Episode 53: Talking Mathematics With Dr. Lily Yen

Roy takes the reins in this episode as Martin admits he is not feeling 100%. Reflecting on a recent last-minute call to substitute in an elementary classroom, Roy describes what started out as an ordinary day quickly became an eye-opening snapshot of the state of math instruction in many schools. As the Stunt Brothers compare notes, a picture emerges of teachers stitching together units from multiple sources, students working through worksheets pulled from online marketplaces, and everyone doing their best to make it work despite resource shortages. With all of this going on it raises the question of what does a good elementary math program actually look like? To find out, our duo decides to go on a field-trip-style quest for answers. And where better to start than with someone who studies math education, teaches it, and trains others to teach it well?

Dr. Lily Yen is a professor of mathematics at Capilano University and the driving force behind the SNAP Math program. Dr. Yen’s work centers on building mathematical thinking, deepening conceptual understanding, and helping future teachers develop clarity and confidence in their own math instruction.

Learn more at stuntbrothers.ca

Takeaways

• The importance of removing the fear associated with math education.
• Teachers should focus on building connections with their students.
• Diversity in the classroom is a strength that should be embraced.
• Math education should be inquiry-based and engaging.
• The SNAP Math program fosters creativity and problem-solving skills.
• Mentorship for new teachers is crucial for their development.
• Understanding is more important than rote practice in math education.
• Technology can enhance learning but should be used wisely.
• Teachers need to be equipped with a deep understanding of math concepts.
• Creating a love for math in students is essential for their success.

Get Involved

• Rate & Review on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/after-the-bell-a-stunt-brothers-production/id1788804386
• Rate & Review on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0OD77C1YjJOjwwBfsnnu1u
• Follow the show with our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/941827558047720/
• Visit our website: https://stuntbrothers.ca/

Chapters

• 1:10 STS With The Stunt Brothers
• 7:21 Fieldtrip With Dr. Lily Yen
• 1:12:01 Wrap Up With Roy and Martin

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.846)
you

The students are gone, but you are still here. And we know how you feel. Because you are done. But you have so much work to do to get ready for tomorrow. Good afternoon podcast listeners everywhere. Welcome to After the Bell, a Stunt Brothers production. A podcast that gets inside the life of a teacher and provides a wellness guide for being prepared to take on this most challenging of professions. I'm Martin Stuvall. And I'm Roy Hunt. And we share your pain.

having taught a combined 70 years. The guarantee of this podcast is to make you laugh, make you think, and give you at least one little nugget that you can use in the classroom. So get out your marking, organize your supplies, or just pour yourself a coffee. I want something stronger. And listen, engage, and interact.

with After the Bell, a podcast for you, the hardworking, dedicated teacher who wants free lesson plans, free advice, and a free meal. Okay, Roy, but I'm not paying for anything more than McDonald's.

Well, there you go, Mr. Hunt. This is episode 53. So, season two, episode 23? Hey, your math is getting better. Well done. Thank you. I'm not getting better. It's cold. It doesn't seem to go, right? Yeah, it's just hanging on for a while. was just so arrogant when my wife kept bringing home things from the classroom. And look at me, my immune system's the best.

speaker-1 (01:41.998)
And now look at me. Wow. What's hanging on. I'll let you do some talking. Tell me, what have you been up to? Well, I've been in the classroom. I got called in. It was interesting because usually you can get a call the day before. You can get something from the dispatch board. You can get a call in the morning at five o'clock in the morning or later. But this call was like 20.

After eight school starts at you know, most places like 940 945 940 840 Yeah, 840 45 so like 20 minutes later. Yeah, so you're like what? they said could you know I was I was up I have a morning regime that I go through, you know and get ready so I was I was Ready, I was mentally prepared to like dash. No, but you know

I was awake. And so they said, can you come in? And I said like, okay, I will. And it was not far from my house. So, I mean, it wasn't like I had to drive far. So in fact, I walked. So I said, okay, I'll go. So I went to the school and I said, hi. they said, we're so happy you were here. We did this last minute thing. And I said, no kidding, right? You're on. You're on. So I went to the classroom and because it was the last minute thing, there was no day plan.

Right, but I'm a professional. You are. I've heard. a professional TTOC. I've heard. And so I went into the classroom and I looked at yesterday's day plan and I was able to cobble something together and students came in and I said, is what I have on the board. And it was grade four or five class. They were amazing. Nice. Right? They were...

helpful and they said, okay, this is what we normally do this time. Yes. We don't do that anymore. Right. We don't do English. We to the computer lab for two hours. play games. Yes. Very helpful class. They're very helpful. Anyways, so I was able to, uh, cobble everything together. And then after recess, I thought that they had mathematics. So I love mathematics, right? jam. Right. So

speaker-1 (04:01.218)
I asked them, what do you do for mathematics? And one of students said, nothing. We don't do math. We don't do math in this class. I said, OK. And so I said, do you have textbooks? And they said, well, not enough for everybody. What? And they said, well, we have some textbooks. Journeys. People hoarded those. They were falling apart.

Graffiti over everything, no covers, but people were hiding their journeys so they could keep on teaching the journey's way. think principals had to sneak into the school at midnight to get rid of them. And then, you know, I said, do you use math makes sense? And one of the students said to me, it doesn't make sense to me. That's the problem. One extreme to the other. OK, so let me get this right.

You have math textbooks, you don't have enough for a whole class. said, yes. I said, so what did you do yesterday? Oh, we had a handout. Oh, I said, what was it? Oh, it was a bunch of papers and it was teachers pay teachers. People go there, don't they? Right, okay. And I said, was a multiplication and I got, maybe. You do the math.

speaker-1 (05:28.536)
So I said, okay. And so I just tried to figure out what strand they were on. And I looked around the class. I was able to find some manipulatives. I found some dice. And so I know there are some games for, off the top of my head, I know there are some games that I play this game called Pig, which I love, it's using dice and things like that. Look at you go. Yeah. Wow. And so I'm going, well, what is a math program in Element?

