The Pulse Podcast

Networking Lies We've All Believed: What Actually Works

• Mark Pratt • Season 1 • Episode 1

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"I did the job that I wanted to do, not what I was paid for."

🔥 In this episode of the Pulse Podcast, Maxine Gregory shares her extensive journey in project management, detailing her transition from operations to project delivery and her leap into contracting. She emphasises the importance of networking, personal accountability, and the evolving landscape of project management. Maxine reflects on significant projects, the lessons learned from mistakes, and offers valuable insights into navigating the current contracting market. She also discusses the future trends in contracting and project management, highlighting the need for adaptability and continuous learning. 

🔥 Takeaways

  •  Max did the job she wanted to do, not just what she was paid for.
  • Formal training in project management can enhance confidence and skills.
  • Networking is crucial for finding new opportunities in contracting.
  • Managing what you have is key to success in project management.
  • Building relationships without an agenda is essential for effective networking.
  • Mistakes in stakeholder management can lead to valuable lessons.
  • The contracting market is currently quieter, but opportunities still exist.
  • Personal accountability is vital in a competitive job market.
  • Future trends indicate a rise in fractional consulting roles.
  • Continuous learning and adaptability are necessary for project managers.


🔥 Guest Appearance
Maxine Gregory

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Until next time,
Mark and the team!

Mark Pratt (01:23)
Maxine Gregory, welcome to the Pulse Podcast. Great to have you here.

Max (01:27)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Mark Pratt (01:29)
You're very, very welcome. So for those that don't know Max, Maxine, Max and I had the great pleasure of working together for about the last 10 years on various different projects as...

both as contractors, peers. Max has worked for me on some projects and for the last about five years Max has been in and out helping us at project partners and added a lot of value helping us get the business to where it is today. So thank you for giving up your time Max, I really appreciate it and everything that you've done for us as well. So first off, what I think people will be really interested to hear.

is how you got into project management and contracting because you know when I went to school I didn't say to myself one day when I grow up I want to be a project manager and I guess many other people are in the same boat so why don't you start by telling us your story of how you ended up as a project management contractor.

Max (02:28)
Okay, it's a little bit long-winded but because I didn't do that well at school, I thought it was all of just about kind of mucking about and getting out of the house and a bit of a who could be the funniest, who could be the most popular and just generally showing off. It was no surprise that my kind of exam results weren't great so my dream of being a top class journalist was very quickly kind of swiped away because I couldn't even do A levels because my qualifications weren't really high enough.

So with no other option. You've got to be very old to remember this, but I went on a YTS, a youth training scheme.

And that's where the government paid you 30 quid a week and they allowed you to go to college one day a week and put you on placement in various departments in local firms. And then the idea was that if you worked hard and did well, they'd perhaps give you a job. And eventually I went through these, worked in accounts and spares and training and HR, and eventually I got myself a job. And I worked there for about a couple of years before I got my first job in financial services, working for the former Cheltenham and Gloucester Building Society.

I couldn't afford a car so I was saving for a car and I bussed and walked and trained at Coventry every day to work in the branch on the literally the lowest rung of the ladder and this is going to go somewhere I promise. I stayed there for a few years as a branch assistant until CNG announced they were going to acquire the former Heart of England Building Society.

CNG has got bit of history of acquiring other small lenders and kind of adding to their asset size and that type of thing. So I applied to be part of the project team to turn 50 Heart of England branches into CNG branches. That was really my first foray into projects. That was just a secondment. So when I finished that and we'd got those branches up and running, I came back into branch life and I was assistant branch manager in a small branch and then a bigger one.

And then Lloyds Bank announced they were going to acquire CNG and wanted to CNG branded mortgages in Lloyds branches so they needed to set up a brand new mortgage application centre just near Warwick. So it was a bit of a stretch promotion for me at the time, a whole day of interviews and assessments and that type of thing but I got the job.

and I left Branch Life and joined the world of operations. And I set that up with my boss, set it up from scratch, hired everyone in the building, running teams of kind of 60 to 100 people, also ran a contact center there.

It was quite tough at times, but I learned probably a lot about leading people, about the way work works, and how chickens come in and pies go out, just getting stuff done really. So yeah, that's kind of how I got, how I progressed from...

being a complete nobody to a little bit of a somebody. And what I found was in operations, there was always change coming your way. So people would say, are we going to take on a new bit of work or we're going to now start selling C &G branded mortgages in Lloyd's TSB branches, because then Lloyd's and TSB had got together. So you had a lot of change done to you. So I'd kind of been on the receiving end of being a stakeholder in a project.

sometimes thought I could do it better, sometimes got frustrated that we were expected to do a lot of stuff side of desk. There'd be perhaps one project contact person and everything else was taken away from you or decided for you. I didn't really like that and I thought there was a better way of doing it. So when they shut that building down, realised that you could offshore some of that work, I turned down the opera of

moving with some of the work to Gloucester and I went to work in a local authority as an improvement officer. She's basically working on internal projects at a local authority, Warwick District Council, where we worked on things like housing benefits, planning applications and we worked closely with the chief exec's office to work on change and improvement. So that was my first kind of biggest direct kind of chunky project job.

Mark Pratt (07:03)
Okay, amazing. I think we're going to focus on some of your later roles that you have undertaken in your project management career in a few minutes. what I want to do, we're going to have a wide range of people who've got a wide range of interests at different points in their own careers. And I just want to go back and focus in on kind how you broke from being kind of in that operational role and obviously working your way up different operational roles into that project delivery or project

management sort of career. So just kind of what advice would you give someone how do think you were able to kind of break into into project delivery what what was it that you did what were the some of the things that you did to kind of you know force your way into that into that world.

Max (07:51)
So I probably just did the job that I wanted to do rather than the job that I was paid to do. Obviously by that time I'd got quite a good reputation. I had a bit of welly, a bit of authority. So I suppose I did have a bit of clout.

