Complex Change, Simple Steps: What It Takes to Make It Stick

Summary

In this episode of the Pulse podcast, host Mark Pratt interviews Julie Gibson, a seasoned program manager with extensive experience in project delivery and business transformation. Julie shares her journey into project management, highlighting her impactful work at the Brakes Group during a period of significant mergers and acquisitions. The conversation delves into key principles of M&A, effective project delivery strategies, and the importance of stakeholder management. Julie emphasises the need for effective communication and the human side of change management, offering practical advice for navigating complex organisational changes, particularly in the context of SaaS implementations. In this conversation, Mark Pratt discusses the balance between customisation and standardisation in product offerings, the significance of mentorship in professional growth, and the importance of networking for career advancement. He shares insights from his diverse industry experiences and emphasises the need for opportunity identification in program management. Mark highlights the satisfaction derived from leading change and making a tangible impact within organisations.

Key Takeaways
✨ Her journey into project management was driven by a love for change.
✨ The Brakes Group experience was pivotal in her career, focusing on M&A.
✨ Understanding stakeholders is crucial for successful project delivery.
✨ A varied approach to communication helps engage different audiences.
✨ The Hansel and Gretel approach aids in managing change.
✨ Feedback should be sought throughout the project, not just at the end.  
✨ Mentorship plays a vital role in personal and professional development.
✨ Diverse experiences across industries enhance career opportunities.
✨ Networking is essential for securing new roles and opportunities.
✨ A strategic approach to career development can prevent being pigeonholed.
✨Embracing challenges can lead to personal and professional growth.

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Transcript

Mark Pratt (00:02.146)
Julie Gibson, welcome to the Pulse Podcast. How are you?

Julie (00:05.36)
Thank you very much and very well. How are you?

Mark Pratt (00:07.602)
Very well, you for asking. We've had a very dreary weekend following the storm. It's early December here in the UK.

And we've had a storm over the last couple of days, so the weather's been miserable. But apart from that, I'm grand. So Julie, lots to get into today. Really excited to kind of cover your skills and experience and some of your valuable insights. But why don't we start at the beginning? it's a question I ask most of my guests, but when I went to school, I didn't dream of being a program director, which is kind of where I ended up, and I don't think any of us did. So why don't you tell us, Julie, about how you made

your way into the world of project delivery and then into the leadership positions that you now hold. Take us back to the beginning, Julie.

Julie (00:55.622)
you

Absolutely well to share so my dream when I was at school I had three I wanted to be an astronaut a journalist and also somebody who looks after cats and frogs Don't know why cats and frogs, but there you go. That's how I wanted to be but I Wandered into program management because I'm very much a polymath really so within the working environment my professional career I started life in sales and marketing and in analytics

Australia be within that sort of space and then wandered into manufacturing accounting and then wandered into sales and business development side I'd had a meandering Road through and then I joined an agency business that worked with retail high-profile retailers in the UK so John Lewis Tesco people like that and

I loved that, I stayed there for six years and it was great because it gave me lots of skills within the e-commerce space, it gave me lots of skills within that retail environment and we were very much the middlemen so we would negotiate with these big retailers but also global manufacturers and we would bring their products into the UK and sell through the retailers. So was all about sort of branding but very much the marketing piece, the proposition, we were very much in the centre of all of that, very much spinning.

in the plates around it and that really appealed to me and I thought well actually a lot of that is very much a program you know everything was a program of work not just for new products but new services and new propositions so actually I found that really interesting and I was very comfortable with change I've always been somebody who welcomed change rather than kind of pushed it away but it doesn't matter what it is it could be a new tech new innovation whatever I'm always really curious and think I'm gonna give that a go

Julie (02:47.128)
and so program management was a way of me delivering change on a continuous basis and that was really how I got into it so I got into it the agency loved it and then took it on to a much much bigger scale as a freelance consultant.

Mark Pratt (03:04.234)
Okay, excellent. So there's a couple of valuable tips in there, if you're at the earlier stages of your career looking to break in. So what was your formal job title before you got into project management? What were you doing at the agency? What was your day-to-day role, I suppose?

Julie (03:19.718)
Yeah, it was a mixture really so it was a mixture of sort of technology, logistics and supply chain and also customer care. So one of the things that I did was responsible for the home delivery piece and so it was all around making sure that customers were happy, customer being the retailers, making sure that the technology was in place and working and it was all about having the latest tools and the latest software out there because e-computer

Mark Pratt (03:34.816)
Hehehehe

Julie (03:49.824)
was really starting to boom, showing my age a little bit now, but e-commerce was really starting to boom, so it was making sure that that innovation and that development, so in terms of a title, we didn't really have titles as such, it was more an amalgamation because we're a really small team, it was more our classed as general management of sort of technology, customer care, supply and demand, that kind of thing.

Mark Pratt (03:52.064)
Yep.

Mark Pratt (04:02.762)
Okay.

Mark Pratt (04:13.312)
Got it, but like any operational kind of business as opposed, change was happening around you and the environment was changing and that you saw that opportunity and kind of made your way into the more formal side of it, I guess. yeah, okay, excellent. All right, well, let's delve in a little further then. So tell us, you've obviously had the...

Julie (04:25.529)
Absolutely.

Mark Pratt (04:36.02)
benefit of working on lots of different projects in lots of different areas. Tell us about your most impactful project. What's the piece of work that had the biggest impact and what was that impact and why is it the one that you pick out?

