Tom Kundig

The renowned American architect stopped by to record a STORIESINDESIGN episode with Timothy Alouani-Roby, delving into his philosophies of design, the landscapes that inspire his work, his impressions of Australia and the commonalities between rural and urban sites. 

STORIESINDESIGN

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm not a psychologist or anthropologist or a sociologist, so take this as a grain of salt, but it seems like I really get along um just with with people that are on sort of the edge of the frontier, if that makes sense. So I grew up in the kind of the what people might say is the edge of the frontier. It's the the west side of uh North America. Um and if I went up to Alaska, I was on that edge. Um most Canadians, you know, are within 100 feet of a he vast piece of ground up to the north. Um, I get along with that. It's almost there's a there's a uh a spirit um of adventure, I think, because you are really on the edge.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Hello and welcome to another episode of Stories in Design. My name is Timothy Alwanirobi, and I'm joined by Tom Kundig, who I suspect needs no introduction for our listeners. He joined me in person at the Commons in Sydney on Gaddy Country on the same day that he appeared at Sydney Opera House for a talk during a wider visit to Australia. Hope you enjoy the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Architects know a lot about a little, um, and you have to recognize that. And you the people you work with know um a lot about um they know a little about a lot. I misspoke. And then you have to work with people that know a lot about a little. So they can you can focus on, you know, the steel or the wood or the fabrication or whatever it might be, because we know something about all those um subjects and those skills uh industries, but we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

That is one of the elements that drew me actually into this world, the idea that the architect has to be the master generalist, really. Like to be a good architect, you really have to know a bit about all these different fields.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

You do, yeah. Well, and then you're taking it with more respect at the um at the uh uh fabricator level, you know, because you can actually communicate. And if you're you approach it relatively humble, um, and you say, hey, I'm me here to learn from you, and which you are, gosh, there's so many doors that open up and new new ideas and new thoughts. Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Well, it looks like we're already into it, so I'll say a formal, uh formal welcome to you, Tom. Thanks for joining me today. Uh, I do usually start with one icebreaker question that I haven't mentioned in advance, so I'll just put you on the spot with it. It's very simple, uh, which is to invite you to ask me anything that you like. It's usually the other way around. And I've found that people quite enjoy the chance to um, not that you know anything about me or oh, we've met more than five minutes previously, but is there anything on your mind this morning here in CBC?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Because of your background, um, in particular, your architecture background and it and now as a as a journalist, writer, and um I wonder what you think is happening in the world of architecture. It's constantly changing for me, but um, it is right in the middle of a bit of a of a revolution. Well, evolution. I want to always say evolution. I don't think it's a revolution. What's happening?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Well, this actually I I'd have a bit of a question in mind to ask you about this, which is I guess it's at the intersection of traditions of craft and then obviously things like AI and the big talking point at the moment. So that the that's the immediate kind of site that that springs to mind for me. The it brings up questions about how architects and designers are educated. And um I think there's all these questions around the role of the architect as a professional specialist and someone who comes through a school who learns to you know use computer programs and and um abstract buildings into plans and drawings and whatnot, versus a hands-on craft tradition. And actually the paradoxical thing that AI I guess I generally have a critical take on it, but actually one of the paradoxical things is it could open up more space for architects to actually become more specialists back in a in a hands-on kind of fashion. So I I have more questions than answers in that space, but that's the that's the kind of area that would spring to mind for me.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's in the middle of a uh of an evolution. Uh, and it's been, I've been in this business, you know, as you know, my my dad was an architect. So as an observer, as a voyeur of what you know architects did and what they're doing, in many ways, the conversation is no different than what happened in the 60s. The conflict between academics and practice and you know who's doing what as an architect. Are they really full service architects or are they just um you know at a certain level? It's the same conversation. It's just that I think your point is spot on. The tools are different. AI is a is a tool. Um, it can be misused, it can be used in a in a positive way. We certainly have a group um of um uh specialists as an over overstatement, um, just looking into how we can use AI um in our in our own work um at a higher level. Digital fabrication, to your point, um, is a big deal. Um, certainly in North America, we work with a a group out of uh out of Nelson, British Columbia, and they're digital fabricators of of wood um parts and pieces. And frankly, they work around the world for a number of of well-known architects, um, basically generating parts and pieces for the the work around the world. But it's an interesting time.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

