STORIESINDESIGN
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STORIESINDESIGN
50 Years of SJB
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Michael Bialek, Adam Haddow, Andrew Parr, Emily Wombwell and Beau Fulwood join Timothy Alouani-Roby at The Commons in Melbourne on the exact anniversary of the practice's half-century.
Image: From the celebration event at the NGV, photo by Michael Pham.
STORIESINDESIGN
Michael Bjalek, Adam Hado, Andrew Parr, Bo Fulwood, Emily Woomwell. These five members of SJB join me on Wurundjury Woi Warren Country at the Commons in Melbourne, fresh from celebrations marking the 50th anniversary of the practice. I hope you enjoy the episode. Well, hello and welcome to all five of my guests. This is a this is a record-breaking uh round table for the podcast of the highest number of people, and we're all crammed in here in Melbourne. So welcome to you all. It's April Fool's Day, which I understand is the exact 50th anniversary of SJB. We're fresh from the celebration event at the NGV last night. And I'm going to start with an icebreaker that's a little bit different today because of the numbers in the studio. I'm going to ask each one of you briefly to tell me something about one of your colleagues in the room. So let's start with Emily seen as you're right next to me. It can be jovial, it could be very serious. Tell me something about one of your colleagues here.
SPEAKER_00This is going to be targeted. Targeted at Adam, because he's the one I know most in the room. Having worked for 13 years together now. Something about Adam. He's tall. We were talking about his age off there.
SPEAKER_06And he's quiet. I'm really good at it.
SPEAKER_00Very quiet.
SPEAKER_06Warflower.
SPEAKER_00On a personal note, he's probably my most important sponsor for my own growth in my career. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Lovely. And that means we hand over to Adam. Tell us about someone else.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I'll do Parsey.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, over to you. Thank you, Adam. I was hoping for some dirt on people. I can get dirt.
SPEAKER_03I've got too much dirt on myself.
SPEAKER_06Why elaborate on me? I'll pick up Michael. Um what I think what came out of last night is everyone is very in awe of Michael and actually his genuinely manner and his sponsorship and the fact that he really does procure great talent. And I'm not joking through the whole organization. And I think that's a really engaging character to have and personality to have. And even all my clients that have ever dealt with Michael or lived in the same building as Michael say, what a wonderful person he is.
SPEAKER_02Great, which means Michael has to say something about Bo. Correct.
SPEAKER_05Hopefully it's something good.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, wait, you could say something about Emily as well.
SPEAKER_04No, I probably best um experience to talk about Bo. So I I kind of regard Bo as um as the younger Adam, like coming from kind of a country origin, um, tall. Um taller in the country. A really good people person. And so the feedback that I've had over the time that he's been with us, and particularly recently, where he's become involved in driving and managing large-scale projects for important clients, has been universally good. And uh I'm really uh confident of his ability to work with the other new partners in the business to drive us into the next 50 years.
SPEAKER_02Great. So, Bo, do you have anything on Emily?
SPEAKER_05Yes, I do. Um, so Emily, I guess um, before I got to know Emily, I thought she was uh very serious. Um, however, as I've gotten to know her um over the last few years, um, she's got an incredible uh wicked humor, which is very much like my own. Um, so yeah, that was been incredible to discover that. And yeah, I feel like we've connected on that level as well.
SPEAKER_02Great. Thanks everyone. Well, that that helps me also to not get any names mixed up. Instead of whipping around and wasting time, I will just introduce you all individually. Tell me if there's any mistakes. Um, we've got Michael Bjarle, founding director, based in Melbourne, Adam Haddow, partner in Sydney, Andrew Parr, managing director in Melbourne, Bo Fulwood, director in Melbourne, and Emily Woomwell, partner in Sydney. Did I pronounce everyone's names correctly? Okay, so well, congratulations from me, first of all, on the 50 years. It's an enormous milestone. One of the speeches last night, I think it was yours, um, Michael. You spoke about there being chapters, or you spoke about um understanding the story decade by decade. So I might borrow that structure to guide our discussion today. And start with the obvious point of we'll start with the beginning. Can you tell us about how things began in 1976, please?
