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Understanding Postnatal Depression - Interview with Psychologist Anna Howlett

• Ash Cam • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Unfortunately, postnatal depression is very common. In fact, some studies suggest it impacts up to 1 in 5 new mums.

This topic hits home for me as it has impacted some of the strongest women I know - without warning and for a number of reasons often diagnosed far too late.

Anna is a Psychologist and the mother of adorable twins.

In today's episode we dive deep into understanding the warning signs, triggers, prevention strategies and support that new parents need. During pregnancy, new mothers are given lots of support - however, once the baby arrives the focus tends to shift to the child when it is the new mother who needs our love and support more than ever.

If you are a parent, partner, have a family member or a friend who is about to become a parent - you're going to want to listen to this.

Support:

PANDA Perinatal Anxiety and Depression Australia : https://www.panda.org.au

Beyond Blue:
https://www.beyondblue.org.au

Australian Psychological Society - support to find a psychologist: https://psychology.org.au/find-a-psychologist

Connect with Anna on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ah.psychology/

Visit Anna's Website: www.annahowlett.com.au


Follow Ash on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ashcam____/

See latest Reset Retreats, Workshops & Events: www.resetworkplace.com.au

Watch this episode on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@Reset.Workplace

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Anna. Hi. Hey, welcome to Reset. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, so good to have you here. So Anna, you are a psychologist. You have your own private practice. You're also a mum of twins. Yeah. What do you do to reset when life just gets crazy busy?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, you put it like that and it is crazy busy. It's wild. To reset anything with water, actually, anything with water. I think this is like my little star sign of being a water sign. If you can put me near the ocean or even better, in like a soak bathhouse bliss. But anyway, near the ocean, ocean swim, that sort of thing, it is my nervous system go-to. I also, I think like a quick reset is a shower. So to me, particularly postpartum when going to the beach was not happening as often as I would like. Jumping in the shower and just something about the water, closing my eyes, having a big breath. It was just perfect. It's definitely my go-to.

SPEAKER_00:

Amazing. So today we're going to dive straight into all things motherhood and particularly the transformation that happens when you go from being a busy career woman to being a mum. So let's just rip it off like a band-aid straight into it. If anyone is currently thinking about kids, pregnant or a new mum, what do they need to hear from a psychologist's perspective?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Good luck.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, no. That sounds really negative actually. No, but like good luck because it is the most transformative sort of journey that you're going to go into. I think for me personally, I went through a lot of IVF to have my babies. So I felt like I wanted these children so much. And then, well, and I say children, I then got the surprise of having two. So it was a lot of like adapting and sort of embracing all of this part. I... think for me going into motherhood, I really focused on like, yeah, I'm going to be sleep deprived or it's going to be challenging learning how to change a nappy, how to balance breastfeeding or formula feeding and doing all of these things. But one thing I wasn't prepared for and I wish I knew was, I guess, the transformation for myself. So exactly like you say, from being this career woman, this person that I was so independent, and then to step into this space where not only were my babies dependent on me, but I needed to depend on other people. So to me, this was something that I wish I'd prepared for more, knowing that not only was I going to meet whole new little person, or in my case, two new little people, I then needed to learn all about myself again and find out who I was and what I needed. And I think that was really challenging and something that I think, I guess I could have put in a little bit more prep work, a little bit more prep work to sort of make that transition easier.

SPEAKER_00:

