The Missing Discipline: What Leadership Development Gets Wrong in Technology

Most organizations promote technical performers into leadership roles and then hand them a title with no instruction manual.

Dr. James Rodgers, an engineer turned executive coach, corporate university founder, and decades-long leadership educator, joins MK Palmore to dissect the gap between managing and leading, why the technology industry keeps producing frustrated mid-level practitioners who can't break through, and what actually works when coaching fully formed adults who think they already know how to lead.

The conversation covers the distinction between strengths, weaknesses, and gifts, why people management was abandoned when the leadership movement took over, and the relationship-driven rules that govern career advancement at the executive level. Dr. Rodgers also shares a pointed warning for high-performing tech companies running on productivity without investing in their people: to whom the gods wish failure, they give twenty years of success.

Things You Will Learn:

1. Why leadership development fails when it skips people management, and how the shift from management theory to leadership branding left a discipline gap that most organizations still haven't closed.
2. How to identify your strengths, weaknesses, and gifts as distinct categories, and why the gift you didn't earn may be the most important leadership asset you're not using.
3. Why the rules for advancing past mid-level roles are fundamentally different from the rules that got you there, and what to do about it starting today.

Tools & Frameworks Covered:

1. Strengths, Weaknesses, and Gifts Inventory: A coaching exercise that separates earned competencies from innate talents to help leaders understand what they should amplify, what they should delegate, and what they've been overlooking entirely.
2. Significant Emotional Events (SEEs): A reflection tool that asks leaders to identify formative life moments, examine what they learned from them, and trace how those lessons show up in the way they lead today.
3. The Three Roles Framework (Doers, Managers, Leaders): A structural model for understanding who creates value, who enables performance, and who sets direction, and why collapsing these roles creates dysfunction.

#LeadershipDevelopment #PeopleManagement #ExecutiveCoaching #TechLeadership #CareerGrowth

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

The real game is the first thing I ask them to do, no matter where you are in your organization, now that this is companies like Cisco and Microsoft and all the big banks and so forth, I want you to go and get a C-level mentor. I want you to just knock on the door of one of your C-suite people and say, Look, my name is So and So, and I need your help. And they are all reluctant to do it until they do it.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

This week on Amplified, the Leadership Student 2.0 podcast, MK Paul Moore sits down with Dr. James Rogers, engineer, executive coach, and founder of a corporate university, to unpack why so many leaders stall out and what it really takes to lead people, not just manage them.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

James Rogers, welcome to Amplified, the Leadership Student 2.0 podcast. How are you doing? Delighted to be here, MKD. Good to see you again. Yeah, good to see you as well. And I'm uh kind of excited to pick this conversation up. Um you and I had the opportunity to interact at a CXO conference uh in Las Vegas. Uh I think we found that um certainly I found, I mean, that your deep experience in the leadership development field was something that interests me, and I wanted to carry on a conversation with you and hopefully the listeners get um a little some pieces of some morsels of uh of truth out of it because I'm I'm certain that uh that your experience will resonate with folks. First thing that I want to tackle is in the um the realm of leadership development, especially for adults, uh, when we think about developing leaders, folks come to this discipline, I think, at different stages uh in their life. When someone hires you, in all likelihood, um they are well underway in their career, probably several years, maybe even several decades, by the time they realize that they need to maybe tighten some things up. From your perspective, what um what works with adults in terms of helping them transform their approach to leadership and maybe some things uh to follow that don't work because you're coming at such a late stage of development?