SPEAKER_04Um, well, it was the coming together of three people who had been working together for about two years only. So it was a fledging business started by Alan Sinman and Charles Justin. Um, I joined them as soon as I finished my university um uh period and uh worked for them for a couple of years. I was fortunate for uh an older couple to give me a commission to design and build a house for them in Melbourne, and with that project I kind of uh said to Alan and Charles that I need to conclude this project because it's really important for me, and I'll either bring it into the office or I'll have to do it on my own. So that uh Charles always reminds us, he said I gave him an ultimatum. I don't remember that, but uh it it was quickly agreed that I would join them, and we had like three of us, and that was it. I think maybe a receptionist or a secretary, and that was the start of SJB April the first, 1976.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. Okay, so who in the room was the next uh involved at SJB?
SPEAKER_04Uh my goodness, I think it was either Andrew or Barrett or yeah, I think it was Andrew Park. Also came out of uh school as a kind of uh a highly rated designer. And I think he had an interview with us, and uh we recognized the talent straight away, and he worked for us for several years and led our foray into specific interior design commissions. And uh eventually we came to him with a proposition about well, let's start a business which you can share with us, and uh he pushed us into new territory. Um I always recognized him and still do today as one of the best designers I've ever worked with in my 50-year career, and I've had uh a lot of uh satisfaction to see how he's influenced SJB the SJB brand and enjoyed the professional and private relationship I've had with him.
SPEAKER_02Right. So we go from the early founding days, and I think the next chapter would be something like the kind of breakthroughs that you maybe had. Um not exactly sure around how you'd think about the timeline with those, but to maybe the 80s, 90s. Um, who would like to walk us through a little bit of that second chapter, if you like? And and that then leads through to what I understand are the the next big milestones, such as um the interiors that you mentioned and some other expansions that we'll come to.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'm probably the only one who was there in the first two decades. Um, but as I mentioned last night and as included in our uh 50-year edition of our magazine all the of all the places, um, yeah, the first building that we designed over two stories was like way out of our league. Um, we were fortunate to fall in with a group of consultants um who really we gained a huge amount of experience from, and we were almost blind to what we were trying to achieve, but we did it. Uh and it was the first building over two stories. It was office building for the Nissan Finance uh company, which was very prevalent in Australia, and out of that um contract and uh construction of that building, we were uh identified as kind of a new boy on the block. We won our first architectural award, and that pushed us into the the 80s where we delivered uh numerous buildings, maybe a dozen in St Kilda Road. Um I still remember all the numbers. That was Strata offices, that were the headquarters for the American Embassy, there were corner developments, um, all up the the northern end of St Kilda Road. Yeah, and we became prolific for being known to deliver high-quality commercial buildings in St Kilda Road. Same time we were still doing a lot of residential work.
SPEAKER_02Great. So Andrew, turning to you, when did when did you join SJB and and what was the context behind that? What did you um where did you come from and what did you come in to achieve at the time?
SPEAKER_06I started um well we'll just go backwards, I guess. I was um it was my graduate exhibition at um Station Pier in um in Port Melbourne. And believe it or not, I um Alfred De Brun in his lunch break came down to have a look at my exhibition. I think it was as simple as that. Um from that point on, I actually um had to research, as I I think I've mentioned previously. Um we didn't have Google, so I actually didn't know who Syndrome Justin Bielek was, to be honest. They were in the commercial arena. I was at school, and interior design was pretty focused. Even the media and the um print was really focused on the interior design uh realm. They didn't mix architecture and interiors that much back then. You've got to think it's in the 80s. You really had the interior design, general media, and then you had the commercial interior design, corporate office design, and all the rest of that inside and a few other magazines that really focused on the commercial interior design. They didn't really cross over the interiors and architecture. You weren't melded together. You had an architectural magazine and you had the interiors, you were in two different camps. So not that I was ignorant on architects, but I was only I was only um really knew about the really obvious ones, Daryl Jackson and all those ones, because