Episode 52: Drowning in Data, Starving For Support

In this episode, The Stunt Brothers reflect on the growth of their podcast and preview an exciting lineup of upcoming guests, including educators, researchers, authors, and thought leaders from across Canada. The discussion then turns to a deeper theme: the role of data in education. As Roy and Martin draw on personal stories and listener feedback, our hosts question whether data truly supports students and teachers or simply adds stress and drives unhelpful comparisons. They emphasize that data only has value when it leads to meaningful action, resources, and support. This episode encourages educators, parents, and administrators to share their experiences, rethink how success is measured in schools, and focus on what really matters: relationships, learning, well-being, and authentic student growth. And just don't mention the F word!

Learn more at stuntbrothers.ca

Key Takeaways:

• Data collection in education often overwhelms teachers without providing tangible support.
• The overemphasis on data can detract from meaningful teaching and learning experiences.
• Despite extensive data collection, teachers frequently lack the resources needed to address identified issues.
• FSAs (Foundation Skills Assessments) are criticized for adding stress without improving educational outcomes.
• Teachers feel that data-driven approaches often fail to capture the nuances of student learning and engagement.
• The promise of data leading to additional classroom support is rarely fulfilled, leaving teachers frustrated.
• Data should be used to inform and enhance teaching practices, not just to evaluate performance.
• FSAs are seen as a tool for ranking schools rather than supporting student and teacher needs.
• Effective use of data requires a balance between quantitative metrics and qualitative insights.
• Teachers advocate for a more holistic approach to data that includes emotional and social aspects of learning.

Sound Bites:
"Teachers are drowning in data."
"Data for data's sake is frustrating."
"You can't put a number on feeling valued."

Keywords:
data collection, education, teacher support, FSAs, emotional metrics, classroom challenges, student success, educational data, teaching methods, school rankings, counselling support, educational assistants, emotional labor, data overuse

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Chapters

• 1:10 STS With The Stunt Brothers
• 12:44 The Nugget
• 25:13 The Homework Board
• 28:21 Detention Hall
• 31:09 Rearview Mirror

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.846)
The students are gone, but you are still here. And we know how you feel. Because you are. But you have so much work to do to get ready for tomorrow. Good afternoon podcast listeners everywhere. Welcome to After the Bell, a Stunt Brothers production. A podcast that gets inside the life of a teacher and provides a wellness guide for being prepared to take on this most challenging of professions.

question.

I'm Martin Stuible.

And I'm Roy Hunt, and we share your pain, having taught a combined 70 years. The guarantee of this podcast is to make you laugh, make you think, and give you at least one little nugget that you can use in the classroom. So get out your marking, organize your supplies, or just pour yourself a coffee. And listen, engage, and interact.

I want something stronger.

speaker-2 (00:57.762)
with After the Bell, a podcast for you, the hardworking, dedicated teacher who wants free lesson plans, free advice, and a free meal.

Okay, Roy, but I'm not paying for anything more than McDonald's.

Are you ready? Yes. I am. recording. We're on. We're on Mr. Hunt. That was fast.

Are you ready for this?

speaker-2 (01:18.222)
I thought there would be a buildup, a little bit of fanfare, a little trumpet.

Maybe... Then... I do.

I just press record. Bring on the magic. Okay.

Well, I don't know about the magic, I can bring some excitement. I'm very excited about our list of guests that we have for our podcast.

Okay.

speaker-0 (01:33.506)
That's good too.

speaker-1 (01:40.75)
Yeah, mean, we've hit these now. it is. Did you see?

50, episode 52, season.

Episode 15, season 2, episode 22.

There you go. we've got a lot more coming.

We a lot of guests and we-

speaker-2 (01:52.47)
a lot more. We have more field trips planned than we did last season.

Yeah, we didn't like the homework. I think that's It's a lot easier than homework.

We're gearing to-

gearing toward field

It's all experiential education. Hands on.

speaker-1 (02:07.787)
That's right.

Alright.

It partly is, it's just like, I want to testing. Yeah. I'll have a chat with them, you know, listen to that kind of often guides us, right.

What about this? This person sounds in trouble. Let's sit down. I hope you enjoy it.

They're like, wow, Roy and Martin really enjoy what they're doing. Too bad they're not talking about anything that I'm interested in.

speaker-1 (02:29.774)
No, I hear the offices though. people a lot, had, Watson was on, we had so many guests that have come on that have just wrapped up our numbers. We're doing really well. that's fantastic. Is Tina Parker? No. That is out now?

