Beyond Gifted: Rethinking High-Achieving Students in Today’s Classroom With Dr. Alicia Schroeder-Schock

The "gifted" Stunt Brothers start today's episode with giant zucchini stories and Stars Wars tangents before agreeing that a field trip to North Dakota would be a great chance  to get an out of country perspective on high ability learners.

Episode 68 of After The Bell  heads south to the Peace Garden State for a lively, thought-provoking, and laugh-filled conversation about gifted learners, high-achieving students, and what schools can do to truly challenge every child.

Roy and Martin welcome educator, consultant, and the founder of Elementary Elevated, Dr. Alicia Schroeder-Schock, for an engaging discussion on differentiation, creativity, classroom realities, and why “more work” is not the same thing as meaningful learning. From Britney Spears to serious conversations about underachievement, AI in lesson planning, and the misconceptions surrounding gifted education, this episode blends humour, honesty, and practical strategies teachers can use immediately.

Packed with classroom wisdom, relatable teacher moments, and classic Stunt Brothers chemistry, Episode 68 is a must-listen for educators trying to meet the needs of every learner in today’s increasingly complex classrooms.

Grab a coffee, organize your marking, and join the Stunt Brothers for another entertaining and insightful trip After The Bell.

Listeners will discover:

• Why the term “high-ability learner” may be better than “gifted”
• How teachers can challenge advanced students without overwhelming themselves
• The danger of assuming bright students will “just be fine”
• Practical ideas for differentiation, flexible grouping, and student choice
• Why giving the hardest math questions first can actually motivate learners
• How AI can support teachers without replacing authentic student thinking
• Differentiated instruction, multiple intelligences, and engagement strategies

Learn more at stuntbrothers.ca

Learn more about Alicia Schroeder-Schock

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Transcript

STS With The Stunt Brothers

Speaker 2 0:05

Good afternoon, podcast listeners everywhere. Welcome to After the Bell, a Stunt Brothers production.

Speaker 3 0:11

I'm Martin Stuible. And I'm Roy Hunt, and we share your pain, having taught a combined 70 years. Seventy years. I know. Wow. So get out your marking, organize your supplies, or just pour yourself a coffee. I think I need something stronger. That's okay. Okay. And listen, engage, and interact with After the Bell, a podcast for you, the hardworking, dedicated teacher who wants free lesson plans, free advice, and a free meal. Well, I always show up for a free meal.

Speaker 2 0:41

Hey, listeners, here we are. Episode 68.

Speaker 3 0:45

68. Season two, episode 38.

Speaker 2 0:50

Wow, you must be gifted.

Speaker 3 0:52

Well done.

Speaker 2 0:55

Keeping track of it now.

Speaker 3 0:57

It's fast, coming out faster at paying attention to what's going on.

Speaker 2 1:02

We will have an amazing celebration when we hit episode 100. I think that's going to be quite quite the moment. Trevor Burrus 100? That seems far away.

Speaker 3 1:11

Why don't we celebrate when we get to uh 40. I think we're at 68.

Speaker 2 1:20

Okay.

Speaker 3 1:20

You aren't gifted anymore. I take it back. Oh my gosh. What I meant to say I didn't mean 100 for this for this season. Seventy. Okay. We'll celebrate at 70, celebrate at 80, celebrate at 90, celebrate at a hundred. Okay.

Speaker 2 1:36

So everyone. I like the excuse to celebrate. Excuse to celebrate. I like that. That was a good one. Yeah. How have you been doing?

Speaker 3 1:44

I I've been doing well. Good. I've been enjoying. We've had some spectacular weather. We have. Really nice and warm.

Speaker 2 1:53

We're getting much needed rain now. So the forests are happy. Hopefully it continues for a little bit. My garden is happy.

Speaker 3 2:03

It needs a little rain too, right? Trevor Burrus But at night, do you lose sleep when you you feel like the plants are going late? Martin, I'm thirsty. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Get up at 5.30 in the morning and get up and water the plants.

Speaker 2 2:16

Trevor Burrus And I am trying those trombancinous zucchini this year. I talked about it a year ago on the podcast. They had the big ones, huge. I think I said they were like your size. That's an exaggeration. Trevor Burrus, Jr. I'm known for the hyperbole sometimes. I'm well aware of that. But they are huge.

Speaker 3 2:35

They're not the size of Roy. They're the size of three-year-olds. Trevor Burrus Yes, that's it. There you go. That's still pretty to see some a vegetable that big is kind of uh intimidating. Trevor Burrus, Jr. It is. It could be a weapon.

Speaker 2 2:50

It could. See, and that's when we do our podcasts. I think I kind of have my way of approaching it and you have your way. Yes. They're not the same. No, they're not.

Speaker 3 3:02

And I think that's why we uh work so well. I when I would think back about the intelligence I would have at some things, I think I was always very good at art. And I I felt that um when it came to outdoorsy things, that was my niche. That was the thing that I really enjoyed. Yeah. But then uh especially when we uh since we've been working together, I I see I see your gifts and your uh talent, especially i i in the area of writing.

Speaker 2 3:37

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, I think listeners may be surprised because I think we we've developed a chemistry, but we come from different angles when we put these podcast episodes together. And in some ways I feel like we look at the podcast and we kind of see our different learning styles and we differentiate the podcast episode, right? In terms of our needs. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's right. Something we tried in the classroom. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But it's not something that certainly happened when I was young. You know? You know, for example, you think of I mentioned gifted earlier. When you were young, did they have gifted programs? They didn't have a gifted program. They had the smart kids and the dumb kids. That was it. Right? You're at the front of the room, you're at the back of the room. Put the dunce cap on, sit in the corner. So we do uh understand that intelligence has many different components. Yes, it does. Right?

