Talking All The Little Monsters With David A. Robertson: A Writer's Journey

In Episode 67 it’s May the Fourth, a beautiful sunny day, and our podcasters are trying to figure out why they are seeing so many students in and around the city library. The Stunt Brothers quickly realize it’s not an attendance issue in North Vancouver but a Professional Day. Martin then informs Roy that on today’s field trip on After the Bell, they’ll be joined by one of Canada’s most important and versatile voices in literature, David A. Robertson. A bestselling author whose work spans children’s books, graphic novels, memoirs, and novels. David is known for powerful storytelling and his books have helped spark meaningful conversations around Indigenous perspectives, history, and lived experiences. His latest novel, All the Little Monsters, takes readers in a different direction, offering a deeply personal and honest exploration of anxiety, mental health, and the internal struggles so many people carry but rarely speak about openly. Get ready for an insightful and engaging conversation with one of Canada’s most celebrated authors, right here on After the Bell.

Learn more at stuntbrothers.ca

keywords
David A. Robertson, Indigenous literature, mental health, All the Little Monsters, representation, storytelling, Canadian authors, mental health awareness, Indigenous perspectives, writing journey

key  topics
Evolution of David Robertson's writing
The importance of representation in literature
The story behind 'All the Little Monsters' and mental health

action  items
Practice deep breathing daily
Engage in community activities
Read 'All the Little Monsters' to understand anxiety

resources
David A. Robertson's Official Website
All the Little Monsters' Book
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada  
Mental Health Resources Canada

Get Involved

• Rate & Review on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/after-the-bell-a-stunt-brothers-production/id1788804386
• Rate & Review on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0OD77C1YjJOjwwBfsnnu1u 
• Follow the show with our Facebook Group:          https://www.facebook.com/groups/941827558047720/
• Visit our website: https://stuntbrothers.ca/

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:05

Good afternoon, podcast listeners everywhere. Welcome to After the Bell, a Stunt Brothers production.

Speaker 1 0:11

I'm Martin Stuible. And I'm Roy Hunt, and we share your pain, having taught a combined 70 years. Seventy years? I know. Wow. So get out your marking, organize your supplies, or just pour yourself a coffee. I think I need something stronger. That's okay. Okay. And listen, engage, and interact with After the Bell, a podcast for you, the hardworking, dedicated teacher who wants free lesson plans, free advice, and a free meal. Well, I always show up for a free meal.

Speaker 2 0:41

Well, you missed it, everyone. Roy was just uh doing some amazing vocal performances. His greatest hits.

Speaker 1 0:48

Roy's Greatest Hits. It'll be uh put together as compilation uh, I guess album.

Speaker 2 0:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1 0:54

Uh if I put it on a C D. What's a C D. Exactly.

Speaker 2 0:59

Anyway.

Speaker 1 1:00

Although maybe we could put it on vinyl. Lots of people are buying vinyl.

Speaker 2 1:03

They are now. So Roy's greatest hits on vinyl. I'm looking forward to it. I got a little sampling while we were classic vinyl. We were testing the mic.

Speaker 1 1:11

So now what?

Speaker 2 1:12

Back in the box.

Speaker 1 1:13

Yes, we are.

Speaker 2 1:14

Another episode of After the Bell.

Speaker 1 1:16

That's that's right.

Speaker 2 1:17

Episode 67.

Speaker 1 1:19

67. Yeah. And uh season two, so it'll be thirty-seven.

Speaker 2 1:24

Crazy. Crazy.

Speaker 1 1:25

Crazy. And we're that puts us above where we were last year with only thirty episodes. Yeah. Now we're at thirty-seven.

Speaker 2 1:34

And we were sitting outside where we record in the in the box here, the studio. And um we were sitting in the sun because the weather is glorious.

Speaker 1 1:43

It's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 1:44

It's just perfect.

Speaker 1 1:46

I came inside because I was breaking a sweat and I was and I was afraid I was gonna get sunburned.

Speaker 2 1:52

Your your body was going, what is this?

Speaker 1 2:00

Yeah in uh the more northern regions. I I wore shorts because I didn't want to give up. And I had a fleece on top and my legs were freezing.

Speaker 2 2:11

Not that problem today. And when we sat there, uh it's a Monday, so this is so by the way, May the fourth be with you.

Speaker 1 2:18

We're recording on May the fourth.

Speaker 2 2:21

It will come out in a week. Um that would be May 11th, this episode. But we're recording May 4th, so May the 4th be with you for sure. But I looked around and it's Monday. It's it's May still. A lot of kids around. There were an awful lot of kids. And we just did that episode on attendance last week. I don't think a North Van has an attendance problem.

Speaker 1 2:40

Is this the problem? And then it hit me.

Speaker 2 2:44

It did.

Speaker 1 2:45

Today's a professional day.

Speaker 2 2:48

It's a day of learning and education for teachers. They have a work day, but the kids do not.

Speaker 1 2:54

That's right. So attendance is at an all-time low today. It is.

Speaker 2 2:57

And it's supposed to be. We should do an episode on it. Horrifying decline in North Vancouver on May the 4th. Something to do with Star Wars for sure. But then, of course, we should have known because we actually went to a professional development conference today and heard a keynote speaker.

Speaker 1 3:12

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: The keynote speaker was David A. Robertson.

Speaker 2 3:15

Yeah, very famous, well-known writer in Canada. He's won all kinds of awards, written all kinds of genres and books. Just an incredible person.

Speaker 1 3:24

And today he spoke to a book that he just recently published called Uh All the Little Monsters.

Speaker 2 3:31

He he did, and it was just a fascinating talk. He's such a wonderful person. You can see when it comes out in his discussion of his life and the sharing that he did.

Speaker 1 3:41

And he would be a great great guest for our podcast.

Speaker 2 3:46

I think he needs to come on our podcast. Yes. And you know what?

Speaker 1 3:50

What?

