Chapter Blue
Tyra Valeriano, host of Chapter Blue, comes with 11 years of law enforcement experience and talks about mental health, self-care, work-life balance and more. Through honest conversations and personal experience, Chapter Blue allows for officers worldwide to share their stories, struggles, and successes both on and off duty and to give the public an insight to what the media has made into such a controversial profession. The podcast will establish the connection to the important topics and struggles in law enforcement and open up to all first responder roles in the new year to address how interchangeable the roles relate to the struggle. Join the conversation, because it’s long overdue!
Chapter Blue
Nathan Clark on Navigating Police Culture and Adapting to Civilian Life
Imagine transitioning from a high pressure law enforcement career to civilian life and carrying with you the emotional toll and mental challenges that come with wearing the badge. In this episode of Chapter Blue, seasoned officer Nathan Clark shares his journey through 23 years of policing in Arizona, offering a rare glimpse into the diverse agencies he served, including the ASU Police Department and a reservation police agency. Nathan's stories discuss the unique challenges faced by officers and the adaptability required for each role amidst varying policies within each agency.
Listen to Nathan's personal battles with mental health set against the backdrop of a 'macho' policing culture. He opens up about the healing power of therapy and how he managed to balance his career with family life and personal interests. We talk about the portrayal of policing in media and its impact on career aspirations, family members, and understanding the importance of self care.
Beyond personal experiences, the episode also tackles other cultural issues within law enforcement, such as the challenges of internal investigations and the isolating nature of the thin blue line. Nathan sheds light on the political influences in policing, the evolution of technology like body cameras, and the complexities of maintaining integrity within politics. As we wrap up, we reflect on the transition to civilian life and the relief of leaving behind work related issues and staying vigilant in today's world.
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Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where we discuss the world of law enforcement through an honest conversation on tough or controversial topics, real stories, perspectives and experience from officers all around the world. Whether you're here for insights on mental health, self-care, work-life balance, getting into law enforcement, getting out of law enforcement, or just trying to learn about personal and professional challenges officers face every day, you've come to the right place. I'm your host, tyra Valeriano, and whether I'm going solo or speaking with a guest, each episode will discuss different aspects of life behind the badge. Let's turn the page and step into Chapter Blue.
Tyra Valeriano:Welcome back to another episode of Chapter Blue. It's been a wild ride jumping into the podcast space, but coming into a space where law enforcement can talk about mental health, leadership, experience and stories is becoming more relatable with each shared experience. Many of the participants to participate in their first podcast. Today, nathan Clark will be joining me as a first timer on a podcast, but he comes with 23 years of law enforcement experience and he is definitely not a first timer with the experience and knowledge he's gained over those years. So thank you, nathan, for your time and for joining the conversation. Tell us some more about your background and what you're doing today.
Nathan Clark:Sure, first off, thanks for having me, tyra. I'm looking forward to this. I've been following you for a while. So again 23 years in law enforcement. I was kind of a transient cop out here in Arizona, Started with my first agency with the ASU Police Department Very interesting learning of the university environment, I will say Did that for about first five and a half, six years. Then I just transitioned to this estate agency, worked in a state Capitol police for a while for about the same time, for about five to six years, and then I actually worked for a reservation out here. I don't want to say the reservation agency just because they are very they don't like to be exposed Very strict, but I worked for them about seven years, just because they are very, they don't like to be exposed Strict, right, very strict, but I worked for them about seven years.
Nathan Clark:That was an awesome gig, though, and then learned a lot, and then my last agency was a service office out here in Arizona Again, great agency. I learned a lot there, a lot of experiences as well. The majority of my career was focused on traffic enforcement, as well as collision investigations and assisting with homicide investigations and whatnot.
Tyra Valeriano:Very nice. What would you say is your favorite out of all four agencies that you worked for?
Nathan Clark:It's kind of a toss-up. To be quite frank with you, the Sheriff's Office is its own breed. All the jokes about being in, you know, with the sheriff's agency versus state or city are true. So it was definitely kind of the wild west a little bit. You really have to be on your feet, I would say that, and the reservation to kind of go one hand to hand, because you kind of have to be self-reliant, because you don't know how long your backup is going to be, kind of have to be self-reliant because you don't know how long your backup is going to be. So you have to be able to think quick on your feet but also basically take care of yourself, or even your partners at that, because, again, you're out in the middle of nowhere sometimes and your backup is probably going to be coming about 15, 20 minutes out.
Tyra Valeriano:Nice Well reservation. I've always had an interest in reservation police, Not that I've ever really looked into it, but do they get assistance from other agencies outside of the reservation, or is it just a standalone unit?
Nathan Clark:Most at least, out here in Arizona we have a pretty good report. The surrounding agencies, again, they are sovereign. However, they have the mutual aid agreements where if we need help, you know on the reservation, because of a critical incident or what have you we do have those agencies come out and assist. Usually it's the state or highway patrol. We don't have state police out here or it would be the sheriff's office, depending on which jurisdiction or county side you're on, because the reservation I worked for we crossed into two counties so and sometimes we would have a city agency come out and assist. So I mean it kind of played nice with the other agencies, but then when it gets down to business, sometimes they just kind of put their foot down and say no, we're doing this, you can, you can go now.
