Award-Winning Filmmaker Neil LaBute Tells The Truth and Won’t Apologize

Wondering how to create a successful career in show business? Or a life in the arts that you actually love? Ever struggled with how to stay true to your artistic vision in the face of painful criticism? In this electric episode of “Thriving Artists: The Daily Joyride,” host Robyn Cohen takes a deep dive with Neil LaBute, an award-winning playwright, filmmaker, and screenwriter. LaBute has continually pushed boundaries and challenged audiences through his raw, unfiltered storytelling. Neil opens up about his early inspirations, candid writing approach, and addresses the fears many artists face about criticism while underscoring the importance of being ready when opportunity knocks. Discover how Neil's fearless commitment to his craft has sparked vital conversations about humanity, all while defying conventional norms. For creatives struggling with self-doubt or feeling stuck, this episode offers transformative insights and bold advice to help you thrive and create unapologetically. Tune in and let this masterclass in artistic courage propel you towards your dreams. Connect with a creative community that celebrates deep and daring work and get inspired to elevate your artistic journey with like-minded creatives. Your ride to thrive starts here!

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Time Stamps: 

01:19 Neil LaBute's Impact on Theater and Cinema

01:32 Memorable Plays and Films by Neil LaBute

03:14 Robyn's Personal Connection to Neil's Work

03:59 The Shape of Things: A West Coast Premiere

04:52 Neil LaBute's Early Life and Inspirations

06:24 The Unique Experience of Theater

07:35 The Journey of a Writer

09:38 Facing Criticism and Staying True to Your Art

15:29 Advice for Aspiring Writers and Actors

20:27 The Importance of Being Prepared

22:08 The Reality of the Acting Industry

31:26 Theater as a Safe Space for Bold Storytelling

35:15 Navigating Controversial Storytelling

36:32 The Subjectivity of Art

37:07 Cultural Perspectives in Cinema

39:14 Challenges in Modern Playwriting

41:26 The Collaborative Nature of Theater

46:51 Spirituality and Morality in Art

5

Transcript

Robyn Cohen: 0:03

Hello and welcome back Thriving Artists. I'm your host, Robyn Cohen, and today's episode is a lightning strike, I'm sitting down with one of the most original, wildly creative and fearless voices in theater and film, a longtime mentor and artistic guiding light for me Since the beginning. Neil LaBute. For over three decades, Neil has been lighting up Broadway, Hollywood, and sets and stages around the world, and now he's pulling back the curtain. He talks about how to rise after rejection, how to stay unapologetically you, how to be ready before the world is, And how to create the kind of art that shakes people awake and knocks'em alive. It is honest, it is fire and it is yours. And if you wanna do the thing, not just hear about it, come audit class. Our final two sessions this round are Tuesday, June 24th at 7:00 PM Pacific and Monday June 30th at 12:00 PM Pacific. it's free for first timers. Just DM me on Instagram@RobynCohenActingStudio, or reply to the email in the show notes. Alright, sports fans, buckle up, throw your hands in the air and let's ride. Here we go with Neil LaBute. Hello there and welcome back to the Daily Joyride. I'm your host Robyn Cohen and today we have a guest who I like to jokingly not jokingly refer to as Sir Night Maestro, Neil LaBute, a one of a kind, groundbreaking playwright, filmmaker, and screenwriter whose unflinching approach to storytelling has made him one of the most distinctive and delectable voices in contemporary drama. A true master wordsmith, Neil's work has actually redefined, and I'd add reinvented, the boundaries of modern theater and cinema his panoply of plays, films, and TV shows really does embody a kind of rare fearlessness when it comes to exploring human relationships, primal propensities, and moral complexities. His remarkable ability to Weave a tail or turn it on its head completely has made him a titan in the arts and crafts realms, aka show business, with decades of brilliant work under his belt that often hits below the belt. Ah! I can edit all this out. I can edit these bad jokes out. I

Neil Labute: 2:26

can get rid of them.

Robyn Cohen: 2:27

I can get rid of,

Neil Labute: 2:28

This really should just be released on its own.

Robyn Cohen: 2:33

Neil's art, challenges us to look inward. And to go a little deeper, sparking vital and often alarming conversations about the many facets and nuances of our shared humanity. In the world of theater, my favorite zip code, Neil has electrified audiences from London's West End to New York's Broadway stages with such plays as Bash, Latter day Plays, a gripping collection of one act plays exploring themes of sin and guilt. The Shape of Things, a romance horror dissecting art and manipulation later adapted into a film. Fat Pig, a gutting commentary on body image and societal pressures. Reasons to be Pretty, scrutinizes the overwhelming obsession with physical appearances. Reasons to be Happy, How to Fight Loneliness. A ripping and unlikely love story about empowered choices to live or die in the face of fatal illness. The Mercy Seat, a brutal exploration of morality set against the backdrop of 9 11. Some of his lauded film work and television work includes in the Company of Men, his debut feature which earned him the Filmmaker's Trophy at Sundance. and the Independent Spirit Award for Best First Screenplay and is widely regarded as a modern classic. Your Friends and Neighbors, a deliciously twisted exploration of interpersonal relationships. Nurse Betty, a dark comedy that earned acclaim at Cannes. Lakeview Terrace, a thriller addressing race and morality. Von Helsing, a critically acclaimed TV series where LaBute served as writer and showrunner. Neil, we are so beyond Nailed it, well, we are, we are so beyond honored and a little scared in a good way, to have you here on the show, your work has left. Such an indelible mark on so many creatives and non arty people. And I am so grateful to be able to say that I've actually been in many of your productions and lucky enough to have performed in a bunch of your plays and know legions of actors and students who are literally working on your material. and or rehearsing scenes from your plays and one acts right now as we speak. So I'm here on behalf of a lot of folks in the arts and crafts world and beyond who are just jonesing to know more about you and your work and how you do it and how in the heck you do so much of it and make it so great and make it look kind of easy and all that jazz. So Thank you so much for coming onto the show. I'm so happy you're here and welcome. Pleasure. Obviously welcome to the Daily Joy Ride.