Julie (04:54.448)
Sure, I think the one that always comes to mind really was the breaks group because when I joined the breaks group they were going through an extensive period of mergers and acquisitions and it was my first time that I'd worked in an &A environment and so it was all about the correct appraisal of that and the correct structure, the right investment case but then I was taking that and creating an integration plan.

for the acquired businesses. So it's how you integrate functions into that group successfully. And it was across every area of the business. So there's literally not one single area that wasn't been touched. And there was multiple acquisitions and integrations running concurrently. So we had one going in Ireland, we had one going over in Sweden, we had one in France, they're all over the place. it was in terms of somebody who likes change and being a plate spinner was an absolute dream because I got to

successfully across every area of the organization, touched every function, did all of the integration planning and kind of the business process design, looked at structure, then all of the amalgamation onto the new technology that we were putting in because at the same time as integrating those businesses we were rolling out Microsoft and we were rolling out Salesforce as well so it was really really full-on and it was super busy time but I learnt so much from doing that I learnt about

that integration of different businesses, how you integrate not only from an organisational and technology perspective but culturally which was very very important as well and so the skills that it gave me were were huge and it really is the go-to for the learning and the development that it gave me and the understanding of every aspect of business and I absolutely loved it.

Mark Pratt (06:45.452)
Well, let's get into it a bit more because I guess...

If you stay at one place long enough, you're buying someone or you're selling someone, that's kind of the nature of business, right? And so that's &A stands for mergers and acquisitions for those that haven't heard that term before. And there's the kind of the flip side of that as well, which is separation. So sometimes businesses carve parts themselves up and varies two sides of the same coin, would say, in terms of the way that you approach those pieces of work. So let's get into that type of work before, because it be quite overwhelming to, you you've just acquired a business or you're thinking about acquiring a business, what's the right

way to bring those two businesses together from the people standpoint, as you've mentioned, culturally, technology. Tell us about some of the lessons you've learned along the way, some of the principles that you've learned along the way about what makes a good piece of integration or &A work. I guess from the delivery side, let's look at the legal and the sales side. Let's look at the project implementation side. What are some of the key principles you've learned along that journey?

Julie (07:44.944)
So number one, understanding the stakeholders. There was a lot of, I'll speech marks, surprise stakeholders along the way. People who you weren't aware of, people who actually weren't necessarily a key stakeholder in terms of the activity, but the cultural side, getting people on board, being a champion, were huge advocates for that. So I would say understand all of the stakeholder groups and really try to seek out those advocates to help.

the process that would be number one. Number two would be really spending as much time as you possibly can on the discovery side of it when it comes to operational processes particularly when you're doing &A and integrations where you're moving to new technology as well as we were in that scenario so we're not just getting off legacy architecture we're moving to new architecture as well so there was all sorts of moving parts and I think really spending a bit more

more time on the discovery and understanding where they were currently that would have helped a little bit so I would recommend people do that. The third thing as well is just making sure the communications are on point. I think that it's a

worrying time for people because there's a lot of ambiguity business they know they've been acquired they know they're to be integrating with another organization which is completely different to theirs and obviously the people at the grassroots I think it's really really important to communicate and communicate effectively and in a timely fashion so we did have a strong communication plan for that &A but I think it could have been improved so I think it's always about how can you communicate effectively to the different groups.

And then the fourth thing as well is the pacing of it. So I think it's being honest up front about what that pace looks like of that road map and where sometimes it just, it needs to be full throttle and where other times there might be a little bit more flexibility. And so I think it's been open and honest with that at the front and building that in and acknowledging it to the teams.

Mark Pratt (09:56.147)
Okay, awesome. I'd like to delve into two parts of that if we can. First of all, kind of the project, the delivery side, and then sort of like the change and the kind of the people side. let's start with the project delivery sort of side then. I guess when you get into it, we've got a ringing in the background there. These things always happen.

Julie (10:13.702)
I'm sorry you didn't want me to.

Mark Pratt (10:17.417)
The reason I laugh is because at the start of this Julie was very diligently turning her mobile phone off but she didn't account for the home phone but we'll carry on like true pros. Yeah the project delivery side, I guess when you're integrating two businesses there's usually, well there is always an acquirer and an acquirer, there's never a merger, it's always, well somebody's always buying somebody right?

Julie (10:22.342)
You

Exactly, exactly, let's go first.

Mark Pratt (10:46.165)
And I guess fundamentally you can do one of three things. Either you can do what A does, e.g. what the acquirer does, or you can do what B does, e.g. the acquirer. Maybe they've been purchased because they're doing something in a certain way that is meaningful and valuable to the buying organization. Or you can all do something different and go to kind of option C. Talk us through your experience with how that's come about as organizations kind of always done

gone down the A road or the B road or the C road? Has it been mixed? Has it been mixed within one particular program? Tell us how some of the principles have evolved and what has been successful and what has been less successful about some of those high level decisions from project delivery standpoint.

Julie (11:33.744)
Sure, from a project delivery side, I've actually found it easier to do option C because with A or B, in my past experience, it's always been a little bit of a tussle between if A or B wins. And that's just the nature of the beast, I guess, is that organizations do tend to be wedded to how they work, how they do things, the tech that they've got, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas with C, it's a case of everybody's getting something new.