Parker

speaker-0 (02:43.704)
That's out. That was out last week.

No, for sure. Yeah, no, we have had many and we've got what I'm really excited about. We're kind of branching out with these next guests. Yes. other parts of Canada, other parts of So this is kind of getting beyond just what we've been doing. Absolutely.

Any

speaker-0 (02:54.584)
It's like the world.

speaker-2 (03:00.962)
Definitely getting beyond North Vancouver.

Well, the one guest that we have coming up that I'm excited about is Dr. Lily Yen. And she's a professor of mathematics at Capilano University. And part of our episode is talking to her about what makes a elementary school math class or elementary grade math class. That doesn't sound right.

It sounds good enough. Okay.

And so I'm excited about that because I know there's lots of people out there going, I'd like to know because I don't have textbooks and I'm photocopying my digits off.

And that's just teachers. And that's why I kind of like we have doctors coming. of doctors. We've had a Dr. Brian, Dr. Ryan, just add another PhD. It makes me feel, wow, surrounded by all these intelligent people. Right. But Dr. Misty who really kind of gets the heart

speaker-0 (03:48.672)
of our way of helping.

We have

speaker-0 (04:05.678)
Patterson.

to the help of and she just completed a PhD that explores an arts-based approach that acknowledges the stress, anxiety, and fatigue related to the emotional labor of teachings.

So that is why I think having her as a guest that will be on and that's fantastic. That's a mouthful. I know, know, know. These four more comments.

Next few weeks is fantastic.

speaker-2 (04:32.75)
We have someone who has just written a book, Lisa Bayliss. Right. And she wrote a book, Self-Compassion for Educators. Yeah. And I've read the book. Yeah. And enjoyed it quite a bit. And what's amazing is actually being able to talk to the author about the book. Yeah. And she has graciously said that she would come on our

Okay.

speaker-1 (04:56.568)
podcast. I like it because we're, aim is to have this episode out. North Van is holding a conference with the keynote speaker and she's doing workshop. So it will come out the week where people can get a chance to.

because we know that we have a experience with Lisa as she stops. So hopefully this episode will be as the before. Hear the podcast, learn more about Lisa, read her book, get in.

involved in the book club they have going in North Van on this topic. So another great guest. And I'm with another podcaster, is really great podcaster. He's from Surrey and he's great collector of people around North America. Yes, has guests. Yeah. And then I actually, you know,

And then we've connected with Tim Cavey, this is called Teachers on Fire.

speaker-0 (05:31.948)
He is just...

speaker-0 (05:35.982)
Sure. Erica, I find...

some amazing.

I there was four, but we also have Andrew from Wald Gardens is coming on too.

That's all I for that

So it's going to be, we've been looking to have a guest talk about technology.

speaker-1 (05:51.094)
to kind of in the class and looking at you know kind of the he was can now AI have unto another kind of some worries that this may not be the best thing in all cases and I don't think in any ways Andy

history when cell phones first came in. We jumped too quickly onto it and some signs.

not to say technology, he really provides great insight into something schools really, of walled gardens that I will go into now, what our school should be. There you go. So yeah, that's it.

things we need to think about and what they are and he has this concept called won't go but I think it's a beautiful metaphor for school

speaker-1 (06:24.942)
That's it, Are we done? We're done. Episode over. you sure? I know. I wish we were done. kind of, I'm a little under the weather. Yeah, I got some achiness as I speak to you with my spit flying in your direction. Doesn't that make you feel... I know, I should have called it.

So

That was good.

speaker-2 (06:36.33)
You're looking a little...

speaker-0 (06:40.558)
towards you.

speaker-2 (06:45.774)
You should have taken it too hard though, it?

Teach, remember we did an episode two, Six to Teach?

Too sick to podcast. So if you're not doing too well next week, maybe we know why, but I think you already had a little something. I had something So I'm gonna blame this on you.

Well, go ahead. Yeah. You can try.

My wife had it because she's a teacher, like everyone's sick. So, they're just going, I'm, thank God he got something, right? You can now feel our pain. Feel the pain. Even the class. Try to

speaker-0 (07:08.919)
Lister

speaker-2 (07:16.246)
I did when you're not feeling 100%.

