12 - Sign Singing in The Rocky Horror Picture Show

Christine Malec has been obsessed with the idea of sign singing since she first discovered it at last year's Disability Collective presentation of The Rocky Horror Picture Show. With Rocky 2025 right around the corner, it's the perfect time to make her dreams come true and have an in-depth conversation about the art form. So Christine and audio describer JJ Hunt hopped on a zoom call with a master of the craft, Gaitrie Persaud-Killings, theatre-maker, Deaf interpreter, Deaf music performer, and director of the RHPS's all-Deaf shadow cast.

For more information about the upcoming performances on October 28th and 29th, please visit the event page: www.thedisabilitycollective.com/rockyhorror2025

And to see demonstrations of Rocky-related ASL signs mentioned in this episode, check out the vlogs posted on the Collective's Instagram feed: www.instagram.com/disabilitycollective/

For more information about The Disability Collective, or to learn about other upcoming events, please visit TheDisabilityCollective.com.

Transcript

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Welcome to The Disability Collective podcast. I'm one of your co-hosts, Christine Malec. This year, The Disability Collective will once again be offering its unmatched presentation of The Rocky Horror Picture Show. This will include a screening of the original film with live audio description provided by JJ Hunt. It will also offer a live, all-star, all-d/Deaf shadow cast directed by by Gaitrie Persaud-Killings. Gaitrie is a theatre maker, Deaf interpreter, and Deaf music performer. The Rocky Horror Picture Show will be presented at Buddies and Bad Times Theatre on October 28th and 29th. Part of the ASL shadow cast performance will involve sign singing. I personally first learned about sign singing for the first time last year and frankly, The conversation we're about to have is one I've been dreaming of since then. In this virtual space, we have sighted audio describer JJ Hunt, Deaf director, performer, and Deaf interpreter Gaitrie Persaud-Killings, an ASL interpreter, and me, Christine Malec. I'm blind, I'm an audio description user, and I'm also a singer. I've dreamed about this conversation because As a singer who experiences the world non-visually, my mind stumbles when I try to imagine what sign singing is, how it's done, what it looks like, and what it feels like, both to perform and to spectate, as an ASL-speaking spectator and as a non-ASL-speaking spectator. I have many questions. We gathered on Zoom, keeping our cameras on. listeners will hear an ASL interpreter voicing Gaitrie's words. In a conversation like this, there are some interpretation delays and occasional side questions. We used phrases like Christine speaking and end of thought to help with clarity. In editing this podcast, we left some of those natural and genuine moments in, but some have been cut. to help keep this audio-only version of the conversation flowing. I'm going to begin by asking you, Gaitrie, what is sign singing and how did you become a sign singer? So I'll begin with actually the second question first. I have a family who absolutely loves music. And so when I was hard of hearing a little bit more and I was growing up, I became fully deafened. And so as a Deaf person, I never forgot that sound and that feeling from my youth. I can think of my dad and my father, and they would always teach me the feeling of the music and things like feeling on the speaker, the sound of the music. And so that music, know, the, the bass rhythms or the beat that would just absolutely give me chills. And I would see my family dancing to it I could see the joy on their faces. And they absolutely loved dancing as well as music and being involved. My family doesn't know sign language and so it was one of the ways that I found to communicate with my family is through music and through dance. Later on, when I got my first job as a singer with an artist named Rosina, with a band she runs called LAL, Rosina taught me about different music in a visual aspect and as I was learning a lot from Rosina, I was able to connect that with the music. And what was important was the lyrics as well, finding all the metaphors as well as different sound elements and working together with a hearing interpreter where we would discuss and expand on what the lyrics meant, what the sound sounded like, was it a happy beat, was the rhythm fast or slow? And so working through all of these various elements. And then later we would design and show different elements, for example, using a tactile vibrating vest to be able to feel the beat and being able to use technology to develop that element. became absolutely enamoured with music again. It became my escape. You know, it's almost like similar to reading for some people, being able to have that echo of vibration, whether it be through headphones or on the floor, you know, or from standing beside a speaker, but just being able to really feel that music. You know, as a Deaf person, I absolutely love music. You know, in the environment that we are in, you know, it can lead to the Rocky Horror Picture Show, which is a very popular movie. You know, it came out way back in the day and still is something that is very commonly known amongst folks today. And the music is just, you know, fun and dirty. And, you know, it really has an identity of its own and it helps to build that, you know, confidence and explore the weird. And so within the community, we have all these different d/Deaf folks and d/Deaf performers. you know, as a director being able to teach them sign music as well. Because within sign