The Real Lawyer: Josh Fershee (Part 1)

Episode Summary - Part 1: From College Town to Law School

In this episode, Josh Fershee, Dean and Professor of Law at Creighton University, takes us on a journey through his unique path to law. Growing up in East Lansing, Michigan, with a father who worked in government law, Josh’s early exposure to the legal world was unconventional. He shares how his academic journey was filled with twists and turns, including attending three colleges before settling at Michigan State. After meeting his wife on a political campaign, their shared decision to attend law school together at Tulane University would shape both their careers. Josh discusses how their supportive partnership made law school more manageable and how balancing family and professional growth became key to their success.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where Josh dives deeper into his transition from practicing law in New York and Washington, DC, to his current role in legal academia.

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04.94)
Welcome to the Real Lawyer podcast, where we get real about life, working in law, and everything in between. I'm your host, Joyce Sophia Hsu. And our guest today is Mr. Josh Fershe, Dean and Professor of Law at Creighton University School of Law, located in the great state of Nebraska.

Speaker 1 (00:36.248)
Hi Josh, welcome to the show.

Hello, thanks for having me.

I'm so very happy to get this opportunity to reconnect with you, Josh. You and I were colleagues way back when, when we were both junior associates at Davis Polk. And that really feels like several lifetimes ago. Then thanks to LinkedIn, we managed to stay in touch. And over those years, your career has evolved and grown in such an impressive way. So I have been

very eagerly looking forward to having you on our show. So again, welcome.

Very good. Well, thanks for the opportunity. It is nice to reconnect.

Speaker 1 (01:19.65)
Great. So why don't we start with learning a bit more about you? Please tell us, Josh, where you grew up and what led you to law school.

So I grew up in Michigan in a college town in East Lansing, Michigan. My father was an attorney. He was actually one of the first classes that graduated from Cooley Law School when there was no night school in the state of Michigan. so it's a long time ago, he was a very different animal, but he and a lot of the people he graduated with actually ended up working in government. And so my dad was an attorney, he really was more worked for trade associations and, and in the legislature for a bit. So.

So I grew up with a lawyer in the family, but not really a practicing lawyer other than the first, you know, when I was, I don't know, five or six, he practiced law for two years, I think. And so grew up around lawyers in one sense, but not really the practice of law, right? It wasn't around litigators or certainly around big law. Went to college. I was a terrible undergraduate. I went to three colleges. So for anybody who's listening who thinks that because they weren't great in college that you can't be a lawyer.

I would definitely say that's not true. So I went to the University of Michigan for a year, University of Georgia for a couple of years, and then transferred back home and was at Michigan State for what ended up being about three years though. Didn't do so great. So I had an opportunity to step away and think about what I wanted to do. Unfortunately, that was a time actually where I met my wife on a political campaign before she went back to the University of Michigan and I ended up finishing up at Michigan State and wasn't really thinking about law school quite honestly at that point.

So your dad never encouraged you to pursue a profession in law or a career in law.

Speaker 2 (03:04.518)
He always spoke very highly of how useful the degree was to him and how you could do anything with it. And so it was something that was, I wouldn't say I was encouraged or discouraged. He always spoke very highly of his training as a lawyer. So it was on the radar. But honestly, when I got done with school, I was really happy to be done. I hadn't been, you know, was proud of how I finished up, but not really that proud of how I'd done the whole path. And so...

We moved, my wife and I moved to Washington DC. I worked for a video game trade association and then ended up getting a job in Los Angeles and moved out there with, to do product launches for, for Nintendo. And so that was a great experience. And while we were there, my wife decided she wanted to go to law school actually after saying for years she'd worked in politics, political organizing, and had said she never wanted to go to law school because all the people she worked with had law degrees and.

they were doing the same job. And at one point she decided that she really did. And I was like, great, go to law school. I can do public relations anywhere. after a while she's like, why don't you just take the LSAT? You know, she had taken it. She's like, why don't you just take it?

because she thought you would be a good lawyer.