It's all over the map now, I think, right? And teachers have been left so much on their own in terms of getting all the materials together to make it successful. And I think people are scrambling when it comes to a good math program. Yes. So I think maybe that should be our topic for this episode. Wow, really. So you, We could just listen to you. Listen to me? I could talk about math forever, but you know, I'm,

Let's go on not an expert. go on a field trip. A field trip. I think we'll go on a field trip. I love the idea of a field trip. I think that instead of having our listeners listen to me, we'll go on a field trip. Why don't we go on a field trip to talk to a professor of mathematics. Professor of mathematics. Nice. So in this field trip, we're going to visit a professor of mathematics from Capitol Island University. And her name is Lily Yen. Doctor Lily Yen.

And she heads up the SNAP program, I think, as well. She's kind of pioneered that at at Cap University. And both you and I have participated in Yes, we have. Taking our classes there. So we have experience with the results of her working with the students at Cap University. So I like it. It's a great You know, I like field trip day, right? No homework on field trip day. No homework days. And I do the math. There you go. You do the math and we're all good. let's hop on the bus and go on our field trip. OK.

speaker-1 (07:25.55)
What's that sound? What's that sound? And that's the sound of the homework board. And as I said earlier, we do not have homework, which makes me smile. Yes. We are going on a field On a field trip. Tell us about our guest for our field trip. Well, our guest is Dr. Lily Yen, a long-time mathematics educator who's taught mathematics and statistics at Capilano University since 2000. She is deeply passionate about mathematics education. Her journey began as a student in

Canadian mathematics competitions and evolved through extensive outreach, including training the Canadian International Math Olympiad team, didn't know we had one, speaking at the 2004 International Congress of Mathematics Education in Copenhagen, and introducing the Snap Math Fair to Capilano University. Beyond academia, Dr. Yen brings her love of learning and creativity into her community through music.

mentoring, gardening, baking, and a lifelong curiosity. Nice, nice. Let's go.

speaker-1 (08:34.434)
I would like to start by asking if I know Dr. Yen, may I call you Lily? Yes. Thank you so much. Excited to be here. We are very excited to be here. I've been planning a series of things on mathematics and talking about how to teach specific subjects in elementary schools. So this is very exciting and I love mathematics.

Yes, yes, we've gone.

speaker-2 (08:56.462)
That's wonderful to speak with somebody who loves it.

All right, so we're going to start with our ABC 123. I'm going to give you two choices and you just, whichever one just you feel that, that's a choice I would make. All right, and if you don't know, you can say both. Yeah, I can. Right? So A, algebra or baking.

baking. okay.

B, numbers or musical notes? Wow. C, research or lecture?

musical notes.

speaker-2 (09:34.434)
research.

There you go. Nice. Fantastic. one, two, three. Do you have a favorite teacher from your childhood that you can think of that pops into your mind when I ask that? Yes.

Yes. Um, my grade five, six teacher in Taiwan was my favorite. And after I immigrated to Canada as a grade nine student, I kept in contact with her through letters all the way until her death. Oh, wow. an age 92. That the teacher was not only great at teaching us, she encouraged us in extracurricular activities. And that was

quite novel because Taiwan Taiwanese education at that time was under tons of pressure for entrance exams and placing in great high schools and all the teachers took music classes exercise classes for academic reasons but this teacher was different she let us do all the music classes all the exercises because she felt those were important

That kind of that mirrors something that's happened to me recently. So my favorite teacher was my grade four and five teacher I had it for two years and I've recently reconnected with her and I had a big get-together It was 50 years ago. I was in her class and I had a get-together with some of her former students I tracked them down and we got together at my place and she was a breath of fresh air I think a lot of the other teachers had probably started teaching in the 50s and was more old-school style, right? You know, I stand at the front of the room. She was young

speaker-1 (11:08.976)
24 years old and just got us doing things and I she got me into writing that I still love to this day so it was wonderful to be able to connect with her again. number two is there a book that you've read in the last 10 years on any topic that really spoke to you? there a book that stands out?

Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-2 (11:28.782)
Yes, I am. My mother was a child psychologist study that in order to teach her vocational school high school students how to become good parents and good teachers. So she had all these psychology books at home and I loved reading psychology books as a kid from her collection and then recently I was introduced to this book. What happened to you?

talking about resilience and healing by Dr. Perry, Bruce Perry and Oprah, Winfrey Oprah. And it was talking about how we should, instead of asking what's wrong with you when a child behaved in a strange way, we need to ask what happened to you instead. And I learned so much from it and it helped me become a better teacher, trauma-informed teacher, and also help myself in healing.

healing journey.

I love that because it takes away the onus on the student as they've done something wrong. What happened to you? Let's build on that. That's wonderful. Number three, if you had only one piece of music that you had to listen to, say you're on a deserted island, right? You don't have to listen to it over and over again till you're sick of it, but there's only one piece that you have on that island. Do you have a piece that you would listen to?

think this is an unfair question because you're asking a musician and a mathematician can kind of rearrange the question a little bit so that I turned it into a big piece instead of just a single piece so I can say, well, I'm going to bring Bach's Well-tempered Clavier.

speaker-2 (13:13.902)
Book one and book two with me and then I've got 24 preludes and fugues on each book and I can just have a wonderful time learning them again.

Roy, I think we have a problem solver. Yes, we do. I love that. That is a problem solving answer. So go ahead. Yes. All right. So could you now share a little bit about your journey, the journey that you were on that led you to teaching at Capilano University?

I would like to build on your story, how you were led to Japan and taught in Japan for four years. It was a miracle listening to that totally just perchance and how things lined up and you grab that opportunity. Same thing with me. In my situation, I had my PhD from the University of Pennsylvania in math.