Speaker 3 4:29

And I I know that before, if they were to do to assess to see someone's intelligence, they would use IQ test. And that in itself is biased. But now there are many ways to um assess intelligences. And uh the example that uh I have in discussing it is uh Gardner's uh theory of multiple intelligences. That's basically saying there are different ways that we can be smart, not just one way. And we can be smart musically, we can be smart uh kinesthetically through movement. We can be smart interpersonably, so we can be people smart. We can be uh linguistically smart, so smart on words. Okay. I think you're smart on words. Yeah. Uh mathematical, that's uh that's uh another form of uh logic smart. Okay, absolutely. And then uh naturalist, uh so nature smart. I like that one. I think that connects with me. Yeah. If I could I mean I guess gardening could fit into that for a way, right? Yeah. Uh so uh in uh intra social smart, so self-smart. And you can be visually smart, so uh picture smart, art smart, and I did say music, and I imagine right now for music you're going to be like Beetle smart, right? Star Wars smart.

Speaker 2 5:51

Where does Star Wars fit in the It's got to be a category for Star Wars Smart. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Star Wars Smart. Yeah. Uh I don't know. There's a new Star Wars movie coming out. You know that? Yes, I know.

Speaker 3 6:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2 6:05

The Mandalorian and the little guy, the little Yoda.

Speaker 3 6:08

Yeah. And in fact, I would love to see the see that. No one in my family is even in remotely interested, and the first person I thought of to go to the movie with me was you.

Speaker 2 6:19

Aaron Ross Powell When we do episodes and we we're not in the box, you can always see the Star Wars poster behind me, right? Yes. So definitely. Yes. That or the Beatles. So thank you. We we need to go see that. Aaron Ross Powell I think we do.

Speaker 3 6:34

Yes.

Speaker 2 6:34

But right now, I think we need to develop this idea further of um gifted learners or high achievement learners. Aaron Powell Yes. And we have the North Van experience. We have the gifted program. Most grade three students get a test to see if they fall into that. I mean, that's correct. A one to three percent of the population that they claim is gifted. But it's a complex issue, right? Because at one time in North Van we actually had every school had a point time of gifted teacher. Right?

Speaker 3 7:05

And in in fact, uh there were different approaches. As you know, we had uh our students who are who um are in the gifted program, they have an IEP. So there's an individualized education plan for those students. Uh they would have zone conferences or or zone meetings for uh gifted students. And I I know a lot about that because I was actually one of the zone leaders in uh in our district. So uh my passion is science. Yeah. And so we did uh number of things in in in the meetings on on science. And then the zone meetings in science, there's uh there are opportunities for our gifted students to work with other gifted students. And then there's also the uh approaches that we that teachers take in the classroom. Yeah.

Speaker 2 7:54

And because we have the North Van experience and we've been talking about high achievement learners and gifted learners, I wouldn't mind going out of province and even out of country.

Speaker 3 8:03

Wow.

Speaker 2 8:04

Right? And I would like to talk to Dr. Alicia Schroeder Shock, who is uh an educator in North Dakota. Okay. So I I have been once to North Dakota. I drove down to Winnipeg, down in North Dakota, South Dakota.

Speaker 3 8:18

Never have been. My only point of reference is the movie Fargo.

Speaker 2 8:22

Yes, yes. I think that's a lot of us. That's yeah. So let's go beyond our knowledge of Fargo. Talk to Alicia, who is in North Dakota. Okay. She uh is on the gifted uh committee for the the state, I think, of North Dakota. And she's very involved, and she has Elementary Elevated on our website where she really gives advice and ideas, and you can uh sign up and learn more about that as well. And we'll we'll certainly link that to our website, stuntbrothers.ca at the end. But let's go on a field trip to North Dakota. There we go. Woo! It's the farthest one so far. It is.

Speaker 3 8:58

It is.

Speaker 2 8:59

Well, we we went to Toronto, Ontario. So a little further. Either way. I guess so. I don't know. Yeah. Equally amazing. Okay.

Welcome to Alicia Schroeder-Schock

Speaker 2 9:10

So today on After the Bell, we're going to North Dakota. North Dakota is officially nicknamed the Peace Garden State. Is that true?

Speaker 9:19

Yes.

Speaker 2 9:20

Okay, it is. And I just found out it's a title adopted in 1957 to honor the International Peace Garden on its border with Canada. So very appropriate today that these two Canadians are welcoming our American guest, Dr. Alicia Schroeder Shock, to our podcast. So, Alicia, welcome to After the Bell.

Speaker 9:38

Thank you.

Speaker 2 9:40

Now, Alicia is an educator, consultant, and founder of Elementary Elevated, where Alicia works with teachers to design engaging learning experiences for advanced elementary learners, students that Alicia calls high ability learners. Alicia has a Doctor of Education in Educational Policy, Planning, and Leadership, and a master's degree in educational psychology. Alicia presents nationally on gifted curriculum and differentiation and serves on the board of the North Dakota Association for Gifted Children. Alicia, you ready to have some fun?

Speaker 10:11

I am.

Speaker 3 10:12

Awesome. Well that's great. We always start our podcast with what we call uh ABC123. Uh it's just a quick icebreaker uh in the style of uh Stephen Colbert. Uh it's a question. Um we're gonna ask you questions, just say the first thing that comes to your mind as the answer.

Speaker 4 10:32

Okay.

Speaker 3 10:32

I'm gonna do the ABC. You do the ABC. Martin's gonna do the one, two, three. Okay. Okay. Here we go. So A first grade or fourth grade?

Speaker 1 10:43

First grade.

Speaker 3 10:44

Okay. First grade. Why? Why first grade?