It is. I I I all ordinarily we'll start with a bit of basic in in uh information about yourself, but we'll actually come back to that because we're already on a thread here that's very interesting. It makes me think of I think descriptions of your work or your architectural philosophy uh about being at the intersection of industry and craft or industrial traditions and craft. That seems close to what we're talking about here. And it's I guess it's that idea that with the technology, like does it control us or do we use it to an end that that we want to use it for, such as AI or such as industrial or industrial processes? Yeah. How would you conceptualize that what you've done with the with the idea of industrial industry meets craft in your career?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Well, it's a it's a good question because I'm kind of a kind of an old guy. I come from the hand drawing tradition, all the technical drawings, all the design drawings. Um, I don't do as many technical drawings as I as I certainly did in my past. I mean, we have a tradition in our office, and this is directly um important to the answer, is that we expect everybody to work on projects all the way um with the principal in charge um from uh scribbles, ideas, scribbles, all the way through construction administration. And every phase is going through some sort of evolution, even the scribble phase, the design development phase, um, construction document phase, uh, and then certainly construction administration. So everything is changing, but it's always changed. And I think I know this might be somewhat controversial, but I know what I experienced. And in our own office, I experienced the first um change from uh hand drawing, drafting, everything to um uh to getting into AutoCAD and early, and I will say really thuggish and really um ham-handed technologies, right? Technologies always have to go through some sort of transition. Our work suffered during those years of of AutoCAD, Revit, you know, I you know, as sophisticated as those projects seemed and as overpromised as those um systems seemed. At the end of the day, when you really did go through the buildings that we generated, we delivered, I didn't feel they're at the same, same level. Uh they didn't have uh which I think is important uh at an architecture uh as architecture, is it's not about the big idea only, it's also about how it feels, how what's the nuance, what are those sort of almost poetic little moments? It was I think technology, misused technology can really strip um that next level. Is it important in general for the building industry? I'm not sure, but for us, that's really important. That you go into a building and it's like a listening to a piece of music that's really great. The first time you listen to it, maybe you don't understand it completely. The more you go back, the better and better and better it gets. Movies are like that, books are like that. Um, we hope that the work we're generating is like that. The more you live there, the more you um experience the space, the better it gets. Um, I do I think um there's been something lost when we've lost the hand in a lot of those drawings. Because even when you're doing technical drawings, you were making nuanced little quiet changes, and you were also aware of the edges of the paper. Um with a screen, you're somewhat sometimes more limited. So it's a long answer to say, um, now, of course, AI is the subject of, and I think it's going to continue to change. I think at some point technology is going to be as good, as effective as um analog hand-drawn generation, if that makes sense. Um, it just it's maybe getting there. It's just not there yet. And but we use every piece of we're we're on Revit, we're on all the the render programs, and certainly we're studying AI and how to use it as a tool best we can.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah, very interesting. Okay, we might we might end up back on some of that territory, but but let me uh let me very simply ask you uh tell us who you are, a bit about your background and also what brings you to Australia at this time.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Well, yeah, I'm Tom Kundig. Um I'm um uh owner, founder at Olsen Kundig Architects. I've been with the firm for about uh 40 years, I guess. Uh joined Jim Olson, the O, um, in Olsen Kundig, um uh in 1986. And then I've been a owner since I think 1996. The firm, um, on my background is again, I'm kind of mentioned this earlier. My dad was an architect, and the last thing I wanted to be was an architect. Um, so I kind of left in a way, kind of spiritually, I guess, um, the world of architecture. But I can't deny that as I kind of turn back into um the world of architecture, um, that influence, even as somebody that really was avoiding uh any influence from the architecture world was extremely important. I was lucky. Um I was also lucky to be around a bunch of artists. I was lucky there are a number of things that I was involved in, including mountain climbing, mountain skiing, and working on hot rods that they all kind of conspired to really help my career. And it's all most of it is outside of architecture. Um, and I actually think sometimes those sources of inspiration are some of the most important. Great.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Um, and what's the purpose specifically for the visit to Australia this this week?