I was all lined up to do great research. got a postdoctoral fellowship from NSERC and had my postdoc at the University of Waterloo until I got my first child in Waterloo. And at that time, life just took a totally different turn. Instead of totally focused on being a research mathematician, finding a professorship to do research and teaching at university,

I quit everything and decided to bring the child back to Burnaby where I have family support so that they can help me. And we, as parents, my husband and I, established a tutoring center and we could teach while looking after our child ourselves. But that didn't last long on a restless mind because by the time the second child was almost two, I was going crazy as a stay at home mom.

speaker-2 (15:10.23)
And so I reached out to my mentors, Dr. Palmer and Mrs. Palmer, who worked at SFU for a long time, professor of physics and a chemistry lab instructor. And I shared this case of a student who was struggling to get into SFU with a 100 % final exam in math. At that time, we still had provincial final. And I went to them and said, what should I do with this student? And they said, where does a student live?

I said, North Vancouver. And they right away said, go to Capilano university. That cap at that time was cap college. It was the best place where they prepare the students with lab work and everything. Knowledge was great. And their students always do so well at SFU. And then right away I said, would that be a good place also for me to work? And they said, of course you're going to love the people there. So that was August when I had the.

conversation with them. And in the end of August, I had my CV ready. I dropped it at cap and it was a Friday Monday. got a call coming for an interview. They happen to have one section ready for me to teach. And immediately I went in for the interview. I got the position as a session. And in less than a year, they turned me into a regular. I could not take a full time load. It was only 50 % and I stayed around there.

for all my career there because I small children, three kids I brought up and our tutoring business. But it's just that chance. It's amazing opportunity for me to learn from other people, to have colleagues outside of home and to expand my mind on what good teaching meant. Because at university, both in Ivy League school and in big universities, nobody was there to guide me to become a better teacher.

But here at CAP, we took teaching so seriously that we would mentor new teachers. And so I just felt that I was extremely privileged to have the opportunity to learn from the best teachers.

speaker-1 (17:22.681)
That's great. Thank you for sharing. And just if I can connect to that because I went to CAP, it was CAP College for my first two years in 1984. And even then, I know the statistics show the students that went there for the first two years succeeded far better at SFU and UBC. And it's because those teachers, they cared about teaching. They were real teachers. They weren't just lecturers that had 100 kids in front of them, right? And you felt that the moment you walked in their door. So that's great.

3535 students. Yeah, I always tell my students are they're getting $200,000 education at cap while paying maybe less than one tenth of that. Because in the states where I got my grads grad degree, they were considered boutique universities, colleges, when you have small classes and teachers who care about the students.

Those universities are extremely expensive, not affordable, generally for Canadians. And so this is a great news, it's just a gem that's waiting to be discovered.

So was mathematics something that you were always good at even as a child?

That's another story because as a Taiwanese student, I had no idea what I was good at. I enjoyed learning everything. And in junior high, when we were all preparing for a senior high entrance exam to be placed at the best senior high school and so on, I thought I was extremely good at history and physics. So if I had a choice, I would have chosen those subjects to study at university.

speaker-2 (19:07.298)
But the Taiwanese system usually would just put you in categories. And if I had gone through that system, they would have placed me in some medical school somewhere. didn't matter that I didn't like medicine and I could not stand blood and I could not do shift work. They would still put me in that. But because of the immigration that my parents embarked on after the

Taiwanese government backed out of united nations because Nixon recognized China. My parents felt Taiwan was not safe and had to get the kids out. So when I arrived as a grade nine kid I was good at nothing. I thought I was advanced in English. I could parse extremely complex English sentences but I could not speak and I could not understand a word.

The only thing I could say was my telephone number and the address when the teacher gave me an interview. So since I became the dumbest in class, had nothing except math. That was the only subject I excelled on. And the teachers had no idea what to do with this kid who's maybe around two years in advance, advance of everybody else in BC math curriculum. So I was popular with

My classmates, they all thought that I was a genius finishing school homework in five minutes when they were still struggling after half an hour. And I went through one month in Lord bin one month in Moscow until they placed me in a good ESL program at that time in Mike first and Burnaby. And there I met Mr. Mendez in grade 10 and great night, I think. And Mr. Mendez.

didn't know what to do with me because everything he was teaching i knew already so he gave me contest he gave me those math contest from waterloo and i got. Yes i bet time it was it was not gouse anymore i think great night great and it was something else. But they hadn't finally divided into grades yet and so instead of learning math with a class.

speaker-1 (21:10.337)
The ghost test,

speaker-2 (21:26.358)
I was just sitting there figuring out these contest problems and that was the first time I was faced with contest problems. I did not know that they could be so creative. They could mix all the math skills you learn and very basic ones too and make you think deeply. And at that time we're struggling as an ESL student. So math with words was difficult and I was learning English at the same time and it was the best way to learn English well.

Because if you don't understand a math question just by missing one word, you could miss the whole meaning. And that's how I came to love math because I love solving those contest questions purely perchance. then, then of course, as from a Taiwanese family, parents expected that when you go to university, you would study something useful that you could make money on so that you could become independent because we're first generation immigrants.

and i had to fight my parents to say i really love math could i please study math so finally they gave in i got a chance to really think about whether i really want to study math and my mentors the palmers convinced me to participate in a semester in budapest at that time it was still before eighty nine i'm sorry i i went in eighty seven and that was before the war

came down so it was still behind the iron curtain, extremely closed, very difficult, but I had such a wonderful time just one semester doing nothing else but math and that helped me decide that I really want to study math. It was just the joy, the joy of learning math.

It must have been hard though. mean, I would imagine when you come with your parents and they feel they sacrificed everything for you here. So there you feel that pressure that, well, if they want me to become a doctor, I better do that or a lawyer, right? So to stand up for that and go, no, I love math here.

speaker-2 (23:28.302)
But I think I'm also very lucky I was a girl and I was allowed more to choose what I wanted because a girl they thought well, okay Maybe somebody else would be able to take care of you So, okay if you study math and you can be independent and just make a living for yourself You don't have that burden of feeding a family still so I got away with it

Okay, could you tell us a little bit about SnapMath and what inspired you to bring it to Capilano University?

