After the Bell: Teaching Tips With a Twist

The Attendance Crisis We Can't Ignore

• The Stunt Brothers • Season 2 • Episode 36

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In Episode 66, the Stunt Brothers take a closer look at how student absenteeism is impacting learning, engagement, and classroom culture in schools across Canada. Roy and Martin dive into Ontario’s controversial policy of linking grades to attendance and explore the growing debate surrounding student accountability and the role schools should play in addressing chronic absenteeism. Listeners will hear about the real challenges teachers face when students regularly miss class and how absenteeism affects classroom dynamics, relationships, and academic success. The duo also examines the impact of mental health concerns, rising student needs, increased screen time, and shifting parent and student attitudes about the importance of school in shaping today’s attendance patterns. Drawing on comments and stories shared on Cross Country Checkup, Roy and Martin bring a wide range of perspectives into the conversation while encouraging listeners to weigh in with their own experiences, opinions, and insights on this important and timely issue. Join the Stunt Brothers as they unpack one of the biggest challenges facing education today and explore what can be done to reconnect students with school.

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Speaker 3

Good afternoon, podcast listeners everywhere. Welcome to After the Bell, a Stunt Brothers production.

STS With The Stunt Brothers

Speaker 1

I'm Martin Stuible. And I'm Roy Hunt, and we share your pain, having taught a combined 70 years. 70 years. I know. Wow. So get out your marking, organize your supplies, or just pour yourself a coffee. I think I need something stronger. That's okay. Okay. And listen, engage, and interact with After the Bell, a podcast for you, the hardworking, dedicated teacher who wants free lesson plans, free advice, and a free meal. Well, I always show up for a free meal.

Speaker 3

There we go. I like those apples.

Speaker 1

You like those apples? Well, you know, it's not the season for apples, but I do am looking forward to uh delicious apples from the Okanagan. Yeah, and my apples, my apple cider.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

Oh, your apple cider?

Speaker 3

Though I partially pruned the tree, so there'll be less apples. So I did I did I did eye a tree down the down the lane that had so many apples on last year, and I don't think they pick any of them. Okay. So if I'm lacking apples for my apple cider business, I may I may knock on that door.

Speaker 1

Aaron Ross Powell Are you gonna go you're gonna knock on the door? Yeah, I think they're not gonna see it. Who's that guy in our tree down the apples?

Speaker

We see bears, we see crows. Yeah. Go into bear suit.

Speaker 1

Just climb the tree in a bear suit and gingerly take them off the branches and put them in a basket and like Now I like that bear.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's how that's a one way to get from TikTok listeners. Welcome, sir. This is episode 66. What?

Speaker 1

66? Yeah, yeah. Wow. That is correct. And uh correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will. Trevor Burrus, Jr. You're wrong. But we just did uh in our first season, we did thirty episodes. Yeah, we did. We're we're so we're like far past. Exceeding expectations.

Speaker 3

We are going beyond. Wow. We are. That's nice. And we're back in the box. We had a short little episode last week. Yes. But we did not miss the episode. Our attendance was perfect. Perfect attendance. And uh we're back here in the box in this beautiful day. Beautiful. We're actually here on a Sunday. You know, we we miss we missed part of our part of our classes. So we had, you know, teacher kept us in, right? This is an old-fashioned school. This isn't like now. So we were kept in, right? We we were tardy, so we had to do some extra duty on a weekend.

Speaker 1

Yes. Okay. Well, but we're not really kept in because we're willing to do that extra work. So we're motivated. We're connected.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Right? Our attendance is connected to that piece where you and I feel that we enjoy working together.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And we enjoy sharing these moments with our listeners. I see.

Speaker 3

And because of that, that's like my attendance in the garden. It's it's just because I enjoy it. I'm motivated. I don't need someone to dock me marks, right? I don't get a 10, 15 percent deduction in my mark. I just I'm up there at with the sun, 5.30 in the morning this time of year, out in the garden, six o'clock. That's committed. I am committed. Some people think I should be committed.

Speaker 1

Well, I was gonna say, and when you're running around with plants in your hand, I can plant one more before the sun goes down.

Intro Discussion On Attendance Issues

Speaker 3

That's right. That's right. Always one more thing. I can say one more. Yeah. But we're committed to this podcast, and we're continuing our discussion on attendance. On attendance. Right. You didn't figure that out already. You're kind of hinting at attendance. And we kind of gave a little preview last week, and this is an ongoing thing that we should talk about attendance. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

It it is uh has become a hot button issue. Uh I'm amazed uh when I started doing uh a little bit of research, the number of articles here in Canada, the number of comments from parents uh uh um because of what's happening in Ontario, it's it's exploded. Every um article that I ran into uh on uh you know on social media there are anywhere from 500 to 1,000 comments on each one. And wow.

