The PMO Myth: It’s Not Just Red Tape

“For me, pragmatism has to conquer everything. It's not about enforcing rules for the sake of it. A great PMO is tailored to set projects up for success—not to drown them in process.” - Sian Lewis

Summary

In this episode of the Pulse Podcast, Mark Pratt interviews Sian Lewis, a seasoned PMO delivery director, about her journey in project management. Sian shares her experiences from her early career at Barclays Bank to her current role, emphasizing the evolution of PMO practices and the importance of adaptability in managing large-scale projects. The conversation also delves into the definition of a quality PMO, the significance of mentorship, and the transferable skills within project management across various industries. In this conversation, the speakers discuss the importance of continuous learning and adapting to new technologies, particularly AI, in the field of project management. They explore the transition from traditional employment to entrepreneurship, emphasizing the need to identify market opportunities and target audiences. The discussion also highlights the significance of mentorship, authenticity in professional life, and adapting to remote work dynamics. The speakers share insights on marketing strategies for new ventures and the satisfaction derived from helping others grow in their careers.

Key Takeaways

✨ Sian's journey into project management was accidental but rewarding.
✨ Common sense is crucial in project management, yet often overlooked.
✨ Mentorship plays a vital role in professional growth.
✨ Understanding the basics is essential for project success.
✨ Learning from failures is key to personal development.
✨ The financial services industry has embraced project management practices.
✨ AI can enhance productivity but should not replace critical thinking.
✨ Entrepreneurship offers flexibility but comes with its own challenges.
✨ Identifying market needs is crucial for business success.
✨ Effective marketing strategies are key to reaching potential customers.
✨ Authenticity in professional relationships fosters trust and collaboration.

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Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:00.204)
Welcome back to the Pulse podcast, your go-to source for all things project management. I'm Mark Pratt, excited to bring you fresh perspectives on the challenges and solutions in our field. Today, we're delighted to welcome Sian Lewis, a seasoned PMO delivery director with an impressive background in IT and project management. Sian started her career at Barclays Bank and has risen through various roles, contributing to major transformations in the banking sector. In this episode, we'll explore Sian's journey,

through the evolving landscape of project management, from our initial steps in the early 90s to our pivotal role in shaping PMO practices globally. We'll delve into our experiences with major financial institutions and our innovative approach to PMO. Sian will share her expert insights on the importance of adaptability in project management, the evolution of PMO roles, and a strategic approach to managing large-scale global projects. Her tips are invaluable for anyone looking to excel in project management and PMO.

Stay tuned, subscribe to the Pulse Podcast for more episodes that shed light on the dynamic field of project management. Let's go.

Speaker 2 (01:14.744)
Sean, welcome to the Pulse Podcast, how are you?

Very well, thank you and good to be here Mark.

Thank you for taking the time to come on. So as we record this, it's early January 2025. The weather's not fantastic outside, so I hope you're wrapped up warm and you've got a cup of tea or something to guide you through the next hour at Oshan.

I've got the water. not a huge tea or coffee drinker, yeah, and also I'm trying to do Dry January as well. So we'll how far we lost.

Very good, very good. Okay, wonderful. Well, yeah, it's great to have you on. And I know we're going to have a great conversation today. Where I want to start, Sean, is kind of where I start with all the guests on this podcast. And that's kind of how you kind of got into the position that you're in today. And I don't know about you, but when I went to school, not many people said I want to be a PMO delivery director or any other shape of profession. So tell us about your journey into the profession. You're kind of...

Speaker 2 (02:12.696)
you know, early career and then how you start first getting involved with projects, what was your entry point and then perhaps your PMO journey through different roles and different organisations. Take us through that.

Yeah, and I think we're a similar age and I think again, you know, it wasn't a career option, you know, sort of thing when we were at school in university and like most people I fell into it by accident, I think. You know, so after university I joined Barclays Bank on their graduate training scheme. is...

More years ago than I care to care to admit to, know, sort of thing. But this was of early nineties, you know, sort of thing. I T and I S and we're just starting to, you know, sort of come to the fore. And as part of my master's degree, I done something called I S and I T planning. I thought, oh, I quite like the sound of that. So as part of my Barclays interviews, I said, oh, I wouldn't mind doing some stuff in the computing sorts of space. And at the time, their program was.

mainly in the business. So they said, okay, be a guinea pig, go and do. So I did, I went and I did coding, I did testing, I did systems analysis, so all aspects of projects to build up that knowledge, ending up as a project manager, then a program manager. And back in those days, my specialist is PMO,

didn't really exist as a discipline as it does today, know, sort of thing. And as a large organisation, and I have to admit for Barclays, I mean, we had great training. You know, we were properly trained in all aspects of what we needed to do. So for project management, I think they were at the forefront of quite a lot of things. There was good quality standard training, you know. And then...

Speaker 1 (04:06.862)
I said, oh, I wouldn't mind going back to this ISIT planning. I wouldn't mind getting involved in some of that. And back then we called it systems planning, know, sort of thing. So basically we had a business area that worked out what the business wanted to do. And then, okay, from an IT perspective, do we need to do to support what the business wanted to do? And we called it systems planning, which effectively today is portfolio, portfolio management, but it didn't really have that name, you know, sort of thing.