Yeah, that was a beautiful story, felt. I was, from doing all those math contests, I became so involved that I was selected to become a member of the International Math Olympiad. So representing Canada, the Canadian Olympian. And because of that involvement, later on as a math instructor at CAP, I was approached by the Canadian Math Society.

contest division and said, would you be interested in coming to help train our potential math Olympians? So every year, Canada would choose six students, high school students to represent Canada to compete internationally in math Olympia. And this is international math Olympiad. And since I participated as a grade 12 student, they felt that I might be able to train them. And when I was training there,

my art team leader was a professor from University of Alberta who had lots and lots of experience in training these Olympians he was hired by the USA math Olympia team he was hired he was participated in the Canadian one and and so when I was so excited working under him learning so much from him and I said wow can we do more for these contest students and he said actually his pay

speaker-2 (25:30.69)
His passion was on bringing math to average students, to all students. And he told me this SNAP Math Fair, Student-Centered Non-Competitive All-Inclusive Problem-Based Math Fair, that he and some other mathematicians in Alberta founded. These are founders, and they wanted to bring this all over the world. And there was nobody doing it in BC at that time.

and he just chose me as ambassador and said, Lily, you've got to come to this SNAP Math Fair conference in Banff. So I went one year, I came back with this news, I said to my department, we have to do this. And then next year, I brought two colleagues from CAP and show them that yes, we want to participate, we're going back with a mission. Not only are we going to incorporate this Math Fair into our Math 190.

so elementary school math education for our students, but we are going to help the Math Fair Foundation make a documentary. I'm going to involve our movie department, so the films department at CAP, and those students are going to come and shoot a documentary on how an instructor would get this started in our course to get our students to follow the timeline, put up...

the fair together with their puzzle, their questions, and fit it to a theme of that year, and then making the puzzle in different levels so that students can try easy, medium, hard without using those words. And then once we invite those elementary school students to come and visit, one of the schools would take that home and mount a math fair themselves for other students in the school to come. And we filmed that too.

We filmed this entire process of teaching it in the university class, bringing it to the elementary school students, let them bring it back to their school, mount the fair themselves, and then share their impression and the reward that they get out of sharing. And it was just such an amazing experience looking at, especially students who are afraid of math.

speaker-2 (27:54.488)
who felt that they were not good at math to completely engage in puzzle solving and then afterwards said, was that math? And indeed, it was math. It was spatial logic, plain logic in words, or not number arithmetic. Arithmetic is not really math, that's a skill. But thinking in all possible ways on how to solve a problem.

and we're so happy that we can turn some some understanding or prejudices against math that math is not about speed it's not about how fast and how accurate you could be but it's about thinking deeply and completely and enjoying the process

When you were grade nine, Lily, way back, right? You first come to Canada and obviously, I mean, you sound like the experience was good, which must be, I mean, to come to a new country where you barely know the language, anxiety is certainly part of it, I would think, but you found math is your savior, from what I hear. But did you ever envision that it would lead to Cap University and this getting involved in the SNAP program? You probably couldn't imagine that's where it would lead to. At the time, you just were good at it, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah, not at all. No, I just thought that I would become a research mathematician if I had luck.

That's the journey of life though, right? Because sometimes you can't see where it's going to lead to and you have to go with it. And you went with, guess, obviously something within you that you loved and you wanted to see.

speaker-2 (29:27.982)
Yeah, I love to share. But I think I should not paint a too rosy a picture about my immigrant experience, because I want to let people know that in the first year for a new immigrant who had no language, that first year was hell.

I'm glad you're getting back. yes. Because it sounded a little road. I can't imagine what it really like. Can I ask why?

yeah, absolutely. Because if you were treated in Taiwan as a top of class, class genius, and then thrown into an environment where language was taken out of you. And remember, history was my favorite subject. It was based on language. And I had no language and I could not appreciate anything. The teachers were trying to teach and on top of it, the classmates I had treated me as the dumb one.

the dumber in the class, they would turn around, they would say, couldn't even do this dictate simple words and so on. And that was really tough. I told my father after with I think after one year I said, I want to go back, I don't want to stay here. And I'm glad they they stuck to their content camp that's there, because it became a wonderful experience. But wow, the first year for a teenager was tough.

Yeah, you talk to any high school teacher. Grade nine is the worst anyway. For you to arrive at the age of that. my gosh. Even if you could speak English, it's still a horrible. Great. Grade eight, grade eight, Yes. They're tough. Even if you speak English.

speaker-2 (31:00.526)
Absolutely, I didn't know that.

speaker-2 (31:07.98)
I mean they're

The cynicism, it? The attitude, the cliquey.

Yes, so many things. What do you think should be at the heart of a strong elementary school mathematics program?

speaker-2 (31:31.352)
I remember thinking about that question and I felt that I want to go back a step before answering the heart of a math program. I want to share how we remember our math journey. And in my case, I don't remember what I learned from my favorite teachers, but I remember my teachers, my teachers as inspirations, the favorite teachers who gave me

these wonderful math lessons who opened my mind and ignited that little flame of love for math. I just remember them as inspiration. They share their love. They're extremely humble. They are clear communicators, but you could always feel the passion behind it. So before we talk about the heart of a math program, we should address

the people delivering it, that these teachers must be the teachers who love sharing, who love their students and love the subject. And if we have that, then we can now fine tune the heart of the math program. It should be inquiry based, and we should not worry about covering a curriculum, but instead turn everything into a story because we are storied people.

and share that math lesson in a story so that the students can build connection to the story and have their understanding built on something tangible. So that's how I would like to imagine our future math program to be. And to that end, actually in during the pandemic 2021-22 wrote a math textbook

for our contemporary math course that's meant for people with no math background at Cap University. And this math textbook has six chapters covering subjects like problem solving, consumer math, geometry, data science, statistics and probability, and enumeration systems. And in that book, every chapter is a story.

speaker-2 (33:58.686)
I teach math through story and the rigor of that math is on the sidebar. But the whole chapter, say chapter one was about three students who are new to CAPU and they're in orientation and trying to solve some problems and how they share their background and they're not detached from their family problems, things they're worried about or they're concerned about aluminum mining in India.

for students from India and all these things are connected and I just want to show students that math is not detached from everyday world.