Speaker 2 3:50

I already asked him. What? David Robertson's coming on our podcast. Wow. Yeah. We're gonna get him here. He's gonna come down shortly. We're gonna bring him into the box and kind of continue the discussion. Talk a bit about some of his past in terms of his writing, right? What got him started in that career. Okay. And then probably d dive into all the little monsters as well.

Speaker 1 4:11

Well, and I read All the Little Monsters and I really enjoyed it. And then today, uh hearing him speak to his book, but he because he has a great sense of humor. So I'm looking forward to I'm looking forward to laughing today.

Speaker 2 4:25

Absolutely. And I'm honored he's coming on, right? And um he's gonna come on. I will do the introduction once he's here. So we can those who do not know David Robertson, you should know him. If you don't know him, you will get a chance to learn all about him today, and I will do an introduction once we start our field trip. Sound good? Sounds great. Let's go Today on After the Bell, we're joined by one of Canada's most important and versatile voices in literature, David A. Robertson. Many educators will know David from his widely used books in classrooms across the country, where his stories have helped shape meaningful conversations around indigenous perspectives and lived experiences. His latest book, All the Little Monsters, takes readers in a new direction, offering a deeply personal and honest look at anxiety, mental health, and the internal struggles so many people carry but rarely talk about. Today we're gonna dive into David's journey as a writer, the stories that have shaped him, and the message behind his powerful new book. David, welcome to After the Bell. Thanks for having me. And before we do anything, we always start off with A, B, C One, Two, Three. So quick little icebreakers. No stress. Okay. No anxiety. It's not stressful.

Speaker 1 5:39

It's not stressful. All right. So you'll do the I'll do A B C. Martin will do one, two, three. A prairies or mountains? Mountains. Okay. Okay.

Speaker 5:51

B Why. Why? I mean the sky is great, but it's just it's so boring sometimes. I love the mountains.

Speaker 1 5:59

I agree. I from southwestern Ontario. I moved here. And I went back to southwestern Ontario last week and I missed the mountains almost instantly.

Speaker 6:09

Yeah. Mountains and and and the ocean. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 6:12

There's something very spiritual about it. Yeah.

Speaker 6:16

Sure.

Speaker 1 6:17

All right. So B, basketball or hockey?

Speaker 6:22

Basketball to play. Yeah. Okay. Hockey to watch. Okay. Yes. I'm just like hockey dad, so I cheated on that one.

Speaker 2 6:30

Do you watching the playoffs right now?

Speaker 6:32

No.

Speaker 2 6:32

No. I didn't either. I mean, I like the Canucks once and the Canucks aren't in it. I don't even care. But I found out Montreal was in it and I watched the game yesterday and it was it was absolutely.

Speaker 6:49

Basketball is the only sport I'm good at. Okay. So yeah. Probably not even anymore.

Speaker 1 6:55

C. Early morning writing or late night writing? Both. Okay. I also cheated again.

Speaker 7:04

I do both. But nothing in between. Just like I just don't get as much sleep.

Speaker 2 7:09

Yeah. Oh really?

Speaker 7:11

Yeah. Okay. One, two, three. Did you have a favorite book as a child? Yes. And what was it? Tom's Midnight Garden.

Speaker 2 7:19

Okay.

Speaker 7:19

Philip appears. Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about that? He was uh quarantined from the measles. Okay. Sent to his auntie and uncles to stay in a flat in London. Um, and the grandfather clock strikes 13 every night. He finds out it opens uh to another time in the same area who time travels through this portal every night. He meets a girl at different ages of her life named Hattie, and she's a beautiful portal time travel story. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1 7:43

Wow.

Speaker 7:43

Did that inspire some of your later writing?

Speaker 1 7:45

Yeah.

Speaker 7:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2 7:45

100%. I'm thinking so. Yeah. Do you have a favorite teacher from your childhood? It could be in school or it could be someone else in your life, but if there's someone in school that stands out? Yeah, Mrs. Ratuski.

Speaker 7:57

Okay. Ms. Ratuski. Mrs. Ratuski. Ratuski. Okay. Maybe Miss. Mrs. Anyway, Ms. Ratuski. Yeah. Yeah. She's my grade three teacher. She got me writing. Yeah. So I she gave me the first uh poetry thing I ever did.

unknown 8:10

Yeah.

Speaker 8:10

The first thing I ever did was poetry. She made she made it into a booklet for me and uh made me want to make books. So that was that was her. Yeah. Ms. Ratuski. Yeah.

Speaker 2 8:18

I always talk about my grade four and five teacher, Miss Miller, who I actually got to meet up lately with her again. And she had Crichter's creative writing, and it got me, I love writing too. I'm not I'm not anywhere what you do, but I love it. But you can be. Yeah. I aspire to it for sure. And uh she's the one, without a doubt, who got me into that world. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 8:38

When I won when I when I won the Governor General's award, um I she emailed well, I was oh sorry, I don't think it flex. It was the second time I won. And she uh flexible. She emailed me. She emailed me and out of nowhere, and she just like said, congratulations on winning, and I was able to tell her that I think it was like I would have won it without you. Oh my god. Yeah, it's really nice.

Speaker 2 8:59

That's possible. That would warm her heart. Yeah. It was great. And number three, if you had only one piece of music that you could listen to for the rest of your life, say you're on a deserted island, you only hear this one piece, you don't have to play it over and over again until you're sick of it, but is there one piece that would stand out?

Speaker 9:14

McCathy's song by Simon Garbuckle. Yeah.

Speaker 2 9:16

Yeah.

Speaker 9:17

Is it like perfect songwriting? Yeah.

Speaker 2 9:22

Yeah.

Speaker 9:22

Yeah. It's amazing. That's my favorite song of all time. And when it starts, it's just the live version though.

Speaker 2 9:27

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 9:29

Yeah. It's so good.

Speaker 2 9:30

Fantastic.

Speaker 9:30

Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 9:32

All right. You didn't have to do that. Yes, you did.

Speaker 9:35

You passed the test.

Speaker 2 9:36

It was like longer than one-word answers, but. No, that was great.