Mark Pratt (07:56)
Okay.

Max (08:07)
by that time. So I would say if there's a project to do, me and my people will do it kind of thing, rather than somebody else doing it to us. And we very quickly got used to, so for example, when we're asked to take on new work.

me and my team established processes for impact assessing new work coming into our operation. Because when you're running large teams, there's an assumption that you can just take another bit of work, another bit of work, another bit of work. But everybody's always pressured on headcount and budget and things like that. So even down to, like I say, setting up our own impact assessment work so that we could confidently say yes or confidently say no to new work, or we understood what it would be.

setting up processes that did skills assessments across the team so we could say yes we are capable of doing that new work or no we're not capable of doing that new work without some training or without some upskilling and so we'd kind of run my own mini projects as well as running the operation and then when

And like I said, I suppose I did have a little bit of reputation for getting things done and things like that. So people didn't mind as long as I still ran the operation, which I did. Most people in my team relished an opportunity to do something different and get involved in something different. Because that's the other thing. Sometimes, certainly like 25 years ago, working in operations, it can be boring.

You know, the work can be boring, it can be repetitive. So you're able to give people a little bit of an opportunity to say, why don't we measure this? Why don't we do a bit of this? Why don't we come up with a design or a process for doing something different? You know, so I suppose I broke into it by doing mini projects of my own in my own team. That's probably so that meant that when I when I had the opportunity to well, I was made redundant from CNG, but I had the opportunity to

stay or go. I chose to go at the time and that meant that I had real work to talk about when I was talking about going to work for the council and working on projects. I was able to say yes I've my own projects.

rather than have no experience or have only got the experience of being a stakeholder. I understood a little bit more about the life cycle by then. I'm still loads to learn, but I understand a little bit more about the life cycle by then. So my advice would be do the job that you want to do.

Mark Pratt (10:41)
Sure.

Okay, cool. And at this stage when you were taking on those many projects, no formal project training or qualifications at this stage. You're just running some smaller BAU type projects where you touch us a little bit more on that.

Max (10:59)
Yes.

Yeah, no, didn't have any formal project management at the time. I just took the common sense approach to doing things, trying to get the data on volumes, metrics, that type of thing, trying to put in some assumptions, calculations, just it was, I'm not saying it was high for looting. It was probably quite basic looking back, but so was the way we processed the work back then, you know, so in some ways it was easier.

creating SLAs, KPIs, that type of thing that was very big in the operational world. So how are we going to know if we're doing it? Thinking about how we'd quality check. There was a lot of focus on quality checking back then and that type of thing. So, yeah.

Mark Pratt (11:50)
Okay, amazing, thanks. So fast forward us now then through kind of how your kind of project delivery career sort of grew.

You've taken the opportunity of redundancy at C &G, you've gone into local authority, into a more project-oriented, change-oriented role. Take us through the next few years now, how you then got yourself into contracting, how that opportunity presented itself, and perhaps talk to us a little bit about some of the fears and blockers of jumping into that, whether you had those or not, and what made you think it was the right thing to do

Max (12:04)
Yep.

Sure.

Mark Pratt (12:31)
to take that leap.

Max (12:33)
one tiny just step to mention in between leaving kind of financial services and joining a local authority as a project officer or continuous improvement officer I think I was called at the time.

One of the opportunities that we were given for people who took redundancy was a training bond. So we were given a two and a half thousand pound training bond to spend on anything we liked to enable us in the workplace. So I did PRINCE 2, foundation and practitioner. So that's the first time I'd seen any sort of formal process and structure. I did it with a friend of mine who's also being made redundant. This was back in the day where

It was a course for over five days in a hotel. It was essay questions, very long essay questions for the practitioner side of the examination. So that's the first time I'd got a foray into it. And I came out of that thinking, I can remember the guy who taught us a chap called Cyril, Cyril Culkin. It was fantastic. And I remember him say, it was a Scouse bloke. And he used to say to me, Max, it's just common sense. It's just common sense.

used to say that all the time. So I'd say, but surely, know, requirements gathering or whatever it is you're doing, whatever the product is, like, well, of course you do that. said, that's what I'm telling you, Maddy. well, it's just common sense. It's all common sense. It's not that common.

Mark Pratt (14:02)
What do you about Common Sense Max? Very good.

Max (14:09)
So that was the first bit of formal training I'd had. So I came out of that thinking I can definitely run my Prince2 project in this local authority. that, that dream and that little bubble burst after about the first week when I realised that you'd be lucky to get anybody to own up to sponsoring change, let alone run an actual formalized Prince2 project. And like, I'm sure you've seen, Mark, a lot of places will ask for these qualifications, then won't adopt that process in any way,

form.

Mark Pratt (14:39)
Yeah, absolutely. think...

My experience is actually quite similar to yours. I was kind of winging it using common sense and knowledge of the business and everything. And being a project manager for a few years before I bit the bullet and I personally self-funded my Prince 2 training, it was. yeah, I think my reflection would be that those kind of two or three plus years of kind of doing it first before then getting the formal qualification.

invaluable rather than the other way round. I think if you comment it just from the pure theory it's quite abstract. It's only after you've had the opportunity to work in sort of in and around projects that the theory starts to make a lot more sense.

Max (15:19)
Yes.

But I didn't regret doing it and it did give me some confidence and it did make me look better on paper. So none of those things, I don't regret any of it at all. So I spent then about five years working in a local authority. The kind of member officer environment is very different, not-for-profit environment is very different. In a local authority you are all things to all people, you're not...

Mark Pratt (15:34)
Absolutely.

Max (15:56)
a niche lender to A's, B's and C1's or whatever they're called. You are everything to everyone. And I learned a lot working there and I enjoyed working there. And I also got to learn about the Vanguard method, Lean and Systems Thinking, which was really crucial in terms of understanding about waste into work and about how not having experts in a process might sound

Mark Pratt (16:02)
Mm-hmm.