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Well, it's the book of uh book number five just came out. It's called uh Complete Houses, which of course the title scares the hell out of me because when they brought it up, it it kind of implied that it's over, you know. I'm not it it's it's everything in a in a in a box. Uh it's not. Um, and I'm currently working on the second volume, which is gonna be everything that are uh it's not residential that I'm working on. So 50% of my um practice is residential work, and that's really important. Um, as a um I call it the R and D, um, sort of learning the scales, you know, uh practice and working with small teams, really small teams, so that um young um architects can really work closely with the architecture from beginning to end. And then there's this other part of the practice that's getting into relatively for us, relatively large projects. And it includes museums and um uh wineries, um uh cultural projects, um, uh and now um oddly enough, uh sports facilities. So and it continues to change, it continues to evolve. We we kind of have a uh uh philosophy. Well, I don't know if it's a philosophy, but it's a it's just an idea in the office that the client is as important, if not maybe more important, than the project type. Because we're looking for to work with uh uh uh closely with a client as as a colleague.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Oh, in terms of like what the right fit is, it's more important that it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah, are they will are they um are they interested in what they're doing, what we're doing? Are they interested in engaging in a in a conversation and exploring ideas, maybe taking risks occasionally? Um it's really so client-based. I mean, we don't exist without clients, so we're looking for um clients to frankly work with. Project again is probably I mean, sacred spaces, of course. There are all sorts of you you you just are looking for the right fit um as a client.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Great. So on the book, uh I can't say I've read it every single page right the way through, but I had a I had a good look through. It's it's very impressive. And I noticed down a couple of short quotes from the preface that I'd like to uh throw back at you uh as a way to unpack a little bit of it. So I noticed one line which is quote, architecture is not the center of the world, unquote. Uh or end quote. So that I mean that seems to speak a little bit to what you just said about how your own experience has gone through all these different fields. Is that the kind of thing that you had in mind?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Um sorta, you know, um I grew up in a large landscape, you know, um eastern, um, it's sort of the Pacific Northwest, which also includes Canada, uh, Idaho, and Montana. And those are huge landscapes. And when you as a kid grow up and experience those large landscapes, it kind of puts things in perspective that um things are way bigger than you are as a uh as a um a being. Um, and then of course I was interested in um geophysics um as a kid, and I was interested in just you know, with uh astrophysics not that I was interested in studying astrophysics, that is so above my um uh brain level, but it really puts things in perspective where we are, what we represent, um, what is our relationship to the real reality, which is the cosmic reality. And um, because I got a little maybe a little more of a science um rational instinct, um, I just can recognize that um the architecture is there to experience that larger um context, whatever it is, if it's an urban context or if it's a rural context, uh the architecture is just the shelter, uh not in the middle, off to the side.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

