Stop Trying to Do It All: How Boundaries Create Better Leaders

"In project management, relationships aren’t optional—they’re essential." 

Summary
In this episode of the Pulse podcast, Mark Pratt interviews Lisa Ali, a seasoned project manager with extensive experience in the public sector. Lisa shares her journey into project management, emphasising the importance of networking, personal branding, and the ability to adapt in various roles. She discusses her impactful projects, particularly with the Associated Press, and the lessons learned from her experiences. Lisa also offers valuable advice for aspiring project professionals, highlights the significance of technology in the field, and reflects on the future of interim work amidst changing regulations. The conversation concludes with insights on leadership, continuous learning, and the importance of honesty in professional growth.

Key Takeaways

✨ Lisa fell into project management by accident.
✨ Networking and word of mouth are crucial for career growth.
✨ Being flexible and relentless is key to success.
✨ You are only as good as your last project.
✨ Building relationships is essential in project management.
✨ Luck plays a role in career opportunities.
✨ Creating boundaries is important for interim professionals.
✨ Technology is changing the landscape of project management.
✨ Understanding change management theory is valuable.
✨ Don't be afraid to admit when you don't know something.

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Mark and the team!

Transcript

Mark Pratt (00:01.526)
So welcome everyone to another edition of the Pulse podcast. I'm Mark Pratt and today we've got a great guest for you, Lisa Alley. Lisa's got a fabulous background in delivering projects, predominantly in the public sector, which I'm sure we'll get into. And yeah, really looking forward to today's conversation. So Lisa, welcome to the podcast.

Lisa Ali (00:28.678)
Thank very much for having me, Mark. I appreciate it.

Mark Pratt (00:30.461)
You're very welcome and thank you for giving up your time. I guess where I'd like to start is in my experience, many of the kind of fellow professionals in this game that I speak to never kind of, know, sat down one day at school or aspire to be a project manager or a business analyst or whatever, whatever they ended up being now in their professional careers. So do you want to start with telling us your journey and how you landed in the kind of the project space and how you first kind of broke into?

Lisa Ali (00:46.66)
Hahaha

Mark Pratt (00:59.608)
treating projects as your profession. Let's start from the beginning.

Lisa Ali (01:04.974)
Yeah, I think you're right. I sort of fell into it by accident, really. I used to do sort of some freelance work and more sort of consultancy, so more sort of like reviews of services and, you know, sort of problem solving, but quite a wide range of industries. And then...

One day, and I used to do things like I would look at process, you know, but I wouldn't do it as an analyst. I wouldn't have called myself at that stage a business analyst. And then one day I kind of sort of really fell into it and somebody said to me, you've done process review. And I said, yes, I have done process review, but I've not done it in a very structured or formal way. And this person, you never know, he might watch it, Mark, Mark Basham.

incredibly keen to get me on board and thought I had the right qualities to do the piece of work that they were looking for, which was a business analyst role.

Mark Pratt (02:11.725)
you

Lisa Ali (02:12.382)
in adult social care and sort of 20 years later I'm still you know on and off doing the sort of the same thing. I went into programme and project management. I think it can be unless you're... and I wouldn't consider myself a very analytical person. You know can do business analysis but I'm much more of a kind of a problem solver bringing it together, making it happen, end games sort

Mark Pratt (02:30.19)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (02:42.008)
person. So I've done both programs and projects. I think as an interim there is that thing of flexibility. So if somebody said well we've got this we've got a BA role it's doing X, Y and Z. I wouldn't say never say never. You know I think you have to look at every individual piece of work and see whether you can add value or not.

Mark Pratt (03:06.69)
Yeah.

100%. So that's great. for sharing. Sounds like a really rewarding of fail to be in. I'd to get into that in little bit more detail. So wind us back a little bit then Lisa, because many of the people who are listening to this will be kind of trying to get their break into kind of working on projects or perhaps breaking into contracting or things of that nature. So prior to kind of more formally taking on that business analysis role, what were you kind of in the industry anyway, some kind of subject matter expert in that sector?

Was it sector first and then kind of accidentally into projects? How did that, how did you fall in, so to speak?

Lisa Ali (03:44.397)
No, I think it was more the other way. So I think it was more that there was a job and somebody said, I know Lisa, she might be able to go and do this job.

Mark Pratt (03:46.805)
Okay.

Mark Pratt (03:54.869)
Okay.

Lisa Ali (03:55.974)
And so, and it, and I just remember, and I had a, like it was, it be like a fixed term contract with somebody, and then I went somewhere else, and they're like, aren't you self-employed? And I was like, no, I'm not self-employed. And they're like, well, we don't really want to put you on a contract, we'd rather you could be self-employed, I'll introduce you to an accountant. And that was a completely different role, a completely different field. It was in media, and it was for the,

Mark Pratt (04:21.302)
Yeah.

Okay.

Lisa Ali (04:25.9)
Edinburgh International TV Festival. So I did that and then somebody else said, well, we've got this. And it was, there was a lot of word of mouth back then. mean, you know, I'm going back sort of 20, probably nearly 25 years. So there was a lot more of, we think that this person's got the skills and moving around more in industries. And then I think it was post.