Mark Pratt (11:39.645)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Pratt (11:47.515)
Mm-hmm.

Julie (12:03.68)
to a new model, we're new to a new system and therefore that tends to be as much as there's more upheaval because there's more change management to do and more change for the teams to accept and adopt I think that because you're getting something new there's less of a of the political side of it and less of the tussle in case of who wins. So my experience C has been better I've had experience in terms of delivery of all three and in my experience

Mark Pratt (12:31.187)
Mm-hmm.

Julie (12:33.496)
it's never easy because there's always that element of...

within that change, someone's staying, someone's going. Things are going to change fundamentally for one group or both, depending on which one you choose. So project delivery, I think it's always about being robust to the scope, robust to the changes, as you would see yourself in any of the project, robust to scope, robust to change and timeline. And in an &A environment,

Mark Pratt (12:43.849)
Yeah.

Julie (13:04.506)
Timeline and road map is so so important because it tends to be linked to a big investment case as well So it's even more important than the normal But I would say to answer your question probably for a project delivery perspective See is easier to manage Yes, it's a lot of change, but it's easier to manage the people

Mark Pratt (13:09.566)
Yes.

Mark Pratt (13:21.289)
Okay cool and then if we have A or B mandated upon us have we got any tips or techniques that we could employ to save a little bit of pain?

Julie (13:35.814)
Yes, I think to save a little bit of pain if we've got A or B I would say again stakeholder so strong stakeholder management strong communication plan the road map is absolutely key so that people understand what is happening and when and I think it's explaining the reasons why I think visibility of who's going to be coordinating that &A as well that smooths the path being that point of contact I think it makes it a very busy environment for the project and

change team but being that on-hand contact that people can come to I'm an accredited coach as well and and so I try to coach the teams through this activity and I think that's also important to adopt that style because people feel that they can not necessarily unburden themselves here but they feel that they've got an ear that can be listened to and you can support them through that so I think adopting that kind of style of leadership through that &A piece is helpful for the team certainly.

Mark Pratt (14:34.983)
Okay, let's get into the people side of change before we get into the comms then. I think it'd be good to reflect a little bit on your experience of, know, that time of change, as you say, is kind of a risk and I think an opportunity for people. So whether or not you're in the acquiring business or the being acquired business, or you've been brought in to try and facilitate the change of bringing those businesses together, there is risk and opportunity. And I think as we, you know, we're talking

about just earlier and how you personally and many of our peers kind of got into change. These are the sorts of opportunities that present themselves in terms of kind of becoming a project professional of whatever discipline because if you are in that kind of &A mergers and acquisitions environment you will be inevitably even if you're kind of

day job is something else you will inevitably be sucked into the change world as that change happens around you. Do want to share any of kind of stories of people who've been in that situation, who've kind of ended up transitioning into a project career and then going on being successful from there? you know, people that have perhaps taken an opportunity where there's been an &A situation and maybe they, for example, had taken a redundancy option and then gone off and successfully been able to use that project experience elsewhere and some of the opportunities around that. you to share some of

experiences for people.

Julie (15:58.63)
Yeah definitely I have got a couple of fantastic people who I've worked with in the past who through being exposed to those kinds of programs of work have actually gone on to be program managers full-time because it was a case of I absolutely loved it and what they always say to me is is that I love the fact that I can get involved with different areas of the business so what you find in organizations is

and you correct me if you think that this is wrong but what I see in a lot of organisations is you're very much pigeonholed into one bit and I was a bit of a unicorn in that sense because since day one I've always been curious and a sponge and kind of put my hand up and did lots of different things but I think the majority of people are pigeonholed and what they saw through programmes is they got the opportunity to work with different areas of business that they wouldn't normally.

get a toy in to see what that area was like and then actually thought do you know what I like the variety of this so there's a couple of people who have coached and supported who were program managers working for me who now do that full time and they would just dis me from the business but then it was a case of I really like this and I'm really interested in it so I think it can definitely work that way I think it it doesn't always I think some people put that either put their hand up or get selected which is more often than not as a

me and then go my god this is too much work I'm pleased to be back just doing the day job but I have got a couple of examples of people who now are full-time program managers and have been for almost seven or eight years on the on the back of working on some of these big programs.

Mark Pratt (17:38.563)
Yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Just to share my experience for a second, I actually think that the best teams that you can form in these situations are teams whereby you have got those...

pigeon-holed, aka niche experts in a given field who've kind of been there, done it and bought the t-shirt several times over, augmented with people who haven't. Because I think when you bring in those people who are kind of bringing the transferable skills, asking the stupid questions, by the way, there's no stupid questions, they're valid. So if you augment the kind of the subject matter experts, the niche experts in a field with the kind of transferable skilled people who ask the stupid questions, I think that makes for the greatest harmony

diversity in a project team because I think if you have all SMEs you're in a situation whereby everybody's talking the jargon and the language and perhaps they can miss some of the more obvious requirements or the know the business why and they get kind of just carrying away with the tech or the process or whatever equally if you just bring in a load of people who are learning it new that's inevitably going to take longer cost more potentially because you you're having to go through that learning curve like anybody would but if you if you marry the two together that for me is the

Julie (18:45.552)
Absolutely.

Mark Pratt (18:50.407)
the perfect team.

