Stunt Summer Sessions #8: A Return To Walled Garden Education

In Episode 81, the Stunt Brothers have a discussion about how much gas is left in the tank of summer and how teachers love collecting things during their travels for their classrooms. Our duo then share some of the unique collectibles they accumulated throughout their careers, including Martin’s confession that he literally had a skeleton in his closet until he retired! Later, Martin talks about the importance of outdoor learning and the growing shift toward using analog materials over digital screens in the classroom. This sets up Martin’s #2 pick for the Summer Series, Episode 55: Talking Walled Garden Education With Andrew Cantarutti. In this episode, Andrew shares insightful ideas on how children learn best and how schools can foster focus, curiosity, and deep thinking in a screen-saturated world. Sit back and enjoy this thought-provoking discussion!

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Transcript

Speaker 3 0:05

Good afternoon, podcast listeners everywhere. Welcome to After the Bell, a Stunt Brothers production.

Speaker 0:11

I'm Martin Stuible. And I'm Roy Hunt, and we share your pain, having taught a combined 70 years. 70 years. I know. Wow. So get out your marking, organize your supplies, or just pour yourself a coffee. I think I need something stronger. That's okay. Okay. And listen, engage, and interact with After the Bell, a podcast for you, the hardworking, dedicated teacher who wants free lesson plans, free advice, and a free meal.

Speaker 3 0:36

Well, I always show up for a free meal. So, Mr. Hunt.

Speaker 0:42

August 17th.

Speaker 3 0:45

Didn't we didn't we just start the summer? Is it over already? What? Almost over. No, it's not. No, don't go there. Don't. No, there's still there's still gas in the tank. But you know, some people probably are going back in the class already. They're already planning things, we know. And you you probably even in August and July you were you were at the store at the seashore and you saw, I can use this in the class, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1:07

You collected that driftwood on the beach. I know I need this. Or you were walking along a lake and you saw sticks that were chewed on by a beaver. All the bark is off, and they have the great little almost like a pyramid end to each stick. It's perfectly chewed.

unknown 1:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1:27

And then all the bark is off. You said, oh that would be great in my class.

Speaker 3 1:31

When I retired and I went through my stuff, I found the skull of a seagull that I put in a box that I had found one summer. I had found it on the beach, maybe Ambleside. And thought, that would be cool. I could use that in the class.

Speaker 1:46

Yes.

Speaker 3 1:47

For some reason I transported it from school to school. I don't think I ever brought it out better to have as a show or to explain some science behind it. But I carried that with me for 35 years.

Speaker 1:59

Trevor Burrus Well, the the the class that I left when I retired from Ridgway had those beaver sticks that I talked about. So it was a personal summer experience for me. And the teacher kept them. They're still there. But I remember having this giant moose antler in my classroom. And it was uh at least, I'm going to say, uh about a 12-point antler. Yeah. It was huge. I carried it out of the woods with me. And I know some people say you should leave it in for the animals. But I didn't.

Speaker 3 2:30

Aaron Powell You thought they were cool.

Speaker 2:31

Trevor Burrus I thought it was cool. I thought it was good science for the classroom.

Speaker 3 2:34

What I love about this, whether it's, you know, the skull of the seagull, the moose antlers, it's kind of that analog classroom.

unknown 2:41

Yes.

Speaker 3 2:41

It's getting away from technology.

Speaker 2:43

Right.

Speaker 3 2:44

And I I feel as we've done this podcast, we've started to drift towards maybe, you know, we're the summer we've been working on a book to do with the analog classroom. We've been getting ideas, and we we always wanted to have a guest on, like Jonathan Hayde or Cooney Corbath, who have talked about the impact of technology on kids, and clearly it's not so great.

Speaker 3:05

And there's a lot there was a lot said about it this year. Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.

Speaker 3 3:09

And so I feel us as we've shifted hearing, we talked to Victor about getting outside, Tina Parker about play outside. I think it has gravitated towards kind of how we are seeing the damage that too much technology can do. And we we love technology at its certain level and when it's a tool, but I think it's gone too far. So we've gravitated towards that. So we were always looking for a guest. And we you know, this summer we've been going through our top five podcast episodes. This is my number two. So we're now at my number two. And it was when we had Andrew Cantrudy on. Yes. And he talked about walled gardens. It was episode uh 55 from last season. And he just had a he's an Ontario thinker, educator, a writer, and he really got us thinking about what a classroom really is. And does it have to just because AI exists, do we have to jump on that? Just because cell phones exist, do we have to bring them into the class? Like you know, in in Vancouver, they're bringing AI more and more into the classroom already. And there's actually a group of parents who I would love to have one of them on as a guest, um, because they they are on CBC and they're kind of pushing back. They're part of this group that says, whoa, let's just slow down a little bit.

Speaker 4:19

And especially the age at which they're exposing uh students. I think in in the Vancouver they were talking as as young as six and seven, possibly.

Speaker 3 4:29

I mean kids kids have enough technology, so it's not like we're they're gonna fall behind, but I but I think they're gonna fall behind if they don't have enough analog things in their life. Yes. And that was opened up, and this idea of this was opened up when we had Andrew Cantarudi on. So let's have a little repackage of that episode.

Speaker 4:45

It was a good one.

Speaker 3 4:46

If you've heard it, you'll enjoy it again. If you haven't heard it, it's a chance to hear from Andrew and really get the conversation going on analog classrooms and what classrooms should really be about.

Speaker 4:59

This is uh bit of a departure for Martin and I. We do our podcast and it's audio, but today it's a video. And we usually start off our podcast with uh STS, the shoot the shit, where Martin and I talk about some things, but we're gonna go straight to it. Let's straight to it. So I'd like to say welcome to After the Bell. And today we're joined by Andrew uh Cantaruni, uh a Canadian teacher and writer who has spent more than 10 years working in classrooms in Canada and around the world. Andrew thinks deeply about how children learn and how schools can better support focus, curiosity, and meaningful thinking, especially in a world full of screens and distractions. He's the creator of Walled Garden Education, where he explores simple but powerful ideas about how classrooms can become calm, supportive places that help students slow down, pay attention, and truly learn.