This is back in sort of mid nineties and we just, a lot of it, we just made up as we went along, you know, first principles. What is it we need to do nowadays? You've got tools, you've got processes and things like that. But back then it was, what do we need to do? And I ended up there for about five or six years in that role. And it grew from assistance planning manager to head of PMO to sort of, and I ran the global PMO for the international side of the bank, you know, running global PMO and PMOs across the globe and, know, and

These are the days when we were putting in networking. We were doing, you know, working out, right, okay, we've got processes. How do we make them more slicker? How do we put technology in, you know, sort of thing? So that's how I got in to what is called PMO these days. You know, it was more by accident. And I actually found out I enjoyed it. I preferred it to the project and program management side of things because I look at this as the power behind the throne.

you know, sort of thing, because you've got influence and you've got weight, you know, you can influence how the organization does things and actually has a way forward of actually being on the forefront of things. So I found my niche.

There's a couple of things I'd love to pick up on from there. One, guess, is a tip for probably anyone who's kind of looking to either early career or kind of looking to of enhance their career. that's, there's pros and cons to this, but the pro of joining a large organization like Barclays or a Lloyds Banking Group or one of the many other large organizations doesn't necessarily have to be a bank, but they're going to have.

Speaker 2 (06:13.518)
great internal training programs, maybe not necessarily external or paid training, but certainly the internal training disciplines they'll have around projects and program management will be exemplar and you will learn a lot. So there is a definite pro to that. And you've obviously benefited from that as I did in my career as well. Definitely something to consider if that's a gap that you're to fill.

I think the other one that you shared in common, lots of people have said to me on this podcast is about the falling into it. But I think everybody does develop a bit of disservice when you say you're falling into I say I'm into it. But what it is, is it's being aware of the opportunity you're taking it when it comes and sticking your hand up and saying yes, basically, and willing to take that risk and willing to put yourself out there. And I think that's to be commended.

Super duper. think the other bit that I think I'd love to actually pick up on and just develop the conversation a little bit further around is that first principles piece in terms of kind of inventing how PMO works around here and the same for any discipline. And I think my reflection certainly, the early part of my career I was a coder software developer and did that kind of first principles work because it just didn't some of the principles that I use.

predominantly today just didn't exist back then. It's kind of invented. So, but that kind of invention gives you such a deep foundational understanding of a subject. Certainly my experience was that anyway, that it's kind of stood me in good stead now for years and years and years and years. yeah, tell me about how you just developed that first principles piece, you know, so now people may be working with technologies like AI, for example, that, you know, it's still early, early days and, know, so.

some first principles work around that. Just talk us through what that first principles work was and how you invented how it works around here.

Speaker 1 (08:15.596)
I think, again, goes, and project and program management is common sense mainly, isn't it? You know, it's not rocket science or anything like, and then actually it's working out what is it we need to do? Yeah? How do we get there? What do we need to put into place to enable we get there on time, you know, and things like that. So for me, was just taking it right back to simple questions of, okay, we need a plan. You know, we need to understand what the risks of that plan are. You know, who do we need?

to help us deliver what skills we need to deliver and you just build the picture up like that, you know, sort of thing. And then once you've got, you know, so it's getting those basics into place. And then once you've got the basics, it's then, right, okay, next level business case, you know, okay, right, okay. It's the same old thing. We've got not enough money to do everything that everyone wants to do. How do you prioritize this work? You know, okay, we want to see

business case, this is what I want to see in a business case, you know, and again when we first started it was very basic and actually it's like with everything over time you improve, know, so it's getting something in and then continuously improving those processes, you know, okay risks, okay we've got them all on individual projects, how do I bring that together to understand the overall exposure I've got for my portfolio and things like that, so it is literally just breaking it down into those simple things.

Don't over complicate. You know, because I think that's what a lot of people do. They try to over complicate and try to do things, break it down to what is it you actually want to achieve and then how are you going to do it? And different people, no, different projects will have different ways of getting there. That's fine. As long as you agree upfront, you know, from a governance perspective, you know, what is it you can report on? And, you know, I'm quite happy for it to be different things.

As long as you agree upfront, is what you're going to do for that particular thing and everyone signed off on it.

Speaker 2 (10:15.51)
you're raising a of really good points there. think that that piece around common sense. think the interesting thing about that is common sense doesn't appear to be that common. And I think that the industry status that 70 % of projects fail. it's clearly uncommon. I think, I think what obviously, once you've had a,

multi-decade career in a discipline does become common sense. But I think the bit that you also touched on there was kind of the breaking down and the experimentation piece. literally breaking it down to it's like taking it apart, taking it apart. If you get to your lowest common denominator, you can understand and experimenting and being willing to fail and testing stuff out.

didn't get it right first time you know that's fine but as long as you learn from it you know and and I go okay and I have to most of my learning best learning has come from things I've done wrong it's like I'm not doing that again you know yeah

Of course, of course. Brilliant. So let's get into a little bit more then around PMO. PMO, and anyone listening doesn't know what that acronym stands for, stands for Project Management Office. Project Office, yeah, they don't. Double acronym. tell us in your own words, Sean, what your kind of definition of a quality PMO is. So yeah, explain to us what it means in layman's terms and then.

Program Management Office.

Speaker 2 (11:42.954)
explains what a great one would look.

