Why Most Projects Are Doomed: Empathy Unlocks Progress

"Silos fragment everything—it's like breaking a piece of glass over and over again."

In this episode of the Pulse podcast, Christina shares her unique journey into project management, starting from her university days to her current role. She discusses the importance of communication, the balance between theory and practice in project management, and the value of mentorship. Christina emphasises the need for project managers to adapt to client methodologies and the significance of marketing oneself as a contractor. She also highlights the importance of keeping track of achievements and the power of networking through platforms like LinkedIn. In this conversation, Mark Pratt discusses the importance of asking for help, building a personal brand, and understanding the strategic elements of project management. He emphasises the need for clarity in objectives and the dangers of organisational silos. Mark also shares his passion for project management, the joy of overcoming challenges, and the role of AI in enhancing productivity and decision-making.

Key Takeaways

✨ Effective communication is crucial in project management.
✨ Theoretical knowledge must be balanced with practical experience.
✨ Certifications help understand different project delivery styles.
✨ Client methodologies can vary greatly between organisations.
✨ Mentorship plays a vital role in professional development.
✨ Contractors should quantify their value in the job market.
✨ Reaching out to others can provide valuable insights and support. Being asked for help is irresistible and fosters connection.
✨ Humility in asking for help is crucial in professional settings.
✨Building a personal brand is essential for career growth.
✨ Strategy should be the focus in project management, not just execution.
✨ Understanding the 'why' behind projects is key to success.
✨ Silos in organisations hinder collaboration and effectiveness.
✨ Finding joy in the pressure of project management can lead to satisfaction.
✨ AI should be seen as a tool to enhance productivity, not a replacement.
✨Focusing on outcomes rather than outputs is vital for organisational success.


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Transcript

Mark Pratt (00:01.582)
Christina, welcome to the Pulse podcast. How are you today? Hello. Hi Mark. Thanks for having me. I am well, thank you and yourself. Yes, yes, very well. Thank you for asking. It's right at the start of 2025 as we record this brand new year. It's actually Friday the 3rd of January, late on Friday the 3rd of January. So a lot of people not even back at work yet. So thank you for making the time to join me today, Christina. I know we've got...

a lot that we'd love to cover. let's get into it, shall we? Yeah, sure. Beautiful. OK, so the question I always love to start with is about how you got into the profession. Because when I went to school, I never aspired to be a project manager or program director or the various different roles that I've occupied. And I'm sure that was the same for you as well. So why don't you tell me about your journey into the profession, how you entered into the field of project management and the twists and turns through kind of

back end of education and into your early career and everything that led you to this place today? Sure. OK, so basically I was at university and in the final year of studying international relations, I decided, I want to be a consultant. was like, what does that look like? So after doing some investigations, I thought the best place to start is project management. So I didn't even know what project management was. kind of went down a

rabbit hole as I was trying to understand how I would fit into consultancy. And it so happened to be that when I graduated there was a consortium amongst the East Midlands universities that gave opportunities to anyone that graduated from a university in that region and one of them was a project management internship for the Department of Health. So I applied for that and luckily I was one of four.

And that basically laid the foundation for me. I started that for six months, then four months. So was 10 months in total. And from there I moved, because I'm originally from Birmingham, I moved to Reading and started off as a project admin. Went from project admin to project support to project analyst.

Mark Pratt (02:20.47)
And then a wonderful soul took me under her wing and was like, why are you not contracting? And I was like, what's contracting? I thought that was for people that had like 30 years experience, not me basically. And she literally guided me through how to present my CV, how to show value and metrics, introduced me to recruiters. And within five months, I was a project support officer.

in the NHS and I went from that to Vodafone, went into Telco, went from PMO analyst all the way up to program manager. Awesome. That's really cool and quite unique actually. So I'd love to cover both of those topics. Let's start with the of the entry point because that is relatively unique. know other people will have gone down a similar road, but it is quite unusual to kind of go straight into project management. Many times people learn a particular

you know, operational roles or something like this, and then get involved with the project and kind of going that way. But obviously you've made the decision to go straight into project management, like straight out of education. So tell us how you found that kind of going straight in and then, you know, you know, executing on the project management discipline. Tell us what that looked like day to day, you know, when you first, you know, your first day in this internship, what did that look like and how did that develop?

It was definitely a baptism of fire because prior to that, I had never worked in like a corporate space. So I had done barista, retail, you know, the things that you would do as a young adult student. And luckily for me, I had a wonderful mentor and she would guide us every week and give us skills. So she'd take a Friday afternoon to upskill us, to teach us the nuances of project management.

So it was, even though it was an internship and I was working directly with nurses and health practitioners, she took her expertise in project management and really poured into us. But there were things that what you thought was simple wasn't so simple. So expecting people to, you know, do the job that they're paid to do, you know, these little things. And then you start learning about what stakeholder management and stakeholder engagement really is.

