How to Find Your People as a Neurodivergent Midlife Woman with Guest Caroline Maguire

Navigating friendships in Midlife can feel like a potential minefield. And, with more and more women being diagnosed with ADHD and other forms of neurodivergence at this pivotal time, the challenge of finding people that light us up can feel like yet another potential obstacle to us living our second chapter our way.

So I'm delighted to be joined for this episode by my Guest Caroline Maguire, Social-Emotional Learning Expert and Author of Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults.

Caroline shares her own experiences, and explains why friendship can "feel uniquely complicated for neurodivergent adults, especially in Midlife".

We delve into the importance of connection and community. 

And we talk through Caroline's insights and practical tips for how to build and repair friendships "with more clarity, confidence and self-understanding".

Connect with Caroline

https://carolinemaguireauthor.com/

 https://www.facebook.com/AuthorCarolineM

https://www.instagram.com/authorcarolinem/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnDmu0c8kr0co2ppXo3EC8A

https://www.linkedin.com/in/authorcarolinecm/

https://www.tiktok.com/@authorcarolinem

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-adhd-social-playbook/id1810263678

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Midlife Unlimited, the podcast for women who want more. I'm your host, Kate Porter, the Midlife Metamorphosis coach, and I know what it's like to feel stuck navigating the midlife maze. I've looked in the mirror and thought, who is that woman? So Midlife Unlimited is here to let you know you are not alone. You don't have to put on a brave face and put up with it. You don't have to play it safe. Midlife Unlimited is all about ripping off that mask and telling it like it really is. Nothing is off limits because together there's no limit to what we can achieve. So, welcome to today's episode. Now, I've had great feedback from my episode with Talia Zamora, where we explored how to embrace your neurodivergent identity as a midlife woman. So I thought it was high time we revisited the subject here on Midlife Unlimited. And I'm delighted to be joined by my guest today, Caroline McGuire, social emotional learning expert and author of Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults to talk about how to find your people as a neurodivergent midlife woman. So welcome, Caroline. It's fabulous to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun just getting to know you and exploring your audience and listening to the pod.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Oh, well, I'm delighted to hear that because I'm all about the conversation and we always have a little pre-chat to start to get obviously we're on the other side of the Atlantic from each other, but we feel a connection and we've got a lot of exploring and conversations to be had in this episode. Because friendship, now it's something we've talked about a lot on Midlife Unlimited, and I think the general consensus seems to be that all of us find fading or drifting friendships as something we're having to navigate. And then obviously, if you add in a neurodivergent identity and friendship, it can get even more complex, can't it?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

It absolutely can, because we don't always have a history of having a good luck with friendship, right? So where someone else might say, gee, my friendships are stalled, or they're drifting, or we've moved and it's not working, or I'm too busy being, you know, part of the sandwich generation. Um if you never really had good luck making friends, you take all that so personally when sometimes it's not about you personally, it's about midlife is a different time and there's a different social structure and there's different sort of games, you know. So I think it's really hard when you never really found your footing to regain your footing.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

No, no, I I like that. It's so refreshing to hear you speaking so openly about it. Because I know there's going to be loads of women listening and some chaps as well, who are thinking they've they're they've come recently to a diagnosis or they've come to a realization that hang on, I I think I need to explore this more. And obviously, you've got your your new book out, and that that's not the only reason we've got you here, because you've got so much to share, and you're going to be sharing your insights later on, which I'm really looking forward to. But can you tell us more of your story? You know, how how has the book come about? How did you think this is something that's needed? And I am the woman to write it.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

So 21 years ago, when I started as an ADHD coach, um, everyone I encountered didn't have friends. And I had had a really hard time socially, and I had kind of found my footing eventually. I had figured it out, not perfectly, and I still struggled with oversharing and some definite skills, but I had figured it out. And I was sort of struck by the fact that ADHD folks of all ages really struggled with socialization. And when I would talk to sort of the powers that be, who were then the gatekeepers, because this is before the internet really took hold and you could say, Well, I'm gonna start a YouTube channel or a podcast. And even if you don't want me to speak at your conference about this topic, I'm gonna speak about it anyway. They would sort of say, Oh, Caroline, people need to get to work, people need time management. They don't, you know, kids, kids are failing out of school. And I was like, Well, wait a minute. You have to have a reason to go to work, you have to have a reason to get up in the morning. And that reason is friendship and connection and love and belonging, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Um, and so I started as becoming that person, the person who talked about friendship. Um, and then my first book, Why Will Know and Play With Me, came out in 2019, just before the pandemic. And it it everywhere I was, I was lucky that it came out before the pandemic. So I was able to like go all over the place, promoting it, meeting people. And everywhere I went, every news station I entered, every ballroom, everywhere I went, every podcast, people said, Well, I get that you're talking about kids and how they can make friends, but the adults don't have friends either. And as parents, we don't know how to help our kids make friends. That is the thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 5:37