Speaker 3 5:52

Yeah. And Andrew, I was really excited when I discovered you. I think it was Substack. Um you had a great column there, and you you have a newsletter there, and then we heard you on um the Teachers on Fire podcast as well. Right. So we got to learn more. And we've been looking for a guest just like you. You know, I've done I've read Jonathan Hayde, I've read Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath, right, and got some of his ideas. And then I heard what you had to say, and it was a Canadian perspective, and it was just bang on with what we've been talking about. Yeah. So we're really excited about this opportunity. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1 6:21

Yeah. Well, I'm really I really appreciate uh being held in that company. That's uh very kind of you guys. Yeah.

Speaker 3 6:27

No, and you definitely you are equally to them, and you're gonna have a great career bringing these ideas forward. So thank you very much.

Speaker 1 6:34

Thank you very much.

Speaker 3 6:35

So we'll start with our ABC one, two, three, where we kind of get to know our guest, and we'll start Roy with uh ABC. ABC.

Speaker 2 6:42

Okay.

Speaker 3 6:42

All right.

Speaker 6:43

A chalkboard or smart board.

Speaker 1 6:48

Ooh. Um I think we you know what, we have to go with smart board. There's just it's just so much more capable. There's so much more you can do with it. There Yeah.

Speaker 6:56

Okay, okay, okay. Uh B, deep dive into one idea or a broad tour of many.

Speaker 1 7:06

One idea. Um I think it's important to remember that uh focusing on multiple things at a time is something of a myth, actually. We can only hold one idea in our head at a time. And I think it's important to remember that.

Speaker 3 7:20

We were told that was the way to operate. Like a lot of things we discover, they're actually a myth, right? We can switch between things really rapidly, but the only one thing you're doing.

Speaker 7:30

That's right.

Speaker 1 7:31

And C questions or answers? Uh questions. Always questions, right? We always have to be asking why.

Speaker 3 7:40

Yeah, I agree. Okay, one, two, three. What was your favorite book as a child? Did you have one? And if you did, can you share?

Speaker 1 7:48

I would have to go with the Lord of the Rings. I love the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Speaker 3 7:52

Yeah. Classic. Yep. Do you do you re-reread it once in a while? Oh, absolutely, all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 7:58

Yeah.

Speaker 3 7:59

You just find out something worn in each time, don't you? Every time. Yeah. Okay, number two. Do you have a favorite teacher from your own childhood that had an influence on you? And would you like to share if you did?

Speaker 1 8:09

Sure. I mean, there's there's several teachers that had a huge impact on me growing up. Um, but one of my favorite teachers was a woman named Miss Foch. Okay. And uh she taught uh me a world religions class uh when I was in the 11th grade here in Ontario. And it was kind of a tour of uh the major world religions and the philosophies that ground them. And uh and I thought the diverse perspectives were super valuable and it encouraged me to travel in in my adult life. So uh yeah, really wonderful one.

Speaker 3 8:44

I've always thought there's so much you can learn from that. And that you don't have to be a religious person, but it gives you a grounding of where we came from in so many ways, because it has driven our history and understand the religions of the world, I think, creates greater understanding among humans. Absolutely. And then number three, if there was one piece of music that you you had to listen to, you're on a deserted island. You don't have to listen to this all day long, but when you do, when you're tired of watching the sharks circle the island, what is there one piece that you would choose?

Speaker 1 9:13

Aaron Ross Powell Oh, that's a hard question, Martin. I think I would have to go with um let's go with Let It Be by the Beatles.

Speaker 3 9:24

You know, you talk you know So that was my song at school. Oh yeah. I would do it every year in Remembrance Day with my class. And on the very last year when I retired a year and a half ago, the whole school did Let It Be for me. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Oh, amazing. There you go. There you go. Yeah, it's a classic. Well, thank you, Andrew. And uh we're gonna get into your walled gardens and some of your ideas of the idea of what schools can be. But before that, would you be able to share your journey, like what brought you to this way of thinking? Maybe where did you come from in terms of some of the teaching and experiences you've had? Share as little or as much as you'd like.

Speaker 1 10:03

Sure. So uh before you hit record, we were talking a little bit about how we've all three been to Jeju Island in Korea. And I had the privilege of living there for four years. And while I was there, I was I lived there in the late 20 teens, and uh I had a couple of jobs while I lived there. But one of the jobs was that I worked in a boarding program at an international school, and uh I managed a middle school boys' uh boarding house. So you can imagine that that was a handful. Um but yeah, for sure. Um, but it was really interesting. When I first arrived, it was like this very regimented program um in that the kids kind of came home at the end of the day, and then there was a little bit of free time. But we went to dinner, they had like a very, very regimented homework block, and then they came home, and then there was kind of a lights out uh time at the end of the night. Um, but the the thing about it was that it was like a really kind of sterile experience for the kids. Um, they had a free for all with respect to access to their technology. So they would come home at the end of the day, and everybody immediately grabbed their phones or their laptops and they would they would game for a couple of hours, right? Yeah, and then they'd go to dinner, and then they spent a couple of hours on screens doing their homework, and then they came home again, and then they spent some more time gaming before going to bed. Uh, and then a couple of years later, me and a and a few other uh employees kind of tried to change things a little bit. And so we introduced uh a lot more structure to their schedule in that they came home at the end of the day, they had to check in their technology, they weren't allowed to use their phones or their laptops, but they could sign up for various activities. So the kids could go out to the field, which was supervised, they could play soccer, they could go to the gym and play basketball. We offered like cooking classes, one of the other boarding houses usually offered uh a movie that everybody could watch together, right? Yeah, but it was all without access to their phones. So the kids had to socialize together, they had to connect, and they had to develop, you know, common, they had these common experiences that they could uh that they could bond over. And by the end of the year, they had just developed such an incredible connection to one another, one another. And for my boys, it just became this brotherhood, a kind of like family. And when they had to leave at the end of the school year, they were excited to go home to their families and have the time off, but they were often tears because they uh they had they were just so close to one another that uh they were they were prepared to miss one another quite a bit, quite a bit, right? So um, so that was one of the big eye-opening experiences for me is like when we remove that like five hours of additional screen time in their home lives, um, the quality of their social bonds just expanded to a degree that they hadn't had prior prior to that.

Speaker 3 13:01

Roy, we before we started talking, you spent time in Jeju Island, right? Yes. Yeah. And I know I hiked Halasan. Have you hiked up Halasan?