they did the MCGs and then the rest of all that stuff and the big towers and uh that's all I knew. So I had to do actually be Alfred came up to me at the exhibition um during his lunch break because the office, the previous office, was in Bay Street Port Melbourne. It's literally a little walk up to the town hall in Port Melbourne, and he said, Do you want to come for an interview? I said, sure. I don't know who you are, but that's fine. Um so anyway, but I think what what what I what I did get out of the print media was, I guess, really opportunity. You know, I was the normal career for an interior design graduate was you go to the obvious ones, InARC or at that time Gaia Design, and they were pretty much the two, and Nexus, I guess, who was more residential, but a car um or inark at that time, and Gaia were the premium interior brands, and so everyone aspired to go to there. And I think what I reflected on is well, why go there when there's a hundred as good as me there? It's too hard, to be honest. Let's go to an architectural firm, and I really thought about it properly. Got an architectural firm that has the client list that drop can drop me in at a really great level, and I don't have to kill 20 people above me, to be honest. Um, I had to kill a few. How many have you killed? I don't know. I'm checking my back yard. Um so to be honest, you know, it was a really quite a focused thing to do as an interior designer to go to an architectural firm. Like, as I probably mentioned, Daryl Jackson was probably the only one that and the Hassel wasn't even around. Woods Bagot weren't even around, to be honest. Do you know what I mean? Like they were, but they were an architectural, they didn't do interior fit art, so even the whole profession has evolved. So you know, to go to an architectural firm, except for someone like Daryl Jackson or um or Bait Smart, they're the only ones doing commercial interiors. You know, as an architectural firm. So there were many, but anyway, but the the idea of going to an architectural firm was daunting at the first, but then I thought I'll I looked at their clients like, oh, why not? Really? You know, I can I can add, I can add here, I can do it.
SPEAKER_02It seems like a mark of that of the success of that kind of approach that we don't think of that as in any way um extraordinary these days. It's it's the norm. Uh I'm gonna take a I'm gonna send it to you, Adam, and take a wild guess that you might have been the next person into the practice. Yeah. Uh tell us about that and also how that ties into the Sydney expansion story as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. So um I started SJB as a student in my year off, and I actually I remember writing to SJB because uh Andrew had won the Julux Colour Award for the year. They'd won the commercial Dulux Colour Award. So I sent a letter to SJB and um got an interview, and I started off, and that was in the middle of the GFC, so there was almost no jobs. So it was kind of, I was like, oh my gosh, thank you. I got a job. Um started SJB, and then I worked at SJB throughout my university career and just worked for two days a week and then three days a week and then over the holidays. And then when I finished, um there was a competition in the office a couple of years later. I mean, I did a couple of jobs in the office, but then there was a competition for the St. Margaret's Hospital redevelopment in Sydney, which I did. Um, and we won the competition. Uh kind of we kind of won the competition. There's two officers on the competition, so ourselves and PTW in Sydney. And Charles Justin um said to me, Oh, well, you may as well go to Sydney for two weeks. Um, anyway, 26 years later, uh, I went up there for two weeks, and it was it was a pretty remarkable change for me. I hadn't grown up in Melbourne, so I didn't have the kind of connections, familiar connections you have when you kind of grow up in a city. So moving to Sydney for me was really um kind of easy, I suppose. Uh, and then we set up the business. Well, we didn't set up the business there. Um, Andrew was working up there on Establishment Hotel and MG Garage, which were like really, I think, uh watershed interior projects uh in Australia. Uh, and John Prudell had work moved up to work on um a hotel uh there, uh, and Kirsten Stanisich had worked up, moved up to help Andrew. So then I moved up and I was actually I was actually based in the PTW office for two years. So um it was kind of like having two offices. There was a Surrey Hills office, which was kind of more of a creative studio, um, which is SJB HQ, and then I was in the PTW office. So yeah, that St. Margaret's Hospital was kind of the first project I'd ever really worked on to any scale, at least. And that was that kind of for the architectural side of the practice uh is what kicked off Sydney.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and so I understand in terms of those significant chapters again with the decades, another part of that is the the planning arm of the practice as well. Perhaps a couple of you could explain the timeline and the focus and the motivation around that.
