel seen or heard, maybe they got hurt in some way, physically or emotionally, that needs to be addressed and pulled into the light again and apologized for if the apology is necessary and their feelings need to be acknowledged. So that's what we spend stage two in. And again, that's based, my book is based on the parenting classes based on that. So we spend time in that. If I can get a parent to be able to sit with me after a little bit of rebellion in the beginning, because they don't get it or they don't agree or they don't something, if I can get them to understand how important this is and how this is going to build safety for the future, then we do a role play. And if they can actually role play with me, and as if I'm their kid or their kids in the room and I'm watching, and they're able to be sincere and they really I feel like they get it, then we do family therapy. So you can hear there's like all these different, well, you may not be able to hear it, but I I hear it. There's these different, different stages of screening I'm doing, right? And if there is abuse, if there is domestic violence, I do try to get a read on what the parents think of that. Especially if it's been proven that it's happened. What do they think of that? Are they making excuses? Oh, well, the kid deserved it. Are they saying stuff like that? If there's any of these red flags I pick up on, we don't even go to family therapy. Because number one reason I am putting the screening tool in is for safety for the children. And that parent has to do their work. This is the parent's job to do the work, not the kids. And that's another thing that's different. So when we get into parent-child therapy, which is not including the second parent, the co-parent, it's just one parent, one child, because that's the relationship that needs to be repaired. I make sure that the child is heard and they're not the ones doing any of the work. Some people think that, you know, here's a parent, here's a child, and the child has to understand the parent's feelings, the parent has to understand the child's feelings. That's not how it works. That's couples therapy. When you've got two equal, power equal people and equal power to each other is what I meant. When you have a parent, they're up here in power, child's down here in power, you don't try to make the one that's under you understand your feelings. It's the parent up, the person up here in power that needs to understand this person's feelings. So they're the one who have they have to talk, they have to address the feelings, they have to understand the child's

Four Stages Of Child-Centered Therapy

Speaker 8 18:40

world. And that's what the goal of that therapy is. And if we can do that, and if that parent can genuinely show up to the table and do that, most most of the time the kiddle responds. It really depends on how long it's been, because sometimes people come to me after, you know, a year, five years, and there's a lot of damage done. So that's difficult to reverse when that's happened, but it does improve things. So there's that stage. And then if I know I'm jumping through these, we do family therapy, we we go through that and we address each of those things, and then new things start coming up because the child starts feeling better and they start feeling safer and they can actually speak when they want to. And I don't mean that they're gonna be rude, I'm just saying that they have a voice, they don't get dismissed, they get to actually expect their parent to understand them. And if their parent doesn't in front of me, then I cue them too. And if they can't do it in front of me, then I excuse the child. Well, I work with the parent again because it's the parents' work. And in this stage, they have a lot of control. They get to say, like where they sit in the room. Some parents have a big problem with that, but it's important because they're being made to come here. Why can't they have some sort of agency in what happens and some control? Where I sit, they get to tell me where I sit, where they sit, where the parent sits. Sometimes I'm on kid chairs, sometimes I'm on a couch between the two, sometimes I'm at my desk. I let them choose and it's really cool. It empowers them, it gives them a little bit of power in their room because they've never felt that. And the other thing I give them is they can leave at any time to go in this other room that I have for them. Not go running out of the building, not go into the waiting room to the other parent, but go into the other room. So they're allowed to emotionally take a break if they're getting overwhelmed. And they don't feel trapped because you don't want a kid in the office that feels trapped. Panic attacks, you're dysregulated, they can't take anything in. So that's the first three stages. The four stages, if everything's going well, which oftentimes it can, then I end up feeling like a fly in the wall. And it's almost like I'm doing a therapeutic supervised visitation thing where I'm just sitting there doing nothing. I'm really not sitting there doing nothing. I'm observing a lot. I their interactions are starting to become more organic. And if I start talking, the child looks over at me and going, Why are you talking? When that starts happening, soon after I start talking about let's go do something outside of here. Why don't you guys go have lunch together? If it's allowed in the case, of course. So, anyway, so that's the four stages. And yeah, it makes me feel like I can track all this stuff. I I've got it, it's very clear to me when we go to the next stage. I tell parents ahead of time what I'm doing. So it's not this big mystery, right? Yeah.

Speaker 7 21:24

So yeah, that was a lot, but that that's it. That's my thing that I do.

Speaker 3 21:30

Yeah. No, I love it. And I I love that you have like the structured, you know, like phases that you do. And I love the empowering of children because I think that that is that's huge because I think that a lot of children, you know, have never felt like they could be empowered, you know, never felt like they got to choose anything. So I think it's huge that, you know, you start that that way because again, it allows the child to, you know, kind of let their guard down a little bit and actually like have a conversation. You know, with you and with the parent that maybe they've been, you know, rejecting. So I'm sure that with all of, you know, the work that you've done and all the different families that you've done, I'm sure you've seen, uh well, actually, I'm not sure. I should ask you, have you seen that there are like patterns, you know, or like certain things that led the child and the parent to become like, you know, for them to start rejecting that parent? Like, is there a common theme or themes that you've seen that have led to this? Because I'm wondering if anyone listening to this is like, man, my kid like will not talk to me since I started this divorce. And, you know, like sometimes I hear, you know, my my ex-spouse is a narcissist and they have turned them against me, you know, and like those have, you know, different implications versus, you know, just maybe the kid just decided to take, you know, one spouse's side instead of the other one. So I'd love to hear kind of what you've what you've uncovered.

Speaker 8 23:00

Right. I mean, there's different, it's, it's, it's not black and white. And there is different patterns that I've observed. And I do put that in my book too, the the reasons why a child may be rejecting you. And it could be in part because of your co-parent, that happens. I mean, I mean, people call parental alienation. There's, I think that we need to be a little bit less, everybody's doing parental alienation and everyone's abusing a child. There, it, there's some gray areas in here that people aren't looking at. It's not so black and white. And I think that even if you have a parent who may be looking like they're influencing their child not to see you, there's actually some things that you probably can identify because if you call me up and laid out everything that you've said and done with that child, like the before, like maybe six months to a year before the rejection,