It's so monkey see, monkey do. If we've struggled, I mean, I I I've not been diagnosed, but I had a really shitty time. Some at kind of borderline bullying, but also because of you know family circumstances, etc., it can all impact on how I won't say mean girls, but you can feel quite isolated in certain circumstances, can't you? You by not having, you know, being in with the right crowd or having a big circle of friends.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah, and there's there's like an element to this of, you know, if you're in a a small pokey place that you love, like I'm more in the country and I love it here, but there's just, you know, not as many of my people, right? So if you're in a big city, I think that there's downsides to it, but the upside is there's more opportunities to meet your people, right? So that was the other thing that came up, is where people would DM me or email me and say, Well, I'm an adult. I read your book for children because I'm so desperate for this information. And like, I've had a hard time for various reasons, and my people aren't necessarily in my town. What do I do? So there was all this stuff that was coming up, and I had always worked with adults, I just wasn't really known for it. And I just started to think like we need a book for this, we need to talk about this, we need support for this, and then enter the pandemic, right? And the pandemic, as you know, because you lived it too, I think it changed so much more than we realized. And even now, six years after, I think we really realized how much it changed. And there was just this explosion of ADHD and autism diagnosis all over the world. I mean, UK, US, everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Because I saw a statistic, I haven't got the exact numbers inside inside me, beside me, even. And so, yeah, the number of women diagnosed is nearly doubled in recent years. I'm not sure exactly what recent years is, but is it more information, do you think? Is it women actually thinking, hang on, they're reading about uh other women in similar circumstances and thinking I can identify with that? This is making sense to me now.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

I think it's that. I think it's that you had all this time in lockdown, and you were like, I didn't ever get a chance to fill out this NIH paperwork to get on a list to get diagnosed or to get on a list for the neuropsychiatrist or to do the research. But now you've locked me in my house and I'm watching episodes of Glee and the Crown over and over again, and I'm stuck here and I'm gonna do something for myself, right? Like, I think it's why people started, you know, home businesses and stuff. It's like we just started to say, well, I have no commute, right? Right? Like, think about the hours many of us have spent on the tube in the immediate, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Immediately it's like three hours a day, you know, you wouldn't have blinked at that, would you? But I know I used to commute, I think we know four hours a day some days. It's just like all that time to recoup and think, right, what am I gonna do? And also, what am I gonna do with it? For me, as you say, that that's quite a brazen thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Right. And I think there was also this thing of like, I know I experienced this where I was like, right, you know, March 17th, 2020, I went, right, I'm the mom of this house. I am the one who, if I go down to depression or whatever, which you know I'm prone to, and I knew that being inside the house for however long, and I knew it was gonna go on and on, right? I said, you know, I have to do things that keep me emotionally centered and happy because these kids and my husband, they're all gonna have big feelings and emotions, and it always ends up with the mom, right? So I think there was that too, where some women were like, I've always thought this, I've always felt this, I've always wondered about this, or they had time to read the books. And then they said, Well, also, I'm gonna do this for me because I have to, I have to be the one who puts the oxygen mask on first, right? And I just think it was this like opportunity. And I personally, by the way, think it's awesome. I think it's so great that women have taken this opportunity because we are less likely to be diagnosed and more likely to be told, you know, that there's nothing really wrong and it's in our imagination and like to be gaslit about it.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

It's the whole get on with it, isn't it? Oh yeah, and you or the fact we don't like to bother anyone because oh, it's a little niggly thing, or when I hear again and again, you know, oh it's menopause.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Oh my god, I go crazy when people say that because I'm like, they've been feeling this forever.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yeah, but to me, it it's an act of self-love to actually take the time, and that's something we don't do enough, you know, to actually take the time to yes, bubble baths, etc. are great, but self-care and self-love is actually taking the time to get to know ourselves properly and to identify why we're feeling these feelings. What is it? Because as you say, so often it's just carry on, carry on, carry on, carry on. There's no end inside, is there?

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Well, and and just saying something that's a little, you know, out of the box. I feel like many of us, as you know, our parents' generation or the World War II generation reached the end of their lives. How many of them had mental health problems that were never dealt with that made them really difficult to deal with, right? Where, you know, they were a challenging person or an anxious person or a person that, you know, one of someone just texted me this morning, a friend of mine, and said how like we need to talk about something in her family, but we can't talk about it because the oldies like can't handle the discussion. And like all of that, I think self-care is also saying, I don't want to be that. So I'm gonna take care of my mental health, I'm gonna get to know myself, I'm gonna give myself the nourishment I need in order so that my kids aren't saying, oh my gosh, I'm dreading being with you. Like that is something most of us don't want. And I think so. I think there's a little bit of a like revolution involved in this, where women are saying, It's midlife, I'm halfway there, and I want there to be more my loving myself and loving who I become, and not someone crafted out of whatever you went through, you know, in your past life. You want to feel good.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Yeah, absolutely. And I say by by having that greater understanding of why you're behaving or thinking the way you are, it's giving you more freedom as well in a strange way, isn't it? It's giving you more choices because you can actually base your decisions on the fact that this might trigger a certain feeling, or this might make you feel more anxious, or you're kind of learning more, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

I think you are, and I think it makes life so much richer, right? And I think that also it's it's a gift to yourself, like you said, you deserve it, and you deserve to sort of feel um that connection, that belonging. It's permission, right, to proceed. It's permission to say, this is who I am, this isn't who I've been either, maybe, right? Maybe I've been different, but I don't want to be that person anymore, right? And I I want to be who I really always wanted to be, and to really explore that.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