SPEAKER_04So I think the timeline was late 80s, early 90s, and um we became aware that town planning was becoming very complicated, and um that architects were no longer the best people to um take control of that early stage of a project. And I think as Charlie mentioned, um in the last couple of days he put an ad in the you know newspaper or some journal and invited town planners to come to SJP and uh potentially look at starting uh a new business. So we um we attracted quite a lot of um submissions, which was quite surprising to us. Again, as Andrew said, it wasn't typical for uh architectural officers to start that kind of initiative. And we had a serious uh uh application from the head planner of the city of Melbourne, so we thought, oh well, that's a pretty good start. He's uh he knows a few people and he could uh he could contribute. And um uh yeah, so Phil Borelli um started that business with us in the early 90s. And uh all of a sudden we had this expertise sitting right next to us. We could bounce ideas, we could learn, we could know about the all the planning controls without having to read it. And uh it was a very comfortable kind of start, and he quickly developed uh a serious business around numerous directors. I think now the kind of morphed business has got about 10 or 12 directors.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think, I think um, just to kind of extend that, the the I had come from the C Melbourne office where that was a part of the that was just part of the furniture, you know, having a planning division. And so when we went to Sydney, um we were doing a project down at Glebe Harbour for Australand, right on the it's a Walter Bailey Griffin Incinerator, we're doing adaptive reuse, and there was an apartment project we were doing there. Uh and the head of planning for that council, like our council at the time was Alison McCabe. And over the process of doing the project, I'm like, I really like you. You're really fun, and actually you're really smart. And I was kind of sick of having to go to other planners and not having someone in the house. So we were like, how about we said to Allison, John and I said to Allison, how about you start our planning division in Sydney? And she was like, Yeah, I could do that as long as I can bring Stuart along. So it was her, he was then the director of planning at the city of Sydney. So the two of them came across um really just because we enjoyed working with them and they set up SJV Planning, which is now, I think there's five or six partners in the Sydney office, um, yeah, and you know, 30 planners in the office, which help us, you know, day to day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, and there's there's clearly a picture there of this whole multidisciplinary um approach that's evolved over these 50 years. So turn to you, Emily and and Bo, can you explain when you came into the picture and which part of that multidisciplinary landscape that you fit into, please?
SPEAKER_00Um I started in 2013 uh as an architect, and I was the 25th architect in Sydney at the time. Um we've grown to 125 in that period of time. Um so yeah, seeing quite significant growth both in our people but also in the projects that we're doing and we're involved with. And from a multidisciplinary perspective, I think the industry is becoming more and more that way, and that setup of the business also set us up to be collaborating with external parties, and it's something we do a huge amount and that we actually drive and want to do.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I um joined the practice back in 2011, so 15 years ago. Um, I'm an architect, and what I enjoyed probably the most was yeah, this multidisciplinary um world because I had been in a bit of the architectural bubble coming out of um university. I was working for an architectural practice in Bangkok of all places, so this was my first Australian job. And um, yeah, just being exposed to a to a room full of like um we had urban designers that I'd never really considered as part of like how we how we design and how we how we build the um built environment. Interiors downstairs, Andrew and his team making friends with them uh and the planners as well, who were sitting, uh who were you know nearby as well. So it was kind of this eye-opening uh world where yeah, it was beyond just architects, which it really intrigued me.
SPEAKER_02So, what's obviously very interesting is over 50 years, I'm in this very room, we have a real range of time spent and experience. This is like this question's like the serious flip side to the icebreaker, right? And it's not directed at anyone in particular. But what what are the relationships like? What are the dynamics like between the people who've been here for 50 years, between the people who've been here for 11 years, between the person, between those and the person who's been there for three months, between Sydney and Melbourne? What are all of those dynamics like week to week, year to year at the practice?
SPEAKER_04Uh everyone will have probably a slightly different answer. Um I'm working currently with someone who's been with me in the Melbourne Sheater for 45 years, and I'm working with people who've been there for two weeks. So somehow the distinction doesn't really affect my working relationship with those people, apart from the the private knowledge of who they are, etc. So it's a very um open, uh transparent kind of atmosphere that exists. And obviously at my age I enjoy the infusion of young people into the studio and see how they might develop and assist the growth of the firm. And I also enjoy the kind of the culture and camaraderie that comes with working with people like Adam and Andrew over 30 years. So it's a kind of multi-layered um appreciation, you know, that I have coming to work every day and sharing uh work with so many diverse cultures and ages and people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I think it I think it's the other culture of the business, is that the fact that directors have always been hands-on. And they're not sitting in their glass boxes um in the corner um with their three layers of assistance in front of them. I think they've always been pretty much in touch with all of their um members of staff, to be honest. Um, so whether they're brand new or there for 30 years, there's no real hierarchy. That's very flat in a way. Just because you've been there 30 years doesn't necessarily mean you get more attention than the one that's been there for one week, I think, if that's what. The answer is. It's been very open. The director's always been very open, very approachable in design, and they've always walked the room. They have not stayed in their office and you know commanded the ship from afar, to be honest.