Mark Pratt (04:41.193)
and navigating the fact that people, different people communicate differently. So, you know, you're calling and you're not getting a response. Sometimes you're emailing and you're not getting a response and you had to really learn that everybody's different. I think that was the real learning curve that no, not everyone's going to respond to an email whilst others you can call. I had a stakeholder that the only way I could get him was to go to his office and sit there.

Yeah, yeah. And make him respond. So yeah, that was, yeah, that, that, was a lot initially, but I definitely value that experience because now one of the first questions I will ask clients, customers, how do you like to communicate? And you get that out the way you, you solve a large chunk of problems. That's an absolutely cracking nugget straight, straight in only five minutes in and that's an absolutely cracking nugget.

Well, I think often, particularly post pandemic as well, lot of people are kind of sat behind a keyboard managing projects and a great deal of the skill of kind of obviously like the best project managers are getting kind of the best outcomes is that connection, that personal connection and asking people how they like to communicate such a small thing, but probably something that we perhaps forget to do in the heat of battle. So,

That small little thing asking people how they like to be communicated with, be it face to face, over the telephone, through WhatsApp, email, whatever it might be, understanding how stakeholders like to communicate, I think is a cracking top tip to start us off with. With that being said, I'll follow up by saying, regardless of how they want to communicate, cover yourself. Yeah, of course. Because some people like to communicate as a coffee trip or, I've just said it in passing.

So one of the things I'll always do is when they've said or agreed, just follow up in email formally because within communicating, I also learned that memories can be quite short. Yeah, they can. So now I'll communicate something as per our discussion earlier, just so I know, even for my own sake, which can be quite selfish, but for my own sanity and sake, I know what was said and when.

Mark Pratt (07:04.473)
And when you've sent that audit trail email, they can dispute it or not, but at least it's there. So always, always covering yourself. Wise counsel indeed. Sounds like you've been a couple of times. Short memories indeed. So, yeah, let's go back to that entry point, because I think that is an interesting, know, particularly for people who are in that earlier stage of the career or thinking about embarking on that journey, it'd be really interesting. So tell us about kind of the theory versus the practice, because

Obviously, some of the theoretical elements of project management, perhaps, I'd love to understand the education side of it. Did you do a formal qualification, different types of project management disciplines and styles versus the practicality of, you always have to become part psychologist when you become a project manager, right? So, yeah, tell us about the theory side, any qualifications that you went through or subsequently went through.

plus then some of the key learnings from a practical side. Yeah. So initially in the internship, I did my Prince II Foundation and I got a lot of value from that as a newbie. So I just want to separate the two here. So as a new person into project management, it gave me an overall structure and general understanding of project management and the type of artifacts.

Checklists, documentations and so forth that you are meant to do. However, I noticed that it's not all encompassing and it's very good to have these frameworks and methodologies, but realistically, no one really uses them fully and that's not necessarily a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with taking what works for your organization as long as you get the outcome that you want.

So as a advocate of continuous learning, I went and self-funded my APM, so Association for Project Management, Project Management Qualification, PMQ, and then I done Agile Project Management. And recently, as of a couple weeks ago, or not even a couple weeks ago, I got my certified Scrum Product Owner. And the reason why I...

Mark Pratt (09:28.439)
collect certifications is because you get to understand different delivery styles. You also understand different terminology. So for example, when you do agile, you get very familiar with sprints and timeboxing. When you use waterfall methodologies, it's more structured. So when you collect these tools, so to speak, when you go into a project, after a while you can assess, hmm,

All right, this requires regulatory input. Okay, this is more waterfall because we can't do C until we do A and B. But then on the other hand, if I'm delivering for a SAS organization, it's iterative. it's like, okay, we don't need to be so linear in our approach. Let's do sprints. So it just allows you to, I guess, modify and mold to the delivery needs according to what the client needs.

Very much so. And how have you found a kind of client receptiveness to your kind of, you know, thinking about what might be the appropriate methodology? Is it very kind of client driven? Are you kind of afforded the opportunity to make a recommendation about the methodology style? Tell us a little bit more about that. Sorry, Christina, I was speaking in history. My experience is that particularly larger corporations

and will have their kind of house methodology and stick to it religiously and there's no flexibility. Others, particularly, as you say, smaller perhaps, startups, far as a service, something like this, much more kind of, don't care how we get there as long as we get there quickly sort of attitude. So yeah, tell us about your experience around that. Definitely that. So when I worked for...

A telco, a major telco, they worked on a hybrid methodology and you had to go through their steps. So in that case, I will do that. But then I've been in smaller organizations that are like, help, just deliver, please. So I totally do it based on the client need. However, sometimes I do feel that clients can be stuck in their ways. So it's almost like they're doing something out of habit.