Max (16:25)
cheaper way of doing things but ultimately will cost your organization more money and about really putting the customer at the heart of what you do and measuring what matters and that type of thing. So I learnt loads and also while I was there for five years I was there I had the opportunity to become a leadership coach so I did some studying I did a whole hours and hours with coaching.

And I a qualification and I became executive leadership coach and mentor. But I was quite proud of at the time because this was set at postgraduate level and considering I'd never even graduated and I passed mine first time when lots of other much cleverer people were still resubmitting theirs two and three times, I was a little bit feeling a bit pleased with myself. And of course, the other thing is you use coaching skills in your job.

all day, every day. So those five years were a good five years, but it was not my dream gig working there.

Mark Pratt (17:21)
Okay, so you've...

Sure, okay. So you've got your project management wings, you've got your professional qualification, you've worked in kind of change and innovation for a few years. You've now taken the coaching side of things. yeah, bring us up to the present day, the leap you made into contracting and some of the subsequent deliveries you've been involved in.

Max (17:50)
So decided that I wanted something bigger, better. I was still quite ambitious back then. I thought I could do more and I started to apply for other jobs. And my children were quite young at the time, so I was kind of...

always dallying between am I going to go full time and really go for this? Can I make it work? All those sort of practicalities of going to work. And so I started to look for work, got offered a couple of jobs. Inevitably, I look very strong on the operational side of things. you know, I'd got, I'd been offered some good jobs with fairly good money, but I don't know, it didn't seem quite right. And one day, a good friend of mine who used to work

for me when I worked for Charlton Munglosta rang me up to say I'm working at Lloyds Bank I'm working on this huge integration program I just don't have enough pair of hands how about you come and work for me and but you'll have to come contracting I can't offer you a job but I can offer you probably six months work at a day rate or all the risk is yours you'll need to do you'll need to make it work need you in London a couple of days a week but I just want

a safe pair of hands and somebody's gonna help me get this stuff done. So I jumped off a cliff and I did it! But it did feel like jumping off a cliff at the time. Just, yeah, because I hadn't set out to go contracting. I didn't even know the thing. I didn't even know that, I didn't even know what contracting was.

Mark Pratt (19:17)
Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, we've heard that before,

Max (19:31)
until somebody said, I will offer you a day rate. and by the way, it looks like an eye watering day rate because the first thing you do as a salaried person who hasn't heard of contracting is you take that day rate, which was quite modest at the time, but not to me, you calculate it out and you multiply it by five and then you multiply it by four and a half weeks and you think, I'm going to be rich beyond my wildest dreams. And it's just this.

So yeah, it quite a shock.

Mark Pratt (20:03)
back in those halicom days when IR35 wasn't a thing, I'm guessing.

Max (20:09)
Yeah, the divvies were good. Yeah, the dividends were good. So yeah, it felt like a huge jump to leave permanent work for, I can give you six months work if you're lucky. I needed.

Mark Pratt (20:13)
Amazing.

Yeah, and then with the benefit of hindsight now Max, how you know obviously it felt like a big deal at the time but yeah share with the listeners how you kind of feel about that now.

Max (20:41)
no regrets. Absolutely none whatsoever. Obviously, everybody's individual circumstances need to be taken into account. know, the way people, you know, some people have got very expensive lifestyles and it's really important for them to maintain that. So everybody's got their own map of the world in that regard. So.

your own personal circumstances aside, if you're just waiting for the stars to align all the time or some sort of guarantee or some sort of, well, when I finish this contract, will I get another one? It just will never happen, which is perhaps why there is more risk, but there is more reward associated with contracting. And also it's not for everyone.

Mark Pratt (21:27)
Absolutely.

Max (21:27)
It isn't for everyone. So you know, you might want to say no to this and I would totally get that. Totally get that. But I was ready to take a chance and I'm really, really glad I did. No regrets whatsoever.

Mark Pratt (21:44)
For anyone who is interested in delving a little bit more into that, we've got one of the articles on the Pulse community. It's an article called Monkey Branching or Leap of Faith and it's about that critical of risk-based analysis of do you just kind of go for it or do you need to secure one thing before you leave another like a monkey leaping from one tree to another. that's that people might find that interesting. So Max, you've obviously worked on a lot of amazing stuff.

across your career. What would you say is the most impactful project of work and what made it significant for you?

Max (22:26)
as probably two. One of them is where I worked in a bank and I implemented a new target operating model into their branch network. I know that doesn't sound very sexy or very exciting, but the reason that it was quite exciting is because it was just me, just me.

Everything else was, I was the entire project team. I did have a little bit of help, which I can tell you about, but generally it was just me and many, many, many, many, stakeholders. And target operating model sounds simple. A few role name changes, bit of this, that and the other.

Mark Pratt (23:02)
Mm-hmm.

Max (23:09)
But it isn't. Everything from union engagement to MI and reporting to technical change under the bonnet to reflect new geographies, new roles, new structures, new hierarchies. And I'm just really proud of it because I did a really, really good job and I worked really, really well with all the stakeholders and got it delivered on time, on budget.

and everybody's still kind of smiling at the end of it. I absolutely loved it. I like the variety in it as well.

Mark Pratt (23:45)
The perfect project on time on budget to quality. Perfect. And the other one?

Max (23:49)
Yep. It's probably the work that you and I did together on the branch alignment. In terms of why, the team of people were great and that is a big deal because you can do some quite tedious work when you've got a great... If the job's not that great, but you've got a great team, you'd be surprised what you can do. But...

In this scenario, both the team and the work was great. And I just, I learned a lot from you in that program of work. And I learned a lot about just good solid delivery, getting done, getting better.

you know, tons of lessons learned out of that. I still think about that work today. I still use that in work that I do today. And seeing how you described different ways of attacking problems and solutions to a problem that I hadn't really seen before or hadn't really been exposed to make me think, all right, not everything has to be cookie cutter then.

do you know what mean? Because somebody else, this geezer's just said we could do it another way and that has also helped give me the confidence to talk to people in my projects now about saying, why don't you do half of it now and half of it later then? Why don't you do something different? And I'm not sure I would have got there naturally without seeing that in action. So probably those two really.