So the the book that you come up with, Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults, and I love the subtitle, a guide for the anxious, uniquely wired, and easily distracted. I mean, it does that encapsulate how you, or is that kind of the general feeling that people might think, God, yes, that that just resonates, that sums me up.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

That's what I wanted to do because I knew not everybody knows the word neurodivergent. And so if it was on a table at a bookstore, I wanted people to be able to look at that subtitle and go, Well, wait a minute, I am easily distracted. Um, you know, uh, I am this, I am that, I am, you know, somebody who is uniquely wired, or I am someone who is anxious. And even if you didn't know the word neurodivergent, even if you didn't have a diagnosis yet, you could go, well, that wait a minute, that's me.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Well, what I love from the minute I first started speaking to you is that whole you're demystifying and yet taking the labels off and actually look, we're people here, and we're all we're all not the same. However, we're wired, everyone is gonna be slightly different, so there is no right or wrong. And as we say, this is a a lifelong condition. Is that the right phrase to use? Yeah, challenge condition. Yeah, and it's so it's not something we're gonna grow out of, it's not something we're gonna get over. This is just how we are. So, friendship, as you say, it's can be a difficult thing to negotiate, to navigate. Are the tips and insights that you're gonna be sharing, are they based on on your own experience combined with conversations you've had, or is it more scientific? I mean, I've got a feeling it's really going to be grassroots and something that everyone can read and go, yes, I can do that, I can implement that, I can take this step.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

It's everything. So it's me being a clinician for 21 years and having hundreds and hundreds and thousands of clients. Um, and I I am like the little engine that could. So I have a lot of energy and I tend to also see more clients than normal clinicians, right? So I often will say my caseload, you know, oh, I have this many people. And, you know, like a psychiatrist friend of mine was like, nobody has that many clients. And I was like, no, but I do. Um and uh and you know, just because I I have a lot of energy. Um and then the other thing is it's it's uh surveys, it's research, it is science-based. I went into the dating world and I looked at, you know, we don't have many studies on neurodivergent adults, um, or even on adults and friendship in general, is like very scientifically kind of thin. Um, so I had to use studies about kids and I had to use studies from like the dating world. How do you date? Right? People spent all this time thinking about dating, but we spend very little time thinking about who are my people, what do I want? What do I deserve? Um, you know, and so I looked at that, I met with a couple of matchmakers, right? And I was like, how do you help people find their people? So it's based on a lot of things, but there is a sort of crowdsourcing grassroots. Someone told me a tip once, and then I tried it with hundreds of people and was like, yes, this works. Um, and that was my main thing was like I knew the tips I wanted to include, and then I had to write the book around all those tips because I knew the things that you know would work for different people. And so part of what I keep saying to people is take what you want and leave the rest. If something doesn't work for you, don't you don't have to, it's not prescriptive. Just say, oh, I'm gonna do something else.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