Julie (18:52.048)
Absolutely and I think it helps build internal capability for the organisation as well because once they've been exposed to large-scale programmes you've got somebody who is much more rich who's got a broader skill set, better for them, better for the organisation.

Mark Pratt (18:57.241)
Yes.

Mark Pratt (19:07.789)
Absolutely, absolutely. And also deliberately bringing in and identifying, you know, the kind of the subject matter experts, the SMEs, who will be left behind at the end to carry on running the business and bringing them on throughout the project journey, making them change champions, which I guess is kind of bringing us into the change side, which is the bit I wanted to explore next and kind of setting the business up for success post that period of change. Yeah, absolutely.

Julie (19:16.709)
Yes.

Julie (19:30.776)
Yes absolutely.

Mark Pratt (19:37.723)
Let's get into that change side then, because it's always a variable part of any project is the people, right? We're all individuals, we can't be controlled. Different ranges of emotions at any one time. tell us some of the tools and techniques that you've...

Julie (19:43.022)
you

Mark Pratt (19:54.917)
deployed along the way, some of the learnings on that people side of change things. So, you know, obviously, you many people will talk about communication and everyone will nod along and go, yes, obviously communication is key, but make it a little bit more practical for us then, Julie, from your, you know, from your experience. What does great communication look like? What does world-class communication look like from your perspective and how people responded really well to some of the, you know, projects and programmes that you've been involved with from a communication standpoint?

And conversely, are some of the less favourable situations where people perhaps haven't been communicated to as well and different outcomes. Share some of that experience with us please.

Julie (20:35.554)
Absolutely, yeah. I think for me, communication needs to be varied. The change management needs to be varied in its approach because it's not one size fits all. And I think where it fails, and I've heard some horror stories from other people, but where it fails is that where it's kind of that communication plan is on a spreadsheet and it's just, yeah, I've spoken to that person and it's ticked. So for me, it's things like lunch and learns. I'm a big believer in if you

get people getting interactive and bring people in and give them just drop in sessions so run lots of drop in sessions where they can come with and ask questions. Byte size learning so when you're bringing in particularly new tech and things having bite size learning where they can build up their knowledge. I'm a big fan of recording sessions as well giving people access to links where they can access the material at any time but don't assume that everybody loves tech there are still people out there who's not

and absorbing information and text so making sure that we have sessions where people can work walk through process flows they can walk through any operating procedures so lots of training sessions like that up front communication so I always like to communicate ahead of something happening and give what are we classes seeds so what works really well in change management is a Hansel and Gretel approach you drop those sweets and you keep planting them all the time so okay

This is where we are but this is what's coming and then when you get to what's coming, this is where we are This is what's coming again So there's much forward notice of the changes that's happening as possible because one thing people don't like is surprise and I think in change management what lasts well is a varied report so lots of different ways for them to connect with the project and for the project to connect with the people But then also that Hansel Gretel get them used to the change get talking about it early tell what's coming and then

open to feedback as well. think one of the learnings of me throughout various programs is actively seek that feedback that goes beyond a lessons learned. So in program and projects it tends to be that lessons learned, Pete, let's get on a whiteboard or a Miro or wherever and let's put our post at Norton. This is what we could do better.

Julie (22:57.838)
And that's great, but I think actually for me it's important to get that feedback as you go through the programme so you can adjust and you can pivot to where you need to be as the programme progresses. And I think if you can make those changes along the way, again from a people perspective and an adoption of the change, it lands better rather than delivery and then feedback all at the end. So my approach to feedback and learning lessons

in programs is to actually front load the feedback so start very early on and actively ask for that feedback and bring it in.

Mark Pratt (23:37.538)
Yeah 100 % love the Hansel and Gretel thing all those little memory pegs are really useful I find so yeah yeah that's right.

Julie (23:42.618)
Yeah, they really are. And they help people anchor as well. They help people anchor into the change and it helps people get used to it.

Mark Pratt (23:50.434)
That's right, that's right. I think as well, when we talk about kind of change, not many people like change to be done to them. They like to to be done with them. Too often I think organizations or particularly if it's a technical project or a systems based project, you know, that kind of becomes the focus of the project and kind of the people piece kind of gets a little bit left behind. Where I'm going with this is kind of around SaaS implementation software as a

implementations which over the last few years and I know you've got some of those on your CV that will get into then Julie SAS implementations whereas kind of perhaps historically or in the past when there was a software implementation traditionally you know the analysts would gather the requirements and then the developers go off and develop those requirements of the business so the business got something around what they wanted and now with the kind of ubiquity of these software as a service platforms often the requirements are set

Julie (24:25.754)
Yes.

Mark Pratt (24:50.338)
because that's what the software does out the box or in the cloud and now we have to bring the people to the product and you know educate folk on this is the way that we're to do it now because this is the right way to do it we're not going to try and do it our old way we're going to try and do it this new way. Have you had any particular kind of experience of that and kind of having to take the people to the product rather than the know the product to the people so to speak?

Julie (25:14.5)
Yes, yeah very much so and I agree with elements of what you said there is that you know we are in a very what I would class a tech centric world we are in our own personal lives and so what happens is you know we do get a product that comes to us but having said that I do think because I look at a recent sort of Microsoft implementation that I did

Mark Pratt (25:26.476)
Yeah.