So I often explain this as what it isn't, you know, sort of thing. And I think people think PMOs or project management officers or what, are policemen or the policemen of the projects, you know. Part of the role is to make sure, you know, that we are doing things right, you know, so the PMO will set governance standards, process standards and things like that, that projects and programs will need to adhere to. And I think a lot of people think of as a PMO as a very bureaucratic

Right, you've got to do X, Y and Z before I will sign off and things like that. For me, me, pragmatism has to conquer everything. It's not, you know, not process. And I think I spoke earlier before is, you know, one size does not fit all. So for me, hallmarks of a good and quality PMO is being pragmatic, but also being willing to tailor. Yeah. You know, sort of things are working through and actually

what is going to give us the best chance of success for this piece of work? Now at a project level, at a program level, and then you can roll it up into an overall portfolio level. So you can have different projects running different types of methodologies, different ways of work, whatever is best for that particular piece of work. And then you build the framework around it. Yes, it's nice to have, especially if you're doing a waterfall thing, it's nice to have gates and things like that, but not everyone's going to go through all of that. You work through

and say, actually, for this type of size and complexity of a project, we would like to see this amount of governance. This is what I'd like you to come back reporting. So for me, then, it's all about being tailored and best designed for that project to succeed. there's agile, there's waterfall. And I've worked in places where we do agile. We don't need to do any of that.

Speaker 1 (13:37.026)
Yes, you still do, but it's a different type of, you know, metrics and reporting that we'll do. You know, again, you agreed upfront, you get it agreed and then you follow that particular path.

Yeah, super. And obviously you've had the benefit through your career of working at a rather wide range of organizations. Tell us what sort of size projects, programs, portfolios would you expect would be the kind of the time to actually have a PMO? So you might be a smaller organization, might just be running one or a handful of projects and.

Perhaps a PMO set up might be overkill for that sort of size of organization. But what from your experience, what's the right time to kind of, right, we need a PMO, we need to set up a PMO.

That's a really good question, Mark. It's not something I've thought of in absolute terms, you know, sort of thing. think most of my, I spoke to my Barclays date, which is a big one, and then I did 10 years nearly contracting, you know, mainly in financial institutions. So a lot of the time a PMO was expected. I guess in smaller organizations, you need to work through and part of setting up a PMO is working through the return on investment and the value case for it, you know, sort of thing. It's actually how much

If I bring something, you know, can just be a one man band and I've done that before now, you know, it's working through actually, well, the money I've saved on putting process and having somebody there doing the chasing as it were and putting the making sure things go right. Is it worth a project going over by six months or whatever? I can't tell you an absolute because I haven't thought in that way, but I guess it's if I was an organization, I would say actually if I've got a

Speaker 1 (15:21.614)
And again, it depends on how people cost their projects. I've worked in companies that don't charge for resources and I've worked for others that do. So obviously the size and cost of a project can differ, but I guess it's around the complexity sort of thing because what I'm finding, and I don't know if you are, as people are expecting, not maybe a project manager,

professional but people from the business that are expected to do project management, know, from side of desk type of things and I've worked in those environments as well and that's where I would say it's probably key to have somebody who can have set a standard, set governance so at least people got something to follow. So I don't know if I've answered your question but I think there's things you've got to think about.

Yeah, think it's I think you have answered or you know, you've got some meat on the bones of it. think my experience from kind of the different clients that we work with is, yes, over the last, you know, five, maybe 10 years, I've seen more and more involvement in project delivery from, you know, business as usual or on the usual professional. can take all the projects and

I think you're right in that. If you know, if my day job is whatever it is, finance, HR, some other operational role, whatever it might be. And I don't have a background in project management or project delivery. And I don't know what best practice is. If there's a methodology, you know, what, what stage gates are what walls for or agile is in some of the basics around, know, project professional, you would, you would know and understand having that

centralized capability that you can go to for help, advice, structure, what do I do next, coaching, which I think is kind of where we're going with the conversation here. It might be a very, very sensible thing to do. And I think even in some quite large organizations now, I've sort of noticed that phenomena occurring. So yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (17:32.942)
PMOs can be different things, you so you have your processes, your governance, you know, something, but then you can have your centres of excellence, which are those, you know, where the mentoring and the coaching, you know, sort of come in, you know, it's a bit like project management, programme management, we're all different flavours, you know, and all, and PMOs can be of different flavours and of different services, depending on the needs of the company.

And what I'd like to kind of move us onto a little bit now is kind of some of the more interesting projects and experiences that you might have had. I think we've all got those one or two or three kind of projects or experiences under our belt that were impactful either very positively or conversely negatively. Do you want to share with us a few war stories and some of the most impactful?

So I've mentioned about, you know, sort of Barclays, I won't refer back to that. then, and then when I started contracting, Verdi, where's where you and I met, you know, sort of thing was the very first one I did proper contracting. I'd worked at Scandia, you know, sort of in a smaller PMO, but Verdi was probably the biggest program I'd ever worked on. And, you know, and I learned so much.

from, you know, before I'd been a bigger cog in a smaller wheel, I was a smaller cog in a bigger wheel, but I learned so much as how a big program is set up. You know, the complexities, the discipline that's required, you know, in order to keep it on track, you know, I think it's the only program I've ever worked on where we did weekly reporting and it was very fast paced and it was like, like that all the time and you just had to be on it.

You know, and there was no room for slackers. There was nothing so I learned an awful lot about discipline how you go about running a program of fat size and complexity, which I hadn't come across before You know, so I think that was a huge learning curve for me and I was there for just two two and a half years I don't know how long you were there for a bit longer. I think you know, but

Speaker 2 (19:34.318)
Yeah, think just to explain to those that might not have heard of the program. So Verdi was the program after the financial crisis 2007-08 Lloyds Banking Group purchased Halifax Bank of Scotland. It was an integration project to bring those brands together under one roof. But because of the state aid that was taken, European Union mandated that

Lloyds Banking Group needed to carve part of itself back out. And that's how TSB Bank was relaunched onto the high street in, I think it was 2013. And yes, there was a number of different streams of that project program. I remember fondly Streams C, D, and E. Stream E, I was the program director for around the whole thing. Stream C, was a project manager and a program manager in part of the overall.

program and that, you know, I certainly learned an awful lot on that journey which culminated in running the whole thing at the end. yeah, the two or three years prior to me kind of taking over that streaming role were where I learned kind of probably my best learning career in terms of how I

I agree. I left just after Dee had finished, you know, sort of thing. So I didn't do E, but yeah, I'm with you. The way that that was managed was just...