Mark Pratt (11:46.771)
And because they've always done it that way, they don't necessarily take into account not only new ways of working, but often how the delivery teams work. So working in tech, more often than not, being very linear does not work because a developer's mind just doesn't work like that. And you have to compliment them because although you're the project manager, are the gods of the work, the masterminds of the work.

So if you're bombarding them with excessive reporting, when they want to focus on delivery, can almost stifle the success. So sometimes I do think that organizations may need to take a step back and actually ask the people that are doing the work on the ground, what would you prefer? Because they know how to do their job.

And sometimes I think that credit's not given to, I'm very tech biased by the way, is not given to the developers and the techies and the subject matter experts. And oftentimes they're dictated to, and it doesn't actually compliment their mind, the problem solving of it and how they work through the solution to get to the end product. So sometimes that can be a pain point.

What I try to do, and this is why I love learning, is take the servant leadership type mentality in which I am so sorry. I'm so sorry.

in which I ask the developer what they need me to report on, you know, so just kind of like protecting them from the noise. What is it? What is your current problem? What is your current pain point? What is your current blocker? Talk to me. I'll report it. You just do what you do and do it well. think that's a yeah, absolutely. Spot on. It can be challenging, obviously, if there's a dick tap from.

Mark Pratt (13:46.733)
you that's not compatible with the delivery style of the team. Yeah, challenging indeed. What I'd like to do is I'd like to go back and pick up on a point you made about on the mentorship side, because I think that's like really valuable stuff to share, because I think one of the best ways to grow is through mentoring, either through becoming a mentor or finding one or ideally both. So tell us about your experience of mentoring. You mentioned like early career mentor there through that early kind of foundational stage.

You subsequently mentioned another mentor who helped you into contracting. yeah, tell us about your experience of mentoring. Mentoring is invaluable. I tried to ad hoc mentor as a result, informally mentor, but I'm actually going to give her name. her name is Dr. Chetna Mowdy, and she was the person that gave me the opportunity to be an intern.

The value of her pouring into me is something that I still, I still use her tools. So little things like she did the Myers-Briggs test just to help me. And she was like, look, there's different personalities. This is how you could work with them. So these, these little gems are like, okay, if you're more logical, if you're more on the INTJ, ENTP side, you're going to be a little more blunt in your approach. I won't take it personally.

If you're more on sensitive feeling side, you may be a bit more emotional. I don't know if that's the correct word. So say, okay, how do I navigate this relationship? That person doesn't want the bluntness. They may want a more flowery approach. So that was immense, immensely helpful teaching me how to communicate. not only the way, but the how, the formalities and how to navigate the intricate.

politics that often arise in depending on which industry but in public sector it does it does arise but giving you those intricacies on how to navigate the politics it just keeps you mindful mentorship really showed me mindfulness if that makes sense because in project management is basically relationship management

Mark Pratt (16:05.735)
Sometimes if a stakeholder is having a bad day, you're having a bad day because they don't care. So it was definitely teaching me the soft skills that was, I'd say with Dr. Chetnamode, it was the soft skills that she really honed in on for me. And I've taken that with me because I can be quite, I'm an ENTP, if that means anything to anybody. So I can be quite abrupt sometimes and she'd.

sometimes look at my emails and she'd say, you need to put some flowers on it. I'm ENTJ, so we're quite close there. So she'd be like, that reads. And I'm like, no, but I'm just giving the information. And she was like, yes, but that could read as rude. You know, so she definitely honed in the soft skills. Also how you can be perceived as a project manager, you know, because sometimes people are, here's the PM, adding a layer.

So from her, I definitely got the soft skills. And then from my other mentor, who I won't name just because I'm not, I'm not sure if she'll be okay with that, but it was more when you do your CV, one of the things she showed me was when you're a permanent, you're almost presenting as this is my potential. This is how I can grow and thrive with your organization. And she was like, you don't do that when you're, when you're a contractor.

you quantify your value so people can see exactly what it is you do. And that was a very, very pivotal thing for me. rather than saying something like, eager to learn, you know, you change that. I'm eager to learn to very quick learner. I'm able to adopt to new ways of working. am able to pick up and grasp concepts quickly. And also

with being a contractor, not being afraid to say what you've done, because I find that when I was in the space of a permanent, I was a team, we did this. And I contribute, and then she was like, no, no, but you did this, highlight what you've done, highlight what blockers you have removed. And it kind of changes how you market yourself, because rather than marketing your potential, you're marketing your immediate value. Yeah, think that's a really, really good share.

