EP 10 | Old World New World TRANSCRIPT
Kristi Mayfield (00:01)
Have you ever been thrilled to try a quote unquote reserve wine from California only to find out that reserve doesn't actually guarantee a thing about the quality? Or maybe you felt completely lost trying to decipher wine labels with terms that seem to mean one thing in Europe and something completely different in the United States. Here's the kicker. Mexico is labeled a new region?
Even though Spanish missionaries planted vineyards there as early as the late 1500s, that doesn't sound very new to me. It's time to question the way we've been categorizing wine for decades. Are the terms old world and new world outdated? Or do they really help us understand what's in the bottle? Or add to the confusion. Today we have a special guest who'll break down these labels and reveal what they actually mean or don't mean for modern wine drinkers.
Stick around, you won't want to miss this eye-opening discussion about old world wines and new world wines, so hang tight, we're about to launch.
If wine terms often don't make sense to you because there's no formal definition there's really no rules or regulations around how they're used, you're in luck. And I can totally share this experience. several years ago, I was on a tour of Amsterdam. When walking through the Red Light District, our guide introduced us to the old the new Now, the old church was built around 1212 AD and the new church around 1408 I'm...
thinking why the heck is a church called the New Church when it's more than 600 years that make new we're made no sense to me at all and I'm sure you're wondering where this relates to wine but again who am I to shirk names often used in wine think we should call them into question. Do they have an official globally agreed upon definition?
Do they have specific requirements which must be met in order to use them? Or are they simply words that somebody or some organization has been using forever that caught on and don't really have a true meaning? With me today is Kelsey Kramer, Director of Education for the William Criss Wine Company in Texas, as well as the Hill Country Wine Academy. And I'm gonna do a little bit of bragging on her as she was recently named one of Wine Enthusiasts 2024
future 40 tastemakers. I recently attended the Hill Country Wine Academy's Texas Wine Ambassador class where Kelsey challenged us to consider whether the terms old world and new world have any real meaning or value and I'm thrilled to have her here on today's episode.
Kristi Mayfield (03:02)
we're super excited, Kelsey, that you're joining us on today's episode. I'd love for you, first of all, to share just a little bit about your background of your wine journey and why this topic is so interesting to you. But before we do, let's go back to the wine Future 40 and tell us what that meant to you to be nominated and to be part of the group.
Kelsey Kramer (03:23)
it was well first I'm super excited to be here. I love this topic. I'm really excited to be talking with you again about it. Future 40 was one of the most unexpected things that just kind of hit my year had not even been thinking about, you know, positioning myself to be on a list like this. So it wasn't something that I had fathomed for my future and it's
It hit this year and unexpected and the thing to happen in a year where I was really questioning what the future of wine was for me.
it was really a confirmation that
Kristi Mayfield (04:02)
I love that.
Kelsey Kramer (04:03)
this is the right direction for me in wine. I don't need to give it all up if there's a period of burnout that happens to everyone. So it was very reassuring. think I'm having the right conversations.
Kristi Mayfield (04:14)
I that. I love that. And so how did you get from your starting point in wine until that culminating point in your wine journey?
Kelsey Kramer (04:22)
I'm an actress, so this, the whole wine thing hit me by surprise. And I think that happens to most people. I'm certainly not the only person who found wine unexpectedly later in life. But I had gotten my acting degree from Ball State University, which was a fantastic program. I was all set to go into television, which I thought was going to be the next big thing. I was totally right about that, by the way. Television is awesome right now..
Kelsey Kramer (04:49)
I moved to Chicago to get that done and I walked down the street into a restaurant because I come from hotels and hospitality as like a summer job in between my acting career. And when I walked into this restaurant, it hooked me. The wine list and sake list were phenomenal and I'd never been introduced to such a sensory experience. And so from there, I just dropped acting all together and dove into wine.
And then I moved back to Texas, which is where I'm originally from. And so it only made sense for me to focus on the local product, which was surprisingly And that industry has hit me as much by surprise as everything else that I've just listed. So now I am fully entrenched in the Texas wine industry and educating as a primary part of my job.
