Women Get This Wrong About Their Safety - Ex-NZSASF Damian Porter Breaks It Down.

In this episode of the Nurse Ratchet Podcast, I sit down with an ex–New Zealand Special Forces expert to break down how women really get targeted — and what most people get completely wrong about “fighting back.”

Some of what he said honestly surprised me… and might change how you think about personal safety.

This isn’t about fear — it’s about awareness.

🎧 Full conversation now live.

👇 What do you think about this take AND our NEW THEME SONG!? Let me know in the comments.

Follow Damian Porter aka "How Not To Die Guy" on insta and YouTube! 

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/hownottodieguy?igsh=MTZ5cGoxMWt4ZDZodg==

YT: https://youtube.com/@damianporterhownottodieguy?si=wvMAH-4FTbbZ9H8B

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to North Russian Podcast. And again, my name is George, and today we have a shit. Where decisions aren't just high pressure, they're life or death. Damien Porter, also known as How Not to Die Guy, comes from a background in New Zealand Special Forces, especially within a counter-terrorism and hostage rescue unit. Correct me if I'm wrong in any of this, okay? That means years of training and operating in situations where awareness, speed, decision making aren't optional. They're everything. After his time in the military, he transitioned into law enforcement here in Australia as a police officer. Much respect to you for that. Working on the front line of real-world danger. He's also served as a firefighter and has spent decades in the health and fitness space, which is so iconic. So his understanding of the human body stress and performance goes far beyond just theory. And I can relate to that last part, but not the rest of it. Across all of that, there's a common thread, exposure to what actually happens when things go wrong. And now that's exactly what you teach. Throughout his platform, How Not to Die, I love the name, by the way. Damien has taken everything he's learned from special forces, policing, and emergency response and stripped it down into practical real-world skills that everyday people can actually use. Not martial arts, not theory, just something that takes years to learn. So without further ado, can I introduce Damien? How are you?

Speaker 2:07

Thank you, George. I'm well. That was an amazing uh intro. Gosh, um, that's the best intro I've ever had.

unknown 2:12

Okay.

Speaker 1 2:13

Well, thank you, AI. You know, I like to keep it easy around here. I don't make things complicated for

Speaker 2:19

No, well done. That's gosh. And the way you're saying that, it reminded me of why I started How Not to Die a guy. And I was interviewed on a show the other day in the USA, and he asked me sort of how it started, and I didn't give the correct answer. The the original reason I started How Not to Die Guy was my partner at the time, she realized that the things I do that are absolutely normal to me, other people don't even consider.

Speaker 1 2:43

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:44

It's like up here, they won't think to lock the door of their car, they won't think to have a torch when we go outside. These are boots beside the bed with a phone and a torch and and maybe something else in them. They don't think of those things, but for me, it's normal, it's not hypervigilance. And and um, I just realized, hey, I've I've got to teach this stuff to to people that need it because it's super easy to do, and it's not John Wick. So anybody can can use those things.

Speaker 1 3:10

Yeah. So you contacted me over Instagram. Let's tell the listeners how this occurred. I did a video and I wanted to tell that story too, if that's okay, just for context. Long story short, um, I was out after work, I was walking to my car, I was offered a lift by my colleague, which I should have taken. Um, and it was around 11 at night in East Melbourne, and I walked to my car, I had my bag, and I walked past a a woman who was um standing at the lights just a little bit down, but she did look at me over her shoulder as I walked past, and I looked at her, like noticed each other. And so I walked to my car, I got in, I locked the doors immediately, all four. Um, and then immediately she was trying to get into my passenger side, and my purse was there. I did see a comment on my Instagram story that said women often went and put their purses in their passenger side seat. And I I had, and I did have a yeah, a purse with me as well.

Speaker 4:12

So so do I, by the way, with my main bag if I'm putting my bag on it. It goes there, but I've locked the door too, so great, good job, you.

Speaker 1 4:20

Let me guess. Is it brown leather?

Speaker 4:24

No, it's it's tactical green. I'm looking at it right now.

Speaker 1 4:28

Tactical green. Oh, obviously. Obviously. I should have guessed that. Anyway, she uh tried the handle, and then when she noticed I was looking at her, going, What are you doing? She said, Uh, can you help me? And I said, Yeah, what do you need? But I wasn't going to unlock anything. Um, and then she said it again, and I said it repeated myself, and then she walked away. And I forgot to mention this in the video. As I walked, as they walked away, she met someone, and and and it was a man, and they walked around the corner, and I was just so shocked and freaked out because that's never happened to me in Melbourne. And I did say I've always thought that it was a pretty relatively on the scale of dangerous cities in the world, a safe city, but my comment section said otherwise. And you popped into my Instagrams, uh DMs and suggested we jump on for a chat. And here we are.

Speaker 5:20

It's a great way to connect. And it's uh I I interviewed actually, she was an Australian um woman um who's uh physio-based in the States now. It's the it's the good side of social media, uh, I think you know, the our ability to connect across cities, across one of the biggest countries in the world. I'm from Perth, you're from Melbourne, and we get to help other people.

Speaker 1 5:38

Yeah, that's right. I'm excited about it. You're my first guest who is not my family or my friend, so but we could be friends afterwards.

Speaker 5:47

Um can I just on your experience? Um and when I teach people in person, which I don't so much anymore, most of it's online with uh a lot of the lessons and classes. The first thing I say to you is, well done, Georgia. You are safe. Thank you very much. Yeah, you're safe and you won. And those two things are facts. You didn't get hurt and you won because you didn't get um robbed or or or hurt or worse. However, we can clearly see there may be things that you could do differently next time that would make you uh even less of a target or even handle the situation better. So the first thing is great job. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 6:27

And I was very happy with myself, but I also immediately thought of all the times that I didn't lock the door, and I was like, what if it was that time? So you teach self-defense, yes?

Speaker 6:38

I do. I've been teaching uh unarmed combat and self-defense for 26 years now, based on the um things we learned in the military, which is we're not very smart people in the military, we don't have a lot of time to train, and we have to go and do really hard things under high pressure, like you said. So it can't be fancy. And in fact, uh, even in the special forces, our unarmed combat course is about five or six days long. And do you know what? Women exactly like you, a nurse, her name was Nancy Wake, she was a Kiwi living in Australia, in World War II, she had six 45-minute lessons before she went behind enemy lines in France and killed Nazis with her bare hands.