Exactly, but I am in bit of a fog. I am in a bit of a fog today. I'm sitting across from me, be kind, I slip up, if I'm not quite as sharp as I usually am.

Listener Roy

speaker-2 (07:33.592)
But then fog is actually the word of, I'm going to say the word of the week, because we have had marine fog, unbelievable. Seven days, at least seven days.

Versions going on. It's like the atmosphere has been flipped around.

Not a cloud in the sky and this thick marine fog on the water. in the morning it's, it's, it's eerie is you can look out onto Vancouver and see the city floating on clouds. It is pretty amazing.

You know, Joanna Wagstaff? She's the meteorologist at CBC, which actually lives in North Van. And she was just talking about how it's this stuff, flipping of the atmosphere really, right? Clouds, coolness, above it, it's very warm. The mountains. was a weeks ago, and now it's gone.

Yes, it

speaker-0 (08:16.086)
So down here we have the

And the snow is melting on the mountain.

lot of snow there if you but this fog is also unusual because North Van we've been in sun

really low down like when where if you're in downtown Vancouver, it's been this fog. I, I don't know if it's that on. Sure. do remember last I was at Porto and there was falling in, might not have been the same year.

this fuck

speaker-2 (08:36.59)
quite warm. but I 10-11 degrees.

speaker-0 (08:42.061)
Amen.

Sure, this time.

same time.

was that that was December and this is January. We need, I need some, I need some more information. I want some data about when the fog, how many foggy days we've had.

It's close enough, I mean. No, it's not close.

speaker-1 (09:02.512)
my gosh.

speaker-1 (09:08.064)
Environment Canada get your data right? Yeah, I data data. Yeah, that's I want thing off. I want that

You say data, I say potato

be able to be able to inform my discussion.

Don't worry about data. I still remember. I think every day there's some new way of gathering data that does that data really help? I mean, come on. We remember the FSA.

you get me st-

speaker-0 (09:25.72)
They'll live with the teeth.

speaker-0 (09:31.574)
she's supposed to do to inform her and

Ha ha ha.

speaker-0 (09:42.466)
days, right?

I know they were great what they did. great. They collected this information and then they ranked your school so that you could look at your school and see how poorly it performed against private schools.

Right?

Surprise, Van topped the list every year. Said you actually figure how you do on this property value.

You know, someone's to out, test, you just have to look at the produce, right? And you could totally correlate. I know. I get on my soapbox about data because that thing, they actually, I get a visceral reaction to that because that's been a 25 year thing with us. And I just remember when I watched this, it was the worst that was in the FSA. It came in last.

speaker-2 (10:12.782)
It's a different data set.

speaker-0 (10:19.33)
the FSA.

speaker-0 (10:27.062)
remain. CBC report on the school.

This teacher is... ...CBC reporter. He ...we can hire.

CBC actually wasn't a teacher, he was a He embedded himself for a week. Remember that? Yeah. And it was incredible because when you watched this, you realized that's probably one of the best schools. Amazing.

see those teachers were made but on paper people would look down

upon that and that's all that did because

speaker-2 (10:52.782)
Because the numbers can tell you something if you look at the numbers. But you can't put numbers and you can't measure the connections that teachers make with their students. do you put a number on joy? How do you put a number on feeling part of something and feeling connected and feeling happy?

no.

speaker-1 (11:15.754)
A number undervol-

a meal to students that were hungry today, right? Those are all the things that those teachers were doing. it just

shows you does that really represent anything and did those FSA tests, did that data ever make cool? Did it ever more? I think that's what we need to kind of dive into this episode. think so too. Data does it? Does it help?

things better in a school, provide resources to support those teachers.

speaker-0 (11:38.478)
Does it help us? Does it just confuse us? Does it just... Sure. Or does it actually provide some... ...episodes. We'll dive into it. Our reaction to this, agree or disagree, go onto our website, there's .ca. I've actually blogged about this very episode. Feel free, give us your opinion. Send us an email, stuntbrothersrm at gmail.com.

make people feel that they're a bad teacher or actually report for the class. And like a lot of, we want you to, know, have a.

speaker-1 (11:56.078)
stunt brother. We have a blog.

speaker-1 (12:06.222)
com.

Tell us what you think about this. Maybe you're real advocate of data and when you listen to this episode, you want a little opinion and we...

You have a who share that.