Speaker 1 10:47

I enjoy primary students' energy.

Speaker 2 10:49

Yeah. Okay. My wife, my wife teaches kindergarten grade one and she loves that over any grade. Yeah.

Speaker 10:54

Nice.

Speaker 3 10:55

B North Dakota or South Dakota?

Speaker 10:59

North Dakota.

Speaker 3 11:00

Okay. Is there a a di a big difference?

Speaker 1 11:04

Um I've lived in North Dakota my whole life. Um there's some differences. Uh I don't know. Maybe other people would notice more, but I I obviously prefer North Dakota.

Speaker 2 11:14

Yeah, I I've been to both. I actually like North Dakota. I've been to both. Yeah, yeah. I drove drove down from Winnipeg straight through North Dakota and South Dakota. Fantastic.

Speaker 3 11:24

C. Learner, educator or mom.

Speaker 1 11:29

Mom.

Speaker 3 11:30

Okay. Neat. Well, yeah, I I would choose dad.

Speaker 2 11:34

I would choose dad for yeah. Of all the things when you think about in life, right? What really matters the most? The most important things, yes. One, two, three. Do you have a favorite book as a child that you had when you read in school that stands out in your memory?

Speaker 1 11:50

Little House on the Prairie.

Speaker 2 11:51

Okay. Okay. What was it about it that you enjoyed?

Speaker 1 11:55

I always pictured myself living on a prairie when I grew up. I read the whole series multiple times, and then I found out that the series expanded into Laura's daughter and Laura's great grandma who lived in Scotland, and so I was invested in the whole thing.

Speaker 2 12:08

You were in for uh your entire childhood, right?

Speaker 1 12:11

Yes, I was.

Speaker 2 12:13

And speaking of your childhood, do you have a favorite teacher from your own childhood that you can think of who stands out?

Speaker 1 12:20

It depends on the grade level. You know, in elementary school, my kindergarten teacher, Mrs. Bischoff, she stands out because she sparked my love of learning. And then when I was in high school, my math teacher, Randy Holescamp, he stood out just as really caring about his students, and I just loved every math class I took with him.

Speaker 2 12:37

Wonderful. And number three, if you had one piece of music that you could listen to for the rest of your life, only one, you're on the deserted island. You don't have to play it over and over again until you're sick of it. But is there one piece that you would choose?

Speaker 1 12:50

Yes. Brittany Spears, oops, I did it again.

Speaker 2 12:52

Oh, fantastic.

Speaker 1 12:53

There you go.

Speaker 3 12:55

Fantastic. Thank you. Yeah. So I'd like to start off with asking you a question. Uh could you give us a little bit of uh background about yourself and how you became focused on gifted and high ability learners?

Understanding Gifted Learners and High Ability Students

Speaker 1 13:10

Sure. So I started, I went to school in West Fargo Public Schools my whole life, and I was part of the gifted program throughout elementary school. And then I but I always knew that I wanted to be a teacher, always. And so as soon as I entered kindergarten, I wanted to be a kindergarten teacher. Moving into first grade, I wanted to be a first grade teacher. I just knew that, but then by the time I got to middle school, I stuck with elementary. I just knew I wanted to be with that age of students. And then when I was student teaching, I actually came in contact with one of my primary um gifted educators. And she said, you know, Alicia, if you're really interested in gifted ed, you should get your master's in gifted ed out at the University of Connecticut because they are um well known for their gifted ed program. And so then after three years of teaching, I realized, you know, I really do want to know more about gifted education because you don't get much of that in your undergrad. And then when you're actually teaching and you have to show growth with all of your students, I realized I really need to know more about how to have um my all of my students grow in, even the ones who are scoring at the top at the beginning of the year. And so then I pursued my master's degree, and while doing that, I actually switched positions from teaching, I taught first grade, then I taught fourth grade, and then for the last eight years I've been teaching Gifted Ed because once I started, I realized no, this is actually my passion area for being in this. And so once I finished up my master's, some of my professors from UConn said, you know, Alicia, you're pretty good at this, so you should get your PhD in this, and we'd love you to stay here. And I said, I don't think I'm ready to leave the classroom yet. I want to stay in the classroom. So I went to William and Mary out in Virginia, which their program is an EDD program, which meant that I could still teach while pursuing my doctorate degree. So then I finished up my doctorate also in Gifted Ed. And in that time I had my first son. I have two sons. I have a two and a half year old and a one-year-old. And my son was born while I was working on my dissertation, and I realized I think I need to go down to part-time teaching because I wanted to start transitioning into teaching students to teaching teachers, but I want to teach teachers about differentiation and gifted ed. So even though I'm staying in the gifted ed realm, it's moving into other possibilities of doing professional development in the area that I felt I needed more professional development in.

Speaker 2 15:19

Wow. That's I think it's a great thing to explore first, too. Some people kind of get stuck in certain areas in education, and then that's what they do, but they don't really know other areas, right? So I think you were open to that to try and find your passion. Wonderful.

Speaker 4 15:32

Yes.

Speaker 2 15:33

Um there just a it's a bit of a random question, but we've been doing a lot of issues and talks about attendance problems in schools. Is is I don't know if there's any North Dakota perspective on this that you've noticed that kids are just are not attending like they did. It was, you know, many thought it was a COVID issue kind of thing, but it seems to have continued. It may you may not have any connection to this. It's just something where we we had an episode recently on it and want to know if what it's like in North Dakota. Is this an issue of concern?

Speaker 1 16:00

You know, I'm sure there's pockets of it. But at our school in particular, we haven't noticed huge issues of it. There's always particular students that we have a concern about, but we have kind of systems. We have a level, we call it SARB. Um, it's like student attendance, and and if they miss a certain percentage of school days, then we have a system for other people getting involved and trying to get them to school. But it's not uh like a number one policy problem or things that people are really concerned about. I would think that's it.