It was just joy to what, you know, it wasn't a joy to work on sometimes, but it was a joy to watch and learn from it, you know, sort of thing. And I took that learning then into, you know, into future roles. And I guess then my next one I'll talk about is when I actually, I went back permanent. So I'd been permanent, then I went contracting, and then I actually went back permanent again because the right role came up. And I worked then for Nats, which is the air traffic services, which is, I live down on the south coast of England and they had

Speaker 1 (21:31.662)
quarters is literally 10 minutes up the road. So I always said if the right permanent role came along, then I would be a fool not to at least try for it. And that again was a, you know, it wasn't, it was a large portfolio, you know, sort of a 1.5 billion, you know, portfolio of delivering various different types of projects, you know, what you call the sticks and bricks, the radar towers and things like that, and the stuff that's on the airports, but also

bit like, you know, lots of financial systems was moving off legacy systems onto the newer, you know, newer technology in the clouds and stuff like that. that was a step up again, I was going back to being head of, but had been at Barclays, so took on a large team. And for me, then the learning wasn't around the technical side of things. It was more about the people management.

And then how do you lead a team? You know, I a hundred, over a hundred people. You know, how do I motivate people? How do I get them, you know, sort of in the right place? So for me, it was then more about the personal side of things rather than the technical side.

Yeah, agreed. And I think one of the elements I'd love to explore is around transferable skills between industries. And I guess maybe share a different view or sorry, have a different view or share the same view. The PNO as a capability is probably one of the most transferable skills where it doesn't really matter whether you are in a, my mind anyway, in a financial services business or a

air traffic control or in retail or in public sector or whatever, the discipline of having the correct governance and the correct size processes and everything else is very, very, transferable. How have you found that? Do you find that many of the roles that you get involved with or go for are requiring industry specific experience or do you find it more industry agnostic in a PMA role? Talk us through that.

Speaker 1 (23:37.612)
thoughts are the same as yours. I think the skill isn't applying your technical skills to that particular context. I think up until about two or three years ago, I think the recruiting industry thought that. what I'm finding more and more is people are asking for specific industry experience, which does frustrate me. Because actually, you're right. I think the PMO

skill set can be put anywhere, you know, because we're not down in the nitty gritty of understanding requirements and, you know, things like that. We're just making sure that the right things are being done. I don't need to know the details, but why I'm finding now, and it seems to be a trend, is that recruitment and obviously that comes from their end clients are asking for that industry specific experience.

I think my view on that is kind of based around kind of where we are kind of economically in supply and demand and because the supply of resources is basically the demand at the moment, that's just where we are in economic cycle. I think clients can be more choosy or think they can be more choosy to get, you know, I need one of these that's had this and that and the other experience which may or may not be the right outcome for the role that is what it would be.

mandated, I definitely see that. I don't think it's right, know, hiring, clearing the resources.

At the moment, isn't it, Mark, sort of thing? it just... Because I've gone from finance, I've done transport, I've done ferries, I've done energy, sort of thing. So I moved around pharmaceuticals, I've moved around the sectors. And yes, it's a steep learning curve, but you've got experts in the business who you just go and ask questions of. So for me, that's easiest way to do it.

Speaker 2 (25:39.052)
And having had that kind of broad, you know, number of different sectors experience, I guess has given you a very, very rounded understanding of how different capabilities can work in different industries. you know, is there any particular industry that's a standout that kind of, you know, a of a sore thumb in terms of how it works? Or would you say it's just consistent across all?

No, and I think I go back to what I said before, think the financial services industry, I think maybe made out of necessity seems to have embraced, you know, sort of project management program and change as a thing quite enthusiastically and obviously from some time ago. I think other industries are playing catch up. I've gone into some and I'm quite surprised at how immature, you know, some of their setups are. And, you you think

And actually, you think, actually as a company, they look quite proficient, but actually under the surface, it isn't. And so I have been quite surprised. not going to mention any names or anything like that, but I'm quite surprised at the disconnect and the amount of work and effort you've got to put in just to get a basic understanding of, so those are the projects you've got on at this moment in time. There's no central, you know.

you know, what am I looking for, those central data. So part of my role is to try to get that information flowing through. So at least I've got something I can work with to give the exec some details.

I couldn't possibly comment. love all my clients equally and daily, yes, some are more further along the advancement curve than others. that's, I guess, I agree with what you've just said 100 % there. think let's move on then at pace and then let's get into kind of mentorship and growth and always an interesting area to get into. So one of kind of, I guess, the best ways certainly that I've experienced to grow is through mentoring, either by being a mentor or having a mentor.

Speaker 2 (27:37.484)
What's your experience of mentoring? you had the opportunity to beam on or have one or formally or informally? Tell us about your experience and how you've grown through that.

And again, I think that goes back to the maturity of the organization and how they see development and things like that. I've mentioned Barclays in the past. I had a great mentor there, who I could go to for anything and just challenged me. Good mentorship, you don't provide answers, you ask questions. So you get your mentee to work it through what's for them.

So I had a great one there and then I also became part of their mentee program. And again, we got training on how best to do it because I think in some summer companies I've been in, you just get, yeah, you'll be a mentor. Yeah, but nothing behind it. And actually, I think it's quite key that you need to understand the way it works, the boundaries and how you can best help.