Speaker 1 13:10

About a dozen times more than that.

Speaker 3 13:12

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was the difference, it was I think it was like minus three at the top. But uh my friend who was teaching in Korea at the time, that's who we were visiting. He uh it was one of those moments that you talk about connecting, because my son graduated from high school and we had these three months together backpacking through Southeast Asia. And it was you know, we're talking no phones, no cell phones, nothing, just doing something and having experiences that he just turned 30 uh a few months ago. And you just have this connection. And there was a moment when he fell asleep on the train. We were in Indonesia, and I actually started to tear up. Because I looked at him, I thought, I'm never gonna have this again. Like I was just so grateful for that moment, that human connection that I think technology pushes away sometimes.

Speaker 13:54

Those opportunities that you have sometimes when you say to your family, we're gonna go camping, uh, we're gonna go backpack and we don't need any of our devices, and you hear grumbling about that, then you go. And then it's those connections that you're uh that you're talking about with those students. You don't have your device, and you're talking about the things that are in front of you. You're sharing a common experience. The food tastes better, the environment looks better, and your your senses, you're more sensory or those are those connections, and those are meaningful connections that they they run the test of time. Absolutely. You know, just on a phone.

Speaker 1 14:32

I mean, the phone the phone has this way of it's almost as if when it's tethered to you, when it's in your pocket, it's like putting blinders on sometimes, right? And like you said, with respect to being sensor engaged in a sensor a sensory way, um Roy, um, when we don't have it with us, we just see and experience the world differently. Um, whether that be through the eye contact and the laughter and and the smile that you see on on other others' faces, sometimes we don't notice these things when we're so easily distracted by that vibration in the pocket, right?

Speaker 3 15:07

Yeah. And I'll get I'll let Roy get into the walled gardens concepts. But just when you talk about that, like I know myself now, even because I love to read, and I I have to put my phone in another room now. Like even, you know, I can talk about everybody and look down upon them, but I'll have my pile of books, and if I have that phone next to there, you know, I'll read something in a book and I'll go, I gotta look that up. Something little but the moment I pick up that phone, it's 20 minutes later that I've now checked the notification, gone here, gone down some rabbit hole. And it's we're all weak. We're all weak with that. For sure. For sure.

Speaker 1 15:38

Yeah, of course. Of course. And you know, you know, that's difficult for us as adults, so we can imagine what that's what that's like for a developing mind, right? It's even more challenging. Exactly. Yeah. So take it away.

Speaker 15:48

Okay. So uh Andrew, could you tell us about what uh you mean by walled gardens and why the idea is so important right now in education?

Speaker 1 15:58

Yeah, sure. So I I I kind of came to the idea of a walled garden education um by thinking about some of the problems that we have in our educational environments today. And I and I always wanted to deal with those problems and diagnose them, but not leave it at a diagnosis. I kind of wanted to think of what an ideal alternative might look like. Because I, you know, there's a lot, people we read op-eds all the time about the problems that we see in in education today, uh, whether that be in higher ed or in primary and secondary. And too, too um infrequently um do we see solutions. And so I thought to myself, what is it that kids need today? Because the conditions for in child for childhood development have changed, right? They're no longer what they looked like 20 or 30 years ago. Um, and so when I think about a walled garden, I I think that the the walls are there not to exclude the rest of the world, um, but rather they're there to create the conditions within the walls for the desired growth that you want to see against competing forces, right? And that's kind of what I I hope to see in schools. We want to create the conditions within the walls of the school that allow for the developmental conditions that kids need to grow.

Speaker 17:24

Mart and I have combined 70 years plus of teaching experience, but I would say in the last uh at least 10 years we've noticed we noticed a change. We noticed that there was something going on in the classroom. We couldn't, when we had our discussions, we couldn't put our finger on it. And it's kind of like my analogy is when you're driving a car and you turn off the music and you turn off the air, you know, the the air and everything, and you just try to listen to see how things are going. Right? And you know there's something there, but you can't pinpoint it.

Speaker 1 18:05

Where's the noise coming from, right now?

Speaker 18:07

Yeah, there's there's a squeak or there's something, but you can't is that the left side of the car or the right side of the car? Yeah, but there's something there. And and and that's the frustrating part because you you want to alleviate that squeak. You want to fix that squeak, but where where is it? And and the what was exciting for me, and I think for ex exciting for us, is you sort of pointed a direction where that squeak might be. And I think that's the exciting part.

Speaker 1 18:37

Thanks, Roy. Yeah, I I think there's there's probably several squeaks. And uh, you know, many of us know what we know what some of the squeaks are, right? Like there they're sort of the um the perennial things to do with class sizes and access to resources and funding and so on and so forth. Um, but you know, there is something that had that is different in the past 10 or 15 years um that's worth acknowledging. And that's the kinds of technologies that we use, the way that kids use them, their access to them, and the in the role that they play in their development. And and I think that we haven't quite um we haven't quite assessed the consequences of that appropriately.

Speaker 3 19:24

Yeah. And I I mean the cell phone comes in 2007, right? Right. We're only now starting to go, oh, maybe we shouldn't have jumped into it. Maybe now like look Australia has a ban, parts of Canada are. So we're we're we we take this time to change, but it takes so long, and now AI comes along and suddenly we're all jumping on that again. Like we have to kind of reflect what's going out there in the world instead of thinking, well, will this make sense in the classroom?

Speaker 1 19:51

Right. Right. Right. And you know, with respect to smartphones, um most provincial jurisdictions in Canada now have enacted some kind of a smartphone restriction or a ban. Yeah. But even in those circumstances, I think most of us know that those are not being implemented successfully. It varies so much for it. It varies from so much from school to school. And so we have to still deal with that. And on top of that, you're right to say that AI is this new complicating factor. Um, that it it unfortunately seems like our approaches um look like they're replicating much of what we did around one-to-one device programs and smartphones. Uh, and we're kind of jumping on this without critically considering consequences, right?

Speaker 3 20:38

No, no.

unknown 20:39

Yeah.

Speaker 3 20:40

Can you talk about this marketplace mirror? Could you expand upon that more in terms of how we do jump on these things? Yeah. It's a fascinating concept, and then it's kind of bang on.