Tyra Valeriano:So I know you mentioned that you did traffic enforcement and I don't normally bring up politics at all, but it's kind of just reminded me of that time when Arizona started trying to identify people with their status. Trying to identify people with their status, were you having to do that while you were working in an agency?
Nathan Clark:And how did that work out for you? So the reservation we kind of had a little bit of freelance to do that because we kind of, again, we were sovereign, so we didn't necessarily have to follow state guidelines if we didn't want to, because we still had tribal law and federal law we had to enforce at the same time. So it really wasn't that big of an issue. We kind of toyed with it a little bit. But because again, it was a state law, the agency I worked for at that time wasn't really too worried about it. We did have a good rapport with border patrol if we needed them. So that was kind of nice.
Nathan Clark:But other than that we didn't have that much of an issue. I know surrounding agencies did. They created a lot of policies about that. I will say, when I transitioned with the sheriff's office, I did have to have a little bit of a learning curve at that point because I was still under the oppression. We were still doing that. However, at that point the law had changed so we weren't allowed to ask about status anymore per se.
Tyra Valeriano:OK, I was just curious because you know, with politics, like I said, I'm pretty sure there's going to be a learning curve coming up and I know that Arizona already experienced something like that. So I was interested to hear your side of the story, and I know that Arizona already experienced something like that.
Nathan Clark:So I was interested to hear your side of the story. Oh yeah, no, the closest I got with the politics was SB 1070, when I worked at the Capitol. I was involved in a lot of that, especially the protests that occurred down at the Capitol.
Tyra Valeriano:How was that working with protests?
Nathan Clark:That was in and of itself interesting. So I worked with the Capitol Capitol police at that time, so we were kind of our own entity. Let me just say I'm not a fan of large crowds anymore. After that, a lot of times we were stuck in the middle trying to save the agitators and we got pelted a lot by bottles, rocks and what have you, and it's a very unnerving feeling when you've got a lot of angry people yelling at you or whether you know. Obviously you know that it's not because of you but it's because of the badge and uniform that it represents. It's definitely unnerving when you have an angry mob mentality and you really have nowhere to go.
Nathan Clark:So you kind of have that kind of. I don't like large crowds because of that, in a way.
Tyra Valeriano:I can see that you know I'm curious because my podcast is it mainly circles around mental health and you worked for four different agencies. How were resources for you as a police officer working under each agency? Were they available or did they have any type of protocol that they followed, if there was something an officer needed?
Nathan Clark:So that is interesting. So growing up as a baby cop, you know, starting about 21 years old, I saw the change in how we do law enforcement when it comes to mental health. I really didn't see anything for us until about my last agency, the agency that I worked for. Then the sheriff's office started really looking into it, trying to take care of the line deputies, I guess you could say, and pretty much anybody, but I think they still could do more. But we were definitely starting to get psychologists on site, for if we had a critical incident we would maybe have a debrief. And I know one of my more serious events, more briefly, it was a quadruple homicide where basically everybody, including a child about age one, was beheaded and they just had me sign up or sign me up. I had a psychologist call me on shift one day and we had about a 30 minute debrief. So that's when they really started taking a look into it to say, hey, this is something we need to take, we need to adjust, just to be safe.
Tyra Valeriano:Right, was that 30 minutes sufficient for you?
Nathan Clark:So for me, at that time I wasn't too worried about it because, as you know, cops, we can compress our thoughts and emotions and feelings quite well and basically at that time I just kept busy with patrol calls and what have you, and so I really didn't put too much thought into it. But also at that point I had already seen enough, you know, homicides, deaths and whatnot. So I at that point I wasn't really too affected until later, later on.
Tyra Valeriano:Okay, and how did you deal with that?
Nathan Clark:The later on side. So what kind of kicked it into overdrive, I guess you could say for me was 2021 was kind of a hard one for me. April of 21, that's when it's still in court right now. I had a car chase that started down in southern Arizona and ended up in basically the metro Phoenix area and multiple agencies. I was shot at during my pursuit and ultimately an officer from a neighboring agency was killed as a result of it and I witnessed it. So that was kind of what kind of kicked it a little bit.
Nathan Clark:Um, that uh survivors remorse type deal, um, and then later on that about 20, a year later December November maybe, ish, when I was sitting in office after I had to go and help investigate a double fatal of two children teenagers kind of. What opened it up was one of the fatalities was a 15-year-old boy that pretty much mirrored my 15-year-old at home almost a spitting image and I had a lot of time to reflect and I'm like, okay, this isn't okay anymore, this isn't okay anymore. So at that point, that's when we had there was a law passed in Arizona where we can reach out for a counselor or psychologist free of cost, and we were allotted, I think about 27 sessions or something of that nature, and so I took advantage of that, and that was through my agency at the time.
Tyra Valeriano:And did that help you.
Nathan Clark:Um, it did because, um, as you know, we okay cops keep things to themselves. I really, um, didn't bring my work home a lot, I didn't talk about it very much, so I just compressed a lot of what I saw through the past 20 some odd years.