SPEAKER_00I think from my experience, um, we've collected more and more people, but many people have actually been in the practice for as long as me or or longer. And so we essentially grow up together and go through pretty significant life experiences together. And that that's building very strong relationships. And then with new starts, um, I think that they very quickly feel comfortable and can feel the relationships that exist. We're there to be friends, we're there to enjoy our days. Um, and yeah, we bring we love bringing new people into that.
SPEAKER_05I think what's also interesting is um there's a lot of um you know founding directors, so Andrew, um Adam, Michael, who have those pre-existing relationships because they they worked in the same architectural practice back at the beginning. What's been interesting is the dynamic between, say, the um newer directors, uh particularly between Melbourne and Sydney, where really all we shared was just we worked for SJB. We weren't working on projects together. There were no real um ways for us to connect apart from just, hey, I'm a new director, let's talk, yeah, and let's compare notes and see um, you know, how do we get through this? And I think then just realizing that there's this real shared culture between the studios um that yeah, has been created by I guess the original directors.
SPEAKER_02Well, it leads me to a next obvious question, which is about what you see as the values which have kept the place together over such a long time as well. Again, some of the speeches last night uh spoke uh mentioned uh relevance, I think was a key idea, uh the sense of kind of innovation of being of centering things around people. But what is it that you think has kept the, however you like to phrase it, the kind of core values or the core identity together that's allowed you to grow and stay relevant over five decades?
SPEAKER_01I'll kick off on that one. I mean, I think um relevance is a good word. Um in the sense I I we're not a particularly fast moving business, I would suggest. We're actually uh we're nimble, but we don't move quickly. We're quite cautious, I'd say, the way in which we work. And to that end, I think I love the saying that um slowly is the fastest way to get to where you want to be. And to that end, there's a lot of it's a lot of discussion and collaboration and discussion about where we want to go, what we want to do. And so it's very transparent from that point of view. It's very um, there's a lot of communication that happens. So I think that's helped us stay together, that's helped us retain a sense of shared values uh about you know what are our what are our ethics and moral, uh, what's our ethics and moral position on certain types of projects or the way in which we want to engage, or you know, what what drives us to be um talking to each other? And I think at least I think the complexity that is happening within um the built environment and the complexity in the world really is in our projects, right? The kind of projects that come through the door are more complex every time we get a new project coming in. I think we enjoy that complexity. We enjoy that challenge of what's the how do we make how do we make this simpler and how do we how do we make it civic? How do we make it simpler and how do we make it civic? So, how do we take something which might seem particularly bland from a brief point of view, but give it a civic presence, which means that it's more than the bit that someone asks us to deliver?