So you mentioned urban and rural, and that did make me think to ask about that kind of uh division, if you like, because by definition, right, most architects and designers are are gonna end up working in urban environments because it's the majority of the built environment.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Where a lot of us live.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah. So when you talk about perspective and the sense of reality being bigger than it's something that a human builds, that seems inseparable from this idea of working in non-urban environments, or at least you know, you're not in the center of Manhattan doing your buildings, you're in maybe mountainous landscapes or whatever. Is is that fair, or or can it work in both?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Well no, we've worked in both. Um, done projects in the center of Manhattan, you know, we're still working. We have an office in in Manhattan, and uh we do a lot of work in um dense um uh urban environments. And, you know, there of course on the surface, there are differences between urban environments and and big, large rural uh uh environments, but it's the same thing. You're learning from those environments. Um it's overworked word, but context is ultimately the basis of, for me, the basis of making an architecture that is specific to its location. So the more you can understand, learn, um, and think about where this act is happening, um, the more uh meaningful I think that that piece of architecture is. And then if you're really thinking about how that architecture is in that context, the architecture is going to be not background, but something that just sort of filters in and out into that into that background.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, the image in my mind is something like you could have two buildings in in polar opposite environments on the surface of things, uh something in the center of Manhattan and something in uh the middle of the Rocky Mountains, right? Um and they could be more similar to each other in the sense that each one's attuned to its context. Yes. Whereas you could have one that's you know uh totally out of tune with its context. And that's right.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah, is that the kind of idea you they would might they probably won't look the same because it the context is all about, you know, sort of the science of the place, which has a lot to do, I think, with the envelope and how it's made and how it's constructed and what it's made from. But the instinct of being part of that context, of being influenced by that context, is absolutely spot on the same, I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Okay. I have one more quote to throw back at you from the this one's a good one. Uh quote, architecture is the elemental source of all our collective history. End quote. What did you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Can you read that one again? Because because I don't remember saying it, but I think I know what my meaning is.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yeah, and I actually might have cut a bit out of the middle here. I might have shortened the quote, but it's um um architecture is the elemental source of all our collective history.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Well, okay, so I think what I I meant there is that the the the act of building is one of the three most important things we are um that uh lead to our survival. It's you know, food, water, shelter. And we're making shelter, regardless if it's a tent or if it's a large um uh sports facility um for a for a club. So it really does reflect our where we are, how we act, and what seems to be important. It it um so anytime you study a culture, I think you study an architecture, and it tells you a lot about what are the priorities, what was important, um, how did that um how did that culture see its place in its environment, if that makes sense. So I think it's kind of like a book, right? Well, in fact, uh there is a a a great quote, I think, from um, let's see, it was Lynn Lin uh Linden, uh one of uh uh one of my uh mentor or my heroes in a way, uh Bill Turnbull's uh business partner in Linden, Donald Linden said something like Architecture is just the remnant from uh a whole bunch of people putting their work and spirit into uh a thing. And when they're gone, um their um their sort of spirit, and you know, maybe I I'm not sure I call it a spirit, but it is the the tangible result of that effort. So it's kind of it's it's kind of like a record, it's kind of like a recording.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, it's it's a it's a very beautiful idea that that idea that yeah, a culture it doesn't have to leave behind or it can express itself in some way. It's almost like an archaeological image.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Are there places I did want to ask you at some point about your sources of inspiration on that kind of point? Are there places in the world that aren't home, other cultures, other other environments that you find yourself traveling to or looking to for inspiration on that kind of level?

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Oh yeah. I mean, there are places I've been that maybe are almost sometimes uncomfortable or sometimes totally comfortable, but so powerful. Now, of course, some of those are landscapes. So I'm I'm lucky to live in a part of the world that has just unbelievable landscapes from the high deserts to the mountains to the shore. Um, those become deeply meaningful places. And maybe, I'm gonna take a stretch here, maybe the most meaningful place for me. You know, it's a place of peace, it's a place of thinking, it's a place of imagining where and what um everything is about. But then there are our architectural um meaningful places and cultures. Um and uh it, you know, you don't want to exclude anybody, but sometimes I can think back on my life and my career. I think um just spending a little bit of time in Japan, um, spending a little time in in in South America, you know, these are different cultures. Um they're still dealing with the same principles of climate and gravity, but they have a they have a different way of of seeing it. So if I go to those places, um and there is sort of something about the way they um engage that that environment that's meaningful to me, I find it incredibly inspirational. And there are other ways, of course. Um, well gosh, how many countries in Europe they're so different from each other and the way they engage their natural environment, you know, from maybe the Italian hill towns to um London, you know, they're they're different. There's some major differences there. And I just find it fascinating. It's almost an impossible answer. Um, because it's just what I think what architects are supposed to do, we're supposed to be professional voyeurs, we're supposed to look at everything and think about it and be inspired, frankly, by it, because there's always something important in everything that you experience. Because we make something that people experience. So if you can bring those tools, those experience tools to a design, your designing's gonna be more meaningful, I think.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah, and when I ask that question, it's it's not with a kind of supremacist idea in mind that you know one culture is better than another. 100%. But I it it it reminds Me again of what we said earlier about context in the sense of it's not that you would go to somewhere in South America and copy the building. What you're I think what you get an inspiration from is one cultural expression of architecture might be really appropriate for its place. And you're interested in what makes it appropriate or contextual.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