Tyra Valeriano:So okay, where are you somebody who talks to your family about any of the things that you experience on shift?
Nathan Clark:Yes and no. So I might say this is kind of what happened, but I don't go into details because that was one thing in the academy we kind of were taught was this is something you don't want to bring home typically to your family. And as I started going through my career, learning more about the mental health side of it, you know I've kind of learned about secondary trauma Whereas, ok, I might be the one seeing the trauma but then if I start talking to others that weren't there, they can start experiencing the trauma just by hearing the details and all that. So I learned real quick keep that to myself because I don't know how it's going to affect others Down the road. Obviously it affected me a little bit more than I probably should have allowed, but I was just looking more for the mental health of my family, you know, my children essentially, and everybody, friends and families and say, hey, you probably don't want to see this part of the law enforcement side, you know, or hear about it.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to say that. It's probably one of the unfortunate things about law enforcement is just, you can't really talk about what you see at work, obviously for legal reasons, especially if there's an investigation, but then, of course, when it's over with, you don't want that secondary trauma for your family. I can't say that all family members are the same, because you have your family members that are interested. They want to hear the war stories, you know, but sometimes you just don't know what they're going to react or say to the things that you've been through. With that being said, how do you think that your or maybe you don't know, I don't know do you think that your children saw a change in you when these incidents happen in 2021 compared to prior experience in law enforcement?
Nathan Clark:um, honestly, I don't know. So my, my children are much older now, um, during that time frame, all pretty much teenagers. Um, they're pretty um, aware of the job, because I kind of I do tell them, you know, this is one of those things where we see the good things but we also see the really horrible things that a man can do to each other, um, or to themselves, and um, I kind of get again, without putting any things into detail, I kind of tell them things. But the funny part of it is also so a little side bit is I grew up watching horror movies, which is probably why it doesn't affect me as much per se. But I've also got my kids involved in horror movies because they would sneak out in the middle of the night so they would watch those things. So they're a little desensitized as well. Um, I would say my daughter is probably more like me, so she understands a lot of it. Um, and then going, my two boys they, they're just boys, um, they, they're not too worried about it. So did they see much of a change?
Nathan Clark:I, I, I hit it pretty well, let's just put it that way um, um, so I again, I compressed a lot of it, everything was fine. You know, um didn't tell them I was doing therapy for a little bit. Um, just because, uh, as you know, cops were were kind of macho, so, um, I really wasn't sure how I wanted to play that one saying, hey, your dad probably having some issues here, um, you know, cause that's supposed to be the strong one, so. So it took a little bit, but again, once they realized I was doing that, they were like okay, that's cool. You know, good guys are doing what you need to do.
Tyra Valeriano:Do any of them want to be police officers when they grow up?
Nathan Clark:My daughter did, until she heard a lot of other negative things about the job. And then obviously you know watching the news, you know the political side of it, she quickly realized that's probably not what I want to be doing. And then my middle, my oldest son was thinking of it, and then kind of the same deal. The media, I guess you could say, kind of played a huge role in making their decisions at that point, because they initially did want to follow in my footsteps. But after seeing how cops have been treated within the past, you know, let's say five, ten years, it kind of really changed their mindset a little bit.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, understandable. How are you doing today after everything? How do you feel you've done since everything happened?
Nathan Clark:each day is better. Um, like I said, um, you know I, I kind of worked through a lot of that stuff. Um, it's always going to be there, obviously, so, um, but I'm not, you know, I'm not doing it as much, I'm not doing it at all, in fact, unless I have to go to court for anything else. But, um, you know it's interesting, the transition, um, going from being a cop to being just a regular person again. That in of itself is its own topic, just kind of a transition lifestyle you have to go through.
Nathan Clark:So I would say, not having to deal with the hustle and bustle of, you know, going call to call the adrenaline, all that stuff, I really that part didn't really affect me too much, um, because I was able to find other things to keep me. Um, I guess you could say level headed on that Um, but I guess you could say that the therapy helped a lot. Um, I'm more open into talking about it than, rather than just keeping it in anymore. You know, I think more or less just to be a voice for for some that you know are scared to talk about stuff like that.
Tyra Valeriano:Right and that, and that's honestly a really good message because, just like you said, there is this ego and macho perspective that or or I guess you can say we give out. As police officers, we can deal with everything and anything and we're not human. We, you know, we don't need to talk to anybody, but the reality is is that everybody experiences trauma in a different way. It doesn't have to be a crime scene, it doesn't have to be you know something job related, it could even be home life, it can be leadership. I had a guest who talked about leadership being the driving force of his mental health issues. So there's definitely an experience for everyone. I am curious to hear what were your hobbies before you became a police officer at 21? What did you like to do?
Nathan Clark:Oh, just anything outdoors, really Outdoor stuff hang out with friends, basically, go to the gym, you know, just movies, games, just very, very simple things. And yeah, that's really about it. I mean just learning new things basically.
Tyra Valeriano:So with your transition, would you say that you are able to continue those hobbies that you had back then, before you became a police officer?
