Globally Thriving Families

New Country, New Life? The Emotional Impact of Big Transitions

• Clare O’Byrne • Episode 14

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How to support our kids (and ourselves) to navigate international moves with Mika Izekor.

In this episode of the Globally Thriving Families Podcast, Clare talks with Mika Izekor, a cultural intelligence consultant and adult third culture kid. Clare and Mika dive deep into the emotional impacts of big transitions, strategies for fostering resilience, and the importance of maintaining connections to one's cultural roots. Mika shares her personal journey and professional insights, offering practical advice for parents to support their children through relocations. The discussion touches on the value of compassion, authenticity, and the power of shared experiences in helping kids adapt to new environments.

00:00 Introduction to Globally Thriving Families Podcast
01:07 Meet Mika Izekor: Cultural Intelligence Consultant
02:25 Mika's Journey: From Makeup to Coaching
04:35 Understanding Cultural Intelligence
08:06 The Emotional Impact of Relocation on Families
12:56 Navigating Relocation: Practical and Emotional Challenges
21:07 The Role of Parents in Supporting Children Through Transitions
29:50 Parental Stress and Child's Reevaluation
30:16 Navigating New School and Cultural Differences
31:20 Overinflating Positives of Relocation
32:58 Addressing Children's Fears and Concerns
38:28 Balancing Parental Uncertainty and Support
42:00 Building Resilience in Children
45:46 Practical Strategies for Supporting Children
50:04 Understanding Cultural Impact on Parenting
56:08 Conclusion and Workshop Information


Resources mentioned in this episode: 

Third Culture Kids: The Experience of Growing Up Among Worlds. David C. Pollock & Ruth E. Van Reken.

Connect with Mika:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mika-holborow 

Website: www.inelementcoaching.com 

Instagram: in.element.coaching 

Connect with Clare: clare@globallythriving.com

Get the Free 5 Minute Parenting Reset for Busy Globally Mobile Families: Website: https://www.globallythriving.com

Connect with Clare on Instagram: http://instagram.com/globally_thriving

Book a free 20 minute call with Clare: https://tidycal.com/globallythriving/20-minute-meeting

Are you a parent or caregiver raising your child internationally? Are you curious about how to nurture your child's development? But find all the parenting information out there confusing? If so, you are in the right place. Welcome to the Globally Thriving Families Podcast. I'm your host, Clare O'Byrne, a parent coach and occupational therapist with a passion for supporting children and their families for more than 25 years. Whether it's understanding how to build resilience to practical tips for language development, screen time challenges, and staying calm amongst the chaos, Globally Thriving Families is here to help. Join me as we explore the topics that give you the insights and guidance you need to support your children to thrive. No matter where your family's adventures take you. Hello and welcome to another episode of Globally Thriving Families. Today we have a brilliant guest episode, and my guest is Mika Izekor who is a cultural intelligence consultant. She's a coach, corporate trainer, and educator based here in Abu Dhabi. She also has so much lived experience of global mobility as she is an adult third culture kid of mixed heritage, and her and her family have lived in several countries around the world too. Her personal and professional story really embodies the complexity and the beauty of a globally mobile life. And, we had a really meaningful conversation about what it means to experience those big transitions as a family from one country to another, and the emotional impact that it has on the whole family. She offers some wonderful perspectives on this and how we can support our kids and ourselves in these times. So here we go.

Clare:

hi, Mika. Welcome.

Mika:

Thank you Clare, thank you for having me.

Clare:

I'm so glad you agreed to join me. Thank you so much. I wanna get started by hearing a bit about your story. So tell the listeners about your journey, as a coach and as a cultural intelligence facilitator, and also I know that you're a globally mobile parent yourself. So tell us a little bit about how you came into this and your passion for talking about this topic.

Mika:

Thanks Clare. It's so interesting when people ask me that question, I realize that because I'm quite a high context person,

Clare:

Mm-hmm..

Mika:

I want to give everyone the fullest story you know, people can follow along and it makes sense. And so to do that, um, I think I'll have to take you back, a little while in the history.

Clare:

Great.

Mika:

Yes as you mentioned, I am a coach, I'm a cultural intelligence facilitator, and probably the most important, to our conversation today would be the fact that I am a third culture kid. I'm an adult third culture kid myself, and I am a globally mobile parent as well, because that really feels like it just underpins everything that I do and everything that, you know, I'm here today to talk about. I had trained to become a coach, uh, a life coach after working in the makeup industry for like years and years and years. And the thing that I loved most about makeup, was less about the makeup itself and more about how I connected with people. Because you're sitting there, you know, you're doing, it could be anyone's makeup, it could be somebody who's getting married. It could be a woman who's not feeling as confident in her own skill sets. Uh, it could be somebody who was. Going on television or, uh, an actress, it could be a whole number of people. when you have that connection with somebody and you're working so closely with someone. You just find that people really open up about who they are you know, their fears and their challenges and their hopes in a way that felt so authentic. And I really wanted to capture that and put more focus on that part, you know?

Clare:

Wow.