Mark Pratt (04:38.197)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Pratt (04:44.438)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (04:50.059)
Sure.

Lisa Ali (04:55.84)
knew and when I did the BA role that I kind of settled mostly into local government although I have still flipped back out and over into media so I would say I've still done I've done a fair bit in media as well.

Mark Pratt (05:02.837)
Okay.

Mark Pratt (05:11.414)
Okay, awesome. So it's quite unusual actually, in my experience, although I've had a similar experience, is that you of, go freelance and contract an interim, so many different terms used interchangeably, but, and then kind of develop your career kind of from there. Often people are procured in that freelance interim contract way for their specialism and then keep on getting procured for their specialism. It sounds like you've been on quite a journey since you kind of went, yeah, self-employed interim.

contract freelance. that's really interesting. So tell us how some of those opportunities come about. So were you approached by recruiters? Was it people that you networked with? How did you develop some of those kind of opportunities and move from client to client?

Lisa Ali (05:42.416)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (05:59.408)
A lot of it was word of mouth.

and very random things. So when I went to the Edinburgh TV Festival, it was a very random, I used to organise conferences and the director contacted the guy that used to run a of like a trade body and said, do you know anyone who might be able to do this job? And he was like, yeah, you might want to have a word with Lisa, you know. So it was always, was those sort of, it was very,

Mark Pratt (06:21.439)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (06:31.576)
very much word of mouth and very much I think just I do think there's a lot of being in the right place at the right time and if you've got the right and if you I think now I think being an interim you've got to be really flexible but you've got to use your skill sets I don't think you and this is probably a whole other topic but to me I don't think industry is what's what matters it's skill set.

Mark Pratt (06:39.785)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (06:47.348)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Pratt (06:58.494)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Lisa Ali (07:00.134)
that you bring to that, you know. And it was just sort of, it just sort of flowed from there. And then I really can't even remember how I got the call for Newham. And again, and you know what? Gosh, I was such a bolshy young woman back then, you know, I'll be like, why do I want to do that? Why are they ringing me about this? know? I was like,

And I just got some great opportunities and you know, and I went from...

Mark Pratt (07:30.644)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (07:34.502)
doing things like doing some in local government, some in media. The director of the Edinburgh Television Festival went to the BBC. She called me about roles there. You know, I went back into local government. I had people that moved from authorities. So it was really about who I knew at that time.

Mark Pratt (07:57.919)
Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. Well, yeah, I mean, that's certainly one of the things that we're absolutely advocate to the Hill and I think in these, you know,

more modern times of job boards and technology and standing out personally in that word of mouth I think that becomes it's almost like one full circle and that's probably the most important asset that you can have as a self-employed contract type situation to win work. With the benefit of hindsight then Lisa, so obviously to have word of mouth you must have delivered something well for someone in a situation where they know lots of people. With the benefit of

Lisa Ali (08:24.389)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (08:38.134)
were you able to kind of put your finger a little bit more on it? you delivered a particularly great piece of work? Had you worked in a large company? Were you not knew lots of people? Were you deliberate about your kind of networking strategy? Perhaps you didn't realize that was what you were doing as that bolshevik young woman, but try and reflect on it a little bit for us and help others understand how you got those word of mouth opportunities.

Lisa Ali (09:02.298)
think it was, I think you're right, I think it's really quite difficult to pinpoint. And it would come at the most random of times where I'd get a call from somebody and they'd say, ex suggested I should give you a ring. And I'd be like, okay, that's great. I mean, some industries, although they're very big, are very, very small.

Mark Pratt (09:08.466)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (09:12.904)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (09:29.191)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.

Lisa Ali (09:31.59)
People know people who know people and it was quite often that was the way that it was. So I do think it is about, and I say you're only as good as your last project. People can remember if you've done a poor piece of work, thankfully I don't think I ever have, but people will remember that.

Mark Pratt (09:45.672)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Lisa Ali (09:57.05)
they will remember, well, they didn't deliver or they didn't do this. And that can be the end of your career, you know. So you're only as good as the last thing that you've done. And if you've done the last thing relatively well, you know, then that's your opportunity for the next thing. And I think, you know, like that, about, did you know people? How did you do it? I literally feel it just fell into it.

Mark Pratt (10:02.856)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (10:26.234)
but having the right skill set and the ability to deliver and commitment. And I think, you know, a lot of jobs you have to be really, and this is a term that I've heard a lot lately about, you've to be relentless.

Mark Pratt (10:26.375)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (10:41.394)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (10:41.734)
You know, you've got to be relentless. And if you're working to very tight timelines and what have you, or you've got, you know, like there is an event on this day, you can't just go, well, I missed the date. You know, you have to be on top of it. You have to be doing it. So I don't know that that's completely answered your question. But I think I've been lucky as well.

Mark Pratt (11:02.054)
No that's okay, that's okay. I think what...

Lisa Ali (11:08.772)
I think things have come to me when I've not even been looking for them. And they've come to me and they've been brilliant opportunities.