Yeah. And I thought about going back to school, but I hadn't really decided what to do. Wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And as she went through that process, then I used her book to kind of learn how the LSAT works and take some practice exams. And then I took it and she was like, you know, it makes sense to just go together. Why don't we just do this? And so we applied to schools around the country really, and ended up going to visit Tulane in New Orleans and

Speaker 2 (04:47.232)
As my wife would say, she knew the minute we got off the plane that that's where it it. took me a little, a little longer to catch up. It was, mean, I really enjoyed it too, but, for whatever reason, just the fit was good for us at that point in our lives that she just as it is, it's a wonderful city and it was a great experience for us. So a lot of people thought we were nuts to go to law school as a married couple. And I always say it either really works or it really doesn't. Unfortunately for us, it really worked.

really?

Speaker 1 (05:17.038)
It could be compared to being stuck at home with your spouse during COVID. It either brought you closer or it would drive you apart. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And I was thinking back as you were talking about when I was going into law school, actually one of the best advice I got was

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (05:46.648)
from someone who had gone to law school by then and told me that it's very stressful, it's very scary, but much of the stress is actually all self-induced. And it just helped me tremendously throughout law school. So I actually, you even made time for TV and I remember watching Friends religiously throughout the three years of law school. And I could definitely see the benefit of actually

you know, going to law school with your wife and having that built in support, right? You're, you're kind of going through it together and have someone else who's in it with you and going through the same stresses and learning about the, the same things that, uh, I could see that being actually really valuable.

Yeah, it was incredible. mean, I had the best study group I could ever hope for. And we only had a couple of our first year. think we only had two classes together and. You know, and we studied differently. She actually worked with more study groups. I tended to study on my own, but if I had questions, I would work with her. We're both reasonably competitive, but fortunately we were just competitive with each other. It's like, I don't, I don't mind if I finished second as long as she's why I finished second too, right?

But it really was good. we'd been married for almost two years. We'd been together for, I think, probably six or seven at that point. And I turned 30 our first year of law school, so I was a little bit older than the mean. And that probably helped. But it really was amazing for us. We'd both been working full time. And so we had a lot of skin in the game. We both quit good jobs to go to law school. So there was that. But also, we were all of sudden on the same schedule.

We were stressed at the same time, when we were done with classes, we could travel. We could go back and see family or go see some friends. We were on and off at the same time, which is not something we'd experienced for the several years before that.

Speaker 1 (07:53.654)
Yeah, that really sounds lovely. It really sounds also like you're a couple who really know how to grow together, which is probably one of the big secrets to the success of your family and your career.

I think that's true. think one of the things, you know, I'm really fortunate to be with somebody who has been incredibly supportive to me. I think I've been the same for her and we have grown together. I think that is a big part of it. And one of the challenges and at various times we've had to think about how are you going to navigate to professionals? Right. I mean, we are both people who value our careers and value our family. How do you balance that? And one of the,

things that we saw early on in practice. And there are things that I really loved about practicing, you know, as an attorney in New York and then Washington DC. But some of the advice you would get from people of how to manage your family is like, you can both be professionals. You just need two nannies. You need a day nanny and a night nanny. That wasn't going to work for us because we both wanted to be professionals, but we didn't want to just have kids. actually wanted to be a part of their lives and be around them.

Yeah, that's beautiful. It sounds like you had a great partner to be by your side through law school. so you mentioned working in DC. Is that where you ended up in after law school or?

So we went to New York for just about, really only about a year and a half. And then I ended up getting a job in Washington, DC. I had decided that I thought I wanted to be an M &A lawyer and did some rotation. I had decided, I think I decided that when I did really well in business associations, I'm not sure. And going through that process, it was...

Speaker 1 (09:33.582)
decide that.

Speaker 2 (09:46.348)
And I should have known, I did a rotation, obviously I worked with you and doing some derivatives, I did some work in litigation and then did some work in &A. And I had a good experience and I learned a lot, but one of the things that should have clued me in, I was working with somebody who was a couple of years ahead of me and he said, you welcome to the &A group, you're gonna love &A, it's nothing like law school, which should have been a clue to me that that might not be my spot because I am one of the people who loved law school. I thought it was great. And so,

Ended up getting an opportunity to move to Washington, DC at Hogan and Hartson, then it's Hogan levels now. And went into a regulatory practice, which was really a great balance for me. I mean, I would say when I was in law school, I decided that if I could come back and be a law professor, that's something I'd love to do, but I wasn't really an expert in anything. And when I got to working in an energy regulatory group, was like, I could practice and do this. I enjoyed this. This is a wonderful place.