And I'd love if someone's going to share an opinion, then share an opinion about how you've seen the use of data in a positive way.

Yeah. Talking heads now, we just get to say whatever we want. No consequences. Quite wonderful. Yes. It's the nugget time. We haven't done this for a while. wait for the sound and then we'll move on.

speaker-0 (12:25.272)
Where does

speaker-0 (12:33.23)
So let's listen for the sound.

speaker-0 (12:44.578)
There's that sound, the nug-

Good sound.

That's the sound of the nugget. That's the takeaway. Something that you can use in your classroom to improve your teaching.

And if you can just collect some more data. Yes. Well. We know teachers are overwhelmed with data.

We're on to this talk. Teachers are over. We know teachers collect data all the time and when they see a concern, they're gonna have school-based resource team meetings. Places when they have a student wanna get support. We had to push a.

speaker-1 (13:07.214)
They bring in Northbound. So they're, they want to report, but there is kind of way from data, think. But now it seems from when I, when I say data, I don't mean the T their data. It's more ministry data outside data outside. Teachers email and just know it's done.

themselves collecting

speaker-0 (13:26.968)
We actually asked.

to send us an email and let us know at stuntbrothersrm. That's stunt brother, no, yeah, stuntbrothersrm.com. So stuntbrothersrm.gmail.com. That's a place, if you ever want to reach us about anything or have a question or want to appear on the podcast with a thought, your place to get, there's other places you can post stuff to, but that's as well to contact the Stunt Brothers. So we asked and we did, asked.

Roy or the Mark that you got

speaker-1 (13:57.496)
we received.

Thank you listeners for giving us some information so that we just don't have to hear ourselves talk.

Exactly, so we're gonna shi-

So this is from Richard and Richard says I think it's good to have data but equally important is Knowing how to use it to guide your instruction. Otherwise, it's not helping you the kids or the

And I think Raymond kind of echoes that a bit. said, I'm a little here.

speaker-0 (14:28.078)
of a counter hit. It is what you do with the data that we use. Our science students take a test where we gauge their abilities on a task so we can create a goal for the year to help them out. On other hand though, excessive use of data collection and doing nothing needs to stop. So

matters.

speaker-1 (14:40.246)
wrong with that.

speaker-1 (14:45.608)
with the data. It's finding that balance I think.

What else?

And this is from Tom. And one of the questions was, why do we use data anyway? And he said, it's because data is quantifiable and only quantifiable information can be measured. There are no metrics to determine the quality of a relationship.

Okay.

and Sasha said, we seem to get away from too many tests when we ended government exams, but now all this burden seems to be on the.

speaker-1 (15:17.39)
.

primary years, and that's what I'm hearing. in government exams, 10, 11.

In BC we used to have grade 10 and 12, they've just have a few now for grade 12. This is an English thing for grade 10. More more data collection. I go back data data.

there's acting in. You have any notice? I don't know which way you got me onto this. I just think of the Star Trek. Yes. you do. wasn't data. It was data. Anyway, we are pushing it on the property years and I think it comes to good place. It's wanting to know where they're at when they're just starting. You can. That. But what does it bring? I that's where we're kind of.

Data.

speaker-0 (15:51.276)
no kids starting school because that's where help kids yes totally get

speaker-1 (16:01.442)
getting to the point and the. Bring does that extra day away bring more. That's what we're trying to find out.

part of this nugget here. What is it? It in any resources to the classroom. What else we got in here?

I have Sally and she says, my most recent teaching job, I spent more time at school completing data exercises to prove I'm doing my job than creating the learning experiences that my students actually enjoy.

think a lot of teachers end up feeling kind of.

this is a reflection of...

speaker-1 (16:32.622)
and I'm a bad teacher.

which it's not, but that's often the case. And I feel Omar has been listening to this episode live or something because he said just what I just. The data actually brought extra supports to my classroom. That would be.

Right here.

speaker-1 (16:41.569)
said if

speaker-1 (16:46.222)
fine, but it never does. All over my teaching. Yeah, no, it does.

All it does is cast a shadow.

Or over teachers. you're not doing enough. OK. This is from Kathy. OK. And I'd like to feel say that this one is, let's say this is creates a little pain or maybe I feel a migraine coming on when I read this. FSA. What a waste of time. All it does is make us judge schools. I've never seen it.

You can do the F word or you can do the

speaker-2 (17:21.998)
create one ounce of extra support in the classroom.