Mark Pratt (18:30.785)
that differentiation really smart. I've not actually heard it articulated like that, I've heard it articulated similarly, but that makes a lot of sense. We've got in our Pulse Vault, which is kind of our free kind of community stuff for the contract community, which you can join. You can go into the show notes, the link will be in there. Yeah, we've got a section on exactly that piece around.

what to put in a CV and how to present your kind of skills and experience. It's about your achievements and what you personally did, not what the team did, for example, how you can hit the ground running and deliver immediately sort of thing. And going backwards, because you just reminded me of something. One of the things that I was taught by Dr. Chetnamoldi, which I still do, when we were leaving, she gave us a notebook each. And she said, every time you do something significant, any time you've achieved something,

write it down and write it down in detail so you can recall it and use it as, whether it's for your CV interviews or conversations, you can actually make a clear reference to what you've done. So I actually still keep that habit every time I've achieved something, whether it's delivered a project, a major milestone, I write it down immediately so it's fresh in my mind, the detail is fresh in my mind and then that way can quickly reference it.

So yeah, keep your notebooks. And another thing is that I've learned a few years later was update your CV on a monthly basis. Because if you stay ready, you don't have to get ready. Absolutely. Absolutely. And well, I'd love to cover actually the notebook point in a little bit more detail because that's just a really like smashing idea about,

everyone could like not long ago, yeah, that's a great idea, but I very few of us will actually do it. well, I also feel intrigued to ask you what, you know, what are some of the highlights in the notebook? Have you got some highlights you'd like to pick out? Yeah, I've got loads of highlights because I've spent 12 years now. So now I can actually, because I'm always writing, I can record them because it sticks in your memory when you write it down.

Mark Pratt (20:50.505)
So for example, I was able to deliver a force project. That was one of my first projects, delivering a learning book for people that work in care homes, for care home workers and nurses on for prevention. And delivering that was, it made my heart warm to see, to see people say, I've really learned from that. Or I know how to handle this situation now. It was like, wow, I've actually helped get that over the line.

And then being able to get overruns for directors. One of my proudest moments was a immense milestone. There was a failing project and I got all the low level and high level designs signed off to the point that the organization had their first milestone payout after the project was failing. And my manager at the time said to me, without you it wouldn't have been possible.

and I write those stuff down and going back to that again, not only do I write them down if someone's written something about me, an email or a congratulations, I save them because sometimes pressure management isn't a walk in the park and sometimes you'll question yourself and your own ability and you have to remind yourself, especially when imposter syndrome kicks in.

that no, you're actually good at this. So I'll go back and check not only the notebooks to see what I've achieved, but to check what people have just said about me without me asking. And then it will help build me back up. I think that's a really smart thing to do and something that a lot of people could benefit from. then going to the CV point about keeping it constantly updated, obviously, when you work into in freelance contracts, whatever brand of temporary work that you or service that you provide.

You know things can and do change quite quickly. So having that up to date CV ready to go is a really smart thing as well. I think coming up, putting those two things together, one of the things that we as powers and you mentioned it yourself just earlier about how you kind of market yourself and present yourself to the market. Being market ready, your testimonials, feedback, notebook of good stuff, whatever you want to.

Mark Pratt (23:13.373)
referred to it as and a market ready CV would put you in the, know, upper echelons of people who are marketing themselves. So yeah, both really, really smart tips. Thanks for sharing those, Christina. So that's great. yeah, so back to the mentoring then about the lady that helped you kind of into contracting. Tell us about that journey because, you know, there'll be people listening that were about

thinking about making that leap. There'll be also people who have made that leap and perhaps doubting it, obviously market challenges and perhaps still be contemplating taking another permanent role or perhaps accepting something that's suboptimal. So yeah, do you want to share with us that journey and things that you look at? Hey, so the way that actually started was through LinkedIn. So I was relocating to another city and I thought,

I applied for a role and I had an interview and I said, I want to learn more about the organization. So when I linked in, typed in the role I was going to be interviewing for, found someone, reached out to her and was like, Hey, I'm interviewing for this company. Do you mind giving me some information? How is the company? What is it like to work for? Do you have any tips for me? And she was so open and welcoming. And that's why I always say to people, LinkedIn is an invaluable tool.

She gave me her phone number and she was like, just give me a call. And we had a call. She gave me tips. She gave me guidance. She gave me info and I got the role. And then that's when I found out after discussing with that she was actually a contractor. So I was applying for a permanent role and I hadn't quite understood at that time because it was quite early in my career that the difference is really between contracts and permanent.

And then that's how she took me under her wing. think, not to sound arrogant, she liked the tenacity that I was just willing to reach out. And likewise, I'm the same. When I see someone reach out and say, you really want to do this? I'm happy to give you what I know. I'd also say that one of the tips she gave me, I didn't follow it. I really should have.

Mark Pratt (25:32.813)
was have some money behind you before you go into contracting. So she said she put some money behind her and went contracting and she was like, if it fails, it's okay, I have a buffer. I didn't do that. Well, I highly recommend it. So yeah, that's how I got through to her and building that relationship with her was through just reaching out on LinkedIn. And it's true that people do want to tell their story and it's not

It's not because people, I wouldn't say it's because they're arrogant or anything. It's just that people have a story to tell. So when you need help and advice, sometimes reaching out on a platform like LinkedIn to those people, they want to not only tell you their story, but they do want to genuinely help and not ask for anything in return. They're just helping for the sake of helping. And I'm not saying everyone's like that, but you'd be surprised. My thinking is the worst I can get is a no.