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yeah. So most of the leaders that I coach, and uh I do in one-on-one coaching as well as group coaching, are you, as you said, they're well along in their leadership journey. Most of them don't realize that as adults, we all have blind spots. So sometimes we get so enamored with the idea of being a leader that we think that we're invincible. And one of the things I have to try to remind them is that you are still a human being. You still have your blind spots, you still have your strengths, you still have your weaknesses. A really great leader acknowledges all of that and tries to make sure that they're in the best position to lead when their leadership is needed. The the interesting thing about leadership, and I started as a leadership educator way back when I was, I started a university, uh, I mean a corporate university at Belle South, my last employer. And we uh hired people like Marshall Goldsmith, number one executive coach in the world, and several others to come in and teach our leaders how to lead. At the time, by the way, MK, we were excellent at managing. We were excellent at managing. If you we knew exactly what we needed to do on a day-to-day basis and we execute it flawlessly. What we were missing, of course, was the ingenuity, the creativity, the innovation that leadership provides, looking down the road and around the corner and making sure that we're not going to be surprised at the last minute by something that jumps up and bites us into behind. So leaders have the responsibility of selling ideas, concepts, and visions in such a way that people willingly follow them. Now, that's my definition of leadership. Now, people call themselves leaders over and over again, and I don't quarrel with them, I don't spend any time quarreling with them about it. But my platform has always been about don't forget that on a one-on-one, day-to-day, face-to-face uh basis, you have the responsibility of encouraging, supporting, and developing people. I call it people management. It is a component of leadership that I think is quite often overlooked. And in my coaching, I try to get people to go back, as you do in some of your podcasts I've noticed, go back to understanding what is it there about them that causes people to want to follow them and amplify that. Use your strengths. The the thing that I think um that works with them is I'm a big advocate of adult learning. I recognize that the people that I'm coaching are fully formed adults. They're not going to change because I tell them to change. What I have to do is invite them to look inside and say, what do I really want to be? And what's getting in the way of me being that which I want to be? I see myself as a great leader, as someone people love to work with, as someone who uh, you know, manages his work life, his home life, et cetera. What's getting in the way of me being that? And so those are the kind of questions that I like to uh to pose befront uh in front of leaders because the fact is you're not an outstanding leader at work, and then all of a sudden you go home and you're some dud. You are the same person in all areas of your life. And so you have to be aware leadership is is a very demanding role. Uh it's like I heard uh one of the young ladies that I coached many, many years ago says, you know, the thing about it is you're never off. You're on stage all the time. People are always watching you, whether your family's watching you, the people who report to you watch, they always want to see how you're responding. So you have to be mindful of that so that you don't let them down. We all think that it's, you know, I need some time to relax. Okay, well, go to Siberia and relax so when no one sees you. But as long as you're as long as you're in the public eye, people are watching, they're paying attention to your every move. So that's that's the thing that comes with leadership that a lot of people don't realize. And as adults, I have to realize that they come fully formed. They have their own opinions, their own values, their own expectations. My role as a coach primarily is to remind them of how good they are, and remind them that often some things get in the way of us being what we say we want to be, and just be aware of it and use me as your coach to point it out to you, as you point it out to yourself, so that you can be the best you possibly can be in the role of a leader.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

So there's a there's a lot to unpack there in your answer to that initial question. Uh I want to focus then on what you think it is that resonates with people or what happens. Is it a critical incident that happens? Because what you describe requires a tremendous amount of um uh willingness to reflect, uh willingness to engage in introspection that is not always like a natural part of who people are. Yeah. Um, what do you think it is that drives people to that understanding that maybe there's another gear, there's another level that they could be achieving in terms of this discipline? Yeah. Um, what have you seen over time that that brings people to the point where they're like, you know what, I could use some help here?