Speaker 2 16:27

Okay, good, okay, thank you.

Speaker 3 16:29

So uh could you explain uh what uh the identification process looks like for gifted learners in North Dakota?

Identification Process for Gifted Learners

Speaker 1 16:39

Well, because there's not a national mandate or identification um kind of definition, then North Dakota doesn't really follow suit with that either. So we don't have a mandate to service gifted at gifted students or even to have a mandated identification process. So each school district is on their own for deciding are we going to identify them and are we going to have services? And so really there's only there's less than five districts across the entire state that even offer gifted education services. And those services wide uh vary widely, where some districts only serve third through fifth graders. In the district that I'm in, we start in kindergarten, but that's more informal. We base it off of what we're seeing in the classroom, and then by the end of second grade, we screen every second grader and we check and see what their score is using it's called the COGAT, the cognitive abilities test. We screen that, see where they're scoring, and then give additional assessments, and then by third grade, then we say, Okay, you're formally in the program, we've looked at your scores. Um we look at your classroom perfor performance and then we see if they're um in the program.

Speaker 2 17:43

And what what grade do they do that test, did you say?

Speaker 1 17:47

At the end of second grade, and then we see in third, fourth, and fifth grade. Now there might be situations where sometimes they score really high on that assessment, but then their classroom performance doesn't match up, or we try them in the Gift of Ed program and it's not for them. And and so kids can ebb and flow in and out of the program depending on if it's meeting their needs or not.

Speaker 2 18:03

Because Roy, right, in BC we tend to do a test in grade three.

Speaker 3 18:07

Testing is is usually done in grade three. Um if a student has a particularly high score, then uh uh teachers in BC uh put together an an i iEP, an individualized education plan, it becomes a ministry document to follow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 18:27

And some of our district doesn't have an IEP, but in our neighboring district in Fargo, once they're identified, then they do have they call it an ILP, an individualized learning plan. And they're they're put on a formalized program as well. But not every like I said, not every district does it. It's just dependent on what that district chooses to do.

Speaker 2 18:43

Yeah, and then those students in BC have an option, they can go to the gifted program. It's just a w it's just once a week. There used to be at one time when we started teaching, every school had a point time for gifted in the nineties, and there was a teacher with probably two, three days a week that had time to work with those students, which was considered what I mean, was it one percent of the population? It was always like kind of a narrow, very narrow definition. I think that was the problem too. But you use a bit further beyond gifted, you used the term high ability learners, right? And rather than gifted. Why do you kind of gravitate towards that?

Misconceptions About Gifted Students

Speaker 1 19:18

Yeah, that's what I prefer. I just think it has a lot less baggage attached to it. Because sometimes if you hear the word gifted, then you go, oh, you know, I'm only working with the top 3% or the top 1%, or they need to consistently be above the 97th percentile or the 99th percentile, and it's so minuscule on who they're even considering for the program. And that's why a lot of programs get flack because they're seen as this elitist program that it's super hard to even get into. And so I just like to say that they're advanced or they're high ability, just so that teachers know I'm just looking for students who are either catching on quickly to content or um already come in knowing a lot of the content, or you know, show really high test scores consistently and and and likely need more.

Speaker 2 20:01

I like I like that because I I have found sometimes the term gifted in parents and students can create a bit of a a snobby appeal. You know what I mean? Like I've had students well, I'm gifted, I don't have to do this. Right? And parents also my child's gifted, you know, and they walk around expecting the world, but there's a lot more to it than that, right? And it doesn't make you dive deep into what that child needs.

Speaker 1 20:22

Yes, exactly. And there are some, you know, gifted educators, and and I know that I said that I was part of a gifted program growing up, but I don't see that as like a huge part of my identity, like, oh yes, I was gifted. You know, it was just like, okay, well, I needed more than what the classroom was providing. And there's a big debate in the even the gifted ed world on should we be using the term or not? And I'm less concerned about if a child should be labeled or not, versus what services should we providing be providing students who show that they need additional um, you know, instruction that advances them.

Speaker 3 20:51

What are uh some of the uh common misconceptions about students uh who are gifted or are high ability learners?

Speaker 1 21:01

I would say there's a few. Number one is that we assume that they should be just high in everything, high executive functioning, high in math and in reading and in writing, um, and that they should just be getting high scores all around, and that's not true. Um we also can assume that, you know, if you're gifted, that means you maybe are a teacher's pet or you you're always on good behavior, and then because because then they'll say, Oh, you know, but they're gifted. Why are they why are they causing problems in the classroom? It's like, okay, well, there's something else going on there. Um sometimes we assume that just because they're gifted, that we could just set them off independently and that they can just complete individualized work all the time without guidance. And then I would say something else is that we assume that they enjoy teaching other kids, where we put them in the teacher role because since they know more, they must enjoy teaching other students what they know. And then I would say the biggest misconception is that the students will just be fine if we just leave them. You know, they'll be fine. I only need to meet with them once a week. Because they're they're already high, they'll be fine, their scores

Challenges in Supporting Gifted Learners

Speaker 1 22:03

will be fine.

Speaker 2 22:04

Don't you think they often misunderstand gifted as being, you know, they they do really well in their marks. They think this is what a gifted student is. They're very organized, they're that kind of student that can be independent, where gifted tends to be someone they think outside the box, right? They think differently. Which means they often come with other things too, that maybe other learning needs that need support as well. Do you find that gifted kids often have those other learning needs that we forget about?