When I reach out to someone, never think, what if they don't respond? It's fine, I'll go reach out to someone else. I think that might be the most invaluable tip so far. think the way that you've articulated it, you've made it seem so simple, but so many people would have that trepidation about reaching out to people. But just stripping back what you said, because there's a few little

super valuable bits in there that people may not have thought to do or would be anxious to do. So the first one there being if you are kind of going for an interview somewhere, looking up, you know, peers, you know, other people within that organization and reaching out to them and asking for help. Yeah, absolutely. You know, what a great thing to do and shows your enthusiasm for the role as well. And again, when it comes down to differentiating yourself and

and being picked to be the person to undertake the role. That could be a differentiating piece in the fact that you've made relationships, showed interest, something like that. So that's like top belting tip number one. Try that before your next interview. I think that the second absolute belting tip, I think I, perhaps because the role I have and the people I engage with.

Mark Pratt (27:52.649)
I'm inundated all the time of people asking for something, but not help. So for example, I will get, I'm sure this is the same for others as well. I'll get many, inbound requests, kind of people just saying, I'm such and such a role. I'm coming free on such and such a date. Have you got any jobs in, know, obviously there's a bit more flowery language around it, but yeah, that's basically what they're saying. Very few people reach out and ask me for help. Being asked for help is irresistible.

know, humble a request for help. You know, I'm looking for such and such. Can you provide me with any help? Well, yeah, I can because I like helping people. It makes me feel nice. And that's the same for many others, but just kind of banging into me. Can you do this for me? It's immediately kind of combative, isn't it? So I think that's absolutely top tip. Yeah, because sometimes I think people don't realize that we just, I need this. I need that. It's quite transactional. Yeah. But I think there's something about asking for help.

it's a part of, not to sound cheesy or whatever, it's a part of the human experience. Everybody needs help at some point, professionally and personally, and everybody has been at a low point and a high point professionally and personally. So oftentimes when you ask for help, that same person has asked for help at some point in their career and they can empathize with your plight, or they remember what it was like to be a fresh grad, or they remember what it was like to transition.

So everyone, that's why their story, going back to this, that's why everyone's personal story is so important because within those stories, that's where the empathy grows. That's where the understanding grows. And then that's where the impact is had. So oftentimes, sometimes as a woman in tech in particular, I'm the only woman in the room. So I try to like surround myself with other women. It could be different organizations.

in tech and then we'll share tips. How do you navigate that? Or what do you do in this situation? Because those other women too can empathize as well. And that takes away the transaction like, you know, feel of, I just need this. Do you have a job? Yeah. about I need some tips and those tips will then lead to a job. It may not be with that person.

Mark Pratt (30:16.669)
But those tips, that guidance, those gems. So I didn't get hired by the agent that was referred to me. I was hired by someone else, but it was based on the tips that I had regarding how to show value on your CV. So I wasn't asking for a job. I wasn't saying, even though she took me under her wing, I never said, could you get me a job? I did not ask for that. I asked for guidance. And then...

going on to that, feel like one of the most important things is move forward. So just as you ask for help, give help. Yeah. We definitely espouse that here at Project Partners and kind of in the Pulse community, the law of reciprocity. Give before you receive. yeah, it's kind of like you say, it's a basic of the human experience, but often people can forget about it in the heat of

trying to find a job or whatever activity they're trying to undertake, as you say, very transactional. yeah, that's another absolutely cracking tip. I'd love to move on next, we can, Christine, to your personal brand. Obviously, as you say yourself, a female in tech, you've got the experience that you've got, and you've also kind of created your business kind of brand name, Competenta.

How did you arrive at that branding and how has it helped you? sorry. I have a cold. It's January. So basically, when I first started contracting, I was under an umbrella. And I always got told I was resilient and I always got told I was efficient. had someone say, you're like a little pit bull because I'm vertically challenged.

You're like a little pitbull that you just gnaw at people until they do it. And I was like, efficient. So I was also trying to think of a brand. was like, I want a brand. Because everyone kept saying efficient and resilient. was like, OK, I want a brand that represents that. So me and my weird international relations, anthropology, loving self, languages, I started looking at different languages because I wanted a name that wasn't taken and something that I could grow. So although I was a traditional day rate contractor, I always had the vision.

Mark Pratt (32:40.365)
to expand into something else. So I wanted something that would work. And I got to the language of Esperanto. And when I typed in efficient, competenta came up and I was like, I like that. Because to the English ear, it sounds like competence, but it means efficiency. And then if my memory is correct, even in Spanish, competenta means efficiency because Esperanto is meant to be a European lingua franca.

so for, okay, that, that name represents what I want to do. I want to drive project delivery through efficiency and resilience. so I continued and still do day rate contracting. But one of the things that I noticed after nine years of doing it is I know how long certain tasks take. I know the value of certain tasks.