No, I love that. Now, obviously, we're gonna be sharing if anyone if listeners have not already got their copy, and it's not a it's not a blatant plug, but you know, I'm backing this because it works. It will, I've heard so many good things, and um, I've got my copy here as well. We're gonna be sharing later on how listeners can get hold of their copy. But could you share some of your insights and top tips then? Where I mean, is it a progressive way to talk through it, or what's the best way to delve into your tips and insights?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Well, so one of the things I want to say is that friendship has to feel worth it, right? We're all busy, right? We have tons to do. Our to-do list is never ending. We're juggling at midlife, you know, elderly parents, maybe kids still, jobs, you know, all of the things of life, you know, cost of living, crises, you know, if all that stuff's burdensome, right? Like you now you have to think about that that you didn't have to think about a year ago. All that we're juggling. And so to go out to meet someone, to join a group, to have an activity, to join an online group, whatever it is, it has to feel worth it, right? Absolutely. So I have a lot of tips around taking the time. And not everybody's gonna do this. And people have been DMing me and they're like, I don't want to do this, Caroline. And I'm like, that's fine. You don't have to. Not forcing you to, but I would suggest humbly that the best thing to do is to start with the exercises around what fills your connection cup, right? We're not all the same. What you need socially is different from what I need socially, right? Um, I always tell this story. My husband is like an extreme extrovert, like he wants to be social 24 hours a day. I don't, right? So you have to think about that. And then what who are your people? And the best way to make friends is through shared interest. So that's my first big tip. What is your interest? What do you want to build conversation around? What kind of things do you like to do? And when you meet people who like to do the same things because interest is huge for us, neurodivergent people. It's how our brain works that we really need things to be interesting. That allows us to meet people. And it could be that you love crafting or you love quilting or you love a good Highland cow. I love a good Highland cow, right? Like I have a nice seat. Look, I got him in Scotland last year. Oh wow! So cute. So cute. I have Highland cows all over this house, including my dog has toys, which he's quickly destroying. But um, but you know, what is it that you like to do, right? And then also another one is have a role or a job. Because when you're anxious, okay, when you're anxious and you go somewhere to be social, even if it's, you know, your girlfriend invites you to come along to a dinner that, you know, her friends from work and would you come? And I think you'll like so and so, it's anxiety provoking, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Oh, especially that feeling where you don't really know anyone that well and you feel you're kind of hovering on the edge of a conversation, or that kind of do I want to go, hi, I'm Kate, nice to meet you. And then they're like, Oh, she's a bit much, or you kind of like I I can I can put myself right there now, kind of thinking, do do I, do I but hi?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Right, right. I went, I always I made a video about this that I've never put up, and I shall put it up now. Um, I went to a wedding last fall of a dear friend, but it was like mostly her family because it was like a second wedding, right? It was a midlife wedding. And she wanted me to come and I was so happy to come, but I only knew one other person. And as we were driving there, my husband's like, Who do you know? And I'm like, I swear to God, I know one other person. Yeah, the bride, yeah. Well, the bride and like one other person who I used to be in a group with in like 2011, right? Like, so I haven't seen this one. And it was anxiety provoking. And I was like, okay, now I know how my clients feel because it was like, I don't know anyone, and I'm not sure, you know, what the topics of conversation will be. And it ended up being that the bride put us with people who were really great and like really like us. And my husband had the best time, like he was talking to these other guys about, you know, all his hobbies. And I was like, wow, she did a great job. But that doesn't always happen. So if you have a job or a role, if you run the barbecue, if you collect the coats, if you get the drinks, right? If you help the hostess, then you aren't as much about like, oh, what do I do with my body? Right. If you are um joining a group, I just was at something last night and they were looking for people to run fundraising for music programs in my town. If you're really into music, there's people who are into music. And now if you have a job, instead of feeling awkward, you're like, you have an excuse to talk to people. Hey, I'm Caroline. I'm calling you Kate because we're doing this fundraising. I heard that you used to be the single greatest oboeist and whatever. We would love you to come talk to the kids. Instead of, I don't know what to do with myself, right? So anything, dogs, I'm telling you, dog parks, volunteering to help dogs, animal shelters, all that stuff. If you're into that, those are great ways to meet people and you have a role, right? I'm running things, I'm doing this, I'm helping with the dogs, I'm walking the dogs. So I now I have an excuse to talk to you. And it's just not just that super awkward thing of like I have to walk across a room and be like, hi, I'm Caroline.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

And do you do you think sometimes we can feel reticent about say I love the idea of taking on a role? But I won't say, is it okay? But how would you go about thinking, if you think, right, yeah, I'd love to get involved with this and I'd love to, because it's that you don't want to sound big-headed by saying, I think I could be really useful in this role. Are there certain ways you can find out who to speak to and how to start the conversation?

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yes. And here's what I want to say. We are at midlife, right? And one of the jokes about midlife is that like you stop having that artifice of not saying what you mean. Like, you know, you start being like, I don't want to do that, right? So I would encourage people to embrace that side of themselves and to say, I could be really good at this role, right? Also, by do it, yeah. White men do. Right. There's a little thing that goes around in America. I don't know if it goes around the UK, like memes about white men and what they do. They do say I'm good at this, right? And you know what? Why not?

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Right? Yeah, absolutely. Because we've we've spent too long just putting ourselves in the back, you know, putting ourselves in the corner.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Exactly. Um, the other thing I want to say is I have a lot of scripts in the book. I love a script because it's a jumping off point, right? How do you make conversation? How do you chat to people? But I also would say you just explain, you know, I'm looking to meet people in this community, I'm looking to do things with, you know, music. I love to help dogs, I have a background in this. And write out a little script for yourself, right? Write out a little script, but do say what you're good at because honestly, people need help, right? And so, you know, if you call up someone who's having a 70th birthday party and say, Hey, I'm great at making drinks, you know, and also you can say I'm a little uh socially awkward, I'm a little anxious. I would love to help you run the drinks because it gives me something to do. No busy hostess is gonna say no. No, they're gonna be like, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

But I would have thought being open like that will actually help you in the long run, rather than trying to be like, oh, I don't want to say anything about myself.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Right. Because maybe you are great at making, I mean I'm terrible, but maybe you are great at making drinks. I never remember anything, and I never remember all the ingredients for stuff. So I don't want anybody who knows me listening to say, by the way, Caroline is like the worst I am. Um, but I think you know, there are people who are really, really good at those kind of things. There are people who are really, really good cooks who can help in the kitchen. There are people who are great organizers. Um, so that's one of my big tips is like have that role, have that job.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Love that. Love that. That's really good. Now, obviously, we were saying earlier about seeing you live in kind of a smallish town, as do I. Um I'm near to London, but I'm not right in the heart of it. And that can in itself be tricky because it's it's a numbers game, isn't it? There are less people here to be to be your people. So, I mean, is it a bit trial and error? Or I mean, I'm guessing there isn't there is no guarantee, is there?