Speaker 1 22:30

Yes, they often need um help with specifically organization and and they need help with knowing how to show their work. Because many times they're like, well, I just know the answer. But then the problem comes where when they're shown a problem where they don't know how to solve it, they have no problem-solving skills because they're just used to doing it in their head and not needing to show their work. So they're not understanding their process of how they're solving problems.

Speaker 2 22:53

Aaron Powell Yeah. I mean, you think of the gifted people in history like Einstein, right? They were gifted. They didn't do so well in school, did they? Right? Because they thought differently, but they didn't fit into that box that sometimes we think they should go. So I agree.

Speaker 3 23:05

What are some of the challenges that classroom teachers face in trying to support gifted learners in the classroom?

Understanding Teacher Training Gaps

Speaker 1 23:13

Uh well, number one is that most aren't trained in knowing what to do. They they lack the uh they didn't get anything really in their undergrad. And then even the professional development that they do get while they are professional teachers is often not focused on what to do for high ability students. It's focused on a new reading intervention or a new their new strategic plan or the new school initiative, which often does not have anything to do with those high-ability students. And so we're asking them to complete a task that they haven't been trained in and that they don't feel comfortable with.

Speaker 2 23:43

And within that, so your teacher in the classroom got diverse needs. How do you balance that, meeting the needs of the high learners with those that are struggling in other areas? That that is the today's classroom is complex. And how do you meet all those needs?

Speaker 1 23:59

What's extremely complex because you you even if you teach fifth grade, you might have a student in your classroom who's reading at a first grade level, and then you might have a student who is ready to read at a college level in one classroom. And how are you supposed to meet all of those needs? And so what I often stress is to use pre-assessment data and just get a pulse on where your kids are your kids are at at the beginning of each unit. That way you can see, okay, these kids can be grouped, these kids can be grouped, and if you can get them in about four groups, four or five, uh, depending on your class size, and then you can go, okay, this, these are my main groups here. And if if I lessen my whole group instruction and increase my small group instruction time, then I can make sure that I have rotations going on in my room. So if kids are rotating around, I can still be meeting with all the students, but I know how to group them because I've pre-assessed them.

Speaker 2 24:54

And just to get a sense of life in North Dakota, what your typical primary class, what's kind of the average number of students you would have?

Speaker 1 25:01

Aaron Powell In in younger, we try to keep it like 16 to 18 students. Oh wow. Wow. Okay, so in primary, and then when they're in upper elementary, we can go up to like 28, 29, but that is very challenging if it's that many.

Speaker 2 25:14

Aaron Powell Those sound, I think, better than other parts of the U.S. Those are pretty good numbers, I would say.

Speaker 4 25:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2 25:20

In BC, it's the maximum number for primary is is for kindergarten it's 20, then it's 22 for up to grade three, and then intermediate up to grade seven if it's a split class, it's twenty-seven, and then twenty-nine if it's straight class. But I th like in today's world, I think class size matters, right? And it's when I hear those numbers.

Speaker 1 25:41

Yeah, and we're at a Title I building, and so that also impacts it when if you're higher in a higher poverty um environment, then it yeah, that's what we call Title I think. So Title I is what on school it means yes, you have a certain percentage of your students who are on qualify for free and reduced lunch. Um and so your needs are very diverse in in that kind of building. You often have higher needs schools, um higher behaviors, and so you just have a lot more support systems in place.

Speaker 2 26:06

Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Nice.

Speaker 3 26:10

How can parents best advocate for their high-ability uh child without creating unnecessary pressure on the child and the classroom teacher?

Balancing Diverse Student Needs

Speaker 1 26:21

Yes, I think number one is don't expect perfection from your child because you aren't perfect as an adult, and so it can be really hard to be constantly moving the goalpost and moving the expectations higher and higher for your child. Um and so when approaching the teacher, I would just first ask and say something like, um, how is my student doing in the classroom? How are they? Are they showing growth? Because if you ask it as are they showing growth, not are they showing proficiency, then that shifts the conversation into what is happening so that my child is growing. And if they're unsure, you could even ask the administrator and say, What supports do you have in place for students who are showing high abilities? And if they use a broad term like, well, the classroom teachers differentiate, I would ask further questions and say, Well, how are they differentiating? Because the term differentiation is thrown around. But like we've said earlier, just because you can say the word doesn't mean you need you necessarily know how to do it.

Speaker 2 27:20

Right. Yeah. Um, do you find a lot of gifted students tend to be underachievers when they don't feel their supports are being met? Like they bec they they realize the classroom is just too structured and too focused and too for the middle that if you don't recognize their needs, they just kind of put their hands up and don't present to themselves or present to you as the teacher all they can actually do.

Speaker 1 27:43

Yeah, and sometimes it's hidden underachievement where you don't actually know that they're underachieving because the task you're giving them doesn't have a high enough ceiling. And so they aren't even able to show show you or have the opportunity to show you how high they are or what they're capable of or what their thinking level actually is.

Speaker 2 28:00

So let's dive into that. So elevating standards you use at. What do you what do you mean by that?

Elevating Standards in Education

Speaker 1 28:05

Yeah, so I thought of elevating standards as my kind of my main baseline of what I teach when I work with teachers, because standards are something that all teachers use regardless of your grade level, regardless of your subject area, you have standards that you're expected to meet. And so I thought, okay, how can I create something that's feasible for all teachers, regardless of what they teach? And so they start with their standard, and then the next thing that they do is split their standard into nouns and verbs, because that helps them really simplify what the standard is asking. So I'm gonna read a standard out loud, and it says compare and contrast the adventures and experiences of characters in stories during or after a shared or text listening experience. That is so long. I call that word salad. Because when you are reading that standard, you're like, what am I even reading here? Education's filled with it, right?

Speaker 4 28:56

Yes.