Well, and I love that because I think that's one of the difficulties when math is taught, you say, okay, we're doing this, we're doing this, okay. Everything's compartmentalized, but the cross connections of subjects, so you have storytelling, whether it be mathematics from long ago in a story and how...

the mathematics from 2000 years ago is still relevant today, then that starts making connections, neural pathways to looking at things other than just numbers. And I think for me, one of the greatest things.

I mean, when you think of numeracy and how that's built in as you grow, I spend a lot of times with my grandparents, we played tremendous number of card games. By seven years old, I was playing euchre, cribbage, I was playing bridge, and my grandfather had this

speaker-1 (35:49.408)
interesting way of... You lost your allowance all the time. Yes, but it was just, it was my my grandfather and my grandmother and we would go to their cottage and my brother and I and we would play cards and then my grandfather loved puzzles so we were always playing puzzles and thinking so then that's that cross-pollination of words and mathematics but he had this amazing thing where he he had a lazy boy

lounge chair and he had some arthritis in his knees. But I swear he would be when he knew we were coming to the to cottage, he would take change from his change purse and drop it down the sides of his lazy boy lounger. And then my brother and I would run to the door and burst through the door and we'd go right to the lazy boy chair and he would get up.

Beautiful.

speaker-1 (36:47.694)
and we would run our hands underneath the cushions and we'd get all of this change and we'd put it out. And then he'd say, well, how much do you have? And then we would count the money and say, have, you know, we have $4. What do think you could buy with that?

And then there would always be a trip from the cottage into the small town in southwestern Ontario. And we would take our change and he would make sure and he would be with us. He was standing on his cane and we would pick what we wanted to buy. he would not let us just put the change on the counter. He counted out.

So all and so it didn't feel like math. No, but it was all this numeracy that was in my life just in a joyful recreational way. And I think that is a large portion of my love of mathematics. Because when I started seeing the problem solving, I had a skill set. I could run it through my mind. Right. I had the experience. And so what you're talking about is making those connections.

from life is so important.

Yeah, yeah. I love that story. I'm going to be a grandma first time next February. this February. So like in a month. Wow. And thank you for sharing all those tips from your grandpa. I'm going to use that. I'm a quick study.

speaker-1 (38:22.744)
I mean, I think you recognize too that it's about those connections because Roy and I have talked about the way we teach and we've seen teachers that they understand the curriculum like you wouldn't believe but they forget about the foundation of the class, about the connections with their students, making them feel comfortable doing those kind of activities. So they come in and they could deliver the most amazing lesson ever but they haven't built that first. And I think you do. And I wonder, thinking of the fact you spent nine years in the...

the Taiwanese education system and then the last three years in the public education system in Canada. Do think maybe you made the perfect blend of the two? They both have strengths, right? They do. And maybe that you were a positive example of bringing those together, right? Yeah.

What do you think? I agree with you. I agree with you on the strength. But I think the harm done by the Taiwanese education system also took many years to fix. But the Canadian freedom, freedom to choose what you love to study and freedom of time, that we were not so overburdened by study that I had to.

sleep with my light on and make sure I don't sleep more than four hours. I had to get up and do all these crazy practice. How was that caused this permanent damage in me that I could never sleep enough after I got out of Taiwan.

Yes. What do you see as the biggest impediment to an effective classroom mathematics program? Like the thing that stops people from really succeeding and delivering what you aspire to and teach your students at CAP.

speaker-2 (40:07.722)
I want to let everybody know that I did not get an education degree and I would not be able to confidently share my theoretical knowledge because I did not have any. But I could address what I saw that was wrong. When the students come to us at Cap University in a math class, my first job is to take away their fear.

that impediment was built from childhood where mathematics was a perfect subject in telling a kid what they did wrong because there is right and wrong. And so if they're unlucky and have parents or uncles or teachers who treated math as a subject to punish students for doing something wrong, then they come to us with great anxiety and fear. That's the first thing I want to take away.

I would like teachers to stop treating it as a right or wrong answer, but students do need to learn and sometimes they do get a wrong answer and I always, I never say that's a wrong answer. With my students or with my own children, small children, when they give me something that's not right, I always say instead of wrong, I say, that's check. That's check. You propose that this is the answer. Well, this is how we can check.

does that work out? if not, we actually learn something great from a mistake. I always ask my students to look at the mistake and see how you can adjust your answer to make it right. so that is great impediment. That's a fear. That's a psychological damage to the student. The second thing is about the right answer in the back of the book. I want to let my students know.

that there are tons of ways of solving a question. A math problem is very creative. You can address it in many different ways, come from many different directions and from many different approaches and methods. So show me your way. You can do try and error. You can test. You can set up a table. You can use manipulatives and you can bring your life experience into it. But

speaker-2 (42:25.002)
My students came to me thinking there is one right answer in the back of the book and if I don't get the answer in the back of the book then I am wrong and I said no you're not wrong if you can explain your logic to me and I understand it that's right and I encourage that so show me many different methods of solving a problem

you think there's a bit of a badge of honour in a place like Canada where people say, I'm just not good at math. You know, it's so acceptable. I would have parents come in and say, my son's bad at math and me too, right? they just... It's hereditary. So the wall is up and now they, their whole life, they're thinking, I'm just not good at it. just won't, you know, like you would never say that I just can't read, I'm not good at reading. You would never accept that for something else. But in math, I find it's just things to be an acceptable response.

Yeah, that's a great puzzle for mathematicians and the math departments in Canada all over are trying to figure out how to change this culture and SFU had this changing the culture with UBC collaboration with the UBC and PIMS this changing the culture annual conference to to talk about how we can change that attitude among the teachers the parents the students and I wonder if it's a

a settler mentality where people were protecting women. think it's even worse for women, girls. Girls can't do math. And we're our, fairer sex. Right. But, but I think, I don't think that's true anymore because I see, math majors in universities now having about 50 50 or sometimes even more.

FEMA students.

speaker-1 (44:12.012)
Female engineers really surpassed in numbers male engineers.

That's really amazing. So I think what we need to work on more is on the parents and the students young. That there is no math gene. It is true that talents in math and music are easy to spot when the kid's small. Unfortunately, that doesn't carry you very far. It's a lot of other factors, perseverance,

They say it there.

speaker-2 (44:46.612)
and motivation. all those things. So I think our job is to help the teachers know that like doctors do no harm, please don't do any harm to the students. want them to love math and to not ever let them think they're not good at math.