Speaker 3

From what I could see, it's clearly a big Canadian issue, it's America a big issue, Australia, U.K., less so some other parts of the world. I mean, there are certain places that have attendance issues, but that's not because of what we worry about in terms of not going to school because there's maybe mental health issues going on, it's because in certain parts of the school, you can't go to school because there's a war going on, those kind of things, right? So when you look at the statistics, you have to go, okay, that's a huge issue too, where you know some schools where girls won't go once a month, right? Because they're not getting the sanitary products they they need, right? So that is an issue there. So there's that would be another certain uh issue and topic to talk about, those people that want to go to school but are prevented because of certain things going on in their part of the world. But this is more this trend that was there a little bit before COVID, but seems to have gotten worse. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

Well, and the and the big thing about attendance, and you know, if you talk you can talk to a group of 20 parents or a hundred parents, and you'll get a different view from everybody. That's the interesting thing. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yes. But it I if you were to talk to teachers, especially in elementary, they would say, why is attendance so important? And uh it first of all, it's the learning loss, right? It's the the curriculum is what you know we're uh directed to teach for the year. And so you're trying to catch students up to the the point where they're supposed to be. Right. And then you're supposed to help to move them ahead, go to the next level. And and so that's directly affected when students don't attend school.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

That's the first thing. The second thing is, and uh I believe, and I know you and I are r have always felt that the classroom culture is really, really important. And we put a lot of time and energy into you know getting uh building a culture. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 3

It's almost more important than everything else nowadays with what kids are not getting in their life and other parts of their day. The school is that connection.

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So but how do you build a classroom culture when you have chronic absenteeism?

unknown

Right?

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 3

You're almost become a stranger to that group, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yes.

Speaker 1

And in fact, when you do come back, and that's feeling like a stranger, then you're not connected. And if anything, I think students would even become more withdrawn.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It snowballs, right? It really does. The f the longer you're away, the harder it is to get back in the game, so to speak. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

And and another issue of you know kind of the three that I'm pointing at is absenteeism has become normalized. I don't remember very often in the beginning of my career, uh a family saying, Oh, we're going away for two weeks. And uh just to let you know. And and maybe they let you know.

Speaker 3

And now I have had sometimes they're just gone to Hawaii. Yes. Where are they?

Speaker 1

And do you ask the students, where where's John? Oh, John's in Hawaii. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then you get two things with that. You get one parent who say, well, well, it's a family vacation. We don't want any homework at all. Right. Okay.

unknown

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Or or we don't want any homework, or what can my child do? And I would always say, you know, create a travel journal. Right? Take some photos. Read every day. And then in the end, and read it. And then in the end, show me the travel journal. I'll put a you know a uh post-it note on it, uh uh a look at it for content, whatever. But all of a sudden you have this amazing uh narrative of your trip. And a memory of that, a memory of it, right? Created by that student. Yeah. And on the other hand, I hear uh a parent says, well, my child's gonna be away from two weeks. I would like two weeks of homework.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah. No. And luckily we always had a policy at our school district. No, not gonna happen.

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr. And because often I would uh and I I got duped into that, oh, I'm gonna be a really good teacher, I'm gonna make sure that student gets the work. And so I'd put my extra time and energy into photocopying and and doing all of those things, and the work wouldn't come back.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And if it did come back, it was half complete. And then how covered in sand and sundan lotion. Sundan lotion and and probably some Hollandaise sauce from breakfast.

Speaker 3

And the parents had spilled wine on it, too. Yeah. Yes. Mom was helping me.

Speaker 1

Mom was helping me when you're drinking her bottle of wine.

Cultural and Social Factors

Speaker 3

Right. All the answers are wrong. But as you say, like that was unknown. You know, it there would be that rare family that were you know, they were traveling for a year around the world and they were doing something that was so incredibly educational at the same time. I mean, I I took my kids out for three months. We went across went across Canada. I remember that? And it happened. And I think those are different things. These are just those two-week tropical summer vacations or whatever, right, where kids uh go, not you know, I understand it's busy at Christmas, spring break, so it's cheaper to fly other times of the year. And it it's become the norm now for parents to go, well, I'm gonna go now this time of year, right? When I can afford it. And does it really matter? Does it really matter if my child doesn't go to school?

Speaker 1

And it does.

Speaker 3

Yes. But we've lost that, right?

Speaker 1

And and and and I think that that becomes the next thing with parents is like, well, my son or my daughter, my child is getting high marks and everything. So they don't have to attend. No. And they'll just show up and uh write the test, and then um they'll pass, and that's fine. Uh and I'm I'm gonna would you like a doctor to work on you who says, well, I never did any of the practical stuff, but I passed all the tests. I know it's an extreme example. No, but it's true. But it's part of, especially in elementary school and in high school, it's creating an environment. They have, you know, they have teams, uh, they have activities in in in schools, and so it's about creating a social environment. Yeah. And when you look at social environments that are are still um out there for families to connect with and and and and go to, if you're not attending your church or you if you're a r a refill a religious affiliation.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, those were often those community halls that you would go to for those reasons to connect, right? Yes.

Speaker 1

And then if you're not playing organized sports and then really what do you have?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Right? And so it's it's that social fabric that if if we if this continues to go in this direction where parents say, well, they don't have to go because um my my son's not going today because he's he's resting up for a game tomorrow. Or resting up because he had a tough game last night.

Speaker 3

Or we just we just got back from Hawaii and we're gonna it's gonna be another week to recuperate. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

We had a hockey practice at 5.30 in in the morning, and he's quite tired, so I'm gonna bring him in later on. And it's because it's not just absenteeism. It's like you know, tardiness or lateness.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr. That is, you know, some oh, I'll get there when I get there. Yeah. Right. And there's some chronic late students as well. That's another big part of this story.

