The Art of Failure: Lessons They Don’t Teach You

"Keep your hand on the pulse" - Amit Shah

In this episode of the Pulse Podcast, Amit shares his career journey from consulting to his current role at HSBC, emphasising the importance of specialisation in regulatory compliance and project management. He discusses unique selling points that set professionals apart in the consulting field, the value of mentorship, and practical advice for early-career individuals. Amit also highlights the significance of continuous professional development, effective networking, and learning from mistakes. He concludes with insights on engaging with new technologies, including AI, and their impact on project management. In this conversation, Amit discusses the transformative impact of AI on project management, emphasising its potential to enhance efficiency and support specialised roles. He shares insights on the evolving gig economy, the importance of servant leadership, and the necessity of maintaining work-life balance. Amit also highlights the significance of continuous learning and adapting to new technologies in a rapidly changing landscape.

Key Takeaways
✨  Amit's career began in consulting with a big four firm.
✨ Specialisation in regulatory compliance is crucial for career longevity.
✨ Building relationships is a key unique selling point.
✨ Mentorship can provide valuable perspectives and growth opportunities.
✨ Early career professionals should define their career direction.
✨ Continuous professional development is essential in a fast-changing environment.
✨ Networking should be maintained even when secure in a role.
✨ Learning from mistakes is vital for professional growth.
✨ Engaging with new technologies can enhance project delivery.
✨ AI tools are becoming increasingly relevant in project management. AI can significantly reduce administrative burdens for specialized roles.
✨ The gig economy's evolution will depend on industry-specific factors.
✨ Servant leadership fosters trust and credibility among teams.
✨ Work-life balance is essential for long-term career sustainability.
✨ Continuous learning is vital in adapting to technological advancements.
✨ AI tools can help summarise vast amounts of information quickly.
✨ Effective communication is key to successful leadership.
✨ Career growth is non-linear and should be approached with flexibility.

-
-
-
Think you might benefit from the BEST and BIGGEST Contractor community? We know you will. 😎 You can join us here: https://bit.ly/4jC5e24 🔥

Thanks for tuning into The Pulse Podcast. Remember, we're always looking for new voices and perspectives to enrich our discussions. Think you've got something to share? Fill out our guest application form here.

Catch new episodes every Tuesday. Subscribe to stay updated. 🔔

Until next time,
Mark and the team!

Transcript

Mark Pratt (00:01.762)
Amit Shah, welcome to the Pulse Podcast. How are you?

Amit (00:05.406)
I'm very well, thank you, Mark. And thank you very much for having me here. How are you?

Mark Pratt (00:08.462)
Yeah, I I'm very well, thank you for asking. Yeah, little wet on the day we're recording here. We had a little bit of localised flooding, a few cars stuck in roads, making them impassable. We truck on anyway, so yes, thank you for asking. So, Amit, what I think our listeners will be really interested to hear is kind of how your career has developed. We're gonna have a broad range of listenership here, people who were earlier on in the career, people who are further on in the career.

And what I'd love to do as part of this podcast is kind share experience and hope others can benefit from us. So, not many people, kind of when they left school, probably hoped to get into this sort of profession. It was probably a little bit of an afterthought. Maybe you'll tell me your situation's different. But why don't you tell me why you kind of got into doing what you do and tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Amit (01:02.868)
No, absolutely. So I'll walk you through my kind of career trajectory to date. So finished up university many, many years ago, then went for my first got my first role within consulting the big four.

That was fantastic, I really enjoyed it. Cut my teeth in different industries, project delivery, program delivery. Came across different stakeholders, different types of individuals, different teams. So really kind of cut my teeth there and that was great. Really kind of strong career, kind of a learning path that way as well. And then from there, spent a couple of years after that, left there, spent a couple of years doing contracting work because while the time, especially those were the good times without the IR35 that we have now. So pay rates were, day rates were good, the pay was good. So Matt capitalized on

that and then from there went again into consulting so financial services consulting primarily and delivered a number of you know worked with the usual European US banks delivered a number of programs there that was great and then went stayed within consulting for a number of years and then joined HSBC which is where I'm at the moment and then wrapping up there in the next couple of weeks so and it's been great so in terms of you know having that consulting experience in the background the contracting experience in the background and then industry experience as well so a mix of both

Mark Pratt (02:13.281)
Perfect. And share with us your specialism. I'm sure a lot of people will be coming at this sort of career from all different angles. So how, obviously you started there with a big four firm, so that's kind of a nice, I suppose, straightforward entry into kind of consulting in one shape or form. But yeah, what's your particular niche specialism, would you say? yeah, how are you kind of presenting yourself to the market right now?

Amit (02:39.786)
Yeah, absolutely. So my specialism is not only program management and project management, but focused very much on regulatory compliance and regulatory technology delivery.

as you can imagine like over time in memorial and also going forward regulations will constantly evolve will constantly adapt organizations have to comply with those organizations have to understand those so it's one of those areas where there will always be a need for individuals with that specialism and then we couple that with project delivery with the consulting kind of mindset with that design-led mindset as well it's a really good space to be in and that's that's my specialism

Mark Pratt (03:14.475)
Okay, awesome. So tell us about kind of your, guess, most impactful or favorite project that you've worked on. What made it so special? Why did you enjoy it so much?