Teachers use a wide range of resources. Sometimes they're using textbooks, sometimes they're not. They're also using resources that they've purchased from, like teachers paid teachers. They've created their own materials. But from your perspective, what role should resources play in shaping instruction?

I feel here it depends on every teacher. Teaching is such a creative vocation. Every teacher comes with the teacher's personality, creativity, and characteristic. If you allow the teacher to choose, all that stuff is wonderful. And each teacher will be able to up with a good combination of those, knowing the students.

Like it's not just the teacher, but it's also each class of students require different types of teaching. So I believe I trust the teachers completely, but I also think that we need a longer mentorship. It is not enough to give them one or two years of education and training and just let them off on their own because teaching is an apprentice type of job.

you need to guide them and show them that there are so many different situations that you an inexperienced teacher can share and and so teachers like you retired teacher should mentor people and we should help guide our teachers so that they feel more supported and less alone in figuring out this teaching.

speaker-1 (46:45.326)
It's one of the few professions where on day one you're doing the same as you would 30 years later. Yes. You're just thrown in, off you go. One year or two years at university, here, start teaching mathematics. To me, a more gradual mentorship kind of thing that kind of to more of that would make a lot of sense.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

speaker-2 (47:06.894)
Yeah, yeah, and I also feel that my teaching changed too. over the 25. Yeah, we do.

If it didn't, there's something wrong.

And you spend your career just trying to get there, right? Trying to be the best. When you talk about resources, do you think sometimes we can depend on technology too much? And is that a worry of yours going forward with AI and other things? Like it may have its place, but what do you see as some of the danger lurking there?

Yes.

speaker-2 (47:35.064)
Yes. When I joined Capilano, CAP was the first university to openly use the graphing calculator. And my mentor, Ted Bentley, who was the coordinator of math department at that time, shared with me how they used it. They show the students how this graphing calculator can help us have visual understanding of how a graph changes. Just

from slight changes on the function. so he really changed my mind about technology. I want the best for our students. And I am not afraid of technology, but I would like the teachers to know how to use it for their benefit and their students' benefit and not to harm the student. So in my next book that I will embark on from September, I have another paid-at-leave.

where I want to write a textbook for math education, teaching teachers how to use technology, including AI, to help them teach better, and how to help them address extremely gifted students who should not stay with the rest of the class. They should keep exploring. Technology can help with that. Or students who are weaker, who need extra practice. Technology can also help with that. So I would like to give teachers all these options.

so that they can do their best in addressing all different levels, the diversity of a class, and still allowing students to find how to use technology to help them learn and what's not good for the students to have. So I think people needs to curate it and somebody needs to

That's the important part. don't do we suddenly jump on it. We're using it We haven't thought about how to use it effectively and it's okay when it's a tool But when it becomes the cognitive ability of your own brain that's been replaced by the technology. There's something well Right, that's where you you don't have to think now. Here's the answer. That is when we have to think and take a breath

speaker-2 (49:38.658)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (49:44.174)
That's right. So let me give you the example of calculators. We grew up in the time where calculators were not around, we learn mental math, like your grandfather made you do all these mental math to know the change. When calculators came into education, students in high school needed calculators to do some complex arithmetic, then all of a sudden,

elementary school teachers might feel well eventually they're going to use calculators anyway why do we bother teaching long division but if you are not educated enough in mathematics to see the whole journey of math education you wouldn't know that somewhere in grade eleven they're going to need this long division for polynomial division

And then you said, well, that's going to be taken over by computer algebra. So your graphing calculator would be powerful enough to do that. You don't need to learn that. But then you don't know that in university calculus, you're going to need this technique in order to do partial fractions in integrals, that second year, second semester calculus. So I think we should not take away this ability to, of numeracy from our students.

we need to let them know how to ask subtract multiply divide quickly because math math education now knows that if students do not have this automaticity yeah automaticity means you look at the numbers and you can see the sum or the difference product and quotient quickly if you don't have that ability you can progress to the next level yes and so we cannot ever say mental math is not important that's important

in its place but we're not going to drill the kids poor kids three-digit multiplication it's not necessary to do three-digit multiplication just for the sake of demonstrating that you know the theory of multiplication but you do need to know the basics

speaker-1 (51:50.35)
teaches kindergarten and she always talks about the importance I think it's called super ties where you just the kids can right away if you throw out five things they know it's five right yes sit and count

Yeah, yeah, that's hard. Yeah, yeah

And if you don't have that level of numeracy, the understanding that I can say, you I used to love playing this game with my students. would take, first I'd start with two dice. And I said, okay, we'd have a competition. I said, you against Mr. Hunt, who's six times older than you. One, two, three, go. I throw it down and I'd get the number before them. go, how did you do that? I said, because as soon as they go down, can visualize it. I can see the number.

like you know three and four or seven and and and and and and can see that and yes when you can get to that point and then you start seeing sums of numbers and you say then your estimation becomes better too so you can estimate because if you can't do that automated task of seeing you know finding the the the sum of numbers as an example

And then you're punching numbers into a computer. I believe that it used to be a computer or a calculator. I think one of the terms they used was garbage in, garbage out. Right? And so when you get the number that comes out, if you have no idea or a mathematical sense, then you say, oh yeah, that's gotta be it. And then you say, the calculator was wrong.

speaker-1 (53:25.29)
So, it's building in that numeracy, building it so then you can get a good estimate of what the number of these. Maybe you don't have to come up with this exact thing to seven decimal points, but you can say that based on the numbers, based on my knowledge, that seems to be a reasonable answer.