Safety Screening Before Parent Contact

Speaker 8 23:50

I could probably find the thing that you're doing that contributed to it. And that's part of the book is like I really, you know, want parents, and I'll explain this in a second, to understand that yeah, it it could be partially your co-parent, but I bet you you've done something to contribute to. Because if if they've shown up, a lot of times when parents feel like the other parents against them, and I'm starting parents over here, they're co-parents against them, pulling the child away. There's so many reasons why a co-parent does that that maybe technically meets the criteria for parental alienation, but really isn't purposeful. Okay. So there's a lot of co-parents out there that are anxious and stuff. But, anyways, even if this is going on, if you get frustrated, and this is a pattern I see, is that the parent over here that's feeling rejected, that's feeling a kid pulling away, that's stopping seeing them on their visitation time, limits them to like a dinner, isn't going overnights, and that progression that starts to happen before the full rejection happens, a lot of times there is a progression into it. The parent over here that's feeling rejected, that's feeling like their child's being pulled away, oftentimes will do all kinds of tactical things to get their kid back. One of them could be hey, you know, if you want your Christmas presents this year, you'll come over during the time. Or you want your birthday presents, or I'm gonna keep your birthday presents so you come over here. So they're not really taking things away. They're just trying to get the, you know, lure them in. Like they're desperate. They want their kids and they don't know why it's happening, they don't know what's going on. That's something that they do. And what that actually does is push them away more, but they don't understand that. Because they think they're entitled to their children. Yes, those are their children. They're technically children are children are entitled to a healthy relationship with both parents. Yes, that's true. And you can't coerce them into coming to you. You can't manipulate them because if you do that, they know it and they're gonna feel threatened by it and they're gonna stay away from you. Now they have a real reason. If they thought they had a reason before that maybe was a made-up reason, or maybe it was some other reason in their head or their other parents, uh, the co-parents' head, you have now put cement on that, and now they're not gonna see you because of your behavior. So I'll see the coercive stuff, I'll see the threats, you know. I've seen people empty bank accounts and say, I'm taking your savings away. I've see people, you have to be respectful of me, and they get loud and they they get really forceful in their language and their tone changes and they get a little scary. And they do things like that. So when they're like that, I challenge anyone who's who has a kiddo that's not wanting to see them to look back and go, okay, how have I been in the last times that I was interacting with my child? How was I really? Really take an honest look at what you've been and what you've done around them. Did I scream at my co-parent in front of my kid? Did I slam a door because I was upset? These are things that scare children and they feel threatened by them. Even if you got provoked by your co-parent who may have said something under their breath, may have sent you a nasty ground text or something on a co-parenting app that really upset you or did something in court, and you come at the next transition and scream at them for it, and you do it in front of your child, that's going to cause a rejection. And that's a real reason to be rejected because that scares the crap out of them and they want to stay with a safe parent. So those are things that some of the things that uh parents do that they don't even think about because they're in reaction to the situation they're in and they're in reaction to the co-parent. And frankly, a lot of parents I meet aren't monsters. Some people call them monsters. They're not. They're they're normal people like you and me who got put into an extraordinary stressful situation and a feeling where they were losing their kid, and they start acting in ways they have never acted in their entire life. They turn into different people. Yeah. And I don't blame them. So that's one thing that happens for a reason. And the other reasons are reasons the kids have, reasons the situation, and the reasons the co-parent actually helps to push along. If you want me to go in those, I'm happy to go into some of those. So many things.

Speaker 3 28:10

No, I just think this is so fascinating because, you know, as you're like, as you're talking about stuff, and you know, I'm thinking back to, you know, my own personal experience, and I'm also thinking about like clients, and and it is, it's so easy to get triggered by that other co-parent. They can send you, you know, the most condescending text message or condescending email, or they say something really, you know, shitty under their breath. And, you know, like it can, it can send you spiraling. And I get it because, you know, I've gotten to that point sometimes where I'm just like, ugh, you know, I've been able to hold it in in front of my child, you know, but I also have just really wanted to just, you know, lose, lose my shit on them, you know. So like, so I I get exactly like what you're talking about. And it does, you know, take a level of, you know, calmness to really just go, okay, you know what? I can feel how I feel, but guess what? Like this is about my

Validation Scripts And Attachment Repair

Speaker 3 29:10

child. So that that will stay over here in this compartment. And this right here is just my interaction with you, with our child, and that's it.

Speaker 8 29:17

And it's hard to be regulated. That's the whole point that I bring in there too. That when you're in a divorce, in a high custody, high, high custody, high contested divorce where it's a lot of stress, then this is trauma. This is this is trauma. You've got a system that's broken. You've got, you may have an attorney that's acting like you feel and acting out their own personal stuff with their past divorce or their issues around divorce or their childhood. And it's dysregulating. This this is just a thing. The system just goes in and messes up families. And I can honestly say that because I sit there and watch it every day. So it's hard to regulate. And I think one of the big things, like I talk about again, I don't mean to keep talking about the book. I'm like looking at it, going, it's right there in that chapter, about regulating yourself. If you could find a way to get regulated so your co-parent isn't triggering, triggering you, so the situation isn't triggering you. It could be anybody that could trigger you. A judge could just decide to side with your co-parent and do the opposite of what you think is right, or something like that. Or, or you've got an attorney that's not very empathetic to your situation and takes off and does this whole big declaration without telling you, and you don't even read it because you think that they did the declaration, declaration the way you wanted them to. And then there's all this inflammatory things and they're starting a bigger fight with your co-parent. I've seen that happen too. So there's so many things that can beat you down and make you feel like you're completely out of control. You're right, the system's in control. Once you get in that system, it takes off. And unless you have a good judge with an honest, good attorney that's regulated themselves, you're gonna have a really hard time in the system. So I don't blame parents for getting in that space. I'm just saying, either. I'm just saying, man, if you could regulate yourself so you're not reactive, you know, and the camera, the cameras, the phone cameras like they go at you in a transition. If that starts happening, don't react to it, right? Just call your attorney. Report it. It's illegal unless the judge told you to do it. But don't start a fight over things like that because then you do that in front of the kid, and then that's really hard. But yeah, so many things people don't think about because you're just being human. You're in an inhuman situation being human, and then you get punished for it if the kid gets exposed to it. And they this shouldn't even be getting to this point. I think that divorce should be transactional and it should not be in court. It's this isn't criminal court, this isn't CPS, this isn't civil court where we're doing a lawsuit with that. We don't need to have a jury, which we don't have, but we don't need to have all this judgment and stuff unless there's real stuff going on, like domestic violence and child abuse, and kick those up to the courts that deal with that stuff. But that's just my opinion.

Speaker 3 32:04

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And I I love that you have taken the approach that you have, because I think that, you know, yes, there's a lot of like, you know, family therapists out there, there's a lot of children therapists out there, but you know, there's not a lot of, you know, at least that I know of, of people that are really looking at it, you know, kind of from the lens that you are and empowering the child. I love that you created that book. You know, it's it clearly has so many resources in it. So I will definitely make sure that there is a link in, you know, in the show notes so anyone can find it. Because I think that, you know, if somebody is listening and they're like, oh my gosh, like I, you know, that like this is really resonating with me. You know, I love that there is that resource out there because I just think, you know, knowledge is power. And the more, you know, knowledge you can get, the more powerful you are for yourself. I also love the fact that you talk about being regulated because I think that's one of the things that isn't talked about enough. You know, just when you're going through the divorce, you know, it's a lot of the reason why I created Thrive and Decide is because, you know, when you're going through the divorce, you are so lost in emotion that you're not thinking about, you know, how like all the things. You're not thinking about, I need to change my beneficiaries, I need to, you know, figure out what I'm gonna do with the house. I need to figure out, you know, like just you're not thinking about all those things. You're just thinking about the loss that you, that you had. And so it takes a while to get regulated and to be able to, you know, keep those emotions at bay so that you do keep that, you know, child at the forefront of everything. And, you know, it's like I always say, like, divorce isn't fair. Nothing about divorce is fair. There's not one thing about it. You can't split children in half. You can't, you know, you can't split a house in half. Like, you know, there's like there's just a lot of things that there's that it's not fair. So I love, again, that you're going through this and helping because I think that, you know, it's a topic that people don't, they don't talk about. And, you know, there are a lot of parents out there that are feeling rejected by their kids and, you know, maybe they don't realize, you know, why. And I love the fact too that you're basically like, put a mirror up. Like, yes, your spouse could be the one that is triggering you, but like look in the mirror and see why is that triggering you? And how can you keep it from triggering you? And I know that sounds so hard. Like when you're in the middle of it, trust me, I get it. But if you can like really like step back, do whatever it is that regulates you, taking a walk, putting your feet in grass, like taking a shower, like any of the things that ground you, you know, you're gonna find it so much easier to move through because it you're not gonna no longer be worried about it's not fair. You're gonna be more worried about like, okay, how do we just get through this and focus on our kids?