100%. I was just really, as always, if I come down to Australia, I try to have dinner or lunch with Glenn Merkitt, you know, really true, wonderful person and a wonderful architect. And he, every time I see him, because he knew I lived in Alaska, he always tells me about going up um into uh into the North um territories there. And um, I've never actually, even though I worked up there, I was in a different part of the North Slope, but he would, I forgot the name of the the town he went to, but he saw these bone houses, and these are houses that are made from the tusks of you know walruses. Um and he's just totally, you know, excited about how they were made, why they were made. Um, and I understand completely because he's not doing bone houses, you know, but he he uh just sees I think the one-to-one relationship between what uh survival meant, shelter meant um in that environment, and was uh inspired by it.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah, wonderful. Have you seen Glenn on this trip?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yes, saw him a couple of days ago. Uh we had dinner with um he and Wendy, and as always, just fantastic. Catching up.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Beautiful. Uh well, that leads me very nicely, actually, to ask you about your wider experience in and perceptions of Australia. What what's your history of of visiting and knowledge of this country?

SPEAKER_01 23:38

You know, that's a really good question. Um, I I finished a project a number of years ago, I think it's like seven years ago, in Bilgola Bay. Um, and before that, I think I came through with a lecture series um with the steel industry. Um, there's so for some reason, there seems to be an in uh um an interest in the way I solve problems. Maybe there's it's kind of a parallel, you know. And over the years, I've of course I've I've gotten to know Glenn, I've gotten to know Peter Stutchberry and and Shod Godsall, and these are contemporaries, these are colleagues. Um when we first met, it was almost as if we had known each other for a long time. Um, and we hadn't. Uh it had a lot to do with maybe instincts about what we do and how we think. And I think there's a um, there's sort of a, there's a there's kind of a comfort level relationship between Australia, I think, and or at least me on the west coast of North America. And and um I I just try to come back here as as as often I can as often as I can. So something like this book tour, of course, I'm gonna jump at this in a nanosecond. Um finishing a project in um uh New Zealand. Hopefully, you know, occasionally a little project pops up in both um uh countries, and I can continue to come back.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, great. And it strikes me on the point about maybe there's some instinctive level of connection with Australia. I mean, what one of the obvious ways is this is a an enormous continental landscape with uh vast uh you know, vast swathes of nature that aren't um turned into built environment. And I mean, it's a trite thing to make like like a direct comparison with with your parts of North America, but is there something in that compared to say a place like London or well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