I love that. you know, this is the topic we're talking about today is a topic that you and I have engaged on. And I gave a little bit of background about, you know, your Texas wine ambassador course. And this is a key element of that. And it's it's a complicated topic, though. So I thought today, you know, let's not just break it down, but let's kind of talk about it in three different buckets, one being just the terminology around old world wine, new world wine.
Kristi Mayfield (06:06)
Then let's go into what that means, if it does mean anything to wine styles. And then of course, engage in the what's next. What are the alternatives if these terms really don't have a place going forward in the wine industry? So, wine lovers are often confused about a lot of the terms in wine, not just old world and new world. these are...
Kristi Mayfield (06:32)
what we call categories or regions. So how do they kind of fail to provide some kind of meaningful information around a wine style or wine flavor? are they relevant
Kelsey Kramer (06:43)
certainly have been relevant. to be clear, think terms like this are needed. They may have downfalls, but the wine world, which is so massive and ever-changing, we have to categorize it in some way. so Old World versus New World has been a way to kind of split the wine world in half. The problem is that it's become outdated and it's left behind some
Kelsey Kramer (07:10)
ancient countries that have been, involved in the beginning of wine, but then have not been included into the old world section. And then there's the ever changing style of wine that, you know, if old world and new world have meant certain things for a long time, that changes and style changes in response to consumer habits changing, then
the terms either have to change with that or else we risk confusing and that's currently what's happening is I don't know that those terms are changing with the times and so the suggestion has been to kind of drop them and move on.
Kristi Mayfield (07:49)
Right. And I think our audience, you know, if we limit what we've traditionally called old world to really kind of Western Europe, exactly what you're talking about, you're talking about those French countries, Georgia, maybe Slovenia, Croatia, who haven't necessarily historically been part of the old world category. But to your point as well, they've probably been creating wine and producing wine.
whole world.
Kristi Mayfield (08:17)
for longer than that. So when you think about the terms themselves, I mean, when you first learned these terms through whichever organization or whatever course it was, what was the definition How did you memorize it? How did you think about it?
Kelsey Kramer (08:18)
Much
this is a common way to split up a wine list for a wine bar or restaurant. It's, you can split your wine list by New World and Old World. And it's a suggestion for consumers so that they know what style of wine they may gravitate towards generally so that they can cut out half of the list that they're looking at and just focus on what their style is. And when I was first introduced to these,
I was introduced to them in that way and they were tied to geography. So they're tied to a specific place, which we'll come back to later as an issue now. So Old World place is, as you say, Western Europe, and it includes a set of countries that have been making wine consistently for a longer time than these other regions that haven't been making wine for as long. And those are called New World. So Old World style from these old world
countries and it traditionally means lighter in body, lower in alcohol, less fruity and or more mineral driven, more terroir driven, terroir being of the earth, having to do with soil and sometimes more earthy as well. then New World would be the flip of that. would typically be more fruit driven and less mineral or earth driven.
Kelsey Kramer (09:51)
Sometimes it's associated with more oak as well, but not always. And then fuller body and more alcohol as well. And there's a difference in the acidity as well. So old world would be more acid driven and new world would be less acid driven. So those are the most traditional terms as I know them and they are tied to a place. They're not just a style that can be made anywhere. That is what is changing is now these styles can be anywhere.
you brought up centuries and, you know, I always laugh because in Texas, we always talk about how did wine get to Texas and it came up through Mexico, through the Spanish missionaries in the 1500s. However, Mexico is not old world. And like it's over 600 years of winemaking, yet it's considered New World. Yeah, that is, I think that is a challenge to exactly what you were talking about that that categorization.
Kristi Mayfield (10:45)
And another thing that I typically think about and I kind of like your thoughts on as well is, know, wine making and I'll call it the rules and regulations around wine making in these regions. I, to me, that's almost a more logical way of thinking about it than geography because old world is a little bit more strict again, which does make it more complicated.
Kelsey Kramer (10:55)
Thank you.
Kristi Mayfield (11:08)
And then new world is a little bit looser terms. So can you just share your thoughts around the winemaking principles of it?