Amit (03:25.212)
Yeah, I'll say there's been more than one project like that. It's been working for a number of years. So I'll give you a more recent example. One was a recent example with

So this involved working with a number of different stakeholders. And you can imagine, especially in the risk space, risk and compliance space, you're working with a variety of different individuals, different drives, different motivations, different personalities, and actually bringing them together and actually driving all of them and making them collaborate in a way that they are all of them work and move in the same direction for the same key objectives, the kind of KPIs and seeing them and taking them on that journey. And then after 12 months, show them the results

showing them the reporting, the MI in the back of that, saying, look, this is where we started. This was the project plan when we started doing the design framework and all that stuff. And then when we're transitioning into BAU after 12 months, look at what we've achieved. We went through a number of different challenges, but working together and working collaboratively.

this is where we are now and seeing that transformation and seeing that journey and actually doing the retrospectives with them as well and taking doing the lessons learnt that was that has been one of the key points in my career that I think with each project if I can show to my stakeholders and to the business sponsors the the accountable execs that look this is the value I've delivered or the team has delivered I go to sleep very happy at night

Mark Pratt (04:52.127)
Okay, awesome.

I think one of the things I'm super keen to encourage people to try and do is to put themselves in a category of one. So there's lots of program managers, project managers, and then even when you go down into a specialism like self-regulatory or any other sort of specialism with any industry or kind of sub-industry, lots of people do this for a job. Obviously when you're entering the field of kind of contracting, it's really important, I think,

Amit (04:54.166)
Thank you.

Mark Pratt (05:23.544)
to kind of have a unique selling point, something that everybody remembers you buy. What would you say your secret source is or your unique selling point, what gives you your category of one? Have you got one? I suppose is the first question as well.

Amit (05:37.686)
I would say I probably have more than one in terms of my USPs and I think to narrow it down to just to one would probably be I would see that as being little bit naive because you as you mentioned there are thousands of contractors with project management experience, program delivery experience so to differentiate yourself

you'll probably need to more than one USP. would say two or three USPs would put you in good stead that way. So my key ones would be relationship building, understanding your audience. So understand what your key audience, who they are. So do the RACI, understand who your sponsors are, understand who the accountable executives are, start building that relationship with them and with those individuals. And you'll notice once you start building it with them, their teams, they'll start warming up to you as well. They'll start wanting to know who you are. What do you bring to the table?

and why have you built, you why does this person or this team of individuals trust you with this problem, with this issue that they're facing? So that's probably a critical one.

And then another USP for me as well is the art of collaboration, bringing different perspectives together, different individuals, different drivers together and taking them on that journey and actually driving them in the same direction and showing them that this is what the end result could look like. So using dummy data or using whatever tools are necessary and then showing them that look, the MI or the reporting would look like this. This is the end result. And then delivering on that promise as well. So those two are probably my unique selling points right there.

Mark Pratt (07:09.235)
Okay sure and obviously you know those are a great

selling points, those attributes. Is there a particular, so for example, your headline on LinkedIn or what you would want people to say about you when you weren't in the room? is the guy who, have you got like a particular, Amit's the guy who, X, have you got kind of a little bit of like an elevator pitch or a positioning statement that kind of would be a memorable, a memory peg for yourself?

Amit (07:42.947)
Absolutely. So my elevator pitch is more...

If I was in the room, I would hope that people would actually remember me as, I mean, as an individual who not only brings in the expertise, the consulting and the industry expertise, but then he also delivers on his promises. He not only makes promises that he, you know, he doesn't make empty promises. What he says he will do. So here's exactly what it says on the tin. If he's going to tell you that I'm going to deliver this, deliver this, I'm going to deliver this program or project in 12 months, 18 months with these KPIs and these objectives achieved, then that is what he will aim to

Mark Pratt (07:57.471)
Yeah.

Amit (08:16.53)
to do and if he doesn't do that there must be a very strong rationale reason behind that. So that is my elevator pitch.

Mark Pratt (08:26.64)
Unique selling point, okay perfect thanks that's really useful. Okay let's move on a little bit then to kind of mentorship and growth and so we'll come at this from two angles. Let's start with kind of...

formal or informal mentoring that you've enjoyed across your career. So we all need people to kind of show us the way and who we've learned from along our way. Who would you like to, naming names or not, who would you like to kind of call out as like your key mentors along the way? What did you learn from them?

Amit (09:04.274)
Yeah, so I've had a few mentors in my time and also I like to kind of keep that progression going as well. What I try and do is that and the tip I can give to anyone is that...

the one thing I learned was I reached out to an individual who was my boss's boss's boss. So you know, I went a few, went up a few rungs. And then he did say that, look, you know, he was really flattered by that. But he did say that, look, because we work at the same transformation team, it's pretty best if you go to another department or a function or a line of business and actually speak, get a mentor from that area, get a different perspective, which made sense. I didn't look at it that angle. And then that's what actually that's exactly what I did. So I went to one of the heads, global heads of channels and

Mark Pratt (09:37.436)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amit (09:45.74)
I reached out to him on LinkedIn and I just asked him look we've never met before but I really like your background your experience I think I can learn a lot from you Can you would you mind being a mentor? You know just maybe half an hour in a month would really kind of I would really appreciate that and he was actually really flattered by that

And that's where we kind of started up that mentor relationship, the mentoring. And I learned so much on the back of that. And that's what I've done over the years as well in terms of reach out to individuals who I wouldn't generally either work with or connect with or have anything to do with, even if they are in the same organization. But having a different perspective just really opens your mind. And I think you touched on the point of that growth mindset as well in terms of the more perspectives, the more angles that you the more conversations you have with different individuals.

the more broadens your perspective, more broadens your mind as well. And that's what I look for when it comes to mentoring, when it comes to me being mentored and vice versa. When I mentor other individuals, I try and take on that hat as well in terms of how can I improve their lives? How can I improve their professional personal lives? What value am I adding to them?

Mark Pratt (10:37.415)
Yep.