SPEAKER_03 7:15

For me, it always boils down to taking them back to who they are personally. You know, you weren't born the CEO of this major corporation. There was there was a story before you got here. So one of the things that I do is I tell them, identify, let's go back to the beginning. Identify your strengths, your weaknesses, and your talents or your gifts. Who will you put on the earth to be? What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? And if you identify your weaknesses, you can immediately say, when I'm faced with something in that area, I know I need help. So I'm going to ask somebody else to do that because I'm just not, that's just not my wheelhouse. But when it comes to these strengths, I need to amplify that because that's what I'm really good at. But the piece that I I focus on that most people overlook is we're all gifted with certain talents. I'm an engineer by training, and I discovered in my early adulthood that I was good at facilitating difficult conversations with people. I made people feel comfortable talking about tough stuff. They don't teach that in engineering school. So I had to learn to accept that. That sounds sounds like a sounds like a superpower. Right. Exactly. That's that's exactly how I position it. It's a superpower that you've been given. So you don't get to take credit for it because it was a gift. You it was just given to you. But you need to know what it is so you can take full advantage of them. A lot of people don't never identify their gifts, and therefore they never use them in the conduct of their work, their leadership, their management. And that's that's really unfortunate. So that's one thing. I also, uh in part of that reflection, ask them to go back and look at what we call the SEs, the significant emotional events in your life. When did that thing happen that all of a sudden triggered you to see the world differently? What happened in your early life that, you know, caused you to say, oh my God, this is the world. This is how the world works. You know, people talk about, you know, major SEs in the lives of people of certain generations. You know, I grew up, I was in high school when Kennedy was um was killed. And everybody who killed who was uh when he was assassinated, everyone who was alive at that time, that struck them. It was a significant emotional event. I I even tell people, I can remember I was standing next to locker number 1729 in the halls of Louisville Mel High School when I got the news, and it stopped me in my track. Now, the thing is, that's the event. What did I learn about it? What did I learn from it? That's what I pushed my coaching clients to realize. What did you learn from it and how has it impacted the way that you show up in the world and how you lead people? So, strengths, weaknesses, gifts, significant emotional events. Let's start there. Before we attack what you're doing as this big mucky muck inside this large company, let's focus on who you are, how you got here, and who you want to be in the world. Leadership is an expression of how you want to show up in the world and how you were gifted to show up in the world. So let's take all the fluff off of it and all the titles away from it. And just remember, this is you, John Doe. You are gifted to lead people. What allows you to do that well?

SPEAKER_02 10:36

James, can everyone be a leader? I assume there are different capacities of leadership. What are your thoughts around sort of what can actually be trained in and sort of built baked into people, and how do you combine that with their natural gifts and skills?

SPEAKER_03 10:50

I am of the belief that everyone can be taught leadership. And what I mean by that is leadership is not a title, it's not a position, it is a function, it is a role. IBM did some studies uh probably 25 years ago when these massive multiplayer games went online and people from all over the world were playing the games together, and they noticed something significant. When a team, team of people who didn't know each other, ran into a big hurdle, and the leader of the team just couldn't get them over uh get them over the hurdle. Sometimes it was some lowly person, meek and mild in the background, who simply raises their hand and says, I got an idea. I think this will get us through, and they explained it in such a way that everybody else on the team says, Yes, let's try it. Let's go for it. See, that is my definition of leadership. When you have an idea, a concept, or vision, and you can convince other people to follow you, that's leadership. It's not a title, it's not a position, it is a role and a function, and it shows up at various times. You don't get up in the morning and say, okay, today I'm going to have at least three opportunities to lead. Leadership shows up. And what a great leader does is steps into the leadership void when leadership is needed. It's not that I show up with the big title across my chest, I am the leader. That is title pomposity. Leaders look for opportunities to help people get through uh change and get through barriers that the team needs to get through, and their vision, their concept, their idea is the thing that allows it to get it through. So I think that's one of the things the biggest misconceptions about leadership is this title thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