Why am I merely being present for the sake of it? Not to say I have a problem going on client site, I don't, but I was like, this doesn't drive me. I want to be able to sit and deliver. want to really get into the stuff that I want because after doing it for nine years, I actually realized I really liked strategy because it was always the piece that was missing. So oftentimes organizations will say,

Let's use AI, for example, because that's the in thing. wants AI. I'm like, what does that look like to you? Why do you want it? What is the outcome of having this AI? Is it going to drive efficiency? Is it going to make your team work faster? Is it even relevant to that department? Because, you know, it may not be relevant. What is your purpose?

take something on like a product, an output. Don't just take it on because it's a sexy word or it's the in thing. How does it work for your organization? How does it work for your industry? Where is everyone else going? Is there room for innovation? Have you seen a gap that people just keep missing? And I feel like sometimes when these projects come into fruition and they ask for a delivery team, they haven't done that prior.

Mark Pratt (35:02.549)
work. So for me it was like no I want to focus on this. I want to focus on the strategy. I want to focus on the roadmaps because if there's clarity there it falls down if that makes sense it falls down into the organization but if there's not clarity at the top how can you expect clarity at the bottom so to speak. So then I wanted to focus more on that and

after being with the C-suite in one of my last few previous roles, I got to really enjoy how organizations operate, like the intricacies, what they're looking for, and then again, how that feeds into the strategy, and then the strategy builds the projects. The projects deliver the strategy. So no matter what, it's like they're intrinsically linked. So was like, I want to focus more on that, and that's where I can add

value, if I can give clarity and definition, then it actually helps. Not only the client, it helps me because we can then use the strategy as the anchor, the single source of truth. It helps the delivery teams make decisions without having to go to the sponsors or execs because they can say, wait, but is this actually aligning with the objective? Is this thing that I'm about to do? Does that, does that,

I don't know. Does that help with the 20 % increase in revenue? For example, throwing something out there. Does that help with that? And then it actually empowers the teams. No, this is what I want to be in. This is the space I want to be in. Defining clarity and delivery, but I cannot deliver without the clarity. Absolutely right. I'm just going to take a moment to, this would be better if you're watching this on video rather than audio.

This is our A, B, way if you can see that. So that's our project management methodology. And the very first part of it, the A, is about AIM. A stands for AIM. And the very first part of that is called Hypothesis. And it's about starting with Y. So few projects start with Y. So it's really lovely to hear you kind of passionately talk about kind of strategy and project teams understanding the Y.

Mark Pratt (37:25.773)
helps grease the wheels of progress. Very few people respond well to just being told what to do. lot of people, know, really you need to understand why we're doing it. So when questions, queries, issues come up, at least if people have got the understanding of the why, they know the direction that we're trying to get to. Then we know what the business objective is. We know what problem we're trying to solve. We're not just aware of the solution, but we're actually aware of the problem. And so...

when as a sponsor, as somebody perhaps senior in the organization, if you have that information, you're more able and more empowered to go back to them perhaps with a potential solution to the problem rather than just kind of throwing a roadblock at them. So I'm very passionate about that too. So what are the things like if you have a strategy and you can quantify it, then you can measure it and then you can truly measure the success of the project.

So it always goes back to that root point of having an understanding of your why and not necessarily being fascinated with the buzzwords, but really sitting down and understanding what the future looks like and the future. Because oftentimes I feel like people, organizations, they're reactive, they're not proactive, and it's quite knee-jerk.

So they may pick a solution because, we just need to do it now. And it's like, okay, but what does that look like in the future? Are you going to have to redo the solution? Because if so, you're working twice. Why, like that's not driving efficiency in real terms, because you're going to have to redo it. What's that going to look like for your customer base? You know, like these, these questions need to be really thought of. So if you understand that, why are you doing it? And then you're measuring that why.

then you can objectively step back and track the progress and track the success. Because once you understand the why and you've quantified it, you literally understand, you're defining what success looks like. Yeah. We are singing from the same hymn sheet there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Pratt (39:54.529)
don't take the time to do that or feel that it's a blocker to progress. I've had a recent experience last, just prior to the Christmas break, where a client was like not very happy at all with us wanting to drag them back to explain the why before we, you can you just get on and do it was really what they were saying to us. Not really until we've understood the why, because I know we'll fail.

Most projects fail at the beginning in my opinion. What happens is the failure doesn't manifest until X weeks, months, millions of pounds down the line, but the problem was created at the beginning because they didn't take the time to write down and understand the why. why do you think, what do you think drives that sort of behavior in so many different organizations and people? The word that we all get tired of, silos.