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, the the interesting thing is back in 2017 and 20 to 2018, the the percentage of students attending uh uh regularly in Ontario was 60 percent. Trevor Burrus Yeah.

Speaker 3

And that's what shocks me. Like you when you first we were looking at the numbers together and you mentioned what they've become. Yes. I it blew my mind that it's now flipped the other way around. That was bad enough. It wasn't like it was good then. Aaron Powell Yes. Right? Sixty percent were attending, which not not such a good thing, really. Sixty percent? Would you want that in any kind of job evaluation? Right? Yes. Sixty percent is not good. What did we find with Ontario now in high school? What percent?

Speaker 1

So now in in in uh regularly in high school, it's forty percent. Are attending. And for students in grade 11 and 12, that's actually lower. And uh it's 33 percent are attending. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 3

And just to give the definition, this is chronic absenteeism, which correct me if I'm wrong, Roy, but I believe it's when you it's less than 90 percent. 90 percent of the time you are in school, but uh it is at least 10 percent you're not. So it's for reasons other than illness, I think, right?

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So you're missing more than 10 percent of the school year. And I think I brought uh I mentioned before I think your average school year, I don't know uh uh Ontario and uh BC that there are a few days different, but it's about 180, what, five ish? Yeah, yeah. Something like that.

Speaker 3

Definitely, definitely. And I remember talking to uh a group of math teachers here in North Van, just talking about the challenge in high school when they teach math, and every day four or five or six students are away, and then you have to somehow make up that material for them. And these are kids that are heading towards university perhaps. You're trying to get a mark that will help them get ready for that next stage of their life. We're not talking earlier on in their academic career. They throw their hands up sometimes because it's frustrating, right? They're f it's very frustrating. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

And uh a few of the things that uh that I read about uh for comments from parents one was uh that uh well school is boring for my child, and so it's up to the teachers to make it more interesting. And then I've also heard, well, and what I said before is, well, my child is doing well in school and doesn't have to attend. Well, I'd I'd like to know what are those students doing when they're not attending school.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Because if you're allowing someone to say I know what they're doing, I don't feel like going to school today, and you say, oh, okay, you take a mental health day, are their parents at home? Are they on their own?

Speaker 3

Aaron Ross Powell, they're probably on their own on their device. Right? That's that's what's the place that they go to that they're happy, they think, in their brain, because that's what they feel withdrawn from when they go to school, where they no longer can use their device as much. And I think that's also making them go, I'd rather be at home with my device. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well, I'd rather I'd rather be at home too. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Right. But um but you know, my day my day what was if I if I stayed home, right? Yeah. I had a black and white TV until grade seven with three channels. So yeah, I could channels serve happy days versus six million dollar man back and forth, right? But I didn't have this whole world on my device to look at that would make me go, I'd rather be here. Why should I be bored by Mr. Smith trying to teach me algebra when my brain doesn't want to do that right now?

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus Well, and I could tell you a as a child, same same thing. Um when I look at the uh I mean I could have stayed home to read, but depending on my age, I would have probably stayed home with my grandma-grandpa. Because you know, you you you there's a certain age where you can't stay home on your own. So with grandma-grandpa, it would be good because uh we'd play cards or we'd do things. But I would rather be at school. And why? Why? And and it was because of the connections that I had with students. Exactly. It was I enjoyed what was happening there because it was far better and more interesting than uh what was available at home. Now, and I I'm not dismissing anxiety because uh I I have worked with students who who uh were anxious about coming to school. And but the thing is I knew it.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Uh the parents explained it, and uh every time that student came to school, I made sure it was a welcoming environment in the classroom. Uh I didn't put pressure on the code.

Speaker 3

You did everything you could to make them feel connected and part of that culture of your class, right?

Speaker 1

And you know, uh if something came up, I said, what you uh uh where we were doing something that that student had missed. I said, I I knew there was a friend in the classroom or someone they could work with. I said, why don't you just sit beside them and look at their work so you can cat catch up. And if you ha have any questions, I can help you out. Um send them on an errand to meet some other people in the school. Um look at look them in the eye and say, I'm so happy you're here today. Um those are the things that that that educators can do. Um but there's only so much. Yeah.

Speaker 3

And there's certainly been a post-cell phone development uh increase in anxiety about going to school. Yes. Right. And I just saw it as a statistic that I think up to around 2010, most kids would play or hang out with their friends for twenty to twenty-five hours in a week. Right? That's including, you know, recess lunch, after school weekends. Now it's about five hours. Right? So they're they're they're not going to school to hang out with their friends as much, right? For whatever you know, maybe they they they they're socially awkward now, they don't know how to deal with people because they are on their devices. So this is why this is such a complicated problem, right? It's not like you can just say, okay, let's be Ontario and we're going to suddenly bring in a marker or two. Right. It's a big experiment, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. But a lot of people are criticizing it because they're saying, well, then you're not dealing with some of those social anxiety issues that we've talked about and seen in our teaching.

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And I see, especially with with our research, what we have seen is that Ontario has the lowest numbers of students uh not attending school. But why is that? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 3

But why is that exactly are we going to the root cause with this? Right. You know, maybe it will help some of those kids who just don't go, right? And this will be the incentive they need. But what about those others? Right? Why are they not going as well?