But it was also, this is what I would want to teach. This is the space I would like to be in because I did find it really interesting and fulfilling in a way that was really useful. And it had some benefits. I ended up really going into teaching energy and environmental law and business associations. And there was a lot of overlap there. And so the things that I really enjoyed, both from practice and from being at school, found that pathway that I wouldn't have found, don't think, had I ended up in...

and energy practice.

What was it like? Was the environment at work very different after you made the move from New York City to DC?

Speaker 2 (11:24.48)
It was, I mean, think the DC, you know, we'd lived in DC before law school and then coming back, we love New York city. I mean, as one of my still one of my favorite places in the world. But the practice of, of law was a little bit slower pace, certainly in the group that I was in. I one of the advantages, you know, you go back 20 years, most of the practice was before the federal energy regulatory commission, which closed at five.

mind to.

Speaker 2 (11:50.158)
And so, yeah, and if you needed to get something filed, you needed to get it there by five. And so not to say we didn't work longer hours, but it was a little more structured, you know, unless you had like a rate case, which was kind of a, you know, a big administrative hearing. You know, we could work a pretty solid day, or at least it was not hard to leave and go home and then pick up the work later if that's what needed to be done. And so was my practice, at least in that space was much more structured and steady.

And that was really valuable.

Yeah, that must have been a welcome change from &A practice where, you know, I think there's anything but structure or predictability, right? And a lot of times your second shift kind of starts at 5pm.

Well, that's right. And it's like you build 300 hours in one month and the next month you build 160. Right. Right. And this was a much more steady experience. And so that was really good. And it was a really technical practice. I one of the things I interviewed with a couple of different regulatory groups, it was thinking, you know, maybe I'd like to do FDA practice or maybe FTC practice or something and really enjoyed the energy folks. And it was a steep learning curve because it is a very

technical environment and its own set of rules. But I liked that, of being able to get up to speed and try to get, just felt like I was learning a lot really rapidly. And I valued that too.

Speaker 1 (13:25.132)
Yeah, you know, I really like that. I think I'm already hearing a theme here. There's a lot of exploration along the way for you. And it sounds like you really value learning and you keep yourself open to trying different things. You definitely don't shy away from taking risks or making big changes. Right. So, I think the next change for you.

came after the regulatory practice with Hogan. So after that you transitioned into academia.

That's right. that was kind of, you we thought about going into teaching and actually that was something I was going to do. And Kendra was not sure what she was going to do, but was supportive of exploring that and got an opportunity to interviewed for a visiting assistant professor position at Penn State and State College when they were opening their law school. So they needed some legal writing faculty for their, for their new first year class they were building at the time. And I interviewed for that position and

said, you know, we need to figure out what, what Kendra's going to do. And they, brought her in for an interview of, cause they had a number of positions, but I'm looking at her resume and looking at what they needed. said, we actually need another person to teach. Would you be interested in doing that? And, and she said, yes, absolutely. And so we both started teaching together and it was a great opportunity. We were there for a year and had some good mentorship from faculty who were there and made some friends.

went on the market, ended up both getting an opportunity to teach at the University of North Dakota the following year. we moved from, after having lived in Washington, DC a couple of times, New York, New Orleans, and Los Angeles, we moved to State College and then to Grand Forks, North Dakota. And so it was a different animal, but we had, our son was born at that point. He was, when we moved to Grand Forks, I want to say he was almost two by then. And it turned out to be a great opportunity for us to both get into teaching.

Speaker 2 (15:34.314)
and be in a spot where it was a good place to have our family start and grow.

What did you teach at that time?

So I was hired to teach business associations and energy law. Those were the two main things. So I taught business associations one and two, energy law. And then I taught a couple of felons. I taught the labor and employment law a couple of times. I ended up teaching sports law. I guess maybe I didn't do that until West Virginia. But it was really interesting when I moved out there, I was really interested in wind energy, which I still am, and was working out. My research was on.

kind of grid integration for wind farms of how is that going to pick things up? That was about 2007. And around 2008 was when the hydraulic fracturing boom took off right in North Dakota. And so I was there and I had not done really oil and gas work. I had done natural gas, electricity, renewables, things that were kind of what the companies we were working for were regulated on and what they were investing in.