Julie (25:41.284)
working with a team of professionals. And if we look at that, you know, the requirements were still gathered because you can tweak certain elements to meet the needs. So the requirements were still gathered. There was still that process and that workflow piece that was done. There was a whole discovery. Then we moved into planning that program. Then we moved into implementation. So even though you've got a scenario where, yes, this is a product and this comes to you, you've still got the ability to

Mark Pratt (25:48.204)
Okay. Yeah.

Julie (26:11.208)
bespoke elements of it. I think the challenge that we have is that we've got to help organisations and their teams accept some of these new innovations like they would in their personal lives. So if you think about it, we accept that we are doing internet banking now. We accept that we can order online for this, that and the other. So why is it different in a work scenario when

Mark Pratt (26:25.804)
Good.

Julie (26:38.818)
you know we've yes we might have done a spreadsheet for 20 years but now we're getting a

a new product. So I think there's an element of helping teams understand the benefits of SAS and how that can work with them and spending that time. I don't think it's always the case of the products just brought to them. I think there is elements where that can still be bespoke and you can still tweak to meet their requirements. And where you can, I think that does yield benefits. So I think it's positioning with the teams and making them understand

standards where actually off the shelf is best but look these are the certain elements that perhaps we can work with you develop so it just helps to get that balance I think

Mark Pratt (27:26.508)
Sure, and of course it depends upon the product stack and the business and their particular USPs. Sometimes it is right to highly customise a product or what have you. guess some of these software as a service products are obviously very highly configurable and workflow based and you do end up doing a lot of configuration to bring them to the business requirements. Other times that I'm thinking more like, for example, a core HR system.

Julie (27:32.454)
Yes.

Julie (27:41.456)
Exactly.

Julie (27:52.154)
Yes.

Mark Pratt (27:56.482)
or a CRM system or a finance system, something like this, where they are a lot more kind of set and there is limited configurability. Again, it upon the size of the product and the stack and everything else. But yeah, just very, very, very interesting. Okay then, let's move on then to kind of mentorship and growth then. So obviously, throughout your career, I'm sure you will have sat both in informal or formally,

Julie (28:07.738)
Yeah, it does.

Mark Pratt (28:26.372)
and also the mentee seat, you'll have benefited from some mentors along the way. Do you want to start with any kind of, I'll have to call them out by name unless you wish to, but the mentors and people that you've looked up to, how you've found those people, what you've got from them and what you would encourage others to do in terms of getting themselves a mentor.

Julie (28:51.106)
Absolutely, I mean the first MD that I worked for Alan Westbury at Limpaq he was fantastic and what I loved about Alan was as a mentor he was very open and he would share his wealth of experience and he was comfortable with me moving into different departments learning different things taking on roles that on paper looked polar opposite but it helped build my skill set and it helped

give me a really good rounded understanding of business and the commercial aspects of it at quite a young age so Alan was a huge one for me and very grateful to him for really the first I would say eight or nine years of my working life and helping me develop so he was the the first one. I think the second one that comes to mind

would be as part of the Mechaplast group when I worked there's a couple of people who worked with their the operations director was fantastic the MD was fantastic and again moving from FMCG packaging into automotive automotive was very strict very regimental it was quick fire all the time and that gave me a really good understanding of how to work at pace and how to juggle lots of plates and again played into those skillset

So they were very good for me. But then I think the one most recently would be a lovely gentleman called John Simmons who works for RTC North actually. We did and he mentored me when I was thinking of setting up my own

Businesses and sort of having a look at different opportunities and he was great in just Brainstorming good sounding board again really open very very honest would say if they didn't like something say if he did and again shared his wealth of Experience at setting up and leading and managing companies So I think across that those would be the key ones for me from me receiving mentorship I've never actually had a mentor who was a

Mark Pratt (30:31.455)
you

Julie (31:00.04)
Programme Director or who worked in &A or anything like that. I never had a mentor in that space simply because that opportunity never came up but I always had good people that I could lean on outside of the organisation I was working with who could, you if I wanted to be a good sounding board I've always believed in having a good network and being grateful and maintaining those connections.

Mark Pratt (31:29.617)
Okay, that's translate you've benefited from some great people there and on the other side, you mentor anybody and what do you get from that and what do they get from it?

Julie (31:41.914)
Yes, yes I do. I really actively like to do it. As I say, I'm an accredited advanced coaching mentor. I did that through Leeds Beckett University some years ago and I started doing that I would say a couple of years before I started working freelance as a contractor and before I sort of joined an &A environment and it's just something that I find really, rewarding. So there was a couple of people at the agency business that I worked for, marketing agency that I said I met.

mentor them to increase their skill set, take on leadership roles, take on more responsibility and help build their confidence as well to be able to do things. I think that's important for to give your mentees the confidence to progress and grow and try new things and also I'm somebody who's not frightened of failure. I always plan to succeed and I work hard to succeed but I understand that you know you can try things, make a mistake, course correct very quickly.

and then get where you need to be so I wanted to encourage them to do that as well. And then also outside of the working environment I have been a coach to new girls and girls and women who wanted to get into technology in the program management space. I've done that on a number of occasions now for a number of years and also being a good sounding board and sort of a listening ear and a private listening ear to CEOs and exec members that I've worked with as well because I think that's very very

important to help them steer the ship and so I've done that as well.

Mark Pratt (33:15.806)
Yeah.