Mark Pratt (10:53.885)
Yeah, I think you're sharing some gold right there. think what's really interesting about what you've just said, if I think a bit from, you know, sat in my own seat and how I react to kind of different approaches that people would make to me, I generally get two flavors of approach. One is kind of, you know,

I'm available for work, what have you got for me? Okay, which, know, lots of people in that situation, it's difficult to kind of help everybody. But it's almost irresistible, it's kind of human nature. If somebody reaches out to you for us for help, could you mentor me? What knowledge could you share? I like what you do, a bit of flattery takes you a long way. So that's a real piece of gold nugget right there, reaching out to people, saying what it is that you respect and love about how they present themselves or the work that they've accomplished or whatever it might be.

and then ask for that help. Think of it from your own shoes, that's kind of irresistible, that sort of thing. So that's a real top tip there, thank you for sharing. And then let's focus then on that other way round there, where you are.

you are the mentee, I beg your pardon, well, you are the mentor to a mentee. And what sort of, what advice would you give someone who's perhaps earlier on in their career, from whatever form or format, so level of role or perhaps thinking about making the transition from being permanently employed to a contractor or even going back the other way, what sort of advice would you share with a potential mentee?

Amit (12:23.281)
Sure, sir.

especially if they are early on in the career, the technique and also the messages would have to be quite unique to that. I would, when I'm mentoring, I like to have my very specific program. I, in the past, what I've done is I've actually mentored on a monthly basis. if I have mentored, then I would say, let's set up a time, let's say half an hour or an hour once a month. And this is the program. So I would actually have a very structured program and I would share that with the individuals as well. So then this is the, let's say this is the six month mentorship.

we'll cover off before each session, I would like you to actually have a think about each of these areas and bring something to the table. So at least that way it becomes like a two-way dialogue as well. So the individuals actually had some time to think about what we're going to be talking about, what we're going to be exploring, what subject, what area, and then we can have conversation around that as well. But for someone early on in the career, I would actually say elements such as understand where you want to take your career, what direction you would take it in, what area do you want to specialize in, or if you want to be a generalist, fine.

If you're to be a specialist, fine, but have a real think about which direction you want to go in. Is there an industry that you want to focus in on? Is there a specific, let's say technology that you want to focus in on? So really have a think about that because the older you become, the more experienced you become. Having those kinds of skillset, it does work in your favor. So you don't want to have 20 years of experience and then have this really broad experience where you kind of worked on 25 different technologies. so having a little bit of a specialist would really help.

And also, think about what you mentioned earlier, your USPs. Start thinking about that early on. Your personal brand, start thinking about that early on. Because the earlier you can start building on that, even if you're starting your career, it's just gonna help you progress that and actually develop that as you get older and more wise and more experienced as well.

Amit (14:11.582)
So and then you can just start building on that as well So stop let's you start building out your LinkedIn network when you're early on in your career And then once let's say you've got 10 15 20 years experience. You can actually see your networks has really blown up You've actually built that network. You've built those relations there as well and keep those relations warm So don't just build out the network and then you know, just don't don't reach out to them. Just ghost them for the next 10 years

Even if it means sending a birthday message, know, LinkedIn's great that way. It actually tells you when someone's changed jobs, they have their birthday or something big has happened in their life. Just ping them a little note. It takes you a few seconds. That way you're keeping that relationship warm as well. And then they actually, people remember the, you know, like you've actually remembered. And this is technology making your life easier as well and leverage that technology. So elements like these is what I would give tips to.

someone who's actually just started off in the career and also making sure that from a growth mentality perspective as well, keep that at the back of your mind. You know, it's very easy to get into that fixed mindset, but constantly develop, constantly think to yourself, how can I that the career kind of, how can I do the CPD as well in terms of career progression, career development and that mental development as well. So think about short courses or what your organization offers you or something you can do privately yourself. So constantly evolve.

think about what the marketplace is, how it's evolving, how are you adapting to that as well? So don't get stagnant, don't kind of just stay in one place for the next 10, 15 years and think, okay, this is it, this is what I'm gonna do. keep your, and sorry, sorry about the pun, but keep your hand, make sure you have your hand on the pulse, or you're kind of on the pulse that way. And that's what I would actually.

explain and explore with potential mentees.

Mark Pratt (16:02.534)
It's a great name for a podcast, that pulse. It's so much used. I think, coming back to again, a couple of gold nuggets there from what you've just said. I think on the networking side, I think we've got data and proof and evidence that many, many times you're way more likely to land your next role permanently or contract with someone who knows you and who knows who's a lot closer to the work that you've done.

built up a level of trust than cold from a job board or something like that. investing in your network and the people around you is absolutely paramount if you want to kind of progress and succeed being regular, constant work. That's kind of critical. And I think the mistake that I see many people making is when they land their next role and they're secure for the next, whatever.

either permanent or six, 12 months, whatever, even in a permanent role. How permanent is a permanent role these days? People move around reasonably frequently compared to the past. Having that network that you stay engaged with throughout your secure period rather than just when you need them is really critical. We covered that in a previous podcast. Your network is for life, not just for Christmas, AKA when you need something.

Amit (17:32.406)
Absolutely, And even give you an example on that front as well. of the moment, I'm actually

Mark Pratt (17:33.184)
Yeah, yeah.

Amit (17:38.78)
I've put some time in the diary with an individual that I actually delivered a program for in Scotland. This is pretty going back about 14 years ago. And I haven't seen her since, but we still keep in touch. And I'm actually reaching out to her again, just saying, how's things going? How are things? just, you're right, keep that network. Just keep it warm. You don't have to see everyone on a monthly basis or just, but just keeping it warm goes a long way.