Mark Pratt (25:30)
It was very kind of you to say, just to share a little bit more context about that project. The branch alignment project was going back to Max's CAG experience there. were carving out the Verde project, was carving out the new TSB bank.

that got launched back I think 2013 now I think it was 2011, one of those two years, long time ago. we, our job as part of an overall program, a program within a program.

was to align the capability of what were known as heritage C &G branches, so all the branches that used to be child and mcloster branches, so mortgage and saving branches, up to the full capability of a full banking branch, so to have the capability to sell and service current accounts and credit cards and loans and things of that nature, which was both a huge system and people change.

It was very intense, we got to do it in quite a short time frame, quite challenging, roaming around the country, improving our processes each weekend, working back to back, 90 days without a break, all this kind of stuff. So very, very intense, but also very, very rewarding. We very lucky to have an amazing team on that project. And yeah, I too look back on that project with very, very fond memories. Yeah, was a privilege to work on it with you, Max, so thank you.

Okay, on then. Tell us about the mistakes or pitfalls you've encountered while on your journey. it's not all a bed of roses. It can be very, very challenging. So tell me some of the key mistakes or pitfalls that you've made and then subsequently learned from. hopefully help others to avoid them.

Max (26:59)
That's great.

I think probably my biggest learnings, I mean, still every day is a school day, but I suppose early on when I was running the mortgage application centre, I'm going back 25, 30 years now, but I was like a stick of rock through the middle. It said Cheltenham and Gloucester in blue throughout. I loved working there. I mean, I loved it.

And I couldn't understand why everybody wouldn't feel exactly the same. Didn't want to devote their lives to the cause. Didn't want to work late for no money.

I think a life in operations prepares you for almost everything. Where people sit, the canteen, the car park, falling out with each other, budgets, head counts, you literally deal with everything and then when you've got time you do the work. Everything is down to you and a lot of stuff comes from non-work issues. There's just nothing you don't deal with in a large operational team and that can cause frustration at times but it also teaches you some empathy and understanding.

and it helps you understand people in a way that you just couldn't learn. You just couldn't, you just could not learn it anywhere else. I always used to say, your staff are your most difficult customer, as in that they're all right there in front of you looking at you going, what are you going to do now? And you need to do, you need to do something.

And because I loved working there, I sometimes used to assume that everybody else did. So not everyone's map of the world is the same as yours. So whatever your position in life, in your work, in your personal life, it is about seeing that other person's point of view. I mean, really seeing that other person's point of view and trying to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes and asking questions and that type of thing.

Mark Pratt (29:25)
That's really solid advice that I would echo. Thanks for that Max. Okay, let's move on now into kind of contracting. So as we record this now towards the end of 2024, the market for kind of contracting and some of the project management disciplines and so on has become sort of numerically more challenging. There appear to be, there's no official statistics or anything like that, but it appeared to be sort of less

less vacancies and less opportunity in the market, various different reasons, but yeah, there seems to be less opportunity at this moment in time. But I think experience tells us that markets change, they go up, they go down. There's been fallow periods before and also boom periods as well. I think one of the things I'd love you to share with everyone, Max, is your approach to winning new work because I have to say, I've learned a lot from you in that regard, the way that you go.

about presenting yourself to the market, the way you keep up your network, the way you always seem to have your finger on the pulse of what's happening with lots of different people. So why don't you share some of that kind of less commonly observed behaviour around how you go about kind of retaining and winning and developing new opportunities for your own kind of contracting business.

Max (30:52)
Well, recently, as you know, I've been looking for work, so I've had some direct experience of what the market is like.

right now and you're absolutely right, it's quieter. It just is. There isn't no opportunity. There's just less opportunity. In fact, there's plenty of opportunity. It's just that in a world where hiring managers and recruiters can be fussy, then they can ask for unicorns and they can find unicorns. So it's just about, it's not about no work. It's just about less work. So it's about trying to,

Well, it's about picking up the phone and it's about building relationships. Nobody got a job from commenting on a recruiter's post. I'm free. Like nobody.

Nobody has got that. Probably my learnings over the last few months have been job sites, I'm going to make a sweeping generalization here, but job sites have always been and still are rubbish. I've turned off the alerts because I don't want to be a dentist or a design project engineer or a customer service representative.

the need for roles in the market continues to change and always will. So you can cry about it. You can do something about it. Somebody said to me the other day, a really good person who's very, very good at what they do. Been out of work for a couple of months after having probably two odd years in a good gig. Nice work. Two years, good stretch. I said, have you seen this on LinkedIn? I was throwing something his way and he said,

I said I'll send you the link and he said I hate social media and you know when you think

I don't need to hate or love social media. I just need some work. Why would you care where it comes from? Why wouldn't you just be me? And I don't get it. So yeah, I think the job sites aren't particularly, aren't like the likely source of your next great new opportunity. Data and tech continues to be prevalent, of course, but

a highly recommended good BA with some technical skills for example is more in demand than a good all-around generalist PM like me so you know I need to accept that it's up to me to do something with that something different or live with the fact that there are less opportunities and what comes with that but I suppose the biggest thing really and I know this will be no surprise to you whatsoever but you only get

decent work through people you know or friends of friends. I think in a market where supply outstrips demand, I've got that the right way

Mark Pratt (33:44)
Hehe.

Max (33:53)
recruiters, hiring managers, agencies, don't need to pick strangers. And in anyone's world, a stranger feels like a bigger risk.

Instead, the people that are in your kind first and second tier network who are usually in work because they're so good and they're never available, all of a sudden they are available.