No.

speaker-2 (53:48.458)
Absolutely at least yes, and I asked my students for that too. This is building intuition I call it that before they put it in the calculator Just have a feel of what you're expecting out of the calculator. Yes. Yes, the calculator does not scam you

You never know. Scammed by a calculator. Yes. Well, how can teachers balance the development of procedural fluency with deep conceptual understanding? So we have this thing we want to get, we want to get the procedural, you know, step one, step two, step three, but we want to get that, that deep understanding so that it's not just a procedure that you actually

understand that this answer is right. But how do we get our students to see that? Because oftentimes, especially it's a superficial understanding of mathematics or this times this. Yes. But you know, it's like saying three times four. Yeah, you say, okay, it's well, I know that's 12. But if I show you an array, right, and you use the array, then then when you understand

Yes.

speaker-1 (54:58.37)
those two connections, I think you have a deeper understanding of how to get there. And then there's a transfer of knowledge that goes on to the next level.

Thanks.

speaker-2 (55:08.396)
Yes, I feel understanding is always more important than the practice, the strategy. And to me, there's one more step to understanding. We need to understand that students learn in different ways. And sometimes your way of explaining this may make sense for you, but the student may not get it. And I would like teachers to be equipped with

many different ways of explaining a deep understanding and that if a student couldn't get it in one way, you have in your pocket so many other ways to reach the student. So understanding is the first. Whenever possible, for example, sometimes things are just a little difficult for the students at that level. And we need to say, well, you need to wait until you're in high school before you can understand this. That's fair.

But once you have understanding, then if students who come in different levels, abilities, cannot get the proficiency of the strategy or the procedure in class, then we should not give up on those students. Those students should use more time at home to work up that proficiency. What I see at university for those students struggling in math,

is that they give up too early or somebody gave up on them when they are in elementary school. If they are slower and they did not get to the proficient level, then they didn't do anything about it at home either. And here is the here's a time where we can rethink our math, our education program in elementary school. My husband's Danish and where he came from, they they understood that there are some subjects who would require more time.

in the classroom table, timetable, and some other subjects who could take less time. And if we just give equal time to all the subjects, then some students are going to suffer. They suffer by working on the subjects on their own at home, or the parents had to hire tutors in order to help them catch up at school. So if we can rethink the timetable to allow subjects that require more time,

speaker-2 (57:35.234)
this time in school, then I believe that students are going to benefit and teachers and families too.

Now Roy and I both have participated in the Snapfares at Catalan University. We brought our classes there. And what advice would you give to any listeners that wanted to start that kind of Snapfare idea in their classroom? How they can go about having their students create these great projects that are problem-solving based.

So I was the lone crusader in the beginning, trying to talk to all the teachers who brought their classes in a special side room that they could do it too in their class. And many teachers worry. They say, well, we've got this curriculum we have to cover. How could we possibly find time to do this big project? It's a big project. And we try to make them see that, it's not extra time. It's actually all part of the curriculum. Tell me what you want to teach.

Are you trying to teach recycling or do you want to teach history or civil or civics like election or what do you want to teach that's combined those things or science so we could combine different topics in one snap math fair. Let me give you an example if this year's theme was literature then some of my students might be doing a harry potter theme in their puzzle and or.

alice in wonderland or ananya and all these books that students might have read could come into their math snap math fair they invent wonderful puzzles for their student their friends to play and they think about how to design puzzles because they only get a puzzle and the puzzle comes in one puzzle not different levels you can see deep understanding if a student can take a puzzle

speaker-2 (59:27.488)
and design something easier and something harder in that scene then that's not just problem solving it's also creative critical thinking

I'm having a bit of deja vu here because I think I was one of those teachers who you talk to. Now it's all coming back to me. I did and I think I followed through.

So we met a long time ago. wonderful. we love to hear those success stories that you actually do.

We put on a whole fair for the school.

So thank you. You are the ambassador.

speaker-1 (01:00:04.942)
We had a math night at Ridgeway Elementary School. It invited the entire community and our students in grade seven were the facilitators of it and they had little packages. It was very, it was a staff initiative so it was very labor intensive but we had playing cards and we had dice and we just...

worked on all of a variety of puzzles and games that included parents and the students at the school. And it was a tremendous night of inspiration and a tremendous night for parents to see coming to the classroom and to see the kinds of things that...

that are connected to mathematics because a lot of them, all they see is the homework that their kids bring home and they...

they look at the challenges that, don't remember this, math has changed. no, no. The numbers are still the same. plus one is three. So math hasn't changed. The approach to math is different. And so anyways, it's those opportunities because I think there's a disconnect where the students are struggling and they need some extra.

Thanks.

speaker-1 (01:01:40.462)
some extra work, because I think you're right. There are certain subjects that do require more time, especially for people who process differently or need a little more time. as a result of that, when they go home, their parents will, I don't know.

And then what's the first thing to look for? Look for the answer key in the book. Now, and I always think, because they said, well, I have to find the answer. Well, if you do find the answer, but you can work backwards, that's problem solving. Yes. Right. So then you can see it because sometimes, you know, people, know, bakers deconstruct bread or pastries and they taste it. So, there's some vanilla in there and there's, you know, I can taste that spice in there. And so when you can deconstruct the new art.

you're actually your problem solving. But I think it made it a fun night. The parents and the children actually had fun doing math probably for the first time in a long time.

Yeah.

speaker-2 (01:02:45.932)
Yeah, yeah, that's so sad when it should be a lot of fun for everybody. Yeah. And that I think that's a culture we want to change. Yeah, to make it fun.

So I guess the next question is, how can we help teachers to be more confident and make more informed decisions about their math programs?

If we could make our students love learning and keep their childlike curiosity, then we have done a great job. And those for our teachers too. So when I think of our teachers...

I think knowledge is in addition to love. So we are just assuming that everybody comes with this passion for teaching. Then you cannot have passion on nothing. So we need to prepare our teachers sufficiently so that they can have confidence in their ability to...

to handle any kind of math question the students may have. And some of students are very curious.

speaker-2 (01:04:05.736)
When I was working with this, the people from University of Alberta and other colleges in Alberta, I was really surprised by that Alberta teachers, future prospect teachers had to have at least two math courses before they become elementary school teachers. And in BC, we had only one and we could not change that it was very, very difficult in the ministry to just add

one more course to help our teachers feel more confident. Now suppose math is not for everybody and we can't force everybody to have two math courses, but then the US solution in around year 2000 was that, okay, that's fine. Then from grade four on, please give us specialty teachers. Please give us teachers who have a math degree. So they love math and they also love teaching.

could they please come to the classroom and share that with our students? Then our students would not grow up being afraid of math and thinking that they are no good at math. They are going to learn from the teacher that math is fun and I can do math and math is not a race. Even if I am a slower thinker, I might be a careful thinker and that's a wonderful thing. So don't worry about speed, please remember.

to think of math as a place where we can jump off. It's a jumping board onto many different topics. And if you don't apply it, it's a simple joy just to learn. Yes.