Speaker 1 7:18

Wow, that's amazing. Something to live up to. So you teach um people how not to die, which is iconic. Um, very necessary. And I feel given the abundance of case subjects for this podcast, my audience is gonna love this. So, um, from your experience in the military to police to what you do now, you've seen what actually happens when things go wrong and unique ways people get themselves in trouble. Could you, you know, describe some of those ways for us?

Speaker 7:48

Yeah, sure. Um, one is the exact one you had. Um person that you had uh at your door, if she opened the door, you're gonna meet her and her friend that you didn't know about.

Speaker 2 7:58

Yes.

Speaker 7:59

And then when it didn't work with her plan, because bad guys, and she was a girl, it doesn't matter, we'll call them bad guys, they don't want trouble and they don't want to get in trouble. They don't often plan for my, they're not too smart either, like our soldiers. Um she said, Oh, can you help me? And she had no other file in her brain apart from repeating herself. But you also had a bit of mirror neurons going on and a lot of a high stress. So you wouldn't have a thought process that was the same as when you were under high stress as a nurse. Yeah, and that comes through rehearsals. Yeah. But what I see often um in that situation um with a male is a guy will do a come on. Have you got some money? Can I have a cigarette? What's the time? Whatever. But around the corner is seven of his um, and what I saw in police was aboriginal young mates, and they and they come in and stove that guy in. Um I've seen it happen with females um uh as well. Um, and often that those stranger ones tend to sexual assault, but it's rare that it's a stranger with with females unless it's um uh unless they're predatory.

Speaker 1 9:04

So I guess the question really is are people as safe as they think they are?

Speaker 9:08

Great question, and that comes on from what you experienced and I want to touch on Melbourne. Um I'm I'm actually doing an Instagram reel about um how to win against a machete. Where they started was in Byron Bay about three years ago. I don't know if you saw a video, it was a quite a viral video. This guy walks up to this car and it's two females inside, and he taps the window with a machete in Byron Bay. Or Deception Bay, maybe the news accounts would said different places. Long story short, those women locked their car. Well done them. I've got an American video where that happened, a road rage guy gets out the machete, I think it was last week. But there's another one where the guy actually opened the door and had a machete because the guy hadn't locked his door. Um, so you know, you're talking about America and in our brains, we think America is a big, bad place, and it's probably maybe safer than than many others, but it doesn't matter where you are, you know, that Byron Bay to me is a fairly safe place. Uh been there is beautiful, nice people.

Speaker 3 10:04

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 10:04

Um, and that happened, it's it pops up when you least expect it, Georgia. And the I say first aid and self-defense are the same. I I don't know how many car crashes you've come across in your civilian car.

Speaker 1 10:18

Uh a couple.

Speaker 10:19

Yeah, so you come across a couple, right? And you know you know first aid and you have higher medical training. It's not so much, it's not so bad. You can figure it out. But it was a shock.

unknown 10:29

Yes.

Speaker 10:29

Now, when I come across a crash, there's still a shock. When I go to a crash in the fire brigade, where I go to a fight as a police officer, I'm prepared. Yes. And when it's in your own car, you're on the back foot, you're trying to figure out what's happening. So no matter how prepared you are, there's still a catch-up time. And that's where training or at least exposure, I mean, the people listening to this know to lock your car door. Do central locking thing that Georgia said.

Speaker 1 10:53

Yes, that's a great start.

Speaker 10:55

And that gets you ahead. But if you hadn't locked it, so these two girls with a machete in Byron Bay, um, they said, Lock the door, lock the door. So can you imagine how hard it is to do fine motor control of find where it is and lock the door?

Speaker 1 11:07

Yeah, I always think about um the scenes in movies where you are you see them running from the murderer and they're just walking. And they can't get into the door. Trying to undo. And I just know that would be me. I know that would be me. I wouldn't be able to get the key in the lock and I'd be freaking out. And it's the panic that kills people, really, isn't it?

Speaker 11:29

Not just you, um, it's anybody on there was a study done on SWAT officers. So SWAT guys are in the States, they're they're high um operators, they're um they're trained under pressure and all this stuff. But you ask a SWAT operator after he does um explosive entry and go in a house and shoot all the targets to dial 911. He can't or write something because he hasn't done fine motor controls. He used to trigger stuff, used to um other things that he's done in his job. Because he hasn't practiced that skill, this study showed they don't have that fine motor control unless it was trained. So all it is is exposure. That's why I do the I do, and that's why I loved your video. Your video in your words, the way you so well uh presented it, was hey, lock your damn doors, and how about you take the ride from that guy who said he'd give you a ride that's a friend. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 12:16

Um, so it so it's a lack of awareness then instead of uh overconfidence, do you think?

Speaker 12:23

Overconfidence is one, but I like to call that uh lack of options. So your awareness was there was a uh I'm I'm gonna keep using your example to as a female, but the vibe you gave off made her choose you as a target. Yeah, you because you air quotes looked at her, all the air quotes experts say look them in the eye. Well, that's total bullshit for a start.

Speaker 2 12:47

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 12:48

You looked at her and that didn't work. You locked the door, so great job. Like I said, you won and you're safe, but how about two things? One, don't talk to strangers. So you talked, and two, how about you drive away?

Speaker 2 13:03

Yes immediately.

Speaker 13:05

Yes, yeah, I was told to be like, and if she's got the machete, because we said we talked about three different machete attacks over um three years. If she's got the machete, drive away. She might be in front of you.

Speaker 1 13:15

Yes. Yeah, I thought I guess my thought, I think I fight sort of fight, flighted, or freezed, and I freezed, you know, but I still, you know, tr tried to help her because that's in my nature, I suppose.

Speaker 13:27

But at the end of the day, I didn't with the other F though, Georgia? Freeze? No, there's there's another thing that females do. You fawned.

Speaker 1 13:34

Did I fawn?

Speaker 13:36

Yeah, very normal. Very normal. Well done.

Speaker 1 13:38

I hate that for me because I I like to think of myself as a bit of a fighter, but only if I'm really pushed, and it's usually a dude that can get me there.

Speaker 13:46

There we go. So you've exposed you're exposed to a dude, you're happy to fight a dude, but you're not sure about this this weird female trying to get in your car. So you fawned a little bit. I did. You won't next time, will you?

Speaker 1 13:56

No, no. So I guess what you're saying is even though the doors were locked, I was still in danger.