SPEAKER_00 26:48

No, I mean, I do have chickens next door, so that gives you context of where I am, right? I live next to a farm and there are chickens. And actually, my son's bus driver the other day was fascinated by how the chickens will like come right up to my property line, but like won't come over even though there's no fence. And I think they know. I was like, I can't give you an explanation, but they know. That's incredible. Yeah, it's really funny. Um, but you know, I think that I do I have a process that I outline in the book for how to figure out who your people are and how to vet different groups, right? So you can look for high engagement, right? So I'm interested in this, but then I want to look for opportunities of high engagement. Because if you go and there's no opportunity for you to chat, right? There's no opportunity to get to know people, it's just not part of the structure. Then you're not going to meet people. The other thing I advise now, a lot of people don't like this advice, but I'm gonna go ahead and give it anyway because it's good advice. Uh, if you have to travel, travel, right? You have to make the decision as an individual, right? And I had a I had a group that I used to go into and it was like a lab and it was helping ADHD adults with different things. And I would come in and talk about friendship. And there was a person and she followed my advice. She joined a high interest activity, didn't work. And then she lived in a pokey place like we do. Like we're I know where you are. You're not so pokey, but it's beautiful. But then you're like, well, you know, there weren't people here. And she traveled for her high interest activity, like an hour and a half on train, and she met great people and she had a fabulous day. You know, one of those days where you just feel fulfilled, and they all shared interest of around this same photography. It was like photography and art and all these different things. And she said, you know, and I've been in touch with those people since then. We've been texting, we've been planning to get together. And I said, you have to make a decision. Do you want to travel an hour and a half and then be virtual with people and have every day feel like that? Or do you want to say, I have to have these people in my backyard? And she said, travel like that, you know, instantly. And that's what I'd say to people. Sometimes it's going to be virtual, sometimes it's going to mean travel. Um, I had a client who ended up in this like crafting circle of women where they would like rent, this is so cool. They would rent hotel rooms and they would get together like four or five times a year to do like, I'm talking major crafts, like crafts I could never follow the directions because you have to actually read directions, and I don't ever read directions. Um, and you know what? That's not someone who's in your everyday life. But maybe they are because you're texting and calling and supporting each other, right? Looking forward, right? So that that's also my advice. Like open up your circle a little bit and your mind a little bit around, okay, I'm gonna follow this, you know, sort of idea that Caroline has laid out. I have a whole formula in the book, and I'm gonna open myself up to if they're not in my backyard, what else could it be? And you have to do some investigation, you have to be a little Miss Marple, right? Like you have to be like, I'm investigating what this is and what these groups are, and I'm making some calls. But I think it's better than to say, I don't have that zing or that passion, and I'm just here in my backyard, and these people aren't really my people.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Yeah, no, absolutely that's and you're sitting there with the kind of then it leads to dissatisfaction, doesn't it? And then that kind of like, oh, what's the point? I won't bother. And it's like, no, no, I I like the idea of it, it doesn't have to be all the time, does it? And they say if even if it's only five times a year, six times a year that you're physically getting together, there are opportunities for online catch-ups, or as you say, WhatsApp and conversations in the meantime.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah, and I don't know, I hate being lonely in a crowd, right? So, and it's entirely up to you, right? I again, this isn't prescriptive. I'm not telling you how to friend, but what I'm saying to you is if you meet your people and you find your people and you have that common ground, right? You have these high interest activities, you have these topics to talk about, it's so much smoother, it's so much easier because you have this shared experience. And if it's not in your backyard, if that just isn't available because you're living next to chickens, not people, right? Yeah, maybe you travel, maybe you find online opportunities. It is a different day than our parents' generation where that stuff just didn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

No, that's it. You just think of the myriad of ways that we are able to keep in touch now. You know, the old days writing a letter or at least now we've got phones, we've got laptops, most of us. It does make it so much more accessible, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 32:06

It does. And you know, I think that um younger people, right? Like there's a lot about Gen Z that people are saying that's pretty negative. But I will say the things that they embrace is if it doesn't work here, I'm gonna go somewhere else. Right? They're really they're good, they're good about talking about mental health, like they will have none of this we don't talk about it stuff of past generations. And I have to say what I admire about them is they're kind of like if people are in Norway and I'm in America and those people game and do the things I want to do, I'm gonna spend time with them online and I'm gonna be happy rather than in my backyard, but be lonely in a crowd. I I have to say it's a good trait. We could learn from that.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah. I'm I'm a mum of a Gen Z Zen Z. So uh yeah, up them, up them Zs.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah. Um and we and they and they can take things from us too, right? There's some things we can teach them.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

A generational swap. Yes. So are there any other tips that you you can share from your book?

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Obviously, I'm not trying to give it all away, but uh I think we need to put things on autopilot, right? And by that I mean instead of, you know, yeah, you know, you have those friends who never make a plan or the book club. You know, I had a book club that for years was like once the first Wednesday of the month, and then they started tinkering with it, and it became like every month was a different time. And I just had to say, I can't do this, right? My schedule is set two years in advance sometimes with the classes. I train people to be ADHD coaches, is one of my other life paths, and that's set so far in advance, right? So I was like, I can't every month be moving the book, like I can't move my clients. And I hear this a lot from neurodivergent people, but I think from women in general, like we have so much going on. And I think the more we can sort of speak up and say, I really would like to, you know, just look at the end of every meeting, let's set the next meeting or let's make it every Thursday. I think that, or we look for groups like that, because I think that's how our socialization becomes the other thing instead of the main thing, is that we have so much going on and then it just like falls off the to-do list, right? I I have to do, you know, these paperwork things, I have to go to the grocery store, I have to do these things.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