Kelsey Kramer (11:17)
Yeah, that's where it gets interesting is because then it's not tied to place so much in the same way. We're not talking about regions that have been making wine longer than other wine regions. We're talking about the European Union, which has legislation that controls wine style through grape growing, yield, and winemaking practices. And then you have labels in this old world in the European Union where they won't denote.
the grape variety because it's not considered as important as the style dictated by the legislation of the region. And then you have people that break out of that mold like Alsace in France, labels by grape varieties. So even in that definition, where there are some wines in the world that are controlled by legislation that says you can...
Kelsey Kramer (12:06)
you can do these things to your wine, but you can't do these other things to your wine and you have to grow a certain amount of grapes and you can't practice certain things like acidification or whatever it may be. Tying old world to that says something very different than tying old world to places that have been making wine longer than others. the definition has changed to try and encompass that. But when you have places that break out of the mold or you have new world regions, and I'm using my,
Kristi Mayfield (12:35)
quote unquote, yeah.
Kelsey Kramer (12:35)
quotation marks here. Every time I say it I'm using the quotation marks. When you have
a quote unquote new world wine region that is heavily managing their yield, their winemaking practices, and practicing the same low intervention but strict winemaking guidelines for themselves, self-imposed, then would they be considered old world? Not traditionally.
Kelsey Kramer (13:01)
And so even with the definitions
changing in this way, there have been concerns about it becoming exclusive.
Kristi Mayfield (13:08)
Right. And then I think about you mentioned Alsace and I always think about kind of the I'll call it the rebellious super Tuscans. I mean, they were considered a little bit rebellious at the time that they came onto the market where the rules and regulations that surrounded the region in Tuscany and in Italy, where they were growing different varietals than what the governing bodies said they could grow and make the types of wines that were expected. They said, you know what, that
mold of tradition and regulation doesn't fit what we want to do as winemakers, the style of wine we want to produce. So they said, forget all the labels and all of that good stuff. We don't need to be a reserve or a classico or anything like that. We just want to be really great winemakers. So where do they fit in? It's kind of a new world mentality, but yet they're making.
Kelsey Kramer (14:02)
New world mentality, but probably still
making wine in the same style that has been associated with the old world, just with different grape varieties. And you have a lot of that. You see regions that have been completely redefined in the old world, like Alsace. The last 50 years of Alsace looks very different than the hundred years prior. Same with Barolo and Barbaresco, relatively newcomers.
Kristi Mayfield (14:08)
Yeah. Different grapes.
Kelsey Kramer (14:28)
on market and their style has changed back and forth over couple of decades from what would be considered a new world style to an old world style and then back and forth. responding to consumer habits. So I think that's what it distills down to is consumer habits are driving wine style around the world. And that is what's causing this massive change between new world and old world terms. And you find more
Kelsey Kramer (14:55)
producers breaking out of the mold of what they're associated with. So then the terms become problematic. we find a lot of producers and regions who are working with both, they're making New World style and Old World style wines in their same collection, even with the same great varieties. And you see that all over the place. And so that has turned the New World, Old World terminology.
Kelsey Kramer (15:20)
from a geographic reference to a stylistic reference. So now they're more heavily associated with style, but that tie to geography still hasn't left us.
Kristi Mayfield (15:33)
Right, and that's absolutely the perfect segue into bringing up the nuances around wine styles that the traditional, and I'll use my air quotes, quote unquote, old world styles or old world wines are, as you mentioned, traditionally a little lighter, lower in alcohol, a little bit earthier and not as fruit forward. And then of course, the new world, I call these kind of the rebellious wines, they're bolder, fruit forward, higher in alcohol.
a little bit just bigger and bolder. again, these stereotypes still kind of exist. But when we put those stereotypes on the wines, what might we be missing?
Kelsey Kramer (16:13)
There is always bias when we use terminology like this and that's what, when we first spoke about this, I was giving a talk on the bias centered around these terms. There are a section of people that believe that old world will mean higher in price or better quality or depending on where you're from, people may associate new world wines with a higher price a certain type of quality or meant for a certain..