SPEAKER_02So, Adam, I know you as uh the Sydney face of a lot of more recent projects which have gained a uh you know a lot of prominence, um, Key Quarter Lanes, Surreas Village, these kind of projects. Perhaps you and and um some of our more recent entrants to the business can can you give us a picture of where things are at today in terms of what kind of projects are you doing? What kind of projects, what kind of work do you think has defined the practice in the period of say the last five or ten years or so?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think from my point of view, it's the mixed-use projects. It's that collection of a bit of commercial, a bit of retail, a bit of community, bit of residential. Uh, they're more precinct-based projects rather than individual buildings. Um, I think we're very focused on the spaces that exist between things as opposed to the thing itself. And so we love collaborating with other architects. That's kind of another component of uh kind of our, you know, if you if you're to choose the project that you want to do next, it's one that's got a bit of everything in it and there's it's big enough that you can have a number of architects involved. I think that idea of an organic growth of a project in a quite a succinct period of time is something that really drives us. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think if we link it back to the values of the business, it's also about us as individuals leaning into our skill sets and together we complement each other rather than competing. And I think that we take a similar value into projects. It's like, how do you get all the uses together that complement each other? None should compete in a similar way. How do we work with other people? We want to complement each other, not compete. And I think that theme runs through the way we operate and also in the way that we think about city making in projects. Um, and I think more and more, even if there's not a civic component to the brief, we find a way to bring that in. We find a way for public to engage with all projects, private or not. Um, but also there are more and more of those uses coming into the brief. And we were quite well versed in making sure that we're designing out conflicts and um ensuring that this becomes a place that all people feel comfortable from a cultural perspective as well.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so milestone projects over 50 years. I think the easiest way to do this might just be to go around the table, actually. Could each one of you highlight one or two projects that either you've worked on or that you particularly admire in the practice, maybe that was particularly difficult at the time. Whatever you want to bring out, but we'll uh we'll start with you again, Emily, and we'll go around the table. Um, a project from any place, any scale in the last 50 years.
SPEAKER_00I'll mention two, which is Loftus Lane, Key Corders, um, which was our first real collaborative project with um five architects, and we were coordinating all of that, coming together in a very tight, very complex site. But we were able to actually take that process to Newcastle, and I grew up in Newcastle, um, and so I had extreme pride around introducing to Newcastle that typology and that type of process uh that really raised the bar for uh public infrastructure in private development in the centre of town.
SPEAKER_06I think I think for mine, really, I guess for BMG Garage, firstly it was challenging. We had done hospitality on Crown Casino, but we hadn't actually done such a foreign restaurant and a foreign restaurant in another city. Really challenging. We were literally on the fax machine back then. Um, so delivering a project remotely, um, coming to Sydney and the demands of the project being delivered on time, a restaurant costs a fortune and it has to be open. You know, you can't miss the opening theatre. If you miss it, you are done. It's not like someone's house they can keep on renting. You have missed it. I remember it's very challenging in that respect. Very challenging in just getting all the permits, to be honest, you know, um dealing with different councils, you know, we're we're Victorian, we weren't in New South Wales, they had a different liquor license and all that bananas. We didn't actually even get it on the night, believe it or not. It actually came late. Thankfully, they weren't selling wine, um, and you're allowed to have a private function, but otherwise, they didn't get their liquor license, you know, for quite a little while, to be honest. So everything was a private function, inexpensive private function for about two weeks. But it was challenging in that respect, is that we, you know, we were novices at it to be a certain degree. I know I know we had a great team of um architects and all those things that facilitated the documentation custom and all um and all that with the uh thoroughness there and the site meetings and all that. But it really did launch us into a new um arena, I guess, both in Sydney, I guess, as our introduction, and led to so many other larger commissions like establishment and all the rest of it. Um and set the profile for us that we weren't renowned for in Melbourne. So it was really re-identified the SJB interiors and architecture business um in one project. And thank God it worked.
SPEAKER_05Um for me, I think it was uh 180 Flinders Street, uh a large commercial building that we did for Dexus. Um so for me, it was again the the complexity of the site. We had um heritage components, we were building um, you know, 20,000 square meters of office space over an existing and operational car park. Um, there was multiple frontages connecting into laneways. It was in this iconic position across the road from um Flinder Street Station next to St. Paul's and Federation Square. So for me, it was quite a um prominent project for me coming to Melbourne, you know, this little country boy, and then working in one of the most kind of you know intense, iconic spots in in Melbourne. So, and and what was also really interesting is it was one of my first projects that I started on when I was a graduate, and then I delivered it um uh just before I became a director. So over eight or nine years. So yeah, it was pretty incredible to see that evolve across my entire career at SJB.