Max (34:13)
can afford to be choosy and as well they might.

and I would do exactly the same and if I knew that Mark was my best person for this job he's more likely to be free than he ever was before and if Mark doesn't know I know he'll give me a solid recommendation I don't need to hire strangers I just don't need to do that so find some cheerleaders and nurture them do the recruiter's job for them and stop slagging them because that is not going to get it doesn't do you any good it doesn't make you feel better it's not going to get you job and when I say do recruiters job for them I mean

If you're waiting for them to get back to you, well, why? You you can pick up the phone and you can get back to them. Having meetings like this is better than a phone call because people have more of a connection when they can see the whites of each other's eyes. I've done loads of chats on Teams with consultancies and recruiters. They've all gone really well. It doesn't mean to they've all resulted in work, but I believe I'll be more memorable because we met in that way, we met in person.

doing this recruiters job for them, what I mean by that is often they will be up against other agencies for work. So if they have presented you with a spec for a role, instead of them trying to work out the five magic bullets, as I call them, as to why you should, why, why.

The hiring manager should pick up your CV rather than somebody else's when they get 20 on their desk with five different agencies. Write the five magic bullets that absolutely match what they want. You know when they say in supermarkets, you asked and we gave you.

that's what you should do. You asked for somebody who's got experience of migrating financial data to the cloud in the last two years. Well, go back and say the data migration that you've done to the cloud. Do you know what I mean? Be very specific about those things, write it for them and respond.

immediately. Stop whatever it is you're doing. Cancel your coffee with your mate because you've got time on your hands because you're out of work and respond immediately. Don't get huffy and sniffy about what I've already made arrangements for this afternoon. Fine, because time kills all deals, doesn't it? So fine. You know, you've got to be in it to win it.

Mark Pratt (36:39)
Absolutely right. think for anyone who's kind of been listening along this right here now, this last few minutes.

technology accepting this is the real gold dust in this conversation. So really do take note. You can choose to agree, disagree, follow the advice or not. But what Max is sharing here now is the difference between the people who are winning the work and the people who are not winning the work in my opinion. And I think Max would share that opinion. I personally have seen...

Max (37:09)
Thank

Mark Pratt (37:12)
Quite a number of people, obviously have a large number of kind of contractors, particularly contractors who are seeking new opportunities right now in my network. And I see them on platforms, on LinkedIn, know, bashing recruiters, you know, saying that, you know, people aren't getting back to them. So on spending time, investing time and emotional energy in that activity, rather than taking the extreme personal accountability that I think is required.

having the extreme resilience to say, okay, those guys have got their job to do, but my job is to get myself my next role. It's not anybody else's responsibility, it's my responsibility. And only when you would take and accept that level of personal accountability and responsibility for developing your own pipeline of work, are you going to elevate yourself in a depressed market to the point where you're the one that's winning the work versus your competitors, basically. So this is the real gold dust.

right there. Max, I'd like to focus in specifically because a lot of people talk about networking and so on, but no one really, you know, it's not really well defined. So do want to share a few little insights of just a little kind of tactical bits and pieces that you do to network with others and continue to develop your relationships? Because I do think this is something that you're absolutely world class at and I'd love you to kind of lift a little bit on the things that you probably think are just straightforward and basic, but honestly, they'll be.

You know revelations to some so, you know, give it give us some insights on that

Max (38:47)
Not enough people see value in building relationships and so they just see, they only see value in winning work.

Mark Pratt (38:53)
Mm-hmm.

Max (38:55)
You're not a freelancer then is what I would say. There's too many day rate contracts out there and not enough freelancing self-employed people. My favourite expression is if you're running a fruit and veg shop, who do you think is going to promote your produce? Who's responsible for selling your apples and pears? If you want more business, ask for it. And if it feels uncomfortable or it feels bit squeaky bum or you feel a bit awkward ringing somebody that you've never spoken to before, or it feels a bit cheap,

Mark Pratt (38:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Max (39:25)
or all of those things, then maybe this isn't for you. Or maybe you could take a chance and see how it goes, because what is the worst that could happen?

You don't have to do any of these things, but if you don't have a contract in a market where supply is outstripping demand, I'm not sure where you think you're going to get it from. It isn't from commenting on a post that says, I'm free. It just isn't. I mentioned earlier about the best place to get the right work for you is through people you know or friends of friends. So I'll often say,

Mark Pratt (40:04)
Mm-hmm.

Max (40:07)
to people and I get a lot of people getting in touch with me asking you know what are you doing what's your tactics that type of thing I give them my tactics and they don't like them but it's there for the taking so a couple of things so

You could go back through your CV and look, go back maybe 10 years and think, I'll say to people, who did you absolutely love working for? Who absolutely loved you? Not liked you, I mean, loved you. Thought you were the best thing since sliced bread.

When was the last time you spoke to that person? When was the last time you had a coffee with that person? When did last time you got in touch with them? And then they'll say, but they've been at Billy Big Bank for 10 years. They're not hiring. They don't need anyone. Well, firstly, those are limiting assumptions. So you're limiting your progress because you're making a whole heap of assumptions just because that person hasn't said on LinkedIn, I need a contract project manager. How do you know that they wouldn't make space for a great contract project manager?

like you because they thought you were the best thing since sliced bread. The other thing is, Mark, you and I have talked about this, we've worked with some fantastic people, but over time people go from here and they move to the back of the brain. Not because they weren't absolutely exceptional or fantastic, but just because we meet a lot of people, we work in a lot of teams, we've hired a lot of people. People just fade, not because they're not fantastic.

Mark Pratt (41:35)
Yeah.

Max (41:50)
So how can you get back up to the front and stay there? Well, the answer is by making contact, having established regular contact. So meeting them for a coffee, meeting virtually, having a chat, dropping them a note, all of those things, and then doing it again a few weeks later.

Because even if they don't need you, they might need you in three weeks time. Even if they don't need you, they might know a man or a woman who does. And I'll still go back to your best opportunity for work is through good people you know who are your cheerleaders. So go back and build those cheerleaders up and get into the forefront of their mind and move from the back to the front, get remembered again.