Kelsey Kramer (16:40)
type of setting. I've heard before old world associated with age worthiness and food. While that may be true a lot of the time, it definitely sets up some people to be mistaken and age the wrong wine that doesn't need to be aged but is from France maybe. And then there's, on where you're from, there's bias against these as well. Certain people will exclude
Kelsey Kramer (17:07)
all European from their preferences because they've had one European wine they didn't like. They were told that that was Old World and that therefore they don't like Old World style wines. Same with the New World. You can have someone who's had one high alcohol really fruity wine and didn't enjoy it and they were told that that was a New World style wine and they need to stay away from those. So these can be
heavily biased. I don't like the terms because of that. Just the terms old and new. You gravitate towards one or the other because one comes with vintage and if it's not vintage it could be too old or you know there's something that's vintage is charming because it's old but something that's overused is old and ratty or past prime.
And so these terms old and new, because we're all so different and our past experiences are so different, we can really throw bias onto these things that are supposed to be dividers of the world of wine for our benefit and they become a negative.
So I think what you just dispelled is that while in theory these terms are supposed to help guide a buyer in general, mean nothing in the world of wine is always exclusive. These are generalities that if you like this style of wine, then old world might be kind of the area you should steer your preferences in your purchasing and your drinking habits and vice versa with New World. But these
Kristi Mayfield (18:39)
these labels have actually superseded the intention and now could be either causing these biases and really discouraging wine lovers from trying diverse wine options that might be exactly what they want to experience, but the label is creating this barrier.
where you have someone who feels like they've been told that they enjoy New World wines, but then they go to a producer in the New World that's making Old World style wines. They don't necessarily know that. They buy the wine and they're confused why they don't like it. And then it becomes a conversation that they...
need to be having. This is for professionals to figure out so that the consumer can have the most streamlined, easy experience possible. And old world and new world has crept from talk down to now that the everyday consumer is using to describe what they like, but maybe not.
I don't know that all consumers are clear on this discussion and why everything's changing. And we're changing something that was probably like a safety blanket for some people who feel, okay, I don't know much about wine, but I feel really confident. I like old world wines. And now that that's changing, we're ripping that safety blanket away from people.
Kristi Mayfield (20:00)
Yeah, that's a really good, interesting point. So, know, consumer preference or perception and this perception around wine in general, I think has my, I guess in my opinion, there's some perception that all of these terms can also make wine instead of something we can enjoy every day. It should be on the table. It creates great experiences, great memories, great conversation, building of relationships.
Kelsey Kramer (20:26)
social connection.
Kristi Mayfield (20:28)
And we've made it so aloof because of all of this layer upon layer of complexity and terminology. And so this changing term, I guess, and we'll get into kind of what the alternatives might be. Am I hearing you correctly when I think you're saying some of the just this layering of labels probably been part of what has turned people maybe away from wine into other beverages or away from the wine industry overall?
Kelsey Kramer (20:54)
away from
the wine industry completely, and sometimes not even in favor of other beverages. It's just away from something that feels aloof and confusing. Yes, and I have a pretty strong opinion about this that I'll share it as just an opinion. But I think that when we started exposing professional language to the everyday consumer through documentaries that show insight into the industry, we saw a huge shift in
Kelsey Kramer (21:22)
were more people who wanted to enjoy wine, which was fantastic. There were a lot of people who wanted to transition from being a consumer to becoming a professional in the wine industry. And then we sort of crossed wires and professional wine language became something that the everyday consumer was then expected to know, which I don't think was the intention. there, and I give a series of classes, I give WSET
Kelsey Kramer (21:50)
classes, they teach professionals how to effectively use wine language for the purpose of assessing things like quality, food and wine pairing, service choices.
also teach other courses and you've taken one of them, Texas Wine Ambassador Certification Course is the course that our school created so that people who are serving wine can use language to effectively bond with their consumer. we talk about the way that you speak about wine in two totally different ways there. In learn how to use our words to assess professional things about wine and in the Texas Ambassador Certification, we do not use the same word.
and I don't think that those should be mixed together because the words that we use in WSET can be alienating, they can be ineffective.
They are the words that have now crept into consumer everyday knowledge saying that this wine smells and tastes like cherry. In my opinion, that doesn't tell a person whether they're going to like the wine or not. tells someone whether the great variety is Pinot Noir or Cabernet Sauvignon or the ripeness of the cherry will tell you the climate that it grew in. But that is not for the consumer to worry about. That is for a professional to use to put the wine in front of the right consumer so that
they will enjoy it to the fullest extent. And I think crossing those boundaries.