The Responsibility That Falls on Government and Parents

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And it it's the layers you mentioned, right? I think if if they really if the the Ontario uh uh government wanted to show through the the Ministry of Education that they really mean business, as in supporting students business, then they said, uh okay, so we're going to do percentage, right? It's fifteen percent for grades uh I believe it's nine to uh ten and then eleven to twelve is fifteen percent.

Speaker 2

Right.

Speaker 1

Uh that would be uh considered for attendance in high school. Um why couldn't they have followed it up with uh with a full-time counselor in every school? Yeah. Right? To say we're gonna address this social anxiety.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Because this is a lot cheaper. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: You can make a big deal about this and sound like you care about attendance without actually putting money into the school counselor or reducing class size. Those are things that governments go, uh, I don't know. I can't afford that. But I want to look like I care, right? Right. So sometimes I'm a little suspicious when I hear these kind of announcements.

Speaker 1

Aaron Powell And then we have you know food insecurity. We have um uh students who are uh in environments where they may be unhoused. Um how how do you how do you you address that? Yeah. And i i is the uh uh Ministry of Education in Ontario dealing how do they have statistics? Yeah. I mean, I I we hear a lot of this. What are the statistics? How can you and I can't believe I'm talking about data. Where is the data? Where is the But it you know, how do you help these students? Because and then you have um families who have uh you know, both parents are working, and then if they have a a younger child who can't stay at home, then the older child in high school is going to have to take some time off to be with their sibling while mom and dad go to work because we don't, you know, mom and dad don't want to lose their job and they need that money to move forward. So it's just the all of these layers. I know.

Speaker 3

I know. But some would argue, well, we have layers, but let's simplify it by having this kind of policy, right? I think that's maybe why when I looked at the statistics, other places like in Germany, other European countries don't seem to have the same level of absenteeism, and maybe because they're just they don't accept that. Parents don't take their kids on holidays in the middle of the year, right? Right. Um they expect you go to school, where we've developed a new culture and a new belief that, you know what, school's kind of optional, right? And maybe this is testing that. So not a bad thing. But but I like the way it's being talked about. And I you know, you and I have talked about that car that makes that sound. Right. And it's we've heard that sound. What there's something going on in education. You know? Is it attention? Maybe this all goes back to attention. Yeah. Where kids don't have the attention and we need to think about how do we teach attention. How do we teach that? Right? Because if you don't have the attention span, then going to school is hard. And when you can be at home on your device alone, well, what are you going to choose when you're a kid?

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So how how do you work and and it has to happen, it can't happen in high high school as much. We have to st start at the grassroots and in an elementary school in the beginning. How do we re-engage students? Yeah. How do we get them connected, get them to feel valued, get them to see the importance of the social fabric of of the classroom environment, of the school environment? How do we do that? Because That is a large piece where those students who have anxiety, um, you when you when you read about anxiety, oftentimes that anxiety uh becomes something that you carry for a long time. It's not gonna go uh away, sadly. Um we'd like to be able to say, okay, I'll I'll do this and do this for you, and then your anxiety will disappear. It's not that easy. And it could be a long journey for many people. And so how do we support those students? And I think the whole idea is cr trying to create that social environment that makes them feel welcomed, that makes them feel valued, and they see that they have a a role to play in this. And and and you know, they get feedback and they feel start to feel good about what they're doing. But that's a tall order. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

Speaker 3

Maybe it's a call to action to go teach that analog virus, right? Create that analog classroom that we've talked about, right? Get kids outdoors, get their brains calm again. Yeah. You know, and we're actually in uh June, we're having a guest on. He's a Colorado teacher, and The Atlantic wrote a great article, and I contacted him, and he's going to be in our podcast where he is a math teacher and he's got rid of all devices in his class, and kids are doing better, right? They're they're calmer, their achievement level has gone up. So all these things that we kind of have touched on, you know, one of our first episodes last season was about building class culture, connecting with kids, creating that environment first. You know, yes, curriculum is important, but don't start with that in September. Build that culture in your classroom where kids want to come in that door, right? I think we need to start with that. It doesn't mean you have to put on a show, right? But they have to feel, right? Yes. They have to feel that it's a place where they are listened to, cared for, and they want to be with these other students. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And what we often don't think about, we should think about is when we say let's compare Ontario to BC, even within Ontario and BC, the different regions have different opposite, right?

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus That uh the statistics we have, the percentages in Ontario are represent, you know, around the greater um Toronto area. But if you you go outside uh and Ontario is a big province, uh if you go into more remote regions, uh the percentages are even lower than 40 percent. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 3

They are. And I was just up in Fort St. James and um uh talking to the former director of inclusive education there and some of the issues they deal with at their high school. You know, we have challenges down here, but wow, right? Some of the trauma those kids are dealing with in their lives. Well, no wonder they don't go to school. Yeah. Right. Like how how can you expect them? How could you in any way give them a mark for attendance? Yeah. You're just so happy when they show up. That's right. You're so grateful.