And that's, think, the heart we're getting to in this nugget. Does it provide extra...

of winter.

of extra supports if the data leads to some.

something, but I think the powers that we think dealing with the problem into it, but last thing we actually had to put an extra EA in that primary class.

speaker-0 (17:37.006)
This is a way to show they're put a little bit of money

They're going, but this is a lot.

speaker-0 (17:49.996)
Right? Or reduce class size or put a full-time counselor into the each school. All those things we've heard promises about have yet to see delivered. Right?

but we.

The idea that we do the FSAs at a, I think it used to be later in the year, now it's earlier, I think it's around October now. You're just starting to get your class, kind of the gel together.

Outside of BC and the FSAs are the foundation skills. Used to be done in grade 10, that grade 10 they take this seriously at all. they made them, they made. Yeah, the timing has changed.

We have a lot of listeners.

speaker-1 (18:22.766)
and it's done grade four, grade seven.

of a

Timing has changed. there are a few things I found about it that the tests for the grade sevens or for the grade fours, because those are the two, grade groups, groupings that are tested that the way the tests were written, actually created a lot of stress for the students, especially the grade fours, think about the grade fours. They were in primary, they're in, now they're in the beginning of an intermediate class.

some of the math skills that were asked. It was almost like you had to teach before the FSAs were provided so that your students could have some success. And then in the end, when your first report card comes out in the first term, just before Christmas, the FSAs are marked by that time and sent home with the students.

Right.

speaker-1 (19:33.238)
Yes, and the problem with that is it Yes, so Blame them they don't understand that F To that report cards that the teachers spend our our and collecting drone hours, right?

home at the same time as the report card. To a parent, and I

for say has equal weight.

and ORS do. There are a lot of data.

the report card that the families have to go online, remember a password, and then print off to show their kids or for them. But what comes home first? Something that's already printed off. And I've often had parents contact me and say, why did my...

speaker-2 (20:18.656)
son or my daughter do so poorly on the FSA.

speaker-2 (20:25.752)
A test that I didn't write. A test that, you know, none of the, I would say there's no, no test like that given throughout the school.

No, no, I'm snapshot at that moment on that day. My report card, far Richard snapshot. Yes.

And all I would say is, just a s-

speaker-0 (20:44.046)
as a large took many more pictures. So I think you need to trust in little test. I was a grade seven teacher. They're great.

my report card more than that one. And I remember even actually got to school and this other teacher came in and she said, you got to come and help me. There's a parent just yelling and screaming at me and it was, and he was, you know, her child had done minimally meets level, getting a doing very well.

about the FSAs.

I guess to whatever it was a lower, this child was a child and he just couldn't believe that this was. Ligerent actually. There was some.

And so I came in and he was just blabbing and I should be going on, tell you, cause it was a female teacher. like, that's another episode.

speaker-0 (21:24.392)
He was just over the top about how well this is this test this is I run a business and this clearly is She's done. I said it's just a snapshot You come see me I cuz I actually taught that child we did tuning I thought I said she's gonna do great in grade 8. She's an a student come to me next year If you go and school you find

You know.

showing how poorly and I said shot and I me I said

to slide.

speaker-1 (21:47.104)
said.

report in those grade eight teachers that she's not doing well, you come down and you say to me, I told you so.

Told you so. I never saw that man again. Yeah, because he did fine.

Right?

And I can remember, initially they started posting or ranking the schools based on the FSA results. I don't think they do now.

speaker-1 (22:12.043)
How do they?

I haven't, you're right.

Because the Fraser Institute would release them and the newspapers would always...

and I haven't seen that and I haven't seen that. The current government was able to get that so that doesn't happen anymore.

speaker-2 (22:26.19)
Because I could remember being at my school, a community school, our teachers working really hard in creating a great environment for our students to learn. You could walk in the school and you would see amazing things happen. And I remember looking at our results and we were in the bottom, I'm say the bottom 10.

Okay, well. Oh wow. Yeah.

all schools in BC. And I could remember like the staff being so deflated, moralized about it. You know what saying? what? How could, we knew our students were struggling. We knew that they needed assistance. That's, know, that's why we were working so hard with them. But to have that sort of pushed into your face,

He did.

Demoralized,

speaker-0 (23:10.838)
That

struggling with

speaker-2 (23:23.118)
And I'm sure many schools in BC that were in the lower end of the rankings saw their student populations drop and those schools that performed had more students, a greater student increase.