Speaker 8 34:54

Right, right. And focusing on the kids is the big thing that doesn't happen because when we're dysregulated as parents, then when anybody's dysregulated, you're not thinking of other people. You're trying to calm your system down, you're trying to fight for yourself. And it isn't that

Giving Kids Agency In Sessions

Speaker 8 35:10

we're selfish or narcissistic or anything like that. I'm not saying that. It's just that's just the nature of being dysregulated. Your frontal lobe, your right and left brains as a train is off the track. It's not working. That's your way to problem solve and reason through things. When you're got your amygdala or your lizard brain or whatever, fight or flight, however you look at it, brain going, that's all it's focused on. You're in a burning building, and how can you get out of it? That's it. And that doesn't mean it's it's your fault. It doesn't mean there's a fault in your personality either. The family law system, as it's designed right now, is set up to dysregulate everybody in it, including a judge. I have haven't seen very many that are too, they seem calm, but they're confused. Nothing against judges. Attorneys, likewise, they're going in fight, fight, fight. Most of them, I mean, that's all dysregulated. And and it's just, I don't know, it's so messy. How could you not? The most reasonable person that had the best upbringing can step into a divorce and and become someone different. It's just really, really hard. So I think there's a lot of shame when things make people make mistakes, and they need to realize that they're in a system that's set up to make them make those mistakes. And it's not that there's this evil entity creating this thing. It's just the nature of the system. And so they need to give themselves grace because that's the only way you're gonna regulate yourself again, is give yourself grace and not spiral into a shame, blame, spiral if you can. And if you can't, do that on your own. Go seek some help. Go get a coach, go get a therapist, do something to help ground yourself because you don't have to be so reactive in this. You don't have to. It's easy to be, but you don't have to, right? Yeah. And as far as like I'm thinking about sorry, I'm getting over a cold. You're okay. And my voice goes once in a while. Um, about children and what can we do to help if you can we talk about that? What can we do to help them get through divorce more successfully so they don't go repeating patterns? Number one, later on in their own relationships, and number two, that they're not falling apart.

unknown 37:22

Yeah.

Speaker 8 37:22

How can you tell if a kid's starting to fall apart? I'm gonna start with that because that's the first thing I look at. How's their sleep? Has their sleep changed? How's their eating? Has their eating changed? These are two basic things. Are the grades slipping? Are the grades getting alarmingly better? That's also another sign, honestly. Are they withdrawn for their friends? Are they going into the room and spending more time alone? I would pay attention to that stuff because that's a sign of functioning. And if they're saying, hey, I don't want to play football anymore, I don't want to go to dance, I'm, you know, this has been too much, you know, maybe after you two figure out where we're living, I'll do it again. Now, the best thing to do for kids, and if they're doing that, you want to try to get them more engaged with their peers. You want to get them involved in activities. You want their day-to-day activities to remain the same. I see parents make this mistake, and I will call it a mistake, and they yank kids out of soccer, football, gymnastics, dance, whatever, right when the divorce starts because they can't afford it or they don't have time to transport. Oh, that's the worst thing you could do because kids need consistency. I mean, there's so much literature, like through trauma exposure, like you know, when we were having the fires out here, we there's a whole these studies and stuff on these kids. The best thing you can do, and when they brought counselors into these schools when we were having fires and they were trying to counsel them and the parents, like, keep their routines the same. So try to keep the routines the same. If you used to make pancakes on Sunday, keep making those pancakes on Sunday. Even if you have to make them ahead of time and heat them up in the microwave, do that. If they were in soccer, keep them in soccer if you can. I mean, usually we pay ahead of time for things like that. Don't make major changes like that. If they got to go to grandma's on Saturday night to go make cookies with them, I don't know why I'm thinking of baking. I guess I was baking the other day. Or go and whatever they do with grandma or grandpa or whatever, or an aunt and uncle, don't change those things because they need to have consistency. That's like an easy low-hanging fruit you can do. Keep that if you're able, right? You have a co-parent. So sometimes co-parents don't get along in the beginning, especially. Maybe it can't happen, but of all the things you can do is try to keep it consistent and the same. And the other thing is, is kids are way more aware than you think they are. Don't have phone calls in your house when they're there. If you need to have a phone call with a friend or an attorney or a therapist or somebody, do it outside the house where they cannot hear you for sure. Go for a walk if you can, if your kids are old enough. Don't let them hear that. Or better yet, wait until they're in school. They're not in the house. I guarantee you, if you think they're sleeping, they're not. If you're having a conversation about this divorce, they are at their door listening, or they're at the top of the stairs, or they're at the end of the hallway, whatever your configuration of your living situation is. I can't even tell you how many kids, but the majority of them are listening. And they're they're little sleuths and they're like little Sherlock Holmes, and they're trying to figure out what mom and dad are doing, or dad and dad, or mom and mom are doing, whatever the configuration is, they're trying to figure it out. And so they're listening and they're paying attention and they're picking up on these little things. You take them to a park and you're talking to a friend on the phone. You better make sure you're you're not within hearing distance because they'll hear you. So try to block exposure to court documents and court phone calls. Don't even tell them the court exists, would be my preference. And not that there's a court date happening ever if they know court exists. Because sometimes kids are represented by minors counsel or child's counsel, whatever they're called in your particular area. So they know court exists, but they don't need to know when the court date is because that guess what happens? They get anxious. Yeah, they're just stressed about it, totally stressed about it. And now you've just put your child in the middle of an adult battle that they shouldn't have anything to do with. They need to just live their life peacefully as if this is happening over here and they're over here. And let's try to keep it separate. So if there's any way, and even if you've already started exposing things to them, if you could just stop, you probably will see a decrease in anxiety and acting