Mark Pratt (17:49.859)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (18:04.141)
I would encourage people to ask themselves the following question. Who are the 10 people who I could reach out to today who if they had the right budgetary and circumstances would hire me straight away no questions asked. And if you can't write down that list of 10 you basically need to work towards being able to write down that list of 10 I would say. That is kind of the key thing that's going to keep you off the bench and there's only so much daytime

any of us could endure so that's a key point. Okay brilliant so and coming back to the mistakes bit so you know none of us are perfect share some of the mistakes that you've perhaps made along the way I mean now with the benefit of hindsight and excellent career that you made that you've kind of learned from or would you would share with others so kindly to help them potentially avoid them.

Amit (19:01.787)
Yeah absolutely, so I think one mistake that really sticks in my head was...

This is many, many years ago, I when I started out, just a couple years after I started out, there was an individual came in from the US. so I'm very kind of, I can speak to anyone in any way, I can go into an event and actually just start a conversation with anyone. So I reached out to this individual, said, look, you're not familiar with London or you're not familiar with the area. If you want, I can take you out for lunch and kind of show you the sights and sounds of the local area near the office. And so she was like, yeah, fantastic.

Like it'd be great to kind of see it from one of the locals perspectives And so we went out for lunch and then I was expecting it to be you know Just an hour lunch and then we just ended up having conversation and I thought okay This is kind of taking on more time than I expected it to and I was supposed to be in another meeting post lunch anyway, and Then I came back and then I thought this person's really senior anyway, so I thought I'll be covered by you know, like having

kind of lunch with this individual enough But then I came back and I was literally shouted at by another team member saying that you know You were supposed to be in this meeting you weren't there You're supposed to be taking the notes for that meeting I had to take the notes myself and you know like make sure this never happens again and even though I explained that look this this MD MD level individual I was having lunch with and making sure that the we're building that relation with our other regions and even though that didn't land very well, know, it's just so the

The lesson learned from that mistake was that when you have a meeting in your diary, make sure you attend that meeting. Just don't miss that meeting unless there's an absolute emergency.

Amit (20:48.502)
You know, so just make sure, make your excuses, not excuses, give you reasons that, know, even if you're out for lunch, say, look, I need to be back for this time. I have a meeting I cannot miss. I cannot reschedule it. And that way it not only shows professionalism, but also shows that, you you're committed to your, to the organization, you committed to that team, you committed to that delivery. So there's wider impacts there as well. And this you learn as you get older, you can become more experienced as well.

So, and to give you similar in the similar kind of thread as well. Recently, I had an interview at another bank just recently. And it was the second stage where

I joined the Zoom call and then I'm waiting, waiting, waiting and then five minutes into call, I'm actually emailing the recruiter, the individual that set up the meeting, the set up the interview. So it's five minutes into the half an hour interview, I've logged in, but no one's appeared here. So just flagging it up for your awareness. And then 15 minutes into the interview, thought, hold on, okay, 50 % of the interview's gone, no one's turned up. So now I'm like, okay, can we please reschedule this because it's a little bit unfair, especially for me.

It's half an hour interview and the person hasn't turned up yet. And then they were apologetic, you know, just saying that look, something urgent came up, which from my perspective, it's unprofessional because hold on, you've set this meeting up, you've set this interview up and I can understand things change all the time, but reschedule it before, you know, you kind of the meeting or the interview starts. It's just common courtesy that way. And that was rescheduled. So yeah, just.

Mark Pratt (22:21.728)
Yeah, 100%.

Amit (22:25.876)
Meeting management is one of the key things. It sounds simple, but it has wider implications if it's not done correctly.

Mark Pratt (22:34.391)
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. think in this game, know, personal brand again is something we're very, very keen advocates of helping people develop and part of your personal brand is kind of your reputation and trust is something that takes a long time to potentially build and is quite easily broken. yeah, you know, always be mindful of how your actions may be perceived by others. yeah, it's a bit of basic courtesy. It could be something that's

the difference between achieving something that you want to achieve and not, so you're absolutely critical. Okay then, so you mentioned continuous professional development a little earlier. You know, obviously you've...

got a lot of projects under your belt through your career and you've done a lot of different things. Tell us how you keep on top and keep developing and keep fresh with all the changes that are going on. feels perhaps like change is faster than ever these days. Tell us practically how you engage with new learnings, new technologies, new skills and how you take those on board and bring them to your work.

Amit (23:45.974)
Absolutely. So with CPD, what I do is a continual continuous and professional development. I use different different variety of techniques. One is leveraging technology. So understanding what new technologies are there in the marketplace and every day, every week, you we see a new technology or a new player or something new coming in the pipeline. And then I assess, OK, is this going to be relevant for myself in my day job or in the next year, two years? So you can't physically know individual can physically.

learn every single technology that comes out all the time. It's just, it's just be impossible and too draining. So you make a judgment call, you know, I make a judgment call on that front. So if it's for myself, you know, if it's a new process management tool, then I would review, okay, which organizations are actually using this at the moment? And it does it have legs? Is it going to be one of the big players in the in future? Okay, if it is, I will invest my time and energy into learning that process management technique or that tool. Project management again, as well, agile, for example,

and then scaled agile, so you know, we've got that, we've got lean methodologies, so all these have been around for a number of years now, but again, it's really understanding, okay, is your understanding of that, is your delivery of that, is your knowledge of that fresh? So I would review what current thinking is on that front, so I'll do some research online, see, okay, my understanding is this, this, this, if there are any gaps, do I need to go on a specific course, either an online course or a classroom-based course? Do I need to speak to my colleagues as well? And really kind of refreshing that.