language, there are accents similar to a vocal accent. So the different ways you would inflect or speak and communicate sign language has that same element, depending how your hands move, what your body language looks like, how your facial expressions go. And so tying that all together, it creates an element for the audience, either d/Deaf or hearing, to be able to enjoy the visual complexities of the music through sign language. So we use our sign to replicate all those musicality elements from the audio into a visual format. End of thought. I wonder, Christine speaking, I wonder if we could take an example, because as someone who has never seen sign language, then my mind is still having a little trouble understanding how it becomes song. And so I'm thinking of the song in Rocky Horror where it's in the lab and Janet is singing, ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta- ta-touch me. I want to get dirty. And so there's a lot going on in there. There's a stutter and then there's a repetition and there's her emotion of being provocative. And would it be possible, Gaitrie, for you to talk us through that line and describe what the signs would normally be, or maybe just pick one, and then explain how you turn it from a word into a something that is sung? End of thought. Absolutely. So with that line specifically, touch me. or ta-ta-ta touch me. There are elements where as opposed to just using a hand with, you use the one middle finger for touch, you might show something a little more musical for that dirty element to have an open hand that touches your body in a number of places, which also gives a rhyme to the sign dirty, which shows under the chin. And then it shows that element of playing off of Rocky. So you've got the literally touching of your body to show the sensuality element. And you're also moving your body, like your shoulders and your chest, to match the rhythm and the sound. And so you're using that to play with Rocky as well as show what the actual lyrics are. Similarly with Creature of the Night, that one song. When you have the creature of the night and you're trying to pull the audience in, you become that element where as the monster, you were quite literally using your hands to pull the audience in, in a way to really get into the night kind of element. And so you're trying to show that physicality in a way that is much more melodic in your movements and in your face structure with the grammar on your face. So it's creating a character of desire, so to speak. in a way that you might not necessarily do if it was spoken language only. And if I may, I don't know if this is helpful, Chris, but if I may, as we're communicating here on Zoom, we've all got cameras on. And as Gaitrie is talking and using this language, as she's saying things like shimmy shoulders, she is shimmying her shoulders, right? When she's talking about touching first, she talked about touching and it was one hand to another hand. And then she was touching her chest and you know, you could see like visually her, the sensuality was both in the gestures and the way they were being performed and conveyed. I'm not sure if that helps extend that a little bit. Yes, thank you. My next question was going to be for you, JJ, because I'm wondering about... the transition or the difference between speaking and singing. And for me as a hearing person, I can tell instantly when someone switches from speaking to singing. And it would take a fair amount of words to explain how I know, but I instantly quickly know. And is that true for ASL speaking versus sign singing? So when we talk about normal conversational ASL or speaking sign language, so to speak, and musical ASL, it does look very different, like completely different. So when you're singing ASL, there is a rhythm to your signs as well and body movements to your sign as well. Like for example, that shimmy of the shoulders, the rolling of the shoulders while pulling it in. You're showing echo with each shoulder roll. It shows an element of echo as it keeps going back. So and then you've got your hands coming in with the lyrics to actually in pull in and enthrall the audience Whereas if we were looking at just kind of normal conversational ASL It would just be like monster of the night monster creature of the night. It is much more static so to speak Whereas with the singing it has that fluidity and element to it to really show the musicality So even in something like night where the sign is normally just one hand over the other and goes straight down for creature of the night, might start from a much higher place and then slowly bring it down over your hand to show the extension of the word night. Christine speaking, is there an overlap to dance? Is there a moment or a series of moments or a way in which this also becomes dance? Because I'm asking because As a blind person, I've recently been learning a bit of ballet and exploring how I could tell a story with my body without words. And that's a very complex idea to me, almost as complex as these ideas. And so Gaitrie, when you are performing, is there a line between sign singing and dance or do they start to merge for you? End of thought. It does very much merge and blend together. So when you're dancing, there is definitely a lot of work to encompass both of those elements. Right now, as we're in rehearsals, everyone's doing really good with blending the two. It's very exciting to see it come together, but it's very much blending. it's, you know, you're dancing and signing at the same time. So you have those body movements and there's also a lot, I mean, depending on the song, for example, the time