Mark Pratt (42:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. think the adder, and I know that you think this because we have had these conversations in the past, the adder I would add here is that if you're out of work and you're feeling it most acutely, you kind of you can end up smelling a little bit of desperation. You kind of straight in for the kill. Have you got any work? And both sides of that conversation can feel that there's an agenda. So the best time to network is without agenda, without any expectation of getting

something in return. People can feel that and they know you're just kind of getting in touch because there might be some work. I get messages regularly from people who have worked with in the past and so on, but they're only contacting me when their situation is acute and they want something and I can smell that and I can smell that, they can smell that and that's just not networking. That is outreach when you need something and it can

diminishes the relationship so I would absolutely encourage everybody you know keep your your little black book which I'll just come on to in a second you know keep it fresh all the time not just when you need it the best time to network is when you're in a role and you don't need it the best the best way to develop great relationships is give before you receive you know all those sort of cliches that's the best way to do it yeah

Max (43:59)
Yes.

100%, 100%. And if it feels like it's a job, well, it'll be a job when you're out of work. I'll tell you that. Then it'll be a right old job because you'll have to dig right from the bottom to build yourself back up again. And that isn't easy.

Mark Pratt (44:11)
Yeah. 100%.

Max (44:24)
And that requires a bit more front and a bit more brass neck. That, I can see how it's awkward. I know I haven't spoken to you for six years, but I've been looking for a job for three months and I'm desperate. Any danger? Yeah. You know, smell my desperation over the airwaves kind of thing. That isn't going to work. another thing I'd say is LinkedIn is for life, not just for Christmas. So everybody's so anti LinkedIn at the moment. But I'm not saying it's going, it's the source of your next dream gig.

but it is part of a range of things and tools available to you in your tool belt. And if you throw enough mud at getting a job, some of it will stick, as I've found out over the last couple of weeks. it is...

Why wouldn't you do it? Why is it such a harm to comment and share great roles and opportunities even when you're looking at it thinking, I'm not your man or woman for this architecture gig, but it just sounds like the most exciting, I love sharing exciting roles. I can't do them.

But somebody can, and some of these look like such interesting projects. My client needs this to happen by this date. It's so exciting. I'd love to work on the project, but I'm not the man for the job, but I'd love to work on this project.

Mark Pratt (45:34)
Yeah, yeah.

Totally, that is a real life example of that law of reciprocity in action. It's nothing to you, there's no opportunity there for you, but by giving, giving, giving, you're more likely to get something coming back the other way when you need it. Just focusing in on a couple of practical aspects then Max, do you set aside some time every week, every day to keep your network fresh? Is it a little bit more ad hoc than that?

of the people that you choose to network with and the activity that you do. Have you got a little black book, a spreadsheet, a CRM system? Practically just share with everyone how you approach that.

Max (46:30)
Probably not that systematic or practical, but when I'm out of work, I put a lot of time and effort into it. And I also follow it up. So I don't give up at the first hurdle. I've also experimented with new, when I'm doing what I would call cold outreach. So I don't know, maybe I've seen a recruiter that I'm not connected with who looks like they're sharing some interesting roles that I can't do.

Mark Pratt (46:48)
Yeah.

Max (46:57)
So I would immediately, but my mate Mark has liked their post. So I get to see it on my newsfeed. somebody who hires people, somebody who's hiring interesting work, I can't do that particular work and I'm not connected to them. So I would immediately send a connection request to that person. As soon as they've accepted, I would immediately follow up, usually with an email in the first instance. So I'm talking about really cold, absolutely zero.

relationship, barely a mutual connection type of thing. I've experimented with trying to send something a little bit different. So instead of saying, thank you for accepting my connection request, I am a project manager. I can do a plan on a budget and manage risk. I've

try to experiment with something a little bit different and something less formal because I'm trying to take a bit of a chance that somebody might read this email versus not read it. I know that these chances are very slim, that the likelihood of results on that type of thing are low, but I have made good new contacts. I have had banter back and forth and responses back and forth. I have people now that I believe

I could talk to in the future that I couldn't have talked to before. So it isn't all about, I saw Jim, the recruiter advertising for jobs. I sent him a connection. I emailed him, but he didn't give me a job. That's not why I connected with them. I'm trying to build my network of the future because I'll need it.

Mark Pratt (48:33)
Yeah, exactly, exactly, spot on.

up

Max (48:42)
because you always, you always need it. And like I said, I've tried to experiment with less formal things, know, catchy subject lines. And I've also tried to experiment with a bit of a different CV. So Mark, I know you and I have seen thousands and thousands of CVs. And again, CV is just one very small part of a process.

Mark Pratt (49:07)
Yeah.

Max (49:08)
But the amount of CVs that I've seen that look like a job description for a project manager, I am no further forward in, you have no more come to life on that piece of paper in front of me than you had before I had the piece of paper. So what you're telling me is you do everything that a project manager does. Okay. Well, so I assumed that.

Mark Pratt (49:31)
Yeah.

Max (49:35)
And if you can't, wouldn't give you house room. So what is it about you that you individually bring that makes you different? What is about the way you run projects or you run pieces of work?

What is it about your personality that makes you different? Otherwise, if you're a cookie cutter project manager, and there isn't anything wrong with that, it's just that you're trying to come to life to a stranger. How do you lift yourself up from the two-dimensional to the three-dimensional when I'm not in front of you and you've just got a black and white CV? Take some chances. Take some chances. Say some stuff.

Mark Pratt (50:13)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Max (50:18)
Say some stuff that other people wouldn't say in their CV. Take a chance, see what happens. Experiment. Do it in your CV and see if it had an impact.