So um a couple of minutes ago, you you you mentioned a focus on getting leaders to understand that their responsibility is to develop people, concentrate on people, invest in people. And I think that conceptually, this is one of the things that I think many, many folks who are designated as leaders miss out on. They they don't understand that their central role and responsibility is actually to develop the people who for whom they've been put in charge of in in most instances. And and and to be clear, I'm talking about in the corporate space uh because that that's the space that both both you and I are operating in, and I think the space that needs this talk, this attention uh on this particular subject. Why do you think that people misalign the focus of um what their responsibilities are to what their role is? They they seem to think that, you know, hey, I'm I'm supposed to drive production to create these widgets or do this thing that our team's responsible for doing, which is an outward focused desire. Why do they miss the component which is inwardly focused, which is, hey, my job is to develop these people. And then in doing that, we're gonna get to where we all need to be.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Yeah, it's uh, and I I'm gonna give you my view on this. Uh, I grew up when I came into leadership in inside corporations, I grew up, and the first thing that they did, they taught us management theory. They took us back to Elton Mayo and Maslow and Drucker, all of these people. Here's what their theory was about how you get people or how you create an environment where people can do their best work. What is there about the human nature that a leader or a manager can do to help people do their best work? That was the question, and we came up with theory, and finally we got so good at it that Drucker said, it's now a discipline. We know how to do it, we know you know, we know how to do that thing. When the leadership movement hit us in about 1979, 1980, we abandoned all of the thoughts about people management. We focused on the concept of leadership, even though we didn't define it, we didn't teach people what it was, we didn't tell them it's different from managing. We just said we are now leaders. We are trying to lead people down a path that they don't see that we see. And unfortunately, we've gotten so enamored with the term leader that we forget that part of its responsibility is to take care of. Why do we have, okay, going back to the fundamentals, why do we have managers and leaders in the first place? I am good as an engineer, but all I can do as an engineer is what one engineer can do. But if I'm managing a team of 12 engineers, I can maximize that team so that they produce what 24 engineers could produce. And if I'm the leader of a section that has several of those types of teams on it, my job is to get results through all of those people. Now, it goes back to human nature. If I see my job as getting the best from all of those people, getting results through all of those people, I've got to remember those people are not robots. They are human beings. So I do have to spend some time on how do I manage them, how do I develop them, how do I encourage them, how do I support them so that they come in, they're engaged, they want to do good work, and I've created the environment that allows them to do their best work. That is the ideal situation. But when we forget the people management component of it, it falls flat, which is why for the first time we're on the verge of losing product productivity gains year over year. Because we've gotten to a place where that component of leadership, that is that people management component, is no longer taught and obviously is not being well executed currently.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

So um uh typically there would be example after example to support exactly what you just you know described. Uh, you know, uh the the focus on people and people's development will override the other factors and ultimately produce an uh you know a productive team, an efficient team, uh, one that delivers on results when the focus is on them. We have a we have a clear example uh in the space today uh where that is not the case. Um I can tell you uh and and maybe you can share uh your perspective on this. There's a vertical, the technology vertical, where there is, quite frankly, an overemphasis on driving productivity results without taking into account uh the people. So many cases documented and otherwise of burnout in the technology space, so many instances of people documenting and noting uh the absence of what they would call solid leadership at the team level, maybe even sometimes at the C-suite level and corporate level. Yet these enterprises continue to drive explosive growth and revenue, which would give you the indication that what they're doing is right. How do we reconcile that? Uh, because I there's a there's a little bit of a conflict. And I struggle with this because you know my experience in the technology space was exactly as I just described lack of focus on leadership. They didn't care about developing people. Uh yet somehow the results get across the finish line every quarter. Yeah. How do you explain that?