Mark Pratt (11:08.903)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (11:12.604)
Yeah, yeah.

Mark Pratt (11:17.203)
think that's really interesting, know, luck plays an indeterminate part in all of our lives, doesn't it?

perspective on luck, whether you believe that if your eyes are open to an opportunity you'll be luckier or the harder you work you get luckier or just fate. There's all different ways that you could look at that. I would agree that luck plays right place, right time, plays a part for everybody. guess then just coming at it from a slightly different angle because it's really fascinating around your personal brand. Again, you may not

have kind of considered, know, or really overtly engineered your personal brand earlier on in your career, maybe you do or don't now, but how would people have known you back then? So Lisa is the lady who can X. What was the thing that you think that was pulling people towards you? What sort of work had you delivered? What value had you shown time and time again that was kind of attracting people towards, you know, you being the right answer or you

you being someone who sprung to mind as something that they would, who would like to engage.

Lisa Ali (12:29.956)
think that there aren't many women quite like me in a lot of the industries that we've worked in. And, you know, when I first went into local government as an interim,

Mark Pratt (12:42.78)
Okay.

Mark Pratt (12:51.313)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (12:51.618)
It was very much a kind of white, middle, not middle, sort of white, retired, maybe on the way to retirement type of gray man for one of a bet. You know, I came across a lot of people, they've retired, they've gone into the interim world, you know. And so, you know, they're very...

Mark Pratt (13:03.569)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Pratt (13:10.789)
This is...

Lisa Ali (13:17.122)
specific type of person. There weren't many women at all doing what I do. I mean, now it's different. There are many more women. But sort 20, 25 years ago, there weren't that many women working in the interim world. So I think that was the first thing. But I think that it is that confidence that you have to give somebody that you're going to deliver. You have to, you have to...

Mark Pratt (13:28.839)
Okay.

Mark Pratt (13:41.435)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Ali (13:45.666)
either say, yes, I can do this or no, I can't. And I'm not afraid to say, I don't think I'm the right person for you. And I think that's more important than trying to do something that you really can't do and then failing. I think it's better to say, I don't think I'm quite right for you, but hey, there might be somebody that is. So I think there's integrity and honesty.

around what you can and can't do. I think that's a big sort of personal trait to have, like to be honest. And then deliver. You know, it is that thing of delivering. as I say, think relentless. Sometimes you have to be relentless to get to a certain point. And it's about building relationships. I think it's very rare.

that I've not been able to build relationships with the people that you're working with. And I think that...

I think that's anyone that wants to do it. Like we can all fill in pieces of paper and track risks and issues. But if we're not working well with the people that we're, you know, I always say we work with you, we don't do it to you. You know, if we can't work with those people and bring them along, no amount of telling them, well, this is a risk, it's going to make any difference.

Mark Pratt (15:03.867)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (15:12.698)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm... Sorry Lisa, forgive me, I interrupt you. on.

Lisa Ali (15:14.82)
So it's...

Lisa Ali (15:21.688)
No, no, no, no, I think those are the key things. It's about that honesty to be able to say you can do the job with confidence and working with people rather than doing it to them.

Mark Pratt (15:34.138)
Yeah, yeah.

I agree. I think having that kind of that change management mindset and skill on top of the project management basics mindset and skill is critical, particularly, you know, certain types of organizations and perhaps smaller organizations, haven't got an army of, you know, people doing all the different disciplines, having that ability to know what good change looks like as well as good project management disciplines is critical. It's actually just over my shoulder there, our ABCDE, where that's got

Lisa Ali (15:46.981)
Hmm.

Mark Pratt (16:05.08)
elements of project management and change management in it as well as a framework. yeah, really, really interesting. Okay, so you mentioned the 20, 25 years that you've had in this game. You must have worked on some really interesting and impactful projects in that time. Why don't you share one or two of your favorites and why they felt so impactful and what you enjoyed most about them.

Lisa Ali (16:30.648)
So I would say definitely, always say it was my favourite project. It was for the Associated Press, a global organisation. It was a global programme. They are the largest news gatherer in the world. And it was completely bonkers, but I loved it. So, you you've got like a load of journalists running around. They're not really into like...

running programs, but you would always want them in your boat. If there was something going on outside, there was something had happened and they'd be out there and they'd run straight into this disaster or whatever it was. It was a massive program and I worked into the Associated Press with a small niche consultancy.

It was one that I actually questioned myself, was I the right person to do it? And when they interviewed me and they're like, yeah, absolutely, we want you. And I was kind like, why do want me? Why do want me? Because I'm sure there are people that are probably more senior or perhaps a little bit better qualified. And I knew as soon as I got in there, it was about the personalities. You're managing some really, really big personalities.