Speaker 1

And I and I think ultimately that's it. It's almost like when someone comes through the door that you haven't seen for a while, or when every student comes through the door, it's like a celebration of, oh my gosh, I'm so happy you're here today. And let's let's do this together. And so every day you walk in, you feel valued and you feel welcomed. And I know that's that's that's hard to do.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr. But are those kids that are being absent, are they being welcomed when they do show up? Or are they made to feel like they've missed so much work and they get overwhelmed, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

You've been gone for a long time. It's gonna be tough to catch you up. No, that's not the way you you say, wow, I'm so happy to see you, right? And then find opportunities to help to re-engage them in that social fabric that you've created in the classroom. Yeah. Um I know uh high school is different. I've never taught high school. So um, but you can still do that.

Speaker 3

We're gonna have a high school teacher from California who's written a best-selling book soon on, and I think he talks about that engagement, right? David Burgess, right? The hook, right? Teach like a pirate, right, is what his his thing is. And so those are the things that maybe we shouldn't just always point the finger and say government, oh how come on, you're not fighting this. It's it's okay to look inward and some say, okay, can teachers do better with this as well? Right. Right. So I I think that's part of the conversation. So we're talking about attendance, which is clearly where we're going. And uh if you're listening, I got a bit of homework for you in a minute. But first I want to say congratulations, you're listening to this episode. Full marks for you. Aaron Powell, nice. Do I get full marks? Yeah, you always do. Your attendance is perfect. All right. Yeah. I'm just one of our listeners that have been attending every episode. Full marks for you. Though sometimes I know listeners pause halfway through. So they press pause and I don't know. They didn't they don't finish the episode. Should we dock them 10 percent?

Speaker 1

Aaron Ross Powell So they they get improved they they get perfect attendance, but if they leave somewhere in between that they don't follow through, then they get docked a percent.

Speaker 3

Aaron Ross Powell, I think so.

Speaker 1

Aaron Ross Powell How are you gonna figure that out? I don't know.

Speaker 3

I don't know. Is that too soon to say that one? I don't know. But I am gonna ask listeners to do us a favor. And I listen to every podcast. People say this on and on, ad nauseum, and we have mentioned it a couple times, but we don't actually say it enough. And that's wherever you're listening to this, you know, it could be Apple, Spotify, iHeart, there's a rating. Please rate us. Yes. Right? Because it really helps spread the podcast. So if you're listening and you have not rated us, please give us a rating. Do that. I will give you permission to pause. I won't deduct you 10 percent. Okay. And go give us a rating. Give after the bell a rating from your if we're throwing around percentages.

Speaker 1

If you give us a rating, I will give you 20 percent above.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 1

So you're not gonna be able to do that. So there's your incentive. So 120 percent. So if you listeners, yeah, you will get a bonus.

Speaker 3

You will get a bonus.

Speaker 1

A bonus for rating it. Trevor Burrus, So then then if you keep it up, that would mean there would be one episode you didn't have to listen to. However, if you did that, you would be like it would be above perfect attendance.

Speaker 3

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Okay. There you go.

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: This would be A plus plus.

Speaker 3

And this episode is a little different because usually we have when we ha don't have a guest on, we tend to put it into segments, you know, homework board. We threw in some homework there, we have the nugget. We're kind of doing this live. We're just doing this whole episode straight through, you and I just chatting, because we're doing this on the Sunday, and we I've never had this little amount of time to get the episode out for the Monday, right?

Speaker

He's not allowing me to go to the bathroom. I have to finish this before I go.

Speaker 3

You got it. We're getting this out. Because we were inspired. We heard we like I said, Matt Galloway on The Current talked about this and Ian Hanuman Singh. Ian Hanuman Singh. No, how do you say his name? Hanuman Singh? Ian Hanuman Singh. Handsome man singh. He is a handsome man.

Speaker 1

He is a handsome man.

Speaker 3

I I had dinner next to him once on Denman. Were we there together? I always say this. I always forget you were there. Years ago, right? We were there together. On Denman at a I think it was a Mexican restaurant.

Speaker 1

It was. Yeah, yeah. It was. We were there. And I said, I I even said to you, that's Ian Hannah Mansing. Yeah. And you look, we looked over and go like, he's handsome. He is a handsome man.

Potential Solutions and Strategies

Speaker 3

I just uh I'm glad I didn't say his last name to him. I'll just call him Ian. But if you're a Canadian listener, you know Cross Country Checkup, and it's a really great call-in program on Sundays, and he's the host of it. And they always talk about the hot button issues. And this is one they had. And so you know, we we we listened to it quite a bit and we uh we really picked up a bit of the feel of what people were talking about. Like there was that one caller who called in and said, I actually support this. My son skips class way more than he should. If attendance affected his grade, he'd take it more seriously. So that's certainly a view out there and from parents too. You know, in my day, it would have affected his mark. Yeah. Like do you do you agree with that? Do you think that's an okay way to do it?

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I find it interesting that they want the school to uh encourage him to attend. Yeah. And as a parent, you can't say. Yeah. Right? Um I don't know. But again, it it almost becomes what what I um uh I believe is kind of a deferment of responsibility is as instead of me as your parent saying, you know, we value school, we value education, I think it's important your your your your parents. Yeah. As your parents, we think this is an important thing to do and we would like you to attend.

Speaker

Right.