A lot of people talk about, and I think social media really glamorizes the concept of bouncing back after motherhood. But We can never go back to who we were before. It's like saying, oh, I'm in my 30s now. I'm just going to go back to who I was when I was 18. It's not possible. So I think a better term from my perspective is we bounce forward and it's going to be a blank canvas. You will never be the same person again, which doesn't have to be a bad thing. But how long does it actually take to get our pre-baby mind right?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that is like, how long is a piece of string? I think there is so many mixed sort of answers to this. So they do talk about like the hormonal changes for women that it can take over a year before you're starting to sort of feel a little bit more balanced out. For myself, my twins have just turned one and I've I think we're still balancing. I definitely think we're still balancing. I have felt a real shift from about nine months onwards where things do start to settle, but they're saying that like that minimum one year mark. One thing I have really found with this, and I don't know if you've heard it, it's around social media at the moment, is the flamingo with the pink. So when a flamingo has a baby, they lose their pink color. they give it to their offspring. And it takes that flamingo about three years before they get their pink back. And I think that's something that for many mothers, we are learning to get that pink back. And I think about that year mark, we might be starting to get some color if things have been supported in that right direction. But yeah, I don't think we sort of bounce back to a beautiful fluorescent pink straight away.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a really beautiful visual to have. Yeah, I love it. Postnatal depression. Unfortunately, I know way too many people that have struggled with it. What is it and what are some of the warning signs?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so postnatal depression is incredibly common and I think much more commonly than we realize. It's this persistent feeling of sadness, this feeling of often this empty grief, low sort of a mood, similar with depression, of course. We may have a lack of energy. And I love this in motherhood or in parenthood, I guess, because it's not just mothers, is this idea of this trouble sleeping. And people go, of course, you're having trouble sleeping. You've got a newborn. You've got a baby. It's like, no, it's more than that. It's lying awake. It's a lack of energy, a hopelessness, this feeling of dread. For me, when I was going through postpartum, I had this feeling of like, I can't do this. It was just this complete hopeless feeling that I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I just felt this immense sort of like guilt and loss. The other thing that's really important with postpartum depression that we often don't speak of or we get very anxious about is these thoughts to harm your baby or harm yourself. And for a lot of people, this sounds really scary, but it may be more that it's this feeling of being a burden. I just don't want to be here anymore or my child would be better off without me. This often then comes with this immense feeling of guilt and fear because you think, I love this little person or I may love this little person and I just don't think that I deserve them or they deserve me and things would be better off without me. As I say that, Ash, as well, one thing I forgot to mention is this trouble, I guess, bonding with your child. So I think particularly social media, we see they're like, oh, you birth a baby and you hold them to your chest and it's just this overwhelming feeling of love, definitely, for some people. But other people... It's like, well, what the hell is this? What is this done? That love may take a lot of time to come. It may not be instant. And then the guilt and the questioning that comes with that, the comparison that just aids to this postnatal depression.

SPEAKER_00:

Huge. And I think it's so important to talk about this side of things and really normalize it because I know too many people, like we said before, that have experienced this, but they also suffer in silence for... Way too long.

SPEAKER_01:

So, so much. I was thinking about this conversation that we'd be having about postnatal depression. And I thought for myself, what was the thoughts going around in my head when I was struggling? And I remember days where I was just crying. And I was like, this cannot be normal. This cannot be what this is meant to be like. And then on the other hand, I thought, you've got newborns. Of course, this is hard. This is what everyone experiences. what are you talking about? Just suck it up, really. This is from me. I'm a psychologist. I would never say this to someone else. And yet I was there being so cruel to myself and just being like, you need to get through this. This is fine. And then on the other hand, there's so many flip sides. It was like, you cannot let anyone know you're You wanted these babies so much. You've done this. You had these children. You need to figure this out. You can do hard things. So you should be able to do this better. And it took me a long time with those tears flowing and flowing before I went, oh, maybe this doesn't need to be this hard. But like you said, so many of us, I think, suffer in silence and we just sort of gaslight ourselves into thinking this is what it is. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00:

Is it hereditary or are there certain people that are more prone?

SPEAKER_01:

So there's definitely a genetic component to postnatal depression. Like many mental health struggles, they're Also, obviously, like lifestyle factors, personality, like you said, which I will jump to, but things that make it, I guess, more likely to experience postnatal depression are things like a complicated birth or complicated pregnancy, sorry. So people that spend a lot of their pregnancy maybe being unwell or just have that anxiety, it's a high-risk pregnancy. Multiple pregnancies come with higher risks, traumatic births, having a lack of support. So this may be, I mean, within your relationship, if you're in a relationship, there may be a lack of support there. You may be away from family or your family may be close, but still having like those lack of boundaries or not helpful in so many ways. Someone that has experienced mental health struggles before may be also more likely to This isn't stuff that's going to, it shouldn't alarm you. I mean, I hear this, I'm like, oh God, tick, tick, tick, all of these sort of things. But it's also about just safeguarding. If we know these risk factors, then we can plan ahead. And this is something that I just wish I had done. We prepare the nappy bag, prepare the nursery, and we don't necessarily prepare that postpartum journey. The other thing you said there, like a more personality, different personality types, definitely someone that is more resilient, I want to put it in, maybe a little bit more easygoing, go with the flow, may navigate some of the challenges better. Thank you so much. I can then do all of these things on my own. And I used to just pick up and go every, you know, go to the beach or do these things. And I thought I would struggle then with having little like babies dependent on me, but it was not that. It was the fact that I needed to ask for help. And that was a big struggle for me. And I think that made motherhood more challenging for me to transition into. So I think sort of Taking that stock, like what are some of the things, maybe your strengths, but what do you need to build them up in those areas to make sure you have that support as you enter into it?