SPEAKER_04And I'm still thinking which strategy, but probably personally like satisfaction, not necessarily for the business. Um, it was um the start of SJB's relationship with BMW. So um we were introduced to the potential of um building BMW Australia's uh headquarters in in Australia, they'd never had a headquarters here, so that headquarters was going to incorporate a massive warehouse for all their parts, the showroom, um, workshop, um, administration. Uh so it was a big project, and at the time, probably one of the biggest ones we'd ever done. And after we uh won the project in a very unusual way, I think I spoke about it last night, you know, taking photos of a BMW car that I already owned, um, and and uh buildings that we had uh done in the past, particularly residences. We sold the idea that we were an appropriate person. So I ended up going with uh a project manager to Munich to talk to the corporate architect in Germany, and we were told we had to follow all the rules, etc. Uh and uh I came back on an aeroplane by myself and sketched the kind of first idea for that project on a napkin. I think we in a quantus flight. I think I've still got that napkin, and um and that's how the building ended up. I don't know why why I had that uh thought, but I wanted to get away from most of the hard corporate look that I'd seen in other um BMW projects in Europe and ended up designing this kind of curbaceous, modernist, very simple um building. So yeah, we delivered that. And what why I've I think it was important that in itself, because it then allowed us to deliver a whole series of BMW uh showrooms in Melbourne and Sydney, and we became BMW's corporate architect, protecting their brand in Australia for over 12 years, I think. So we viewed every dealership design that every other um dealer wanted uh to have approved by BMW, BMW uh SJB were involved in that process. So it was a great era for us, and I'm still driving a BMW, and uh yeah, it's a it was a um an amazing initial project which led to like a 12 to 15 year relationship.
SPEAKER_06And I think I think um just to add to that, I think BMW quoted them as doing BMW better than they did, actually back in Munich. And so you can understand the strength of the architecture that does come through. If you go and have a look at the headquarters down there, it's still a very, very strong building, it's very bauted, it's very minimal, yeah, it's very clean, and it's better than theirs. I used to work in Germany and the BMW tribes are pretty bad actually.
SPEAKER_01Um for me, I mean, I think it's hard to pick up single projects. I think often it's about the relationships. And I think um I've done a couple of projects for a single client in Sydney, which uh is my Michael Grant, who's uh become a really good friend. And I think the series of projects we've done with him, which was Casbar, which was I think was a really great um case study project in Sydney around a kind of starting mix of uses. Uh, then we kind of went into Yarima Place, which was the adaptive reuse of the Church of Christ Christ Scientists in Darlinghurst, and then um Reservoir Street um down in Surrey Hills as an office building. And I like the trajectory of those projects and learning through uh you know what worked and what didn't work, and and it's not so much about the project, but more about what worked and what didn't work with the client. Uh it's famous, I famously tell people that Michael is the only client that's made me cry in the office. Um and it wasn't because he was nasty to me, it was just he did the whole dad thing. I'm just a bit disappointed. Um, and it was about kind of pushing me to go a bit harder. So I really I kind of enjoy that. Um I enjoy that that process. Um and I really love those buildings. I think they're they're for me, they're really quite special.
SPEAKER_02Great, thanks everyone. I have one question for you, Michael, and then a final question just for the floor to finish us off. Obviously, 50 years of of creating and building your practice doesn't come without difficulties and hardships. So without being too negative, but can you share uh any experiences or reflections where uh where things have been difficult and things that you've you've you know endured and come through to build this over 50 years?
SPEAKER_04Um yeah, there's been lots of occasions over 50 years where we've had to kind of yeah, you know, really pull together and get through a difficult time. And they're obviously well known. The COVID was a you know emotionally a draining experience, not just for us, but for the whole city in Melbourne. Um and I still don't think we've recovered fully from that, uh, the effects of that. Um the the GFC uh didn't affect us that greatly because somehow the kind of momentum was still there from the previous years to keep us keep us going. But the biggest downturn we had was the in the late 80s, 1990, when um you know everything almost just stopped overnight and we went from I don't know 40 or 50 to 15 and we got rid of associates and it was a terrible time. But um again, the kind of commitment from the people at the top and in leadership was uh resolute. Um we kind of knew what we had to do, it was really hard letting people go. Um we are, and you know, we've talked about the culture of the business. We're really respectful of every human that works with us. We know they've got a family, and we know they've got obligations, and we know they've got their own personal issues, and we don't want to add to those by problems in the office. So, you know, I kind of constantly say, you know, we we're required as directors to rock up every morning and smile and be happy when we know there's real problems behind what everyone else understands. But uh yeah, we've had we've had fortunately people around this table and the original founders, Alan and Charles, had that kind of common resolve to get through and to go through a difficult time knowing that we're gonna come out of it because the strength of um personal the personal relationships could got us through you know the hard times.