Speaker 1

And you know, maybe we incentivize it.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 1

But no. What we're what they are doing as parents is saying, oh, yes, it's up to the school board to make sure that they they incentivize my child through marks.

Speaker 3

So I have a problem with that. And there's and we've you know, dear listener, after you give us a rating, and you may not have listened to all of our episodes, go back and you'll find an episode that we did on how schools now have become the place where we solve all society's problems, right? We look, well, there's a problem here, now it's attendance. Let's get schools to solve it, right? Hunger, let's get schools to solve it. And of course, you play a part in it. Schools are such an important focal point that we don't have in other aspects of our lives, but it always seems to be the school with there's something going on. And maybe once in a while we need to look at parents. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Right?

Speaker 1

Aaron Ross Powell Well, and uh another caller brought up that school is preparing students for real life. You don't show up to work, you don't get paid. Yeah, right.

Speaker 3

And you do hear that from employers, right? Yes. Some of the students who become adults, young adults who work for them.

Speaker 1

And I know I I would not want to draw a parallel between my class and the working world. Trevor Burrus, Jr. No, no.

Speaker 3

No, it no it's that walled gardens that Andrew Candaruti talked about that maybe we don't need to necessarily reflect the world.

Speaker 1

But you know, and attendance is important. It is. And uh being present is important. And and your contribution, what you add to the class and and how you work with others is important. It's a life skill. So we are in schools you know creating um environments to develop life skills. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're not present, um then the where you're gonna have to get those uh ideas uh about how to you know work with others and those life skills from other people. Where you're gonna get it from if you're and and and I'm not saying you can't get them anywhere else, but it's harder now. It's harder. And and and if your family is really, really busy and you you you're every moment is accounted for because you're working and you're you know you're organizing your home and you're feeding your family and you're doing all those, those little things. Uh and I believe even extended families. Like a lot of people uh who who've come to Canada uh did not come with uh extended family.

Speaker 3

No, no. They don't.

Speaker 1

And so uh when and when you're moving from one part of Canada to another, you don't necessarily have your extended family. So a lot falls on your plate. Yes. And so where do those extra um social cues or lessons come from if you don't have the the extended family uh friends and family?

Speaker 3

Aaron Ross Powell Don't you think part of the problem is we used to kind of have a common agreement on what those values were, right? Yes. And where home and the school would agree on these things, but now we don't have that much. Yes, I agree. There is some level to that, but there's more who say, you know what, I don't want the school to deal with that. No, no, I don't my son's bored at school, he's not gonna go, right? So there's not that common acceptance of what the values of your country are. Um another caller called in who's actually a teacher and said, I'm really concerned about this policy. Attendance isn't always about motivation. I have students dealing with anxiety, family issues, even homelessness. This would punish them for circumstances they can't control. And this is a this is a common criticism of this idea. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

And and I'm not saying that uh that I know this exists, but how uh having some some numbers, having so the like uh an idea of how many students out there or families are uh s suffering from being unhoused, how many uh uh you know food insecurity. How can you we need you need to have some some idea, some numbers, and and then it it's up to our government, up to our our our society to somehow uh to somehow support those people. Trevor Burrus Yeah.

Speaker 3

Many worry, like one caller are worried as well, that we're actually hitting the vulnerable the hardest, right? Yes. They're already down, they're already dealing with things, and suddenly we're saying now 10 percent of your mark, 15 percent of your mark is going to account for this.

Speaker 1

Aaron Powell So we're we're painting uh the using the same brush for the student who goes away for three weeks to um I don't know, to a warm climate. And then the same student who has missed three weeks because of um caring for uh a family member. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah.

Speaker 3

And obviously we need to deal with those differently, right? But this is sort of that blanket statement. How do you do that? Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Yes, how do you do that? Right. So I you'll hear, listener, I I am all over the map on this because I think it is a hard, hard topic. Part of me goes, yeah, in my day, he showed up, right? I want kids to learn what it's like when they go to work and they need to show up. But I also have great sympathy for all the reasons why people aren't showing up. That could simply be because of what social media has done, but also anxiety and the other things that are going on, mental health issues. So how do we accept that and then deal with that? And like to me, we're gonna we're gonna come back to this eventually. I'm hoping, you know, maybe six months now down the row, we get a panel of four to five Ontario teachers, because they're they are providing us with a real life experiment on this, right? And let's hear what they have to say. Maybe this will really make us go, you know what, it's made a difference. Or maybe they're gonna go, you know what? Those that are coming late, those that are being absent, they're not showing up anymore. They're still not coming. It made no difference. All it did was penalize some good kids, right? So that would be the interesting next step to this uh discussion.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

I don't know if you when you were listening, you I think you heard it too. There was a high school student that called in and she thought it really depends on uh whether the student uh has some back issues, some social emotional issues, or whether they're just you know, she she put it, whether they're just being lazy, right? I think high school kids recognize that. You know, and she said some kids skip because they don't care. Others are overwhelmed. If you tie marks to a tennis, you're not fixing the reason they're missing. You're just adding pressure. But you also need a little pressure, and that's that's the other thing. See, that's why I'm going back and forth. Because a lot of kids don't know what pressure is, and they think if you feel any pressure, any worry, that's anxiety and they're suddenly going, I can't do this for a year. You can't do this. What's this what's this what's this pressure? But life has anxiety in it. Yes. And it's not that we shouldn't help people that are dealing with chronic anxiety and issues that are so overwhelming, right? They can't even function day by day, right? I mean, we've all suffered from that in our lives, and we wouldn't want anyone to talk to us in a critical way saying, just get over it, right? Because you can't. But also you don't want to create a a futurist society where there's no anxiety, right? How do you deal with anything in life?