SPEAKER_00:

So if someone's listening and they're either planning to have children, maybe they're currently pregnant or in the early stages of motherhood and they're thinking, what are some proactive things that I can do right now? And it's probably the reverse of a lot of the things you said, but what's kind of a checklist of like, okay, what support do I need to build around me to set myself up for a higher chance of success, I guess?

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. So I think One thing that I am so passionate about is that postpartum care. Like I said, you pack the nappy bag, do the nursery, you go to maybe your physio or you check up with your baby, but we don't have any of that for ourselves, usually as mothers, in terms of mental health. So for me, if I could rewind my clock back, if I could tell anyone, it would be finding a Someone that can support you. Obviously, I'm a little bit biased and I think that a psychologist is fantastic at that. And making that appointment, getting to your GP, getting a referral, making an appointment before you have bub. So it is booked in. You can always cancel it. I say this all the time to people. It is more like if you need to cancel it, if you need to reschedule it, fine. But unless it's in that diary, it's not going to be in your mind. So making that first step, I think, is critical. The other thing I think is having conversations with friends. So for me, I have got a friend that who, you know, Madison, who was work with you is my straight shooter. So she is someone that if I say to her, I am struggling, she's not going to brush it under the rug. She will message me. She will check in. Hey, what are you doing about that? I know you said it's all good now, but but I think you need to do these steps. I think having a person, a partner, a friend, a family member in your life that you say, if you notice me struggling, can you please do this, is a really good plan to have. More than one person is even better, but having at least one person there. Having conversations. If you are concerned, you're like, look, I know that I'm really nervous about being home all day with bub. I'm worried about this. What are some things that we can put in place? Trying to create a little bit of a sense of community. So if you have friends already that are pregnant, mums, this can be just such a lifeline. I have this girlfriend that we don't sort of send long messages to each other. Once a week on a Sunday, we send usually a handful of photos of what we've been doing and a small message. This is my open door to say, I've had a terrible week and I'm struggling with this. Can you help? Without it being so confronting or having to be that big step. So to me, putting those small things in place, not only your professional support, but calling in your people, I think that is what is so important.

SPEAKER_00:

If someone's listening and they think, okay, those are all lovely, but I'm actually in the depths of postnatal depression or what could be postnatal depression right now. What is step one that they should do? Just turn off this podcast and

SPEAKER_01:

contact your GP. I think that is the number one thing. Definitely. All of those things are fantastic to support you along the way. But when you are in that bit, when you are struggling, when those tears are flowing or that rage is burning, anything like that, Yeah. psychology near me. The Australian Psychology Society website has a Find My Psychologist. I am in that age of social media where you jump on and you have a feel for someone, make that appointment and start there. It is never going to harm you to talk to someone like that and to have some support knowing that you're not alone. There's also other resources, Ash, like the Panda website, which is the Perinatal Anxiety and Depression Association. That has a lots of resources where it's like, if you, you know, it's 2am, you're like, great, I can make a GP appointment for tomorrow. But right now, what the hell am I doing? Jump on there. Jump on there, contact your lifeline, your crisis centers and your mental health network and talk to someone because you are not alone. But my God, it feels lonely.

SPEAKER_00:

We can put all of those links in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

definitely. And if someone wants to come and work with you personally, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01:

You can find me on Instagram, which we can pop a little link in the show notes. And I'm also located at the Lavrac Rooms, which is our beautiful practice at Mermaid Beach.

SPEAKER_00:

Gorgeous. And if someone's listening and they're not personally experiencing motherhood, but maybe their friend, someone in their team or their partner, what can they do to support? Oh, I love this. So I

SPEAKER_01:

definitely think... It sounds simple, but just talking to the person, reaching out, connecting. So often in motherhood, we get this influx of support in the beginning, in your pregnancy. How's the baby? How's this? And we forget to check in on the person as time goes on. So touching base, I'm thinking of you. How are you going? One of the things that I found overwhelming with people would say, let me know if you want to catch up. Instead of that, just being like, hey, I'm free on Friday. are you available? That sort of a thing I think is so important. The other part here, as important as it is to check in on the mom and how they're going with motherhood, just remember that they're also a person. And this makes me sort of feel emotional with this, but They are now a mom, but they are still that person. They are still your friend, their partner, you know, your sister, your daughter. And asking them how they are is so incredibly important. This doesn't only go for someone that's going through motherhood, but maybe someone that's trying to conceive there or that is pregnant. There is so many other aspects. And I think in this, we get so lost. We get so absorbed and we lose our identity. Check in on your friend and don't be afraid to ask them, like, how are you going? I can see you're struggling. Can I help you with making an appointment?