warp. When we're doing, let's do the time warp again, you know, then there's also beats in between the lyrics where you're actually dancing and then you've got the element of actually following the dance that they tell you to do. So a jump to the left. So you might sign jump to the left and then you do the jump to the left. Then you sign jump to the right and then you do the jump to the right. So there's an element in that particular song where you're showing the dance move in separation from the lyrics, but they do blend together during the performance. Is there ever a time when the meaning of the sign word becomes um a problem because you're trying to sing the word and make a theatrical gesture? those ever conflict? Nope. think it's a very natural element, especially within Deaf culture, to be able to have that inclusion in your face and in your body and in your movements and with your hands. You already have so many of those elements as a Deaf culture. We kind of call it our superpower within the culture to be able to take those visual elements. We've already got the skills inside to do that. So for, know, like when we have hand signs specifically, If there are folks out there who maybe have no experience with doing any kind of performance element, it might be a bit more challenging for them. But for those of us who are very experienced with the performative world, we know how to make it work with the signs and with the movements and the theatricality at the same time. Likewise, there are elements like analyzing the video or the film of Rocky Horror and bringing certain elements from the film into the performance. And so I always definitely emphasize for people who are performing in this, there is an expectation from the audience and what they've seen from the film. And so you really have to be, you know, keeping that vibe and honour the energy that comes from the film within your performance as well too. So that's something that's very crucial within the, within the performance and something that we definitely lean on. You mentioned earlier Gaitrie, Ryan, this is something I'm fascinated with. I've got a good friend who's a language interpreter. She interprets, or she translates, I should say. Czech to English, but she doesn't like to do poetry. That's not her thing. Because it is a particular challenge to be translating, in this case, something that rhymes. I don't know how that, I genuinely have no idea how that works in Deaf culture. How does rhyming work in sign singing? Just clarifying between rhythm and rhyme, interpreter sign there. Let's do ASL in English. And we're taking a look at certain words that sound the same. In ASL, we have our translations that become visual in an element like, I'm trying to think of an example here. So for example, um when Janet is doing, Brad, and we have that element, oh, Brad, we will do it in a way so sometimes we do what is called a visual palindrome. So it. would be, Brad on the left hand doing oh, and then the sign for Brad. And then you would flip it to the other side of your body on the right hand side and go, oh, Brad. So that's one element for rhyme. Likewise, being able to split them and so doing what we call a roll shift when you sort of facing one direction and then you face the other direction, but you're using the same sign to show it in two different positions to show a rhyme element. Wow. Fascinating. So visually, Gaitrie was just doing that facing us the whole time, but shifting shoulders to the right. So it's the chest that is facing one. So you can maintain eye contact with an audience or a character, but you're still shifting your body. So your body, your torso is facing one direction or the other. If I got that right. Exactly. Oh, that is so interesting. Yeah, when it comes to it, you know, it doesn't always have to be dead on and even likewise with this, you know, Oh, Brad, you don't necessarily sign OH like you might conversationally. Oh, you can do things where like you cut your chest and go and just have that sort of intake to really show the as opposed to signing just OH. And so, you know, you have your in love moment with Brad. Oh, Brad, that is a moment where you perform it in that way. And that also lends to the musicality of ASL where it's you know, clutching your chest and then the sign for Brad and like even, you know, showing that shoulders raised, that element of like a faster beating heart and putting that within the lyric. Likewise, another line where there's, you know, my heart is on fire. Yeah. When Brad uses that line, you could sign heart is fire. But instead what we do is we show with the hand, we show the beating of the heart getting faster and then going up into flames. And so it, you you start fanning yourself afterwards. So as opposed to saying, my heart is on fire. You're like, you show the pumping heart, you show the flame of it. And then you start fanning yourself because you're feeling the heart on fire. So if you were at a work meeting and someone started signing in that way, would, would it instantly tell you they were moving into theatre mode or? over dramatized mode. I'm trying to understand how a viewer conceptualizes those shifts from straight up communicating with your hands in the way that you're used to and what they see when you start dramatizing. Yeah, you would absolutely be able to identify if someone started going into a musicality mode because the way the body starts going, the hands get bigger, even the legs start moving, the face gets much more expressive and the hands really start to go out beyond your typical sign space. Whereas if it's a conversational moment in the meeting, it stays within