Nathan Clark:Actually I tried to maintain a lot of those throughout my career because that's where I said I kind of kept my, was able to keep myself in check that way. Again, that was a promise I told myself when I started this career. First thing was no alcohol, cops and alcohol don't mix, don't, don't make poor decisions with people as well. So you know, I try to keep a level head because I had, before becoming a cop, I was actually a police explorer for about three to four years with a local agency out here and I got a lot of good advice from supervisors that were over us. So they kind of helped me figure out how to be a cop before I was a cop and gave me really good advice. So they said, if you have hobbies before, maintain them throughout your career, because that's what's going to help a little bit with, you know, your mental health, but also just staying in shape mentally, physically and emotionally. So I try to maintain a lot of those things throughout my career to help in between, obviously, call outs and whatnot.
Tyra Valeriano:So how is the transition been for you? I know a lot of people struggle with identity. I did. I struggled with identity for a while and I want to say sometimes it's still sparks up in there from time to time. I mean, is there any struggles that you've had since you've been transitioning into the civilian life?
Nathan Clark:Um, the only hard thing I could say, because I, when I was off the clock, I was off the clock, you know, I wasn't that gung-ho guy who, if I see something, I'm going to do something about it. Something about it, no, I I'll call, I don't want to get involved, not my circus. So, um, but I would say the hardest thing, working, or just I would just be, I guess I would say the work environment would be how to talk to people, because obviously we talk in a different language and I have to learn very quickly. You cannot talk a certain way to people in a civilian type job and even you know circles. You know you got to be careful what you say and how you say, basically read the room. So I have to. I had to learn really quick to go OK, so you're about the same age, but you probably can't, I probably can't say certain things or say certain jokes. You know, because, as you know, law enforcement, we have dark humor and sometimes it's a little too dark.
Tyra Valeriano:Right. It's funny that you said that. I can relate to that 100%. I still feel like I don't know how to talk to people and my husband thank God he's everywhere with me, so when he sees me falling off of a conversation he'll pick up for me because he knows, he just knows, and we actually just talked about it earlier today when he was just like you know, I'm tired and if we go hang out with these people then I'm going to have to pick up the slack and I'm just like I'm sorry. I'm working on it. I even even in the podcast I've noticed that in the very beginning I struggled because I'm so used to asking questions in a law enforcement manner and it's so weird asking questions to spark a conversation because I am interested. But it's like very difficult when you've been doing it for so long. You don't know what to ask and maybe you don't want to be too invasive and normally we're very invasive. So it's been an interesting experience. So I definitely can relate to you on that.
Nathan Clark:Oh, definitely I know. Um. Again in the civilian world I will say my bosses enjoy what I did because they they see that I hold myself with command presence. Still, they see the leadership qualities in me. So that's kind of the good part. But then on the other side of it, when I speak to new people at work they're like well, excuse me, I don't know if we can swear on this, but I'll be very not colorful. You're kind of like a dick sometimes, just the way you kind of talk to people or you look or you stand on like I didn't think I was, but you don't think that you are, because we're. So again, as you said, you're accustomed to doing things a certain way and a lot of people when they first meet me the first question is were you in the military? And if not, were you a cop? Because of how you? You know how you are, your demeanor, everything, because of how you are, your demeanor, everything.
Tyra Valeriano:And it's funny because I know exactly what you're saying and sometimes I still have that attitude. Well, I mean, that's what they think. If that's what they want to think, then so be it. You know, it's like I don't care. I'm not going to sit here and try to make them like me, or I'm not going to kiss their ass so that they can be like oh, she's really nice.
Nathan Clark:Yeah, yeah, so I get that.
Tyra Valeriano:So there is a topic that I am interested in discussing with you, and I think it's going to be very interesting, because you have worked for several departments, so you have a lot of insight on different jurisdictions, different leadership styles, even down to policies, procedures and law. The dark part of law enforcement for you can be different for everyone, but I'm interested to hear what was a dark part of law enforcement for you.
Nathan Clark:Okay. So there's a lot of that. So I guess you could say probably gonna make a lot of fans by saying this straight off the bat, cause I had this topic with somebody at work the other night, cause we were talking about something we all know the thin blue line, and it's all paraded as cops, family, this and that, but what they don't see is exactly how thin that line really is. As we both know, when things are good, it's great. You know you're either the golden child in your agency or you're, you know, everybody's favorite, or the go to person, this and that when things are good. However, when things go bad, you learn quickly in this job they're not there for you. That's just the straight up, one of the darkest parts of this job.
Nathan Clark:Being in many different agencies, you also learn real quick that you really need to just be well. At least for me, I learned I could only rely on myself. I relied on my partners for certain things, but a lot of it was nope, I'm not going to hang out with that group. I'm not going to hang out with that group because that group's known for being brown nosers. This group's known for getting in trouble, and that's not my cup of tea. So then you're pretty much an outcast, and a lot of times throughout my career it didn't matter which agency I was I hung out by myself after an incident at my first agency where I thought I could be open with a partner and they pretty much turned me in for something I didn't even do intentionally and I got in trouble for him like wait a second, that was just a conversation you and I had. Why would you do that?