Mark Pratt (17:28.773)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (17:53.638)
But was a fantastic, it is a fantastic organisation. is, you know, it was an absolute highlight to complete major, major pieces of work.

which they had previously not been able to complete certain things. They always used to say, well, we just give up on projects. just, we don't finish them off, you know. So to work with a team to complete some major pieces of work and change the whole way in which they were operating was really special and some wonderful, wonderful people. So yeah, I think I was, and that was a lucky job.

to get. I wasn't going to go for it. I was like, nah. I was really, I was in a role. I was actually in a role and I got a random call from a random person saying, ooh, so so's recommend that we speak to you about this job. And I said, I'm ever so sorry. I'm in a contract. Put the phone down. He gave me this brief. And I went, the next day I rang Mac and I said, actually, can I? I was like, you know, I was doing some sort of like,

Mark Pratt (18:45.572)
Yep. Yep.

Lisa Ali (19:07.652)
BA work in Tower Hamlets and then there's this global programme and I'm like, I can't do it. So, yeah, it was, I was really glad that I went and did that job, fantastic job.

Mark Pratt (19:23.001)
Fabulous, fabulous. Yeah, I think I would absolutely resonate with what you've just said there. There's one or two projects that absolutely stand out for me in my career and fond memories, great team, great learnings. Are you able to share any more details in terms of the big lessons that you learn or the things that you've been able to then take with you and implement elsewhere, the learnings from that project and that programme?

Lisa Ali (19:49.51)
Yeah

For me, the biggest thing was the investment by the SRO. She was the senior vice president for that part of the organization. And she was totally committed to doing the work. I don't think I've ever come across that again since, that somebody who's so invested into...

Mark Pratt (20:03.341)
Okay.

Mark Pratt (20:14.018)
really interesting.

Lisa Ali (20:18.104)
the work happening and that was a massive, made a massive, massive difference to my ability to do my job. So that was...

very, very important and it's something I always look for. Is the SRO going to be invested in this or if not, how are we going to work with it and what do we need to do sort of thing? I think the other thing is it was that real understanding of when you're working with people that run out into war zones to report the news and put their bodies and lives on the line, you can't just go and go, can you just fill in this piece of paper?

to be flexible and at times I was doing things which I really shouldn't have been doing in the sense of my role but if it was helping moving something forward a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more to get to the end goal then do it. You know just have that flexibility, don't be too precious, just you know

Mark Pratt (21:02.903)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (21:30.682)
do what you need to do to get to where you need to go to.

Mark Pratt (21:35.491)
I think that's absolutely gold, Lisa. I would say that the trait that you've just described is the difference between, or one of the key differences between what I would consider to be the most successful people in this kind of type of work and not overstepping boundaries or taking control where it's not warranted, but understanding that above all deliver and do what needs to be done to get there.

So, you know, not having that sort of, it's not my job mentality, being flexible within the role, know, morph into the organisational standards and what the stakeholders need and require, like, you know, what you've just described. think that's absolutely critical. And I see that time and time again in the most successful people in our industry. So that's a real key takeaway for me from that.

part of the conversation and also what you mentioned at the start of that answer about this kind of sponsorship. You when I see two sponsors listed, that means no one is accountable. Or the sponsor that they can spare half an hour a month or something and then cancels that, that they're always danger signs about imminent project failure potentially.

Lisa Ali (22:32.112)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (22:45.944)
No one is doing it!

Mark Pratt (23:01.412)
or the project will happen in spite of the sponsorship, not because of it. Yeah, they're really interesting as well. So it does help when you've got either an organization or an individual with the autonomy to be 100 % behind what you're trying to achieve. I think that's key as well. Brilliant. Thanks for sharing that.

Lisa Ali (23:20.422)
And she actually went on and she's now the, I don't know if they call them CEO, but she is the top person there at that organization. It would be common knowledge, it's not sharing anything. So, she's that sort of person. Let's do it, let's get it done.

Mark Pratt (23:38.86)
Fabulous. Fabulous. Yeah, worth working with those sorts of people. Again, where the opportunity presents itself. So, again, with that benefit of hindsight and those years of experience, what sort of advice would you share with somebody wanting to get into this field today? What...

What nuggets of wisdom would you bestow upon anyone who asked you?

Lisa Ali (24:10.694)
In terms of running projects and programs or being an interim.

Mark Pratt (24:15.137)
Both.

Lisa Ali (24:17.24)
Okay, so in terms of projects and programs, I think it is about that flexibility and that tenacity and being quite relentless and building those relationships with people. know, people can, you know, they can block for many different reasons and we might never know exactly what that reason is, but you'll get blockers wherever you go and...

Mark Pratt (24:22.732)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (24:45.67)
So it's how you can move things forward working with those people or if you need to, going right around them. So you've got to think on your feet a bit and be willing to be flexible and relentless. think those are some of the things. As I say, it's not about can you fill in a raid log.

Mark Pratt (25:04.971)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (25:08.622)
You know, I went into my last role and was told, look, I've got plenty of people that can fill in raid logs, but I need somebody who's going to deliver, you know, do it, deliver. So I think those are important things, you know, and also keeping a piece of yourself. So it's very easy to.

Mark Pratt (25:08.96)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (25:15.231)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Ali (25:32.559)
It can be very easy to get very emotionally involved into something, but you, as an interim, you are not there in the longer term. It is not your business in that response to put all of your energy, all of your eggs into that basket.