Well?

speaker-1 (23:42.572)
especially when the boundaries became more, right? You could cross boundaries. I remember having a very heated conversation and they were looking at a certain area, certain school and they said, I looked at the FSA and doing very well, so it can't be a very good school. We want to move there. go, have you walked around, right? Just because on paper, the FSA says this,

fluid.

Private school. Being at the top.

talking to a friend.

because they were looking for a new house, right?

speaker-0 (23:57.742)
and that school is very good. Been in the building.

speaker-0 (24:11.214)
Really know what a school is like. You got to open the front door, look at those teachers. You get a vibe right away. What's the administrator like when they greet you? What's the office like? What does it look like? Are there happy kids? Do teachers look full of life and vibrancy? Right? You sense it right away. There's some data that does not give you any indication of.

like you.

speaker-1 (24:17.218)
Hey, yes

speaker-2 (24:29.058)
sense of

speaker-1 (24:33.834)
So this is why I think we've hit this.

topic quite heatedly, right? And we want to get to the nugget. As I said before, data is only useful if it leads to action. And most of the time it doesn't. doesn't. If it provides that extra counselor to your school, that extra class, then of course this is important data. And it's just data for data's sake, which I think more and more teachers are seeing as something else on their plate. That plate is full. They become demoralized.

Right. Right. then. Yes. Well, think we.

speaker-1 (24:54.569)
EA in your

speaker-1 (25:06.562)
and they become exhausted in this profession.

They just lost it and that's what we're seeing. So data for data's sake, no good.

you

speaker-1 (25:18.574)
What's that sound? What's that sound? And there's the report.

Sound of the Homer.

Homework? Yeah.

Let's have a look because we've gone on a lot of field trips.

We have more field training and I know I'm happy when it's a field trip.

speaker-2 (25:32.494)
Well, I'm not happy about doing some homework. It's been such a long time since I've done homework. I don't want to do any homework. So make it easy.

No field trip this week.

Let's make it easy for everyone. We want to hear from you. know, we shared. Yes. But we really want to hear more on this. I've got a data collection. Yeah. Yeah.

We shared some comments from this

or from listeners on top.

speaker-0 (25:53.194)
Yeah, things that you like about data or data, things you find exhausting, things you support, experiences you've had in your classroom. And, or if you're a parent, things you've seen as a parent, why you advocate for data, why you also see it's not useful. Administrators, what it's like for you, trying to bring in all these new, often from the ministry, right? Top-down kind of ideas that maybe you don't support. So we want to hear from you and we have many ways you can reach us.

on our

speaker-1 (26:24.266)
Can you name one? Website. website, stuntbrothers.ca. Okay. When there's all kinds of pages, the page and guests, the homework.

What a a

our web and I always for every episode

There's the Nugget page, but there's always a that's connected to this episode. And there's a comment section. So you can go to the latest part of that on the very top of the homework board and give us your comments about data collection. How do you feel? And you can also send us an email, which is stuntbrothersrm at gmail.com. Fire off an email.

Sorry.

speaker-1 (26:46.702)
How do you like them apples?

I like them.

speaker-1 (26:56.718)
That's another way we can hear from you.

There's a lot of ways they can contact us.

There's those TikTok videos. Follow us on TikTok.

If we do. yes. You can. Right.

goofy and silly but it seems to gather attention out there.

speaker-1 (27:10.382)
from my student sandwich way. you can make comments there.

For once, all these likes you're...

speaker-1 (27:23.374)
I love them.

Facebook page. Facebook teaching tips with a twist and we have a good healthy group of community there. Anybody can join. It's another place where you can hear your voice or we can hear voice or we can read your voice.

after the bell.

speaker-1 (27:30.606)
And that and

speaker-1 (27:37.734)
We can read your And imagine what you sound like. Yes. Right? We can just create an A. Or maybe now you can actually leave a recording on. To hear your voice. Actually, do that, Yeah, and Instagram, we're there too. I put us on Blue Sky. I put us on threads. I started Substack. We're everywhere, man. We are everywhere. Yeah, I know. there's no use to not place.

The iVoice for you.

speaker-0 (27:46.126)
on their tooth. could actually.

speaker-2 (28:00.302)
I even know what substa-

No excuse to find a place to voice your opinion on things we've said here at AFK.