Why Kids Reject A Parent

Speaker 8 41:40

out or whatever it is that's going on with your child if you can just stop exposing them to court stuff. And the other thing is the predictability of going back and forth between parents. What I recommend, even for teenagers, is having a calendar in each house and putting on there when they're going to be a dad or mom's house. And you have stickers for each of them. If they're teenagers, you could just have them write the names so they can see it. For littles, even four-year-olds or three-year-olds, have them pick out stickers. You help them put them up on the days that they're supposed to see the other parent or you, and then help them cross the days off as they go. They don't need to know how to read a calendar for this to work. But you know what this does? This makes them feel like they know what's going to happen next in their lives. Like they don't need to know about court, but this is day-to-day life stuff. So they know what's going to happen next. So it's not just this thing happening to them that's out of their control. And that's partially why kids act out during a divorce, is they they aren't being informed of the things they do need to know, and they're being informed of the things they should never know. Yeah. So that's very helpful. Sit down and talk to them. If you're about to get a divorce and you haven't gotten one, then find out how to sit with them with a book. There's so many cool books, and I wonder if I have any of these in my bookshelf right now. Like Coco Bear, it's not your fault. That's one, two homes. And I'm I'm sorry, I'm gonna look off for a second. I love this. I have a few books. I mean, here's one when my parents forgot how to be friends. Sometimes it doesn't apply. Yeah. Jennifer Moramalinos. I may have said her name wrong. But this is a nice one. Another one is Two Homes, which is really good. Cocoa Bear, it's not your fault. I don't have those books with me, but I use those in my practice because it sort of walks it through. Because again, kids take responsibility for a divorce. They think it's their fault. A lot of them do. They may never ever say it, right? But they do. So you want to try to like preempt that. And if you're going to explain that a divorce is going to happen, Cocoa Bear, it's not your fault. If you have like a preteen or younger, that is such a beautiful book because one, it's it's gender neutral. Two, you could talk about how both parents love that bear. But it's got they did nothing, it's not your fault part, and it's such a beautiful book, it's just an easy reading book. So it sort of shows a kid in a preschool, but it applies to anybody. There's just things like that you could do to just sit down and acknowledge it. And the the message they need to get, even if you don't use a book, is hey, we're gonna be splitting up homes. And if you can say this, if it applies, we don't love each other, we're not gonna be with each other anymore, but we love you and care for you, and you're always gonna be well taken care of. One of us will always be with you at any time. We're gonna be doing things a little different, we'll explain that later, but we're we want to let you know because when you just get a divorce and start splitting up, and the kids are like, What is going? Why did dad or mom move out? I mean, that that's just too hard on them, right? So letting them have some awareness, label to what's going on is a good thing. And I know some people are like, Oh, we're always gonna love each other. Great. Then don't say that, say something different. Yeah. You know, I've had people do that. I'm like, it's cool, that's cool. This is just an example of what I do with kids. It and if parents need it, they can get a therapist to do that with them. Like I do that with parents too. I offer that. So letting them know that and keeping them in the regular schedule and not exposing them, that all that stuff will go a long way. And if you see other things happening, they're eating, sleeping, school performance, social engagement starts changing, then it might be time to get a therapist for them. But they don't automatically need a therapist just because you're going through a divorce.

Speaker 4 45:33

Yeah.

Speaker 8 45:34

Because it's not, they're not the problem.

unknown 45:36

Right.

Speaker 8 45:36

That's not the problem. They're just reacting to the family, splitting up. That's all it is.

Speaker 3 45:41

Yeah. No, I love that. And I love your approach, and and I love that you say, you know, because I think that sometimes, you know, parents do they're they're well meaning, but they're like, well, I'm in therapy, they need to be in therapy, you know, they like they need to work through this. And it's like, well, I mean, maybe, but maybe not. Maybe they could, you know, just like if you're just supporting them and, you know, in the ways that you've just like, you know, given as examples, then they wouldn't actually need, you know, any further, you know, therapy. Although I think everyone needs therapy at, you know, some point in their life.

Speaker 8 46:15

But I mean, kids just don't automatically know need need it because of a divorce. I think that the majority of the kids I see when they get put into therapy, the reason why they're in therapy is because their parents have withdrawn and there's they're not paying attention to their kid as much. There's fighting they're exposed to. There's something within the family that's happening. So they're they're reacting to something. It isn't that they have an issue they need to work through. What really would be better in these situations, and you're right, I think everyone should have therapy eventually, but the young kids don't necessarily need it because if their parents were grounded and they were focused on what the child needs, the child wouldn't even feel the pain of the divorce. Yeah. So the therapy sometimes serves as a band-aid for something that needs to be happening at home. And I find myself working more with parents if I'm seeing a child individually than I do with the child itself. Because, you know, it's it's it's more of a reaction to their situation that's out of their control. Yeah. And do kids develop some sort of diagnosis that's because of everything? Sure, that happens. There's PDSD and some kids come wired with ADHD sometimes and other things that happen, but you know, a lot of it's reactivity, anyways, right? And therapy is a great place for them to process it and have a safe space if they have two parents that can't regulate. I'm just saying that if we could get the parents to get their stuff together and to get regulated,

Regulation In A Dysregulating System

Speaker 8 47:40

we wouldn't need so much therapy for kids in divorce. That's all. Yeah.

Speaker 3 47:45

Nope. I totally agree. I agree. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. You have given so many good nuggets. Hopefully, everyone, you know, listening has, you know, really received some of this information and it's been really helpful. Like I said, I will absolutely have a link to your book, you know, in the show notes and any other resources, you know, that you would like to put out there. I know you mentioned you can only counsel people in California. So if anyone listening is in California, you know, and is looking for someone, definitely look for Kathy Hemlin and she can take care of you. But if you're not in California, that book is a great resource. Anything else you want to add?

Speaker 8 48:25

I I actually have a consultation business. That's how I do parenting support across the country. So it's called hemlinconsulting.com. So hemlinconsulting.com, I said that so fast. And that's where I can actually support parents. And I have the parenting class through there, and I can't do therapy, but I am a coach, a parenting coach for high conflict divorce. So yeah.

Speaker 3 48:46

Perfect. I love that. These are such great resources. I'm gonna make sure that all of those are linked. And I'm sure that uh there's plenty more that we could discuss. So hopefully, you know, I can get you back on the show again another time.

Speaker 48:58

Okay, thank you.

Speaker 3 49:00

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. And thanks for tuning in. Make sure that you leave feedback because that is the greatest gift that you can give. A five-star review obviously is very much appreciated. And uh make sure that you're sharing this with others because again, knowledge is power. So share this with others and make sure you're following the show so you never miss an episode. Thanks so much, and we'll see you next time on Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce.

Speaker 8 49:27

Anyways, it is about the kiddos. So, what I do is we have four stage four stages of this therapy. And the first stage is the intake stage. So I'm doing an intake individually with each parent because I don't put the two parents together because most of the people I deal with are high conflict cases. And so they don't do well together in the beginning. At the end, it's my goal that maybe I could get them in the same room together alone and me talk to them about some co-parenting things. But that's my that's my wish for them. It doesn't always happen. But in the first stage, we do intakes with the parents, then I do intake with a child last alone, no parent in the room, even if one of the parents insists on it. So if they insist on being there, so I've got an anxious kiddo, I'm fine with that. We could have them in there for a little bit, but I do need to ask certain questions of a child without a parent present because otherwise they're being influenced. So I do that and I may meet with a child more, or I may meet with a child just one more time before family therapy. We will switch into stage two. Because in stage one, when I'm talking