I I think there isn't. Somebody asked me that kind of that question, and it led me into thinking about what really maybe there is a uh somewhat of a um a common thread um in um spirit, and and I'm not a psychologist or anthropologist or a sociologist, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems like I really get along um just with with people that are on sort of the edge of the frontier, if that makes sense. So I grew up in the kind of the what people might say is the edge of the frontier. It's the the west side of uh North America. Um and if I went up to Alaska, I was on that edge. Um most Canadians, you know, are within 100 feet of a he vast piece of ground up to the north. Um, I get along with that. It's almost there's a there's a spirit um of adventure, I think, because you are really on the edge. And maybe it's aspirational only, but it's aspirational and it's possible. If you're in London, you're not at the edge necessarily of a vast, sometimes dangerous, sometimes challenging um uh uh landscape, if that makes if that makes sense. And I think New Zealand has that same kind of character. Uh there's you know, people that get attracted to those places, like our ancestors that got attracted to those edges, I think that it kind of permeates through the the culture. Now, over time that may change might change. Of course, London used to be an edge um at some point for the Roman Empire, and that was uh interesting time. Well, if you get up into Scotland, of course, it's a it's a different. I mean, it's a complicated question, and I'm not sure I have a fully, fully worked out answer, but it seems like I am attracted to those places that are um sort of pushing that boundary into big, wild landscapes.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah, well, I mean, your very last words there, I think maybe answer this this question that I want to ask on the back of that, which is you talking about an edge, a boundary, a frontier. It all makes sense in terms of adventure, but then it begs the question, well, the frontier of what? Or frontier from what? And is it and it is it is it is it is it the the binary between landscape and settled places, or or is it is it something more conceptual than that?

SPEAKER_01 27:56

We don't know, you know. No, it's um it I don't know really how to clearly answer that question. Um I I you know if I just made it as simple as possible, it's if I'm in a well, in fact, sometimes I'll I'll use this description when I'm doing work in a really big natural landscape, a mountain landscape or a high desert landscape, um, it's pretty challenging out there. And for me, an agenda for making a place like maybe a resort or a or a hut or whatever, I try to always say, I'm trying to make the shelter feel as comfortable as and safe as possible, but also kind of imply that there's something out there that is kind of audacious and exciting and maybe slightly dangerous, but you want that prospect, you want that refuge, which of course are old terms. And I think you can really stretch those that idea of prospect and refuge in the on those edges, on those places.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah, fascinating. Um I'd I'd like to maybe touch again a little bit more on the idea about the the the hands-on or the the analog or the material qualities of your work. When I so in in in the last week or two, and um kind of loosely preparing for this and chatting to a few friends around Australian architecture, and you know, what do you think of Tom? What do you know about his work? This is the thing that comes up again and again. I suppose it's that in the landscape idea. Um so that as a perception from the outside, it's this interest in in uh if it's fair to say that like the emphasis that you put on a a hands-on connection with materials or or or or maybe more than that, it's the uh it's the ability to you know have analog controls in a building.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

100%.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Can you tell me about where that comes from and why you think it's valuable?

SPEAKER_01 29:42

I think it came from the way I was raised and the time I spent in the mountains and the big landscape. I I was raised in a an area that had huge um uh kind of terrible uh infrastructure, um, you know, silver mines and smelters, lead smelters, and um obviously huge environmental disasters. And I worked in sawmills as a kid. Um, I worked on hot rods, and um, I was a mountain climber. And of course, mountain climbing is all about engineering with your hands and these devices. So, for whatever reason, I'm making no excuses. I've always been fascinated with um how things can work using um the physics, this sort of the natural physics of nature, the seven uh machines and then and all of that. Um, not that I'm a you know, I I'm I'm lucky to work with people that really understand it at a at almost a genius level. I don't, I just understand it enough to be not only fascinated by it, but know how to kind of approach it um and get into it. So it's always been materials, um, um rock, steel, concrete, you know, wood. Um those are just natural materials that come from well, steel. You could argue with concrete and steel. I that's a that's a no-win argument if those are natural materials. But they um they are the uh a material that's been um that comes from a real natural source and it actually gets better with time than it than uh when it's fresh out of the box. I don't know. That's the best way I can kind of answer that. That analog, maybe it's because I grew up with artists that actually made their own sculptures and new and the and all the nuances that kind of came into the sculpture were were because they actually worked on them. They actually didn't have somebody else build them. And that's what architects we need somebody else to build them. Historically, we were we also also were the builders. Um, we sort of that's been sort of bifurcated that between building and and drawing. But a lot of artists didn't, they make their own thing, whether it's a painting, whether it's a sculpture, um, and uh, you know, some musicians are composers, you know. I don't know. So there's always been for for me, there's always been a real relationship between the hand, the body, and then the things we make. And the closer those things happen to us, um, the better, I think.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