Mark Pratt (25:43.389)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (25:51.758)
you're not going to have the same experience as a perm person. So it is about saying, I have to create that space for me and create my boundaries for me. Not, you know, I'm not an employee. have to create, I have to create, nobody will create those boundaries for me. I have to do it for myself.

Mark Pratt (26:06.805)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Pratt (26:12.789)
Yeah, I would say that's another absolutely humdinging piece of advice because, I think that by having that clear separation, you actually enhance your value to the client rather than diminishing it. You know, I think that having that kind of outsider's perspective, wanting to be invited back because you've done a great job, not because, you know, you need to be there, you have to be there. think that's totally invaluable. So, yeah, great. That's a great share.

Lisa Ali (26:43.386)
Yeah. And I think, you know, as an interim look in the local government world at the moment, you know, it's not particularly buoyant. I think you have to just remember that it might get tough at times.

And, you know, there is, even for me, I saw a role and I thought, that's quite interesting, you know. But it's not what I do. You know, I do, do, I do interim work. That's, that's what I do. I'm, I'm, don't, I shouldn't be looking at going as a perm into a consultancy just because things are a little bit, you know, they're not that buoyant. So I think that's.

Mark Pratt (27:13.3)
He he he he.

Mark Pratt (27:19.221)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Ali (27:31.96)
you know, get very clear on what you do do as an interim. That doesn't mean that you can't bring that flexibility as needed, but be very clear on what you do do and stick to it and look to make those connections. And that doesn't just have to be with individuals. I mean, I've got some great connections with some agencies that have like pretty much known me throughout. So I think you've got to build on those foundations as well.

Mark Pratt (27:54.794)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Pratt (28:00.98)
Yeah, absolutely. I think you're sharing some absolute caucus here, Lisa. We've got our Pulse community and we've got various different kind of training guides and articles around some of this stuff. And you're using different terminology to describe some exactly the same things that we think are really, important. So around that personal brand being known for something and not just being everything to everybody. think it's very tempting, particularly in a tougher market to kind of spread yourself

and can try and position yourself a lot of different things. I think that diminishes your value and your positioning. I often see people either on LinkedIn or applying for roles and they're a project manager slash business analyst slash team maker slash carpenter, know, and they're trying to cover all the bases and by trying to be everything, I think you become almost nothing because it's too hard for the person who's reading your profile or your CV to understand what it is that you specifically do.

perfect match and particularly in a lower demand market you know the people who are taking the roles really are the perfect matches not the more kind of looser generic matches so I think that's a real important one there as well and then the other thing that you mentioned around kind of the networking which is obviously something that kind of comes just very naturally to someone like yourself you know building that reputation being known as the person who delivers

whatever X is, maintaining those relationships whether you're in role or out of role, know, and not just, you know, come in surfacing when you need something but, you know, actively engaging with your network and nurturing that network is critical as well I think.

Lisa Ali (29:46.544)
here.

think LinkedIn is a great place to do that and you know I've just been dropping people messages and I've had some catch-up calls with people and like you know I saw you and I was looking at this and I thought that's great opportunity it's just doing all the

all these things, you know, I've got like as somebody looking for a role at the moment, I've got like, I've got a hit list, I've got a spreadsheet with about like 60 people on it and agencies and I just like, I'm not, you know, I'll drop them a message. Who haven't I spoken to in a while? And when you least expect it, that's when something will change, you know, but you have to create those opportunities as well.

Mark Pratt (30:24.818)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Pratt (30:33.811)
Yeah, I think that goes back to your earlier point around kind of luck. If you are putting in place those systems, even if it is just a 60 line spreadsheet or whatever and processes, I haven't spoken to Bob for a few months, I'll drop him a note, what have you, that's probably more than the majority do do. And that's probably something which has helped you succeed over that long, long, know, interim career in regular work. again, some really valuable stuff. Thank you very much for sharing.

So kind of looking forward then, how do you keep current? There's obviously a lot of changes in terms of technology and things like AI and changes in the marketplace, IR35, and obviously we've had major things like Brexit and COVID. There's always massive change going on in our industry. How do you keep kind of current? are your go-to sources for knowledge learning? And how much of your

time do you dedicate to kind of keeping on top of stuff and evolving to the changes.

Lisa Ali (31:40.782)
Yeah, well, it's easier right now because obviously I'm not in contract, so it's much easier to keep up to date with things. I think there are a lot of good resources on LinkedIn. So, you know, there's the Institute of the Institute of Interim Management group. So I go on there. I find information. I follow the guy.

Mark Pratt (31:46.728)
Sure.

Lisa Ali (32:07.684)
Dave, Dave, Dave, I can't think of his name. He does loads on IR 35. Thank you. Yeah. So I've always got, you know, like anything he writes, I'll take a look at his articles. There's also a tax company, WTT. They do a lot of really useful stuff.

Mark Pratt (32:11.441)
Dave Chaplin

Lisa Ali (32:31.814)
and then there's the contractor I can't think what they're anyway I'm signed up to their board as well so I think those are all really kind of like keeping up to date on the market and stuff like that.