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr. There ha there has to be some challenge, but not so uh because that's that's how we learn, right? Where you know when when you're doing an activity and someone says, this is hard, and it says, Yes, it is.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Because it's the first time you're doing it. You know, nothing is uh it it's rare. It's rare that when you do something for the first time and when you're you're learning something, that you go, oh, that that's easy. Right?

Speaker 3

It uh it's I don't think anybody got on a bike the first time and did it. Yeah. It was hard. Yeah. Or even walking. You're falling down on your face a lot, right? So how how do we create a generation that still can push through so perseverance and deal with challenges?

Speaker 1

Yeah. But ultimately, I think what this all comes down to is this is about a system that's struggling to re-engage students after a cultural shift. Yeah. And then somehow during COVID there was a a a shift about school is kind of uh optional. Yes. It's not as important as it once was. Um if you are uh uh uh intellectually doing well, then it becomes more optional for s in in the in the mindset of some parents. And for other parents who are um would like to have had maybe more opportunities to in higher education, they see for their kids that this is an opportunity uh for them to you to to glean higher education, to to go in a direction of uh um better job and m and and more opportunities in life.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And not and you know, not to say that things are better in BC, that the numbers in BC are are there's a lot of chronic absenteeism. But they're they are better than Ontario. And I can't help but think, is it because we weren't out as long? Right? It was six weeks. Um high school students were, but they had a rotating system, right? Where Ontario, they were out a lot longer.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 3

Um I think if you look at the states, those states where kids were out longer, it the absenteeism is far greater versus those states that did go back to school.

Speaker 1

Ontario has some pretty harsh winters. I'm not shoveling my way to school. No way. Right? The snow has you know a meter and a half uh uh accumulation on the on the road. I'm staying home.

Speaker 3

Don't blame them. One of the guests on Ian's uh cross-country checkup show, you know, as I just say Ian now, right? Keep it simple.

Speaker

It's like you know them well.

Speaker 3

They were asking for evidence about what you know, you'd like to- I mean you want to base at the end of the day, there you talk about the data, right? And you do want to base it on something. And he says it's it's mixed, right? Okay. You know, the question, do punitive measures improve attendance? The research is not clear. You know? That in the end, support systems, mental health resources, engagement strategies, building relationships, when students feel connected, attendance improves naturally.

Speaker 1

Wow. Did I see that in my class? Yeah. Did you?

Speaker 3

I saw it in my class. I'm not saying some really had a struggle, right? But if they feel connected and they felt listened to, they would come. Yes. You know, I'm not saying it's a simple solution for every student, right? But that is part of the answer, I think. And maybe part of the answer is more counseling, smaller classes, ways that teachers can then be more connected with their kids, right? But they're overwhelmed as well with conditions that are becoming almost impossible to teach in. That's right. So that is definitely what makes this such a complicated, complicated uh study of investigation.

Speaker 1

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: What you're saying, the stunt brothers can't solve this. Well, we're trying to have the answers. We're trying. So we have more questions than uh answers. And do you know what I would love? What would you love? Some more questions or some observations from our listeners. Yes. Uh they've been pretty quiet out there.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Right? People had strong opinions. Most of the opinions tended to be, well, you know, kids need to learn what it's like to go to a job. So I'd rather hear the other side too. Right. Right. Those who think this is not a good idea. I mean, we want to hear every side. I just want to hear a get a balanced view of this because it it that noise in the car isn't making me think it's necessarily just giving kids a mark in attendance. That's where I'm kind of drifting. But I I also understand why some would think that's a good idea. Right? So tell us what you've seen, what is going on in your classroom. Parents, what do you think? Students. We still plan to have a group of students together, a panel of high school students. This is what we're gonna talk about quite a bit, I think. I want to hear their views on this. You know? Um and obviously, like if kids are going to school, they might think this is great. It's an easy 10 to 15 percent. But what about those that it's not easy to go to get done work? Yeah. Yeah. So please share. Uh Ontario teachers, we're definitely gonna be looking for a panel of you within a year or less than a year. So this is an ongoing discussion, I think.

Speaker 1

This will not be solved in uh the next month. What?

Speaker 3

I know. You when I signed up for this Stunt brothers are going to solve every problem.

Speaker 1

I didn't know about that, but uh I know that what we need is uh to get more uh opinions about it because it's uh if Ontario is doing this right now, because they see this, uh there's gonna be some expectations for other provinces to do something also. Because while our numbers are not the same as Ontario, our numbers are low. Aaron Powell They're still bad. Trevor Burrus, Jr. They're still bad.

Speaker 3

And we and we and we look back at the numbers, like you said, we get happy about those numbers in 2010. But I want to see the numbers from 1990-91, because that's when I started teaching. And most kids were there most of the time. Yeah, they'd get the colds and the flu and be off or those things. But the kids came.