Tyra Valeriano:And so that's when I said to myself.
Nathan Clark:Yep, I'm going to keep to myself because I can't trust this person. And you know, again, it gets down to a dog eat dog world. You know cops are in it for themselves in reality and you know I hate saying that, but that's that's kind of the reality of it is. It's no different than anything else. You know everybody's trying to do that career, climb that career ladder and whatever they have to burn, they will burn you. But again, also, 23 years, I've found myself on the other side of the IA.
Nathan Clark:You know, and we've all been there, and that in of itself I would probably say the darkest part of this career, because when you're under that of those, those that lovely word Garrity, um, you, that's a very lonely world. Um, you don't have friends anymore, you don't have anybody. Um, because as much as you want to talk about what's going on, you can't. And that in and of itself kind of goes hand in hand with the mental health side of this job, because you can't talk to anybody and you know the trauma that that puts you through in itself is a lot. You know a lot of stress, especially if you're worried about your career at that point, you know you, I know, working for my reservation. They do things a little bit different and I was kind of put on probation due to what's called a adjudication, where basically it's a federal review and I was in jeopardy of my job because it's a different standard, even though I met statewide requirements. I was told by my chief you may or may not have a job because of this review, based off of what other things that have happened in your past. That post doesn't care about it, but the feds. Due to the point system, you may not meet the standards. Now, um, so that was, uh, again a lot of stress.
Nathan Clark:And then, um, after I cleared all that, again, um, people talk, you know, and um, to your face, they're going to be you're the best cop ever. I later find out people are saying you know he's he, you know he's not a good cop, he's just not. He's always in trouble because they don't cause, they don't know the whole story, they just hear you know through the grapevine. This is may or may have been what happened and again, that's you know. Again, part of the dark side of law enforcement is the rumor realm. You know, we've all been there Rumor, rumor, rumor, and those can make or break your career and whether there's any validity to it. That's a really scary thing. You know we're supposed to be fact finders and objective and yet when it comes to internally, we'll believe a rumor just as fast as anything. And then you're going to go wait a second. What just happened?
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, you know, those are all I mean.
Tyra Valeriano:I've said it before and there's times where I've gotten heat for mentioning the thin blue line because that is such a huge topic and you have a lot of officers who will come and say, you know, I don't agree with you because this is the best job in the world. Well, that we're not saying that it's not right. We love the profession. We're not disagreeing with you, but these are the topics that I feel are glamorized and the truth isn't really there. The, the thin blue line some one of my friends actually told me the other day cause we had this conversation. He mentioned that the thin blue line is now what stands between law enforcement and society, rather than it being the family unit that everybody portrays it to be, and I thought that was very interesting. I thought, wow, that's, that's. I would say that's true. And then, of course, you know, everybody comes together in a time of need, when there's an officer killed in the line of duty or injured, everybody's supportive. But when it comes to you as an officer, feeling that family feeling, it really isn't that it's. It's very different.
Tyra Valeriano:And you know you talk about um, I call it blackball, you know if you go through something with your agency and let's say you decide to leave or you decide to apply for another department, you can get blackballed. You know conspiring with each other against you to say, hey, he did this, don't hire him, or she did this, and it makes it very hard for somebody to continue their career. And then again on the IAs of course everybody goes through those. But you literally just mentioned something I didn't even think about and that is a very lonely process because for me and my agency, everybody knew you were in an IA because there was a white envelope in your box and all somebody has to do is, if it's sealed and it has your name, oh, we know.
Tyra Valeriano:So everybody knows. They just don't know what it's about. So everybody's talking, trying to decide what you're going through. Why did you get called into IA? And just all of these crazy things. And, yeah, you can't talk about it. And I, and I think that that's one of the reasons why mental health is a problem, because even with those things that you cannot talk to anybody about, there's also the things that you're going through that you can't talk to anybody about because you're not supposed to right, you're a cop, you got to tough it out. There's no reason for you to talk about these things, man Like you're good.
Nathan Clark:Right, no, and again, going with that, you know it almost makes you feel I'll be very careful how I phrase this a little bit of empathy with criminals at times, because sometimes you are treated just as bad when you're under any kind of investigation or what have you. Because you know the one person that you know. I'll tell you right now from experience, one that I went through recently. Um, it was pretty serious, um, and I was cleared on one side of it and another side wasn't so much but, um, without getting into too much detail, but you know my circle of friends that I thought I had, you know, they were kind of there for a little bit, um, we didn't talk too much about it. And then, um, as things started slowly clearing out, um, that's when a lot of rumors were being said about me and I could hear what people were saying, what they were, and those friends eventually said bye, I'm not returning your calls anymore, I'm not returning your texts anymore. And again, you know we can get in trouble for talking about it. But one day I get a call from somebody from my old agency my old agency, mind you and the first thing out of the mouth was I heard you got in trouble for this. I'm like how do you know about this? Because somebody in the IA section is talking about it and that really, and there's nothing I can do about it at that point, because you know you're again. You're essentially where I worded it was you're guilty before proven innocent in any kind of an IA and and I get it, I you know, I was a supervisor at one point. I understand the administrative side of it, but I think there's got to be a better process to for that, because a lot of people I've seen throughout their careers either quit because of IAs or, worst case scenario, do self-harm because of the stress they, because again, it gets down to that you being ostracized, you, you can't do this, you can't do that. You're basically where I was going at the beginning.