SPEAKER_03 18:20

We used to have an old phrase, MK, it says, to whom the gods wish failure, they give 20 years of success. And that success is usually based on the wrong criteria. See, we have to go back and remember that there's fundamentally three roles in any kind of business enterprise. There are the doers, the people who actually create value for your organization. They're the frontline people that make the widgets that create the software code and deliver it to the customer. Then there are the leaders, the ones who say, okay, we're sitting in an ecosystem of companies like ours. If we're going to survive, these are the things that we have to do to survive in this industry. And then there's the managers who's operating between those two that is supporting and developing those people. When we boil it down to that supple level, the biggest challenge that technology, and you know, I'm with you because that's the area that I work in also. I'm a techie by training, and most of my clients, a lot of my clients are in technology fields. They're facing this right now. Productivity is defined in human terms. Human terms of one unit of input, human input, creates X units of output. That is the definition of productivity. An AI agent is not a productivity agent. An AI agent is intended to help that human being produce more. These things are tools, just like the pick and shovel, just like the automobile, just like all of these things we've invented over time, they are tools intended to help human beings produce more effectively and more efficiently. And until we get to the point that we recognize them as that, we're always going to miss the, we're going to miss the boat. I I've been doing a series of executive roundtables with technology CTOs and people like that. And I had uh one young man came on and he was one of the founders of uh Silicon Valley startup, now a six billion dollar company. And all of a sudden, the guy out of the founding group, the guy who took on the CEO job, called him in and says, Hey, I need you to manage this uh division over here. We've grown to the point where all of us have now got to take on management and leadership roles. And he looked at him and says, What do I do? I'm a founder. I know how to create stuff. I don't know anything about managing people. He says, Where do I go to learn that? And the CEO says, uh, well, just do the best you can. And see, therein lies the problem. Because doing the best you can will have unintended consequences. And that's why you see, and I'm sure you've recognized it too, there's so much movement in the tech industry. People work for Microsoft for two years and then they go over here and work for Apple for two years. Right. And it's because they don't have that workplace experience of feeling engaged with the company that they're working for. And that feeling of engagement comes solely from their direct manager. There is no other way for you to get that except the guy that I meet when I get the door at work, greets me, knows my name, knows my people, knows where I'm coming from, knows exactly what he needs to do in order to get the best out of me, and he knows how to get out of my way when I'm when I'm working. And so that feeling, and there we I I'm not just making this stuff up. There's a lot of uh uh empirical evidence that that indicates that this is the case. That feeling, you know, is what really amplifies productivity. So you and I are facing the same. Thing. The gods are in the phase right now where they're providing 20 years of success for these technology firms only to have them fall on their face if they don't realize that management and leadership have got to be a part of the agenda.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Yeah. Maybe they've the gods have given them longer than 20 years, at least by my observation. But I but I do feel that at some point this is going to come to a um a collision. You know, the combined uh misunderstanding of of what people need in these places of work, like what they need to be nourished by, and this idea of productivity at all cost. I I think, you know, you you brought up a couple of interesting points. You've noted a couple of times that you're a techie, you're an engineer. Oftentimes I think it's the uh folks from engineering backgrounds who are thought of as maybe not having all of the natural elements necessary to become good leaders, right? They they under they understand the math, the science, uh, the STEM stuff. Like they get that. They they they have that in spades, but maybe in being gifted with those talents, they are under, you know, they underproduce in some of the other things that um uh that are necessary. So we're talking about a field where you know metrics results, this idea, they believe certainly that they're a complete meritocracy when when in fact it's not a complete meritocracy. There's an overemphasis on technical skills and capabilities, and there's a misidentified lack of emphasis on leadership development. And case in point, I will um, you know, describe uh for most folks listening, the journey for small startups in the technology space almost always begins with a technology founder, someone who identifies some gap in the space and vertical, something that they intend to build that's going to solve some pain point for people. They are experts at building that thing and surrounding themselves with other team members that will help them build that thing. They finally go to market, and frankly, what they understand is that they got a company on their hands. And the founders who are technology focused almost always end up bringing in someone else to be the CEO. They they go out and find someone who's either has a sales background, someone who comes from deep, deep leadership experience. I've seen some rare instances where uh they bring in folks with both corporate experience and military experience because they want folks who are uh who sort of naturally lean into the space of leadership. They recognize that they can't lead a company. They were great at building this thing. And now this thing is selling, and they've got business operations, they got the CFO shop, they got, you know, uh HR, they got admin, they have all of these things that are starting to pop up around them, and they find that leading that thing is outside of their realm of understanding. And there's very few instances where the technology founder ultimately leads the company to overall success, even though they may lead it for a short period of time, oftentimes to go to the next level. They always, almost always turn it over to someone else. Is that a good example in terms of that sort of self-identification that leaders have really a different set of skills?