Speaker 1

Aaron Ross Powell I I remember that even the students who were late would be there'd be one or two. And then uh there would be more around the time of maybe spring break or special long weekend kind of activities where the student would take the parents would leave day early, maybe get on the ferry or something. But in my TOC experiences um this year and last year, I would I would take attendance and there would be at any given time in a class of I'm saying about twenty somewhere, uh primary classes, uh twenty-two and uh intermediate classes if it was a split maybe I think twenty-seven. Um it would be easy, that there would be eight or nine students away when I would take attendance, and then maybe three to four would trickle in. And so but you know, nine students away, three or four would come back sometime around recess time. But that that would be regularly that many students away. Right. Um it is surprising. I I don't remember that in my teaching career, having so many students away.

Speaker 3

Aaron Ross Powell So to wrap up, here's something to trigger everybody. I'm gonna say, have we become too soft? Right? Maybe maybe you maybe you go, what's he talking about? He does not understand the heart of this issue. Great, good. I want to trigger something. I want to get some emotion out there. Have we become too soft with our students? Maybe we have. Maybe you think, yes, this is the way to go. We we we're creating a generation of of students that can't handle anything. Okay, right. You know, I see kids that do a more amazing thing than ever. So we're doing something right with many of our students, right? High school students blow my mind when I see them today. Yes. And the way how articulate they they are, they're concerned about each other, they're passionate. So there's also something right going on, too. Okay.

Speaker 1

And on the other side of the coin, what breaks my heart are there are students who who aren't attending school because of social anxiety or anxiety, um, family issues. And those are the students that want to be there, but there's something preventing them. And uh what breaks my heart is that the the system itself is not providing the assistance to support those students. And I I've seen it before where uh I've been in a class and someone said, Mr. Hunt, I'd like to go see the counselor. And okay, that's great. You know, someone who's taking the opportunity to realize that they're they're they're not feeling regulated and they want to go see the counselor, and they go down and there's no counselor. Yeah right? The counselor's not here today.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Right? And I I think that the counselor should be available all day.

Speaker 3

Should be a full-time counselor at everyone. Full-time. Right, no matter what size that school is.

Speaker 1

And uh dedicated to that one school. And okay, do you know I hate to say this, but do a pilot project.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 3

Do I laugh. You know, when you know when you when you're at that school. Hey everybody, the principal comes in, we're gonna be a pilot school. Okay.

Speaker 1

Do a pilot project and every school gets a full-time counselor and see what attendance is like. Yeah. See how often, you know, the the the the counselor can make a list of all the students that come to see them and then use that as again I'm gonna use that dirty word as data. Yeah. Or data. Uh use that as a benchmark of how that counselor is being utilized. Yeah. And then use that information that every counselor in BC has gleaned from one year, and then use that for for how many hours a counselor could be used in a school.

Speaker 3

Aaron Powell Well, that would make sense, but you know what it means. It means more money on the table, right? So it's much easier to be the government that says, hey, we're going to give a mark of 10 percent. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1

But wasn't that a promise by this government to increase counseling?

Speaker 3

Aaron Powell And they have. That's part of the new collective agreement we just achieved. So every school has is getting more. It's not a huge amount, but it certainly was a step in the right direction. So, listeners, after you make your after you make your rating for us, say it a lot this episode. After you give us a rating, whatever wherever you're listening to this podcast, make a comment. We want to hear from you. Where do you line up? Are you in the no, we need to get to the root cause of this? Or maybe you think the root cause is just kids that have been coddled too much at home and at school. There's a whole group of people that think that. Do we need to turn the heat up right? We need to turn the heat up a bit, right? In my day. I hate that.

Speaker 1

I hate that in my day. Yeah, exactly. It was pretty hard.

Speaker 3

It was pretty horrible, let's be honest, right?

Speaker

I had to walk up hills in a snowstorm.

Speaker 3

It was nothing.

Speaker

With no shoes.

Speaker 3

It was minus eighty. It was on the moon. It's like the four Yorkshiremen. Have you ever seen those guys? Wondie Python, four Yorkshiremen.

Speaker 1

Nope.

Speaker 3

And they're all they're one-upping each other. Okay. Like they go to the next level. So it's the old my day thing. So please, listeners, let us know. Dear listeners, let us know where you stand on this, what your thoughts are on this. We only will solve those problems that the Stunt brothers want to solve when we engage in conversations with all viewpoints, with every side. We will get to the heart of this, right? That's right. And then we can be advocates to make the system better. So share your thoughts. Thanks for joining us today. Yes, thank you so much. I like your attendance. There you go. Your attendance was fantastic. Yes. Your rating for us was really appreciated.

Speaker 1

Yes. Five out of five for me. Thank you. Four out of five, Martin's gotta do Martin's gotta try a little harder. Wow. Okay. Gold star for Roy.

Speaker 3

The Roy Hunt show now. This podcast is organic, taking shape with each episode. Building resiliency for teachers everywhere.

Speaker 1

That sounds great.

Speaker 3

And our website is stuntbrothers.ca.

Speaker 1

That's stuntbrothers.ca.

Speaker 3

We will chat again.

Speaker 1

After the bell.

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