Mika:

And someone would leave after speaking with me and and just feel lighter. And so that is what really took me into coach training and becoming a coach. Um, and then at the same time I was introduced to cultural intelligence, And when I came into cultural intelligence, it was at a time in my life where I was doing a career shift. So I had lived in a few countries and I had moved back to the uk. It was during COVID, so it was during 2020 when obviously world turns upside down that presents people with different opportunities, I think. And it presented me with this different opportunity. It also was quite a challenge. At the time, I felt like I was 40. I felt like I was too old to do this career change. When I was introduced to cultural intelligence. I started then working for a company who was delivering training to the public sector in cultural intelligence as a way to address really large problems across diversity, equity, and inclusion. And cultural intelligence really helped to like level out the playing field. So it became less about them and us and more about understanding that all of us with intention should and could raise our cultural intelligence in order to be able to navigate differences effectively to, you know, whether that

Clare:

Mm.

Mika:

be at work, even at home, and it was really the first time I remember sitting in this training for cultural intelligence to become a facilitator. And I remember for the first time really feeling that I had suddenly been given this vocabulary, which I had never had before, and it suddenly made sense of all these experiences which I had had that I just never had words to put to it. And because I'm of mixed heritage. I grew up in the UK and then I left and my parents, relocated to Grenada in the Caribbean where I then did my secondary school in, moved back to the uk, met my husband, moved to Canada, for our relationship. And then following Canada, living there for six to seven years. Then moving to Japan where I lived another four years. And then. That was that moment then where I'd moved back to the UK during COVID and I was having this shift, this adjustment, understanding the complexity between my own identity as a person, plus what it is that I wanted to do, that that sense of justice and wanting toyou know, make the world a better place and help people to understand each other across differences. And myself, having had all these different experiences and being the parent to these two gorgeous girls who are British, Caribbean, Nigerian heritage, who have lived, at that point, never in any of those three places, but had rather lived at, up until that point, just in Canada and Japan. Suddenly it just felt like, you know, like a light bulb just goes off in you and you are like, this is, is gold. Like I need to take this. I need to harness this. And there's so much that I could do with that. And then that has really been the catalyst for what has led me. To our conversation now.

Clare:

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. Mika, I mean, what. An amazing story about how you arrived at this professional direction. Now obviously here today we're talking about supporting children who are going through a big transition, from one country to another. In the literature, there's this term that, not everybody will, be familiar with. The third culture kid,. So could you just maybe for anyone who isn't familiar with that term, maybe explain it a little bit for us.

Mika:

Sure, absolutely Claire. And it's, it really wasn't a term that I was also very familiar with, really up until, you know, maybe, I'd probably say about three years ago. And then it, you know, kind of came into my periphery and I was like, oh, okay. You know, again, I need to know more about this.

Clare:

Mm.

Mika:

I realized that obviously I'm, as I mentioned, I'm an adult third culture kid. Now that can get abbreviated to an'A TCK'. So TCK obviously the abbreviation for a third culture kid. And really what that means is it's a third culture kid is referring to someone who has spent a significant part of their formative years in a country other than their passportcountry.

Clare:

Right.

Mika:

Or home, as you would call it. Now, the idea of it being third is that you have the parents' culture. So one culture is obviously your parents' culture. The second culture is. The host culture for the culture which you have moved to, together that blend of cultures creates a third culture where you might take a little bit of this, you might take a little bit of that, and then create something which feels like your own special recipe of culture.

Clare:

Right. Oh, that's great. Thanks for, for explaining that.

Mika:

I.

Clare:

I know there's so many factors that we could be thinking about when we're wanting to really support our kids and set them up for success. So what kind of emotions do you think kids typically are experiencing before and during and after the move?

Mika:

It's so interesting, isn't it, you know, uh, having these conversations, you know, obviously we both live in Abu Dhabi. And, you know, we both have relocated from somewhere. Uh,

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

other, what we could call home countries,

Clare:

Mm-hmm.

Mika:

obviously we both have children, and it's really interesting to really try to understand, obviously, how our children experience those locations because as adults obviously we experience those relocations, in a certain way. And that brings, again, both challenge and opportunity

Clare:

Mm.

Mika:

you know, the same thing for our children as well. Um, interestingly, obviously a lot of it depends on the age of your children, but you, you do tend to find that, you know, so much of childhood, you know, just generally speaking is about understanding themselves better and understanding who

Clare:

Right.

Mika:

they are in this world and how the world sees them. And so whereas as adults we have more access to. If you wanna call it vocabulary or understanding or self-awareness of how we feel about things. Obviously children are less so they're still on that journey, that process for that, which I think is it's, it's a very fascinating journey. And so quite often the way that a child would experience something is almost, they almost like copy their parents in that.

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

And so sometimes if for example, as a family, you've moved and you can feel as an adult, as a parent, you are struggling with your relocation for whatever it may be. You feel in those frustrations, you're feeling those times when, okay, yes, of course there's homesickness, but it's also so much more than that. It's more about understanding who you are as a person and getting to see how this relocation has created shifts within you in your mindset, maybe in the way that you think makes you reevaluate yourself in a different way. And then our children see us going through that process and then the children are like, oh, actually you hold on a second. Like, this is what my parent is showing me if they're struggling. And I'm probably gonna struggle too. You know? I am copying my parents' behavior, right? I mean, I'm sure like when you relocated. You know, and

Clare:

Mm-hmm.