Speaker 1 9:39

Well, uh one thing I would like to ask you is, you know, in in in in uh having read as we said, 52 ways uh to reconciliation. Um I would like to ask you how you say welcome in Cree.

Speaker 9:55

Yeah. I don't know. Okay. You can say I say tansy means hi. Tancy. Okay. Hi. I don't know. Welcome. I mean I'm I'm like I don't speak Cree, I speak some words. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 10:05

You mentioned in the book um i it's equosani. At the end you said, Echozani? Ekozani is thank you. They used the wrong language.

Speaker 10:13

Well, well, as when I had my first book launch, I said Miguelch. Okay. And uh this is Anishnaabi Moen word. Yes. Yeah. So my dad afterwards was like, you're not you're not you're not Ojibwe. You're Cree. Right. See Ekozani. So ever since then I said the right word.

Speaker 2 10:28

And I really connected in that section because you talked about going to Germany and all the different dialects, and my dad is German. And I just it's amazing how one country can really have so many languages.

Speaker 10:38

Yeah. Yeah. So many different indigenous languages across Turtle Island. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:43

So we're gonna we're gonna get to your current book later, but I wouldn't mind getting into some of the background of you as a writer. Okay. Okay. Yes, do it.

Speaker 1 10:51

Okay. So when we look at uh when you look back at your earliest work, um uh how have you noticed your writing has changed?

Speaker 11:01

Well, I think that I've just gotten maybe better at it. Um but that probably comes with time. Um I don't think my message has probably evolved too. Um but just because I think I've done some work in different areas that I don't have to repeat. So when I sort of first started out, I was really focused on like residential school history quite a bit. And or like, you know, missing and murdered in indigenous women and girls. Uh and so those were really important topics to to reach because I didn't uh have them when I was growing up. And we really weren't talking about them still, I think a great extent in Canada and even like 2010 in residential school history, maybe like in high school, but not really elementary or or middle years too much. So I just well, I saw that I think you see something you can affect change with, and maybe you have also responsibility to do it. So uh I started out doing that. I was doing mostly graphic novels. Uh and I think over time I really tried to improve my message through honing my craft. So I I've tried to tackle different forms and genres. That has definitely changed. Um and then just what I have to say has changed. I mean it's all reconciliation, it's all you know, representation-based, like mental health or indigenous rights and issues and that sort of thing. But um I just think it's my understanding of how much work there is to do has has also increased the breadth of what I what I write about and what I talk about. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 2 12:28

Do you feel more free now to write what you want to write rather than feeling the burden of that at the beginning?

Speaker 12:34

Aaron Powell I think of getting there now. I do feel that I mean I don't feel really like um I don't feel really held back by it, but I think there is an expectation that you know Dave Robertson is going to write about this thing. Um and and I think now I'm getting to the point where I feel I'm giving myself the grace to have a bit more freedom with the books that I write. I have a bit more fun with it. Um I still think anything I write will have some sort of a intention or message. Um but I just want to have a lot more freedom with what I do and give myself a bit more leeway with the stuff that I write. Um I think I've done a lot of work and I feel like I want to do a bit more things for for me, but also I think that will help other people too. But yeah.

Speaker 2 13:17

And just a a burning question for me is even if you go into the library here, often your books are in the indigenous section. Do you do you do you celebrate that, or do you think I'm a writer? I don't and you feel pigeon-holed into that? Like is that a good thing or not? I don't know. What what do you think?

Speaker 13:32

I have a lot of thoughts on that. You know, I my dad was growing up, uh he he was he was a reverend. Um and he when he was graduated from UBC and became an ordained minister, um they said he was like an indigenous minister. So they tried to put him into a reserve to to preach. And my dad said, I n I think I'm a minister. I'm not really I'm not an ind indigenous minister. I'm I'm indigenous, but I'm a minister. So they sent him to Melita, Manitoba, like a little s small town, that my dad thought they were punishing him for that. So they sent him to like the nowhere town, which is great because my mom lived there, so I wouldn't exist if my dad wasn't like stubborn. But uh for some reason, yeah. So I feel like sometimes I I mean I want to be known as a great writer, you know, not like a great indigenous writer. Because I feel like that's that's saying that like there's different like levels of greatness. I don't I don't think that's necessarily true. Um but not that it's saying I'm great, but I feel like that the standards aren't different, I don't think. So but I do feel like there's an importance to me being visibly and you know uh out and outwardly like indigenous because I think it is like maybe aspirational for younger writers or aspiring writers to know that like what I've been able to accomplish in my career, um I've been able to do as someone who's indigenous in this field. I think being an indigenous writer, I think maybe lends itself to uh that sort of belief in someone that they can do it to. So I think I appreciate it, but I also don't want to be kept in that one little box. Yeah. I think my writing is also for everybody. So I think, you know, I think uh I'm okay being the section, but I think it's universal. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 15:13

So you wanted you've wanted to be a writer since the age of seven.

Speaker 15:17

Eight, yeah. Eight? Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 15:19

So then are you the writer that you envisioned as an eight-year-old?

Speaker 15:24

I don't know. I think so when I was younger, I remember going home after my teacher gave me this assignment to write poetry. And I remember writing to the house, telling my mom I wanted to be a world-famous writer. That was my eight-year-old goal. So I I don't I haven't I haven't gotten there. But um I do feel like if I was if I was realistic, I think that I've done a lot more than I thought I'd be able to do. And a lot of that's luck. I think a lot of that it was like a lot of hard work. And so I think that I'm further along than maybe I thought was possible. Um i i in like a more mature brain. You know, not to say like this, you know, world f world-famous writer, but I don't really care about fame. I care about impact. And I think that that's maybe comes with maturity too. I think what I've been able to do in my career, although I think it's other for other people to assess that, I think I'm pretty happy with what I've been able to accomplish. And not that I want to stop, but I feel like I've I'm in a pretty good place as a writer. I think I've I think I'm pretty proud of what I've been able to do. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And what do you love to measure for success?

Speaker 2 16:26

What do you see?