Speaker 1 20:49

Yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. So it's the term that I use to kind of describe what I feel like the last 15 years or so have looked like. So dating back to yeah, about two 2010, 2012-ish. Um, and it's kind of the approach that I think we take when we try to design our pedagogical techniques, how we how we design curriculum, and the technologies that we introduce in the classroom. So I think we we tend to look to the marketplace. We tend to look at the what's happening in the broader economy, and we say, how can we replicate that in schools and uh in an effort to prepare kids for the future, or or at least what the workplace is going to look like for them. And that's a really, I mean, it makes perfect sense. And I think it's perfectly rational to go about things that way. But unfortunately, one thing that we rarely consider when we adopt those techniques or we adopt these technologies is what kind of effect will they have on children developmentally, right? And that's the piece that's missing a little bit. Um, so you know, I I I've said it previously, and I'll say It here for you guys. I like to use this little little kind of comparison. You know, if I was to describe your average uh well-resourced high school classroom today, right? It might look like 20 to 30 students sitting at shared desks. Let's say they're working on um an uh they have a work block, they're working on an assignment. All of them are staring into some kind of a screen, right? They probably have headphones on or earbuds in. Um they're sipping from oversized Stanley tumblers. Um and so they're all kind of, they've got the blinders on, right? They're stare screen, they're doing their own thing. Um now if you missed the part where I said I was describing a high school classroom, you could be mistaken for thinking that I was describing your local Starbucks, right? Absolutely. And the the marketplace mirror is like it's what's happening in the rest of the world, and let's try and replicate that in schools.

Speaker 23:02

Yeah. So then what first drew your attention to uh uh attention as a central problem in uh schools?

Speaker 1 23:13

Well, I think you you read a lot of anecdotal reports from educators from primary through higher ed suggesting that attention is an increasing problem amongst kids. Um but the truth is that the research supports that as well. There's there's growing evidence. Uh at this point, I'd I'd call it a mountain of evidence that suggests that attention are a problem. Um there's sort of groundbreaking research by a uh researcher out of the University of California, Irvine, named uh Dr. Gloria Mark. And I have it written down here. So she did research suggesting that our attention spans, and this is not just for children, this is for everybody, um, on screens specifically, our attention spans were um were about two and a half minutes in length in in 2004, which actually doesn't sound that great. No. Uh and today, in the past several years, it's down to 47 seconds on average. And so if we're asking for kids to attend to a specific task, and that task is being mediated through a screen, we're really asking them to do something very, very, very challenging, especially if it's if we're dedicating half an hour for them to do something.

Speaker 24:31

Looking at things like sustained reading or uh being able to focus for a period of time. Uh, I know that his just recently that there's been the discussion, oh, the the students can't read chapter books. So what we'll do is we'll we'll get a a smaller book, or we'll get a two-page article, or we'll bring in graphic novels. Because I think ultimately teachers and parents they want to take away this sort of this anxiety or the frustrations that our students are feeling, that our children are feeling, but not truly understanding what is causing it, and then that by simplifying things for them, we're we're doing them a disservice.

Speaker 1 25:14

I think that's that's kind of um representative of our lowering of standards to meet the conditions of childhood today rather than addressing the conditions, right? Uh we're not addressing the root cause of those problems, we're simply reacting. And this is again a feature of the marketplace mirror model, is it's kind of a reactive, defensive approach to education. It's saying, what are the conditions that kids are learning in today? And how do we adjust our standards accordingly rather than adjusting the conditions so that we can elevate standards?

Speaker 3 25:52

I think it's part of that market mirror you talk about, because often we see, okay, kids, their attention span is so short, so now I have to change what I'm doing in my class to fit that. Where we forgot that learning is messy. It's really messy and it's hard work, right? And you think we have to we have to game gamify everything, right? Yeah, we have to meet all the kids. They can't have attention spans that are longer than that. But I found just a simple little thing where with my class, I did these Zen tangles. They're just you've got to really concentrate, right? And we would start to do it, and first they want to talk and stuff. I'd say, no, we're gonna do this, and eventually we would do it for an hour at a time. And these were this my last class was a grade four class, ten years old. It was you could hear a pin drop in there when we got through it. They learned to focus on that because they had to really watch and think about what they were doing. And then we would talk about how they felt after.

unknown 26:44

Yes.

Speaker 3 26:45

And they all said, Oh my god, Mr. Stubel, I I feel good. It was a bit like meditation to them, right? They had never they had never experienced that because they're filling their brains all the time with screens or doing things. It was a moment just to take a breath and relax. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1 26:59

I mean, Mr. Stubel, you gave them an opportunity to fall into a flow state, which is something that these kids rarely get to experience today. And increasingly adults have a hard time falling into flow states as well, right? Yeah.

Speaker 3 27:14

I've seen kids get picked up at school and they have maybe a a five, ten-minute drive home, and I see a screen instantly come down in front of them so they can watch something. You know? Boredom is important. We need to be bored. Yes. Yeah, it's crucial, in fact, right? And Einstein would have come up with anything without boredom, right?

Speaker 1 27:33

You need to be bored. Absolutely. That's where create creativity is born. Yeah.

Speaker 27:38

Well, and and it's interesting when you you get to a point where everybody starts to focus on something. Let's say in the classroom you're doing an activity and there are two or three students who come start complaining it's too quiet in here. That they're they're that they're unnerved by a state of calm, which is really i interesting. People are, you know, they're they're internally reflecting on what they're doing. There's a there's a uh a sense of groundedness, uh, there's a sense of regulation, and uh other students around feel dysregulated by the regulation that's around them.

Speaker 1 28:20

Right, right. And that speaks to their experiences, right? And what they're used to, you know. Um I write a little bit about how our libraries in most schools have become learning commons these days, right? We use the word library, yeah. Yeah, we don't even use the word library anymore. And and that's and appropriately so, because learning commons are different from libraries, right? They tend to be um, they tend to be collaborative spaces. They're not quiet, right? And they tend to be full of digital resources, right? And the thing is, that's important. Kids need opportunities to engage in spaces outside of the classroom that are collaborative, where there are access to resources, but they also need places and they need spaces that are quiet where they can uh contemplate and where they can concentrate without that additional stimulus. And it's sad today that in many schools there really aren't any spaces that afford that opportunity to kids anymore.