Mika:

that we, obviously, we had a a,, a chat about this before you, you, know, we were both kind of like sharing some notes and stories about our relocations and that's a natural commonplace, to find commonality with someone.

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

You know, we were both talking times. That does feel really, really challenging. And, you know, that's obviously something which children experience too. Uh, what do you think?

Clare:

You know, one of the things that I think about is where they're at developmentally. You know, when we first moved from Canada to Kuwait, my kids were two and three,. Um, there was change obviously, and there was an upheaval and there was being in a different environment and they were away from extended family and those kind of things, so there was very tangible things that were different. But the meaning that they gave to that or their understanding would've been quite different to now, or even just two years ago when we moved from Kuwait to Abu Dhabi. It was, um, a new phenomenon for us where we had to,, I guess approach it differently. And I do think you're right about the parents with, you know, they look to us, um, in terms of how we are coping with it. And it's almost like, um, do I have permission to feel sad about something or do I have permission to express a worry about something.

Mika:

No, I, I completely agree with you and I think, you know, your understanding, Claire, in your profession and your expertise, especially around child development, I'm sure is, you know. You kinda like layer these two things on top of each other, I'm sure that you can probably see some patterns and think, wow,

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

That's really insightful stuff because you know what they, what the research shows is that a child the age of about seven is, is usually the the point of which where things like relocating are going to affect them more. I mean, that's just like kind of like putting a bit of a pin in it. I mean, that's quite a broad statement to make, but it's somewhere around the age of seven that there, the research has shown that there is more impact on a young person, uh, for relocating around that time.

Clare:

Mm. Around age seven, is it that they form some attachments and friendships and, cognitively there are changes, but what is it in their life that they're noticing or really feeling, they're losing from leaving one place, and going to another, so can you speak to that a little bit? I'm thinking of the idea of this loss that is occurring when they're leaving behind their friends or their previous school or their pets or whatever it is that they're leaving behind.

Mika:

Yeah, absolutely. I had seen this visual, you know, when I had first started, uh, following this idea of, TCK and, and what that means. And there's a fantastic book, which I know that I'm sure that will probably link in the, in the resources, um, on, on this podcast. Um, which, you know, when I reading this book, it was, it felt like such an emotional journey. There'll be times where reading a book felt so difficult because it was just so emotional. It spoke to my own experience of, of relocating myself as a child and then also speaks to some of the guilt, which I think I have felt as a parent having relocated my own children and my own family as many times as I have. And the visual that, if I can try to describe it, is really understanding that when we think about our own identity, we have, there's three anchors to Our identity, to who we are as people. And uh, one of those is, I suppose, the community aspect to. So I was thinking about the furthest one away, if you wanna call it that,

Clare:

Mm-hmm.

Mika:

is the community aspects. You know, who we are in our community. And when I say community doesn't necessarily need to mean. The community of ideally where you live, but it could be anything. It could be community in terms of like maybe sports clubs that you are part of. It could be social clubs, where your parents socialize as an example. It could be clubs at school, it could be, you know, other areas where you're coming together and you are sharing a common passion or a common interest, right? So you have that piece there And in that anchor of community, you see yourself as belonging to and part of that community, and they reflect that piece of welcoming you and embracing you as a person as well. So it does this, anchor does both things. It confirms who you think you are and reflects back to you as well. So it's almost like a mirror. it's Like an anchor and, and a mirror at the same time. Then you also have your, the, the kind of, obviously probably the closest one's gonna be your immediate family. So it's gonna be again, you know, through parenting, how your child obviously begins to understand who they are, to understand, you know, their characteristics and their personality. So that one probably doesn't need as much explaining, but you can obviously see how that obviously provides an anchor and a mirror

Clare:

Yes.

Mika:

as well. And the third one, you know, come to the third one is also place. So you think about somewhere that feels familiar to you, you realize that you know, when you leave your house every day, you see the same things. You have those same markers and you know, as humans, we're creatures of habit, aren't we?

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

We like to see the same things.. We like to, if you think about with your children, you know, they go out and like, do you remember when we took you here like a year ago? And the excitement within which they then respond to say, yes, I remember when we came here. You know, and there'll be a memory attached to that. And that idea of place holds so many memories because it almost defines who we are. You know in, in that place., Quite often, if you think about your own history and you think of your different relocations, you may feel like you are different people in these different places. And there I always characterize mine as chapters almost,'cause it feels like I've got into a new chapter for every place that I've lived. Because again, this idea of what's familiar and what's around us, there's much memory attached to that. And so what's interesting

Clare:

Absolutely.

Mika:

Right, and what this diagram shows is so that you have this child at the center of these anchors, and then suddenly when you relocate, you immediately take out two of these anchors. So immediately the community has gone and immediately the place has gone. So suddenly, you know, if I could just, the way that I imagine it is almost like this, with this great big X, you know, over these two anchors. And so suddenly a child's sense of belonging, a child's sense of feeling included and celebrated is now solely the, the responsibility of the parents, the family, and obviously usually you relocate as obviously just your immediate family. And so then there's an enormous amount of pressure on just that immediate family to provide the child with their entire sense of who they are.