Speaker 16:27

I think it's just like you know so I mean I I'm lucky enough to win a s a lot of awards. But I think the I think the measure of success for me is getting like an email from somebody who's read my book and wants to reach out and share their story with me. That that is real success to me. It's like you can I want to like help people. So I feel like that means so much more to me than being an award. That's connection, right?

Speaker 1 16:53

When you uh there's a you wrote something, there's some trust. Someone read that and they felt trust and they felt a connection to you, and they can uh as a retired teacher, you know, uh both of us being retired teachers, you know, when a student comes up to you who graduated uh 10 years ago or 15 years ago and they come up and they just want to make sure that they make they connect with you. That I mean that's uh that's an award in itself. It just fills you know, it fills my heart because you know we we taught, you know, together we've com uh combined 70 years.

Speaker 17:30

Wow. Yeah, I mean you've probably changed a lot of lives. You know. Teachers are a rare breed. Yeah you know. And uh so I think So I I won uh this recognition, I think, or last year. It means more to me than almost anything I've won. And it was just like uh uh community builder of the year. That was meaningful for me. Because that's really the focus of my work is trying to bring people together and build community. And I think that that's really meaningful for me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 17:56

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: The thing about your writing is it doesn't like I think a lot of writers get into one little niche and that's their thing. I mean you've done picture books, memoirs, novels, graphic novels. Do you write differently for different audiences or do you think about the audience, or is it just kind of this is the theme, I'm gonna go this direction, but it doesn't matter whether it's for children or for adults?

Speaker 18:15

I uh I do I'm very intentional about who I write it for. Um So when I when I think of like what I have to say. So for example, it was like uh residential school history, and I thought that I saw I didn't say I saw from the calls to action, the TRC's calls to action, the final report, talking about how it they didn't have uh resources for like res for residential school history for kids. I thought, what? That needs to be out there. So I wrote When We Are Alone, which is a picture book I wrote really intentionally for really very young learners. And and that was really the first picture book for kindergartners of residential schools, I think, that had been written. So I feel like when I write something, I think about I do think about the audience, I think about who it's for, and it makes it helps me to decide what I'm gonna write. So whether it's a graphenel, picture book, you know, memoir, fiction, whatever it might be. Um but in terms of like how I write, when it comes to novels, that doesn't really change. Uh I think about the content and if it's age appropriate or not. But one of the things I've learned as a writer is you never really write down to your audience. So I never try to write anything more simplistic for a kid. Like the Baring Grounds is really complex novel. Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's really complex.

Speaker 2 19:30

Yeah.

Speaker 19:30

It's for like middle graders. So I think they know when they're being topped down to.

Speaker 2 19:36

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah.

Speaker 19:36

I think it's Boris Sendak really was saying that, you know, you never write down to a kid. You know, you kids get it. So I that was a very awful way to paraphrase, because you said something smarter than that. But I think I think that that's what how I approach writing. And so I even like my picture books are you know, pretty complex. You know, the on the trap line, there's a lot of nuances and subtleties of that book. And I think kids really get that. So I think I I do think about who I'm writing for, but it doesn't impact how intelligently I try to write write it. I think kids are probably a lot of times more smarter than kid adults.

Speaker 1 20:06

So they are so uh what responsibility do you feel when writing stories that represent indigenous experiences?

Speaker 20:15

Aaron Ross Powell I feel like really responsible. Yeah. I think I feel I don't feel like pressure on myself, but I feel like you're, you know, you're you're holding a story and you want to represent that story properly. And especially when I'm writing for like different groups of indigenous people, not that I'm writing for them, but writing a character from different groups. So like writing a story about you know Francis Pegamagabo, who's like in a in Ojibwe soldier, that was something I really needed to think a lot about how I was gonna write that character, because I'm Cree. So um the same expectation I have on you know, like like non-Indigenous writers writing indigenous characters, um, you have to do a lot of research and a lot of work to make sure you're doing it accurately. Because we're not a monolith as indigenous people, I want to make sure I'm doing that properly too, or else I would be a hypocrite. So I think I think a lot about that. And even as a Cree writing writer writing Cree characters, I want to make sure I get that properly as well. So the Bering Grounds, for example, like those those two kids, Morgan and Eli, they're like they're in foster care. So and I've never been in foster care. So I want to make sure I got that right because it's so important. There's very there are very little uh books out there about indigenous people in foster care. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 2 21:26

You don't want to be superficial about it, I would imagine.

Speaker 21:29

You want to do it accurately and appropriately and and you want to do it really well. Because it if you do that well, what do you have to say, I think, is really a lot more powerful. So I feel a lot of responsibility for not just like as an indigenous writer writing indigenous characters, but I think just as a writer writing about really important subjects, I feel like that's that's a weight. Um but it's I think it's a it's a good weight. You just have to like handle it properly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 21:53

And as you've started your writing career till now, have you noticed the difference in how uh readers and educators engage in Indigenous writing? Like is there a shit?

Speaker 22:04

It's like so much more aware, so much more capable. I think when I first started out, um there isn't a lot there was a there was a bit, but it was still we're still like at a growth we're I mean we're always at a growth area, but we're we're so we weren't really far along. And so like and and being able to teach indigenous text was something that a lot of teachers I don't think were were really ready for at that time. And now, and I I I'm really lucky because I get to travel Canada a lot and right from when I started until now, so I've seen the growth. Like I've seen from where we started from, where we are now. And it's I mean, it's stark, like how how how far we've come. It's so obvious. And and I think but we have a long, one, long way to go too. But I think teachers are really I think embracing that challenge. Um when I first started out, like residential school history was it. That was all we were really doing. And and maybe not even. Uh and now, you know, 15 years, 16 years later, everybody's teaching residential school history. It's you know, from kindergarten all the way to grade 12, it's amazing. Then the conversation now is like, what what do we need to be teaching now? What are we not doing? And we're not we're actually not doing a lot. So like we expanding that into you know foster care, um, the different, you know, colonial systems in this country. Um, and then like, you know, community, culture, language, like uh land-based stuff. Like that we need to expand constantly. And I think teachers are I think willing to do that. They're pretty amazing.