Another technique I'll also use is leveraging my teams and my network as well. Having those ongoing conversations with them. Having those water cooler moments. What's happening in the marketplace? What new developments are happening? What new trends? Is there anything I need to be aware of? Keeping your hand and your feet on the ground. This could be the next big thing. Maybe I need to invest some time into understanding.

Understand and learn about that I could be one of the first movers and first individuals to actually know that then I could put that on my on my public profile on my CV part of my personal brand saying that look I'm one of the first you know, five percent actually know this this new methodology and That again plays into your strength and strengthens your personal brand as well. So that's how so variety of different techniques, you know, you've got the online Research you got your network your teams which will give you actual that data

Amit (26:15.064)
and understanding of what is what CPD is at the moment relevant or what could be relevant in the near future as well as understanding not only from journals and articles as well so you know like I for example would read Harvard Business Review on let's say a weekly or monthly basis just see what's going on in marketplace that way and then other journals or other sources other business reference artifacts as well so would leverage it that way so not only am I relying on what my team my teams are saying

or what my network's saying, but also going deeper as well in terms of, what's the industry, industry-wide, what are they saying, what's happening in the marketplace? So really kind of honing in that way.

Mark Pratt (26:57.012)
Great. Okay. And I think obviously one of the hot topics that everyone's talking about and you know, is progressing at almost like a daily rate is obviously the artificial intelligence and how that's impacting everybody's day-to-day work in life. Could you share first of all how or if you've had the opportunity to work with any kind of AI based tools as part of your role and how you've applied them? And then we'll come on to

after that we'll come on to how you think things are going to change for people in this profession in the future. So yeah, do want to share with us how and if you've applied any AI tools on a day-to-day basis or had the opportunity to do so in the working environment?

Amit (27:41.234)
Absolutely, absolutely. So, I've actually had the privilege of actually an opportunity to work with AI for the last couple of years as well. And one of the programs I actually worked on, worked with AI was in a very specialized area within RISC where...

small team within the bank and know they're about, might not sound small but the size of HSBC, HSBC is a gigantic organization and you have 300 people in this one team, very specialized, very bright individuals and we leveraged AI to actually help them in the day job in terms of when they were reviewing specific models, specific artifacts, it took up a lot of the time and then we thought okay how can AI actually leverage all that information, condense it and using large language models, large language

Mark Pratt (28:05.791)
Mm-hmm.

Amit (28:26.568)
language models, know, the LLMs, we could actually create those, put all the information in there, and it would save so much time for these very highly specialized and highly trained individuals for them to focus the energy on other value-add activities rather than reviewing the administrative tasks over here. And that worked out really well. The pilot on that went fantastically. We saved so much time for these individuals. So that landed really well at the end. Another example as well was, or another project I worked on,

was when you have regulators and standards set across the world, you can imagine you have a number of, especially for the global organisations, who have to comply with all the regulators from around the world.

the amount of information coming from them, it's quite varied. don't know when, there's no set date, there's no set day. So could come either once in a month or once every three months or once a week or you just, and you have a number of these organizations across the world. So leveraging again, AI and actually scraping off, let's say the PDFs or the information from what they, what the regulators and standards sets are actually providing, putting it into this AI tool as well. Using that to summarize, okay, what's this actually

Mark Pratt (29:25.544)
Yep.

Amit (29:39.542)
telling us and then getting the SMEs to review it and say, sounds about right for, you know, for example, with Basel, Basel 2, Basel 3, someone with expertise or kind of experience and knowledge of Basel 2 would be able to understand, okay, if we put Basel 3, the basics into an AI model and what it comes out with, it sounds like it's along the right lines. And if further investigation needs to happen, they can actually go away and conduct the further investigation, get the granular level of detail. And that's where

I think as long as we use and we've been using kind of in the bank, we've been using AI very responsibly that way as well and making sure and every organization needs to be really careful in terms of what information goes in there and you can't rely on it 100 % like any technology. need an individual to actually make sure that is the output of that. Is that not only accurate, is it relevant? And then from a data perspective as well.

Mark Pratt (30:23.464)
course.

Amit (30:34.102)
every organization has to be careful in terms of making sure that customer data or anything, any identifiable data is not put into a model as well. Particularly if it's fed into the wider world as well. yeah, we kind of had experience of this as well. So I think it's definitely got a lot of potential, but like any new technology, you need the guardrails around it.

Mark Pratt (30:39.602)
Yep. Yep.

Mark Pratt (30:57.118)
Absolutely, yeah. So there's some great kind of applications of the technology to the operation. Have you had the opportunity to experiment at all as part of your role as a program manager or as part of the kind of project management profession? Have you kind of experimented to do it casually or embedded it within your day-to-day work? How have you applied the technology so far, if at all, still early days of course?

Amit (31:24.182)
Yeah, definitely early days. So I've used it and I still continue to use it. in terms of from not only understanding, okay, so what's happening and reviewing the say the amount of information we're constantly bombarded with content, you know from different news sources. So from a personal perspective, I sometimes use it to actually understand. Okay, what is the latest? What is the latest news on this? What is let's say cop 29 for example, what are the key takeaways from there? So I can use AI to actually summarize all that because I don't have you know, like three four days to actually understand all that information. So

Mark Pratt (31:47.271)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (31:51.943)
Yeah.

Amit (31:54.416)
To summarize it, you know and summarize the key points. I definitely use it that from that angle and also Understanding and this goes back on to the earlier point you mentioned about how do I keep? Myself on top of CPD and understand what's happening in the marketplace AI is another fantastic tool to actually gather all that information in the kind of on the internet and then explain to you and as long as you have the kind of parameters around it You can use that to understand. Okay, this is the key technology at the moment or this is a key element

that you need to be aware of in your industry. And that's how I use it terms of understanding, what do I need to be aware of? What could be potentially a time-waster for me? And so really kind of see the trees in the woods as well, and just kind of that focus that way. So that's how I use it.