Nathan Clark:When things are good, they're good. When trouble hits, you're just a number at that point and you're easily replaced, you're easily forgotten. It doesn't matter what you've done through your career, all the goods. It's really easy to say this is the bad stuff you've done. We can highlight this. We're not going to highlight the good you've done throughout your career, but we're going to highlight the negative things and I think that speaks volumes, you know there.
Nathan Clark:There there's that biasness when it comes to stuff like that and that's part of that dark side of law enforcement that, no, they don't tell you about you know of. You know, when you're in trouble, stand by you know, or even believe to be in. You know in trouble, stand by, you know, and again going with the dark side of it. It's quite the I don't know what the word I'm trying to say here, but it's like I guess the best thing is damned if you do and damned if you don't. You know, a lot of times throughout my career I would get in trouble because I was honest. I would tell myself people weren't around when something happened. I go hey, I did this. Oh, thanks for letting us know. Here you go. You're under IA, but I just told you what I did. What do I need to be under IA for now?
Nathan Clark:Right right you know so, and then I would see other officers or deputies or what have you do far worse but never got in trouble for it or, because of who they were and who they knew within the agency, never got in trouble. So then you also have that part of the law enforcement side of okay. So now there's unequal treatment, but nobody wants to bring that up. Nobody wants to bring up the whole. Wait a second. This dude did this this. This dude did that far worse than I did, and they're they didn't. They got slapped on the wrist.
Nathan Clark:Here I am sitting, you know, with either a reprimand or a suspension. You know how's that fair.
Tyra Valeriano:We call it the buddy buddy system, and I think what it is is. It's not that nobody brings it up. At least in my experience, they brought it up but it was denied. No, that doesn't exist. That's not true and it clearly exists. I mean, the buddy-buddy system is there and I do agree that we used to have this joke that the worst you could do, you would get promoted. So it's like, oh hey, who did really bad this year? Because they have a promotion coming up, we think they're going to get promoted if they put in for it. And I mean most of the time. I would say that there was a good handful of people where they did the worst during that year and they got promoted. So yeah, I mean, I do think it exists.
Nathan Clark:Yeah, absolutely so. I mean. So, yeah, I mean, like I said, said that's probably some of the darkest part of it is just, you know the the reality is nobody has your back and I hate saying that they don't have your back. Um, you know, and that was probably one of the hardest things I had to swallow, because I love the profession. I still love the profession, don't get me wrong, but that was part of the hardest thing I had to come to realization is is they don't care, they really don't. Even your administration doesn't care.
Nathan Clark:You know, um, because it starts from the top, and I think that's why it is the way it is, because I think, I think the reality is your, your people, you know your line level, people, the guys you work with every day. They probably do care, but because the way the job is designed, if you hang around a bad apple now you're gonna. You know um, what is it? Um? Guilty by association? Essentially, you know well, why are you hanging out with that guy? He's known for this and this or whatever she's known for this, and that you know um, okay, well, I'm not gonna do that anymore. So it's kind of ingrained subconsciously, I think.
Tyra Valeriano:Um, you know so I guess you could say the other part of the dark side is there's a lot of mental abuse within the job yeah, but it's never really addressed yeah, you know, there was some advice that I got in the academy and I can't remember who told me, but they told me that they told, actually, my whole class. I started with 23 people and we ended with five because the whole class practically got kicked out for drinking. Anyways, the five of us that were left, we were told that the only person to keep an eye out for is the name on your badge, or the name on your nameplate, which is yourself. And I remember that my whole career. I would always think about that. And I went to one shift party.
Tyra Valeriano:My entire career I never went to shift parties, and for a good reason. Mean you had people getting into IA because of shift parties or because of what rumor mill said, you know. So now you're under investigation for stuff that you did off duty, but it doesn't matter, because you're under the microscope regardless. And the one shift party I went to, I want to say I was already a supervisor and I didn't want to let my shift down. You know they're just like come on, you're a supervisor, you got to come, so I went and I went for two hours and I was gone, but that was it. That was the only time I went and I took that to the heart when somebody told me that and I'm glad I did, because a lot of new recruits these days they're not told that and we learn the hard way.
Tyra Valeriano:You know this is what it is is that you get into law enforcement and there's just all these things that you don't know and you learn along the way and then by the time you learn I mean there's some kind of destruction in your life, whether it's mental health, whether it's your personal life or something you did in your career that you didn't know. And now you're in trouble, and I'm hoping that this podcast is going to help people learn these things, because I want them to be successful. I wish I would have known some of the things that I know now, because I'm sure I could have helped myself in some areas, just like I'm sure you feel like you probably could have too. I know you said that you would you. Well, let's go back to leadership. You said that it starts from the top. So how would you say that leadership varied in agencies? Do you think that it was very different from each agency, or was it kind of similar and the experience was about the same when it came to that?