Speaker 1 23:38

Of all your books, is there one that uh surprised you and how uh how it was responded to?

Speaker 23:45

Um I mean, probably probably all little monsters, I think, which is I ironically is the one book I did that wasn't really an indigenous book. It was that was a mental health book. And I knew that when I started writing it, I mean I I knew obviously I lived with it my whole life, um, but I didn't know how profound it was, like how many people were dealing with it. And I mean I knew it was an issue, but I don't think until I released the book I knew how big of an issue it was. And I had a bit of a taste of it. So when I used to, you know, do a well, I still do, but when I did advocacy for mental health, when I did public speaking for mental health, I would always have people come up to me after and talk to me about, you know, the issue or talk to me what they were going through or they knew somebody was going through something. And now that you know really kind of it made me r realize just that a lot of people were going through it. But when the book came out, the response from people, not only just like in like launches or like public events and how many people would come up to me after, um, but like privately, like you know, DMs on social media, emails from people, or people just stopping me in the street, you know, who've read my book and talking about how much how much it meant to them or or just how much they're struggling, or and that has been it was really overwhelming, but I think it's also been really eye-opening and healing, too, you know, to know that sometimes people just need to have some sort of like a um a safe place to go to start start the conversation. And that so that has been a really amazing thing to experience, but I think it also was something that really surprised me. It was I didn't realize how widespread the struggles were that people were having.

Speaker 2 25:24

Aaron Ross Powell So let's dive into all of the little monsters then. Aaron Powell Okay. Um ready. Yeah.

Speaker 25:29

Ready to dive in.

Speaker 2 25:32

It's such a vivid metaphor, all the little monsters in the idea. Can you tell us the genesis of that and what you know that's the big question that probably will answer all our other questions here. So jump in with that.

Speaker 25:43

Well, uh I mean uh pretty early on I was going to therapy, uh and one of the first therapists I had, we were trying to like I was trying to like figure out what is what I was even going through. You know, and and she really helped me not only accept anxiety, but um figure out like how to I think for me it's how to like humanize it for myself and how to name it so it doesn't feel like such an amorphous, like huge thing that's crushing down on you, you know. And so um she made how me she's what she said to me was that it's like this entity that's with you. And when it's when you're kind of struggling with it, um it it kind of talks to you all the time and it it tells you things, you know. And it could be now for me, I I would I would imagine it talking to me. But i it whether it does sometimes it's just a feeling. So like if you're on a plane and you feel like the plane's gonna crash, and you don't want to go on the plane because you're so worried, it's for sure, actually for sure it's gonna crash, then that's something that's telling you it's not reasonable, right? But it's something that's telling you that it's gonna happen, and then you listen to it and it causes you to alter your behavior. Maybe you don't go on the flight. Or maybe you go on the flight, you're having a panic attack the entire time, you're freaking out because you're sure you're gonna die. So that that kind of voice is, you know, whether it's like for me, it's like for for a while it's don't go up the stairs, or you know, you're not good enough. Like you you don't deserve that award, or whatever it might be, or you're gonna you're gonna completely mess up this keynote, that that sort of thing for me. And so um when it does that and you you listen to it and you don't go up the stairs, or you cancel an event, or whatever it might be, then you just feed into it and it gets like it gets bigger and bigger. It's like when you feed anything, it's just gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger until it does crush down on you, and it becomes this thing that you can't ha walk with anymore. It's just it's just too heavy. So one of the things I learned is I guess it's like a cognitive behavioral thing, but you you have to like expose yourself to the things that you don't think that you could do. And so whether it's like going up the stairs or you know, doing an event you're scared to do, or getting on the plane, whatever it might be. And when you do that, um you're not buying into this the lies that you're being told by this entity. And and so and it shrinks it. You you kind of starve it out and it becomes a little easier to manage. So that that's where that metaphor comes from. It's like thinking of like for me, I I think of it as a little monster on my shoulder, and I I'm in control of it. So I if I listen to it, it it kind of rests control for me. If I don't, I get to stay in the driver's seat. And I'm still I'm pretty good now at not listening to it. I still fail from time to time, but um I think I take those failures and learn from them. Um but that's that's where that title comes from. You know, it's all these little monsters on my shoulder just trying to beat the crap out of me.

Speaker 2 28:23

But I I like the idea of just going f ahead and going anyway and doing it and not giving in to the little monsters. I mean, I I've had tinges of anxiety my whole life, but I've often just said out loud, I'm gonna do something that I don't want to do. But I say it out loud and then I have to do it and I overcome it. I've uh that's my way of dealing with it too. So I appreciate you putting it that way.

Speaker 1 28:41

Yeah. So when you you're talking about the little monsters and try then trying to tame those little monsters, you need to have a like a toolbox uh of things. So what what are the things that you would have in a toolbox to keep those monsters at bay?

Speaker 28:57

Aaron Ross Powell Like hammer, baseball batch, somewhere to hide the body. No, I um I so for me I have a bunch of things in that toolkit. I think, you know, I breathing is a big one. I feel like when I have panic or anxiety, I I find my breath shortening. And I and it really does compound the those feelings. So I try to like make sure I'm really mindful of my breathing. And when I'm going through a really tough stretch, I I try to really breathe deliberately and deeply into my belly. And that is therapeutic for anybody to be able to do that. Uh that's a big one. Um I think like for me as well, it's you know, getting uh music going and like listening to music that I love, um, you know, being on the land, um, being near the water, listening to the water, really important too. Um I think like you being in a community that you can talk to people about your struggles with, I think is really important. So when I'm when I'm really bad, I'll call somebody, call a close friend or uh and just chat with them. I get the same thing from them. Like they'll call me, they're having a hard time, and we'll kind of talk with each other. So that's big too. Uh uh medication for a while is important as well for me, and I I'm off it now, but I feel like that was definitely something that helped me get through a lot of hard times. And and I think when you have medication, I think you're supporting it with other stuff is really you know, really important to me. So those are some things that I'm able to kind of do. And I think also it is like we were talking about earlier, is it's like taking control and doing things anyway, I think is that's really, really powerful.