Speaker 1 28:57

So you're reading this first grade standard, you're expected to teach that. So if I simplify it into what are the verbs and what are the nouns, I can say the verb is compare and contrast, and the nouns, the main nouns are adventures, experiences, and characters. So then I can simplify that and say, all right, the first grade expectation is that they can compare and contrast plot and they can compare and contrast characters. Now I've simplified it. And I'd go, this is what my first graders are expected to do. Now my next question is, how can I add additional thinking to that? So that I can choose what I want that additional thinking to be. Maybe I want them to find patterns between plot and characters. Maybe I want them to find patterns but of specific problems that we're finding, or patterns in the ending of stories. And then in North Dakota, we have really long winters, and so maybe we might have a winter-themed story analysis. And how are problems the same in winter stories? Or what's the perspective that you often see in winter-themed stories? Or how does change, what kind of changes occur in winter-themed stories? So you can tack on additional layers while keeping the same foundation and keeping the same standard in place.

Speaker 3 30:10

Yeah. Okay. And how do you build um choice and autonomy into uh designing the learning standards for for students?

Incorporating Choice and Autonomy

Speaker 1 30:20

Yeah, what's really hard when we say, well, we're gonna do a bunch of choices, and it ends up kind of turning into how many fun projects can we do? And and it turns into things that kind of have lower level thinking. So if they say, like, well, one of your choices is going to be to design a word search, or one of these is going to be to do a diorama, but it's just kind of recall information that they're asked to do. So if you keep your choices aligned to what your new elevated standard is, so if you are now finding patterns among change um within winter-themed stories, then you might say, okay, you can do some writing that um copies the patterns that you are noticing, or you can do a speech about it, or you can create um a picture or a collage that replicates patterns. And so as long as the product matches the thinking, then you're on the right track. Or if you're just doing um, if you want to offer choice in a different way, and you say, okay, your job is to find patterns between these two stories, and you can offer like two winter-themed stories, two rainforest themed stories, and two um, you know, like um frog and toad. Like you could choose whatever stories you want, of course, but give them choice among the stories, but the prompt is still the same. Then that's offering intentional choice without it just turning into kind of fluff.

Speaker 2 31:40

Which happens when it's just pure choice, right? Sometimes teachers fall into that, right? It's just pure choice. Do what you want, and then you'll get 25 different ways of doing it, and they're not all the same quality, right? Or else didn't meet the needs, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 31:52

Yes, and this is a perfect example of teachers being told to do something without being trained how to do it. They're told, oh, you know, the next big thing is we have to offer student choice and autonomy, and they're like, okay, well, how do I do this? Because I don't have time to create 25 different projects. And then because they weren't trained on it, they let kids kind of choose, and then they end up getting low-level things because the students have free-for-all choice.

Speaker 2 32:16

Yeah. I mean, we've uh Roy and I have taught a combined 70 years. If you put it our teaching together, and you know, you'd get whiplash if you kind of see all the change that happens in education, right? You have to kind of just, okay, what are they really saying here? Get to the heart of it. And what does what what does it mean in the classroom? How do you put that into action? And so often I think, especially sometimes new teachers hear all this stuff and they're going back and forth, changing, and they don't really know what it means. And I I feel for them that it needs to be laid out the way you just laid out, right? Yes.

Speaker 1 32:44

Yes, because if something is too open-ended, I I just, you know, if something's too open-ended, you're gonna get crap. And so sometimes you just really need to give specifics and you need to give examples. Because too often when teachers are trained, they'll say, Well, we don't want to tell you exactly how to do this because we want, you know, teaching is an art. You need to use your creativity. Yeah, but if you give me nothing, I don't have a baseline to go off of.

Speaker 2 33:08

Yeah. So lesson planning, how do we build engaging lesson plans from elevated standards? And I know you've talked about including AI that can save time while enhancing instruction.

Leveraging AI in Lesson Planning

Speaker 1 33:20

Yes. So when I I start with what my learning objective is. Once I have my learning objective, then I can use AI and I can say something like, hey, this is my learning objective, or if you even have trouble creating elevated learning objectives, you can use AI to help you with that. And you can say, This is my baseline standard. Um, and I would like to add a thinking lens of perspective onto this. Give me a new learning objective that applies perspective. And you can just ask it to do something like that. Or I can say, here is my learning objective, here are my standards, create a 30-minute lesson plan that ties into this. And I like to include specifics into my lesson plan. Like I would say, I want you to specify my objective, my thinking focus, a specific activity that kids could use, include an assessment that I can use. And sometimes your activity is your assessment. So you don't need to create something else entirely. You just see what the students end up with, and that's your informal assessment. And then you can also incorporate some kind of reflection question at the end. And if you add in those pieces to AI, then it it gives it a strong baseline to start with, and then it can give you a good output for what your lesson plan could look like.

Speaker 3 34:28

So are there uh any areas of of AI that you see um the that you're concerned about in using AI as a teacher or in developing uh learning plans?

Speaker 1 34:43

As a teacher, I use it all the time, specifically because I'm the only gifted educator in my school. And so I don't have other people to collaborate with. I don't have a team. Even though there are other gifted educators in my district, there are some districts where there's one gifted educator for the entire district. And so they don't have a collaborative partner, and so I use AI as my collaborative partner. And I use it for a lot of different things. Now I don't have my students use it. Sometimes if they're looking up information, they'll see like the AI overview on Google, which is also fine because that's a synthesis of information, and then we can look and see where the sources came from and does it make sense. The only thing that I would say as a caution is you always need to proof what it's giving you. And you need to give your own voice to what it's giving you because it gives it gives great ideas, but you can also make it your own.