Speaker 14:02

You were, and it and the answer to your question that you asked me was it's awareness and it's options. So you you're now much more aware of it can be any kind of human. And two, you now know options of uh don't talk to strangers and drive the car away. Now you've got more options that you don't even have to practice. I mean, like I said, it's not John Wick. You can actually go out there and and apply that if it ever happens to you, which hopefully it will never will.

Speaker 1 14:26

Yeah, fingers crossed. So we'll go, we'll move on to another topic now, if that's okay. We'll we'll talk about a bit of situational awareness. Do you teach that?

Speaker 14:35

That's the one of the first things I teach. Great. Um, when we're bodyguarding, and I'm I interviewed the on my show, I interviewed um the head of the bodyguard team um for Kevin Rudd at the time, the Australian Prime Minister.

Speaker 1 14:47

That's amazing.

Speaker 14:48

Um, great guy. Um, and uh interviewed a Secret Service agent last year. He had he was on uh George Bush Senior's team. Do you know what um a bodyguard's job is to do with the um with their client or what they call the principal? Do you know what their main job is?

Speaker 1 15:04

Protect them.

Speaker 15:06

Yeah, by running away. Their job is to run and hide. Maybe you've got to leave one or two guys behind and fight, but their job is to run away. So situation awareness. I don't want Georgia to ever have to be in that situation again because I don't want to have to fight someone and run her over with a car. Maybe look at the legal process and maybe look at the psychological process of that. Just don't be there. I'd love that Georgia goes into a goes to a car, sees a weirdo, and goes back into her friend, says, Yep, I'd like that ride, please. Sounds great. Let's go in your car.

Speaker 1 15:37

Absolutely. Okay. What's something that you clock in public that you see people doing that instantly makes you think that they are a target or are vulnerable?

Speaker 15:46

I saw um I saw it down my alleyway at the back of my uh block of units. There's a an alleyway through there. And these two females are walking towards me. I'm a guy, and I'm I'm I'm I outweigh them by 20 kilos of muscle. And these these females are 25 years old and weigh about 60 kilos. They didn't look at me. They were they were almost actively turning their head to ignore me.

Speaker 3 16:09

Yes.

Speaker 16:09

And they yeah, they they're actively not looking at me, not seeing where I am. And that's the first thing I want you to see it before they see you. I want you to see that girl before she saw you. They put their head down, they put their blinkers on, particularly females. They just they go like this. Uh if I don't see it, it's not gonna hurt me.

Speaker 1 16:27

Yeah, I do understand what you're saying, and I do it myself. It's kind of like I'm not gonna acknowledge a man because I feel as though if I do, um, that's leaving that's kind of opening up my energy towards him. And a lot of the like our experience is fending off guys. And I think maybe, well, for me, that's where it comes from. I don't know if it's uh that's a universal experience. Um, but yeah, we do do that, but and then we put ourselves in danger because of it when we're trying to protect ourselves, really.

Speaker 17:00

You do, and it's it's uh it's really the things women have to do is crazy. You gotta think about where you're gonna walk um at when you're going for a walk at night and run or what are you gonna wear? You shouldn't have to do that, but you you do have to, you shouldn't have to. But it the things like that to your detriment. And where I saw it, um I've been I I tore both both my pecs off um seven weeks ago. So I've been walking around in two slings like this.

Speaker 1 17:26

How did you do it? Do you mind me asking?

Speaker 17:28

Yeah, I was doing an egotistical bench press competition and they both tore off the bone.

Speaker 1 17:34

Okay. Did you win?

Speaker 17:36

No, that's a massive failure.

Speaker 1 17:38

Damn it. Not even worth it.

Speaker 17:40

It was terrible, but I was in these slings, these double slings for seven weeks. And I was I was walking, you know, I can't do my text, so I'm I'm doing lot, lots of nice walks. And I'll be walking past these females, different, different ages, different uh genres, I guess. And the older ones, like around 40, 45, 50, they'll they'll smile nicely. Or you'll get the um the pretend smile, the polite smile.

Speaker 1 18:05

I actually hate you, but here's a smile.

Speaker 18:07

Yeah. The pretend smile. Uh you know, they there's there's sympathy and there was also an acknowledgement. Those two groups of people realized that I couldn't hurt them with my arms and two slings. The arms didn't move.

Speaker 2 18:18

Yes.

Speaker 18:19

Oh my god. What I saw, and it was I was so sad, Georgia. I also saw some of the younger girls at 25 years old not even wanting to look at me in case I was a air quotes threat. And I thought, this is sad. Um, but it is the reality. But um the simple solution for this this five-minute part is if you're anybody walking along towards someone, what you do is you look at their waist. Don't look at their eyes, because I want to catch your eyes. As if I'm a bad guy. Look at their waist and you'll see their hands and you'll see which way they direct their body because they always turn your torso towards something that you turn to. Okay. And you'll see where they are. If you just look at their waist, it means don't catch their eyes if you don't want to. That's the first thing. That's the most tactically correct one. Or you can do what I do, as my sergeant major used to say, be friendly, be polite, but have a plan to keep them meet. Find the judge. I just I just look them in the eyes and say, good morning.

Speaker 3 19:17

Yeah.

Speaker 19:17

And then and then look at their waist. You can actually disarm someone if by saying that. And the the female on a male can do the same thing. Morning, and then head down. They're like, oh, and you've gone past them. You don't have to fend them off as with um, you know, predatory advances. But you gotta you gotta look at the threat, you gotta look at the the person rather than keep your head away.

Speaker 1 19:38

So when someone is being attacked, do you because we're talking about looking, do you think that they often see it coming or if it's the other way?

Speaker 19:48

There's there's two things. The best place for a bad guy is right behind you. You got no prefer vision. And that's happened, and I've done reels on that. There was a woman uh in New York in the Bronx, uh guy came up behind her with a belt at 3 a.m. in the morning, had a belt around her neck, yanked her down, she was unconscious, and he um he had his way with her for four minutes. So majority of people, and I could even ask you the right question, when they've been in a situation that was violent, most of them say, I could feel something was off, but I didn't want to say anything. Something didn't seem right, but I didn't want to be impolite, particularly females. So often they they they ignore their own, as you said earlier, red flags.

Speaker 1 20:33

Yes. I was actually going to touch on that. Your gut instinct. Do you think people are um right? Do you think they should trust their gut?