I've observed that silos are everywhere right up to the C-suite. And oftentimes people are the kings or queens of their own castle and they don't necessarily move as a unit. Rather than moving as an apartment complex, they're all moving like detached houses that are far from each other. So they're not really looking at

All right, what I do as a COO may impact the CTO, may impact the CFO, and then it trickles down into their verticals. So oftentimes people are looking at themselves or their, not themselves, but their department. And they're not necessarily looking at it holistically. They're not moving as a unit. That is my observation. So sometimes.

One person doesn't even know what's going on or why it's going on. this is the first time I'm hearing about this. Like, so it's like, clearly you guys haven't sat down together and spoke properly and come up with something. It's like people just sitting in silos saying, this will be good. And then someone else saying, this will be good. And then it fragments and then it keeps fragmenting and it's almost like breaking a piece of glass multiple times. So it dropped on the floor once.

Mark Pratt (42:20.917)
So when I was picked it up and then threw it on the floor again, and then it just keeps breaking. And I just don't think that people necessarily want, no one likes to be uncomfortable. I think having a group conversation and, organization wide conversation, you're not going to be able to please everybody. And I find that sometimes, oftentimes, maybe most times is the case of the loudest in the room. So whoever yells the most gets the most and then everyone else just kind of suffers.

for it. that's what I can't speak for everybody else but that's what I've observed. The silos fragmenting, yeah, everybody's almost in their own little world and forgetting that they are an apartment complex not a detached house. Very wise indeed I think that observation.

Let's talk about what you get out of this kind of role and way that you deliver it. both the of the project management side and the contract inside then. So what aspect of the of the role that you do gives you the most satisfaction and why? It sounds really silly, the stressful parts. I'm the person that will run a go live and be happy with it. There's something about the pressure.

like pressure makes diamonds. you know, but there's something about the like seeing the teams really pull together at that point and get stuff over the line. And then the, we did like that. It's like the buildup, the relief is it feels like you've really achieved something. And it's like the, when you get to that point, it's tangible. So all the work you were doing before you got to that point, sometimes it can feel like, am I really doing?

or you feel like fluff. But then when you go through that pressure moment when the goal life's happening and you're solving the problems and you're going through the hypercare and then it's like you see your baby come to fruition. It's just, I like that, but it could be my ENTP-ness. I like to be in loads of different places. I like to be working on loads of different things and project management is perfect for those people that.

Mark Pratt (44:45.633)
that like a bit of ambiguity. Project management is not what you go to if you want an easy, peaceful, linear life. It's what you go to, like a bit of adventure. So yeah, that's the part that gives me the joy when you get your teeth in and you're really doing that goal life piece, that particular piece there, that getting it over the line. For me, is what I do. And I like to,

I like, it might sound very weird, I like to step outside of the remit of project manager. So I'm happy to get my hands dirty, so to speak. So there was an organization I was in where I was a project manager and I somehow kind of ended up as a product manager at the same time, because I wanted to get my TV, I wanted to understand the product, like really understand it. How do I resolve this issue? How can, if I understand it, I can articulate it better. Yeah.

So it means that now if someone asks me, if a senior asks me or an exec, I can give them the intricacies of why it's not working rather than just saying, the developer said. Or the so-and-so said. I can actually give the context and give it life. And I think that helps you move forward because then they go, And then because I'm not a techie, but I have technical acumen, I'm able to listen to what the techies are saying.

and then like translate it into like layman's terms. This is a business analyst type skill, but then I'll be like, so this basically means, and then they're like, okay. So I like getting my hands dirty because it allows me to understand. It allows me to feed back. It also allows me to consult in a way. So when I understand it, I can sit on it. I can chew cut, so to speak, and then go, okay. So have you thought about this?

so getting beyond the project manager, like sitting amongst the devs, sitting amongst the engineers, seeing how they work, seeing what grinds their gears, seeing what the sales team said that they could do that they really can't do. That's one of them that also happens. Sales team will sell something and the developers like said that, why would you say that? And as you said, it's failed from the beginning.

Mark Pratt (47:10.315)
But because I have that understanding, I can go back and say, hey, this is why it's failing. I've been speaking to these guys. This is the pain point. So yeah, getting my hands dirty, understanding the nuances of the technology. I believe that that allows me to really deliver value and allows you to be empathetic on both ends. It allows you to be empathetic to the plight of senior leadership because you're understanding what they need.