Mark Pratt (32:43.325)
Okay cool. And how...

How do you see the landscape changing for a program manager, project manager over the coming five, 10 plus years with the integration of these tools, AI tools, large language models into project management software or day-to-day work? How do you see the landscape changing? What would you recommend to others? What would you be looking at in terms of enhancing your skills and your day-to-day work in this field?

Amit (33:15.254)
Yeah, so I see that as changing. think a lot of people see a lot of people are threatened by AI and I think from a program and I think I can see certain industry, certain roles outside of transformation being taken over by AI. So I can see that, but I would mention on those, think from a transformation perspective or program and project management perspective, I can see AI being a real support network and support kind of tool in terms of.

When you were looking at, let's say, making sure that from a change framework perspective or a business framework perspective, do we have all the artifacts in place kind of like an audit trail? So you can use AI that way just to kind of review, put in all the documents that you have uploaded and just make sure, okay, using a checklist is everything in order and then reviewing each one of those documents as well. Is there anything missing? Anything obvious missing in there? So you can save a lot of time that way. So I think from a program and project management perspective,

AI has a lot of I don't think anyone needs to be worried that it's going to take over their role especially in my space But if you if you apply it in the right way and you understand how you can actually help you going forward then I think it will be a really valuable tool in your armory as well and The evolution of AI and you know, we've got gen AI and I'm sure in a year or two. They'll be the next generation of gen AI maybe 2.0 or 3.0 or whatever it is and just Keep away keep on top of that as well

And that's what I intend to do, just make sure that I don't get left behind and I'm kind of looking at something which is two years old and then the next technologies come out over here and seeing how it can actually supplement that in my day-to-day job. But obviously being really careful in terms of what, how I use it, what information I upload in there and make sure that the guard rails are implemented and controlled as well. So the relevant controls are in place.

Mark Pratt (35:08.988)
For sure, for sure. I've seen a few times now from a few different sources variants on the following phrase, is AI won't replace the work that humans do, but humans that use AI will replace those that don't. And I think that's a nicely succinctly condensed version of some of the detail that you've just gone into. I think it's incumbent on all of us to upscale in that area. moving on now to the way that you've

been working. Obviously you've had the benefit of being a permanently employed consultant, you've had a stint as a contractor and more recently again as a permanent employee at a large corporation. So how do you see the landscape evolving in the coming years in terms of kind of the gig economy? Because at one end of the spectrum you know you've got things like you know post-COVID, hybrid working, return to office, kind of very much some employers looking to kind of impose management through time.

knowledge working space and then others kind of a bit more embracing outcomes and more gig working and how do you see that evolving in the coming years?

Amit (36:19.466)
So I think as you mentioned, think it will be very much dependent on which industry you work in. So each industry would take a very different take on that. So I think within the financial services and banking space, the gig economy and also with, think IR35 has definitely made a big impact on this space. And I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming years, if the government does take a review off that and just think, hold on, maybe this needs to be tweaked or changed or updated or whatever.

And I see, I think a lot of people have left the contract world on the back of that or as a result of that and gone more into the permanent side of the market as well. And if that does evolve from a regulatory perspective, obviously we'll see the changes on the back of that. But I think from a...

What we're also seeing now is that from a consulting perspective, before, you know, 10, 20 years ago, we had the big four, and then you had the other big players, which, which were kind of side by side against the big four. Whereas now, the last few years, you've seen this burst of smaller consultancies coming up, because they've realized that hold on, in the big exactly. And, you know, they add the same value, but at a fraction of the price of the big four, the big five, and you know,

Mark Pratt (37:29.561)
Thanks.

Amit (37:37.064)
And so I think if evolution that way is happening, not only in this space, but I think in every industry, you will see that happening. And the gig economy, think, will evolve accordingly as well. And I think nothing ever stays still. So the change will happen. We just got to see if it's going to be regulatory driven, or if it's going to be technology driven, or if it's going to be some other driver behind it. So it's an interesting space to watch.

Mark Pratt (38:03.95)
Yeah, for sure. that's why he's thinking around it. Will it be regulatory or technology driven? Because my perspective is that commercial and technical drivers will way outstrip where regulation takes us. I think it's bit of a blunt instrument at the moment. I know that there's a wide range of views on IR35 and how it's impacted the industry. And for sure, right now, there are way fewer numerically

outside IR35 opportunities. Some organizations choose to embrace it and do proper status determinations and realize that they're still able to engage individual contractors on an outside IR35 basis. Many organizations for their own reasons choose to apply blanket policies to engage in personal service companies and a whole range of things like that. think the market hasn't yet matured off the back of the changes in the regulations.

last couple of years and I actually see really more desire for kind of fractional consulting outcome-based consultancy. I think there's a huge opportunity for people who are willing to exchange their value and their outcomes for remuneration rather than their time. If you're willing to kind of, well I'll only get paid if I deliver versus you know, I want to go in and get paid a day rate. I think people who are willing and open to

embracing that model as think some organisations kind of start to embrace only paying for alcohols rather than days time. I think there'll be a huge opportunity for those people. That's just my personal perspective and what do I know? It may go in a completely different direction but yeah, I think the globalised nature of the economy will drive the need to compete on that basis. So whatever the local regulations say, I think will

will be absolutely overridden by that kind of globalised economy and technology access that will come.

Amit (40:12.884)
No, that's a point as well. think it's a really valid point. And I think from an industry or from a market perspective as well, the mindset, not only the mindset change will take time, that's my personal view, but also the process, because you can imagine a lot of these particularly large organizations which are not very nimble, the process, the embedded processes, the embedded procedures, the embedded ways of working will take a while before they actually think, hold on.

