The Real Lawyer: Daren Stanaway (Part 2)

In this episode, Daren Stanaway shares how mentorship and drive shaped her early litigation career. She reflects on lessons in legal writing, strategic thinking at Bingham (now Morgan Lewis), and navigating long-term cases and high-pressure situations. Daren also discusses transitioning to in-house counsel during the pandemic, highlighting the importance of perseverance, collaboration, and genuine relationships in law.

Transcript

Joyce Sophia Xu (00:03.608)
Welcome back to the Real Lawyer podcast and happy new year, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us in 2025. I am your host, Joy Sophia Hsu, and you're listening to part two of my conversation with Darren Stanaway. In this episode, we take a deep dive into how Darren approaches her work. We look at how she quickly became a highly sought after litigator.

and how she continues to pursue her professional dreams as she takes on different roles.

Joyce Sophia Xu (00:38.743)
So Darren, in our last episode we talked about law school and it sounded like it was really fun. In your early years as an associate at Binham, I definitely want to talk more about that experience, especially since I've never practiced as a litigator. So I've always been kind of curious about how that's like. Do you remember when you first joined Binham and was put on the case?

What was it like? How did you approach your assignment? And did you have a particular way of learning and integrating into the team? Well, when I first started, I had...

the great fortune of working with a couple of really terrific mentors, all of whom are now partners at Bingham successor for Morgan Lewis, but at the time were mid level to senior associates. And they were tremendous mentors and role models and really showed me this, this is how you write this type of brief. Here's an example. And as opposed to just throwing me to the wolves and saying, go write this, I had

terrific guidance from them. And as a result, I think that their guidance made me a really strong brief writer. And I think sort of having those examples because I had never written a brief before other than the couple fake briefs that we wrote in law school, right? For law school legal writing classes, but it's very different when you're writing an argument to a court based on real facts as opposed to just whatever you can come up with from a case book. So.

I think that the mentorship I received from several of the, again, then associates, now partners, really, really helped shape that experience and also really equipped me well to then transition when I did to the white collar team, I felt like I had a skill set to bring to the table and offer that I felt confident that I could really make a contribution to that team because I'd received such terrific mentorship from.

Joyce Sophia Xu (02:51.937)
from this team, which was actually mostly the appellate group at the time at Bingham. I know the group's grown tremendously. It was a small group at the time, but it's now quite large and learning to write appellate briefs, which was also very exciting. I even worked on a couple of Supreme Court briefs and being able to work at that level, I think really helped to hone and polish my skills for legal writing. Yeah. Well, that's so impressive, Darren. And having worked with you myself,

I definitely remember how exceptional you always were at research and writing. And there's a rhythm to your writing. You know, there's a lot of energy behind it. So I was always impressed by that. Thank you. No, I appreciate that. I sleep a lot, but I worked really hard. Yeah, I know that for a fact. You were.

always answering emails no matter what time of the night it was. So when you were talking about how you had worked so hard the first year of law school, and I was thinking to myself, wow, she must have not slept much back then either. No, no, certainly not that much, but more so than when I was an associate, I think, for the most part. But again, at that time, I was really...

in it. really, this was my dream. I wanted to do well. I wanted to succeed. It was super exciting to be part of a team like that working on cases like that. And I was going to do whatever I needed to do to get the job done on time or early and well, which is difficult for someone like me who does not like procrastination. like to do everything in advance and

perhaps I chose the wrong specialty because in litigation, sometimes no matter how much you plan, things come up at the last minute. Right. And things get delayed and postponed. So speaking of which, you know, that was actually one of the main reasons I chose corporate over litigation. Because the litigation matters just seem to drag on forever. For me, it seems really hard to get

Joyce Sophia Xu (05:09.054)
any sense of closure on anything. You know, whereas, for example, the Jaravavist transactions I work on, they're usually done within a few weeks. I don't think I realized before I became a litigator how long some of these cases last. You see all of the...

TV shows where the trial, investigation trial and verdict or whatever it is are over in two weeks. That is by far a far stretch from reality. I can remember working on cases stemming from conduct that occurred in 2007 and I was still working on them in 2016, 2017. So up to a decade later. And it is very difficult sometimes to remember that

where the end point is because it takes so long for some of these cases. But ultimately, I had a couple that at the end of the day, it was worth it. And we got the results that we wanted and felt were fair and deserved. But it took in some cases 10 years. Yeah. So when you're on a big case like that or a big investigation, did that pretty much just take up all of your time?