Technology's a funny one, you know, I keep dabbling with AI and you know, I know like a robot's gonna be making my dinner in a couple of years time and all this sort of thing, you know, it's, and it's interesting, you know, like people who, like my sister is a lecturer and she's like, yeah, they all use AI to write their papers. I'm like, they do? You know, it's like.

Mark Pratt (33:14.897)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Ali (33:16.248)
Okay, okay, you know, and I said, how do you mark that then? How do you, you know, and she said, because it's, you know, you question them about what they've written. They have to be able to understand the theory of what they've written and the subject matter and what have you. Whereas I can't think, I don't know, it's bit lazy.

But I think, you know, given the fact that I virtually, you know, predominantly I work in local government, yeah, they're nowhere near that sort of level of tech, you know. And, you know, it's interesting, the work I was doing back in Newham when I first got the BA role, what they were doing back then, some people are are starting to do now.

Mark Pratt (33:48.743)
Yeah, yeah.

Mark Pratt (33:56.337)
He

Lisa Ali (34:03.072)
So, you know, you've got your authorities that are kind of like really up the curve and you've got some that haven't even hit the bottom of the curve. They're not anywhere near it, you know. So it's quite interesting and it always I think it always kind of fascinates me in like the simplest of terms.

How will you, if you're going to go and work for somebody, what technology do they have? What kit do they have? What do they do? How do they manage that? And Liverpool, my last contract, they were really, no, you don't need a kit, you just log in, you you've got your VDI, off you go, you've got your email. And I thought, my days.

That's a huge improvement compared to what, you know, a few years back. So I like the thing is I do like tech, but I'm not a techie. You know, I always say like I understand enough tech to get by, you know, but I'm kind of the bridge between tech and the business. So I kind of like, you know, like link it up.

Mark Pratt (34:57.415)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (35:10.13)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (35:20.061)
Yeah, yeah. It's funny isn't it. I remember back in the day starting a few contracts and yeah I wouldn't be issued with a laptop until day seven because they haven't got themselves together. So my first five or six days paying were just yeah, really, really, yeah, reading paper, yeah. They were the days, blimey. Yeah, I think it's really interesting actually. Probably, you know.

Lisa Ali (35:31.576)
Yeah, yeah they had got the kit. Yeah, reading paper.

Lisa Ali (35:42.957)
I know, I know.

Mark Pratt (35:46.621)
through some of what you've already mentioned with technology advances, some of those things that you sort of, I think it was a previous line manager or client described.

you know, anybody can do that, fill in a read log, whatever. I think they're the sorts of things that, you know, the coming technologies are going to be able to do much more easily. And so I'd really encourage everyone to, you know, think about, A, I need to get myself to a basic level of understanding of what these technologies are and can do, and really try and focus my capabilities, not on what the technology can do or will be able to do, but on the things that the technology is not yet able to go anywhere near, like the relationship.

management, the stakeholder management, those sorts of things. They are going to be the differentiators for people in our field I believe. So yeah if you're a very mechanical, know, kind of follow in the book type project manager I believe...

Lisa Ali (36:33.094)
Mm.

Mark Pratt (36:46.459)
My personal opinion that those sorts of skills will start to become replaced by technology in the coming years quite easily and that will obviously devalue your skill or make it harder for you to monetise that skill in whatever way. Whereas you know, come and look at some of the skills that are more subjective, artistic.

Lisa Ali (36:53.882)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (37:07.377)
relationship psychological type skills in this field will probably stand you in good stead obviously until the technology improves so it could do that as well but yeah that's where I would be focusing my energy right now. So okay let's move on then next so what you mentioned dial 35

Lisa Ali (37:10.918)
You

Lisa Ali (37:17.294)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark Pratt (37:30.843)
just before and obviously you've had the benefit of working in both the public and private sector across your career. How has your journey with IR35 evolved? some of the rule changes came in a little bit earlier on the public sector and also how do you see IR35 semi-governing that gig economy type situation? How do you see that evolving in the coming years? Do you think there'll be more

of interim work, however so it's regulated or do you see that companies will wish to take on more kind of permanent stuff? How do you see that evolving and what's your experience been to date?

Lisa Ali (38:13.136)
think that's a really great question. I have worked, I've not worked inside, I've only worked outside. I think that...

Mark Pratt (38:19.516)
Hehe.

Lisa Ali (38:23.434)
not that I'm hugely opposed to working inside, but I think what's happened is that there's been this almost like the same rates being offered for inside as for outside and I'm not prepared to devalue myself. Now, you know, and years ago sometimes you'd see a job and it would be a very, very low day rate and you just think...

Mark Pratt (38:35.16)
Is it? it?

Thank you.

Lisa Ali (38:45.614)
I'm not even going to apply for that. And the people that do are either not as experienced or they're getting a bit desperate and they're devaluing the market. And I think that's a little bit what's happened with some of the inside rates. They're not equivalent to the outside rates. So in some ways, I think that's pushing down slightly the outside rates.

Mark Pratt (39:03.107)
Sure.