Clare:

Yes. Oh my gosh. I relate to that so much and I'm sure so many of the listeners will too, that when you do do a big move, you are just this unit and that could be one of the real pluses is like, wow, we'll have all this time together. We are, we are there for each other, we are team, whatever, you know. Um, actually that's funny. I do sometimes say Team Shah that's my husband's last name. I'm like, team, we're team Shah And my kids think that it's really cringe. But, um. But it does sort of feel like you have to be this unit moving through life, facing these new things together. But i think for some families who are moving. We, we tend to just become more flippant about the moves, not because it's not a big deal, but because, you know, the people we're surrounded by are also moving. Or we may have done one or two moves before or maybe more, and you start to kind of forget that actually, it can impact us, n o matter how many times we've done it. So what are your thoughts about that actually, in terms of, the impact of these transitions on our kids? Do you think it is a different experience the first time versus the third or the fourth or the fifth? Yeah,

Mika:

and thanks for the question, Claire, because it's just such, it's such a great question. It's such a great, I think, thought to have, you know, surely if you've done it once, then you'd become more practiced at it and therefore be able to navigate those changes m ore easily. So no matter how many times I think that you've relocated, I think each one brings a different perspective and challenge, and again, a new opportunity. I always come back to this kind of idea of balance and challenge and opportunity. I know and what I notice. And so a lot of, I think the, one of the reasons, again, why I came into this is because I didn't get it right. There were so many times in which I got it wrong. There's so many times that I look back and I reflect and think, oh, I should have done that differently. And so a lot of it are ideas and concepts and mindsets that I think, oh, I really like that. I actually wanna bring that into my own parenting so that when I do this again, I can get better at this. So this is definitely not from a place of mastery at all and anything really that I'm sharing with you today, and to your question about whether it does get easier, I think there are certain things which do become a lot easier. I think the practicalities and the mechanics of moving and relocating does become something which you do feel more confident in. So you know, the first time it's all very, very scary, isn't it? Especially if you are at that point already a parent, because there's so many logistical things to think about. It's not just yourself, it's not just your partner, it's also your children. The education, and as much as you as a parent might be able to say, oh, I'll just live anywhere, because you know, I can put up with anything. Ultimately, I'm an adult. Now you suddenly have little people to think about and they have a completely different set of needs. And so you feel like this huge weight of responsibility to ensure that you get everything right. You have to get the shipping right, you have to choose the right house, you have to choose the right school. You have to choose the right transport. You have to ensure that you are a adherent to all these different policies, insurances, and the story just goes on and on and on.

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

Now I think after you've relocated a few times, you do get at that. So in all the relocations that I have done, uh, with my family, with my husband and my children, it hasn't always been from a place of being an expert. Although we did get better over the years, and then by the second relocation, my husband had taken it so seriously that he had prepared a whiteboard he then said, okay, Mika, what we're gonna do is we're gonna scrum it. You know, we're gonna do this kind of like agile project management thing. And I was like, this is crazy. This is all in all way too much. And I remember having this conversation with him, with the whiteboard going through. all the points that we were gonna attach to all these different tasks that we had to do. And these things ranged from everything, right from, okay, who was gonna contact the shippers? You know, how much space do we need? What are we bringing? What are we leaving? What all the administration, things that we had to tie up I remember having like, almost like these weekly touchpoint meetings with him, you know, it became like a business, like the business of relocating,

Clare:

Mm.

Mika:

to ensure that we got all these different things done. And, you know, all of, you know, as a family, and I'm sure that you probably experienced this too, all of you are just like geared up. You know, you are really geared up into this moment of like high planning, things had to be incredibly organized. They all had deadlines. You know, you go to bed at night thinking of all the things that you have to still do the following day. It's quite a high tense. High stakes as well, uh, moments, isn't it, in that, in that relocation piece. And as much as I think that as a family, we have got so much better with the practical aspect of moving, we kind of know what needs to happen, the order within which it needs to happen. I think that. in this last relocation, I thought, well, given that obviously I'm, I'm clearly, I'm, I'm Heller experienced at this, like I should know what it is that I'm doing. I suddenly realized that the emotional aspect of the relocation, that part doesn't change, and that part is always challenging. I kind of underestimated the impact it would have, and so I, you know, for those people who have relocated a few times, you know you tell your new family, like this new family or friends that you've now, you know, collated in your country. Okay? Right. We're relocating. And I had these conversations so often and people are like, oh, Mika, you know, you are, you are leaving again. And I would say, oh, honestly, it's fine. Honestly, I know what I'm doing. I've done this X times before, it's gonna be okay. I remember people looking at me going, are you sure? Yeah. I mean, I've done this. I know it's hard. I mean, I'm quite sociable. I can go out and I can meet some new friends. I know what to expect and rather, unfortunately, I think that that thought process meant that I was actually wildly still unprepared emotionally, and it's taken me, I would say, a full two years since moving here to the UAE for me to begin to feel like my true, authentic person again. And that, I think is probably something which many people probably also overlook. I know they do. You know, from all the conversations that I have with other parents, with other families, they think, oh, I've done this before. It's gonna be okay. And yes, practically it is, you'll probably kind of, you know, get your house set up faster. You would've probably made, better decisions around schooling, about where you lived and all of those practical aspects, but emotionally, you will still go through that same culture shock curve of feeling initially, that huge excitement about all the things that your new country or new culture has to offer, and then really experiencing a significant dip, right, in what that new country is then offering you where you begin to feel, oh, actually, this isn't everything that it's cracked up to be. I thought it was gonna be this incredible experience where suddenly this relocation was just gonna come along and solve all of our problems and everything was gonna be okay once we just successfully relocated. And that's just not the case. That's just not how it works. I know you're smiling. I'm sure that you probably experienced similar emotions.