SPEAKER_00:

And what about partners? I feel like there is a lot of more focus on the female that's giving birth, but what about the partner involved? How can we check in on them as well? Because their life has also changed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, this gets so forgotten. And as myself, for my partner, I often have to remind myself of that, that I'm like, Everything's changed for them too, but they're sort of not given that space. So asking the questions, spending the time both as a couple, as an individual, I think carving that out is important. Letting them know, I think it seems small, but that it's like, I'm proud of you of how you're adapting to this or how you're supporting me. Putting things in a positive way. Often when we're in the depths of things, we quickly criticise. you're not doing this, you're not spending time with me, you never do this or that. But that partner is usually trying everything that they can to maybe financially support, to come home with a smile, to do all of these things. So remembering to check in with them. The same as a mother, like if you don't feel you have the capacity to do that for your partner as much as you'd like, call in your people. Ask for help. You know, there may be friends around you that you say, hey, can you check in on so-and-so for me? I can see he's struggling, but I am just so absorbed in my own stuff right now. Can you help me? It's that old thing, it takes a village, but sometimes your village needs to be asked.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm sensing that theme here, and I think a lot of reset listeners are Fiercely independent, super career driven. And yeah, asking for help is not within our comfort zone. So it's a muscle that's going to need to be flexed and worked out like anything. Speaking of careers, when is the right time, if any, to go back to work after having a baby, if you choose to?

SPEAKER_01:

Such a complex question, isn't it? So for me, when I went off on my maternity leave, I didn't really have an idea of when I'd go back. which was not helpful for my clients who were like, when are we going to see you again? But I went back at about five months and it was one of the best decisions I made in my postpartum journey. It gave me just that, Thank you so much. I also understand that I'm in a very privileged position because I was able to go back just that one day. I was able to choose my hours and I think that isn't for everyone. But some of the things I sort of needed to go back and I think is important for people is trust in the care where my children were going. So whether that's daycare or family, I felt like that was an important aspect for me. I eased into it. I think if you have the ability to ease into work and to feel it out, that is such an important thing as well. There isn't a right or a wrong time to go back. I think you need time for yourself, whatever that looks like. And if that's work and that's where you find your passion, then that's it. I think it's probably not the answer. There's not an answer for it, is there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I often hear friends talking about this mum guilt. And I have some friends that have chosen to go back to work a few days a week, which is filling that cup for them. But then they don't have a day to themselves other than work and being full-time mum, really. How important is it to carve out time that is actually just for you without the mum guilt?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's so important. And I am with you there. A hundred percent. Even today, my children are in care and I don't have that much on this afternoon. And in my head, I was driving here thinking, oh, maybe I should be picking them up early. I should be having them because of this and that. And it's like, you don't need to do that. You need to recharge. You need to spend that time on your own. And why? Because it usually makes you a better mother and a better partner, friend, better person. You feel so much more like yourself. So I think one of the things I would say to people is to start small. When you have been with your baby for so long, it is going to be such a shock to the system to drop them off and spend the day away or the night away. But start small. Can you go and get a coffee on your own? Can you Instead of just going out and running an errand, can you maybe drive by the beach and just sit there for a moment? Start small. Notice that you will feel uncomfortable. That's okay. It's just this feeling that it's unusual and that guilt may be there, but you remind yourself that it's like it has no place here. You are looking after yourself and you are filling up your own cup. I think one of the things I do is like, ah, there's that guilt. There's that yucky guilt that sits there, but it is not welcome here. I am focusing on me and I am recharging my cup or recharging my energy. And I think that's so very important. Having a conversation with your partner or whoever's your support is so important in this so I will often verbalize my guilt or my anxiety around this like oh I'm feeling really like uneasy about like you know going off to the gym or doing this this morning and my partner bless him just gets like why what do you mean so remembering that it's like yeah okay I can see that it is a little bit silly without being invalidating I'm going to go anyway and showing yourself that same support and compassion that you would your partner or your friend

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And it's that old saying that you can't fill from an empty cup, but you actually can't.

SPEAKER_01:

But we try. And I think motherhood, there's so many empty cups. When you think that one's empty, you still just dig a little bit further. So it's sort of the idea is like, stop, take your own pulse. Let's just recharge. You don't have to do it all. So being able to take those moments and even if they are moments, not these big days, not, you know, when I started, we started talking and said, oh, like a soak or a sauna or like, you know, that sort of thing is what I love. But just having a shower and a longer, quieter, soothing shower can be just a moment on my own.