Speaker 2 30:33

Do you worry about about our modern world and the online world and we're losing community because of that? Like we're losing those connections with friends and family. Because I read recently in 2003, I think the average teenager would spend, I think, twenty-five hours with their friends. And now it's five hours, right? Yeah. They're not connecting. Like a week?

Speaker 30:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 30:54

In a week, yes.

Speaker 30:56

Yeah. No, I I think Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. Uh and I so I think social media and the internet can be like a force for good. It can be a force for bad. You know, so it's like it's how you use it, I think. And I think it's like having conversations with kids on like how to use it properly and health in a healthy way. Um if you're going on there scrolling all day, and doing you know, going on you know, doom scrolling or reading like crap on there and whatever it might be, I think that is pretty damaging. But it can be this great tool to connect. Absolutely. You know, like I have a friend who's a gamer and she has a community on there that she talks to while she plays, and it's I mean it's really helpful for her. And when you especially when you have like maybe like, what is it? Um your social anxiety, you don't want to you don't you don't want to really be around people physically. And it's just it's hard for you. You can go online and talk to people, and that is a really great way to connect if you're struggling in the other way. So I think it's all about balance, you know, and I think it's uh it but it is a problem. And people I think are are feeling more anxiety today because of what they're reading online, what they're seeing online. And it's it's we're we are living in an age of anxiety. I think part of it is to do with I mean probably a big part is to do with the internet.

Speaker 3 32:14

Yeah.

Speaker 32:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2 32:15

Finding that balance. Getting outside, making connections and real things, right? Deep breathing, all those things that are away from that. Like then you can manage it, but if you're not doing those things, I think it's overwhelming.

Speaker 32:26

Yeah, I was with someone this weekend and um and like I didn't go on my phone probably even like more than a couple times. And I was on my phone for like five minutes this weekend and I was outside. Yeah. And just like visiting and out, like breathing air, yeah, and like walking and and going to some pretty places, and that was way better than like feel a lot more rejuvenated, a lot calmer. Yeah. It's the company you keep too, but it's it's all of that is way better, I think, than just like looking at your phone and coming up for error after five hours and you're like, how many reels did I watch? You know?

Speaker 2 33:03

So I find you so brave to have written this book, All the Little Monsters. Like, was there a point where you doubted yourself and thought, I don't know if I can put this all on paper? No. You you were convinced this was the right thing?

Speaker 33:15

I think it was I was convinced it was the right thing. Um I think there's times when I s had to stop because it was pretty heavy. Like it's hard to revisit things that you've been through. And I think it's important to do that, but it's hard. Especially thinking about, you know, when I was really struggling like 16 years ago, and writing about that was hard because you realized just how bad it got and how close you were to not being around. And that was hard. Um but I also think that was healing too. You kind of you're almost it's almost like an act of reclamation. You kind of are able to reclaim your life and like reclaim and recontextualize moments and make them your own. I think that I let go a lot of that. I think writing it helped me to get those things back. So even though it was hard at times, I thought it was important and I never really wavered in it. Um but I had to do a lot of self-care in in writing it, especially also in like doing the audiobook. You just like reading it over again. You know, so that was yeah, but I think I was I'm better for it.

Speaker 2 34:14

You know. But now you're also doing a lot of public speaking about it. So does that bring it out again for you? Yeah. So you do have to revisit this over and over again.

Speaker 34:21

Aaron Powell Yeah, you do. I think the same thing as my dad. You know, when I wrote Blackwater, um I was talking about my dad all the time, and he had just died. So that was that was really hard. And I I struggled for a long time with having to do that. Tell he was able to like take control of that as well and you know, and and trying to um hold them in a healthier way, you know. And I think this is the same thing, you're trying to hold it in a healthier way. You learn how to uh and practice self-care uh and and how to not compartmentalize because you want to be present with people, but how to not take it on yourself and and just listen and and and not um let allow that weight to kind of crush you. Because you it is it's hard to hear a lot of stories from people, uh it can be triggering for yourself, but I think you have to I think for me I've learned how to how to manage that properly. You know, and even today, like you know, I had this talk at a school today and uh and I just went out sat outside for an hour after, and that was that was like a good way for me to kind of let that go.

Speaker 1 35:20

Aaron Ross Powell What do you hope people who don't uh suffer from anxiety take away from your book?

Speaker 35:27

I would say live with anxiety, not suffer with anxiety. I think suffering from anxiety is like is allowing it to have control over you. Yeah. That's just a language thing. I don't want to correct you. No, no, no. Please do. Please, it's okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1 35:40

Um what was the question again, though? Uh the people who who don't live with anxiety, what takeaway would you like them to have from your book?

Speaker 35:52

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. Well there's two probably. I think one of them is so people can understand better what someone else is going through. You know, I think there is uh stigma attached to mental health. I think it's something that needs to really have a lot of work done in terms of normalizing it and destigmatizing it. And I think that this book, because it is told from a place of just like raw lived experience, I think it'll help people understand more about how it works in someone's mind, what they might be going through. And uh and that I think is I think it's important for people who don't live with it, how they can you better um get a better sense of it. Um I think also someone who doesn't live with it um has people around them who dot who do, for sure. And so being a being able to be a better support for them uh is I think a really important thing to be able to be for somebody. And if you understand more of how it works and you're able to be a better support for someone who needs it from you. So I think this book can help in that way too. I think it offers some solutions, uh not answers, but I think there's no cure, but I think it offers some help. And I think if someone can be a help to someone else, I think that people need that.

Speaker 1 37:05

Aaron Ross Powell In in that help with someone else, could you share the story um about the man in the hole?