And then I don't know about you, but the social stuff then just becomes it becomes the move it and it becomes a movable feast, doesn't it? It becomes the if something has to give, and it shouldn't, I don't I use that word, I don't like, it mustn't be the thing that gives because once you start for and then you're like, oh, I haven't I I've been in that situation, you think, oh god, I've not been for two meetings, or I've not been for two weeks. Oh, everyone else that that they'll be ahead of me, or they'll have done something else, and I I'll be playing catch-up, or I won't know what the latest gossip is, or oh no, I'll leave it till next week. And then next week comes and it's like, well, now it's been three, and it isn't it. We just start making those excuses to ourselves, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

And and that comes back to the we weren't really taught or conditioned to prioritize ourselves, right? And that's that's a lot to overcome. Like, I think people sort of gloss over that training that we received, right? But I do think it's a thing, right? Like, I think that a lot of women, and I and by the way, I disagree with this. I think that you deserve to have happiness and not just go to the grocery store, right? But I think I think we are conditioned to kind of put ourselves last, and then our socialization becomes that movable feast, and then you know, we just don't have that fulfillment and that joy. Our life becomes about duty. Well, then we get, especially now, we get to that.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Is this it? You kind of we're living it on rotation, same, oh, it's Tuesday, it must be this. But now, I mean, I'm just turned 57, my boy's now moved, moved out, gone, living in London, and then you start thinking, well, what what I mean? I luckily I've moved beyond that. I'm now full of the joys and buzzing with ideas and excitement. But it's so easy to not be in that position. It's so easy to think, God, I feel left behind now. I I've been doing all this carrying everyone else, and suddenly everyone else is buggered off, and I'm sitting here going, Oh, now what?

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that you know, we deserve to have a more full, route, well-rounded life, but it's also easier said than done because there are so many things on the list to tick off. And so I think that putting things on autopilot, making them automatic, it's every Thursday. And you can look for groups and things and activities and you know, and meetups that are organized, right? And and there's ones that aren't. And maybe that's not for you because when it can become something we punt, we do, right? And I do think that there's just a logistical element to midlife that is different from when you were young and single or first married and you know, double income, no kids. It's really different because there's so much that we need to do. And I think that then we don't get to the things we really want to do.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Because what do you think of the idea of like, I mean, obviously, it may just be just you and your other half left in the house, but even like putting it on the fridge saying, no, Tuesday is Kate's blah day, and also that's making you accountable for doing it as well. Because every you think I can't get out of it now because I've told everyone that I'm going to this. I'm saying right, I am going to book club on Tuesday at eight o'clock.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Well, yeah, I mean, I think that that's amazing. I actually helped someone recently who wanted to have more dates with his wife, and it was really cute. And he was like, uh, he wasn't, you know, a person who was like super organized, hadn't really done this before. And we made this system that went on the blotter calendar, you know, in the kitchen, where he made a bunch of like basically little sticker type things that said activities they would do. And he consulted with her and then he just put them on the calendar. Like we're going on, you know, the I don't know if you've ever done this, but I I once went on a Thames cruise in London, like down the Thames.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Gorgeous. Lovely.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Yeah. All those things you want to do, right? You're like, I really want to do that. And then they fall off the radar. Yeah. He made a list like that, and he was just like, Friday, June, whatever, we're doing it, right? And I thought it was so incredible because I thought so many of us, we need to just put it on the calendar and put it out there. And, you know, my husband has a group he's a member of, and it, you know, he puts it on my calendar. It's it's once a month. It's like a men's support group. It's adorable. They're all from church. I love it. And it's it's on a rotation and it's sacred. It's not going to get moved because, you know, somebody needs to go to violin that lesson, and somebody else needs to go to football.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Well, it that what you just said ties in so beautifully with one of the things, one of the things that I how home to the women that I work with. And that is making today your one day. Because how often do we say, oh, one day I'd love to do that? One day I'd love to do that. Oh, yeah, you know, but whether it's your bucket list or whatever you want to call it. But by turning that one day into Tuesday the 30th, right, there it is. You're making it, yes, that is there. That's in stone now. That's something I'm gonna do. We're going to do.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, I think that that's absolutely important. I think it's absolutely important. I'm not so much on New Year's goals, right? But I think, you know, New Year's, maybe you plan the one days, right? Yeah, right. Like, you know, I want to go back to Pompeii and I want to see it again. We're planning that trip on January 1st, right? Because I think anything like that that we we punt, then we end up feeling, what are we doing here? Like it's not worth it.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

No. It's it's gotta, as you say, we gotta escape the grind. There are some things that we can't get away from doing. You say that life, yeah, life will fall sadly fall to pieces if if we don't get the groceries in, etc. Totally, totally. Yeah, but there has to be whether we call it the carrot of of meeting up with people, something to make us go, yes, today's gonna be an even better day because I'm meeting up with my people later on.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