SPEAKER_00:

Birth rates around the world are declining for a number of different reasons. But if someone's listening and they're on the fence and they're thinking, you know what, my life is pretty great. I don't know if I want to have kids or not. There is no right answer to that question. But what kind of process as a psychologist would you recommend they go through to gain clarity on where they want to go with that decision? I think for starters,

SPEAKER_01:

like incredible, because if you're having those thoughts, it's like just honor them for a moment, being able to sit with them and really unpack them. So many of us look outside to think like, well, we just have to, we just have to, you know, have the baby get married, do all of these things. So it's like, listen to that voice and unpack it. Of course. go and talk to someone. I think sitting down with a really good psychologist and unpacking like, what are your reasons for that? Your values, your, you know, where do you want to see your life? How do you want to look back on things? Let's look at that and understand why. Is it because this is, you know, this is what's important to you and you feel really strongly that it's like, I don't want to bring a child into this world or I'm really satisfied. Amazing. Is it because there's fear? Is it because of other sort of things? And if it's that, let's look at that as well. I think that is a fantastic point to get to. If you want to start somewhere before that is open up that journal. and ask yourself those questions and let that pen sort of take away. Writing it out, unpacking it, questioning yourself. Like you said, there isn't a right answer for this. People will tell you so many different things, but being able to just pause, take that time and sit with your own sort of feelings with it, it's so important.

SPEAKER_00:

Are there any specific resources that you think mums or new parents should have access to? We can link these in the show notes, but what do you think everyone needs to be aware of?

SPEAKER_01:

Look, I think you look at your main ones, which I think I mentioned before, which is Panda, the perinatal anxiety and depression website. And I remember myself scrolling that at one point in early hours, just being like, oh, I think that maybe things are a little bit out of control right now. You've also got your classics, like your Beyond Blue and Lifeline. To me, some of the biggest resources are going to be things like your GP. your psychologist, your support network. Podcasts have been a go-to for me. So parenting podcasts that you can listen to and they normalize some of these struggles or particularly like navigating your relationship after birth. So one that comes to mind is the Beyond the Bump, I think is a fantastic podcast for that. It keeps it real. Things like that. Also knowing when to switch off the resources. I think can be a really important one when too much knowledge might be too much. I think that's important as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely. And then speaking of resources and books, is there a book that you've read that has had a really positive impact on your life?

SPEAKER_01:

There is so many books. I am, I was going to say like a closet reader, like a junkie, but it's not a closet. Anyone that knows me is like, I will just read and read. So my Kindle is like my little companion and, Book that I would say I love anything by Brene Brown. But to be honest with you, Ash, I think for me, and particularly in this motherhood journey, I have steered away from more of the like nonfiction and I am a big fiction girly. So get me into any little psychological thriller. Freda McFannin, I always say, I think that's how you pronounce it, is my absolute go-to. Something that I can pick up And my mind can escape is exactly what I am after, after a day, whether it be at work or with the kids. I just want to go to a whole different world. And actually I've gotten into a bit of the sort of fantasy and that sort of a love story thing as well, which is just so off brand for me, but it just gives me something else to think about.

SPEAKER_00:

And to kind of end on a beautiful positive note, what are some of the aspects about motherhood that have just really pleasantly surprised you? Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

so many. While there's been so many challenges, I also think that it goes so quickly and those challenges, they soften. I think that's why sometimes people go back for more. For me, I have been... so incredibly blessed to have two beautiful children and it makes me so emotional thinking about it. To watch them bond with each other has been just amazing. To see them laugh, to see them hug you is just the most beautiful thing I could ever imagine. To also watch them My friends and my family fall in love with my babies has been incredible and to realize how capable I am. I can do hard things. I've done degrees. I've set up my business. I've done all of this. But to survive this first year has been nothing, like nothing I have ever comprehended. And I am so incredibly proud of myself and my family. And you got me. Yeah. I can feel that. Yeah. It's just been amazing. And I think for mums that are going through it now, it's knowing that it can get easier. And some days I just look and I'm like, this is really hard, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00:

Anna, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. I think that you've probably made a lot of women feel very seen, very heard. And I will link all your details in the show notes that if anyone wants to come and work with you and someone that has been through potentially some of the struggles that they're currently experiencing, then they know exactly where to find you. So thank you for spending time with me today.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Ash. It's been an absolute privilege.

SPEAKER_00:

I wanted to say a big thank you for joining us today. My team, our guests, and I pour so much love and time into making these I hope you have the most beautiful day. I'll see you soon.