Speaker 3 29:21

You think in schools we've forgotten about the process and we're so worried about the product? That's why you know we'll use AI now to even generate our writing ideas.

unknown 29:29

Yeah.

Speaker 3 29:30

Because and you're right, those writing ideas might not be you know, a grade four Bob typically is gonna come with superheroes and comic strip characters, whatever. But it was his ideas that he had to work hard to get out. Now AI can generate this long list of things, but he didn't have to do that. He's now said to the AI, you're gonna do the work for me. And so we're now finished up on we're focusing on the end product. That might look fantastic, but really it's the process that we should focus on in teaching.

Speaker 1 29:57

Yeah. So I mean, if you if you go back uh 20 or 30 years and you think about assigning an essay in under those conditions, um, you know, we could focus on the product because the product was all about um how you communicate your argument, how you uh how you cultivate uh evidence to support your argument and how you uh arrange it logically, right? Um but the the happy byproduct of going through that process uh was that you developed your cognitive capacities, right? You had to struggle in a desirable way. We talk about there's researchers named uh Robert and Elizabeth Bjork who came up with this really landmark um uh theory of desirable difficulties, right? Which are um right in that zone of proximal development where it's challenging enough for a kid uh that they can overcome it, but not easy enough that they don't have to exercise some cognitive struggle, right? And today, if we are asking kids to complete that essay using a computer that has LLMs or AI available, um, that that cognitive effort is no longer guaranteed, right? There are kids who are still gonna do it independently and are gonna go through most of that struggle, but there are others that are gonna take some shortcuts, and then there's others that are gonna take the ultimate shortcut and get the AI to generate the whole essay, right? And if um they don't have the opportunity to do that heavy lifting in their own minds, then there's really no growth happening there. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 3 31:36

No. An analogy that I can think about that happened to me years ago was I used to always do a science fair in the class, right? And they would, when I started doing it, they would work on it at home. We'd kind of plan it in the class, but all the work would be at home. So when it came time for the science fair, half the class brought in these incredible looking things, half brought in ones that were done on poor little cardboards and were falling apart. But I knew which ones did it themselves. Yes. The half that looked great, most of them, their parents had done their project. Yeah, yeah. So they they were like the AI of the time, right? Right. So in the end, I decided we would just do everything in the class. Yeah. And the end products looked a lot messier. They weren't as neat, but I knew those kids had done it themselves, and that to me is the key here. They would they were struggling with it themselves, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 32:25

Yeah. So I I write about this and I call it so again, we talk about attention here, and I I've got this idea of a pedagogy of cultivated attention, right? Because attention is not something that we're just born with, right? It's actually a capacity that we can develop. And as educators, we have to be aware that that's kind of our role today in a way that it maybe wasn't 30 years ago. And so I like to use three questions that can kind of guide our thinking around this. So the first is what cognitive capacity should this lesson build? Um, because again, we can no longer take these things for granted. So, do we want to work on a student's executive function, right? Do we want to ensure that they can organize their thoughts, that they can schedule their work, all of those kinds of things? And if that's the case, maybe we need to encourage them not to rely on the reminder that comes from Google Classroom or whatever, uh whatever software you might use, but rather have them practice the skill of planning out their work week on paper, whatever, uh, or even digitally, but doing it themselves so that they can develop those skills or um, you know, their their working memory. Um the research suggests that writing by hand improves working memory in a way that read uh writing on or typing does not, right? So we have to think about that. The second question is what friction does the learning sequence deliberately introduce, right? So we were talking about how we can use these tools and they steal opportunities for kids to struggle with their own minds and to struggle cognitively in a productive way. So sometimes we have to actually deliberately introduce a little bit of friction for them in order to preserve that cognitive opportunity. And then the third is as you were saying, Martin, how will assessment capture process and thinking? And so in this, I like to talk about artifacts of attention, right? So this is kind of like if you're scaffolding an essay, you're probably gonna do the majority of the work today in class for the same reasons that you mentioned earlier. But the kids are gonna go through a very deliberate process of maybe um brainstorming their ideas on paper. Uh, maybe they're gonna do a rough draft on paper. Um, perhaps they'll annotate sources with with uh pen and paper as well. Uh they're gonna do some peer editing. And then at the end, when the final product is produced, all of those things get submitted along with the final product as evidence that they actually went through that that cognitive struggle in a productive way.

Speaker 35:14

Aaron Powell How does the scheduling of schools, right, are the periods, the breaks, the times for assessments, and how how does that take attention uh from our students in ways that we rarely question?

Speaker 1 35:27

Yeah, so that's a fantastic question, Roy. Our especially in high school environments, right? We we chunk school days into short blocks, and that can be difficult for kids because sometimes we're not conscientious of what's happening in one period and how it impacts the next. So to give an idea of what that might look like is um you mentioned Martin earlier, gamification, right? Um, so a super engaging tool that teachers like to use with their kids sometimes because it's fun, it's just kind of exciting, is something like Kahoot, right? Yeah where you might play that game at the end of the period in order to do some like little wrap-up or whatever. But the thing is, if you're doing a cahoot at the end of your period in like let's say it's your second period class, and in the next class they're going to English, and they they're expected to do 20 or 30 minutes of quiet reading independently. It's very, very, very hard for a student, right, to have this incredible stimulus that is cocoot with a fun teacher. Yeah, with a fun teacher, walk five minutes down the hall, right? And then you know, um read Shakespeare. You know, so and and we're and sometimes we don't think about that, but we but we need to.

Speaker 36:48

Yeah. Here's two tablespoons of sugar goat. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 3 36:54

That's right. Just to veer off a little in a different angle, just one of the things you brought up that I really this is why I think you're you're a standout thinker on this and up there with the greats from what I've read, just because you're one of the few that actually made this connection with AI and the climate. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yes. And the effect on climate. I would love you to get into that for our listeners, because that was just like, yeah. I why do we not hear more people talking about this aspect, especially when what you'll say is we teach kids about climate and what's coming. So tell us about that.