And it can be small too. I want to say that you've mentioned some big things, but like, you know, it could be I want to go to this farm stand and get rhubarb so that I can make a rhubarb pie, right? Like there's certain things you love to do every summer, every winter. You know, instead of saying, I'm not gonna go to that shop, I don't have time today, you know, make that that's part of that one day syndrome, right? Is like I want to make sure that I do these things, right? I just did this. I was visiting my parents who have both been sort of dealing with elder care issues, and there's this like one ice cream place. And I thought it is cold, it is the beginning of the summer, but I bet I won't get back here. So I sat in the car and I had myself a little ice cream, and I gotta tell you, it was well worth it.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

I love that. I love that. But that really epitomizes what we've been talking about in terms of friendship and kindling and taking those steps and and pushing ourselves a little bit, not to be uncomfortable, but to find ways of making ourselves feel comfortable, if that's the right word, by limiting the anxiety anxiety. Yeah, I don't I don't mean comfortable in in a lazy, oh, doing it again and again. I mean so we want to do it again, because that's what it's all about, isn't it? Yeah, it is all about make it a good ex a could a good experience so that you're with you found people that you like, you think I'd like to see them again, I'd like to talk to them again because they get me.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

And that all finding your people comes back to me to that interest factor. Do you have something in common? And when you have something in common, right, you just can you can launch into conversation. It's not as awkward, and that awkwardness, I think, keeps us shut in because we're like, oh God, I'm gonna go to that dinner, I'm not gonna know anybody, and it's gonna be awkward.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

It is that kind of I mean, there's nothing wrong with silence, but when it is that kind of silence, when you're literally thinking, I've got nothing to say here. Nothing nothing to say, your brain starts going off thinking about something else, and it's like someone then asks you a question, you're like, I wasn't even listening.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Well, and I think like we also I think think sometimes that our particular interest is so niche or so unique that there's nobody else. But that's again where the internet has come into our lives and changed everything. There are groups for everything, right? So, and and there are activities, there are you know, trips, there are even cruises, for goodness sakes. People take murder mystery and true crime cruises. And I know some of your listeners are like, ew, but I mean, as a true crime aficionado, I gotta tell you.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

You and me let's get let's go together then. I love true crime. I am a closet miss mopple. No, I'm not actually not. There's been no closet. I will say, I don't know if it's a little joke in our family. There's a TV show in the UK called Midsummer Murders.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Oh my god, I love that show.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

They film, they film it literally all around where I live. The duck pump. Oh my god. I know, I know. It's a little it's a little joke between my son and I. Do you know they film Midsummer Murders around here? Our local church, all in Midsummer Murders.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

We'll have to have another conversation. And that these are the kind of places I would show up, right? Like these are the kind of places I would want to go because I love all that. Oh, you know what? I think they do tour.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Yeah, I don't think they do tours. I should start doing, I should start doing the tour around where I am of where they film midsummer murders.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

You should. You could run the tour. I well, you know my dog is named Sherlock for Sherlock Holmes.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Oh wow, that is a cool name. That is a cool name.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

And he is very mischievous, like his namesake. He gets into everything. I actually had to empty my trash bin this morning because when he comes back in my office after we finished filming, if I leave the office, he will get into things. He is just very smart. He's a poodle and very mischievous. But I loved, and that's why I was sort of a quirky, unique kid who didn't have any friends, because I grew up going to my grandparents every afternoon. And, you know, they were World War IIers. So I'm reading the longest day and talking about D-Day and like, you know, playing these games and watching, you know, Miss Marple. And my grandfather's the one who introduced me to Agatha Christie. I used to read all those books and he would give them to me, probably at what was like slightly an inappropriate age to be reading about murder. But that I didn't have any ability as an only child to connect to other kids. I didn't know about music and stuff. I didn't know about pop culture. I knew about Miss Marple. So that's but this is part of the finding your people. At my core, right? Even though I learned about pop culture and I learned about all this stuff and I found friends in high school, I would tell you that at my core, that little girl, that Miss Marple girl, that's really who I am. And so when I go to find my people, I have to think about what are the things that light me up inside. And now we're not dealing with popularity and everything. We can be like, that's what lights me up. It's a little strange, but this is what I love.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

I always say that. I always say we are old and ugly enough now to if we try if we try something and we don't like it, we can say, Caroline, Kate, say to yourself, I've tried it, I didn't like it, and give yourself permission to go and find something that does light you up.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

One of the themes in the book that I really bring forward, but I think it applies to when midlife women, not just neurodivergent folks, is a choice. When we were raised, Gen X, boomers, everyone, we were really raised with you're lucky to find some people, you're lucky to fit in, fit in with some people and kind of take who's in your midst as friends. And that I think has been thrown away. I don't think that's true anymore. And I think we need to give ourselves permission to have choice. And part of that choice is how much do I want to be social, right? Am I an introvert and I don't need the same things as an extreme extrovert? And then what lights me up and who do I want to be with versus just kind of going along to getting along?

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Yeah. I love that. I think that's a brilliant, a brilliant takeaway to end on. Now we're gonna give you contact details in a minute, but choices, drum roll, please. What a segue. I am now going to ask you to give me three of your choices. Do you see what I did then? So I'm about to ask you the same three questions that I ask each of my guests. And the first one is what is your midlife anthem?