Clare:

Yeah. I can totally relate to that feeling of, oh yeah, I've got this. You know, and thinking about those practical things and situational things that w e learned from before, oh, we'll make good decisions about this, but I have not given that weight to the emotional impact for, for myself, for my husband, and for my kids. And you just explain that so beautifully. That definitely happened to me this time moving from Kuwait to Abu Dhabi and I actually felt really kind of discombobulated, um, several months in thinking, well, why, why am I not quite settled yet? This is a great place. We wanted to come here. The kids like their school, you know, blah, blah, blah. And one of the things that I was thinking about, to kind of bring that experience, back to how we support our kids, is. If we are having some challenges with that adjustment whether it's adjusting to the idea of the transition or adjusting to the actual transition when we are in it, how does that kind of impact our kids too, like the experience that we are going through.

Mika:

Yeah. Excellent. So I guess I, at this point, I refer back to that image that I described earlier of those three anchors, and now you obviously have this one anchor. You just have the family who are now providing the entire holistic process of helping that child find re-establish their own identity in this new place. And really interestingly, the family are also going through such a critical move at the same time. Usually at this point, the family are going undergo so much stress. Because as you know, as parents, you know, we're really interested in securing those essential you know, back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Those essential things. I have to ensure that I provide the shelter. I have to ensure that I provide the finances, the safety, the security all those things that's our entire, focus at that point. And it's also the time when the child is beginning to try to reevaluate themselves, like, who am I now in this new place? And suddenly, you know, they're experiencing new transitions. They're going to school for the first time in a new country. They may not know the norms of that new school. You know, they're learning a whole new routine associated with that new school. They're interacting with people who maybe they haven't interacted with before, you know, in terms of different cultural differences. And they've gone off to school first day. You know, they've come home from school. How was it? huge amount of pressure, isn't it? Okay, I'm in this new school, I'm in this new environment, in this new country, and that young person can also see their parent going through all these extraordinary changes of, you know, being so focused on just reestablishing family life. And it's a really delicate time, I think, in a relocation, especially those first six months. And I think as parents what we do is that we quite often overinflate the benefits or the positives of this new place. And so

Clare:

Right.

Mika:

oh my gosh, isn't this amazing? We can do this at the weekend. We can do that at the weekend or after school. And you almost are like selling them. You're selling them the idea of this new place. Right, and you

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

feel like you have a responsibility to do that. And so you

Clare:

Mm-hmm. load up

Mika:

these weekends, you load them up, right? You're going to, you know, the top attractions, things to see, things to experience. And after about six months, you are thinking, okay, right. Well. Firstly, I, I've probably spent a fortune.

Clare:

Yeah,

Mika:

establish

Clare:

kidding.

Mika:

of, yeah, exactly. I need to establish some kind of sense of normality, you know, and routine for our family. And that's when the reality really begins to set in of, actually this is. Not just a holiday full of new exciting adventures, but actually this is somewhere which we're going to be living that we want to feel part of. And at that precise moment, you probably haven't really felt that you belong or are part of, of anything, just as yet. And that is a very slow process, which takes time and it takes an incredible amount of patience and resilience. You know, families need to be so resilient. They have to show so much grit because these are really challenging times. They are challenging moving to a new place and setting up all over again, a whole new identity as a family in a different country.

Clare:

Hmm. You know, that's really important point that you were talking about there with, um, sort of'bigging' it all up and making it seem more, um. Oh, isn't this exciting? Isn't this amazing? Because I know I've done that and I'm pretty sure the listeners can relate to that at some point too. And I know that, you know, thinking about it from, you know, as a therapist, life has ups and downs and the ups and downs are just part of life. And we don't have to be happy or breezy all the time. We don't have to expect our kids to be happy or breezy all the time too. You know, all feelings are welcome as such, right? You know, and we can sit with that and we can help our kids who might be having that kind of concern and that worry, the anticipation or, you know, they could be telling themselves all kinds of stories. But can you speak a little bit about that in terms of. How does a parent manage that when the child is in that phase where they're, they're worried and apprehensive and they're thinking of all the things that could go wrong, or all the things that they're, they've lost, or all the things that they're uncertain about, like how do we honor that e nough?, And then how do we kind of help them move forward in that, if that's,

Mika:

Yeah.

Clare:

of a wordy question.