Speaker 20:42

Absolutely. Females' gut instinct is better than males. Very good. Yes. You you evolved that way because uh that was that was what happened. Um really you should trust it and do not do the oh, he might be okay, or oh, it's probably nothing. You hear a noise at night. Something made the noise. Yeah, here you go, possum. And you find out that it is a possum, or you find out that there's a crackhead at your door, you know.

Speaker 1 21:08

I have a huge bat that lives in my fruit tree, and every time I go outside it takes off and it goes, it freaks out every time I come out. It's like a pet now. Um, and yeah, I always think it's a murderer.

Speaker 21:21

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 21:22

Because I have a true crime podcast, I talk about them all day and night.

Speaker 21:26

I'm sure my age it would turn into count Dracula now.

Speaker 1 21:29

True. In nursing, because I'm a perioperative nurse, so we would have fixed your pecs if you had surgery.

Speaker 21:37

Did you just oh yeah, there's all all the held together by uh bits and pieces on their shoulders now?

Speaker 1 21:43

Yes, yeah, it's a rough operation. Um, so in nursing, we we uh teach that we say proper preparation prevents poor performance. So we always um teach to be prepared for any sort of scenario, and then you can. sort of tackle whatever sort of happens better than you could if you just went in there unprepared. So yeah, and it really is true. I'm good at it now, but back in the day I was just shocking. Um because I've got ADHD so I'm very see something do it. But if I don't, if I'm not looking at it, it does doesn't exist. So it's very when it comes to safety, I guess for a lot of my life, I've just been like la la la la whatever I'm doing this and I'm focused on this thing right now and I'm not actually focused about my surroundings or anything like that. So lately I've been aware and prepared. After my I don't I want you to tell me if this is a good choice or not, I went out and bought a little pocket knife and I've carry it around with me. But it's a box cutter because I know our laws say that we're not allowed to have weapons. If you searched me and found a box cutter in would you say why do you have a box cutter? You're not allowed to carry weapons.

Speaker 23:03

Time, place circumstance and please if you're a uh like for instance over here you're allowed I'll answer your question in a roundabout way. Yeah here um pepper spray is legal to own legal to buy legal to sell may may not be legal to carry depending on time place circumstance. So when I um that's good to know I see uh Georgia at three in the morning um she's walking home she's a bit stumbly and um and she's mouthed off a little bit and I've had a chat to her and she's actually turned out to be quite nice but I still had to search her for some reason and found that pepper spray um and she said oh look it I didn't feel comfortable it's three in the morning going home. I'd say yeah no problem. Yeah however if you're um if you're a 30 year old man at 7 p.m uh no it's 3 p.m um in a chemist with pepper spray and looking like a bad guy maybe I'm gonna confiscate it off you and say you're gonna have to put that to a magistrate your reason for having it. I believe you're in charge you're in a in possession of a weapon. The laws in your state uh regarding blades may be different. It may be considered a weapon in in uh law and the police officer may not have any discretion on it if you're found with that. But the tactical side of me says why have you got that and what are you trying to achieve here's what I tell people to be prepared with. Yeah so I I'll go to your personal circumstances in a second but when someone is a bad guy towards a female I want to if I was a bad guy I'm grabbing you to go do a thing. Either steal something from you or hurt you and and and probably have my way with you. So that's physically grabbing you. All you've got to do is change my mind. I highly suggest a metal pen and my kiwi accent is spelled P-E-N a metal pen oh yes very covert stabbed repeatedly into the human will change his mind I highly suggest that it doesn't require skill yes there's a there was a photograph of two AFP officers at the airport a year ago when they've had taken a woman off a plane and she stabbed them repeatedly and they had had to take two armed officers to bring her down she did a pretty good job with a metal pen and she's probably drunk. So if someone grabs you and you can take that pen out of your waistband and aerate them a little bit they'll let go of you they'll change their mind and you can carry on with your day in a certain way I would suggest with your personal um uh interaction there Georgia so I'll just take my tool off my waistband oh it's one hand one hand open too much we'll get banned so that that's a one hand opening thing I did that with one hand this the other hand over here see mine open with one one hand it may not be so good and and um yeah the box cutter may snap off so going back to the the use of a pen pen it's used for writing it just happens in metal it's just happening to be pointy and stabby as as Carl is a Stefanovich used to say pointy and stabby thing pointy stabby thing exactly it's gonna go quite well so as a cop yeah um in your in your state I'd probably um be having words with you figuring it out yeah but if anybody's listened to this it those things are tools to use and you've got to use the time place circumstance.

Speaker 1 26:23

Time place circumstance yeah that's that's very true for for all things really well you've had so much tactical experience and I was just wondering like do you ever switch off? Like are you ever taking a break or are you always aware and assessing the environment?

Speaker 26:40

I think the best analogy I can give is is like you with nursing you don't walk around diagnosing everybody but you're sure as hell take a look if something doesn't look right oh that person's got a sling on that person's limping or that person's coughing that catches your spider sense a little bit. Absolutely a cough I'm sure as hell I'm I'm chilled as we go around but when I'm walking past the crackhead um that's uh sleeping on the street I'm a bit more I I just step up a level and yeah we we have this uh it's called Cooper's color code but basically condition white is you and me right now I totally chilled maybe I'm a little bit yellow I've got an open window here I'm aware of people that may or may walk into the complex it goes yellow orange red and black black is you've blacked out you're in the you're in the fight it's gone mental red is you're in the fight orange is pretty aware and and yellow is just a a little state of awareness so I would suggest that I'm in that yellow state most of the time and it just flickers up and down but I can switch it off quite easily once I realise I just go yep weird guy there strange person over there normal person there and this way's clear yep done and then you just have those senses around you and I suppose women have that a little bit we are always aware of who are who is around especially men um but it's it's knowing how to defend yourself if that moment arise our our main weapon is to flee before anything happens really if you I hope that you can outrun him yeah I'm serious yeah yeah I know that's it's the reality that we live with um your car outruns him yeah yes true and and now we know it's it's not always a him it's a it's is often a herd yes so okay what are some tips on how to stay safe just basic everyday tips first one what doesn't look right um my partner and I were driving uh to her work this morning tri trailing on a two-lane road and um in the left hand lane was a car and it looked like two people were standing at the back of the car. That looks a bit weird their car was broken down they were actually sitting in the tower gate. Absolutely not not for me call call call a toe guy exactly they've done the wrong thing but it just looked weird. If and that's the first thing well it just looks a bit weird. Oh that guy's acting a bit weird or that person's walking funny and then take action so you've identified it and then take action do you need to take action maybe just cross the street maybe um turn around but take some kind of action if you stick your head in the sand and say oh I'll just won't look at those people that's not a good idea.