Nathan Clark:That's a tough one, I would say, from agency to agency. Obviously, on the outside it's all the same, you know, but when you really get down to it it really gets down to who actually cares, who didn't forget where they came from. When they get to the top, I guess what it gets down to. So that's kind of a hard one to answer, because each time there was somebody that would find me from the top and be a mentor to me or you know, I had people gunning it for me. You know, I had one commander at my first agency after, you know, I was making some mistakes here and there and one day he finally said hey, you're, you're doing great. Finally I'm like, well, thanks, he goes, you're no longer on my radar anymore. I'm like I didn't know I was on your radar. That was what he said to me.
Nathan Clark:And you know, again, going from agency, I would say probably the best leadership I had was when I worked for the state capitol. You know they supported us a hundred percent. I know one time I I was doing speed enforcement downtown and I stopped a legislator. I gave him a ticket. Yeah, I know how politics works.
Tyra Valeriano:That what happened?
Nathan Clark:Yeah, as soon as I got done with that cause, I stood my ground and you know my integrity. I was going to, I was going to you know, balk on that one. And as soon as he left, I'm like I'm probably going to get in trouble. But so I immediately called my boss and I told him what happened. He's like you did what I go. Yeah, I gave this person a ticket. He goes. All right, well, stand by. And sure as heck, I get a phone call from my captain within five minutes saying hey, meet me in the office, cool, let's go. And I will honestly say that was part of the best experience I ever had, because he 100% supported me in my decision Didn't didn't, did not chastise me or anything said.
Nathan Clark:we have a job to do. It doesn't matter who you are.
Tyra Valeriano:You understood that they're not in session, so they're fair game, you know for people who are listening right now and aren't familiar with law enforcement, they may not know that politics side. That we know. And of course you know you can pull over the judge's son and the judge is going to call it in and say, hey, you know this, I don't want this ticket for my son and guess what? The ticket's going to go away. And I'm not saying it happens all the time, but that is another ugly side is that politics play a heavy role in police work and we really have no discretion over that. It's like you are going to have to do your job but even though you're doing your job, there's somebody else who's going to tell you that you can't do your job and it's very unfortunate.
Tyra Valeriano:I remember when I first started. It wasn't that bad. But just like you said, the past five to ten years in law enforcement has changed a lot and things are very, very different. Has changed a lot and things are very, very different. Have you had a body camera throughout your whole career or did that just start, you know, in a more recent time?
Nathan Clark:No, I did have a body camera towards the end of my tenure at the reservation. Absolutely loved it, but I also hated it. I loved it because it bailed me out on a lot of complaints. You know how people are, especially the drunks. It cleared a lot of complaints. They don't like it because we were learning how to use them and sometimes you forget to turn it off and you're having those sidebars in the squad car and you know words are being said that probably shouldn't be said. Yeah, I remember I was talking to my buddy and we were just throwing out f-bombs left or right and next thing you hear is the, the buzzing going off, and we look at each other and we're like you didn't turn it off, did you?
Tyra Valeriano:both of us didn't turn I've been through that so many times yeah, um, but um, I absolutely loved them just for that.
Nathan Clark:Those reasons they they save your butt, and not just your butt but the agency's butt and also the citizens. You know it has its purpose. It's just an additional tool. I wouldn't say it's a save all because it's limited, just like anything else, but for I guess you could say, liability and transparency, but also just keeping people in line, it's a great tool. I think it's amazing. My last agency we didn't have them. I wish we did, for various reasons. They won't get them for a while they are from. What I was told is they are very against them and I think I know why. I can't really say too much right now, but I have a pretty good reason why they don't want them. Um, but they're going to have to eventually get to them.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, so do they use? Do they use a recorder at least?
Nathan Clark:Good old audio recorders. Yes, I remember those batteries last maybe a third of your shift, even though you just got them out of the drawer.
Tyra Valeriano:I remember those. So tell me what you would say is the highlight of your career. What is something you put at the top of your list that you can recall and say that is one of your proudest moments of your career?
Nathan Clark:I would say maybe two things. One was well, maybe three. So one was definitely at the university level. Being a newbie cop kind of sort of Universities have a policy. I'm not going to say which university I worked for, but there was a quiet policy about how to report crimes. And I recall going through the dorm one night and just talking to the people up front and they're like, hey, we think a crime occurred. And I said, oh, I'll let you know, tell me. Well, we think a girl got raped. So I investigated, essentially ended up being a legit thing. They weren't going to say anything. So I'm kind of happy about that.
Nathan Clark:Um and ended up being a good case. Um, where she was scared to say anything. Um, initially, if you listen to it, if he just took it for face value, it was questionable. But the more I dug and actually delved into the questions, it became a legit thing. So I would say that would be a good one um.