Amazing, sounds really rewarding. That sounds fabulous. yeah, great. Okay, there's one area that I want to delve into, Julian, I think people will be really interested in, and that's the breadth of kind of different industry experience that you've had. So you mentioned FMCG before, fast moving consumer goods, for those that don't know that acronym. You've mentioned kind of some public sector work. You mentioned the automotive sector. I think one of the things

Julie (33:20.89)
It is.

Mark Pratt (33:47.357)
that I hear quite often from people who act as project managers, program directors, program managers, those sorts of roles is frustration around, know, I've got very, very transferable skills, you know, if I can run a program here, I should be able to run a program there, it's not about the niche knowledge, it's about the, you know, the program, the governance side of it more than the niche knowledge.

Share with us how you've been able to effectively kind of secure those different opportunities in those different sectors and if they've been barriers in terms of you being able to move around and the transferability of the skills and any tips that you can offer anyone who's kind of, you know, perhaps been, you know, got stuck in a niche, been pigeonholed, as you said, you know, because I'm a, for example, financial services project manager, that's, you know, that's where forever where I need to work and how you managed to kind of break out of that one, you know, segment niche.

to multiple segments. What could you share with us around that?

Julie (34:43.546)
Yeah sure, as you said I've worked in a number of different sectors, everything from public health to automotive to sports and fashion and I think for me I've always sought out the opportunities that stretch me and I've been fortunate enough that opportunities have come to me as well that stretch me out of the comfort zone that I was currently in into something new and I've not been afraid to sort of take that on and that shows within the CV I've been able to

move around. think that...

Whilst I do understand the frustration, I think we have to acknowledge as consultants and contractors that there are times and certain industries whereby it does help to have a little bit of an experience. So for example, for myself, because I've done a large stint in &A and integration, I would be confident of going into that next time. Whereas if you've got a program director who hasn't done that, it will be more of a challenge.

to create that program, to create the integration planning that would be needed if you've not had that experience. You could do it, but it would take you longer. I think legal is another one whereby if you're going to work in the legal sector, it does help to understand a little bit of the jargon. So I think we've got to accept that. However, I wouldn't be put off because I think that...

The more you can get that's diverse, the more diversity will come to you. So for example, being able to move from FMCG to automotive wasn't that much of a stretch because ultimately it was still a form of manufacturing, but it was different. And then that afforded me to be able to move into the retail agency, which yes, they were an agency, but actually they were also working with manufacturers around them.

Julie (36:35.14)
then moved from there into...

the food service and retail which yes they were different but they did still deal with manufacturers so what I would recommend people do is look to see where the links are rather than where they're not. I think as consultants and contractors they do tend to look at that and go no they want insurance experience no they want this try to look for where there are similarities try to think about have you worked on a program where actually you did need to work with a legal team so yes you might not

have worked in the legal sector but you may have to have had had lots of exposure and working with legal teams which for example if you were in &A you would have to so try to draw on where you have had so it might not be the full breadth of sector experience but actually do you know what I have had that exposure for this period of time as part of this program and then as well as that I've got all of these transferable skills so try to use the elements rather than

the big banner of, I haven't worked in financial services. I think that, I think that derails people a little bit and I think that's where the frustration comes from and they feel that, I can't go for that because the advert says I haven't got that experience. Well actually, if you've got elements...

sell those elements because you know that's your experience and then also come with the transferable stuff so I would advise people do that and I would advise they look for contracts where they are getting diversity you know try not to do the same thing again I've always tried

Julie (38:15.19)
particularly since I've gone freelance as a contractor. I've always tried to do different things, to do different programmes, to do different contracts because the more diversity you have the easier it is to get more diversity in the future.

Mark Pratt (38:28.429)
Yeah, that is really smart. You've summed it up really well there. was going to summarize it in a similar way, but yeah, know, that diversity breeds diversity. If you've demonstrated yourself in six different sectors or niches or whatever, you know, descriptor you want to give it, you know, it stands to reason that you'd probably be pretty good at a seventh as well, rather than if you've just done one and you've just taken the next easy contract, so to speak. And I guess it's about being deliberate about that. And I was going to ask you a question around, you know, at the beginning,

Julie (38:47.0)
Exactly.

Yeah.

Mark Pratt (38:58.574)
were you deliberate about I do want to move around or did you kind of just take some opportunities and then that became your thing? How did that transpire?

Julie (39:08.9)
No, I was very deliberate and very strategic. So I was very clear with myself that I didn't want to get pigeonholed as just a pro-gap director in public health or just in &A or just in this and just in that. And whilst you can, I suppose there's an argument that says you don't want to be too general. I firmly believe as a freelancer, it pays you to be as diverse as possible because then it means that you can set

Mark Pratt (39:10.757)
Yeah.

Julie (39:38.854)
way nice and easily into something into the next thing it demonstrates the capability to adapt and run and you know grow really quickly for the organization so I've never had a situation where

slowed anything down because I was getting up to speed so when I get a new contract I spend time before I even land researching, researching the sector a little bit so even if I've worked there I'll refresh the knowledge and say right this is where it is at the moment this is the landscape this is what they're dealing with so I make sure I get myself up to speed so there's no waste of time I can literally press go from the get-go and I think that that makes a difference and yes very very deliberate about

let's get diverse, let's build the experience because it's better for me as well you know I like variety and I like to learn I'll be a lifelong learner and so it's better for me as an individual but also as a freelancer as well and it makes securing the next contract a lot easier.