The Model Revisited With More Detail

Speaker 8 50:30

to the child, I'm figuring out in a way that kids sometimes don't realize what are the issues that are keeping them from wanting to see their parents. Just that simple, right? I just need to see are they afraid of something? Is there something really to be afraid of? So I'm assessing for abuse, domestic violence, substance use in the parents and dangerous things in the home. I'm assessing for all that without saying a word to anybody, and I'm screening for that so I can look for that. And when there is domestic violence and stuff that I find out through a child or from one of the parents, I will say this to them, which is which is so telling sometimes. I go, okay, okay, I see that you're really scared to be in this situation. And then we'll go down this rabbit hole for a second, and I and I want to support you in this and make sure we're both safe when we're gonna be in this situation with your parent. So, do you think I'm safe in the room with your parent? And when I say that, and they say no, and I get a chill down my spine, then I try to explore that gently to try to understand what it is. I have heard tons of things. So this helps me assess the level of safety that this parent has, whether they're very unsafe or not. And I've picked up on some pretty nasty dynamics in families by just asking that question. It's interesting how a child will sort of report abuse towards them or domestic violence around them. But when you ask them directly about whether I'm gonna be safe in a room, they let loose on that question. So I've found that to be very, very telling. Anyways, that's not all my cases do I get responses to that. But I use certain things are very calculated and used for a reason, and that one is two. So I get the list from them, this list that they don't know I'm making. I get permission from them to talk to their parent about their concerns. And if they say yes, then we go to stage two. If they say no, then I have to taper that and I have to go, okay, well, maybe we could talk about one or two things because they're scared. They're thinking they're gonna get retaliation. So I try to negotiate maybe one or two things that we could start with. Because if we could get this going and I actually have a parent who is safe and who can address these things, then we're gonna be okay and it'll open these safety up for the child, and they'll start asking questions once we get into family therapy. Anyways, I'm going down all these details of things. It's because it's so complicated. It could go so many different ways. I just sit back and I go, I have no idea what's gonna happen next. I'm just gonna take my cues from the child and take in my information from the parents, and let's see what happens. So um, that's the exciting part of it for me. It's like, I don't know what I'm getting when I start a family. And I never try to predict things either. I just react to whatever I'm being given. So then we go to stage two, we have this list, and I go through it and we develop these valid, what's called validation scripts based on emotion-focused family therapy by Adele LaFrance. Not to be confused with Sue Johnson. If any of you know couples therapist Sue Johnson, who passed away a few years ago, bless her heart. She has a great model too, that's attachment, couples attachment. But what this is, is Adele LaFrance's uh child and parent attachment. And we build scripts around the issues that the children have presented. So I'm teaching the parents how to validate their feelings, irregardless of whether they think it happened or not, irregardless of their opinion of the situation. This isn't about being defensive and this is not about correcting the narrative. This is about recognizing your children's feelings because they do have them, even though I've been told by some parents they don't and they're not important, but that's okay, because they obviously didn't get treated nicely when they were kiddos, or they never would have said that. So I teach them that these feelings are important and acknowledging those feelings are important. And the only way you're gonna get a relationship back with your child or to improve your relationship with your child if you have some contact is to create safety. And the way to create safety is to be able to validate their feelings and to repair attachment ruptures, and attachment ruptures are when something goes wrong, the child doesn't feel seen or heard, maybe they got hurt in some way, physically or emotionally, that needs to be addressed and pulled into the light again and apologized for if the apology is necessary and their feelings need to be acknowledged. So that's what we spend stage two in. And again, that's based, my book is based on the parenting classes based on that. So we spend time in that. If I can get a parent to be able to sit with me after a little bit of rebellion in the beginning, because they don't get it or they don't agree or they don't something, if I can get them to understand how important this is and how this is going to build safety for the future, then we do a role play. And if they can actually role play with me, and as if I'm their kid or their kids in the room and I'm watching, and they're able to be sincere and they really I feel like they get it, then we do family therapy. So you can hear there's like all these different, well, you may not be able to hear it, but I I hear it. There's these different, different stages of screening I'm doing. Right. And if there is abuse, if there is domestic violence, I do try to get a read on what the parents think of that, especially if it's been proven that it's happened. What do they think of that? Are they making excuses? Oh, well, the kid deserved it. Are they saying stuff like that? If there's any of these red flags I pick up on, we don't even go to family therapy. Because number one reason I am putting the screening tool in is for safety for the children. And that parent has to do their work. This is the parent's job to do the work, not the kids. And that's another thing that's different. So when we get into parent-child therapy, which is not including the second parent, the co-parent, it's just one parent, one child, because that's the relationship that needs to be repaired. I make sure that the child is heard and they're not the ones doing any of the work. Some people think that, you know, here's a parent, here's a child, and the child has to understand the parent's feelings, the parent has to understand the child's feelings. That's not how it works. That's couples therapy. When you've got two equal, power, equal people and equal power to each other is what I meant. When you have a parent, they're up here in power, child's down here in power, you don't try to make the one that's under you understand your feelings. It's the parent up, the person up here in power that needs to understand this person's feelings. So they're the one who have they have to talk, they have to address the feelings, they have to understand the child's world. And that's what the goal of that therapy is. And if we can do that, and if that parent can genuinely show up to the table and do that, most most of the time the kid will respond. It really depends on how long it's been, because sometimes people come to me after, you know, a year, five years, and there's a lot of damage done. So that's difficult to reverse when that's happened, but it does improve things. So there's that stage. And then if I know I'm jumping through these, we do family therapy, we we go through that and we address each of those things, and then new things start coming up because the child starts feeling better and they start feeling safer and they can actually speak when they want to. And I don't mean that they're gonna be rude, I'm just saying that they have a voice, they don't get dismissed, they get to actually expect their parent to understand them. And if their parent doesn't in front of me, then I cue them too. And if they can't do it in front of me, then I excuse the child. Well, I work with the parent again because it's the parents' work. And in this stage, they have a lot of control. They get to say, like where they sit in the room. Some parents have a big problem with that, but it's important because they're being made to come here. Why can't they have some sort of agency in what happens and some control? Where I sit, they get to tell me where I sit, where they sit, where the parent sits. Sometimes I'm on kid chairs, sometimes I'm on a couch between the two, sometimes I'm at my desk. I let them choose and it's really cool. It empowers them, it gives them a little bit of power in their room because they've never felt that. And the other thing I give them is they can leave at any time to go in this other room that I have for them. Not go running out of the building, not go into the waiting room to the other parent, but go into the other room. So they're allowed to emotionally take a break if they're getting overwhelmed. And they don't feel trapped because you don't want a kid in the office that feels trapped. Panic attacks, you're dysregulated, they can't take anything in. So that's the first three stages. The four stages, if everything's going well, which oftentimes it can, then I end up feeling like a fly in the wall. And it's almost like I'm doing a therapeutic supervised visitation thing where I'm just sitting there doing nothing. I'm really not sitting there doing nothing. I'm observing a lot. I their interactions are starting to become more organic. And if I start talking, the child looks over at me and going, Why are you talking? When that starts happening, soon after I start talking about let's go do something outside of here. Why don't you guys go have lunch together? If it's allowed in the case, of course. So, anyway, so that's the four stages. And yeah, it makes me feel like I can track all this stuff. I I've got it, it's very clear to me when we go to the next stage. I tell parents ahead of time what I'm doing. So it's not this big mystery, right? Yeah.

Speaker 7 59:49

So yeah, that was a lot, but that that's it. That's my thing that I do.

Speaker 3 59:55

Yeah. No, I love it. And I I love that you have like the structured, you know, like phases that you do. And I love the empowering of children because I think that that is that's huge because I think that a lot of children, you know, have never felt like they could be empowered, you know, never felt like they got to choose anything. So I think it's huge that, you know, you start that that way. Because again, it allows the child to, you know, kind of let their guard down a little bit and actually like have a conversation, you know, with you and with the parent that maybe they've been, you know, rejecting. So I'm sure that with all of, you know, the work that you've done and all the different families that you've done, I'm sure you've seen, uh, well, actually, I'm not sure. I should ask you, have you seen that there are like patterns, you know, or like certain things that led the child and the parent to become like, you know, for them to start rejecting that parent? Like, is there a common theme or themes that you've seen that have led to this? Because I'm wondering if anyone listening to this is like, man, my kid like will not talk to me since I started this divorce. And, you know, like sometimes I hear, you know, my my ex-spouse is a narcissist and they have turned them against me, you know, and like those have, you know, different implications versus, you know, just maybe the kid just decided to take, you know, one spouse's side instead of the other one. So I'd love to hear kind of what you've what you've uncovered.