Speaker 37:13

Yeah. Yeah. Uh so that what happened um after my dad passed away. And uh I was suicidal. I was doing pretty bad. And uh and I was on the couch, I was lost a lot ton of weight. I was like really withdrawing from like family and from everybody. And and then uh a few things helped me get out of it. Uh you know, the medication and rediscovering some joy in life and you know, like music or writing, working again, that sort of thing. But so my friend Scott, who's my illustrator for a lot of my graphic novels, he stopped by one day and and brought a comic he had made to me. And that comic was about this guy who's stuck in this deep dark hole, like depression, and and uh and d the these people walk by and as they're walking by he calls up for help from them. And one of them is a reverend, and he throws down uh he throws down a well, he doesn't throw it down, I guess he throws down, but he says a prayer. He's like, I'll pray for you. And uh and the guy is still stuck in the hole. And then another guy walks by and it's a doctor, and he says, I'll write a prescription. He throws down a prescription and the guy can't fill it, so he's still in the hole. And the the last guy walks by and he asks for help, and it's just a regular guy, and he crawls over the edge and gets in the hole with him. And uh and the guy who's in the hole says, I mean, what are you doing? Now we're both down here. And the guy who went down there says, Well, I've been here before and I know the way out. I think that's I think it's just I think it's a it's an example of how community works. I think, you know, for me, I've lived with it for so long. I've learned some things, and I think I can I can I think I can help other people who maybe are are new or haven't really got done the work to know how to live through it uh in a healthy way. And I think as well, I'm still learning all the time too. So I I learn from other people constantly. And I think that's the spectrum is you know, you you have people who you who you who support you. I think you can also be be support. And you're also walking with people who are you know on the same stage of the journey as you. So it's all it's all like a it's all a big community.

Speaker 2 39:11

Aaron Powell Don't you feel a lot of people have been there before, but they just won't admit it? Yeah. And often don't you find like you go into a room and there's that person that just seems so confident, so focused, and they probably are riddled with it more than anyone. They just really are good at faking it.

Speaker 39:28

Yeah. For sure. I think I I was good at faking it for a long time too. And I think especially like it's hard for I think men in in particular. Uh men struggle with it just as much as women, and I think they but they suck at talking about it. And I had a lot of people come up to me after my speech today, I was speaking at school today, and and they were talking about how there was their partner or their son or whoever who just didn't want to talk about what they were going through. And and when you do that, I mean you're struggling in silence, and that can lead to some pretty pretty uh dangerous behavior. And I think like you ha you you have to be able to feel safe to speak and to share. And when you do that, I think that's really the first step is knowing you need to get help and being able to ask for it. And I think that like I think you know everybody needs to know that it's okay to not be okay. But I mean part of part of how you become better at dealing with that is to know how to ask for help for it. That's a hard step to take.

Speaker 2 40:32

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I was just listening to uh the actor Andrew McCarthy. He was one of the Brat Pack, you know, Debbie Moore and all those. He was on Matt Galloway's The Current. And he's written a book about friends for men, men of such trouble making friendships. And he had he his son had actually pointed it out to him and said, Dad, you don't really have any friends. And he got acquaintances, people who played sports, and he realized, oh, and he started to reconnect. He went back and he would just show up at friends from high school. And the book is just pointing that out that I think men do have trouble verbalizing their feelings. It's a stereotype, but it is true. It's true, it's a true stereotype. And you know, we need to work on that.

Speaker 41:06

Yeah. I I mean I I've never really had a problem with that. I've always been pretty open about even though I I think like there's two things. So one of them is I I was pretty ashamed with how badly I was struggling with mental health. But it wasn't because I'm a man. I I think it was because I I was I felt weak. Maybe it was maybe it was because I was man. I mean, it's that's probably the problem but I don't know.

Speaker 2 41:29

What a man should be, right?

Speaker 41:30

Yeah. But like I think I think I I've always been pretty good about speaking on my feelings for the most part. I mean, it's probably not good at the times, but I think like I've become pretty good at it. And I think it is when you do see a man who is opening up about their struggles, being vulnerable, I think it makes you feel like, oh, maybe maybe it's actually okay if I do. Maybe it's not actually a weakness. Maybe it's I think it's maybe it's a strength. You know, I think it is a strength.

unknown 42:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2 42:02

I think we need more male teachers in education. I think we're we're finding there's less and less male joining the profession. I think it's a you know kids need to see that modeled by their male teachers as well.

Speaker 1 42:14

Well, how would you view uh, for example, you know where you where you are right now, and if we were to go back to your childhood, would there have been any time during your childhood that some form of intervention may have changed the direction that your anxiety um went in?

Speaker 42:34

I don't know. I think I asked I was asked a question last year. You know, all the little monsters came out I think it was last year. It was uh and I was at a s a high school and I was doing an assembly presentation, and after I was done talking, one of the uh there was a young woman, uh I think she's probably grade eleven or twelve, and she asked me if I could go back and change anything, what I would change. And I thought about that for a long time because I I don't I don't really know. Like uh and and then I I ended up thinking, I and that's what I told her, I don't think I would change anything.

unknown 43:11

Yeah.

Speaker 43:12

Because like, you know, everything that we go through in this life, you know, the the good things and the really hard things, it all shapes you for who you are. And I think part of the healthy way to go about life is you know, not uh I think is accepting yourself. And like I think it sounds maybe cheesy, but it's true. It's like learning how to love yourself. And and if you do things differently, then you're not the same person. And so I I don't think I would change anything because I have to really I mean I've I think I've got to the point now where I'm pretty happy with who I am and I'm pretty comfortable with it. And I'm working on the love part, I'm pretty good at sometimes not at others, but I do think that like I'm I think I I I like who I am and and I I I definitely have made a ton of mistakes. And and I I think there's a lot of things that could have gone better for me. But at the same time, I mean I I am where I am. And that's life's a journey. And all the stuff that you go through, the mistakes and everything you learn from them get better, hopefully all the time. And uh I'll still mess up all the time. I just hope I get I learned from it. Trevor Burrus, yeah.