between your shoulders in a way where music tends to extend beyond your shoulders. Okay. incorporates much more of that movement, the walking around, the whole body kind of rolling and flowing with the music. So you definitely would be able to tell if someone were to switch from conversational ASL to performance ASL. Thank you. And so JJ speaking, I can imagine there being a situation, Chris, like you've talked about, you're in a meeting, you're in an office, and someone breaks into, you know, a joke mode and their voice kind of shifts a little bit, they get a little nasal, they get, you know what I mean? They kind of... They tilt their head and suddenly they're talking a little bit goofy. know, there's something, there's a tone of the voice that shifts that is clear and obvious to someone who interprets through sound, not through sight. I think that's comparable. I'm starting to get the sense of the fluidity that's true in hearing and speaking and singing and in movement and gesture and signing. As a singer myself, I have a question. In songs that are expressed vocally and verbally, a singer sometimes is complimented on things like the power of their voice or their vocal range or the feeling they convey. What kinds of compliments does a sign singer get? How, Gaitrie, when you are... at a performance of sign singing, what makes you say, wow, that performer is amazing? So many comments are around the visual elements. A lot of the energy is something that I see a lot too, having an energy that really matches the source performance. Also the aura. There's actually one person, I'll never forget the comment or that they said to me. was I could see your aura. Your aura was just absolutely sparkling. The way that the signs came off absolutely matched the musicality. And so a lot of that element is also again down to things where following the rhythm, if it's guitar and it's maybe a bit more fluid, ah but again, very much matching the energy is a huge compliment that we often see. So something else that this reminds me of, we haven't really talked about is the the ASL interpretation of concerts, which from my understanding, which admittedly is limited, seems like there would be overlap with sign singing, but same, same, but different is what comes to mind. Is that accurate? Is ASL interpretation of concerts different in terms of style, in terms of energy than... sign singing and like what makes a good ASL concert interpretation for you, Gaitrie? So they are similar in the sense of sorry, Gaitrie, they are the same in the sense of the musicality in the sign performance. The only difference is the context and location. So for example, hip hop, if we're talking hip hop and rap, it can be quite fast and furious and coming off the hands very quickly in a sort of staccato way. Whereas, you know, if we've got a rock concert, ah it might feel a little bit heavier in certain ways and a little more almost jerky in its movements, so to speak. Like it's got a very heavy sort of tone and feel to it. And so that's within the concert element, whereas, you know, pop tends to be lighter and flowier and we have these sort of elements up here. ah So there's a variation in the way that you would perform for those concerts. ah And also if you're on stage, you're not moving necessarily as much. Your feet might be more planted while your body encapsulates the movements. Whereas in a performance, when you are the character, you've got the character, the personality and the movement to show a bit more of an actual performance versus the more static lower body element of a concert. I think it's fair to say, Gaitrie, while you were talking, if I had known that you were going to be speaking about three different musical styles, But I didn't have interpretation. During your speaking, I would have known when you were talking about rap, when you were talking about like metal or hard rock, and when you were talking about pop music. Not because I speak ASL, but because I could see the rhythm in your conversational style. I could see the way you were bopping. So Chris, I don't know if that's of interest to you. Oh, absolutely. That's fascinating. I am not a theatre person. And so in any conversation, I don't know honestly what the role of a director is. But Gaitrie, you're the director of the shadow performance for Rocky Horror Picture Show. What does that role entail? So as the role of director, it's about knowing the story. being able to look at the performance of the actors and their skill set and make sure that they're able to match the character and helping them tailor elements that they perform to really match the characters of Rocky Horror Picture Show. So there are elements where we're looking at making sure the sign is congruent to the English language and that it's coming together, making sure that their movements are in sync, making sure the translation is on point, or even things like making sure the energy is on point. So if they're signing too slow or too small, So for example, you know, if Brad's showing a little bit of nervousness, it's not just about like kind of clutching your hands together. It's about embodying more of that. So things where it's like, oh, maybe we're playing with the glasses a little bit and we're kind of showing a little like jump in the body to show those nervousness. And so, you know, as a d/Deaf Brad and d/Deaf Janet, they're similar in the sense of Rocky Horror Picture Show, you are taking, even though those are hearing characters initially and you're a d/Deaf performer, you still need to show those elements and make sure that you've got those heightened elements. you know, if we're getting