You know, think obviously I've got my industry experience. I've got my PMO experience. I was a mentor and coach to more junior people. But then I think what actually sometimes is best is when you're actually mentoring somebody outside of your own discipline, because then you've it challenges you as a mentor as well, because you can't just rely on your own knowledge and experience. have to really probe and get the right questions and understand exactly what that person wants.

to get out of any session. So setting objectives, setting, trying to understand what outcomes can be as well, it also helps.

Speaker 2 (29:19.374)
I agree. I think the other thing I would share from a mentor perspective, I've been very lucky I've had some great mentors. I know I've mentored a lot of people informally and informally. And I think one of the greatest benefits I've received is in being a mentor actually embeds and solidifies and enhances your own knowledge. Because when you've got to play back that knowledge to somebody else that you've learned over X amount of time.

having to articulate it and frame it in a way that somebody else can understand, even though you know it in your own mind, definitely enhances your own knowledge and learning. That's a point. That's something I've found extremely useful in this. Yeah.

But I also find I enjoy it, know, sort of thing, you know, it's for me the greatest enjoyments and pleasures are actually seeing people develop and move on, you know, and then you see someone who's come in is quite timid and shy and new and then you just see them blossom and you see them grow and it, you know, you go fly and it's just, it's a lovely thing to, it's so rewarding.

I would agree with that and I highly recommend even if it's informal, if you're not in an organization that has those formal mentor mentee programs, reach out, help, all this incredibly rewarding experience and helps you grow as well. I think as well, even though, know, oodles of experience as we've already kind of covered, I think every day is a school day. You never stop learning throughout your whole career.

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (30:53.966)
How today, know, coming up today, how do you continue to kind of develop your skills and stay current in the industry and see how things are changing? And so what, what, what are you, how are you enhancing your, your, your knowledge and skills?

continuous learning, you know, sort of thing. I've always believed in continuous improvement, you know, sort of thing. So it's keeping an eye out for what's coming next. mean, AI at the moment, isn't it, is the thing. I'm, anyone who knows me, I'm not very technically adept, but even I can get onto chat GPT and, know, and using Gamma to help me do my presentations and things like that, because it takes the drudgery out of you. I'm not saying it takes over everything, because I think you still need

that common sense, that sense check type thing, because you've got to make sure it's still, you know, is what's the word I'm looking for is it still makes sense to people, you know, but I think it takes away a lot of that drudgery of stuff that frees you up to do value added stuff. So for me, it's always continuously improving. I know moving on from from what I've before, and I'm now setting up my own company to offer sort of coaching, mentoring courses to project managers and PMO.

so I'm learning marketing, videos, podcasts, you know, all this new stuff. To me it is, I know it's not new to everybody, but news, new ways of working, new ways of getting information across. You can't stand still if you, you know, if you stand still, you're dead. You know, you, you're not relevant anymore. And even though I'm of an age where I'm not the youngsters, you know, the youngsters coming through are so more technically able.

You know, they can do videos and reels and things like which I'm just learning now, you know, but, but you've got to stay relevant. And if you want to be seen as somebody, you know, who's an expert in their industry and things like that, you, you've got to move on. You've got to stay, stay relevant and up to date.

Speaker 2 (32:57.944)
I would love to get into a little more detail on your business. We're going to go there in a second because it's going to be fascinating for a lot of people, think, because I think there'll be a lot of people in similar situations thinking about doing the same thing. think having that, sharing that journey is going to be really interesting. Before we do, I'd just like to just take us back to kind of the AI piece, because I think that's really interesting, particularly, I think right now you're bang on. think it's a tool.

that if you use it as an assistant can take some of the drudgery, it's a great way to describe it and give you a first raft of stuff without you to kind of spend hours with a black piece of paper. But it's certainly by no means, even if you get very competent at prompting right now, it's definitely not the finished article. do you have any thoughts that you would want to share on where you see the technology developing and where that might then take people and where...

Perhaps people should be focusing their own learning on enhancing their skills. So as the tech improves, it's not kind of taking away what makes you a valuable resource.

No, and I think then it takes away the doing type of things. But it doesn't mean you can't stop thinking. was actually, can, know, PPM tools, which are project program management tools, can bring all the data. But A, data is no good if it's not right.

You know, of thing, so you still need to make sure that the data is right. You've still got to understand what that data is telling you. know, messaging now, okay, technology can do some of that, but actually it's making that relevant and real. know, I think people still will need to have those skills within analytical skills. It's that sort of skill set which I think will become more and more important because actually what does that tell me for my business? Okay, I'm hearing this.

Speaker 1 (34:56.27)
What do we need to do with this to move us forward? So I think if you're at spreadsheets and things like that, think AI probably can do a lot of that going forward and putting presentations and things together. For me, then it's what you do with what you're given. so it's that analytical, intelligent stuff that I think will start to take more around focus.

Yeah, I think the I've shared these thoughts before and this is just my thinking at this moment in time, I'm sure it will evolve but I don't think in the certainly the medium term AI is going to take away some of the roles that we have but I think people who are able to

effectively use AI will start to replace those who aren't and who don't embrace the technology. So for sure, will be getting on the, how do I leverage this new technology to help me do my work and get on the bus and start to embrace it, would be my advice to anyone. Let's move into the new business then, because that's really exciting. And I know that, I think there's a few things that are coming together that are

of getting a lot of people into this sort of mindset. And I think the culmination of kind of the economic environment, however, your opinion of average goals, COVID, Brexit, IR35, blah, blah, blah, all these kinds of culmination of things kind of coming together. IR35 as well separately being a driver of, know, kind of the way that I guess a lot of people used to contract outside IR35 through limited companies, personal service companies, lot of those opportunities are.

are going away because of people, larger clients, choosing not to engage in that way any longer. And I think people are more and more waking up with the advancement of technology to the ability to exchange their value for money, rather than their time for money. So moving more away from kind of the Victorian era, you know, come in and do a day's work and get X hundred pounds.