Kelsey Kramer (23:16)
has led to lot of insecurity with consumers who feel like they need to understand where the cherry's coming from in their wine or what this old world is, a new world, and there's this feeling that they need to understand wine to that level. And you can, I'm happy to teach anyone WSET terminology, even if you're a consumer, but it is not needed for everyone who just wants to sit and enjoy a glass of wine that they like.
And that's my strong opinion on that. think we really crossed the world and I think it did a service to us and a disservice at the same time. And now left to change hopefully the industry for the better and resolve these things.
Kristi Mayfield (23:54)
our backgrounds are very similar going down the WSET path. And, you know, when you get to the upper level classes, it's exactly that way. And being someone who is a wine educator, just like you are, I'm constantly trying to take what people now know, or at least their reference point, which they don't maybe actually know what it means, but
they know the word, it's out there. It's kind of like the rules in football. You know there's a holding, which is a penalty, but you might not know what that means. Translate that to wine and you may know these terms, you've heard them, and you are expected, it seems, to understand what they are. So breaking that down and bringing it back into common everyday language that's just about enjoying the wine journey, enjoying the wine experience, I think is something that we all as educators
Kelsey Kramer (24:26)
can.
Kristi Mayfield (24:47)
are focused on doing and I know that is my like number one purpose of Everyday Sommelier podcast is so that there's no judgment, there's no pretension. It's just good old, let's congregate around wine, let's share what we love with no Yeah. Yeah.
Kelsey Kramer (25:02)
whatever point you are with wine, and it's so
expansive and ever-changing, one should ever know everything that they need to know about wine. And that needs to be a safe space for people to play around in and then be able to say, you know, I've reached my limit to how much I want to know about wine, and now I'm just going to be enjoying it not feel the pressure to keep.
studying the many regions and varieties of Italy. You know, there's a limit for everyone and they should be able to call that out really comfortably.
But winemaking styles driven by consumer preferences, and I love that you keep referring us back to consumer preferences,
are kind of bringing those two former worlds more into the same space?
Kelsey Kramer (25:43)
Yes, I'm glad you keep talking about winemaking and I want to come back to it, but the forces that I see that are driving stylistic differences in wines are consumers in the market, which is the choice of producers in reaction to the market, climate change and just weather.
and learning more how to deal with the climate that we've been given. It's not just climate change, it's understanding how we can adapt to things that we've always had in a better way. Even if climate wasn't changing, we would still be changing the way that we react to the climate. Even if it was still consistent, we're learning more than we knew before. We're never gonna just make the wine the way we always have.
climate and weather, but also technology. And that I think we don't talk about enough. And we talk about it all the time, but technology is changing everything in wine. Even if climate wasn't changing, technology would still change the way that we make wine or the way that we are able to use new machines, new, just there's so much.
Kristi Mayfield (26:30)
Great point. No, we don't.
Yeast!
Kelsey Kramer (26:47)
I have so many things that I want to talk about on this, but we're going to be limited. But technology, think, is a huge factor. And technology in reaction to climate change is a whole separate discussion. So there's technology, there's climate change, and then there's both together and how they're reacting to each other. All of those are factors, and I think price is as well. So the economy will drive a lot because if wine continues to get more expensive,
Kelsey Kramer (27:13)
there will be limits to how much we're able to do things the way that we always have been. The industry as a whole may change in order make wine in a more cost effective way or attract consumers who are willing to spend more on wine or maybe we need to change things like packaging in order to just level out all of these considerations. winemaking is
Kelsey Kramer (27:37)
part of what it all ties back to the stylistic differences between old world and new world. I think that winemaking has really driven the change that we've seen so far with these terms. They were tied to geography and that was pretty exclusive because of regions like Greece, Croatia, Georgia that are kind of left out and shouldn't be. Or I heard them being called ancient new world and so new terms were being created.