attention, for example, things that might happen where you're getting attention through the vocal element in the movie, we have to show that visually. So it might just kind of be a flutter of the hand. or a flutter of the hand might not be enough. You might have to actually tap the person on the shoulder to get the attention. So it's also about making sure that the characters are building their relationships. So using the example of Brad and Janet, really making sure that not only are they performing themselves, but that they're building their relationship together to show how much they love each other as well, and that that's being conveyed. Likewise, for Columbia, making sure Columbia Magenta also build their relationship together and that we get to see that. And so, know, with Riff Raff and Frank making sure that they have that connection, really making sure as a director that everyone comes together in the performance. It's key to really be able to show not only just yourself performing, but those relationships, because that's crucial to the story. Has it been difficult for you to shift from performer to director and to let go of the part that you, not just the part, Columbia, but the, the, the, place that you had in the performance last year of being a performer. Is it difficult to shift to the role of director in your own mind? No. Last year I did do both at the same time. I was the performer Columbia and directing at the same time. I really did enjoy it. I guess it's just something that comes naturally to me at theatrical passion. I know for some folks they might feel overwhelmed taking on the dual role, but I didn't mind it. And I just, love what it is that I do. Yes. You know, being director again, I think back to last year and I admit, you know, last year, obviously it was a little stressful having two different roles. Whereas now I'm feeling being able to really take more of a step back and really take a look at the overarching elements that are happening on stage. Likewise, having an assistant director this year has been really helpful as well. So they can help lot when it comes to various elements, like making sure that we're seeing everything happening on stage. So if something happens that maybe I missed, they're like, hey, this happened. it's, you know, this year, it is a little bit different in that regard. I also have an ASL coach this year. We have a choreographer as well. So that's very helpful in order to really delegate the different roles, which gives me more time specifically as a director to really build those relationships with the actor and focus on their performances and their characterization. The choreographer can focus on dance elements. The ASL coach can focus on building the translations and working on the translations because obviously in the film they speak quite quickly and there's a lot of English that comes down and so the ASL has to be condensed to get it out in the right kind of time frame. So I would say that's a big difference overall is that having more delineation of roles versus taking on two roles. So on the JJ speaking on the The nights of the show, I'm going to be providing audio description and I try and describe the movie. I try and describe the shadow cast. I try and describe the audience all at the same time. It's a lot. This is a good opportunity. um Gaitrie, would you mind explaining the relationship in the moment of performance between the screen at the back, the actors who are on stage? and any other interpreters that are assisting in the performance? Because that's an element that I don't have time to describe during the evening's performance. Absolutely. So we have the projector, which is the same as last year. And so there's the projection of the movie in the background. And I definitely encourage the actor to memorize their lines and not be depending on that background screen. And then we have interpreters who sit in the front who are supporting the performers. So if, for example, there's an element where an actor is starting to sign too quickly, then the hearing interpreter in the front row can tell them to slow down. So there's a bit of timing cues that happen there to make sure that everything is happening in the right speed. And that's all. So the interpreters who are there to support the shadow cast performers, there's an element of stage management that's happening as well that's maybe a little outside of what you would have in a normal interpretation relationship? I mean, I wouldn't call it stage management. It's more like assisting to make sure that the actors are on time. So they're feeding the cues, so to speak. So if an actor is kind of going ahead and the line is, so if that moment's already happened and the actor's signing too slowly, giving them a cue to speed up the signs to make sure that the timing's happening. Because one of the things that we've mentioned is how fast they speak in the film. And so as folks who can't hear the film. making sure that, you know, depending if we're in our moment and as a character and the interpreter or the hearing interpreter can see like, oh, hurry up, hurry up. And they'll kind of give a cue to move a little faster so that everything sort of lines up in sequence with the film. Yeah, that makes sense. Gaitrie, I have a question as a singer myself. If I go too long without singing, whether it's in my kitchen or... I also sing in the subway for tips. a busker and that's a role that I absolutely love because it encourages me to fill the space and sing as loudly as I can. If I don't do those things for about a week, I don't feel right. I feel not right. There's something unexpressed and it's almost