Did you ever get to a point where you look up and say, okay, I'm learning a lot on this case, but maybe there are other skills that I still need to develop more? I don't know enough about litigation, but I do hear from litigators sometimes that, especially when they're more junior, they would say, well, I really wish I had more trial experience, or I really wish I could

have more exposure to depositions. So I don't know if you had any similar experiences like that during these years. So I think that for me, I worked with a team, especially when you get into the sort of depositions and investigations and trials where they were not wedded to what your class year was. They would give us the opportunity to

Joyce Sophia Xu (07:29.95)
work on whatever aspects of the matter we had shown we had the potential to do and capacity to do. And it wasn't, you're a second year or you're a third year and we don't let people do that until they're a fifth year. It was you've shown that you have the capabilities and aptitude to do this. We want you to develop these skills. So let's equip you with those skills and get you out there doing those things.

And I think for the larger matters, you're right, those can take up all of your time. If you're working on one giant litigation matter, as I did, as I said, for the first year, there wasn't room for any other matter. But even within that matter, there were so many different aspects of it. There was discovery, there were depositions that I went to, there were briefs that had to be written constantly, motions that had to be written, just so many different moving pieces within a single matter.

that it wasn't as if I was sort of tunneling, doing only one thing day after day. In fact, to the contrary, that's one of the things I really liked about litigation. Never or almost never were there two days where you did the same thing that were alike. And as I got more senior, certainly got exposure to do a lot more and different things. And as the cases that I worked on,

some of them were very large and some of them were not as large. So there would be times when I was juggling eight to 10 different matters at the same time, which is challenging, right? You have competing deadlines, you have competing client interests, and so being able to juggle and balance the time, think, is something, is a skill that is certainly underrated among lawyers. And that's true, certainly outside of litigation as well, I'm sure in corporate matters like that you've worked on.

Similarly, you have different competing client demands and having to work on all those different matters at the same time certainly is a challenge. Yeah, that's for sure. But eight to 10 litigation matters all at the same time, that's really a lot. No wonder you develop such a wide array of skill sets so quickly. And I'm listening to you and

Joyce Sophia Xu (09:47.179)
You're clearly very driven and you have this striking clarity about you. You're clear about your purpose, what you want out of life, what you want out of your job, and it's really impressive. So I wonder if you remember then when you first got out of law school,

Did you set goals for yourself? Did you have a five-year plan, a 10-year plan, something like that at that point? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. At the time, again, coming out of law school, was coming out of the financial crisis. I got the job that I wanted. I was really excited about it. And I was giving more than 100 % of what I had to that job.

But it wasn't just spinning in a hamster wheel. was certainly at the time I said, I want to be a big law firm partner. That's what I want to do. I thought from day one when I started at Bingham, I want to be a law firm partner. When I started at Bingham, never in my wildest dreams did I think I would be leaving Bingham and going to another firm. I thought I liked the people here. The people are wonderful. I get to work on amazing things. This is great. So I just ran with it.

And then as often happens in life, things change. And the white collar team that I had started working with and really enjoyed lateraled away from Bingham to Paul Hastings. And I had no idea that that was in the works. At the time I was a mid-level associate, so certainly wasn't involved in and had no idea what it meant to transition firms or when partners leave, what all that entails.

But I knew that I, as much as I enjoyed working with the other teams at VINGA and again, the appellate team that had been an amazing set of mentors for me, but I felt that practice area wise, I really enjoyed the white collar work and wanted to continue doing that. And when these three partners departed, I wanted to continue working on those matters and working with them. And so,

Joyce Sophia Xu (12:05.021)
Fortunately for me, they said, this was after the fact, of course, but they said, we would love for you to come with us if we can make it work. And so that was how I made it to Paul Hastings was with this team. And so to be able to transition with a team that I knew that I trusted, I knew they were not only tremendous lawyers, but also tremendous people. I think that that's one thing that especially in big law, it can be hard to find both.

people who are really amazing people who are also amazing lawyers and to have found three partners that were that way and treated us, treated associates as humans and people and not like robots, it was really wonderful to work with them. And so it really, I knew that I wanted to continue working with them. And then my sort of goal of making partnership didn't change, it just changed firms.

And I said, all right, I'm going to continue on this path, but this is the team now that I want to be partners with. And then the pandemic hit and I was still very much on that path. I, by that point had been elevated to what Paul Hastings calls of counsel, which is effectively for me, I know that different firms use different terminology, but.

In my case, it was sort of a stepping stone for a higher title and hopefully moving towards partnership. And when the pandemic hit, think, like many people, a lot of things changed. And I started to give some real thought to where I wanted my career to go, especially in those uncertain times. We didn't know if or when the world would reopen. And

an opportunity came across when a job opening popped up at where I currently am. And I had never shifted from my one main goal, which was I am going to be a law firm partner. But when I heard about this opportunity, something in me said I should look at that because these opportunities don't come across that frequently for an in-house position.