Speaker 1 37:24

Yeah. So AI, we we I think a lot of us are aware of the risks involved with AI and cognitive displacement and the sort of circumvention of effort like we've talked about. But we don't often talk about the environmental impact that comes with using these huge large language models in artificial intelligence. There is no digital technology in the world today that demands as much energy consumption as AI models do today. And um, we have to take that seriously because climate change is a huge issue. But in educational uh environments where climate change is an increasingly important part of our curricula, um, we're kind of talking out of both sides of our mouths when we're encouraging kids to use these tools for educational purposes, which is dubious for other reasons. Um, but also when we're trying to say, but you need to take the environment seriously, and your behavior matters around the environment. So uh I've got a couple of little stats that I think will be valuable to your listeners. Thank you. Um there's a uh there's a really great book by an author named Karen Howe, H A O, uh called Empire of AI. And she talks about a lot of these problems. And she often cites this report that came out last year by uh McKinsey. Um and it's about of a mouthful, so I might have to repeat it. But uh it's uh she states that the current rate of expansion of data centers that power uh AI as we use it today, um, would require in five years' time adding two to six times the amount of energy consumed by the state of California annually today to the electrical grid. Okay. So you would have to double to uh uh up to six times the amount of energy that California, the whole state, consumes today to the electrical grid in order to accommodate uh the growth of data centers today. And unfortunately, the pace at which we're building data centers outstrips um the rate at which we're building renewable energy sources. So we already know that those are going to be mostly served by fossil fuels. Um, there's also reports that say that um coal plants, which have been scheduled for decommissioning, are having their lives extended in order to accommodate this extra energy demand.

Speaker 2 40:02

Right.

Speaker 1 40:03

Uh and then the other factor with respect to the environment and AI is the water consumption because these data centers need to be um cooled using fresh water. Right. Um and typically they tap into public drinking water infrastructure in order to do so. And according to a report from Bloomberg, um, two-thirds of the data centers that are planned for um for construction today are planned for areas that are already grappling with water scarcity. Okay. And so, you know, those are just a couple of small statistics. There are others that are absolutely astounding. But again, when we're talking about using these for educational purposes, and then we're also saying to kids, by the way, take care of the environment and take it seriously. You know, I mean, we have to get more serious too. Yeah.

Speaker 3 40:55

So how do we get more serious? Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 40:58

I think we have to, yeah. I mean, I think we have to understand what the utility of these tools are for educational purposes. Uh, and the truth is that um we don't quite know yet. And what we're doing is much of what we did in the early 2010s with one-to-one device programs, which is this is a new thing. It's in the economy. People, it's going to change the economy, it's going to change the people, the way people work.

Speaker 3 41:24

And we're saying if we don't adopt it now, we're, you know, we won't we'll be left behind, right? Exactly.

Speaker 1 41:30

Exactly. But you know, there's a lot of um, there's a lot of irony in that statement because you know, the average 30-year-old professional who is making use of AI in the workplace today did not use AI during their primary and secondary educations, and yet they're managing.

Speaker 2 41:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1 41:51

Right. Right. Uh so that's one thing. Um, and then the other is um is that we we're only beginning to see research emerge on the effects of AI for educational purposes. So there was a recent study that came from MIT um that uh looked at uh adult users of AI. Uh they had a control group of people who didn't use AI and then they had to perform certain tasks, and then they had another group that did, and after afterwards, they uh tested them with respect to their their cognitive ability, and it showed that those who relied heavily on the AI in order to complete a given task showed measurable cognitive deficits as compared to those who hadn't. Um and then the other piece was that there was this literally came out um two weeks ago. There's a huge landmark report report on AI in education by the Brookings Institution in the States. It's like more than 200 pages in length. Okay. And the general um gist of that is there are potential benefits of AI in education, though we don't have narrow enough tools to guarantee those benefits right now. Um, but the risks uh just greatly overshadow the benefits at the moment. And so there is potential for AI to be beneficial in educational environments. But my general principle is why not be precautionary about it? Yeah. Why adopt the tool now before we know how to use it well and before the research actually supports its efficacy? Because if we are relying on it heavily today and it turns out to be damaging to kids, well, it's much, much harder to remove a tool that even teachers have gotten used to using than it is to never introduce it to begin with, right? Right.

Speaker 3 43:51

There's no harm in waiting, right? Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 2 43:54

Okay.

Speaker 3 43:54

And maybe later on we figure out, oh, this is how we could use it properly. Right. Exactly. This slowdown. There's never these breaks on these things. And I think.

Speaker 1 44:03

Well, and the point is, and you know what? Maybe we can't expect a break in the in the marketplace today. Maybe we can't, maybe that's too much to ask in the economy because it presents this competitive advantage. But we're talking about schools, right? We're talking about primary and secondary education. We're talking about children, right? Let's not take the risk there.

Speaker 44:25

Well, it's interesting because when we we see AI or productivity, we see that as uh providing us with a little bit of uh help. They're helpers for us, or they're helpers for us because we know how to use them. Um I think you used an analogy about uh, you know, uh you're gonna climb Mount Everest, right? Uh you know, and you think of all the things you need. You need your backpack, you need you need uh you might need oxygen, right? You need to have some physical training. But if you just put someone in a helicopter, put them on the top of Everest, then they they missed all of the the steps in between. So that process, that learning, all of that that happens. As teachers, when I can remember when someone said, you can use AI to help you with your report cards. All of a sudden, all the air was sucked out of the room because they're like, What? And and but teachers are using it as a tool to make their life easier. They're not using it to get it over with. And and we are our students don't have the capacity or the understanding to realize what they have when they put something in into a Chad GPT. Because when it comes out, it's all garbage in, garbage out, or what they say, oh, I'm done. Without taking any look at it, we say, oh, geez, this doesn't make sense at all.

Speaker 1 45:49

Aaron Powell We have to remind ourselves that we're we're role models for kids, uh, fundamentally, right? And that's one of the key roles that we play as teachers, is that we're modeling the kinds of behaviors we hope to see in kids ones one day. And we have to recognize that we expect certain responsibilities of our students, and that's that they work hard, you know, and that they try their best, even if their best um is is is is less than they would hope it is, right? But we want them to work their as hard as they can. Um, and they understand us to have certain responsibilities too. And so when I get an essay that's been written by a student and I go to AI to provide feedback, well, okay, that's a professional responsibility that my student knows that I have to complete. Um, and if I've shirked that responsibility, or if I've kind of offloaded that responsibility to AI, it's very hard for me to then come back to the student and say, but you're not allowed to use it in order to generate ideas for that essay, or you're not allowed to use it to you know correct your prose, right? So we have to be really, really careful about that uh as role models.