like food or drink for me that it's something I need in order to feel balanced. Is there any way in which you feel that as a sign singer? Is it part of your emotional sense of expression and how you move through the world? Absolutely. I like quiet time as well, you know, to be able to save my signing sometimes, you know, being able to just breathe and read, know, drink water, keep hydrated. And I encouraged all the other actors as well too, to make sure that they're breathing and not get too caught up in the brain process and the cognitive demand of the singing. Cause it can be quite exhausting. So, you you want to make sure they don't forget to breathe and they can just, you know, shake it out and get back into it. So yeah, that's something I encourage them, is making sure that they're breathing as well as signing and that they take those moments. And yeah, the brain process is quite a lot, you know. thinking from the English language to the translation into ASL can be quite challenging for some folks, because you're also got the visual elements with the projector, which is projecting English. Then you've also got the element of the hearing interpreter. So you've got a monitor that's cueing you, hearing interpreters that are cueing you, the actors you're performing with on stage. There's like five different elements that you're trying to keep in your brain all at once during the performance. And so you've definitely got to make sure you've got an eye on everyone. And yeah, if I'm not performing for an extended period of time, it feels strange. It feels like something is missing. You know, I enjoy going out, you know, even if it's just with friends and, you know, going out at night and singing, but it definitely feels like something's missing if I'm not performing. Are there challenges that are particular to The Rocky Horror Picture Show as a story? I understand that doing a shadow play in front of a... The mechanics of doing that are very complex, but are there any specific challenges about The Rocky Horror Picture Show as its own story? Like performing in your underwear? Yeah, like that. I forgot about that. We haven't really noticed any challenges. Well, um it's sex scene, I would say can be a bit of a challenge. Yes. You know, some actors might feel a little bit awkward. eh And so that might be out of their comfort zone a little bit. And so obviously, it's important to have that consent and agreement. And if we can't do that sex scene, it doesn't really fit the brand of Rocky Horror Picture Show. Yes. Because, the audience is going to expect that that is a standard within the show. They expect to see that scene in that part of the show. So that's something with Rocky Horror Picture Show, you know, one of the themes is that sexuality and that element, that element of desire. That being said, you know, I'm starting to see the actors get quite comfortable in their roles. There is that mutual understanding. And also, you know, most d/Deaf actors They haven't seen Rocky Horror before. They don't know necessarily what it is. Oh, oh. So I've had to go in and explain all these sort of different elements to it and encourage them to watch the film, you know, watch the film every day, you know, and some of them came back and they were like, oh, oh, now I get There are so many elements that if you just look at the script that are conveyed through tone and emotion, so really being able to expand on, okay, what does that specific song mean? What does that line mean? And then being able to watch the movie to gain a full understanding of what it is. Now, on that note, like Rocky, the performance of Rocky, the showing of Rocky in a movie theatre is very different than watching it at home alone on TV. The audience participation is a huge part of the experience. What do you hope for in the audience? What do you want? Like what works well for d/Deaf audience members and the d/Deaf shadow cast? Like the shouting out of names, are there signs that the audience should, all members of the audience should be aware of? Should people be holding up signs as well as shouting out? Like, what do you hope for in that audience participation? So we did an ASL vlog that we've recorded, which teaches some specific signs. And we have that running up on Instagram with The Disability Collective. And so it teaches a few different signs that we do encourage folks, you know, during the time warp, for example, to be able to sign along. And so we encourage the audience on stage, you know, come on and do the time warp with us. And so there's that element. ah Likewise with some of the songs when they're singing, when you have the presenter, sorry, when a presenter comes out just before the show actually begins, they remind the audience that audience participation is part of it because we want folks to feel like they're truly in the world of Rocky Horror Picture Show. And so reminding them that, you know, like they've fallen through this black hole and they're in the universe with us and they've arrived at the castle in Transylvania. and that they're going to be in the castle with us. And having that element, I want the audience to really feel like they are invited to be part of the party and they're part of this show. JJ is in his natural element here with Rocky Horror. I'm a visitor, I'm a guest to Rocky, but JJ inhabits Rocky. I started doing Rocky in high school. I was in the shadow cast at the Bloor in the early 1990s. I've been on stage and I remember there being a real, there was a bit of a no-no to look back at the screen and see where you were in the piece. You really had to keep your pacing. So I can appreciate how much more