Joyce Sophia Xu (14:19.441)
looking for the type of work that I do. And that is ultimately what changed and why I decided maybe right now shooting for law firm partnership and continuing to go on that route, maybe that's something that either I no longer want to do or at least want to explore something else before re-exploring.

And that's how I made it in-house. And again, I had not really considered the in-house option because I hadn't been looking. I wasn't looking to go anywhere. But again, when an opportunity comes up, it's worth a look. And that's something that I would certainly encourage and do encourage. I do a couple mentorship programs and things like that, but really do encourage younger lawyers coming up to think about.

because it's great to have a goal. It's great to have a direction. And if you don't, that's okay too. There's lots of time to figure that out, but it's also really important not to have tunnel vision and that if other opportunities come the way, maybe they're not the right opportunity, but it's good to at least think about it and consider it and say, is this something that might be a good step for me? Right. It's important to be open-minded and be willing to have

those conversations and at the very least just learn about what other people are doing, what other lawyers do and what potential there could be for growth. So you were saying that this was an opportunity that came about that looked particularly attractive and because it was essentially allowing you to do the type of work that you were doing.

at Paul Hastings and now you've been there for a couple of years? Coming up on four years, time really flies. Okay, yeah. So how has that experience been? Have you found that you've been indeed doing the same type of work or has the nature of the work actually shifted since you've gone in-house? I will say that I don't really do litigation anymore.

Joyce Sophia Xu (16:38.502)
That had dropped off substantially when I was at the law firm. I was doing a lot more investigations work. The difference was certainly at the law firm. We often had, oftentimes had investigations that got turned into litigation, right? You have a government investigation, they're investigating your client, they decide to charge the client, and then you transition from investigation mode into litigation mode.

So I don't find myself in court anymore. I did find myself in court during the pandemic when I was at the firm. That was fascinating, very interesting. At the Zoom court, as they say, was something I never thought would happen, but very, very bizarre on many levels to not be in an actual courtroom, whereas I had been in courtrooms before. But yes, I don't find myself in courtrooms anymore, virtually or otherwise.

But, but otherwise, yes, I get to do it. I still get to do securities and commodities work, obviously, and really enjoy it. Also great team, great people. And how has your day to day, your daily routine changed? Has it changed much since you made the move? So I will say that,

I guess, well, part of the reason the daily routine really didn't change that much is because the transition occurred in the midst of the pandemic. So it was pretty interesting because at the time everyone was working from home. So I remember transitioning, shipping my old computer back and getting a new computer, but my commute was still to my living room. It's very surreal to change jobs and...

really not get to meet new coworkers in person. And finally, when we got to go back to office and meet people, it was wonderful to finally get to meet these people in person that had only been in little boxes on a screen for several months leading up to when we finally got to go back. certainly my routine has changed in that now I do get to see people in person again, which is wonderful.

Joyce Sophia Xu (18:46.895)
It was unfortunate that I didn't get a chance to see my former coworkers in person before I left. It would have been really nice to get to see them in person to say goodbye, as opposed to virtually sending an email or something saying, by the way, I know I haven't seen you in person in months, but I'm moving now, so you won't see my emails anymore either. So we never had a departure party for you. No, right. There were no parties. It would have been prohibited.

So sadly, no. And then how did you navigate shifting from working from home to now going into the office more regularly? I mean, I was just so excited to get to see people in person again. That it wasn't, it wasn't hard. I think by that point, it was just nice to have a change from a change of scenery and get to see other people in person and interact in person. I just think there's a lot of value in that.

And looking back, I can't imagine what it would have been like when I was starting out to not be in an office, to not have coworkers around to ask questions, pop your head in the office and just say hello. Because I think, especially for young lawyers starting out, the connections that you make and the camaraderie that you build, so much of that is based on in-person time. And you can't replicate that if you don't

ever physically see the people. And I think now, especially for the people who were summer associates during the pandemic, I know that people did the best they could, but to me, I just can't even fathom what that would have been like. It's such a different dynamic. Yeah, it's definitely tough for the summers and the junior associates, because I think also, you know, firms and companies were also just scrambling.

trying to figure out how to deal with the pandemic from a business perspective. And all the recruiting and the training, it really became less of a priority. There is a lot of complexity to this issue for sure, because I'm still conflicted on this point myself.