SPEAKER_03 25:10

That's a beautiful example. And I've I've observed the same thing. Uh, I always pay attention to, you know, like uh Larry and Sergei when they started Google, the first thing they did is to went out and found someone who knows how to run a business because all of a sudden this little tiny, you know, PhD project has blown up into a company. And I love the way you said that from a startup to a real company. When you move from a startup to a startups can be run by founders because, you know, they're still in the exploration phase. But when you become a real company, it's something I call you have to rely on the professional managers. These are people who actually know how to run a big enterprise as a founder that is not in your wheelhouse. And we're and we're grateful that it's not, because I want you to found other stuff and create new massive businesses. But when it comes to running the business, you need professional managers who know that there's leaders, managers, and doers. I have to encourage, support, and develop these people. I have to have departments, I have to run this thing as somewhat bureaucratic. It's not the same thing as being the founder mindset. So I've I've noticed this for years, and that is one of the reasons I'm so adamant about to the point that you made earlier. Our field does not naturally produce leadership. And it doesn't naturally produce leaders because we are so enamored with technology. We love our tech and we think tech will save the world, and we forget that in order to save the world, you got to create a company. And in order to run the company, you need managers and leaders.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

What's one thing someone can do today? Oftentimes in my journeys, what I come across is the journeyman, and I don't uh I don't mean that to be gender focused, but uh, you know, sort of the mid-level practitioner, finds themselves at an interesting point. They've got deep skill, or at least enough to feel confident that they can stand in the room with others and peers and advocate for their position on technology subjects. They may be ready for their first opportunity to lead, but they're not they're not getting the nod. What are some things that you recommend that people do in order to position themselves and ready themselves for that first leadership opportunity?

SPEAKER_03 27:24

So, this is one of the biggest uh mistakes that people in our field, technology and others, uh including minorities and women and other non-traditional people, they don't understand this. As a techie, your technology skills are paramount. We hire you, we depend on you to be tech ready and to be outstanding with that. When it comes to the leadership game, and I call it a game, it's about relationships. If you think you're ready for the next move and the next move and the next move, it doesn't matter unless someone who's already there sees and recognizes that you're ready for the next move and the next move and the next move. One of the things that I do in my executive academy, uh, which is based up uh either is primarily technol mid-level technology people, is I remind them that you've been good. Pat yourself on the back. Now let's get ready for the real game. The real game is the first thing I ask them to do, no matter where you are in your organization. This is companies like Cisco and Microsoft and all the big banks and so forth. I want you to go and get a C-level mentor. I want you to just knock on the door of one of your C-suite people and say, Look, my name is So and So, and I need your help. And they're all reluctant to do it until they do it. I had one kid from I won't name the company, big uh Wall Street Company that he's working for in technology. He says, I thought Dr. Rogers was crazy. He he must be off his game. You know, I work for a hundred and uh company with 135,000 people all over the world. I'm not just gonna walk into a C-suite person's uh office, he says, but he kept bugging me about it. And so I just finally called him. And guess what? He said, sure, come on up.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

And we talked for an hour and a half, and we didn't mention a word about the business. We just got to know each other. So if there's anything that I want my technical friends and my others who have not learned to play the game, is this is a game and it's played like all human games. Relationships rule. And if you have the capacity to be interesting to another human being who happens to sit at the top, that increases your your chances of moving up to the top. Don't get mad at the person who is not as good technically as you are, but seems to somehow be moving up fast in the organization. They're playing by a different set of rules than you are. You're playing the performance game that will get you to your executive director. But when you're talking about BP, executive BP, C-suite, CEO, it's a different game. And if you don't realize that, you'll be frustrated for no reason, and you'll you you won't achieve what you want to do. So if there's one piece of advice, MK, I would say stop griping about not being chosen, learn the rules of the game and survive and thrive.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