Mika:

It's a great question. It's exactly where my thoughts were going to, as, as you, you brought that question up, and I think this has probably been one of my biggest learning experiences. So I'll speak now, really as a parent when we're going through this, uh, this relocation, and I know this happened to me personally, um, a few times. You know, you've got to a point where, okay, you're gonna tell your children, okay, yes, we are relocating. And you know, a couple of weeks later you may begin to kind of like hear the questions. You can hear the fear beginning to arise within your children of what about this? And what about that and what about the other? And as parents, you know, we tend to always have this moment of wanting to just be really encouraging. so what we

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

to do is gloss over all of. The fears actually, which ultimately are our child is telling us in one way, shape or another, and

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

to provide this really ultra positive, um. Response to all of these fears. So fear one. Oh my gosh. Mommy, what happens if I don't find any friends? And we are, we're saying, oh, it's gonna be fine. Oh my gosh, it's got some great people there. But actually, what's your child really saying? Our child is saying. I'm really gonna miss those friendship bonds, which I've created. I'm, I, I don't know how I'm going to navigate that loss. It's probably less about, at that point, encouraging them with this kind of almost like false positivity and actually honoring the fear, which they're saying to you and saying, you are right. Its going to be really hard. And let's just sit with that for a moment. Like, let's talk about it. You tell me what are you most fearful of? And so they, you know, they begin to obviously explain that they're fearful that they won't meet a friend, like the friend that they currently have. And then that is just such a segue. It's such a beautiful avenue to then explore with your child, where you then can ask questions and understand how they did build those friendships in the first place, then really give them quite practical ways that maybe they could use some of those skills, some of those capabilities, which they had into their new place, to help them know that actually it, there is actually a possibility that they, they will find some other friendships which are gonna be just as dear, just as valued and just as important in their new place. So rather than us just always glossing over it, oh, it's gonna be fine. You know, it's, it's gonna be great. Don't worry about it. Okay, you are, you are leaving your bestest friends, but you know what? This place has the best theme park, you know, like. When you think about it, that's, but that we,

Clare:

Oh my God.

Mika:

We've all done it at some point, haven't we? We've

Clare:

Yeah, had

Mika:

those conversations where we've glossed over the really deep fear and insecurities that our child is telling us, offering them something, which at that point they don't understand and we're not really addressing what's really going on at the core of them.

Clare:

And I suppose, you know, that's also true of a lot of our parenting isn't it? And and our sort of survival sometimes is that we, we do generally have a hard time with our kids, big feelings about things And so, you know, generally it's something that we sometimes do tend to sweep under the carpet or gloss over or whatever. So, so of course, why wouldn't it be any different in this big life situation? But thank you so much for explaining that because I think it's really important for us as parents to know that it's all right for our kids to have those worries because also we probably have them in the back of our mind too. We might be having the same worry on behalf of our kids. Um, I'm also just wondering. So you talked before about how, you know, they sort of see us as kind of the role model for how we are adjusting and how we are feeling about something and when we're supporting our kids. Is there a fine line between. Being upfront about the uncertainty that we might have as parents and maybe we are having some difficulty getting head around something that is going to be happening or that we are in. So if there is a fine line between that uncertainty and then also maybe burdening our kids you know, because it is along that lines of. I don't wanna be fake,. I don't wanna be, oh, this is all shiny and happy, but where does authenticity stop And treating our kids as a therapist, uh, begin, if that makes sense.

Mika:

absolutely. It's such a, it's a great question and I think obviously anything I say at this point is gonna be, you know, so tailored to. I suppose an atypical family, and when I say

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

atypical in the terms of maybe your children don't have any special educational needs or any additional needs which may need that. The obviously certain children that do need to have more stability, they need to have more structure, and they need to have more routine in order for them to function at their best, and so suddenly taking a child who may be neurodiverse. And put them in a situation where you are saying, actually this situation we're going into is uncertain. I don't have all the answers, may not be necessarily the best thing, and you may need to obviously rethink how you're gonna approach that. Right.

Clare:

great point. Yes.

Mika:

I preface that by saying that, um, and. I think it's a wonderful thing to, you know, for us to be thinking about at what point do we be brutally honest with our children and say, actually we don't know, but that's so much of adulthood, is that right? There isn't a rulebook

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

for these things. And quite often when you are, when as a family you've made the decision to relocate, often people. Come up against quite a lot of hesitation and resistance from those who are closest to them, so extended family members. And so quite often, not only are you navigating your own fears, insecurities as to how the move is going to go, not knowing if it's gonna be successful or not. There's huge, great big question marks o ver these things. At the same time, you don't always have the full unconditional support of those who are closest to you because they're in a situation where you are leaving, right? And that's painful. And so you might be standing there. And you kind of alluded to to it earlier, Claire, when you said, you know, it felt like you're a team. Right,

Clare:

Yes.

Mika:

like you're suddenly, you almost like you close in, you the circle of, the, the three of you, four of you, five of you, six of you, however many children you have, you begin to close in and you think, right, we've got to do this as a team. We have got to make this as successful as we possibly can do. And I think the only way to do that really would be to obviously have open communication. And as much as you may not have the answer to everything. I think it's also a life skill, which we're also teaching our children. The idea of equipping our children to be as comfortable as they can be with change, I think is a skill which is gonna take us to so many great places, uh, for future generations. Change more than anything is something which is inevitable. And I think this idea of being able to say to our children, okay, this, this is what we've decided upon, this change is going to come that change may be uncomfortable. It may be really difficult at times. There'll be times when you'll wonder if you made the right decision for these changes. You'll reevaluate that decision often, and there may be days when you actually think that maybe it was the wrong decision. All of those thoughts and feelings are totally normal and they're totally valid, but the commitment that you make as parents is that you will speak together as a family with your children, and let's have some honest conversations to really understand the change as it's happening. Right.