Lisa Ali (39:13.158)
However, I think that with the NI increases, will more companies, authorities want to employ people or use more contractors is a good question. How will that impact things going forward? I guess...

I hope that it means that they'll start thinking, well, we could use more interims here. I think in local government, particularly, there's been this drive to maybe set up program offices, PMOs, and bring in program managers and project managers and BAs. But then...

I don't think then they get the experience right. So they have quite junior level people or people that have come from a service industry and are good within the service industry, but are not good at managing the program or the project. So.

Mark Pratt (40:19.001)
Yeah, think you, sorry, Lucy, I think you touched on two really interesting points there. The first one that you mentioned around the budgetary changes, the NI lift from 13.8 % employers, national insurance to 15%. Somebody in the Inside IR35 chain is paying that bill.

probably the contractor ultimately, even though that's not supposed to happen, but that is basically whose pocket it would ultimately come out of, however so you're positioned, but that's ultimately where it be hit. And I think as well with the also the proposals and employment law changes, which will make it more employment rights. do think that companies will start to think, this right for a permanent employee member of staff inside out?

FTC, whatever it is with the increased risks and costs that perhaps they may perceive from that versus do I want an outcome and do I want to pay for an outcome? Do I want to bring somebody in who can achieve an outcome for me and then clear off and onto the next thing? And I do think the balance might shift there, right? The other thing I believe and slash hope, but I do believe it is that in all markets see cycles, right?

and you know there's peaks and there's troughs and right now we're in a period of probably slightly

Lisa Ali (41:39.163)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (41:45.305)
depressed demand. However, when the tide changes, as it always does in these things, and the landscape becomes a lot more competitive for people to bring in great skills, I do think that will push people to also look to interim engagements, outside out of 35 engagements, to gain advantage over those companies that have perhaps decided we're not going to engage personal service companies, that's not within our

gap a tight for whatever reason. So I do think there's advantage there for companies who are looking to get that edge on perhaps the larger competitors. So I think it's going to be a really interesting time. yeah, great points.

Lisa Ali (42:26.394)
Yeah. And I think also for people like me, there are opportunities to work with companies as an associate. So therefore you're going to be outside, but you might be going into, you know, consultancy or whatever. So, you know, and that's that's something I always keep my eyes open at four and, you know, I've got, I've got.

Mark Pratt (42:35.789)
Yes.

Lisa Ali (42:51.366)
some contacts and a couple of different people and I've done that work before where I've worked for that consultancy as an associate. But I think it's a really interesting time. I know I talk about a lot about local government that has been where most of my work is. So many of them are on the verge of...

issue in the section 113, is it? 113, you know, like the bankruptcy notice and you know, there's a lot of reservation. They're very risk adverse. And I think in those scenarios, that's the best time to have an interim, you know.

Mark Pratt (43:25.175)
Yep.

Lisa Ali (43:46.854)
because you haven't got that risk tied to, well, you know, we've got another employee, what happens if we're then going through like restructures or we've got to cut roles or, you know, I think it's a good option.

Mark Pratt (44:03.905)
Yeah exactly and I think as well it's that age-old kind of cost versus value debate you know if you do have to pay a know x percentage more for an interim because of the risk that's you know carried in working in that way and but if that person is able to bring that experience to bear and deliver on time you know.

really massively impacts the value and the benefits case of the project if it's on time versus if it's going over time because it's not being managed as well it might. yeah let's see how it evolves and hopefully it does move back in that direction. I'm sure listeners of this podcast will be delighted to see it do so as well.

Lisa Ali (44:45.178)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (44:49.892)
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.

Mark Pratt (44:52.575)
So another thing I wanted to touch on, Lisa FMA, is leadership. Obviously, in the different roles that you'll have had, you'll have actually had people directly reporting to you, so to speak. And you'll also have had to lead through influence, which is a lot of what project management is. Not everyone who you manage on a project reports to you, and influence and stakeholder management becomes absolutely critical.

Lisa Ali (45:12.484)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Pratt (45:18.864)
Tell us about your leadership style and how you influence others to deliver the project.

Lisa Ali (45:27.374)
So I'll be really honest, I don't like having people work for me. I don't like managing people. I have done it and I do do it. And you know, actually in terms of IR35, if you're managing people, then you shouldn't be outside IR35. So, so.

Mark Pratt (45:33.47)
Okay. Okay.

Mark Pratt (45:39.124)
Ha ha.

Mark Pratt (45:47.999)
Indeed,

Lisa Ali (45:53.638)
You know, I think it all depends on who the individual is, whether you can have that relationship with them and help to move them along, teach them and support them. I think I would say my probably my strongest skills in terms of influence is my stakeholder engagement and communication. It is my ability to get people on the side and get them moving forward.

Mark Pratt (46:14.368)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (46:22.968)
that influencing people. I think I'm not afraid to be open if I don't know and I don't understand I'll say I don't understand what you're talking about. You'll have to explain that to me. You know I think that it is about listening to people

Mark Pratt (46:30.998)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Pratt (46:35.69)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lisa Ali (46:45.776)
A lot of times you go into projects and people don't feel they've been listened to. They feel that they're out of the loop.