Speaker 2 (37:09.55)
finished to here is a valuable piece of IP that I have developed. Here is a deliverable that has a return on investment that I can provide to you. What's the value exchange? So I think all of those things are driving these thoughts in many, many people, fractional consultancy, small businesses, micro consultancies, however, so you frame it. Let's start at the beginning then. So what is it that drove you to want to do

this thing as a business, us your thought process.

a of things, sort of thing when I finished my last contract last April, May time, and I thought the beauty about contracting is you can take time off. thought I'll take the summer off, sort of thing, because I've got time to enjoy and stuff like that. And then when I came to look again, sort of August, September time, I think the whole market seemed to have changed, sort of thing. Now, maybe because I hadn't been looking beforehand, it might have been a, but.

I could see that the number of jobs out there weren't as many, the rates weren't as great, sort of thing became more of a buyer's market than sort of for a contractor trying to find a role. And also, because I've been working at the sort of the director level, heads off level, those roles are very few and far between sort of thing, and then not a lot of them go into the contractor market, a lot of those are permanent. So.

mixture of that and then so thought that's okay I'll go back down to being a PMO manager you know sort of thing and look around for that but because I've been working at a higher level it was perceived that I was too overqualified you know overqualified for those roles you know we can argue the semantics about that but that was the perception you know the fact that I could do that role but you know I totally understand where they're coming from so it's a mixture of that and also you know I'm of an age where I

Speaker 1 (39:09.1)
I wonder if want to retire in the next sort of five to 10 years, know, sort of, unless, you know, what could I do that can make a difference? What can I do for me that I'm not working all the hours, you know, whatever. And so, you know, you mentioned fraction consultancy. So I started up trying to doing some of that, you know, so the fractional is you're not doing a full-time role. You're just doing one or two days here and there to help smaller companies. So I did some of that last year. I got asked to help get involved in

putting a bid in for a piece of work and stuff like that. pieces of work that I hadn't quite done before. And when I sat down and really thought about what I wanted to do, what brought me joy, it was actually what we talked about coaching, mentoring, developing. And I don't know if you found this, Mark, but I find that, you know, I think because a lot of project managers are not the professionals, they are people who are in the business being asked to do that.

They don't have the skill set. don't have what I call Project Management 101. How do you put a plan together? How do you put a budget together? know, how do you put a resource, you know, sort of profile together? So I've come up with the idea of providing those sort of courses, you know, sort of online courses for people who can dip in and out to help them improve their project management skills. And then also from a PMO perspective, exactly the same. But I've also gone and got my coaching qualifications.

from the PMO Global Institutes. So I'm now certified to teach their PMO training courses. sort of online coaching, we've got fractional consultancy and then we've got bespoke certified training courses. With all within the PM, PMO space, that's what I'm looking to do now.

Okay, so you kind of described a little bit there your why and then you start to get into the kind of products and services that you offer. So what I wanted to try and explore to try and help others understand that, well, how might I do something similar in my field? yeah, is that where you started? You started with, I'm gonna start with this is the product, this is the service that I'm going to provide to the market. Or did you start?

Speaker 2 (41:23.84)
elsewhere with kind of the structure of the business and how you may take the product to market who the customer was. Have you done any of that and like explore that?

Yes, I have, as I said, all these new skills I'm trying to learn, you know, sort of thing. for me, yes, first of all, it was an idea, you know, and then it was like, this work? So a lot of research to see what was out there, what was, you know, sort of available. Would I be just another, you know, person in this pond? And, you know, so trying to understand what the niche could be, you know, and there's quite a lot of what I call project management stuff out there, but not so much around the PMO.

you know, sort of thing because PMOs, it's got a, you and I both know the value of a PMO, but I think a lot of people just see it as either the Secretariat or just the admin function, rather than actually enable us of making sure that the gross projects can deliver. You know, so for me, it was more around that sort of thing and trying to understand, okay, because there aren't,

training courses, the House of PMO do a few courses on that, but there's nothing else out there for PMO. And so for me, it was more around the basics. Right. If you want to start, this is how you'd go about doing it. So that's how I've started to develop. I've got a playbook from 30 odd years of doing this, you know, but it's a question of then of how do you break it down into small enough chunks that are consumable, you know, within an hour or two hours rather than

10 days of going through, which you no one's going to do. You want to dip in and out, you know, so that's what we're trying to do.

Speaker 2 (43:08.814)
Okay, brilliant. So, and it sounds like you're relatively early on your journey. So some of the questions that I ask you now, you may or may not have in place. That's kind of, that's cool. Cause you know, we're early on the journey here, but yeah, tell us a little bit about, do you know who you're kind of, for example, your target customers, do know who you're going to be targeting with these products and services to help people understand how you've gone through that thought process. let's start with the target audience. Who are you, who are you going to be after?

There's two distinct target audiences. And one can be split down into two. So basically, the overall arching thing is to help improve PM and PMO capability for individuals and for small medium businesses. So for the individuals, that could be people who already in the industry who want to then move on in their career, you know, sort of thing, so we can give them coaching and mentoring and courses to help them move up.