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

as opposed to not addressing it at all and just hoping that this idea of, oh, children are so resilient, they'll cope, is actually going to somehow pull them through. Which I have no better words for that than saying that that is a absolute total BS.

Clare:

Yes. Yes,

Mika:

when we think about that. Right.

Clare:

Yeah, that's, that was what I was thinking about as you were talking, resilience is about being supported through the difficulty. That's how one becomes resilience. Right. Um, as opposed to, oh, you can drag the kids anywhere, it'll be fine. Because they'll just suck it up.

Mika:

You know, resilience is, is a word which, you know, people throw around all the time or, you know, especially when it comes to children and relocating. You know, I, I heard it so often, you know, from my own family when, you know, we first relocated the first time, second time, the third time, and the fourth, oh, they'll be fine. You know, your, your girls are so adaptable, you know, uh, I have two daughters, so it's always, oh, they're so adaptable that they'll just figure it out. And to a certain extent, I mean, I suppose. There is that because of the facts, only because really that they have had to practice, that they have had to adjust to change. But that hasn't happened just as a natural thing. It's happened because we have practiced it. So resilience feels like a muscle which you have to practice to get stronger at like anything in life, you know? How can you just expect a child who has never relocated before? You know, say your child is, 10 years old, and that they should somehow just accept this change that they're about to go through and effortlessly navigate it. Because why? Because they're 10. No, that's not going to happen. You know, that's really, look at it, okay, so what supports plans do we need to put in place? They can exercise that resilience muscle. So they do become stronger in it, and ultimately what I really hope. I hope for all of our children and for those that do relocate, is that they, they exercise that muscle of deep belief knowing that they don't have all the answers, but they know that they have the skills, the capability, and the blessings to know that they will figure it out as they go. And that deep belief is the part that I would really like, all children to be able to, to cultivate with the support of their parents.

Clare:

Wow. That is beautiful, Mika. Wow. One thing I should just mention at this point is, your course that I attended, the third Culture Kids workshop, It was so amazing to listen to you talk about this topic and also have an opportunity to connect with the other people attending who I didn't know, but to share those experiences. And one of the things that you did speak about was some of those practical strategies to really support the child. Now, we've talked a lot about the emotional impact and the adjustment in general, As they're thinking about the move what could support, families with helping their kids with this adjustment?

Mika:

Yeah.

Clare:

I.

Mika:

Um, and, and, and thanks for mentioning that, Claire. It was, it was lovely meeting you on that day. I'm, I'm so glad that you came along and, uh, you added so much value to the session. You know, these sessions can only ever be as successful as they are because of the people who attend and the vulnerabilities that shared by those people. So that's really important to me as well. And when I had put together that particular, leaflets, around practical things which parents can do. There's a few things that have really stood out to me, and one of them I, I spoke to a bit earlier, which is this idea of practicing compassion before practicing encouragement. So, you know, this idea of, you know, I've had my daughter in tears before. And again, rather than trying to stop her from crying and saying all the nice things to encourage her to stop crying and having that emotion. It's a valid emotion and you need to experience sadness to also understand the joy of happiness, right? So

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

idea of compassion before offering encouragement. So that's, that one really stands out for me. I would say. Secondly, on a little bit more of a practical element,alot of families, that I coach and work with, I've noticed sometimes in a bid to try and set up a, a new life and a new country. They tend to almost like put away all of those family memories and pictures and things because they're so scared that somehow it's going to jolt feelings of sadness, um, in their children. And actually children really need to see those threads that those connections to their previous life. And so of the things I do recommend that families do is. Put up those pictures, give your children the journey of who they are, where they're from, their grandparents, those moments of joy, which you capture in a picture and display them in your family home because that helps our children to feel more grounded and more aware of who they are. To understand who we are

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

we have to look at what the roots are in the ground. And those pictures are so symbolic of, of who we are in the world and how we show up and the, the value systems which we have. Additionally, I would also say, you know, a really key thing to, to help parents is understand that You're not going to have all the answers. You just won't, and that's okay. Now, for some people, the idea of being so vulnerable is not something which they feel particularly comfortable with at all. You know, we like to feel in control. We like to know. Who we are, what we're doing, if what we're doing is correct. And actually I think there's a huge piece in relocation where you have to say, I don't know. I don't have the answers. I don't know how this works there. And rather than being judgemental on how your new country works, understand that it's worked for years before you got there. For a start, right? It's obviously

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

before you've gotten there, and so

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

The storytelling, right? It helps with the, the story which our children then tell as young people out in this world.

Clare:

Yes. And then when they're an adult, TCK, they'll be remembering this as part of their formative years. Right.

Mika:

Absolutely.

Clare:

So Mika, tell everybody about the workshop that you do.