Speaker 1 29:23

Not a good idea.

Speaker 29:24

If you look at someone in the eye like oh I'm not a threat and that those people look at you they're good at this stuff. Yeah they're good at the talking they're good at that they're good at identifying prey they know if you're if you're bullshitting them um no look at them maybe if you if you looked in the eye and realized don't look in the eye and look at their waist you can see what they're doing the whole time you see the hands hands hold things that hurt you and you see their waste. If you wanted to you could say good morning or good afternoon or whatever you want to say using my sergeant major's analogy of be friendly be polite and have a plan to kill everyone you meet my suggestion as someone untrained is just look at shut your damn mouth and look at the waste because your voice will crack you won't know what to do you haven't practiced it. Look at the waste and then walk on past them if you don't like it the look of them go inside the shop go back the way you can you you're at your car getting up and there's a weird guy two cars down or a guy walking across close the doors if you really don't like it drive to another car park or go for a a drive around the block. Don't put yourself in a worse situation because you ignored a red flag.

Speaker 1 30:30

So our best bet is to avoid at all costs.

Speaker 30:34

You're a strong confident woman I can see this but when you had your your boy you told me you had uh uh uh uh two two kids but one's a bit older but when your boy is five years old or three you're gonna avoid everything aren't you yeah then why not do the same thing for yourself?

Speaker 1 30:49

Yeah that's so true. So um I was going to say in the context of our uh real world right now there's a lot of um terrorism the Bondi incident going on and things like that in in scenarios such as concerts events what what should we be doing?

Speaker 31:06

That's a great question I can answer this because a a good friend of mine actually runs security for um the bands at these events bands that make a million dollars a a night at these these concerts and so the assessment here of um one of the top bands I can't say who it is uh for privacy reasons would have been an Ariander Grande style event maybe that'd be the worst case what you could do is know where the exits are because if you've only come in one way that's the only way you're gonna know and probably 10,000 other people are going to know out. Figure out the vibe of the whole place and um and and just be clever about what being aware of the situation around you. If everybody's running one way they'll be running away from danger maybe you can go to a different exit. But terrorism I mean Bondoy shooter versus Bondo knife guy the Bondo knife guy was horrendous I I thought didn't have as high a body count but that's a horrible way to kill people I mean it is um uh he was a perfect example of a bad guy didn't want to get in trouble and one guy took one dad turned towards him and he ran away he avoided him yes one guy picked up a bollard and and he ran away those two guys' shooters I mean they got tackled twice by the old nothing there's no stopping them so you have to fight to the death for them yes yeah they were on a mission can I touch on that too that's a perfect example of untrained person so that hero that tackled the guy with a shotgun amazing well well done him but when he stood up and he had the shotgun in his hand the uh the hero he didn't know what else to do put it down against a tree for me that's a that's a that's a big baseball bat that you can just start yes start practicing baseball on the guy. I don't know if you know how to use guns whoever it is out there um and and I think it wasn't loaded but you can start swinging it and stop the guy because the guy actually ended up running upstairs and getting another weapon is starting shooting. For that one there if you hear shots you we you know it's gonna happen it can happen in your place. Look for cover. Cover is something that the bullets can't go through if if Bondi knife guys there look just go back into a a store and get a chair go to a cafe and a a chair is a great thing like a line between you and the knife yeah but you gotta see it and take action again it comes down to that hopefully see it before it happens. You know technically if I was rolling up to that Bondi thing to go to the beach with my 10 year old son I'd just spin the car around 180 and drive away.

Speaker 1 33:35

I did see people warn others as they were driving past there was someone on a motorbike who yelled out that they've got a gun and that's when they started shooting because oh well everyone knows now so we might as well start shooting.

Speaker 33:46

I loved I loved what the old couple did um when they the guy Richard got out the old couple they just took action and and that's what heroes do they take action it didn't work for them but yes I would much rather go out like that be in that position go out blazing it doing my best you know same same honestly and I I guess you either think like that or you don't you got it yeah and I hope that people listen to this will now think like that because I just try and put files in people's brains.

Speaker 1 34:14

Yeah and there was a lot of heroes that day a lot of people protecting others other a lady with a surfboard correlling people across the beach behind the surfboard. Yeah I don't know if that would stop a bullet but it was a nice thought um a car won't stop a bullet Georgia no yeah we'll go straight through all all um all two doors and come on the other side and we can oh that's terrifying so if you're just staying doors everyone behind a brick wall don't go outside and don't do things that are fun around if you're gonna hide behind a car hide behind the engine block uh where the wheel is okay yeah good tip moving on if it's not too much trouble and if you feel like you want to um would you mind telling us about a situation in your career or personal life where things escalated um and you had to act to save your own life or others?

Speaker 35:06

Yeah sure um this will give a perfect example of um turn towards a threat and take action I remember being asked in a show a couple of weeks ago how hard was it to transition from special forces into police and with my hand I was about to go here to here I said it was easy because I could step down real easily most people that only trained at a police level can't step up. So in one of my last days as a cop I was in the um in the office doing paperwork I was in civilian clothes jeans and uh shirt and so was my partner we were just doing a literally a mountain load of paperwork on the desk and this isn't kicked off it was a bomb threat at the ATO the uh Australian tax office tax station office um and um everybody's getting called in from everywhere and after about an hour and they're calling up for people to block these roads and do this and do that I said to Pepe I said bro let's go and tool up meaning go get our guns and get our stuff and get some radios and go and help them out and all we did was stand on a road intersection and uh and stop traffic and um and that was it stop road traffic you could still walk past and it's all winding down we're hearing the yep we want to take this road block off and take this road block off and the guy the bad guy we'd been told was wearing gray tracksuit pants and carrying a shopping bag and he had the bomb in his shopping bag just about to wind down Peppy's about 20 meters away so only in shouting range not within talking range and I turn around and I look down the footpath and this guy's walking towards me gray tracksuit pants two plastic shopping bags oh god and went from zero like smiling at all the public and saying good afternoon or good morning and all these things and telling what's going on in a nice way yeah to zero to my hand went onto my gun and said stop get down on your knees and he thought I was kidding and everybody else saw me go for my gun and the just parted like the red sea and I popped that gun out and I said down on your knees and he went straight down and it was highly unlikely it was going to be him and it wasn't him but it fit the description but I didn't ignore that red flag I was really happy with myself there because one plus one equals two and of course after we we'd figured out we cleared him no problem on your way but that's one example that that could have um uh saved a lot of people yes um the other life in the special forces every decision we make in training is life um uh threatening where where we put rounds down how I put explosive charge on it's life and death decisions every day but that's our normality but probably where um I've had the most life saving stuff is in the fire brigade when we go into buildings and in and fires I've got to look after my partner who's got to look after me and I place my life in their hands when I'm underneath a car um in a car crash same thing um that person the victim's life is in our hands or the partner without going something specific it's just the ability to fall back to your level of training and trust in your own instincts that you know what the right thing to do is and and don't ignore anything and and also be honest. I remember I've made mistakes in the fire brigade and I tell my boss straight away listen boss I've done this wrong we need to fix this that integrity that honesty means everybody's on the same page you know what if you gave someone the wrong drug you're not gonna cover it up you're gonna tell someone straight away correct they can fix it.