difficult that would be if you're not only not looking, but if you're not getting the audio cues, how necessary it would be to have that communication with an interpreter who is who's facing you and facing the screen. What is the name of the butler guy? Riff Raff? Riff Raff. He's got a voice that is creepy and sinister and low and kind of a little bit scary. He sounds like someone who's devious. so how would you convey those qualities? visually Gaitrie. It's funny you should mention that actually yesterday I was working specifically with the actor playing Riff Raff. And so there, you I had to give them some encouragement or things like I need you to slow down a bit more. So for example, when they're just saying hello, you can't just be like, hello, and throw it. You need to slow like hello. Where the hand goes on and you want to make an eye contact that's almost disconcerting. through that eye contact so that the actor who's receiving the hello, know, it's like, again, looking back towards the film, if we see how Riff Raff really says hello, you know, I know you can't hear it, but just look at his face, look at the expression that he's giving, the body language during that simple hello. And we started to get an all like an understanding moment. Cause especially in Deaf culture, we get used to trying to, you know, go at speed and we're trying to move quickly, but Riff Raff is not someone who moves, you know, that fast. He is, you know, a bit slower. And so, you know, when it comes to Brad and Janet, you know, the film may not necessarily show a specific moment, like when they're standing together, but I encouraged, you know, to have Brad and Janet together. So when we see Riff Raff look over with that eye contact and we see the eyes shift and the hands start signing, we're showing that interaction. And that's another symbol of that, you know. hand accent, so to speak, to mimic the voice accent or the characterization within the voice. And so that was actually an aha moment. was a bit of a challenge initially, but we're getting there and they got there. So that would be how we're kind of showing the creepy element of Riff Raff. Hand accent. That is such a great phrase that really encapsulates as well. And in fact, I remember Hello from Riff Raff specifically when I did my very small breakdown of the visuals of sign singing last year in a podcast. used hello because I think it was Sage, correct me if I'm wrong, last year who was and the hello because the way riff raps is it's hello. There's a real dragging and I remember it being like a sharp start and then a slow lowering of the hand. And as someone again who doesn't speak ASL that was clear to me, but oh, accent. I love that. I'm going to store that one away. I feel that we could do this all day, but I have just one more example to ask for. When Frank-N-Furter, he uses the, I don't know how to convey this properly without it, but he says anticipation. And it's the best line of the film to me. so Gaitrie, could you? do or explain or do and have JJ explain how the d/Deaf actor will do that line? Absolutely. So we have this moment where it's almost robotic and the slow lean in anticipation. And it's likewise with the facial grammar as you your head sort of slowly starts to lean forward. And you have that moment where it's like looking around. And then finally finishing the sentence and sort of having a bit of a gap in there to mimic that audio quality of the going up and down. oh Similar how your tone would go up and down, the body language would go up and down. And that's again a huge key. It's not just hands, it's your body, it's your face, it's your hands. It's all of it coming together to create that performance. And visually, Chris, because I've now seen the word anticipation m with the pause. being signed a couple of times now. In each case, during that pause, the person signing has risen up just a little bit, started to lean forward. And then as they're about to fall, and everyone did it, as I was just doing it, everyone on the call did the exact same thing, which is you're waiting, you're waiting, and then there's a fall and catch moment. And it's that fall and catch moment that a sighted person if you are seeing someone slowly lean forward, you are anticipating. You are watching and waiting for, are they gonna catch? Are they not gonna catch? Are they gonna fall? And so in the performance of that, it conveys that not only the delay, but it's a delay that's gonna be caught at the moment. so, yeah, so everyone, the interpreter, Gaitrie, I all at the same time are doing the exact same thing visually with our bodies. you so much, Gaitrie, for this conversation. I can't tell you how much I've been looking forward to it and how I do genuinely feel a little closer to a place where spoken words and song words and dance and story and ASL are starting to come together for me in It's all about how we communicate a story or a meaning. And so this has been a beautiful piece of me trying to understand different ways that stories get told. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for having me. Those were the voices of myself, Christine Malec, audio describer, JJ Hunt, and an ASL interpreter verbalizing the words of Gaitrie Persaud-Killings. The Rocky Horror Picture Show will be presented at Buddies and Bad Times Theatre on October 28th and 29th. There will be live audio description and a live, all-star, all-d/Deaf shadow cast directed by Gaitrie Persaud-Killings. For tickets or more information, go to The Disability Collective website, which you can find in the show notes. We know you're looking forward to this with as much anticipation as we are.