Speaker 2 44:24

The the actor Richard Dreyfus, who suffers from severe manic depression, he was once asked in an interview, would you rather have had a life that you didn't have manic depression? He said, no. It's part of my journey, it's part of who I am. And he accepted it and it brought about feelings that he just thought went to the core of who he was. So it's really learning to appreciate who we are, right? Yeah, it is. And working on those things that need to be worked on. We all need to do that, right? Yeah, for sure. We know those who don't do that, and maybe they should.

Speaker 44:51

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that's so true. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 44:54

Okay. So then I want to bring us up a little bit and say, like, what are the things that bring you joy?

Speaker 45:01

Well, I think a lot of things. Um I think it is being in nature. I think like being on with my feet on the ground outside and being near the water, I think it gives me a lot of joy. Um I love like I love animals. I love, you know, I'm so into otters lately. It's so funny, but I don't know if otters are having like a having their time, but you know, they I just like they I see them like on these reels and I feel like I want to have an otter. Like this is so cute, those things. And and uh and I love bears and whales. You know, I see a whale, I cry. Like I was so happy to see the whale. Um I think music, you know, it brings me a ton of joy. I listen to music like all the time, constantly. And I just I love it. Um, you know, being with my kids uh I think is you know really important for me, finding time with them. Um I think like connecting with people think brings me a lot of joy too. Like connecting with with like readers or people I meet at conferences, uh, or just like spending time with friends, I think, and and uh just being in community in that way. Um I just think finding as well someone you can be with that makes you feel good and comfortable and safe. And I think that I found that too. And I think that that all I think is pretty joyful for me. I think I'm in a pretty good spot right now. You know. Yeah.

Speaker 2 46:23

When you mentioned joy and animals, my wife was just actually a deep code because I believe you were there.

Speaker 46:27

Yesterday. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 46:29

Orcas came by. I don't know if you find that. Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, we should have stayed out there longer.

Speaker 46:37

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 46:39

She came home with such joy in her face. Yeah.

Speaker 46:41

Yeah. I was beautiful. We spent the day out there. Like we spent like a few hours out there, and I was such a beautiful place to be. And it feels like it's almost like out of reality. It feels like it's so surreal, it's so beautiful. And that was I mean, it's such a it was such a great city at the same time. Oh yeah. It was such a beautiful afternoon. You know, I I I would like that's like in my mental treasure box of like a really perfect day. Yeah.

unknown 47:07

Nice.

Speaker 2 47:08

If if this book uh sparks one conversation, what would you want it to be? Uh you know, among family, friends, colleagues, in the classroom. I don't know.

Speaker 47:18

I think that I just want people to I don't know. I just I want people to just be a little more kind to each other. I think that would be it. I think I think I think I'm quote in the book, but I feel like you need to be like kind with everybody because you don't know what someone's going through. No. I think that's what I would say. I think that we all need that a little bit, I think.

Speaker 2 47:37

Don't judge people so quickly, right? Yeah. Even if you're in the checkup line and someone's being annoying, just don't know. You don't be a dick. Right.

Speaker 3 47:46

Don't be a dick.

Speaker 2 47:50

I think that's what it would be. I think that's a wonderful way to end it. Don't be a dick. That's the title of this episode.

Speaker 47:59

Even if someone cuts you up in traffic, I think they had a really bad day.

Speaker 1 48:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 48:03

You know? So they're there.

Speaker 1 48:06

Yeah.

Speaker 48:07

They're in their ear they're in your lane now. What are you going to do? Just keep driving.

unknown 48:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2 48:15

And that affects you too, because if you get angry about it, then suddenly now you are sitting with this anger inside you. Your day is ruined.

Speaker 48:21

I catch myself sometimes from Winnipeg, a lot of bad drivers in Winnipeg. And like you could you could do that and honk and throw your finger up and yell. That didn't help anybody. And they can't hear you. They don't care. So like you're just yeah, you're just like ruining your own day. So why would you you know I catch up a lot now when I'm driving even like here, someone cut me off, and I'm like Okay. Yeah. I'll just keep going. You know? Like what I have more stuff to do today. Exactly.

Speaker 2 48:50

Find go find that joy, right? Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Well, David, thank you. This has been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you. We really appreciate having you come on after the bell. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you. So David Robertson here in the box in our studio.

Speaker 1 49:11

What a wonderful interview. It didn't feel like an interview. It felt like we were talking to someone, an an old acquaintance.

Speaker 2 49:17

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah. I I almost feel it was a bit of therapy too. I just feel so calm after talking to David. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1 49:22

Yes. There was a a great comfort in his voice, and uh he loves to laugh.

Speaker 2 49:27

Yeah, yes. It is.

Speaker 1 49:31

And you know, uh the things that we talked about, finding joy.

Speaker 2 49:35

Yeah. Getting outside. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1 49:36

Getting outside. Uh community, the importance of community. I know at a time when we're talking about anxiety in our students and anxiety uh that's out there uh in in our communities that um building community i is more important now that I think than ever.

Speaker 2 49:54

Aaron Powell And finding that simple opportunity to do some deep breathing, right? I think those things that he says are just we all know them, right? But we don't practice them. This is another chance to hear someone tell that and learn from David. Yeah.

Speaker 1 50:07

And I I'd like to read something uh from the book that I think is very important.

Speaker 2 50:11

Yeah, and I think it will help our listeners to kind of wrap up the episodes. So just let's hear you read it, and we'll just end with that. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1 50:17

And uh these are affirmations that uh David has come to understand as as mindfulness. And uh it is something from his father's notebook. Just for today, I will not worry. Just for today, I will not be angry. Just for today, I will be grateful. Just for today, I will do my work honestly. Just for today, I will be kind to every living thing.

Speaker 2 50:46

This podcast is organic, taking shape with each episode, building resiliency for teachers everywhere.

Speaker 1 50:53

That sounds great.

Speaker 2 50:54

And our website is stuntbrothers.ca.

Speaker 1 50:57

That's stuntbrothers.ca.

Speaker 2 51:00

We will chat again after the bell.