Nathan Clark:But another one would be um, finding a runaway downtown phoenix. Um, actually there's two for downtown phoenix but a runaway, and just taking I spent about an hour and a half after chef's talk with him and his family because he needed that. He was a troubled kid and he appreciated it as well as his parents. And then, same thing is kind of knowing your area. We had a call of a female who had overdosed. Nobody knew where she was. She was basically slowly passing away because of the overdose and the description she gave Phoenix police and our agency. Um, it could have been anywhere, but there was something very specific she had said about a billboard and I knew exactly where she was, so I was able to track her down and get her, get her saved immediately.
Nathan Clark:Um and then I would say the final one would be my last agency was we got a call of a female who was contemplating suicide. Um, she was home drinking. I get there, have a nice conversation with her For about an hour and a half. She was adamant she was not going to kill herself, but I saw enough in her eyes, enough in her demeanor that if we left she was going to follow through, and I was able to talk her into actually going to the hospital and getting help. And two weeks later she said, yeah, I was going to do it, had you, if you left. And she said thank you for actually being stubborn and sticking with it and not letting me do it.
Tyra Valeriano:Those are great stories. Thank you for sharing that. What do you say is your favorite part about civilian life?
Nathan Clark:what do you say is your favorite part about civilian life? Ooh, civilian life. I would probably say just not worrying about my kids being in danger, because we had take-homes and I think a couple of years ago when they were talking about Antifa and all of them going into neighborhoods and all that. I remember that night very distinctly because my kids slept upstairs with bats and baseball gloves and cleats and all these things in the room because they were scared that we were going to be targeted. So that was probably an eye opener. And being out of the job, I can say that I'm a little bit happy on that side because they don't have to stress about that anymore, you know.
Tyra Valeriano:That's great. Yeah, I remember when that happened too, we had take-home units, and when we talked about how it's just a in Spanish it's chismosa Like it's just a bunch of people talking, right, just rumor mill. I was parking my unit in my garage for a while because of that, and I guess there were dispatchers that used to drive by my house and they were wondering where I was at, because they're just like hey, where's Tyra? Her unit's not home, where is she at? Let's look for for her. And I remember one of the dispatchers asking me hey, are you out on duty because your unit isn't home? And I was just thinking like what the heck? I can't even be safe for my family without people just being nosy.
Tyra Valeriano:You know, that rumor mill it's not just in the agency, it's in dispatch too. But no, I honestly do think, though, that that fear that we have as parents or even, for, you know, our family in general, it it kind of subsides when you get rid of that take-home unit and you are able to be at home with your family, and I don't think it goes away for us. I mean, you could disagree with me. You know we're constantly on high alert for a while until we're adjusted, but yeah, that's definitely a relief. There is one question that I ask all my guests, which maybe you already know what that question is, and I'm interested to hear what this piece of advice would be, because you do have a lot of experience. What would be one piece of advice that you would give your rookie self, based on everything that you know now?
Nathan Clark:I would say probably the joking one would be don't um basically don't play in the same playground that you uh, you know um pooping, or you know whatever. Don't date amongst cops within you. You know pooping, or you know whatever Don't date amongst cops within your agency. You know, that's probably one of the biggest ones. I never did, thank goodness, but I saw enough of it. But the one thing that I would say to my young self would be don't take this job too serious. Be serious, but don't take it serious, because you have a lot more life ahead of you outside of this job. So have fun, Don't worry about the little things, Worry about the things that matter. And then you know, let God guide you the rest of the way.
Tyra Valeriano:I love that and I think that is really good advice. So if there's any rookies out there that can benefit from that, I think that's great advice. We are coming to an end of the podcast for today. Is there any contact information that you can share with the listeners if they wanna reach out to you?
Nathan Clark:Sure, I can get ahold of me on my email nclark6 at hotmailcom. N-c-l-a-r-k. Number six at Hotmail. That's part of the easiest way, because I pay more attention to that than anything.
Tyra Valeriano:Okay, is there anything else that you want to add?
Nathan Clark:No, I just want to say thank you for this opportunity. It was being, you know, first time. It was amazing. So, you know, maybe we can do this again down the road, because there's tons of topics, so I'm sure we can talk about um, I used to work in dispatch too, so that's, that's all.
Tyra Valeriano:Oh, oh see, I just I just stirred the pot. Yeah, okay, no, yeah, actually, I think that would be a great idea. I appreciate your time. Um, I think it would be really great if we got on some topics that we haven't discussed, because there are some things that we talked about prior to the podcast that I think would be beneficial to other officers hearing and maybe having some perspective or hearing that somebody else can agree with what they might be feeling or seeing in their career. So I definitely think we will plan for a future episode and we will talk about that a little more after we are done To the listeners.
Tyra Valeriano:Thank you guys for tuning in and for your continuous support. If you're interested in becoming a guest, please go to my link on Instagram. My Instagram handle is tval underscore official, or you can go to my website, shieldofdutycom, and find the schedule link on there. Everyone be safe and I will see you on the next one. Thank you for joining me on Chapter Blue. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to follow and tag me on social media and share with your friends and fellow officers. If you're interested in joining an episode, I'd love for you to be a part of the conversation. Until next time, stay safe, take care of yourself and remember you're interested in joining an episode. I'd love for you to be a part of the conversation. Until next time, stay safe, take care of yourself and remember you're never alone in this journey.