SPEAKER_02Great. Let's finish briefly on the future. Where do you all see SJB in one year, five years, ten years, another 50 years? Some remote island somewhere.
SPEAKER_01It's a good question. I mean, I think um, you know, where do you see the office in 50 years? I think we're we're about to head into an incredibly changing profession, I'd say. Um the the delivery of uh built environment, whether it's urban design, planning, architecture, or interiors, is gonna radically change over the next five years, and we will almost not be able to recognize the profession very quickly, I would suggest. Um, but I think the thing that uh I would like to see is bringing is is as a practice uh and as a studio, bringing design thinking forward in whatever we do. So thinking about the way in which design thinking can elevate society. Um, you know, there's no such thing as no design. There's either good design or bad design. You can't everything's designed, it's just the degree to which it is. So I think from my point of view, I'm really keen on um creating a in a studio environment which respects diversity. It has difference, um, it has a variety of different people um contributing to it. And I think you know that more is more in that regard. Uh, and that that creates an environment where you can do some design thinking, which does actually lead to better outcomes for communities and societies. Because ultimately, we're more interested in people than I mean, we're interested in buildings, obviously, right? That's kind of an obvious thing, but I think we're more interested in people and creating a kind of experience for people to live a better life. Um, it's kind of what, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think that from an experience point of view, that will extend to our process and how we loop people in and how we keep that as being relevant and actually leaning into the human element of design. Um there's technology, obviously, that's going to change the capacity of design with more people, but it'll be about how we bring people on a journey and differentiate ourselves through process and through relationships.
SPEAKER_06I I think I think for the interiors businesses, it's gonna be challenged to be honest in 50 years. Because um I think you know, we've um it really depends on um the people that take you know the business through, to be honest. But I do agree with Adam that it's probably gonna become more seamless, actually, that interiors won't be a profession by itself. You know, it'd just be a quarter studio and that's it. Do you know? And breaking down that being between architecture, industrial, or landscape or whatever, would just be caught design, as you're saying. And I think um, you know, the blurring the blur blurring the professions already occurs. So um, but as far as an interior perspective, I think it's um it's I think it's very challenging as a profession um because it's treated quite fashionably. Um and it's very hard to maintain a business that's fashion related, to be honest, is you go out of fashion. So the only way you can, I think, survive another 50 years or sort of in try and set up a practice that goes forward is to remain ahead of it or beyond fashion, I had to say. But we are treated as fashion, I hate to say it.
SPEAKER_05I was just gonna say, too, it's sort of been touched on um previously, but yeah, technology, you know, AI. And I think the challenge that we've got is how do we make sure that um creativity is not replaced by AI and how we can use AI to maybe, you know, streamline administration and all those kind of things that we're you know, increasingly as architects um and designers having to be burdened with um to free us up to actually do the creative stuff. So AI needs to be kind of harnessed in that way rather than you know what you're currently seeing, which is to replace creativity.
SPEAKER_04Um I I see as as Adam and Andrew have said, that design will continue to play a very prominent part in the world, um whether it's core fashion or not. Um so I always I'm confident and believe that architects will survive. I'm not quite sure whether they'll do things in the same way, but what I really know and I say to young students or young professionals is we we should remember that the lay person looks at us as being someone very special. And that is we've got the ability to think in three dimensions, and very few people uh have that ability, maybe apart from AI, but we'll always have that kind of intangible quality of coming up with an idea or something new or something innovative. And about the future, then I think that um I'm confident when I know I'm sitting in the room with these people, that they've got the emotional intelligence to drive a business forward. And to me, you know, that's the greatest asset that a leader can have, that he understands how people think, he understands what he's got to do to motivate them, and he's got to have the self-assuredness to be a leader. Yeah, so yeah, I'm confident that we will be around in 50 years.
SPEAKER_02All right, well, Michael, Adam, Andrew, Emily, Bo, thanks so much for joining me and congratulations.
SPEAKER_04Thanks. Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening to this episode of Stories in Design. Please subscribe and review, and you can find out all about what we do at in the DesignLive.com