And that wasn't really a space that I was, I was near, but I was right there. It was actually about four and a half hours away from us, but it was in North Dakota and really moved into looking at that space. And it was fascinating. I learned a lot about a new technology and there were very few academics who were looking at it because so few people outside of the engineers and people related to the, to the process. We're just starting to catch up. And so it was a great opportunity to be at kind of the.

Speaker 2 (17:10.849)
the birth of this kind of energy revolution. And it was really quite an opportunity.

Wow, that's amazing. when you get inspired and find a passion for a certain subject matter, how did you approach it in this case? Because I'm thinking, okay, if I put myself in your shoes, at this law school, I've taught different subject matters, but this is a somewhat new area, right? Even though you've dealt with FERC and regulations back in DC.

So did you start with academic research? Did you do legal writing, publications, and that's how you got into the community that's focused on it? Or how did you go about it?

Yeah, so there, you know, I was a new scholar, right? And so was looking for areas, things to write about and around the country, people were really interested. so because I was in North Dakota, there was, I was on the radar for places of, who's the energy law person at North Dakota? Okay, well, let's email him or call him and find out what he thinks about these things. And, and the first answers were, I don't know a whole lot.

but I realized it was an opportunity for me to take some expertise in the field. And so I took the opportunity to write about it and to meet people, talk to different regulators, talk to the people of the state who were doing the work and got opportunities to write in some law review symposium issues and took those opportunities. so that really, I did start writing about what the impacts were and what that looked like.

Speaker 2 (19:00.91)
It was really a fascinating space and it led to our, you know, we were in North Dakota for five years and ended up talking to West Virginia University who was, you know, we were in the Bakken Shale, is where the, which is really an oil play primarily for hydraulic fracturing. The Marcellus, which is the East coast, which is Ohio, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and a little bit up into New York is really more of a natural gas play. So it's the same.

hydraulic fracturing process, for a different, different fuel source. And they were looking to expand their expertise. And so they talked to us and initially the answer was, well, we have, there's two of us. And so we're not trading two jobs for one, but they ended up having an opening and in my wife's area. And so we both ended up going there. So my scholarship really led us to that space.

And it was a great opportunity there too, because I had to learn how natural gas works. And it's a much broader space because its uses are different in many ways than what we were doing with oil. That was primarily to develop gasoline. There's other fuels and other products that come out of oil. But for natural gas, it was about natural gas for heating. But it really had a huge impact on electricity generation. And so to be able to see that up close and

you know, talk to people about the environmental impacts and where it goes, how it operates. I just was, I was open to a new opportunity and was willing to jump in with both feet and it proved to be a really great, great option for me.

Yeah, that sounds really wonderful. And to be able to find these options for the both of you, for you and your wife, that's very special. So by that point, you had already taught at, I guess, three different law schools. I wonder, was there one that stood out among the three in granted Penn State was just getting started, right? And North Dakota's perhaps more established.

Speaker 1 (21:07.798)
or West Virginia, I don't know much about the law schools and their history.

North Dakota was an old law school. It's the only law school in the state. And so that was a great opportunity to get plugged in. still have contacts. We have former students. In fact, one of our former students is on the faculty at North Dakota now. Fantastic professor now. Great. I know people in the court system on the Supreme Court and the federal judge is there. So it was nice being part of a small bar.

And that was true when we went to West Virginia too. West Virginia is the only law school in the state of West Virginia. so that was a really, both were different places, places that I'd never visited until I interviewed. And so it was, I might've driven through West Virginia before, but I don't think I'd been to Morgantown anyway. It was really, both were great experiences and both were, when you're the only law school in the state.

You have a unique relationship, I think, with the bench and the bar. And so both were great experiences. You get very big skies in North Dakota, but the landscape in West Virginia was prettier, I will say. Not to say anything negative about my North Dakota experience, but the West Virginia mountains really were something special, especially this time of year.

Speaker 1 (22:41.176)
Thanks for listening. I really enjoyed this part of our conversation. I loved learning more about the important role Josh's wife has played in his career development and also learning about his open and grounded and receptive approach to life and to work.

So tune in on Wednesday to hear Josh's thoughtful and candid take on his role as Dean of a law school, his vision for this role, and all the responsibilities and the complexities it entails. Until then, be well and be happy.