Mark Pratt (40:41.711)
I think that growth mindset is definitely a powerful asset. Julie, share with us your experience about, because one of the things that we talk about quite a lot in Project Partners and on the podcast and in the Pulse community is about your network being the key to unlocking your next opportunity. And obviously, I'm assuming if you're moving from kind of sector to sector, niche to niche,

Julie (40:46.149)
Yeah.

Mark Pratt (41:07.243)
Often your network is not there your networks kind of in the niches that you've already been in so share with us How you've come about developing those opportunities have they been through kind of job applications through recruiters through your network by kind of Following people who've perhaps made the move ahead of you. How have you secured those new roles in those different niches?

Julie (41:30.086)
So it's been a blend, Mark. So for some of it, it's been recruiters coming to me and saying, we've got this opportunity. Are you interested? Seeing your profile, blah, blah. Some of it has been, I'm very fortunate to have two key contacts in my black book who I've worked with on a number of contracts now. And actually I consider to be dear friends as well as colleagues and people who give me jobs. So that's served me very well. And I'm very grateful for those two people.

Mark Pratt (41:36.918)
He he he.

Mark Pratt (41:54.459)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julie (42:00.18)
as well but I think also I take the Hanson and Gretel approach with networking as well in that some of the seeds I'm planting today I'm not expecting to sprout until 2026 2027 but I will start the ball rolling so I create a pipeline in terms of contacts in terms of network in terms of where I'm getting out to I'm doing more and

Mark Pratt (42:01.029)
Mm-hmm.

Julie (42:30.092)
speaking now so talking to your good self I was very fortunate to be asked to speak at a digital transformation and AI in business conference in London recently which which I enjoyed which was a great experience so I do things like that I get out and I talk to people and then you know yourself you meet people you connect and you think this is a fantastic person I'm going to actually put that in put them in some sort of circle and I would love to to cultivate that and keep

Mark Pratt (42:53.304)
Mm-hmm.

Julie (43:00.006)
talking because I think it would be great for us to work together so I use that as well and I try to cultivate those relationships so it's very much a blend of being approached and people seeking me having two core contacts who repeatedly come to me for work and then also constantly looking at my network actively going out there trying to build that network and also serving others as well because

I like to do that, you know, if I meet out a new contact and I think, well, actually we're not right for each other, but you know what? They'd be brilliant for that person. So I like to try and connect others as well and do the same for them.

Mark Pratt (43:40.042)
Exactly. think one of the things that's becoming abundantly clear to me through the podcast series and through my interactions with kind of, I've got a huge network of contractors being, you know, leading this business. And I think one of the, one of the shared characteristics, which I think everybody could really benefit from understanding is those freelancers, interims, consultants, contractors, whatever term you put across yourself, who spend some of their time deliberately investing in their kind of

pipeline, business development, marketing, sales, that you have to do that if you want to be a very successful consultant, interviewer, freelancer. Because if you spend 100 % of your time delivering for your current client, you're neglecting yourself, you're neglecting your own business, and that will lead to gaps in your engagements that you may or may not want. And so it sounds like you've that figured out pretty early there, Julian, in terms of planting those seeds.

Julie (44:11.706)
Yeah. Yeah.

Julie (44:19.364)
You can.

Julie (44:32.517)
Yeah.

Julie (44:37.986)
Yeah, always and and I mean again coming from a sales background, which is where I started, you know I've always had a pipeline way of thinking and I've always had One eye on today and one eye on tomorrow and that's the same for me in my personal life as it is Professionally as well. I've always thought that way I've always thought was the right way to be and that's part of what I do for businesses So therefore why wouldn't I do it for myself and my work?

and would encourage any consultant, interim, contact, as you say, whatever the term, I would encourage everybody to start to think in that way because it will serve them better.

Mark Pratt (45:05.24)
Yeah, exactly.

Mark Pratt (45:16.79)
Yeah, I mean, it's just like, you the concept of a pension, which I'm sure everybody gets, you if you put all of your money in the bank now and spend it all, you're not going to have a pension and you're not going have a particularly enjoyable retirement probably. But if you put some money in Future Bank, well, will bear fruit down the way. we're definitely worth definitely worth investing in. Let's let's just come to the personal side of it now then, Julie. So what kind of aspect of this role kind of gives you the most satisfaction? It can be quite, you know, a tiring

Julie (45:34.158)
Exactly. Yeah.

Mark Pratt (45:46.754)
and draining role leading change. What is it that keeps you going and where is your buzz derived from the role?

Julie (45:55.974)
So the biggest buzz is making the change and making it stick.

So that's what I love about it because like I said earlier, I love change. I really do and I love making an impact, making a difference. I'm somebody who likes to see where she's been on day two. That's kind of my philosophy. I'm quite impatient with myself. So I'm very patient with other people, but with me, I like to see that I'm having results and making an impact literally straight away. So I think once I can see that and I can see

the change and it's stuck and they've not unraveled it so there hasn't been one instance yet where anybody's unpicked or undid something that I introduced which I'm pleased with and that's what I get a buzz out because that's true change then and it's truly something that they wouldn't want to go back from and that's that's what I love about it that's what I get the buzz out of I wouldn't want to be somebody who didn't who made a small impact and just did that

over 10, 20 years that's not my bag my bag is high impact get get it done deliver as much as possible within that time have the most positive impact on the organization and its people that's what I get the buzz out of

Mark Pratt (47:19.49)
fabulous, fabulous. And if you had the opportunity to design your next contract, what sort of project would it look like, what sort of industry would it be in, who would you be working with, what sort of work would you be doing, tell us about your ideal contract.