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Um, I would say don't stop believing by journey because I I am an optimist, and there are certain things I go to when I feel down. Uh, and I talk about this in the book. I talk about all my little rituals of like when I'm down or when I feel like life is too much, you know. And one of the things I love to listen to is don't stop believing by journey because I think there is like a, you know, um whenever I hear the opening bars, I get that just goose bumpy feeling.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Goose bumpy feeling. Oh, I'm here, I'm here. Oh, I love it. I don't actually, I think you're the first guest to choose that as well. It's going on the playlist. I'm rather excited. So your midlife, I mean, that would be a really good midlife mantra, but do you have another one as well? Or are you using that for your midlife mantra as well?

SPEAKER_00 49:10

No, I really like the phrase the rising tide lifts all boats because I feel like we can all lift each other up. And that's really how I try to live my life. I really like I just was hearing about an expert who's so fabulous, but she's just not as well known as I am. And she should be. She should be on everybody's lips. And I was talking to someone who works with her, and I said, Oh, well, you know what? When we go to the international conference on ADHD, I'm gonna introduce her to just everyone. I'm gonna put her there, I'm gonna put her there, I'm gonna do this. And that's kind of how I try to live my life because people did it for me, right? So I was very lucky in my life, and I still am lucky that people are, you know, whether it's try this karate school for, you know, my son, or hey, let me help you in your career. And I like to live my life that way.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

No, I'm like that, and I think we should celebrate people like that because there are enough people out there that sadly want to bring you down, and those are not our people, are they? They are not our people.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

No, and I I think part of midlife is I can spot those people a mile away, and I want nothing to do with them. I want nothing to do with them, and so often it's so sad going back to friendship, where like I love the husband of a couple, but the wife is that way, and I'm like, sorry, not doing it.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

No, no, but we can do that now. We can say, no, it's a shame, but not got time for you. Last question, then, before we go into your contact details, what is the title of your autobiography?

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Okay, so I love Winston Churchill like a lot in a weird way. Um, but whenever I feel sad or bummed out, I will take to my bed and I will watch um Winston Churchill movies or documentaries or something like that. And it just something about the fact that he was afraid but kept going, it really resonates with me and always has, and that he was flawed and imperfect. And, you know, we know some of his prejudices and things that really haven't aged well. But then we also know that he said, you know, I won't be cowed. And so whenever I need courage, I kind of go to Winston. And and this is not just because you're a British podcast, this is the absolute truth. Anyone who knows me knows that this is how I am. And so keep buggering on is like is really like the the title of my um book because I feel like that's kind of in moments when I'm just like, oh, I can't, then I I will think that, you know, and I love keeping calm and carrying on. I have that sign in my basement, but the problem is I don't really keep calm, I'm never really calm. No, calm. What's that? So I really shouldn't. It would be like hypocritical of me because I'm like people I know would be like listening to this, going, like, but you're not calm.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

No, it's not it's not a word that describes me either calm, no. I like that. Keep buggering on, keep buggering on. For any listeners that are like, right, I need some Caroline in my life. All your details are in the show notes for our episode, and you've got your guest profile on the Midlife Unlimited podcast website. But please can you talk us through how listeners can get in touch with you, how they can get your books, and come and say hello.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Please do come and say hello. I love that. So um at author Caroline M is my Instagram handle, my YouTube channel, everything like that. I make real, I know everyone will be shocked. I make real YouTube videos. So I make videos that go deep into a topic or a subject. So they're not like superficial, um, because I don't really do superficial, as everybody who's listening can have gleaned within this hour. Um, and then um my Instagram, I have just tons and I have tons of things that I'm sharing, like get this book, you know, and then and then talking about all these topics. Um, and then friendship skills for neurodivergent adults is available in the UK. Um, it is available as an audiobook in the UK as well, um, which while no one play with me has been harder to get in all of the realms. Um, so Australia like could not get the audiobook um for my last book. And so I made sure um and partnered with Hashat UK to make sure that it's everywhere because we love audiobooks nowadays and we love podcasts and that kind of thing. Um, so wherever books are sold, um, and if you have any trouble also, please let me know because then I will go to the publisher and say, you know, so-and-so went to, I know it's at Blackwells, but like so-and-so went to Blackwells and it's not there or it's not available, and I will get them to fix it.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

Oh, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. And listeners, I would love your feedback on today's episode. We've covered so much and I've loved it. Thank you so much, Caroline. So it'd be fabulous if you could leave a review or subscribe and like. We like that very much. Um, and you can connect with me via the link in the show notes and head over to the website as well. Again, the links in the show notes where you'll find details of how you can work with me one-to-one and by joining more M-O-R-E Exclamation Mark, which is my award-winning all-in-one coaching programme that combines one-to-one with group coaching. So, thank you so much for joining me today, Caroline. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for listening, everyone. Uh, look forward to you tuning in again next week. Don't forget Midlife Unlimited has a new episode every Thursday available wherever you get your podcasts. So, here's to being fabulous and flourishing together and living midlife unlimited. Thanks, Caroline. It's been brilliant. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Thank you. Bye.