Now these terms are more associated with style because of winemaking choices and I'll extend that to grape growing as well. Grape growing and winemaking or wine growing, however you want to say it. differences in style I've heard synthesized as this, that Old World is a low intervention method of winemaking the intention is for the wine to speak of the place where it grew.
And this can be done anywhere. Any winemaker can say, hey, I'm going to do open top fermentation. I'm going to crush in the field. I'm going to use native yeast or I'm going to macerate on the skins for a more mineral or earthy feeling. of that can be achieved anywhere in the world by any producer who is also making wine in the then new world style, which would be your
or manipulated wine. It is, and I'm not saying manipulated in a positive or negative connotation here. Manipulated meaning using more machines to get the job done. These have included like a difference between hand harvesting would be your old world choice and machine harvesting would be your new world choice. Again, there's no negative or positive with this because
Kelsey Kramer (29:20)
It's a spectrum. can have someone who machine harvests and then does open top fermentation and otherwise tries to be low intervention in every way. I think it's like sustainability where there is a spectrum. You make a certain set of choices and they skew you one way or the other on a scale. I think that has been one of the more effective ways to discuss old world and new world style wine and to kind of pull it away from geography.
Kelsey Kramer (29:48)
to be completely effective is the question, but I think winemaking choices have a lot to do with changing those terms.
Kristi Mayfield (29:52)
bright.
I agree. So if we, you know, in an ideal world, let's say we were able to completely move away from these traditional labels. One, what would be some alternatives that we could or should consider? And then on the flip side of that, what would potentially be the for those in the wine industry on understanding
things like terroir, mind-making techniques, wine styles. mean, could they live together in a same way? What are your thoughts around it? In an ideal world, Kelsey, what would you have us do?
I think that we could save the old world and new world terms for the textbooks when we talk about the history of wine, that these two sections of wine emerged and then they kind of dissolved as wine became more experimental around the world in reaction to consumer preferences and winemakers experimenting with different ways of doing things. And I think that we can speak about it as terminology that is still relevant to describing the past of wine.
I don't think we need to never say those words ever again because they did mean something at some point. They were a part of certification courses like the Court of Master Sommelier, which used old world and new world as the beginning of their blind tasting assessment. Now it's less relevant and there have been issues brought up about it. And so those terms have been dropped from the Court of Master Sommelier's program and we're entering the future of wine. And so...
In my ideal world, we would just use exactly what we mean to describe the wine. So if the wine is low intervention, we wouldn't say it's old world in style. We would say it's low intervention. And then we would explain what that means. Or we would say that this is a fruit forward wine with big body. And that's our new world style. We can go straight to exactly what we mean and not cover it up. And I think that
Kelsey Kramer (31:53)
with what we've done exposing consumers to professional terminology, how refreshing would that be to just say what we mean about the wine? And then if unclear for the person to say that's super unclear, what does big body mean? And then have a, this is the discussion around wine that is so romantic. It's the interaction between an everyday consumer who doesn't need to know a thing about wine, but is curious because a professional said something that was confusing.
Kelsey Kramer (32:20)
And there's a moment of learning and enjoyment and bonding. And I think for some reason we're so scared of using the wrong terminology because it'll bring up questions. I love questions. This is what my career is built on. Classes are so boring without people questioning why I'm using the words that I'm using.
I couldn't agree more. And I've tried to, you know, kind of even create some fun terminology just to make people understand the why behind things. Like I can break wine down just in general in two styles. One is I call them the predictables. And the intention of the winemaker was simply my consumer loves this wine and I want to create that experience for them bottle after bottle, year after year. And so these are the parameters in which I'm going to make that wine in order to deliver that.
Kristi Mayfield (33:08)
It's kind of like a champagne house style or any big brand. And then there's the authentics, which is more, I don't want to use the word old world, but in the winemaking techniques we've been talking about, less intervention. Mother nature gets to sing her song every vintage and what she delivers. Yeah. And so, you know, just using terms like that to just help people understand that wine isn't necessarily made for the same intent and purpose or in the same way.
Kelsey Kramer (33:09)
and then.
Speaking of place. Yeah.