Speaker 1 38:28

Yes and we have spoken about that on the podcast um the story of Redon DeVort have you ever heard of her in um America she gave a muscle relaxant instead instead of a sedative and um killed a lady accidentally. Yeah and uh she was charged with reckless homicide and criminal negligence for the mistakes she made but she was basically thrown under the bus by the hospital. There was a lot of safety procedures and things that they didn't have in place and it's always like multiple safeguards in place in order to catch the the dangerous thing that could kill the patient, you know?

Speaker 39:04

A human error because you make mistakes right?

Speaker 1 39:06

Yes. We try to account for that and um pilots do that too. They do all these safety checks before they take off. That's a big thing in the Elaine Bromley case which is also another patient who died of a collapsed airway with a simple procedure under anesthetic and you know all the things lined up for them to die basically and typically it doesn't something gets in the way of that you know what I mean all our safeguards and policies and procedures get in the way of that but you know if everyone does one thing lazy that day or you know and doesn't do their double checks and misses something then the patient is an in danger or someone else or your family member or you you know so yeah it I you can apply it to everything really you really can and that's what we they say about special forces all the time is we just do the simple things really really really well and we try to make no mistakes on doing those simple things.

Speaker 40:03

Absolutely hopefully go smoothly.

Speaker 1 40:05

Yeah we have drug safety steps drilled into us from day one and we do 20 million checks and everyone gets pissed off at us but you know what it's the reason you're alive so I was on the other side of those checks on all the drugs after my surgery and it's great you know I want your name date of birth and I want this person to clear it and we're all good tick tick tick. And you need to tell them exactly what operation we're doing and what side and all of that because you know we don't want to take off the wrong peck.

Speaker 40:34

Mine was quite easy just back to your question. This one was about life saving it's not self-defense but um a year ago a year and a half ago now um I was in here I came in back to the house and I heard a car alarm going off I've never heard my car alarm go off and I went ah it's not my car five seconds later I went it's quite close it's my car probably not my car but I'll go have a look oh god halfway there that's really close that's where my car is but it doesn't sound like my car so you see the the red flags I ignored a little bit I had a bit of cognitive dissonance got there and it was my car on the driver's side at the the back door that window had been smashed in oh no ironically my first aid gear I got a big trauma kit it's a big backpack and big first aid thing on it and they've been taken I go running back inside because I didn't have my phone remember I told you at the start when I um am sleeping I have a pair of boots because I need to run or fight with a phone a torch and a tool now I've said tool because people can figure out what that tool might be. But I didn't have my phone when I went out to check up this car that wasn't mine. Ran back in got the phone got in the car calling police and I said listen I've got no description of anybody former police officer I'm gonna start doing laps and when I find this guy I'm gonna lock him up. So if you have a car available could you please send one up I've got no description for you it's in this area started doing laps stopped everybody I could see that was on the side of the road walking have you seen a guy with a backpack blah blah blah eight to ten minutes later hadn't found anything I'm about to do the last corner back to my house I've given up he's right there on the footpath going through that backpack and three other things he'd taken I said they're not rocket scientists they he was going through it. At least get home or something Jesus now I did have the pepper spray because I was carrying it in the car. Yes you did it's legal to own might not be legal to use or carry as I got out of the car I went he's gonna be a crackhead right I didn't want to get dirty and diseased and I said get down in front you're under arrest and he looked at me like this this stunned look because I'm not a cop and next thing his face is orange from the spray and of course um he didn't comply straight away because hand kicked in so I says stop resisting you're under arrest you're under the suspicion of this you're under a citizen's arrest I know I know what those laws are here and so should everybody and uh yeah long story short locked him up and then uh funnily enough I looked up and this is what you do when you're calling for help you blue shirt was the the woman with the pram you blue shirt call the police she doesn't know what's going on there's some guy on the ground with uh I'm kneeling on this guy she's starts to jab her some words and point up the alleyway she she started to get the phone it's because I gave her directions a specific person and just as she started do that these two cops came running down the corner and um they've been looking for a person break into cars for the last hour or two and uh long story short he went to jail for six months. Um that was an interesting way for me to use some of my training experience above self-defense to go and um and and sort something out. And that's probably the the best I've ever done more than police to actually help the help the victim which was me.

Speaker 1 43:41

Well done anyway. On topic of police, how long did you serve?

Speaker 43:44

Two or three years in police. I think on paper three, but probably about two two years.

Speaker 1 43:49

Okay, and and what sort of areas did you work in?

Speaker 43:52

General duties, policing most of it was around the um the the C B D.

Speaker 1 43:56

So low key after the SAS I would expect.

Speaker 44:00

So low-key apart from the bomb guy.

Speaker 1 44:02

Yeah, the bomb the bomb thing was a bit hectic. But you know, they these things happen just out of the blue. It's interesting that you say that you know, you're trained to to look for things. Cause I remember when they said that there was a spread of a virus, the healthcare workers were like, mask up, get your hand sanitizer, do all this, and and we were just treated horrendously. It was a very traumatic time for us. But what I'm saying is that we knew to do the things before it became like such a huge thing for the rest of the world. So when people started saying it was a conspiracy and all of this stuff, you know, just put your shit in the sun, it's gonna be fine. We're like, wow. Because I'm an anesthetic nurse. They trained us up to work in the ICUs for the people that were tubed and face down with COVID. Um, but it was mainly unfit people and very heavy people and very old people. So on that note, because you are so into fitness and well-being, would you say that it's important to be prepared in that you are physically fit to fight or run away?