And and the you mentioned that relationship, and the other relationship that that feels right next to that is kind of between the intuitive on the one hand, yeah, and then you know, an engineering or technical proficiency on the other, right? And bear with me here, because I'm I'm sure there are specialists or or interpreters of your work with much better knowledge who've who've said this already in much better ways, right? But it it strikes me that the more you talk that there is a real balance between those two poles, they're not seen as in conflict like they often can be. And it's a bit like um, you know, uh, what's it called? Um the Zen motorcycle diary. Uh, Zen motorcycle.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yeah, like uh Zen on the motorcycle maintenance.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, right? Yeah. It's it's is there something in is is is that the how you'd phrase that yourself?

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Uh completely. And and Zen was a really important book when I was like a 16-year-old. In fact, Pearsig was a professor in a in a nearby uh university to my hometown. So there's a lot of connections to what he was writing, what he was saying. Um, there are all sorts of other publications that I think touch on that and kind of resonate with me, actually. Um, and I don't think I and I don't even know who said it, but somebody said the the successful uh architecture, whatever that means, is the intersection between the poetic and the rational. And I think that was a natural for me to to leave the rational world of physics and kind of re-engage the poetic uh world of art. Um the world of architecture has been like I can't, I I I pinch myself. I'm so lucky to be in this industry. It uh it addresses my sense of adventure, my sense of rational thinking, my sense of poetry thinking. Um, it kind of mixes together um with others, you know, as team um workers or team players or colleagues. So it's kind of an ideal um profession for me because of that intersection between the rational and and there's no, I don't think there's any conflict. Somebody did ask me a really good question though once. Um, they said, Is it when you start a blank piece of paper, you're looking at it, is it a rational start or is it a poetic start? And I thought, oh, that's a good question. And for me, it was an easy answer, but it was um, it was a really good question. I've never really run into that one. Of course, it would for me it would be rational because I'm trying to think what are all the vectors that are affecting this. And then as they those vectors are sort of understood, and um you you you then take it into a poetic um next step.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

So it's like you need the framework, this the structure, the parameters that have a rational element in order to free up the 100%.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

I'm not an artist, I'm not somebody that could just look at a um empty piece of paper and just dart, you know, that's not that's not gonna. I wouldn't know you know, I wouldn't know what am I starting, where am I going, what what's going on. And that's just the way I think. But and others think completely differently, and they're both totally valid. Um, it's just something different.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah, great. Well, we've talked about landscape, we've talked a bit about travel, we've talked a bit about uh even an a a book or two there. Before I close the the the door on the questions of inspiration, is there anything else that pops to mind? I mean, you've got there's been all sorts of mansion climbing, but is there anything else like art, food, or other places in the world that you return to?