Speaker 2 35:30

Yeah. I think using AI as a tool as an educator is is good because I mean, if if you put the thought into it, because it's just like having someone work for you, right? And we don't all have a staff of ten, and sometimes it's nice to have a staff of ten. What I worry about is when it's get overused for students in the classroom. And I I've heard of classrooms that exactly will have uh they'll use AI in their grade four class to have the students brainstorm ideas for their stories. And I think that might take away the cognitive ability of those students to come up with their own ideas, even though those ideas might be, you know, comic book heroes and sports stars, not as original, but I I th I'd rather the kids go through that painful process of generating their own ideas than offloading it to AI when they're not at that point where they did all the steps to get to using it only as a tool. Right.

Speaker 1 36:15

Right. And I'm okay with the let's say um I have them brainstorm first. I haven't done this in my classroom, but I might have them brainstorm first and then use AI second and f to give them additional ideas on top of what they originally thought of, and then say like you would need to combine one idea with another, or you're allowed to choose two from one list and and two from your own. Give them some kind of parameters where they can combine ideas because there is something to be said about using um using it to help you generate ideas, but it's something else entirely to have it do all of the thinking for you.

Speaker 2 36:49

Absolutely. Thanks for that. I appreciate that input. Um, primary learners, which is kind of your focus. Can you share some practical approaches for learning stations, higher level reading, comprehension, and integrating thinking skills for K-2 gifted students?

Practical Approaches for Primary Learners

Speaker 1 37:02

Yes. So when you're working with primary, it's easy to kind of feel a little bit afraid of what could they do because sometimes they have really high thinking, but their writing skills aren't really there yet. And so that's totally okay if the teacher is the one doing the writing and the students are the one doing the thinking. And so if you're asking them higher level questions, it's okay that they don't have to do writing for all of their output. You can be the one recording what it is that they are telling you. Um, you can also do something where you're using similar graphic organizers that, you know, if you have your beginning, middle, end graphic organizer, you can just add one extra column to that graphic organizer called like change or perspective. What are some perspectives of the beginning and the middle and the end? What are some changes that happened at the beginning and the middle and the end and giving them an additional layer to think about? So you're not having to create something else entirely and you're using something that they're already familiar with in the classroom. I would also say, especially in in younger grades, they like to do learning stations. You don't need to differentiate every single learning station. If you have one learning station is read to self or reading on your own, you can keep that and they could read on their own, and then you differentiate when they're working with you at your table. I also like to tell my young students that I don't, actually I tell all my students that I don't care about their spelling. Not because I don't think knowing how to spell isn't important, but too many times their obsession with everything being spelled correctly is getting in the way of their output. They're so worried about the spelling of the word that they're worried about they're they're changing the words that they would write because they want everything to be spelled perfectly.

Speaker 2 38:36

Aaron Powell Alicia, are you familiar with something called story workshop?

Speaker 1 38:40

I am not.

Speaker 2 38:50

Then they have to say it o out loud, and then they learn to write it down. And I think it uh it just allows the process of the ideas to come out and to brainstorm in a way that is physically concrete. And I think that's something she raves about. So I hear it from her all the time.

Speaker 1 39:04

Oh wow. Yes, that's great. To say it before you write it. That's that yes, that's an excellent tactic. And something else that um this is a very old curriculum. It's it's not necessarily it's a thinking skills curriculum. It's called Pets Primary Education Thinking Skills, and it's a widely used program in the United States for sure. And it takes you through a kindergarten book. The kindergarten book is not very robust, but then starting in the first grade book, it introduces these different animals that are characters that have different thinking styles. So you have Dudley the detective, he's really good at um using convergent thinking and solving used based on logic. And then you have Sybil the scientist, who's really good at convergent thinking too, but she likes to analyze and find patterns. And then you have Jordan the judge, he's good at evaluative thinking, he's an owl, and he's good at using and then you have, you know, you have um Isabel the inventor and Yolanda who is a spider who's really good at storytelling. So anyway, you introduce these characters, and these kids really latch on to these characters. And so if I'm teaching primary, I might use a certain standard and then think of what character I can tie to that standard to spark a certain kind of thinking. So when the kids come into my room, I might say, Today we're gonna think about beginning, middle, and end, and we're going to try to find patterns. Who's really good at f good at finding patterns? Sybil, the scientist, is good at finding patterns. We're gonna think, we're thinking like Sybil today. And then the next time they come in and go, Yolanda is so good at writing stories. And so today you're gonna write your own winter themed story, just like Yolanda. And so if you can tie the character to the standard and how you want the kids to think, they get engaged and they're like, Yes, I'm gonna be really good at this.

Speaker 3 40:41

Nice. Good. Um Alicia, what uh what advice would you give a teacher who is sort of um not sure or unprepared to support uh high uh high learning uh gifted uh students in the classroom?

Advice for Teachers Supporting Gifted Students

Speaker 1 40:59

Yeah, I would say um my number one recommendation is to find things to read on it. There are lots of books that have been written. Now, I know you might we might say teachers don't have a lot of time for that, but I learn so much from the things that I've read that I would never not recommend reading. Yeah, absolutely. Find some literature out there on it, that's what I would say. But I would also say advocate for yourself in your building. Ask for PD on that topic. Ask your administrator and say, hey, I would really like some professional development on how to differentiate for my high ability students. I'm really wanting to know more about this. I think this would be valuable for our staff. Um, how could we find some kind of professional development on this? And if even if that's a no, then I would say find somewhere to start in your classroom. You don't need to start everywhere. Pick the subject area that you feel most passionate about. So if you really like writing instruction, figure out ways to do it with writing instruction. How can you make something more open-ended in the writing experience? Or with math. Maybe you want to start differentiating in math first and using pre-assessments in math. Maybe you're not using any pre-assessments. You go, okay, well, if anything, I'm just going to pre-assess in math this year. That way I can get really used to at least the process of pre-assessing and give yourself grace that you don't need to do everything all at once, but find the area that you that uh you feel most comfortable with.