Speaker 45:02

No. I mean, I've got for seven weeks I was in slings. I was still gonna be able to take down bad guys if they hurt me or my boy. Yes, the 84-year-old husband that I trained with his 82-year-old wife when I was training our seniors, they are physically incapable of a lot of things. They should be chosen by the bad guys' victims. Yes. You go and mug me, you're the guy with two slings. I'm the ultimate victim, harmless, you know. The the bottom line is the stuff I teach and the stuff we learned requires low skill, can be retained under the worst conditions, retained under pressure, and requires no fitness or strength. So if I came to grab you, Georgia, front-on, and you grabbed my head with your hands and stove in my eyeballs with your thumbs, that would work. Say you're in that car of yours with your son in a child seat in the back, different time of day, and that and your doors weren't locked, and that woman got in your car. You're not going to get out of the car and walk away. Say, thanks, insurance company, give me my money, R-A-C, because the kids in the back. You have to launch yourself over, grab their face, stove in their eyeballs, bite their face off, and go away. And that requires no fitness, no skill. Me with two arms and slings, I would still be able to handle that somewhat. These things that I teach they work, but but adrenaline, but without thinking of that like that, you wouldn't think to do it because not very nice, and you haven't practiced it. But now people have maybe seen that in their brain. And there's been cases of carjacking where the carjack is t taking the car with the kid in the back here in Australia.

Speaker 3 46:35

Yeah.

Speaker 46:35

But no, there's no fitness involved, and and there shouldn't be. You've got six 45-minute lessons before you went to World War II to do this stuff as a spy. That's crazy. I I need to teach you in a very short period of time how to protect yourself, how to protect your kids, and and maybe other people as well. So keep it simple, stupid. Totally. Isn't that what they say?

Speaker 1 46:55

Find something that hurts when you press it, and press it.

Speaker 46:59

So eyes, throat, knees, they are the only things. You can punch some in the guts, you can knee them in the groin. That doesn't work. Step sideways on their knee cup. Yeah, exactly. Break that lower limb and it will be. The lower leg, yeah.

Speaker 1 47:11

How do you clock a predator? Can you?

Speaker 47:13

They look they look weird, they look different.

Speaker 1 47:16

They do. So profiling is a thing for a reason.

Speaker 47:18

100%. Yeah. 100%. Yes. Um, a guy on guys are different. Guy's always chest beating an ego. And I take the ego away with another chest beater walking towards me. I was like, get a mate. I still am friendly, have a be polite, and have a plan to kill everyone I meet. But I go, get a mate. Yeah. It doesn't mean get a get a mate. It just means to them. I've seen you. Um but no, they just look weird. A predator, it looks weird. You know, if a guy's following you, if you think a guy's following you, he probably is. So do something about it. If you think that guy's looking weird or or acting strange, it's it's just what isn't normal. That's how you clock a predator.

Speaker 1 47:53

And I think from experience, that is generally true. What terrifies me are the predators that are so normal, and but they're like psychopaths, you know what I mean? Like serial killers and things like that, like Ted Bundy, who was like a law student or whatever. And you know, just he would have been the guy in two slings, wouldn't he? Yeah, yes, yes, exactly. He faked injuries and things and sought out sympathy, and he was very good looking as well. So he like got the girls and then went and murdered them. And those are the things that sort of m keep me up at night. But um, I like a person who's actively weird because I know who to avoid. You know what I mean?

Speaker 48:32

Don't talk to strangers, but the other side of this, and and I've interviewed um actually a couple of them are coming out. One woman, Australian woman, sexually assaulted young and then older. Both of them were people she knew. Um, it's much more common to be someone you know as a uh male and female uh sex crime. No, be someone that you know that they groom you in some way, and then it goes from here to here. Yes. And and you know, I said that switching on thing as a special forces go, you have to be able to communicate with someone, and then suddenly they've gone past a boundary. You may need to stop them, or worst case, the eyes throat knees, you know, be prepared to kill everyone you meet. It's not very nice, but it's the reality. Um, really, really want the listeners and viewers to to know that it's horrible that you're dancing with someone on the dance floor, and then an hour later you're fighting for your life because they wanted it wanted more than than you did.

Speaker 1 49:25

Yes. Do you teach de-escalation strategies or not? Just mainly getting out of a dangerous situation?

Speaker 49:33

I go worst to to least. So if you come to me for an hour, I need to teach you how not to die.

Speaker 1 49:38

Yes, okay.

Speaker 49:39

Yes. It's worst case first. You know, you learn CPR first, not just how to bandage a little wound.

Speaker 1 49:45

Yes.

Speaker 49:46

In first aid. So I want to go worst case first. Because if you have to leave, if if you had to call that your kids sick at school within 30 minutes, I wonder you've actually gone away with something that's gonna make you stay alive. Help you the most. And then eventually we go to de-escalation one million percent. So yeah, okay. You know, guys following you, turn around, F off, stop following me. I'm calling the police. That's again escalation of some kind.

Speaker 1 50:08

Yeah, that's a de-escalation.

Speaker 50:11

Well, compared to fighting them, yeah, compared to running like the horror story, the movies that you've seen, and you can't get into your your house with the the shaking hands, um, it will be a form of that. But you're not there to police them, you're not there to arrest them, you're not there to do control and restraint, they're there to live. So de-escalation, like you're thinking, no. I mean, de-escalation.

Speaker 1 50:38

Because we get attacked a lot in hospital.

Speaker 50:40

And yeah, and I trained a great great New Zealand uh girl. Did you? Uh uh, she's a nurse, and she had to use one of these techniques um against the guy. He went to grab some scissors and she just she did one of our low threat things. She didn't do eye straight and next, she did a low threat maneuver and uh you know, fuck off. And and and that stopped him straight away, it changed his mind. So she turned aggressive. She turned full on aggressive and that worked, and then she she dropped that down. Yeah, yeah. When it's self-defense, it's not about de-escalation because you screwed up because you didn't see it first. Yes, yeah, yeah, you're right. But later on I can teach you de-escalation skills uh when you've got those other skills to back it up.