Joyce Sophia Xu (21:08.74)
You know, cause my own firm is a hundred percent remote and that has really improved the quality of my life and also for everyone who works for the firm. But, to be fair, everyone who works with me is already a very experienced attorney. So I do agree with you that, especially for the junior people, there's a lot of learning and, in the organic transfer of knowledge.

through the in-person interactions, which you just cannot get through Zoom calls from time to time. And just even from the sense of putting a name to a face, I remember prior to the pandemic, we never had FaceTime or Zoom. People would just pick up the phone and call one another so you wouldn't see people on a screen as is so common now. So if you weren't in the office, you didn't...

even get to interact with the person. They were just a phone friend. And that's very different than having the opportunity to work in the same room with someone and working on a case team or working on strategy team. And especially in litigation, think that's super valuable to have sort of that camaraderie. When everyone's working till 2 a.m. or 3 a.m., it's nice to know you're all in it together. As I think about it, if you hadn't knocked on my door,

when you were up in the New York office, when I first started at Paul Hastings, and if we hadn't stayed in touch and visited each other whenever you were up in New York or I was down in DC, I don't know if our working relationship would have been as close as it was. yeah, these in-person connections are definitely valuable in terms of team building.

So now Darren, I'm also curious since you're now a very seasoned litigator and you've worked on a lot of interesting cases and investigations, could you talk about maybe your top two greatest memories from these years?

Joyce Sophia Xu (23:30.393)
That's a tough question. also given that so many of the cases I worked on were privileged and I can't talk about them. Because there were several really big highs with a lot of matters. Sure. Yeah, I totally get that. So could you talk about them then in more general terms without naming names? I think that in terms of the legal profession, I think

Perhaps one of the most gratifying cases that I worked on, was an individual case where we had an individual who, and it was publicly charged, but we had a client who was charged with some types of market manipulation. And the government was very adamant that this had occurred. We were very adamant that it had not. And I think what, something that people don't realize who are outside of the law is that

Being publicly charged with something has tremendous consequences for an individual. You don't have to be convicted of anything. Just to be charged publicly, accused of something publicly, has huge negative impacts on the person charged. And it's particularly terrible when that person is not guilty of what they were charged of.

And I had a client who fell into that bucket and we were able to win that case in court and making that call to that client, I will never forget it. And being able to finally say to this person, it's over, your nightmare is over. It's done. After it had dragged on for many, years was one of the most

amazing moments that I've ever had to experience because it really brought the human element to the law and it sort of re-emphasized this is why we do what we do. For people like this, this is why there's a justice system and this is why it's important that we do what we do. I think that was one of

Joyce Sophia Xu (25:49.317)
the biggest highlights certainly of my professional career. that's very touching. I just loved hearing about that. Thank you so much for sharing. You know, I think about Mike Spafford you mentioned before, and it sounds like you really have developed a number of great relationships with other lawyers who have mentored you throughout the years.

whether it's a senior associate when you were a junior associate or other partners. And I've certainly seen how you and Mike, for example, work together and there's just this beautiful trust between the two of you. And to me, I think that's the reason why you got so much support and mentorship from others because you have presented yourself in a way that is

very competent, very reliable. and when I worked with you, I always just knew that I could count on you to deliver the absolute best work product. Well, like, likewise, Joyce goes both ways, but thank you. having great mentors is so key, I think to one's career development and success. So I wonder,

What's your advice to law students and young lawyers on how to seek out mentors and how to develop these kinds of professional relationships? So I think my advice would be don't go in with a goal of seeking a mentor because that's not really how it works. mean, I think mentorship programs that firms have are great, right? They're great when they're formal and you get to meet people outside your practice area. in my experience, the most valuable

mentorships have happened organically. And I think when I started working with Mike and also Michael Levy and Amy Carpenter-Holmes, those were the other two partners on that team. And I still to this day consider them some of my greatest mentors and confidants. But you're right, it didn't happen overnight. And the way that those relationships came to be.

Joyce Sophia Xu (28:09.631)
is that I wanted to do well and I wanted to show them that I'm up for this and I will do whatever I need to do to do a great job. And I think to use a very overused phrase, the proof is in the pudding, right? You put in the time, you put in the effort and you show your willingness to be a go-getter and to lead by example and show that you're capable and

when people realize that you are capable, they will respond in turn. And I was very fortunate to have people who wanted to mentor me, right? And wanted to shepherd me through and see me succeed, right? And building those relationships comes from working extremely hard and not waiting and sitting back and hoping that someone discovers you someday.

Because if you do that, it just doesn't happen. And I think especially today when you're not in office all the time and don't have those repeated relationships. And I think it goes both ways because I also wanted to learn from their examples and emulate the techniques that they used. And that goes back to, as I said, the appellate team that I first started working with when I first began. It was them recognizing the potential and

the willingness to want to work hard at this to do well.

Joyce Sophia Xu (29:45.869)
Thanks so much for listening. I am just so inspired by Darren. She has this exceptional clarity about her and I admire her so much for her unwavering dedication to her dreams, her craft and her work. So I hope you enjoyed listening. Please be sure to tune in on Friday for our next episode. You will learn more about Darren Stanaway.

as a daughter, a musician, an artist, and an all-around beautiful human. Until then, I wish you a very, very happy New Year, and as always, be well and be happy.