Speaker 8 1:01:25

Right. I mean, there's different, it's, it's, it's not black and white. And there is different patterns that I've observed. And I do put that in my book too, the the reasons why a child may be rejecting you. And it could be in part because of your co-parent, that happens. I mean, I mean, people call parental alienation. There's, I think that we need to be a little bit less, everybody's doing parental alienation and everyone's abusing a child. There, it, there's some gray areas in here that people aren't looking at. It's not so black and white. And I think that even if you have a parent who may be looking like they're influencing their child not to see you, there's actually some things that you probably can identify because if you call me up and laid out everything that you've said and done with that child, like the before, like maybe six months to a year before the rejection, I could probably find the thing that you're doing that contributed to it. And that's part of the book is like I really, you know, want parents, and I'll explain this in a second, to understand that yeah, it it could be partially your co-parent, but I bet you you've done something to contribute to. Because if if they've shown up a lot of times when parents feel like the other parents against them, and I'm not saying parents over here, they're co-parents against them, pulling the child away. There's so many reasons why a co-parent does that that maybe technically meets the criteria for parental alienation, but really isn't purposeful. Okay. So there's a lot of co-parents out there that are anxious and stuff. But, anyways, even if this is going on, if you get frustrated, and this is a pattern I see, is that the parent over here that's feeling rejected, that's feeling a kid pulling away, that's stopping seeing them on their visitation time, limits them to like a dinner, isn't going overnights, and that progression that starts to happen before the full rejection happens, a lot of times there is a progression into it. The parent over here that's feeling rejected, that's feeling like their child's being pulled away, oftentimes will do all kinds of tactical things to get their kid back. One of them could be hey, you know, if you want your Christmas presents this year, you'll come over during the time. Or you want your birthday presents, or I'm gonna keep your birthday presents so you come over here. So they're not really taking things away. They're just trying to get the, you know, lure them in. Like they're desperate. They want their kids and they don't know why it's happening, they don't know what's going on. That's something that they do. And what that actually does is push them away more, but they don't understand that. Because they think they're entitled to their children. Yes, those are their children. They're technically children are children are entitled to a healthy relationship with both parents. Yes, that's true. And you can't coerce them into coming to you. You can't manipulate them because if you do that, they know it and they're gonna feel threatened by it and they're gonna stay away from you. Now they have a real reason. If they thought they had a reason before that maybe was a made-up reason, or maybe it was some other reason in their head or their other parents, uh, the co-parent's head, you have now put cement on that, and now they're not gonna see you because of your behavior. So I'll see the coercive stuff, I'll see the threats, you know. I've seen people empty bank accounts and say, I'm taking your savings away. I've seen people, you have to be respectful in me, and they get loud and they they get really forceful in their language and their tone changes and they get a little scary. And they do things like that. So when they're like that, I challenge anyone who's who has a kiddo that's not willing to see them to look back and go, okay, how have I been in the last times that I was interacting with my child? How was I really? Really take an honest look at what you've been and what you've done around them. Did I scream at my co-parent in front of my kid? Did I slam a door because I was upset? These are things that scare children and they feel threatened by them. Even if you got provoked by your co-parent who may have said something under their breath, may have sent you a nasty ground text or something on a co-parenting app that really upset you or did something in court, and you come at the next transition and scream at them for it, and you do it in front of your child, that's going to cause a rejection. And that's a real reason to be rejected because that scares the crap out of them and they want to stay with a safe parent. So those are things that some of the things that parents do that they don't even think about because they're in reaction to the situation they're in and they're in reaction to the co parent. And frankly, a lot of parents I meet aren't monsters. Some people call them monsters, they're not. They're they're normal people like you and me who got put into an extraordinarily stressful situation and a feeling where they were losing their kid and they start acting in ways they have never acted in their entire life. They turn into different people. Yeah. And I don't blame them. So that's one thing that happens for a reason. And the other reasons are reasons the kids have, reasons the situation, and the reasons the co-parent actually helps to push along. If you want me to go on those, I'm happy to go into some of those. So many things.

Speaker 3 1:06:34

No, I just think this is so fascinating because, you know, as you're like, as you're talking about stuff, and you know, I'm thinking back to, you know, my own personal experience, and I'm also thinking about like clients, and and it is, it's so easy to get triggered by that other co-parent. They can send you, you know, the most condescending text message or condescending email, or they say something really, you know, shitty under their breath. And, you know, like it can, it can send you spiraling. And I get it because, you know, I've gotten to that point sometimes where I'm just like, ugh, you know, I've been able to hold it in in front of my child, you know, but I also have just really wanted to just, you know, lose, lose my shit on them, you know. So like, so I I get exactly like what you're talking about. And it does, you know, take a level of, you know, calmness to really just go,

Coercion And Reactivity That Backfires

Speaker 3 1:07:30

okay, you know what? I can feel how I feel, but guess what? Like this is about my child. So that that will stay over here in this compartment. And this right here is just my interaction with you, with our child, and that's it.

Speaker 8 1:07:42

And it's hard to be regulated. That's the whole point that I bring in there too. That when you're in a divorce, in a high custody, high, high custody, high contested divorce where it's a lot of stress, then this is trauma. This is this is trauma. You've got a system that's broken. You've got, you may have an attorney that's acting like you feel and acting out their own personal stuff with their past divorce or their issues around divorce or their childhood. And it's dysregulating. This this is just a thing. The system just goes in and messes up families. And I can honestly say that because I sit there and watch it every day. So it's hard to regulate. And I think one of the big things, like I talk about again, I don't mean to keep talking about the book. I'm like looking at it, going, it's right there in that chapter, about regulating yourself. If you could find a way to get regulated so your co-parent isn't triggering, triggering you, so the situation isn't triggering you. It could be anybody that could trigger you. A judge could just decide to side with your co-parent and do the opposite of what you think is right, or something like that. Or, or you've got an attorney that's not very empathetic to your situation and takes off and does this whole big declaration without telling you, and you don't even read it because you think that they did the declaration, declaration the way you wanted them to. And then there's all this inflammatory things, and they're starting a bigger fight with your co-parent. I've seen that happen too. So there's so many things that can beat you down and make you feel like you're completely out of control. You're right. The system's in control. Once you get in that system, it takes off. And unless you have a good judge with an honest, good attorney that's regulated themselves, you're gonna have a really hard time in the system. So I don't blame parents for getting in that space. I'm just saying, either. I'm just saying, man, if you could regulate yourself so you're not reactive, you know, and the camera, the cameras, the phone cameras like they go at you in a transition. If that starts happening, don't react to it, right? Just call your attorney. Report it. It's illegal unless the judge told you to do it. But don't start a fight over things like that because then you do that in front of the kid, and then that's really hard. But yeah, so many things people don't think about because you're just being human. You're in an inhuman situation being human, and then you get punished for it if the kid gets exposed to it. And they this shouldn't even be getting to this point. I think that divorce should be transactional and it should not be in court. It's this isn't criminal court, this isn't CPS, this isn't civil court where we're doing a lawsuit with that. We don't need to have a jury, which we don't have, but we don't need to have all this judgment and stuff, unless there's real stuff going on, like domestic violence and child abuse, then kick those up to the courts that deal with that stuff. But that's just my opinion.