Kristi Mayfield (33:36)
And you may want, on Tuesday night, you wanna know what you're drinking and you're gonna get that same experience every time. But on Friday night, you're going to a new restaurant and you want something that's a little more authentic to represent maybe a better pairing with your food or just explore a little bit more. I think those are, not that mine are the best terms, but I think that style of wine education is more attuned to getting people to have those conversations that you're talking about.
Yeah, I think we're talking about dialects of wine language. If wine is its own language, then everyone's gonna have their own dialect. They should be able to, you know, have the accent that they have. So if it's way to you, I may express that completely different. My wine will be, is consistent wine versus adventurous wine, and that's the way that I'll phrase it, and you can phrase it the way that you phrase it, but because
Kristi Mayfield (34:29)
Except.
Kelsey Kramer (34:30)
the way that we express ourselves differently through our tone, through our patterns of speaking, through body language. All of that is used to describe wine as well. So there will be clarity if we all choose to speak about wine in the way that fits and our current pattern of speaking. I think we're trying to get too restrictive on wine language.
No, I completely agree. And I do think that there is a different language emerging around wine. And I think you've talked tremendously well about the need for it. I don't want people to fear wine. I want more wine on tables because I think there's such a beautiful experience that's being missed. If that isn't the case, I mean, it's been part of our human
DNA for centuries and it's not that I'm condoning go drink more wine But it's the experience that wine can bring that I don't think you get with with maybe some other Beverages, I definitely don't get it with a diet Pepsi in my hand
Kelsey Kramer (35:32)
anything else. I'll argue it. Yeah.
Yeah, it's, we, we risk wine language destroying the joy that we have around wine. If we're not able to use it to delight people and we restrict ourselves to outdated terms, we, we risk just continuing the fear mongering around wine.
Kristi Mayfield (35:52)
I agree. So let's go back one to a point. Obviously, you and I are both in Texas. So the Texas wine industry is really exciting, in my personal opinion. So how does Texas wine and how are Texas winemakers either fitting into this conversation or maybe, you know, are we seeing them say,
Kristi Mayfield (36:12)
I'm going to stand on my own and I don't need a specific label in order to exist and grow my brand in this world.
Kelsey Kramer (36:20)
I do see a lot of Texas winemakers choose to use the terms new world and old world like any wine region would because those are traditional terms of the industry and so they're easy to gravitate towards, especially when you're a developing industry, which we very much are. I won't say we're at the beginning of our journey, but we're definitely somewhere near the middle and so we are currently defining what the future of the industry is. are
terms thrown around, and I will say when they're thrown around, they're pretty equal. There are producers who are making New World-styled wines, as traditionally described, and Old World-style wines as well. And where I work, we talk about it as a spectrum. So on the spectrum of classic New World to classic Old World, and we specify that these are historical terms used for historical styles of wine.
is a spectrum and the winery that I work for falls all across that spectrum. I have seen in Texas that people use old world to refer to the soil of Texas, which is interesting. I've been told that we have old world soils and I'm not sure what that means. I'm not against us saying that. To me, what that would say
Kelsey Kramer (37:36)
And this is based on what I've seen from Texas wine, tasting so much of it in the last couple of years, is that the soil of Texas, depending on where you are, the soil of Texas heavily expresses itself through low intervention wine. And even through some more manipulated wine, where there's more oak presence on the wine and a lot of fruit.
Kelsey Kramer (37:58)
There is a through line of minerality or earthiness or soil expression. Sometimes it's a dried violet thing. Sometimes it's desert sage. We have all different ways of describing this, Texas wine is highly associated with the soil that it grew from, how old it is, the makeup of it, the mineral content of it. And so we often talk about ourselves in
comparison to California because of course it's naturally what we're most compared to being in the United States and California being the leader of wine in the United States at least for the last you know 50 to 100 years. We are really compared to California wine and that's where you see a massive difference. The wines of California tend to higher alcohol, fuller bodied. This is partly due to the great varieties being used.