But then it allows you to be empathetic to the engineers, the developers, the technical teams, because you understand what they need and the pain points. And not always necessarily pain points. Sometimes there's opportunities. So it could be that someone has suggested a solution, but that solution could be decommissioning soon. And then the developers could be like, well, hey, do know there's a new solution and it's future proof? And then I can be the intermediary that.

that takes it back to the teams. So yeah. I think that ability to translate between business and technology is invaluable for all the reasons that you've stated and loads of others as well. yeah, I'd absolutely agree with that. often it's a great opportunity to spot risks as well, because if you're able to kind of get into some of the tech details and...

understand what's going on, you might spot risks or as you say, opportunities that haven't translated across into what that might mean for the business. So yeah, I'd absolutely agree with that. Let's round out then Christina with what's next and challenges. what challenges are you facing right now kind of with the market or with the role or is there a particular unfulfilled ambition or

project type that you'd like to work on. What's next for you? So one of my current challenges, as everybody else will probably agree, I are 35. That's making me pivot into more fractional and value add. One of the things that I really want to get my teeth into is, and now I'm to sound like a contradiction, AI, but not in the just

Mark Pratt (49:32.897)
let's just implement AI. I want to get into empowering people to understand how it can be fully utilized. So one of the things that I enjoy in my free time is prompt engineering. I didn't know there was a word for it. My husband's a cloud security engineer and he was like prompt engineering. I is that what it's called? But I like working through the tools to get the outcomes I want.

Oftentimes, even on a local, organized, individual level, people use example chat to regurgitate, but they're not using it as a tool to give them a structure. And I think that's where the joy of it is. That's where you can save time. If you can set rules for it. for example, industry data, what would industry data look like?

Could AI help us detect risks based off previous data and points that we haven't considered? So it's not replacing your job, it's complementing your job. It's helping you work out your steps. It's helping you build out your impact assessments. It's helping you build out your risk logs. So how can we use it as an ally? How can we prompt it to get what we want out of it?

because oftentimes, particularly in project management, there's a large chunk of your time that's spent on admin. Yep. As in doing the reporting, the steer code packs and all of that. So if there was a way that you could build a template, I guess a loose framework, and then rather than rebuilding over again and again and again, obviously the information will be different depending on the organization, but the loose structure and the skeleton of what you need to do is there. So that's what I'd like.

to utilize. But at the moment, my interest, because that's what my previous client was doing, is the PTSN shutdown. I am watching that very closely as we move from analog to digital on a national infrastructure scale. And this is not some I've never worked in. I've worked in Telco, but I've never worked on that side. It's quite interesting seeing the nuances that are coming up in that.

Mark Pratt (51:58.603)
So for example, it's okay moving organizations, but what about the alarms, the lifts? That's a big risk. The lifts, the alarms, the fire surfaces, the, gosh, the medical devices. What is that going to look like? So I'm actually following that quite closely and I'd like to get into another project on that because I learned, I'm a techie at heart. Even though I'm not a techie, I enjoy tech.

So learning about the different types of digital technology and what that looks like has actually been really interesting to me. So I definitely like to do that again. But regardless of what I do, because I pride myself on being industry agnostic, as long as I'm working in technology, I don't really care about what industry, as long as I'm working with tech. I really want to go into organizations and help them.

visualize their strategies, see what it looks like. I would love to help organizations move away from outputs and focus on outcomes and reverse engineers. Don't just look at a product. The product isn't going to be the panacea. I don't know if I pronounced that right. The product is just a product. What is the outcome? What is the goal? What is the value? What is the feeling? Are you trying to increase customer satisfaction? Okay, that's the outcome. Start with that.

work backwards, don't dictate the product to drive the outcome. So yes, that's my next step. I'd like to help organizations really visualize and focus on outcomes as opposed to outputs because sometimes they're vanity metrics. It's just to say, have it. And then it dies a death and then everyone goes back to Excel and Jira. Exactly. I think your point particularly on AI and prompt engineering.

If you're not familiar with that, I'm sure many people will be, with prompt engineering is kind of the skill of basically asking the large language models like chat, GPT and others, Claude and so on, better and better and bigger, effectively quality questions so that you get better quality output, giving it more information, asking it more nuanced and detailed questions so that you get better answers out. Because if you only ask chat or Claude or any of them a basic question, you're only going to get kind of a fairly basic vanilla.

Mark Pratt (54:24.6)
robotic type, obviously written by AI response. But if you're able to ask it to, for example, act as a particular type of person, speak in a particular tone of voice, feed it with more and more information, attachments, whatever it might be, and ask it to analyze them and summarize it in a certain way, you'll be probably ahead of most of your peers in being able to engineer a prompt.

Pandora's box is not getting closed anytime soon. I don't think, not in the near term anyway, who knows what will happen in the long term, but in the near term, it's not the AI won't replace people, but people who are very good users of AI will probably replace those who are not, I would imagine. I think. It's complimentary. I don't feel threatened by AI. I feel empowered by it. I call it my assistant. Absolutely right.

And a great way to think of it and a great way to end. So, Christina, you've shared some absolutely belting tips. think we'll make a great summary for the podcast and we'll get some great clips out of it because I think you have shared some top tip bits there. Thank you on behalf of the community for sharing those. Thank you for having me and allowing me on here. I've never done anything like this before. So thank you for making it very easy. Well, you've made a cracking first attempt. So, yeah, thank you very much.

for your time and all the best for the future. Thanks, Christine. Thank you. care. Bye.