But is

Isn't that what they say? Build it and they will come. That's what I...

That's I'm hoping. Exactly, yeah. Some baseball player will appear. So there you go.

speaker-0 (28:18.658)
There you go.

speaker-0 (28:24.034)
sound, your favorite sound, that I got rid of that sound, stop and you said actually

I don't mind that sound. I don't mind that sound. Yeah, the air-rate siren. Yes.

I'm so happy that when I had to go into the detention hall, that they didn't have that sound. Roy, detention hall.

That would be, my god, wow.

speaker-1 (28:47.576)
Thanks.

Before I hunt to the office, please.

But we have an easy candidate to go into the detention. I think it's words I never actually want to say again. The F word, the F S A. F S A. Right. Even when I was working in the MBTA office and we'd have our yearly campaigns against the F S A and teaching.

even in the office.

speaker-0 (29:08.103)
were so good loyal people and they hand them out to parents

Remember those pamphlets? They were good.

they would deliver. And here we are 30 years later dealing with FSAs. I don't want to talk about FSAs. I'm glad that I don't think they're doing

still

speaker-0 (29:22.286)
the end anymore. I am sick of the ranking of schools as much so at least the hope that we have not brought any more support.

Maybe that's reached that, but they're used to the class. so let's put them in the detention hall.

I mean, I can remember tears of students looking at the evisceration. This is nothing like any test that they had written before. crying. Or some administrator saying, if a student's away, then that's OK. Just hand in the book with what they have completed. And I've had other administrators saying, well, if the students are away, you must take your time and complete the entire.

booklet. So I said, are the students going to for a week? Well, okay.

And that's what, that actually changed. That was a reaction to our very successful campaign about nine because I'm one year I had the FAA because parents were.

speaker-0 (30:14.154)
success 2008 or 2000 remember three kids show up to write I say holy supporting teachers and didn't send their kids in in grade seven on to that administrative

And so I guess the board got... ...tasked with the job of... Home.

No, you find those kids, you call them and-

Can you imagine parents saying you don't have to write it? The student making the executive decision not to write it and then an administrator coercing them to write

I know. Yeah.

speaker-0 (30:48.888)
for something that's useless. The energy for that administrator to have to give out.

Yeah. Put it in the hall. Yeah.

Lock the door. There you go. It's gone. We shall never utter those words again. It'll be like Voldemort, right? That shall not be named.

Yes.

speaker-0 (31:11.81)
There's rear view mirror. Gonna look into the past because he always say.

You can't go forward. You don't know where you came from. Check that mirror. the problem is you realize, Oh God, we've just gone back. The same things all the time. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I found, I found something, my friend. I I found an

or looking into the past where you came from.

is when you do this back and forth around

speaker-0 (31:35.886)
An article from the Vancouver Sun from 2008 that I... It's a short history of standardized testing here in British Columbia.

share with listeners.

speaker-1 (31:43.394)
be a cat. You'll see there's some D that's gonna happen here. I'm dreading this actually but it's by Stephen Hogan who often was the educational reporter for the Vancouver Sun. Okay.

That sounds like fun reading.

speaker-0 (31:48.952)
P.T.S.

speaker-0 (31:53.965)
jam.

speaker-0 (31:58.446)
know that and so she talked to Jerry Musil who worked for the education ministry until 2001 asked him to provide her with a background on the history standardized testing and

of.

speaker-1 (32:12.056)
data collecting going back.

to the 1800s. Wow. So let's share this with our faithful listeners.

Faithful listeners.

All right. Well, preventional examinations were administered in 1876. Standardized achievement tests and IQ tests were administered during the period of 1925 to 1973. Students were tested on their reading, writing, and mathematics, and they were commonly tested during the period. There were concerns, however, over the use of these tests.

Kids.

speaker-2 (32:47.502)
that led to the cancellation of this program by the NDP, Minister Eileen Daly. And 1973, Ms. Daly also confirmed a 1969 Socr decision to phase out grade 12 exams by 1970.

The pool named it. The pool in Burnaby named it.

speaker-0 (33:08.182)
See, you, listen, you'll realize, is old is new, or is new is old again. things, grade 12 go, they come, then the new government says, like them, and then data make, let's replace them again. IQ test, have you ever had an IQ test? Yeah. well, what?

That's why the rear view mirrors are little scary sometimes.

like exams.