Kelsey Kramer (38:48)
It is partly due to climate. It's partly due to the length of the growing season. In Texas, we have such different conditions on all fronts that I just mentioned that we find our wines to not necessarily be higher in alcohol or fuller in body. They certainly can be because Texas is so large. You find all, all styles of wine, all bodies. They do tend to be very fruity, but
Kelsey Kramer (39:15)
really balanced by this soil expression, especially in the lighter bodied wines and more medium bodied wines. And so I, I really think Texas fits somewhere in between and can attract both people who have traditionally been attracted to New World style wines and Old World style wines. But I would describe this without using those terms is Texas has a strong expression of the soil in their wines and the
Kelsey Kramer (39:43)
geological makeup with a fruit-forward profile that you would expect in the United States.
Now, whether the winemaker is using low intervention techniques or not, that will define it further. But there is no denying that the limestone is really expressive in Texas. It's a heavy, heavy expression through the wine, which is, I think, what excites people about Texas wine.
Kristi Mayfield (39:54)
correct.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Yeah, it just gives it a little bit of a verve, guess, if you think about it that way. any other elements of the topic, old world or new world, before we kind of come to our conclusion and I'll ask a couple of questions and make sure I've got the points correct.
Kelsey Kramer (40:22)
Yeah, just the conversation around technology is what's going to be ongoing. The question is going to be whether low intervention means the same thing when we're able to grow grapes in a greenhouse setting that can replicate the ideal climate for a grape variety or when we can use machines to give us low intervention styles of wine, but consistently and in a higher quality.
Technology will change everything and saying that low intervention is the new old world is maybe not going to be accurate going forward. I think speaking about it as a spectrum is a positive way to move forward.
So there's a whole world of wine that is probably talking about this same topic in a very different way depending on what side of the market they're on in wherever they are in the world.
Kristi Mayfield (41:14)
I agree. And the topic of technology, I'm so glad you brought that up. I brought it up on, I believe it was episode two, just referencing the fact that as wine enthusiasts, or even if you're in the industry and you have one of the elite certifications, like an MW or MS, because of things like technology, because of things like climate, because of...
all of the changes we're seeing and all the dynamics in the industry. Nobody will ever know everything, Enjoy the journey and make it a lifelong experience versus thinking you have to get that PhD and then walk away.
So as we kind of wrap up today, in essence, when you talk about wine terms, not every term that we currently use in the industry has a quote unquote official meaning. And a lot of times we are creating confusion and maybe even misleading the wine enthusiasts. So in simplest terms, old world could be translated to European wine region.
Kristi Mayfield (42:08)
or European grape varietals or wine making techniques, but it should be, like you said, a spectrum. It shouldn't be a physical imprint on a map that says everything in orange is old world, right? That we have wine making techniques, vineyard practices, labeling, you know, all of the regulations that put it into that bigger defining box, but it's not as tight as we once thought it was.
Kelsey Kramer (42:32)
Yeah, I think we should leave the overarching terms in the past when they were effectively used that way and we should go forward speaking about wine as a spectrum where winemakers have heavy influence on the style of wine that is created and by consumers.
Kristi Mayfield (42:51)
Food and Wine magazine had a quote, you know, simply put, old world wine doesn't exist anymore, at least not in the way we once knew it. So when you talk about one of the leading magazines featuring wines globally, if they are saying that it doesn't necessarily exist in the way it once did, we do need to redefine it or make it more loose and a reference point, not a hard and fast point.
Yeah, that's really interesting. I see where they're going with that. And you could argue that all wine is new. New style is being defined now. Maybe we're future world.
Kelsey Kramer (43:30)
Old world, new
world, future world. We're somewhere in middle of all of that.
Kristi Mayfield (43:33)
Just put them all in a pot and ferment them together. Co-fermentation. Good. So now that you, our audience, know what the terms mean and don't mean, you essentially are armed with everything that you need to enjoy a glass or a bottle of wine without...
Kelsey Kramer (43:36)
Yeah, co-ferment it all.
Kristi Mayfield (43:52)
being restricted by these expectations or something that somebody says is in the bucket of old world or new world. So consider yourself now liberated and able to drink the future world wines that Kelsey talked about.
Kelsey Kramer (44:08)
We've officially
coined that term. Future wine is for everyone to use.
Kristi Mayfield (44:13)
Future wine for the world! I love it. Well Kelsey, this has been such a great conversation and I love your passion around this topic.
Kristi Mayfield (44:21)
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