Speaker 1 51:19

I've been punched by a patient, that was fun. But um, it wasn't an intentional. We have patients that come out of anesthesia and they get like a uh particularly the um the young fit blokes, they get a post-op delirium and they get aggressive because they don't know where they are, and they're coming out of a K-hole or whatever, and they just come up swinging. So copped one in the chest, but I was all right.

Speaker 51:46

I mean, that's like you said, is is relatively accidental. It wasn't didn't have any malice to it, but yeah, what gets me is helpers. You didn't sign up to nursing to get abused and and and physically assaulted. Um, in prisons, the the nurses in prisons, they didn't sign up for that. I've had women with um glass to their throat and things. It's a shame, but yeah, the bottom line is still need to know how to handle that. Know when it goes from talking to self-defense. And that now I remember at the police academy, that's where it was a failure to teach the police the difference between arresting someone or dealing with someone versus self-defense. And I've had police have to come to me to learn how to save their own lives because they didn't they didn't know the distinction. They're like, Oh, I'm not allowed to grab him by the neck because I'll get fired. The guy's gonna kill you because he's gonna take your partner's gun. So you need to grab him by the neck and pull him off your partner. Right.

Speaker 1 52:35

Yeah, there's a whole thing about excessive force these days. What do you think about it?

Speaker 52:39

Here in Western Australia, self-defense is not a right, it's a defense in court doing a harmful act to another human. I don't know what it is over over East, but here it's not a right, it's a defense in court. So highly likely you could be charged if you if the police officer thinks so, and rightly so in law, because it's not just it's just law. So here's how you break it down. In the circumstances you believe it to be, Georgia, it's reasonable to use that force. So you believe when that woman knocked on your window and said, My partner over there's got a machete, he's gonna kill you. That's the circumstances. I'm changing the circumstances now. The circumstances you believe them to be, it's reasonable for you to drive away. And he was standing in front of your car swinging, and you just want to drive away and get past him. Yes, yes. I think it's reasonable to use that level of force to overcome that level of force being used against you. So two people punching each other, it's not enough force to overcome it. You have to use reasonable force to overcome the force being used against you. The best way I can teach you how not to go to jail is this you break that guy's leg, as you said, you break his tip or fib or his ankle. Or all of them. All of them, but but you don't go and soccer kick him in the head because he can't get up now. See, I would. You've stopped the bad guy, he can't chase you. If he's got a gun or you don't know that though, you don't know if you've actually broken anything, especially if you're a girl. If he's having trouble getting up, like the UFC guy that breaks his leg. Okay, all right. But if you go and soccer kick him in the head, yes, that's for us against the enemy in war. You're probably gonna go to jail. Wow, yeah, that's crazy. But if he's if but if he's the Bondo shooter and you're smashing to pieces because you think he can go run in the circumstances you believe them to be, he's gonna go get another gun. So it's reasonable to do that. There you go. That's that's some real world example of it. Yeah, appropriate use of force.

Speaker 1 54:25

Yeah, that's very interesting. Thank you. So I'm gonna do, in closing, some rapid fire questions, if that's okay. You ready? So they're quick. You're just like one-word answers or a couple, all right? So, what's one um mistake that can get you killed in seconds? Ignoring red flags. Ignoring red flags. Beautiful. Biggest myth about self-defense women can fight. It's true, it's true. I can't fight. Something movies get completely wrong about violence, I suppose.

Speaker 55:00

That women can't be able to do that. You've got to disable the bad guy. You won't knock him out, and and knocking him out can also put you in jail because he might die.

Speaker 1 55:09

Yeah, right. Yeah, true. Yeah, you're not hailed the hero.

Speaker 55:13

No, it's not a fight. You're there for self-defense, not a fight.

Speaker 1 55:16

Gotcha. Okay. Best way to stay safe on a night out.

Speaker 55:20

Stick with your friends. Take that lift from your friend.

Speaker 1 55:24

Gut instinct or logic?

Speaker 55:25

Gut instinct, because your brain, your what you said is logic, will override instinct. Guard instinct every time you're gonna try and outthink it, and it always fails and it snowballs that red flag. So gut instinct every time. Guns or knives. Oh, if I was in America, I want a gun, but I've always got a tool where this one's cut um, save people's lives. This has.

Speaker 1 55:47

Yeah, okay. Good.

Speaker 55:49

So both. Depends where you are. About time places in sense, but um, always have a tool. Always have a tool.

Speaker 1 55:57

A tool, a pen. I've got one here. It's a soft tip one though, unfortunately.

Speaker 56:06

A nice pointy stabby thing.

Speaker 1 56:08

It'd go in an eyeball. Anyway, before we go, I've just got one last closing question. So you've spent your entire life learning how people get hurt and how they survive. If someone listening takes one thing away from this, something that could genuinely keep them alive, what would it be?

Speaker 56:25

I've written two articles on this for international magazines. One was after the playground stabbing in France, and one was after the shooting in the high rise in Auckland. Two quite safe places, apparently. See the thing and turn towards it. You hear the shots, turn towards it, so you can see what the hell's going on. You see the weirdo walking the playground, turn towards him. Oh, it's a Syrian refugee with a knife. Take action. So first thing is see the thing and turn towards it. Second thing is take action. Yeah. Those two things will put you going forward so well. If you see the thing and turn towards it, maybe you can get away. Take action. Maybe that is getting away, or maybe it's getting a pram and ramming at the guy so you can everybody else can get away.

Speaker 1 57:08

On your way out.

Speaker 57:09

See the see the thing, turn towards it, and take action. Those are the the things I can I think anybody can do. The action you took was great. Like I said, you you're safe and you won. Well done, you. Um, you saw the thing, you took action by locking the door, because that's a drill you've obviously done. You're gonna do it lots now. Um, and maybe next time, if it goes sideways, you'll start driving away and you won't draw to the bad drive.

Speaker 1 57:31

I will. Uh great. Where can everyone find you and how can they take your course?

Speaker 57:37

Thank you. Uh, how not to die guy, google it or how not to dieguy.com. Same thing on Instagram. I love helping people, it's what I do. Don't make much money off it at all, but I do love helping people with what works. And I'm happy to answer any questions.

Speaker 1 57:52

Thank you very much. And I I intend to keep telling stories. I think that's my strong point. Um agreed. Ah, thank you. It was so fun. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope I'll get to have you back on or, you know, talk to you again in the future.

Speaker 58:06

Absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Speaker 1 58:08

Thank you.