Mika:

Yeah, absolutely. So my workshop, which is really about third culture kids, feels like it's something as you know, which kind of sits quite close to my heart. And when I had started, learning and exploring more about third culture kids, as I mentioned, I had this experience as an adult third culture kid and it was something that I wanted the participants who come to the workshop to also experience as well and quite often, when we are talking about this idea of culture, you can always feel, sometimes people's defensiveness kind of come into it thinking, oh, culture. Oh, like, oh, I think actually maybe that might be too sensitive of a subject to, to approach, especially in the world that we live in. Right. With the, the way that the world is currently and the, the amount of conflict in the world, and I really hope that the workshop provides parents a opportunity for them to explore actually who they are and how much their culture has actually impacted and influences and continues to do so the way that they think, the way that they behave, the way that they communicate, because everything about the way that we are. As much as we might try and pin it to personality or intelligence and all these other things, culture actually also sits at the base of all those things, the reason that we, for example, you know, my idea of politeness might be very different to somebody else's idea of politeness and all of that is based on our upbringing. It's all based on the way in which the culture within which we were brought up. Right, and so you begin to see that there's so much about how culture impacts how we show up in the world and what is authenticity to us. These two things are much more closely related, and I think what we give them credit for. And so I feel, or I'd like, I hope you tell me the workshop gives people an opportunity for, for them to think about their cultural upbringing also helps them to see how that impacts the way that they engage with other people. And when I say that, even in, in terms of their marriages. You know, my husband is British, Nigerian, and of course we have very similar values when we met. And then I'm sure like many people listening to this who are in a cross-cultural relationship, Or marriage, have children and somehow your parenting styles somehow then get highlighted, And you suddenly realize, actually we have some differences here. Actually the way that I might approach discipline might be different to the way that he approaches discipline. How are we going to find this common ground? How are we going to compromise and find a way forward? And

Clare:

Mm-hmm. so in this

Mika:

workshop, really understanding who you are in terms of your culture, your value systems, and how that may be different from. For example, like your partners, how it might be similar to your partners, and also for it to create space for them, for people to really think about what culture are we bringing up our children in? You know, what are we infusing them with? Because you can't teach culture in a classroom. Culture's almost like something which you just catch. You just get, you know, all these experiences that we're exposing our children to is all helping to shape their cultural identity. And so that's what I really hope that the workshop gives people. And once they've explored that, they're then able to continue that journey. I have a great workbook, which I have put together to help parents, think through that journey for themselves and what that means in their parenting as well.

Clare:

I actually learned so much more about myself and when I got home I was so excited Yeah, I just really felt like I'd learned something new I got some profound insights. I went home, I told my husband, and then we started reflecting on his culture, and then I told my kids about it. So I was explaining to them all about, you know, this concept of third culture kid, and for them when they move to a new place or when somebody asks them where are they from? You know, they launch into this spiel about the four different cultures that comprises them. So I think, um, what I loved about it was it was just bringing this awareness, and language to your experience that people can then take away and really reflect on, the significance for their own family. And I think that was really the enriching part of it.

Mika:

Oh, well Claire, that is, honestly, that's just such wonderful feedback to hear. That really is, that's really touched my heart. Thank you. Um,

Clare:

Awesome.

Mika:

what I hope. And you, and also, you know, I know as you mentioned earlier on, you, you met people, know, at the workshop that maybe otherwise you wouldn't have met. And you know, that just connection with people and you know, again, that's one of the things that really helps people feel more. At home when after they have relocated. So after you have gone through that huge dip in that culture shock curve, really helping people to get out, to get out and try and make those connections again is so important for. Our mental, emotional wellbeing. You know, it's actually connections with people and relationships, which is gonna bring you so much more joy inside for you to

Clare:

Hmm.

Mika:

actually this is, I can, I think I can make this place work. You know, I think I can,

Clare:

Yeah.

Mika:

is gonna be good for us. You know, it's that it's in the connections.

Clare:

And the power of a shared experience actually is quite significant, isn't it?

Mika:

Yeah. Yeah. No,

Clare:

Um,

Mika:

absolutely.

Clare:

I., Well,, we could talk all day, I think about this. But it's such a rich discussion and I think, you know, there's so many nuances to it, but I really think that the things that you have talked about today are going to give the listeners and myself. A lot to think about and to reflect upon. And, and hopefully it will also, feel hopeful for all of us that, you know, if we have gone through this situation, then there's some things that we are gonna have really done brilliantly, and there's gonna be some things that we can bring to the next experience, or at least to reflect upon to understand our kids a little bit better. But. I just wanna say thank you so much for talking today. I've loved this conversation and, I will put a link in the show notes to your workshop and how people can get in contact with you. So thanks for your time.

Mika:

Thank you so much, Claire. Thank you. That really, it really means a lot and I, I really appreciate having the opportunity to talk as much as I have done about, about this.

Uh Wow, what a powerful discussion that was. And I loved chatting to Mika about those themes of identity and loss and that no matter how often you've made those big transitions, there is still an emotional impact that we can experience., And above all, allowing our kids to feel their feelings about it without having to change them or fix them, was a really powerful takeaway for me. If you are local and you want to find out more about when her next Third Culture kids workshop is happening, which I highly recommend. I will put a link in the show notes and you can get in touch with her. Thank you so much for listening and see you next time.