So say, take example, risk management, know, there'll be a beginner and then, you know, sort of more advanced courses as you move on up. And then there'll be people who are thinking about trying to get in into project management and PMO because if Gartner, I believe, was it last year saying that we're now moving into a change economy rather than an operational economy. So I see, you know, there's going to be a requirement for more and more people with these skill sets, you know, so.

Again, for people who've never done it before, come and have a dabble. See, we can teach you the basics. I went right back to those first principles basics to see if actually it's something they want to do. And when I was at Nats, we created, because Nats is very technical, what we found out, we couldn't find enough technical planners. So we created our own zero to hero planning course. And so we're to try and take some of that and put it out as well.

For those kind of people, need to have a certain aptitudes. There'll be a test beforehand because there isn't much point people do in it if you don't have the right mindset. know, because, know, it's not much very good if you work in pictures and you're very design creative, but this is all very logical and very, you know, process driven. So that's what that's going to be the next step to do as well is try to address the planning side of things, because there aren't any credited courses out there unless you go to the APM and they're

Speaker 1 (45:32.482)
quite high level, you've got to have some quite experience before you can go and do those courses. So that's what we're trying to work through. So target those people who A, have got no understanding of it or B, who want to improve their career. And then the other side of that is for the businesses. We can offer a fractional consultancy, know, or project management PMO as service.

Okay, I understand, I understand. And yeah, tell us next then how or where you're up to in your kind of progress in terms of how you are kind of taking that to market. So which marketing channels, which approaches, how you're thinking about how you'll reach those people, get in front of those people to tell them that you.

So using LinkedIn, using LinkedIn, I think as the main sort of channel. And ironically, because we're scheduled today, actually put that, you know, it wasn't planned. I'd actually put my we're open for business actually on LinkedIn today, you know, sort of thing. So just building the website, we've got got the content for the courses. It's just a question now of transferring them onto onto video and things like that. So I think over the course of the next month, we'll have everything there.

We'll see. But I'm also then, as I said, trying to understand what I've got to do to market this. Who do I see? And that's what I'm trying now to understand. I said, you've got the target audiences. I've learned an awful lot about LinkedIn and how it works. And then, you and I'm matching you've done the same with your business and then what you can do behind the scenes to do that. So that's going to be the next thing. So the marketing campaign will start probably not next week, the weekend, the week after.

Okay. And we talked before about kind of mentoring. We talked about it in the context of kind of the piano profession. Have you sought out any mentorship around kind of the business creation and the marketing pieces that you've sought out? Where have you gained that knowledge and skills from?

Speaker 1 (47:24.794)
So a couple of places, there's a free session every Wednesday called LinkedIn for Breakfast. I don't know if you've heard of that, but that's helped me an awful lot in terms of actually understanding how LinkedIn works. And I've actually reached out to the person who runs that, who I've got some mentorship with him. And then I've also worked for the Female Entrepreneur Association, sort of thing, again, working through. again, they've set out their...

courses very nicely and this is what you need to do for this and this is what you need to do for that type thing. So because I'm not an expert in this at all, know, it's like with everything I could learn it was going to take me, you know, take me years. Let's go and get expert knowledge and help from the people who've done it.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. think I've not mentioned this before on the podcast, but I'm a member of something called the Entrepreneur Circle.

Yes, I've heard of those. Yes, I haven't. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, and I'm pretty friendly with the guy that runs the business, a called Matthew Botter. He's a big mentor for me. I personally do his mastermind level coaching, so kind of the premium sort of package, and I've found that immensely valuable. And I'm like 10 years now into my kind of full-on business kind of ownership kind of part of my career.

Speaker 1 (48:25.87)
Yeah

Speaker 2 (48:49.932)
post-project management and I'm still learning now, even though I've grown a decent size, know, a million pound business, there is an awful lot to learn. And yeah, I think it's not to be taken lightly. What I would say to anyone who's thinking about kind of going on this journey, whatever size business that you want to create, you know, if you think about the number of years experience that you've had to get yourself to where you are in your particular profession.

PMO, project management, development, whatever your skill and niche is. Think about, you're gonna go on the same journey again to learn how to be a business owner. It's a huge piece of learning and yeah, it's certainly not trivial. Like the discipline of marketing and sales, financial acumen, okay, everybody can add up, but getting into the, you know.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:42.136)
the nuances of profit and loss and cash flow management and all of these different things that you've got to be all over if you want to be a successful business owner. I think it's something like 90 % of businesses don't last five years. We're luckily over that hurdle now. I think if we go to 10, we might have a real chance. yeah, it's, lots more businesses fail. even if you've got a great product, if people don't know about it and aren't buying it, then you haven't got it.

Exactly. It's been a huge learning curve. It's been very enjoyable, know, sort of thing, completely different set of skills and things like that, you know. So I might come and ask you for some advice late afterwards, Mark, but I'm looking forward to the journey.

door is always open. And yeah, the journey, the learning journey as well as kind of, yeah, I'll be fully transparent because a lot of stress that can come along with it on circumstances that you expose yourself to. But yeah, it's also incredibly fulfilling and I've learned so much. personally feel that I got to a place in, know, I've run some very, very large programs and projects and I just wasn't, even though was very capable, I think, it. I people would think that of me.

It started just to not lose its shine because I wasn't learning anything anymore once you've huge projects.

Yeah, it's the same, it? know, slightly different challenge, but it's the same adaptations. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:10.606)
So yeah, as Sean and I have just discussed there, if anybody is interested in going on that business journey, wants to know more about the journey that I've been on, the entrepreneur, do drop me a line and I'll be happy to share information. Okay, so let's go on now then to kind of your kind of personal insights and reflection on your career. So.