Julie (47:35.174)
So I do contract next time, I would say definitely got to be a large scale and complex transformation.

I like a puzzle to solve, I love puzzles Mark so yeah I would definitely love that large scale complex transformation deals with every area of the business and one way they wanted me to do holistic change so they wanted me to change the organisation, change the tech, change the culture I would love that and ideal sector

I'm a bit sector agnostic. I must admit I loved working in the public health sector so the NHS was fantastic, loved working for the Department of Health so public health and longevity as I'm kind of I don't want to share my age what I say yeah as I'm progressing as I'm progressing in life let's put a positive spin on it

Mark Pratt (48:23.115)
you

Mark Pratt (48:27.561)
We all are, Julie, we all are.

Julie (48:28.806)
So as I'm down that road yeah so health and longevity is something that comes up a lot so I'm definitely interested in that and space I must admit I'm very interested in space literally space up there so I'm to anything

Mark Pratt (48:49.784)
Two sectors I'd love to get involved in myself there. Yeah, that'd be excellent. And I guess, you know, none of us have got it all figured out. You know, there's plenty of kind of challenges left I'd love to take off. What are the kind of challenges that even, you know, with all of the experience that you've gained that you're still working on? What nuts have you still got to crack?

Julie (48:52.07)
Yeah.

Julie (49:13.368)
nuts to crack from a change perspective? That's a really good question.

I would say that the one that I would like to and I have had a go at it before but I would like to have another go really would be in

kind of the maybe the food sector, the food service sector. I still felt that there was a bit of an overhang and a longer stint that I could do there and more than I could do. So maybe that one would be another nut to crack. In terms of the actual nuts and bolts of program and delivery and that kind of stuff, I've done so many iterations that there's nothing within the functional role that I feel would be a nut to crack, but there's certainly from an industry's perspective.

I would like to go back there but I would love to work in the insurance sector or the financial services sector I would love to get my teeth into into one of those two so yeah there would maybe be the three nuts if you like to crack

Mark Pratt (50:25.215)
Fabulous, well all your details will be in the podcast share notes so if there's anyone in those sectors who's liked the sound of what Julie's been talking about then do reach out to her directly and see if there's some synergy there. I think that the final question that I love to ask people Julie is about sharing anything that I've not asked you about. So obviously there's a huge range of topics that we could have covered and lots of experience that we've not touched on and different things like that. What is it that I've not asked you about today

go on to today that you'd love to share with us.

Julie (51:01.092)
The one that we...

should be talking about more in program management is that opportunity identification. We talk a lot in programs and I know it's part of you know MSP methodology, Princeton methodology all of those around that risk framework and and the management of risk but we never talk about we don't talk enough about that opportunity identification and how can we really capitalize on that. I see so many instances of where

the planning and the execution of Programs, there's lots of little nuggets along the way and lots of opportunities where we go Do you know what if we just just reprogrammed that section of the timeline we could do this this this and it wouldn't that be fantastic and what I'm often met with is a bit of risk aversion which is do you know what? We've got our plan. We've got it all agreed the exec think this Let's you know, we've got the board. Let's keep it all and I think that

you know we should be bolder and have a little bit more courage in some of these things. I think people are so frightened to fail and wanting to adhere to a timeline and the planning and all rest of it that sometimes they're not capitalizing on the opportunities so I think

professionals we should be talking more about that opportunity identification. How do we go about it? How do we bring it to life for organizations? What can we do more of in that space? How can we build their confidence so that yes it might not have been in the original scope or it might not fit to that original timeline but we could actually deliver something that will be a fantastic opportunity for the business in whatever that may be. So I think opportunity identification is something that we need to do more of in professional

Julie (52:48.76)
management and talk more about as programming project professionals because I think that that in itself if you think about sales and pipeline and delivery and attracting new contracts I think that's something that could really be a winner and set people apart is that you actively look for that and deliver it for the business.

Mark Pratt (53:10.569)
I think you're dead right there Julie, the, aren't we psychologically programmed to be, you know the fear of loss is greater than the joy of gain or whatever the, yeah I've probably butchered that psychologically but that is I think how we're hardwired and yeah like for me, anyone who knows me even the slightest bit will know that...

Julie (53:21.529)
It's a shame.

Mark Pratt (53:31.101)
risk management for me is kind of, for me, the be all and the end all of how to deliver a successful project, know, properly managing your risks, I mean, properly managing them. But yeah, often we ignore, you know, the positive risks is how I would call them, you know, not everything has to be about loss aversion, it can be about opportunity as well. So I think you're dead right there. And that's a wonderful way to round us off. yeah, maybe if we all looked at the opportunities a little bit more, it wouldn't be a better place to

Thank you so much for your time today Julie, I've really enjoyed the conversation. think you've served some really smart insights there around different ways that you've gone about enhancing your career and the different programmes and the &A pieces that you've delivered. I think it's been a great chat and I really thank you very much for your time. Thanks Julie, cheers, bye bye now.

Julie (54:01.767)
Exactly.

Julie (54:25.65)
Thank you