Speaker 3 1:10:28

Yeah. Then have this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And I I love that you have taken the approach that you have, because I think that, you know, yes, there's a lot of like, you know, family therapists out there, there's a lot of children therapists out there, but you know, there's not a lot of, you know, at least that I know of, of people that are really looking at it, you know, kind of from the lens that you are and empowering the child. I love that you created that book. You know, it's it clearly has so many resources in it. So I will definitely make sure that there is a link in, you know, in the show notes so anyone can find it. Because I think that, you know, if somebody is listening and they're like, oh my gosh, like I, you know, that like this is really resonating with me. You know, I love that there is that resource out there because I just think, you know, knowledge is power. And the more, you know, knowledge you can get, the more powerful you are for yourself. I also love the fact that you talk about being regulated because I think that's one of the things that isn't talked about enough, you know, just when you're going through the divorce, you know, it's a lot of the reason why I created Thrive and Decide is because, you know, when you're going through the divorce, you are so lost in emotion that you're not thinking about, you know, how like all the things. You're not thinking about, I need to change my beneficiaries, I need to, you know, figure out what I'm gonna do with the house. I need to figure out, you know, like just you're not thinking about all those things. You're just thinking about the loss that you, that you had. And so it takes a while to get regulated and to be able to, you know, keep those emotions at bay so that you do keep that, you know, child at the forefront of everything. And, you know, it's like I always say, like, divorce isn't fair. Nothing about divorce is fair. There's not one thing about it. You can't split children in half. You can't, you know, you can't split a house in half. Like, you know, there's like there's just a lot of things that there's that it's not fair. So I love, again, that you're going through this and helping because I think that, you know, it's a topic that people don't, they don't talk about. And, you know, there are a lot of parents out there that are feeling rejected by their kids and, you know, maybe they don't realize, you know, why. And I love the fact too that you're basically like, put a mirror up. Like, yes, your spouse could be the one that is triggering you, but like look in the mirror and see why is that triggering you? And how can you keep it from triggering you? And I know that sounds so hard. Like when you're in the middle of it, trust me, I get it. But if you can like really like step back, do whatever it is that regulates you, taking a walk, putting your feet in grass, like taking a shower, like any of the things that ground you, you know, you're gonna find it so much easier to move through because you're not gonna no longer be worried about it's not fair. You're gonna be more worried about like, okay, how do we just get through this and focus on our kids?

Speaker 8 1:13:19

Right, right. And focusing on the kids is the big thing that doesn't happen because when we're dysregulated as parents, then when anybody's dysregulated, you're not thinking of other people. You're trying to calm your system down, you're trying to fight for yourself. And it isn't that we're selfish or narcissistic or anything like that. I'm not saying that. It's just that's just the nature of being dysregulated. Your frontal lobe, your right and left brains as a train is off the track. It's not working. That's your way to problem solve and reason through things. When you're got your amygdala or your lizard brain or whatever, fight or flight, however you look at it, brain going, that's all it's focused on. You're in a burning building, and how can you get out of it? That's it. And that doesn't mean it's it's your fault. It doesn't mean there's a fault in your personality either. The family law system, as it's designed right now, is set up to dysregulate everybody and it, including a judge. I have haven't seen very many that are too, they seem calm, but they're confused. Nothing against judges. Attorneys, likewise, they're going in fight, fight, fight. Most of them, I mean, that's all dysregulated. And and it's just, I don't know, it's so messy. How could you not? The most reasonable person that had the best upbringing can step into a divorce and and become someone different. It's just really, really hard. So I think there's a lot of shame when things make people make mistakes, and they need to realize that they're in a system that's set up to make them make those mistakes. And it's not that there's this evil entity creating this thing. It's just the nature of the system. And so they need to give themselves grace because that's the only way you're gonna regulate yourself again, is give yourself grace and not spiral into a shame, blame, spiral if you can. And if you can't, do that on your own. Go seek some help. Go get a coach, go get a therapist, do something to help ground yourself because you don't have to be so reactive in this. You don't have to. It's easy to be, but you don't have to, right? Yeah. And as far as like I'm thinking about, sorry, I'm getting over a cold. You're okay. And my voice goes once in a while. Um, about children and what can we do to help if you can we talk about that? What can we do to help them get through divorce more successfully so they don't go repeating patterns? Number one, later on in their own relationships, and number two, that they're not falling apart.

unknown 1:15:46

Yeah.

Speaker 8 1:15:47

How can you tell if a kid's starting to fall apart? I'm gonna start with that because that's the first thing I look at. How's their sleep? Has their sleep changed? How's their eating? Has their eating changed? These are two basic things. Are the grades slipping? Are the grades getting alarmingly better? That's also another sign, honestly. Are they withdrawn for their friends? Are they going into the room and spending more time alone? I would pay attention to that stuff because that's a sign of functioning. And if they're saying, hey, I don't want to play football anymore, I don't want to go to dance, I'm, you know, this has been too much, you know, maybe after you two figure out where we're living, I'll do it again. Now, the best thing to do for kids, and if they're doing that, you want to try to get them more engaged

Helping Kids Cope With Divorce

Speaker 8 1:16:30

with their peers. You want to get them involved in activities. You want their day-to-day activities to remain the same. I see parents make this mistake, and I will call it a mistake, and they yank kids out of soccer, football, gymnastics, dance, whatever, right when the divorce starts because they can't afford it or they don't have time to transport. Oh, that's the worst thing you could do because kids need consistency. I mean, there's so much literature, like through trauma exposure, like you know, when we were having the fires out here, we there's a whole these studies and stuff on these kids. The best thing you can do, and when they brought counselors into these schools when we were having fires and they were trying to counsel them and the parents, like, keep their routines the same. So try to keep the routines the same. If you used to make pancakes on Sunday, keep making those pancakes on Sunday. Even if you have to make them ahead of time and heating them up in the microwave, do that. If they were in soccer, keep them in soccer if you can. I mean, usually we pay ahead of time for things like that. Don't make major changes like that. If they got to go to grandma's on Saturday night to go make cookies with them, I don't know why I'm thinking of baking. I guess I was baking the other day. Or go and whatever they do with grandma or grandpa or whatever, or an aunt and uncle, don't change those things because they need to have consistency. That's like an easy, low-hanging fruit you can do. Keep that if you're able, right? You have a co-parent. So sometimes co-parents don't get along in the beginning, especially. Maybe it can't happen, but of all the things you can do is try to keep it consistent and the same. And the other thing is, is kids are way more aware than you think they are. Don't have phone calls in your house when they're there. If you need to have a phone call with a friend or an attorney or a therapist or somebody, do it outside the house where they cannot hear you for sure. Go for a walk if you can, if your kids are old enough. Don't let them hear that. Or better yet, wait until they're in school. They're not in the house. I guarantee you, if you think they're sleeping, they're not. If you're having a conversation about this divorce, they are at their door listening, or they're at the top of the stairs, or they're at the end of the hallway, whatever your configuration of your living situation is. I can't even tell you how many kids, but the majority of them are listening. And they're they're little sleuths and they're like little Sherlock Holmes, and they're trying to figure out what mom and dad are doing, or dad and dad, or mom and mom are doing, whatever the configuration is, they're trying to figure it out. And so they're listening and they're paying attention and they're picking up on these little things. You take them to a park and you're talking to a friend on the phone. You better make sure you're you're not within hearing distance because they'll hear you. So try to block exposure to court documents and court phone calls. Don't even tell them the court exists, would be my preference. And not that there's a court date happening ever if they know court exists. Because sometimes kids are represented by minors counsel or child's counsel, whatever they're called in your particular area. So they know court exists, but they don't need to know when the court date is because that's guess what happens? They get anxious. Yeah, they're just stressed about it, totally stressed about it. And now you've just put your child in the middle of an adult battle that they shouldn't have anything to do with. They need to just live their life peacefully as if this is happening over here and they're over here. And let's try to keep it separate. So if there's any way, and even if you've already started exposing things to them, if you could just stop, you probably will see a decrease in anxiety and acting out or whatever it is that's going on with your child if you can just stop exposing them to court stuff. And the other thing is the predictability of going back and forth between parents. What I recommend, even for teenagers, is having a calendar in each house and putting on there when they're going to be a dad or mom's house. And you have stickers for each of them. If they're teenagers, you could just have them write the names so they can see it. For littles, even four-year-olds or three-year-olds, have them pick out stickers. You help them put them up on the days that they're supposed to see the other parent or you, and then help them cross the days off as they go. They don't need to know how to read a calendar for this to work. But you know what this does? This makes them feel like they know what's going to happen next in their lives. Like they don't need to know about court, but this is day-to-day life stuff. So they know what's going to happen next. So it's not just this thing happening to them that's out of their control. And that's partially why kids act out during a divorce, is they they aren't being informed of the things they do need to know, and they're being informed of the things they should never know. Yeah. So that's very helpful. Sit down and talk to them. If you're about to get a divorce and you haven't gotten one, then find out how to sit with them with a book. There's so many cool books, and I wonder if I have any of these in my bookshelf right now. Like Coco Bear, it's not your fault. That's one, two homes. And I'm I'm sorry, I'm gonna look off for a second. I love this. I have a few books. I mean, here's one. When my parents forgot how to be friends, sometimes this doesn't apply.