Mark Pratt (50:23)
Absolutely. I think that goes back to market circumstances. think when the demand is very high and the supply isn't necessarily there, having that more generic, I can do the job perfectly adequately, you know, CV, that's when you're probably more likely.

get opportunities and win work. I think when the market is the way it currently is, that you really do need to stand out in those sort of ways that you suggest. We're not going to get into the whole IR35 debate just now. I'll save that for another podcast. I guess as well, kind of boils down to really deciding for yourself, are you a business, are you a service provider, or are you a worker, are you looking for a job?

Max (50:43)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mark Pratt (51:13)
and there's lots of different ways that people will articulate the difference there. But unless you are willing to invest in your business through.

marketing effectively which networking is one of those marketing channels people might not think of it in those in that parlance but yeah that's definitely investing time every day every week into building your pipeline of opportunities building future relationships that is the business oriented approach to you know contract project management

freelance project management as you say versus just moving from role to role as if you're kind of short-term employed. There's lots of different terminologies in there but that's the difference and that's the mindset. If you want to have those outside IR35 business oriented opportunities you do have to operate like a business and invest in your business and market your business. I think would be my sort of key advice around that.

Max (51:47)
Yeah.

And I think you can also...

You're adding to your network all the time. You're seeing different things on your newsfeed. Sometimes you can match A and B together and introduce them after loads of introductions. And sometimes that's had a really, really happy ending. Well, I definitely think you're remembered for that. I didn't get anything out of it. Although I did get a great deal of pleasure seeing somebody land a job and a client that was happy because they've got somebody who's good for their job. So it's, it's a really, really,

lovely thing to do. I've just been able to do that recently and...

I believe I can go back to those people in, you know, in a few months time, perhaps when I'm looking for work again, I can say, you know, I did that. can remind them, remember we met and I was able to put this chap in front of you. I know he's done a great job for you. I'd still love to come and help you out kind of thing. So it's about having that. It's about the emotional currency in the bank and having that to fall back on obviously in a genuine way. But that's the way the world works, right?

Mark Pratt (53:26)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. think people are going to take a lot of value from, if they accept it in the right way, I think people are going to take a lot of value from what you've shared there. thank you for being so open about the way you approach that aspect of it. Let's move on then next. So has there been a piece of advice or a quote that's been particularly influential in your career?

I know you've got lots of your little sayings that you'll try out from time to time, but give us one of your favourites.

Max (54:05)
I suppose I would say couple of things. I would say manage what you've got.

So every time you take on a new contract, there's risks, you won't know everything. You might get a bit of imposter syndrome. I know you would never have got that, but I might have done from time to time. You might be crying in the toilets on day three. I know you wouldn't be, but I might have been. so there's all sorts of things kind of going on. get this role, because contracting is a roller coaster. I haven't got a job, I haven't got a job, I need a job, I need a job, I'm looking for a job, I'm looking for a job. I've had an interview, I've had an interview, it's gone.

well, yay, yay, I got a job, started my job. my God, I don't know what I'm doing. The stakeholders are all a tricky and then I'm happy again. And that's what I'm kissing. And that's why it isn't for everyone. But also there is usually a lot more opportunity to learn and keep sucking more experience in. You then get to reinvent yourself a little bit for the next job that you apply for and reinvent yourself a little bit every time. So.

Mark Pratt (54:53)
Yeah.

Max (55:11)
But what comes of that roller coaster is that you need to manage what you've got. What I mean by that is stop trying to change what's in front of you, manage what you're given and do it differently. It's not about, maybe you're right and maybe they're wrong, but it's not about being right. It's about being honest in helpful way. You might know you're right, but you know, it's not a sex expression. give our...

We give our lives meaning if you feel like your life is meaning meaningless, that's your fault so if you can't if there's a tricky stakeholder a busy sponsor Or somebody's giving you a resource and you kind of think exactly what I was looking for

It's about thinking what can I do with them? What can I do differently? I learned a lot about stakeholder management when I worked with a lady called Sarah, when I worked on a huge program of work in Lloyds, on Verdi actually, to create and set up TSB Bank. We had a really, really tricky stakeholder, but a very, important stakeholder. And this might sound really obvious to a lot of people, but Sarah's, what I learned from Sarah was,

keep your friends close and your enemies closer. So it's quite natural to want to spend less time with somebody who's tricky and prickly, but the answer of course is to spend more time with them or spend different time with them. So I would always say manage what you've got. That other project that I spoke about previously that I was really proud of about a new operating model in a bank, I was kind of really up against it. I could just see that there was tons and tons of work and I wasn't, and I could really have done with a business analyst.

you know, that would have really helped me with the heavy lifting. So I asked for a full-time business analyst and I got a three-day a week just return from maternity leave risk officer from the branch network. And you know when you think, okay, what am I going to do there? But actually...

She knew the branch network really well. She had great relationships. I gave her things that she was most likely to succeed in. She'd just returned from maternity leave, so she was feeling little bit wobbly. So achieving something small early on was quite important to her. Do you know, it was actually fantastic. But I do remember being quite silky in a bit. That's not what I wanted. That's not what I need. It's going to be more use than ornament. I was quite huffy about it.

but I kind of had a little word with myself and gave her some appropriate things that were appropriate to a lady in risk and that type of thing. And she absolutely flew with it and I think she probably learned a lot. So I've got, would you want another, do you want another one or is that enough for now?

Mark Pratt (58:03)
Solid advice.

No, no, please, please share. We're here to learn from you, Max.

Max (58:11)
So, remember and use people's name as often as you can. It's probably seems like a really small piece of advice, but it's so important. It's attention grabbing. It's personal. It's important to them. You ask most people about how they, even if they're not egotistical,

they're nice easygoing people but what happens when somebody gets your name wrong? And people kind of go a bit... They don't like it. Nobody really likes it. It's a big deal. It's important to them. And I think...

can't remember who said it, but there's a saying something like, a person's name is to that person, the most important sound in any language. And I think that's so true. It's so impactful. It's so respectful. So I've employed all sorts of tactics over the years to remember people's names. I'm not really prepared to divulge them. But I'll give you one, but you take the name and you use it and you address them with it. And if you want to be heard, it's much better to say.