Speaker 3 47:07

Yes.

Speaker 47:07

So teachers as role models. So I guess as we continue, um what is the situation where you believe that teachers have a role to play in this, especially when we're looking at walled gardens? Like where do the teachers fit in? They're rural role models. Are they in a situation where they watch and say you can't do that? What what is the role of a teacher?

Speaker 1 47:31

So I think it's it's it's about understanding that uh one of our fundamental responsibilities is to ensure the healthy, a healthy course of development for kids, right? And that's something that I think schools are uniquely positioned to provide kids in a way that maybe certain elements of their the rest of their development and the rest of their childhood does not offer them today as akin to what that may have looked like 20 years ago. Um and so creating those conditions is a part of our responsibility, I think. You know, we talk about sustained attention, we talk about wanting kids to read deeply and extensively and engage in these uh habits and these kinds of activities that are developmentally beneficial to them. But we then we have to ask ourselves, when was the last time our students saw their teachers reading for pleasure? Yeah, right? Yeah, rarely, if ever, right? Um, and sometimes we also feel as teachers that if we're sitting in the learning commons or the library reading a book, we worry that we're being we're being seen to be not productive, right?

Speaker 2 48:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1 48:48

When what could be more productive than showing your students that that's a behavior that they should be engaged in, right? Um so we got to take those kinds of things seriously.

Speaker 3 48:59

Aaron Ross Powell, I remember years ago there was some school I read about that the whole school at a certain time would be reading, even the custodian, everybody would be getting out in a book, and it was just that was what you did, right? And people could see it modeled by everyone, it just became a norm, right? Right. Where norm now is just not to do that, to go on your phone. Exactly. And don't you think this all this calls for a kind of a rethink about what schools should be and education? Because when when I think about the history of public education, I think it kind of began because they wanted again to get good little workers in the workforce, right? Right? What do we need? That we'll we'll start paying for kids to education now, right? Early, early 1900s, but this way we're gonna have good little workers to go into our factories and build our Model T's, right? Sure. Trevor Burrus, Jr. The 60s came along, and there was suddenly a bit of a revolution. We need we need people to be critical thinkers. We need them to understand what democracy is and to make good choices. But now we've kind of gone back to that, no, let's just make people that will fit into the marketplace out there. And I to me, in my heart, I say, let's go back and realize at the end of the day, don't we want our students to be critical thinkers and able to change? Because then no matter what the economy does, because we're always wrong about what's next, right? We were wrong about coding. Remember all the time we spent to teach kids how to code, right? Everybody needs to code. All that time that was wasted when now it's irrelevant now, right? So but at the end of the day, if you're a critical thinker and you you understand these things and you can read well and you can write well, you could adapt for anything that's out there.

Speaker 1 50:29

Aaron Powell Yes, that's absolutely right. And I think the pendulum often swings back and forth between those two extremes, right? And I think there's there's again, there's there's justifiable rationales for both, obviously. But the thing that's different about today is again, we have tools that allow kids to circumvent those developmental opportunities that help them grow. So whether you're talking about training kids for to work in in uh you know on the assembly line, or you're talking about critical thought, under both of those paradigms, um, the tasks that we assign kids in schools um ensured their cognitive development, right? It ensured that they had to struggle in some way, shape, or form, even though maybe preparing to you know follow orders on the assembly line was boring and whatnot, they still had to engage uh with their with their work intellectually and they had to overcome some uh some struggle. Today, some of the tools that we offer kids uh or that they have access to prevent that those opportunities. And so um they're no longer getting that chance to grow in uh the manner we might hope that they would cognitively, socially, emotionally, physically, um, because all of those domains are affected by uh excessive screen time.

Speaker 51:55

Have you seen some examples that give you hope that this shift is possible?

Speaker 1 52:02

For sure. Um I'm great, I'm glad you asked that, Roy. So um there's a county. So, first of all, there are schools that have successfully implemented smartphone bans um in different jurisdictions. There's a county in Kentucky, actually, where last year they implemented a smartphone ban. And it they it also coincided with a concerted effort around a literacy campaign. So they were encouraging kids to read. And it was so successful that in the first month of the school year, library book checkouts within the county doubled over the entire previous school year. After we saw declines in PISA test scores, which measures uh reading, math, and science skills in 15-year-olds in OECD countries. Um, Sweden had gone all in on uh one-to-one device programs in digital literacy and so on and so forth. But they were their scores had nosedived. And they saw the correlation between the adoption of these tools and the amount of time the kids were spending on screens. And the second they saw that data come in, they threw it all away and they've gone back to uh pen and paper. They made a $100 million investment in textbooks, and they're seeing their scores increase again, right? So there are people that are looking at the evidence. Uh, Denmark has decided to do something similar as well. Uh so I do think that there's hope, and I think there are schools and districts that are following the evidence and and uh responding accordingly. Uh, but we just have to be brave enough to do so, right?

Speaker 3 53:42

On your Substack uh site, uh you posted an article about Australia, and I think there was a recent study where after their cell phone ban that the sale of books has gone up. Yes. You know, not it wasn't a huge amount, but it was between five to ten percent. So that's again another example of how things can change.

Speaker 1 53:57

Trevor Burrus Exactly.

Speaker 3 53:58

Exactly. So just to wrap up on that note, let's and this is probably gonna be a question you'll go, I can't answer this two minutes. And if you can't, then we'll have to have you back on to give the full answer.

Speaker 1 54:09

I'd be I'd be glad to.

Speaker 3 54:11

Yeah, that would be great. Trevor Burrus, but let's say the three of us were gonna create the ideal school for cognitive abilities and thinking and kind of dealing with the way the world is. What will be some things you would like to see in this?

Speaker 1 54:25

Um in my most recent piece that I wrote on Substack, um, I drew an analogy between schools and hospitals. And I think hospitals, obviously, they're very different environments, but I think the lesson that we can take from hospitals is that they're designed with purpose. So when conditions change, they respond accordingly. And they have a very clear mandate with respect to what it is that they're trying to accomplish, right? We have uh patients that are dealing with a given ailment, and all of the conditions of the environment are designed so that they can achieve recovery and so that we can protect others, including healthcare workers, from exacerbating the problem, right? Uh and the way that they responded to COVID, right, is a really good indication of how design followed changed conditions, right? So they um changed patient flows, PPE requirements were enhanced, um air handling systems changed, all of these kinds of things, right? And so what we're taught overnight, overnight.