unknown 1:21:41

Yeah.

Speaker 8 1:21:43

Jennifer Moramalanos. I may have said her name on. But this is a nice one. Another one is two homes, which is really good. Coco Bear, it's not your fault. I don't have those books with me, but I use those in my practice because it sort of walks it through. Because again, kids take responsibility for a divorce. They think it's their fault. A lot of them do. They may never ever say it, right? But they do. So you want to try to like preempt that. And if you're gonna explain that a divorce is gonna happen, Cocoa Bear, it's not your fault. If you have like a preteen or younger, that is such a beautiful book because one, it's it's gender neutral. Two, you could talk about how both parents love that that bear, but it's got they did nothing. It's not your fault part. And it's such a beautiful book, it's just an easy ready book. So it sort of shows a kid in a preschool, but it applies to anybody. There's just things like that you could do to just sit down and acknowledge it. And the the message they need to get, even if you don't use a book, is hey, we're gonna be splitting up homes. And if you can say this, if it applies, we don't love each other, we're not gonna be with each other anymore, but we love you and care for you, and you're always gonna be well taken care of. One of us will always be with you at any time. We're gonna be doing things a little different. We'll explain that later, but we're we want to let you know because when you just get a divorce and start splitting up, and the kids are like, what is going on? Why did dad or mom move out? I mean, that that's just too hard on them, right? So letting them have some awareness, label to what's going on is a good thing. And I know some people are like, oh, we're always gonna love each other. Great, then don't say that, say something different. Yeah. You know, I've had people do that. I'm like, it's cool, that's cool. This is just an example of what I do with kids. It and if parents need it, they can get a therapist to do that with them. Like I do that with parents too. I offer that. So letting them know that and keeping them in the regular schedule and not exposing them, that all that stuff will go a long way. And if you see other things happening, they're eating, sleeping, school performance, social engagement starts changing, then it might be time to get a therapist for them. But they don't automatically need a therapist just because you're going through a divorce.

Speaker 4 1:23:58

Yeah.

Speaker 8 1:23:58

Because it's not, they're not the problem.

unknown 1:24:00

Right.

Speaker 8 1:24:01

It's not the problem. They're just reacting to the family splitting up. That's all it is.

Speaker 3 1:24:05

Yeah. No, I love that. And I love your approach, and and I love that you say, you know, because I think that sometimes, you know, parents do they're they're well meaning, but they're like, well, I'm in therapy. They need to be in therapy, you know, they like they need to work through this. And it's like, well, I mean, maybe, but maybe not. Maybe they could, you know, just like if you're just supporting them and, you know, in the ways that you've just like, you know, given as examples, then they wouldn't actually need, you know, any further, you know, therapy. Although I think everyone needs therapy at, you know, some point in their life.

Speaker 8 1:24:39

Yeah. But I mean, kids just don't automatically know need need it because of a divorce. I think that the majority of the kids I see when they get put into therapy, the reason why they're in therapy is because their parents have withdrawn and there's they're not paying attention to their kid as much. There's fighting they're exposed to. There's something within the family that's happening. So they're they're reacting to something. It isn't that they have an issue they need to work through. What really would be better in these situations, and you're right, I think everyone should have therapy eventually, but the young kids don't necessarily need it because if their parents were grounded and they were focused on what the child needs, the child wouldn't even feel the pain of the divorce.

Speaker 4 1:25:20

Yeah.

Speaker 8 1:25:21

So the the therapy sometimes serves as a band-aid for something that needs to be happening at home. And I find myself working more with parents if I'm seeing a child individually than I do with the child itself. Because, you know, it's it's it's more of a reaction to their situation that's out of their control. Yeah. And do kids develop some sort of diagnosis that's because of everything? Sure, that happens. There's PDSD and some kids come wired with ADHD sometimes and other things that happen, but you know, a lot of it's reactivity, anyways, right? And therapy is a great place for them to process it and have a safe space if they have two parents that can't regulate. I'm just saying that if we could get the parents to get their stuff together and to get regulated, we wouldn't need so much therapy for kids in divorce. That's all. Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:26:09

Nope. I totally agree. I agree. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. You have given so many good nuggets. Hopefully, everyone, you know, listening has, you know, really received some of this information and it's been really helpful. Like I said, I will absolutely have a link to your book, you know, in the show notes and any other resources, you know, that you would like to put out there. I know you mentioned you can only counsel people in California. So if anyone listening is in California, you know, and is looking for someone, definitely look for Kathy Hemlin and she can take care of you. But if you're not in California, that book is a great resource. Anything else you want to add?

Speaker 8 1:26:49

I actually have a consultation business. That's how I do parenting support across the country. So it's called Hemlinconsulting.com. So Hemlinconsulting.com, I said that so fast. And that's where I can actually support parents. And I have a parenting class through there, and I can't do therapy, but I am a coach, a parenting coach for high conflict divorce. So

Resources, Consulting, And Closing Ask

Speaker 8 1:27:10

yeah.

Speaker 3 1:27:11

Perfect. I love that. These are such great resources. I'm gonna make sure that all of those are linked. And I'm sure that uh there's plenty more that we could discuss. So hopefully, you know, I can get you back on the show again another time.

Speaker 1:27:23

Okay, thank you.

Speaker 3 1:27:24

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. And thanks for tuning in. Make sure that you leave feedback because that is the greatest gift that you can give. A five star review obviously is very much appreciated. And uh make sure that you're sharing this with others because again, knowledge is power. So share this with others and make sure you're following the show so you never miss an episode. Thanks so much, and we'll see you next time on Thrive and Decide Guide to Divorce.