If we move towards outcome-based models, then it would be more valuable for us. then overhauling everything underlying how the business is run will take quite some time. that's, yeah.

Mark Pratt (40:55.267)
For sure, for sure. And I think how long it takes if it happens.

the speed of evolution of technology and so on may enable it. It's a classic kind of blockbuster versus Netflix kind of scenario, isn't it? In the early days of Netflix, blockbuster could have bought them for a packet of chewing gum and whatever else and declined to do so and then the rest is history. I think the same will happen as perhaps more companies who don't have any startup companies.

Amit (41:12.726)
Thank

Amit (41:19.734)
You

Mark Pratt (41:33.02)
or smaller companies who need to get that competitive edge will start to embrace those professions in that way perhaps and that will cause...

the big boys to either need to change as well to compete or not be the big boys anymore as the small boys come in and overtake them. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see how it all plays out. But I do feel that the macro situation is that outcomes value for money rather than time for money must be the way that we evolve, particularly in the technology landscape, I believe. We will see, we will see. Okay then, so.

Talk to us now a little bit about leadership, you know, running all the different projects and programmes that you have. You will have had direct management responsibility for people. You'll also have to kind of lead people through influence rather than sort of direct line management. What qualities do you think make a great sort of project leader? What sort of qualities do think you need to have to bring people on the journey with you?

Amit (42:37.44)
So I think as, so my personal style is as a servant leader. So I like to go with my hands dirty and lead by example as well. So, and I personally hate it when someone just delegates.

whatever, just managers, like a micromanager, and just delegates and takes all the credit. Whereas, know, like I've done all the work or the team's done all the work and then suddenly someone more senior takes credit and it just really winds me up. So I rather, for me, I rather, and you know, as a servant leader and someone who actually takes initiative, gets their hands dirty, gets involved, I find that that not only helps build that trust factor with the teams, with the stakeholders, but it also helps to build out your personal, build out my personal brand as well. My stakeholders,

my accountants, project sponsors, they can actually see like, hold on, it's really visible, you know, at the steercoats, the ex-coats and the relevant governance committees. But then he's also actually doing the work at the same time. He's not just leveraging other people's hard work and putting his kind of badge all over it. So from a credibility perspective really helps to build my own credibility, build my trust with the individuals that I work with and I'm delivering to or part of. And then...

Mark Pratt (43:37.644)
Yep.

Amit (43:48.682)
when I'm actually taking individuals on that transformational change journey, it just makes that whole journey that much simpler as well, because you've built that, that relationship and they know that hold on, if Amit says he's going to do something, he's going to do it. He's not just kind of, you know, just giving, he's not just kind of talking through his backside here. So, so that's a big part of leadership for me. And like you said, influencing and that whole brings it back to influencing without having the direct reports or the direct, like the direct direct reports, because your reputation

speaks volumes as well. people like for example where I'm working at the moment, individuals in different regions, different countries, different departments, they've heard about me because they've seen like hold on, he has been here for a while now and there's a reason for that. He's delivered and he continues to deliver and he continues to take ownership. That's another big word as well. If you don't take ownership of what you're delivering or whatever problem you're trying to solve, you're gonna fail somewhere down the line and it's gonna become really obvious as well. And that's why

And again, open communication as well. With my leadership style, I like to make sure that every, doesn't matter if it's a junior person, I will make sure that that junior person is at the right meetings. They're not gonna be sat outside just because they're junior. That person needs to develop, needs to grow, needs to kind of build their own career as well. So everyone needs an opportunity. And if it's someone senior, again, I'll make sure that the communications are two way as well. So junior in the middle, senior, we have the ongoing dialogue. We have the right communication channels, the right templates, the right ways.

of working and that's the way I like to kind of lead as well. each, so from my team perspective I like to understand what each team member, what drives them, what makes them tick. So really get under the skin, really understand and know them on an individual level. Not just kind of, okay so this is a team, this is what we're delivering, that's what I care about, that's not me. And that helps build that credibility.

Mark Pratt (45:39.017)
Okay.

Perfect. So what, is that a leadership style that you've ended up kind of developing organically that kind of reflects your personal values or is it something that you've put again, professional development into studying the leadership style of others to learn different techniques? How has that evolved for you? Have you kind of learned those techniques?

Amit (46:03.53)
Yeah, so it's evolved from a number of different angles. One is it started off by having worked in different industries, having worked with different stakeholders, and learning where, seeing different leadership styles as well. Seeing, I've come across some fantastic leaders and I thought they have my utmost respect and some fantastic line managers.

Mark Pratt (46:21.568)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amit (46:24.146)
And I've come across some individuals who I think, yeah, maybe not. I can learn from how they kind of either lead or manage or drive the teams and drive the programs forward. So it's evolved that way. And then also from experience as well, understanding what works, what doesn't work, how can that be improved? And also when I was doing my MBA as well, working with and studying with those individuals and learning, okay, what are the techniques? What are the methodologies? What are the tools? What can we apply? How does this work? What are the impacts of that?

bringing all that together and then that's how my whole leadership style has evolved and I've understand now, not just now, but over the years I've understood what works, what really kind of drives and how you can only understand people but how you can get the most value and the best outcome for your stakeholders as well.

Mark Pratt (47:13.076)
Okay, perfect. Brilliant, thanks for sharing that. Let's just kind of move on to the kind of more personal side now. So what is it that kind of enthuses you and gets you out of bed every day to still do this role, know, project management or program management, perhaps not the most exciting discipline or role that ever existed. So what is it that kind of keeps you motivated and what satisfaction do you take from the role personally?