You know, that happened in one of the last pieces of work I was doing, one team, they just felt like nobody's actually bothered to listen to us. They don't understand what our concerns are. So I think there has to be that big piece of actually listening to people before you do anything. can't influence anybody if they feel that they've not been heard. So I think that's a really key.

Mark Pratt (47:01.664)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (47:17.778)
key thing is to just actually listen. Now it might then be that you think, well, they're talking toffee, you know, but it's important that they feel that at least you've taken on board, at least then you can say, look, okay, this is what you've told me, I've heard what you've said, however, in terms of this project, I'm not sure I'll be able to do anything about that, however, in terms of this project,

Mark Pratt (47:43.573)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (47:46.758)
I'm going to do X and Y and Z on your behalf. But you know, so I think I've been told, as I say, I'm quite honest, I'm brutally honest. I'll tell it like it is, you know, if I'm...

Mark Pratt (47:51.86)
Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa Ali (48:07.526)
I'm quite quick. I call it my witch's twitch. It's that gut instinct. This isn't happening. This is not going well. I'm not saying that I just go off and go, I don't think it's going to work. But I'm quite quick on top of things if they're going to be a risk or an issue. And I'm very honest about that. And I'll be very honest.

Mark Pratt (48:27.232)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Lisa Ali (48:32.61)
if I think somebody is not engaging or is blocking or is, I'll say it, I'll call it as it is. You know, I won't, we're not there to make friends, you know, we're there to get a job done. It's nice if you can make friends and work with people and stay in touch with people and inevitably I do. But...

Mark Pratt (48:48.779)
Yeah.

Lisa Ali (48:57.69)
But you have to, if somebody is deliberately blocking things and whatever you've tried, you can't influence that, then you have to say.

Mark Pratt (49:04.938)
Definitely.

I think some of the traits that you've shared today, Lisa, are definitely the common traits that I see in the most successful interims project professionals for sure, many of the characteristics you've shared. I'd really encourage anyone who's really wanting to get on in the career to listen carefully back to some of the things that Lisa and I have discussed here, because these are some of the key traits that separate the highest performers from the masses, so to speak.

So coming on to my final question, is about learning and obviously through the course of our careers you learn a lot. I'm someone who very much believes every day is a school day and there's always something new to learn. what are the strings that you'd still like to add to your bow? What are the things that you feel that you could improve on that would help you move forward?

Lisa Ali (49:37.808)
Thank you.

Lisa Ali (49:41.958)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (50:05.784)
challenges, skills, things that you've never quite got to grasp of and so on. Where do you feel the next learning opportunities are for you?

Lisa Ali (50:20.902)
not good at it, but I think I'd like to have the formal qualification in change. I think I'd like to do something formally in change. Because sometimes it's about understanding, you might do it in the practice, but it's understanding the theory behind the practice. know, so I think I do a lot of things quite naturally. They're quite inherent to me. But I'd like some of that theory around change management. Because I think...

Mark Pratt (50:27.595)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (50:35.988)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Ali (50:49.752)
To me, that's the really fascinating bit. It's the people bit of it. I think that you also can learn an awful lot on the job. When you think, I thought I knew a lot about that, then there's still stuff that you learn on the job.

Mark Pratt (50:55.53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Pratt (51:04.15)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Ali (51:12.23)
I'm kind of not adverse so there's something I think that my CV is out for. like, yeah, don't know anything about that. Just start Googling it. know, yeah, that's that. I do kind of know a bit about that. So, but I think the change thing I'd enjoy to do something on a change course, yeah.

Mark Pratt (51:32.244)
Fantastic. I'm sure there's lots out there and anyone listening and wants to Lisa any recommendations of anything they found really useful, please drop us a line and we'll share on with Lisa. Lisa, that brings us to the end of the podcast. guess there's always one question I to ask people, which is, is there anything that I've not asked you today that you think people would benefit from hearing or is there anything you'd like to ask me?

Lisa Ali (52:01.104)
I didn't know about asking you. I was gonna talk about me again.

Mark Pratt (52:04.155)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Go for it.

Lisa Ali (52:11.812)
say to people is, know, and I think this, and I kind of touched on this before, don't be afraid to say I don't know. You know, none of us know everything, but so long as we know the right place to look and find the answer, that's the important thing. You know, I think we have to have that honesty.

and that ability to say, I'm not perfect. I don't know it all. can't get it. I might not get it all right. I might get it wrong sometimes. But it's the overall. You've got to have your eye on the overall goal.

Mark Pratt (52:59.549)
Perfect. What a great way to wrap it up. Lisa, thank you so much for your time. I hope you've enjoyed your Pulse podcast experience. I certainly enjoyed speaking with you and I'm sure the listeners will find a lot of what we discussed valuable. So thank you for taking the time to share those insights with us.

Lisa Ali (53:21.68)
Thank very much, I've really enjoyed it, it's always good to chew the fat.

Mark Pratt (53:25.945)
Indeed, indeed. Thanks very much Lisa. Thank you.

Lisa Ali (53:29.328)
Thank you.