Speaker 2 42:20

I really like when I looked at your website where you talked about math, and one of the things was to give the hard questions first, right? Yes. Start with those first. That's true.

Speaker 1 42:28

Start with the most difficult first because too many times we have students who are advanced do all and more. And that that's going to make a student not wanting to do well. Why would you want to? Why are you giving me more? Yeah. So start with the most difficult. And I when I was student teaching in middle school, I did this and I told them at the beginning of the lesson, I'm going to ask you the most difficult problems first. And if you can do them, you are exempt from the rest of the assignment. And that automatically got everybody in the class more focused during the lesson because they were like, yes, I'm going to do less work here.

Speaker 2 42:59

Yeah. So often, you know, you're a high achiever and you just end up getting more work. Yes. Right?

unknown 43:06

Yes.

Speaker 2 43:06

Who wants to do that? It didn't help you. Right? Yes. So you're going to learn to underachieve, aren't you? It's going to be human nature.

Speaker 1 43:12

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It would be like telling a teacher, you're so good at teaching, you have to do your lesson plans and the person next to you's lesson plans.

Speaker 2 43:19

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And we'll give you 10 extra students, right? So Alicia, if people want to know more about you, where can they go to learn? Because you're so enthusiastic about this. It really shows and we appreciate that. And where can we find more out about you?

Speaker 1 43:32

Aaron Powell Well, you can go to elementaryelevated.com. From there, you can subscribe to content from me. Every Monday morning I send out some kind of differentiation notes. Sometimes I use my elevated standards planning tool, and I just put different thoughts I have about different ways that you can differentiate in your classroom. And I try to vary the grade levels so that it's applicable to all audiences. And then you can also email me at elementaryelevated123 at gmail.com.

Speaker 2 44:00

Thank you. And we'll put that on our website, SnuckBrothers.ca as well, so people can find you. So thank you so much for this. We really appreciate you taking the time to come on after the bell.

Speaker 44:08

Yes, of course.

Speaker 3 44:10

Thank you. Have a great day.

Speaker 44:11

You too.

Wrap Up With Roy and Martin

Speaker 2 44:16

Well, that was a nice visit to North Dakota. Yes, it was. Lisa Schrader shook and I enjoyed that conversation very much.

Speaker 3 44:22

I'm glad we didn't have to drive. Uh so it was fast.

Speaker 2 44:26

Yeah.

Speaker 3 44:26

And uh I really enjoy looking at uh other approaches to the the way things are done. Absolutely. Uh we I have the lens of a teacher from North Vancouver, how we work with our gifted students in the classroom and outside of the classroom. As I talked about before, we would have zone meetings for our gifted learners. Um Alicia talked about their high-ability learners, and they don't have a document that follows that student. Some schools have people who work with gifted students or high-ability learners, and then some schools don't. So it it's it's interesting that the approach the approaches can be different, but what it comes down to fundamentally is we're trying to meet the needs of our students.

Speaker 2 45:16

Yeah, trying to differentiate as we use that word, right? Yes, trying our best. But some people will say it's not possible anymore, right? So we know we're the talking heads now, right? We bring in the talking heads, but we don't have to put into practice. So we always ask our listeners, share what it's like for you, right? What do you feel about gifted and high ability learners? Is it working? Are there things that could change? How could you best meet their needs? So you know we want your comments. Go to stuntbrothers.ca, wherever we post in our Facebook After the Battle group, on TikTok, wherever you see us, we're all over the place. It's annoying almost everywhere you turn. There they are. Let us know, right? And don't forget to give us a rating when you listen to our podcast. Give us a rating on Spotify Apple. We really grow when we have people who go on and give us a rating. Yeah. But I like the idea of going around the world and just going, this works, that works. Don't want to do that. Nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 3 46:14

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I mean, that's how you can get the best assessment of how to meet the needs uh of anyone. It's not just one thing, that's uh multiple different uh multiple approaches to finding ways to support those, in this case, the students. I would love to hear about the successes that teachers have had in providing for gifted learners in the classroom. Have you done gifted students just together as a group? Have you d provided opportunities for leadership in a group? Really, the feedback is what really would give us some great opportunities to to discuss this more.

Speaker 2 46:58

Aaron Ross Powell And have you tried what Alicia talked about was like at math, for example, giving the the harder questions first? No. Right? Not such a bad idea to kind of do that first and see their abilities.

Speaker 3 47:08

But then what do they do? Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. I could see someone say like what? You give them the harder questions first and they answer the 10 questions, and then what do I do?

Speaker 2 47:16

Well hopefully you got a bit of a challenge for them to work on, right? Rather than just more work that they see as something going, why would I want to do just extra questions? Right? So that's the balance and that's the challenge, and we know you're faced with it every day. So thank you, Alicia, for coming on After the Bell. We really appreciate it. And thank you, listeners, for continuing to support us. And we want to hear from you. So chime away, let us know what you think. Stay healthy, stay happy, stay fit, and we'll talk to you next time on After the Bell.

Speaker 3 47:46

And give us a rating. Yes.

Speaker 2 47:47

Take care. Bye. This podcast is organic, taking shape with each episode. Hmm. Building resiliency for teachers everywhere.

Speaker 3 47:56

That sounds great.

Speaker 2 47:57

And our website is stuntbrothers.ca.

Speaker 3 47:59

That's stuntbrothers.ca.

Speaker 2 48:02

We will chat again.

Speaker 3 48:04

After the bell.