Mark and then ask your question.

Mark Pratt (59:31)
Simple, powerful advice, brilliant. And it does resonate actually because the amount of people who get in touch with me and say, Matt, have you got any jobs going? Is insane, so yeah, I hear you.

Max (59:42)
Yes, and you don't really, you're not mortally wounded by it or offended and you're not crying about it, but you're also thinking, yeah.

Mark Pratt (59:53)
Yeah, totally, Okay, looking to the future then, finally. How do you see the landscape evolving in the next sort of five, 10 years in both contracting and project management? How do you see that landscape evolving?

Max (1:00:11)
Okay, so I think for generalists like me, there is already less of a need for people like me than there used to be. When you need one, you need one.

When you want somebody who can really focus on business side of change somebody who can be the bridge between IT and the business I think everyone that absolutely are those jobs out there, but there are less of them than there were five to ten years ago That's a fact if you if you don't like that do something about your own skills And get with the program I think as we know the markets a little bit light at the moment But I do think we are going to see more fractional consulting. I know it's quite a it's quite a popular thing but

you know I still hear too much day rate contracting going on how long's the contract for what's the notice period it's only three months three months I'd take three weeks work why wouldn't I you know it and so this and people who don't want to piece two contracts

Mark Pratt (1:01:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Max (1:01:14)
together to make themselves full time. So I think we will see an increase in consultancy type services where people will say, I'd love two days of your services a week or like one day of your services a week. And people might be happy to work two days a week or they might think that's not really enough or I want more. So they'll be handling multiple clients at once. I definitely think we will see more of that. My recent

conversations with other consultancies tell me they want to move to that model. And whilst there isn't a guarantee of work, that doesn't exist anywhere.

there is the opportunity to say you're staying relevant with that consultancy because you're saying yeah she did a couple of days a week for us just before Christmas and that kind of worked out so I believe that there will be more of that. Data and tech will continue to be a growth area and there will be more of that and I think in terms of contracting there will always be a need for temporary.

help. But there might just be less of it at the moment. So you need to show how you can make a difference.

Mark Pratt (1:02:28)
Yeah.

I I agree. mean, my view for what it's worth is I see kind of the macro environment actually increasing in terms of kind of that temporary freelance interim contract variations of work. actually see the market for that increasing.

quite a lot. Right now, obviously, the market is in a little bit more of depressed position, but I think that that is the macro direction of travel. I think around the fractional piece, we're living in a really interesting time where we're still, all of us in this sort of profession, deliver knowledge work, work out of our brains, not with our hands, but we're still measuring it like we're back in the Victorian sweat houses. You must turn up at nine and you must go home at five and you must

Max (1:03:13)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (1:03:20)
taken out for your lunch and you must be on site. Obviously some of that's been disrupted with Covid but there's some of that noise still occurring, people coming back to the office and all that kind of thing. And that's a simple blunt instrument to measure people's output, how long they were there.

because a lot of organisations haven't yet reached the level of maturity where they're able to actually put in place tangible, measurable outcomes. And it's just easier to hire someone for a day than to produce a thing that's hard for me to define. It's a little bit intangible. So I think once we catch up in terms of measuring people's outcomes rather than their input, their time, I do think that's the way that many of us certainly in the kind of, if you deliver knowledge,

work that's how I think we'll we'll end up working but I think we're just in a period of time where the you know that the way that we measure it has just not yet caught up so yeah interesting okay

Max (1:04:16)
Hmm. Enjoy.

Mark Pratt (1:04:18)
And let's wrap it up Max with final thoughts around, none of us have all got it figured out, we all have kind of our challenges. What are the challenges that even with all of the experience and the journey that you've been on, what are the challenges that you still grapple with when you're in role or you're looking for a role?

Max (1:04:38)
Well, you do have to dig deep sometimes, you know, you think, OK, Monday's come around quick, still haven't landed that dream gig. And I think it is easy to get disheartened.

But I think you need to choose what you read and what news you listen to. Do you know what I mean? It's not going to make you feel better by seeing on your newsfeed, it's month nine, I can't pay the electricity bill. I don't mean that that problem isn't real for that person, not at all.

Mark Pratt (1:04:59)
pretty sure.

Mm-hmm.

Max (1:05:14)
That's not going to help you on a Monday morning where you need to dig deep again and think, right, who am going to speak to today? And that's where applying a bit of structure. don't always have a spreadsheet, but I do have follow-up notes to go back because I've had lots of good conversations with people, but I know that I, went there, but then I'm starting to move back again. So I just want to go keep moving from back to front of mind all the time. that, that's what teams is great for stuff like that.

It's better than an email. It's a bit less formal. I text or WhatsApp, saw this today, thought of you. you mentioned three weeks ago, you're looking for a great data architect. I'm not a data architect. I do know this guy, he's still looking. Did you manage to find somebody? So find a way to connect that isn't necessarily about you or... Mark, do you have any project manager jobs going today, please? No.

There are other ways that you can help people and stay in touch with people without saying, give us a job. And then take, then you can in more, better context and with a bit more authenticity say, by the way, I'm still available. We must do that coffee. We must do a coffee again soon kind of thing. So, hey, to say those things, but it can't all be one way.

Mark Pratt (1:06:22)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So Max, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. think some of the insights that you've shared have been super valuable. I'd absolutely implore people to go back and listen again to that section where Max outlined exactly how she attacks networking and going outside of job boards to really develop relationships, to really win work. This is something that not many people do. So immediately you elevate yourself into the top percentage points of people.

Max (1:06:50)
Thank you.

Mark Pratt (1:07:15)
and the opportunity to win you work if you follow some of that advice that Max has given you there. So thank you very much for sharing that Max, been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. All right, that's great. Cheers. Thanks very much Max. Bye bye.

Max (1:07:25)
Okay, thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. Bye.