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Well, just about all art firms are, you know, all the you know, the inspirations for me are those individuals or those groups that um changed a world. And I may not have any sympathy with what um if for the good. I mean, change the world for the good. And so I sometimes there are personalities or even technologies. Um obviously somebody that I think changed a technology is uh a personality is is uh Steve Jobs. You know, he he approached and everybody to said he was crazy. Um that it would that nobody would no one would be interested in what he was thinking about. Well, things change things are different now. Um uh Adrian Zecca, the founder of Amon Resorts, um, got me involved uh working on on resort work because he said, um, I'm not interested in working with uh resort architects. I'm working, I'm interested in working with people that know how to make homes and places of comfort. And I and he obviously changed an industry. There are so many mini amons out there at this point, different brands and different names. Um, those are the um the sort of non-linear thinkers that I think um I'm completely fascinated with. Um certainly Einstein was one of those. I mean, these are geniuses and they're true inspirations. The more you read them at Peersig as an example, equating his philosophy with with the maintenance of his of his motorcycle.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah, great. Okay. Well, I might just start to wrap things up by just just touching on that thread about projects, actually. And because obviously I've we've had the book here as the backdrop to this as well. There are a couple of projects in there that were uh given extra long treatment. I think I noted down a bit about um the Pierre and Treehouse. Now, this is obviously an enormously vague question, but are there any uh amidst this great milieu of lots of projects, but are there any projects such as those two that you'd maybe like to draw a bit of attention to for uh our audience who are more Australia or Asia Pacific based or as a way into some of your work?

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Well, there's there's uh yes, I think there's one that I I consistently use as an example of how your world can change um based on no prediction. Um one is uh the rolling huts um in uh in uh North Washington, right on the Canadian border. Um this is these are like you know 280 square feet. They're just lit, these little um unheated, you know, they have a little stove in them, whatever. But the way we generated um or the way we got them approved by the local and um code authorities was a bit audacious and a little bit risky on the owner's part and our part, um, and it's a little bit notorious. Um I got a phone call from Nike to to um to be considered for their most important building on the Nike campus, which is their innovation center. And this is where they finally brought uh footwear together with activeware so that the two could kind of interrelate and and um conspire uh to uh improve each other's uh next steps. Um so from you know this to the from uh rolling huts basically, um rude little shelter in the the six shelters in the in the mountains of the North Cascades to being asked to be interviewed for um the LeBron James Innovation Center. It's just like it's this is amazing. And that Nike could recognize something at that super small scale that was important for something at super large scale. I think, well, it's it's inspirational. I think it says a lot about Nike. It speaks to what we said about the typology thing earlier, that it's not so much what you do and where you do it, but how you do it 100%, and it's the client, the client and at uh um the rolling huts, fantastic client. I did Delta shelter with that client, and then Nike, um, fantastic client. You know, they are were the risk takers. They are the risk takers. They're you know, they're the ones that came in when others were already settled in in their uh industries, and you know the rest is theirs has been history. So it's just again, it's it's it's so client-based that I'm lucky.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Great. Okay, well, look, final question uh as always, just about the future in the sh in the media term, when do you head back? And in the slightly longer term, what's what's planned for the next phase of life and career?

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Uh I go back to um I do um the Sydney Opera House tonight. Um and uh and then the following day I fly down to New Zealand or Queenstown uh to follow up on a project we're finishing in Arrowtown. And well, finishing it continues. It's just a wonderful, again, a wonderful client um that couldn't be happier to work with. Uh and then back to the States. Um, I am trying to uh focus my, you know, we're we're for our this is could be a really long answer, and apologies. We're uh we're probably out of time. It you know, we're we're changing from a very small firm maybe 40 years ago to a relatively good-sized firm. And what we're trying to do is find that balance between the ability to do large work, but still be architects and work on and in the projects and understand them at all the levels. And I think there was a moment where he sort of figured out, no, that that kind of is like as a bracket that doesn't quite work. So we're trying to find that that balance right now in the firm uh to to feel comfortable in our wisdom at this point in our careers, to be able to work on larger with larger groups and larger projects, but also be in the projects.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah, and and I imagine still avoid that division of labor that you mentioned earlier where you still have everyone across all parts of sorry, one person on a particular project is across all the phases of the project.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Because that's the if I'm working on a large project, I want to be there for the scribbles, the design development, the technology, um, develop the construction documents and the construction administration. I learned so much on site talking to the the builders and the fabricators and the craftspeople.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Great. Okay, well, on that note, we'll wrap things up. Uh thanks again for joining me. Welcome to Sydney and to Australia and good look at the Opera House tonight.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

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