Hey, we don't like it. And they take it and they. So that comes back. Now, when I saw. Yes, I have. What were you? Yeah.

I have no idea.

speaker-0 (33:32.494)
They didn't give you the result? didn't give you the data?

That was... I didn't... They... No, no, no, yeah, I've never done one. explained it. Yeah.

have no idea.

And they pointed out that if you were here, were, you know, had a high IQ, that no one said, hey, that's you, Roy.

So this guy,

speaker-0 (33:55.726)
Jerry Musial, worked in the ministry. He, when he started with 1973, he was asked by Mrs. Daly that he takes the lead in developing a new student assessment program that would fill the hole left with the cancellation of grade 12 exams and the standardized testing program. that. Wow.

Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (34:06.158)
program.

speaker-1 (34:12.833)
when he came up with something called PLOP. Which is name? It was a and plop. exactly. It was established in for

That's a great

the provincial learning assessment.

speaker-0 (34:22.382)
1975 grades 4, 8, and 12 for numbers. I was just random sampling where they would get a sense. Which is a great idea. Yeah, it wasn't every student with the results being sent home. It was just going, our grade 4 and 8, 12 students, you know, they're doing well.

of years and I believe it's kind of a red

speaker-1 (34:37.684)
on reading and writing and arithmetic.

And then when grade 12 exams were introduced in 1984, some PTSD there.

That was my first.

was the grade 12 student in 1984.

get it,

speaker-0 (34:53.197)
50 % of the exam that never existed before you couldn't study from 50 % by Bill Van He always said I want to teach these kids how to

of the Education Minister, Rees-Ham, who became Premier.

They're writing English good.

Right English, good me.

The plot was shifted to grades four, seven, and ten. of us suffer exams at

speaker-1 (35:16.586)
and the rest us had to deal with government came back. There you go.

Well, as part of Socrad government's efforts to restore confidence in the public school, right? Because we know people don't have confidence in public schools, we need to have exams. So there was a grade 12, grade 12 exams were reintroduced in 1984. School results were issued, although I can't recall if they were made public.

It's always political.

speaker-1 (35:46.094)
and I don't think they were. think there's some information later that will show that, right? Yeah, because that clearly I don't think it's that came out. But then.

I don't remember any ranking in the schools or... This gentleman, he was asked to take the lead in meeting with stakeholders and developing...

the

I'm sorry, do it would you let me put my hand on your

the address. This gentleman, Jim, he's the one that I

speaker-0 (36:21.89)
He developed the FSA. He said the major difference between PLA and FSA, there's so, I mean, there's, we need to know whole episode now. Right? There's.

No acronyms. think we did maybe once. Nowhere that has as many acronyms as education. It gets tiring.

So he said the major difference between PLOP and FSA and PLOP and FIZ. One, tests in reading, writing, and math would be administered.

every year by the night.

1990s

speaker-0 (36:55.746)
was used sporadically, individual student results would be reported and issued to parents. The production of school results, as noted earlier, was not FSA.

It had been done by Platt, there's no way to ever.

It's a big help.

However, what was new at this time was that FOI or the Freedom of Information Legislation was brought in and it enabled outside agencies, i.e. the Fraser Institute to extract student testing data and produce new sets of statistics for the public and influence public discussion. That's what it is. It was discussion, right?

That was brought in, yeah.

speaker-1 (37:28.386)
You're at it.

speaker-2 (37:40.386)
This is a crappy school. This pushed the ministry to begin displaying school by school data on its way.

hahahaha

speaker-1 (37:48.33)
And that was where the beginning of the end was. I don't want to say this. I thought we were done with FSAs. Now I have to end this episode.

I think this should

speaker-0 (37:57.912)
Feeling even more under the weather now. I'm even more in a fog than I was at the-

beginning. I've now discovered

The gentleman who's responsible for the FSA, where this data got, is it going to give me some more support? I need support.

I need support right now, my friend. need support? And I find the day we uncorporate today is not providing the support I need.

data.

speaker-2 (38:19.894)
feel like it's adding anything to me.

I think we're all done for the episode. That's the good sound.

and a good place to end episode 52 after the.

Until next time.

This podcast is organic, taking shape with each episode. Building resiliency for teachers everywhere. That sounds great. And our website is stuntbrothers.ca. That's C. We will chat again. After the bell.

speaker-2 (38:42.742)
stuntbrothers.ca