Amit (47:41.396)
So a couple of different things that gets me out of bed and keeps me motivated and gives me that satisfaction.

One is the variety of the challenge. So working on and delivering programs that you know once it's done, you hand it over to BAU, you move on to the next problem statement or the next issue that you have to work on and improve. So the variety of the challenges is a key driver for me. And then secondly, it's also adding value to my stakeholders. for me, if I finish, let's say a program, I think to myself, you know what, this is how much value I've delivered and this is the feedback

I've received from the Accountable Exec, from the key stakeholders, senior management, then I go to sleep really well at night thinking, yes, I've made people happy. I've delivered what I said I was going to deliver at the start of the program and I can actually, I can see on the MI and I can see on the KPIs that look, yep.

tick, all done. And then it helps to build, not only it gives me that sense of satisfaction internally as well in terms of my personal brand and also like knowing that, you know what, if I say I'm gonna do something and I do it, then people trust me. That's, yeah.

Mark Pratt (48:49.811)
Yeah, perfect.

It can be very demanding, can't it, when you're mid-flight in a programme or challenging deadlines and perhaps long hours and late night deliveries and weekends and all these sorts of things that you can get involved with. Obviously I'm not aware of the demands on your time, but what recommendations and tips and what would you share in terms of where you draw the line in terms of work-life balance, how you've managed that over the years?

Amit (49:20.852)
Yes, over the years, I would say when I started out, I was working long hours, know, like long, days were long and also depending on what industry or what kind of clients you're working with. So I remember there was when I was working with the particularly the investment banking side, working in that industry, it's it's known for long hours, you know, very gruesome, very grueling hours and sometimes weekend delivery as well. So that was good up to a point. But then there came a point where I thought, is not sustainable. I can't be doing this for the next five,

Mark Pratt (49:49.544)
Yep.

Amit (49:50.796)
years, just, it'll just kill me. So that's when I shifted away from that and thought, okay, I've got the experience, I've learned a lot from this. Now I need to move into the other financial services space as well. So for me, it's kind of the whole work-life balance has in a summary.

start of my career, I was happy to do 60, 70 hour weeks because I had all the energy, I was learning, I had that thirst, had that hunger, I had that drive. And then once you get the experience, you think, okay, now I know where to draw the line. Now I know, hold on, I need to start a family, you've got other commitments, and then you think to yourself, I can't be doing 60, 70 hours every week, and it's not sustainable as well. For your physical health, for your mental health, you see, start seeing, and I've seen that with other people where,

Mark Pratt (50:17.492)
Uh-huh.

Mark Pratt (50:31.078)
Of course.

Amit (50:37.697)
after 20, 25 years experience, they're still working those hours. And then when you look at them, you do see the difference. So for me, it's very much kind of, okay, making it clear to my stakeholders I look, and even if it's simple things like in my email.

putting a little note on there, just saying that, these are my working hours. If you don't hear from me outside of these, then please don't be offended by that. And I expect the same thing from you as well. If I ping you, I don't expect you to reply back on your weekends or on your annual leave, because for me, that's a big note. You know, like that's your time off, that's your downtime. Enjoy it, make the most of it. So you learn, know, as you get more experience, you learn where to draw the line, how to manage your time, and how to manage your stakeholders and your deliveries as well.

Mark Pratt (51:07.548)
Thank

Mark Pratt (51:11.612)
Absolutely.

Mark Pratt (51:21.224)
Fabulous. Okay.

Coming on to the last question, which is think, going back to the theme we've touched on a few times during this conversation, which is around always learning, and I think we all always are, aren't we? Every day's a school day. What haven't you got figured out yet? What challenges are you still facing? What surprises you? What do you still think you could add to your arsenal in terms of personal improvement or professional improvement?

Amit (51:53.536)
So I think the first thing is probably the biggest thing I haven't figured out is what's this weekend's lottery numbers. That's probably the biggest thing. But I think, no, I think from a personal improvement perspective, I think I like to take baby steps. like to take kind of, not kind of, I do have my two, three, four, five year plan, but then at the same time, even with that, I like to look at that as.

Mark Pratt (52:00.943)
Hahahaha

Amit (52:20.264)
an agile approach. It's not fixed in stone. It will evolve and it's not linear and no one's career growth is linear. It's going to go up and down, up and down, up and down. And that's the way I take my thinking as well. That look, I know where I want to get to. It's going to move around. It's going to kind of, and I'm comfortable with that. I know a number of people aren't. They're very much kind of like, within five years I want to be over there. If I'm not there, I'm going to be really pissed with myself. Whereas...

Mark Pratt (52:26.664)
huh. Yep.

Amit (52:46.004)
I don't take myself that seriously. So I'll get there, but it's just journey. So that's the way look at it.

Mark Pratt (52:51.901)
Cool, perfect. We've covered a lot of ground today in the podcast, and I've enjoyed the conversation very much. Is there anything else that we perhaps haven't covered that you'd to share with the audience today?

Amit (53:07.978)
No, I think we've covered a number of different topics, like you mentioned about the whole networking side, personal brand, leadership, what gets you out of bed, the way the market could evolve going forward, and we've covered so many different topics. So I think we've covered everything. No, we just want to thank you so much again for inviting me to this podcast and thank you for your time as well.

Mark Pratt (53:28.939)
Thank you, Amit. It's been a great conversation. I hope the listeners, if you've got this far, have taken a lot from it. A gentleman like Amit's, plenty of years of experience under his belt to share. I think there were a few great little nuggets in there, so yeah, really appreciate you taking the time to share them, Amit. Thank you very much, and yeah, look forward to the next one. Cheers.