You've of already touched on this. think you've already answered it. I'll get into it a little bit more. The thing that gives you the most satisfaction and you've mentioned it's the kind of the mentorship. In your reflections, have you managed to pinpoint what it is about that that kind of gives you the satisfaction? What process did you go through to gain that realization if people had...

searching around a little bit for what is my thing, where do I take the enjoyment, can't quite pin it down, did you take a structured approach, was it just kind of a walk on the beach one day or whatever, know, equivalent, me, how did you reach that conclusion?

I haven't thought of it like that before, but I think it goes down to its people, you know, sort of thing. mean, I think we spend a lot of time working, you know, and actually you've got to enjoy it. You know, I can't imagine not waking up in the morning, you know, or if I do and I go, don't go to work, then I know it's time to move on, you know, because actually the enjoyment's gone. And I think it's not the...

It's the people that keep you there, you know, sort of thing. So it's the camaraderie, it's the relationships you form, you know, because actually you, and then people form the teams as well. So it's the teams that you build and you work with that give you that joy. And I think, and I think I mentioned before, it's, for me, it's then bringing somebody along that journey with me.

Speaker 1 (53:01.902)
which I do find as just so rewarding. But I think without people, and I've walked away from jobs where I'm not happy with, and I need to work with somebody I can respect and I want to work with, when I've got a bad manager, I've walked away because you can't, and the job might be fantastic, but it's actually, your boss is an idiot, sort of thing. And I've never wanted to be that. I've always wanted to be the per...

I want to be able to manage people so I can be approachable. They can come and talk to me, they haven't got a problem. I don't want to be feared or anything like that because that's the old way of doing things. For me, it's that old servant leader type thing. And for me, if I can get the team working and working in a way that they don't need me, sort of thing, brilliant. That's the way. So again,

It goes back to people and I think that's what drives me rather than the actual company or anything like that. It's the team and what we're capable of.

Yeah, I think just to explore that theme a little further, because I do think people are kind of, you know, in various different places, that's after the massive kind of disruption that kind of COVID brought to the way that we work together, you know, the virtualization and remote nature that some of roles have taken.

Prior to that, particularly my experiences, know, many, you know, lots of time on the phone and things like this, but it has probably diminished the personal interaction that we have, you know, broadly, you know, I know that will be different for different people in different environments, how have you, as a very much people oriented person, someone who takes joy out of that personal interaction, how have you found that transition and how have you adjusted and what adjustments have you had to make to your work in patterns or styles to make sure that you're still.

Speaker 2 (54:57.29)
able to derive that personal satisfaction from perhaps less face-to-face interaction.

Well, I think the fact that we had Teams and Zoom and things like that made a big difference because as you say, the old bat phones we used to have in the offices and things like that. You know, for me, I love to see people's faces and reactions because verbal signs are much easier to pick up on there and things like that. So for me, I started a new contract in the middle of COVID, you know, sort of thing, and I didn't go into the office for four months.

So, but you know, you just got to be yourself, I think, you know, sort of thing. And as long as you can speak to people and you can build, you can build a relationship up. Okay, we can't go down the, you know, maybe it's the old culture of going down the pub after, after a day's work, you know, when you get to know people, but you can still do it over the, over Zoom or Teams or whatever. It's just, you've got to put a little bit more effort into it, you know, sort of thing. But for me, then it's making sure you've got your cameras on, you know.

nothing worse than when you're presenting and I remember when I was with the police doing a presentation to the IT exec for the police and there was no cameras on whatsoever so you've got nothing back and I have to admit I do like having feedback even if it's verbal because it gives you I am doing it right or actually I'm seeing signs that this is not quite what they're listening to so I think you can do it.

You know, and I think now we're post COVID. It's a mixture of both, isn't it? You know, sort of thing. in, you know, this enables us to be more flexible. You know, we can work from home more, you know, 30 days. I live in Portsmouth on the train every morning at half past six to get into London. I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore. But for special occasions and especially for workshops and, you know, for planning meetings, you're much better off doing it in person if you can.

Speaker 2 (57:00.921)
Agreed. Oliver, I've mentally enjoyed the conversation, John, but we're coming to the end. And the last question I'd love to ask you is, is there anything that I've not asked you today that you'd love to share with us? a piece of advice or a quote that's been particularly influential in your career or anything else you'd love to share with us.

think I've mentioned it. I think you've got to be your authentic self. Yeah, I think if you try to fake it or whatever, you can do it for a little bit of time, but you your real you comes through and actually don't be afraid of it. You know, everyone's individual and there'll be people you won't get on with. You know, that's fine. As long as you have a professional, you know, sort of relationship, it's absolutely fine. And there'll be others who you find your tribe and you click with, you know, but for me,

It's, you've got to just be your authentic self. And I appreciate, it took me a few years, you know, because when you're first starting off, you don't know what that is, but be yourself. That's my biggest tip.

Quality, quality place to leave it. Sean, thank you very much for coming on the Pools podcast. I very much enjoyed the conversation. If we want to educate ourselves in the dark art of PMO, where do we go? What's your website called? What's your business?

I don't have a website at this moment in time, but it will be called the PMO coach.co.uk.

Speaker 2 (58:31.778)
The PMO coach.co.uk and it's Sean Lewis on LinkedIn. We can find you, right?

Yeah. Thanks Mark. I really enjoyed this, you know, sort of thing. And I will be in contact to pick your brains around running a business.

Thanks for your time, Sean. I'll see you soon.

Take care.