This is this is kind of a great point to end on, uh, at least for this first conversation, because I think what you just outlined, this idea that relationships are what's going to get you to that next level, uh, is such an important lesson that I think people fail to learn. And what you described in terms of the individual who was reluctant to go knock on the door of the uh of the C-suite individual, you would be surprised how often, especially those who who have the their head on their shoulders correctly, positively respond to outreach uh by people and are willing to sit down for uh you know 15, 20 minute conversation just to get to know you. And then once you're on their radar, you then become someone for whom they tap into for opportunities. You know, they're in conversations that you're not involved in. And when they uh think about, hey, we're gonna stand up this new team that's gonna be responsible for X, Y, and Z, who should who should we consider uh for this role? They will be more apt to throw your name into uh the discussion. And before you know it, you're getting an opportunity at bat. So I I think that's such wonderful advice. By the way, introverts, you know, team introverts, which is uh which the team I'm a part of, it please, you know, stand up and and recognize this that you got to be willing to reach out to people um because you'd be surprised the number of people who are willing to spend some time with you and and help get you in the uh get you on the right path.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

So based on one foundational one foundational principle. People in the C-suite are just people. You go back to the foundational, your CEO once worked the job that you're working, he was just a regular dude. He got elevated because he knew people or he went out of his way to get to get uh known by those people. And here's the thing, I spent most of my corporate career working with C-suite people. I just it's just that's my natural element. And here's what I know about it. It's a very lonely, it's a lonely position to hold. If someone walks in and says, Hey, can I I need your help? Can I have 15 minutes of your time? Uh sure. Come on in, let's talk. And if you say something interesting that piques my interest, and I'm saying, you know, that's I need to keep my eye on that young man. And the other thing that I always encourage them there is then you will be used as a resource because it's lonely at the top. They don't have access to all of the information. And as you know, MK, when you get to the top, no one tells you the truth. So now you serve as a resource that that that CC person can say, hey, look, we've been thinking about doing X, and I know you're working in the engineering, blah, blah, blah, et cetera. What do you think about that? Is that going to work? You become a resource for them to get in for get truth that they can't get otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Good stuff. Dr. James Rogers, uh, I appreciate you taking time for this conversation. Hopefully, it's the beginning of many conversations that you and I will have. I look forward to us potentially doing some business together because I appreciate your approach to leadership development. And that's uh something I think that it's desperately needed in all types of different spaces, in the corporate space, in the public sector space, and many different areas. So thank you for your time and insights. Where uh where can folks find you um in terms of um your your presence? Tell me a little bit about your company uh and uh maybe your web presence.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

My web preference is at jamesorogers.com. Uh most of my resources are available at that website, but I'm very active on LinkedIn. So if you want a ongoing conversation about the management role and what great managers do, I post two or three times a day, every day. So that there's all kinds of uh tools there for you to kind of pique your interest every once in a while. Say, ah yes, that that makes sense. And then join in the conversation. So LinkedIn and my website are the primary places to have a conversation with me.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

All right. MKD. Thanks, Dr. Rogers, for the opportunity. Thanks. And folks, that's it for this episode of Amplified the Leadership Student 2.0 podcast. We'll see you guys out on the landscape. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Amplified the Leadership Student 2.0. We've talked about the theory and the experiences, but remember, the strongest leaders don't just listen, they act. If you are looking to elevate your executive presence, navigate complex organizational challenges, or build a resilient culture within your own team, you don't have to do it alone. At Apogee Global RMS, our strategy and leader development practice is designed to help you bridge the gap between where you are and where you need to be. Visit us at apogeeglobalrms.io to learn more about our leadership solutions. You can also connect with us on LinkedIn to keep this conversation going. Until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and stay amplified.