Speaker 2 55:32

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 55:33

And so what we're talking about in schools is we've undergone a really changed set of conditions, right? And these technologies, though they're very useful and we do need to use them, um, have changed the developmental conditions for childhood. And I think we can use lessons from hospitals uh in order to guide our decisions in schools. And so I think hospitals do two things, right? Um, they create protective boundaries when appropriate. Um, so a couple of the things that they do is like I said, um, you know, in an operating room, an operating room is a sterile environment, not just because, you know, we like sterility, but because we're trying to prevent infection, right? And so in schools, I think we can control how and when and why students use technologies under what circumstances. That would be a protective boundary. Um, similarly, like what I was saying when we were talking about learning commons versus libraries, I think both kinds of environments are beneficial, but we need to give kids access to both, right? So, how we how we organize our physical environments is really, really important. Um, and then the commercial platforms that we use as well uh from the tech side of things, right? So uh if we're using a tool like Google Classroom, where the kid is getting reminders for all the work that they have to do, then you know we're stealing an opportunity for them to develop executive functions. So those are like protective boundaries, right? Yes. But hospitals also elevate standards, right? So they have higher standards for hygiene than you would have in other public spaces. And schools can do the same thing, right? So exactly. So we've got um a screen-based culture today. Um, so I think schools can have elevated standards around face-to-face time, right? Yeah, so where there might be an opportunity to send an email or to even have like a meeting for a club over Zoom, the default should probably be meet in person, right? Yeah. And and facilitate that face-to-face. Um, I think we have elevated standards for modeled behavior as well. If you go on the public bus on the North Shore, uh, chances are you're gonna see a lot of people listening to podcasts or staring at their or swiping on their phones, right? So in schools, I think it would be great, as we said earlier, if uh students could see teachers engaged in sustained reading, or if they peer into a classroom where there's a staff meeting happening and nobody has a laptop open. Right. All those things I think are meaningful, right? So protective boundaries on one hand, elevated standards on the other, and I think we can go a long way.

Speaker 3 58:24

I love your school. Sign me up and come and come back. Okay, Martin. I'll be there. Awesome. I'd love it. Now, Andrew, on our website, we will put links to all your writings, but can you just tell the listeners where we can find these articles you've written? Sure.

Speaker 1 58:37

Sure, yeah. So I'm actually, you can find me on Instagram, X or Blue Sky under at walledgardenedu. I I post there sparingly. Um, but if you really want to engage with uh the the long form writing that I do, the best place to go is to Substack. Yeah. And the newsletter is called the Walled Garden Education.

Speaker 3 59:02

And what what do you find different about Substack? I've only because you know I've you try to limit all the things you get involved in, but I've only discumbed the Substack and it does feel different. Am I correct assumption? Yeah.

Speaker 1 59:13

There are elements of Substack that are very social media like, but the thing that it tries to elevate is long form writing, you know? So um ultimately it's trying to push to people towards reading uh articles, essays, as opposed to little bite-sized 280-character uh, you know, little little clips.

Speaker 2 59:35

Right.

Speaker 3 59:36

And from what I see, it fosters deeper discussion, I find. It seems that way, yeah. I'm maybe I'm just being hopeful, but you've got to be hopeful.

Speaker 1 59:44

I think you're right, Martin. I think you're right. Yes.

Speaker 3 59:46

Well, thank you, Andrew. We so appreciate this. You coming on after the battle and giving us your valuable time in this uh what is cold, cold weather for you.

Speaker 59:54

Aaron Ross Powell After reading so much about you and listening, it's just nice to see you and uh have this discussion with you.

Speaker 3 1:00:02

Yeah, and our listeners are gonna get a lot out of this. Thank you, Mr. Trevor Burrus, it's been a pleasure for me.

Speaker 1:00:05

I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you both.

Speaker 3 1:00:07

Thank you. After the bell, there you go. Andrew Andrew Cantaruti. That was a really wonderful discussion. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It it was good.

Speaker 1:00:18

We we've done lots of reading, and I've listened to a lot of um videos and uh discussions about technology. And I always had, like I said, I always in the back of my mind, there's just something going on in the schools that I can't put my finger on it. And wow, just you know, what uh Andrew brought up was something that was like, ah, and he's clearly not anti-technology.

Speaker 3 1:00:46

And I never have been. I love technology. Oh. I embrace it, but we have to think about it, that's all.

Speaker 1:00:52

And and and the whole idea that um and and I know that technology has fragments your attention, but I've never thought of it in the way that, you know, pulling that away and then trying to develop a greater attention span in the classroom.

Speaker 3 1:01:11

Trevor Burrus, yeah.

Speaker 1:01:12

And and attention as curriculum. Um an interesting idea. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

Speaker 3 1:01:15

And to me that's the priority now, is a little rethink of why we have schools, right? Can we uh improve critical thinking skills and improve the process and not just worry about the product.

Speaker 1:01:26

So And I've heard a discussion about deep thinking uh many times, uh but this really kind of it put a lot of pieces in place for me, and I'm hoping for our listeners, you know, it it's caused our listeners to think about their the the teaching, think about their what's going on in the classrooms, and hopefully this puts some pieces in place for them to think, oh, that makes sense to me. Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:01:53

And as always, listeners, give us your feedback. Go to stuntbrothers.ca, send us an email, stuntbrothersrm at gmail.com and stuntbrothers.ca. There you go. So we hope we hope you join in the conversation. Tell us what you're experiencing in the classroom, tell us what you agree, what you don't agree with, and we'll uh listen to you next time on AfterThe Bell. Thanks a lot. This podcast is organic, taking shape with each episode, building resiliency for teachers everywhere.

Speaker 1:02:23

That sounds great.

Speaker 3 1:02:24

And our website is stuntbrothers.ca.

Speaker 1:02:26

That's stuntbrothers.ca.

Speaker 3 1:02:29

We will chat again.

Speaker 1:02:31

After the bell.