Now, how do we focus that learning on today's class of 2026, which we try to reach all learners, know, diversity is the key. So how do you bring this program in that includes everyone at their level or whatever, you know, issue they're dealing with or whatever the background they're coming with, wherever they come from, how do we address that?

speaker-2 (01:06:09.87)
I would like to bring us back to the story, the story that everybody brings in to the classroom, not just the teacher's story, but the student's story. So if you know your students well and you know their story, then the diversity is a strength. And we look at those kind of stories and build our math lesson around it. So I believe that even with diversity and different levels of ability,

We can address math for everyone. Technology is our friend. So use technology wisely in addition to all the story building, connection building, and then we can add in joy of math.

I goes back to what you said earlier about the foundation of the class and dealing with the connections with everyone, right? Yes. Making sure, understanding that first before you worry about delivering a program, right? Then the story can be played. And what message would you like to share with teachers about the long-term impact of a strong elementary school math program?

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-2 (01:07:20.61)
Wow, I am at the receiving end of most of the time what things don't work. So I have a lot I want to say about that. we should help our teachers know what they know and what they don't know and what good math teaching could look like.

Math is so deep. I want to give you an example of multiplication. A grade three child who just started multiplication and the example that Roy supplied how three times four can be seen as an array in a box. Then you connected that three times four multiplication already to the area of a rectangle.

And then from there, when our teachers are well equipped and have a deep understanding of math, the next question is, how many? How many different rectangles can you design that have the same area of 12? And if you only stick to integer, this is that many. But some kids might start drawing you something smaller and it has half.

for one side and now all of sudden you have an infinite number of rectangles that has this area 12 and then how about let's look at the perimeter what happened to the perimeter when the area stays the same but some of them get longer and longer and perimeter gets very big and now you get into calculus the limit can be infinite infinite perimeter with the same area and then you think about let's get the perimeter involved

What shape will give you the shortest perimeter? If you only have a piece of rope, then which shape would you like to form that gives you the biggest area? And now you're into calculus maximization and so on. But all that is not possible if the teacher doesn't come with this knowledge of math. And that's why I say in the heart of a good math program, we want a teacher with a wonderful math understanding, math education.

speaker-2 (01:09:39.416)
then this teacher can share this flexibility, adaptability. A student is going in that direction, I follow it. I let them explore. And you have all these extra questions that you can supply to make the student stay interested. But a student is struggling on this area, I can give you tons of the same thing, different numbers, different pictures, but building on that area. So we need creativity and adaptability.

flexibility in our teachers for to implement a strong math program.

Before we wrap up, just one final question. I always think that to be successful it has to be baby steps. We can't have people change things overnight to achieve the classrooms you want, which are just that's the direction to go. So if teachers reflected on one aspect of their teaching program in math, what would you like them to think about? If they could just tomorrow they're in the classroom, what should they think about to go forward and improve and address the learners in the ways you talk about?

I would like to take the fear of math away. think that's the first thing. If we can remove the word W-R-O-N-G from our math teaching, there is no more wrong. It is an incorrect answer. Don't say that either. But from now on, phrase a question instead to make our students think, have you tried this answer? That's tested. That's checked if the answer is right.

So if we can take that fear away, I think we have done a great thing. That's our baby step.

speaker-1 (01:11:16.704)
Wow, Dr. Yen, it has been an absolute pleasure having this discussion with you and I love how you shared your personal background and then brought us right up to this point in time where we're even for us as retired teachers, I learned something today. And I think that's.

really a lot of what a lot of it is and that's being a lifelong learner and you seem to be in that category as a lifelong learner. So thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you very much for making the time to listen to me. I have enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you.

speaker-1 (01:12:04.846)
Another great guest on After the Bell, Dr. Lily Yen. It was really, really enjoyable. It was great. It reminds me that we should make sure that we tell our listeners about Snap Math. Those people who are listening from the North Shore, Capitol University offers that Snap Math program. It is amazing. Make sure that...

teachers take advantage of that? and we're going to list even our textbook. going to make a Yes, she offered us a Yeah, so that will be found on our stuntbrothers.ca website. We're going to curate a bunch of links on, we're going to start a new page on stuntbrothers.ca. Friday freebies. Oh. Friday freebies. Okay. So we're going to start with curating some of the stuff because we know sometimes you go out there looking for math resources and it's overwhelming on the internet.

So we're going to start listing some ones that we've used or things or games that we've had that you go to stuntbrothers.ca and you know they've been stunt brothers approved, right? Sounds like work. If you don't like it, don't blame us. But the great resource will be Dr. Yalili Yen's actual textbook. And within her textbook, she has so many other links as well. So it's a valuable resource. It's amazing. She produced this book as an ebook and she's given us

basically an electronic copy of it that we can share with everybody. And we will have it up on the website. And we really encourage all listeners who are in the classroom teaching to share it among your staff because I think many people will find this a useful resource. It was so useful talking to Dr. Lily Yen and my cold has made it this far. Luckily when we actually had the interview, I was healthy as anything. Yes. It's now that I'm adding this afterwards that it's coming on.

I think that's where we kind of wrap it up. we will wrap it up now. I say to listeners, stay healthy, stay fit, look after yourself, and we'll talk to you again on After the Bell. This podcast is organic, taking shape with each episode. Building resiliency for teachers everywhere. That sounds great. And our website is stuntbrothers.ca. That's stuntbrothers.ca. We will chat again. After the Bell.

speaker-2 (01:14:17.358)
you