Neil Labute: 5:11

I mean, we, we, we met this way, right? You were doing, uh, the Shape of things.

Robyn Cohen: 5:14

Yes, yes. I met you

Neil Labute: 5:16

through, through that production. Yeah. So you have the Shape of Things. West

Robyn Cohen: 5:19

Coast, west Coast, premiere. Mm-hmm

Neil Labute: 5:22

was a while. Beautiful. Laguna. Right, Laguna Beach.

Robyn Cohen: 5:25

Ah! Wasn't that yummy? Laguna Beach.

Neil Labute: 5:28

Lovely area. Lovely theater. The

Robyn Cohen: 5:30

whole thing. And then we put that ripping play on stage and people were just like, what is this? And they were galvanized and, and. Repelled and magnetized, and it really made a splash in that, like, little beach community. Yeah, well,

Neil Labute: 5:50

that's great. That's the way it should be, right? I mean, that's the way theater should get you on your feet or make you lean forward or head to the door or something.

Robyn Cohen: 5:57

Yes, a hundred percent.

Neil Labute: 5:59

Back into your seat, I guess.

Robyn Cohen: 6:00

Yes, yes, yes. So that was 20 something years ago. I'd love to Neil, wind it back a little bit, even before that, you know, when you look at your body of work and my students that are working on your plays and material, everyone's like, how does, how does he do like, where did he, where does he get it? His ideas, how does he have such a magnificent display of material, so much of it, like one of the most prolific writers that we've ever worked with and people are always curious, like, what are some of the influences that he has? maybe even just growing up, like, did you have people in your life, whether that was a parental figure or people that surrounded you, mentors, that encouraged you tell stories and to, carve a path in the world of film and television and theater? And how did you get, how'd you get the guts to do what you do? Like, who were some of the people Or pieces of art that molded and shaped. You on your journey.

Neil Labute: 7:10

here's a crazy thing. I was born in Detroit. And I, but I grew up in Washington State. Very close to the Idaho border. Not the Seattle, you know, side. But the other side, near Idaho. In a lake community. And the house next door to us was the home of Sir John Gielgud.

Robyn Cohen: 7:28

You're kidding!

Neil Labute: 7:29

Absolutely, I'm kidding. I just totally made that up. No. Why? Why? No such luck. Um, I, I had no connection really to theater other than the few times that I would see it, I loved it because it was so different and that's what it remains to me. It's so unique as an art form, that's why I've kind of never, I never fall in that trap of, oh, theater's dying, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna, it's, I don't think it'll ever die because it's, it's so unique. It's an experience that people go to live, connect with live actors and I can't imagine that ever blowing out, that, you know, that people don't want to have this, such a unique thing happen. And so, the few times, whether at church or a community theater, or running off to see a college production at my brother's school, because he went to school near where we grew up, and me seeing these, you know, few things always kind of electrified me. And I was like, what is, what is this thing? That is so not part of my life. And I watched a lot of television. went to the movies quite often. Loved all those. My mother was a big movie lover, also a big reader. You know, there's, I mean, if you want Roots, roots with a, was the public library, you know, she took us to the public library a lot, and we just would come out with stacks of books and Wow. And read, read, read. Yeah. And so a reader grows into, you know, wow, what a cool occupation. I want. I love to do that myself. I like to write, you know, and so, mm-hmm I would try and write little things and make little covers for books and, you know, that was kind of the birth of, of all that. I, took a drama class in school and I was far less interested in performing and could tell that I was not as good a performer as other people. But I also was very drawn to, I'm gonna write my own material. And see if I can get it past the teacher to see if they think it's like someone who's a writer, you know, that make it sound like I'm going to give it a name and I'm going to give it an author and basically lie. We're the roots of my career as a liar. Um, I mean, that's what we are technically, right? We, we, we make huge lies up for people

Robyn Cohen: 9:31

and

Neil Labute: 9:32

seem as if it is real. You know, that is, that's the job. And people want to be taken away, just as I did. I want to jump into somebody else's life, another story, and be taken away. For two hours, half an hour, whatever it is, take me to another place. And, and tell me a good story. And that's what I ended up doing as a job. So I was, you know, very early on, drawn to that, that lifestyle, as a writer, and I just continued through college and then into, you know, there was a, there's a moment there I, I, I can almost kind of remember going, as a student to London and seeing plays and things. And you're kind of. overwhelmed by, oh my gosh, there's Vanessa Redgrave and there's so and so all sitting in seats so far away from the stage that I probably couldn't tell the difference between Vanessa Redgrave

Robyn Cohen: 10:17

and John Gielgud,

Neil Labute: 10:18

Brian and John Gielgud. I know they're both out there. I'm not sure which is which, and you know, then there's a moment where you kind of, you know, you're, you're doing this, thing and you, whether you're in it or, or you're watching it and you think I can do that. You know what? They're just people that's, you know, they were there. John Gielgud is this thing until he becomes just John Gielgud, this guy who, you know, lives next to me, and, and, you know, and does this for a living. And so there was a moment I could remember of I could do this. And then I, I did it and you know, you just have to be strong and have the material and have to weather the storm of criticism that could come your way. It's not for the faint of heart, you know,

Robyn Cohen: 11:02

now

Neil Labute: 11:02

everybody gets critiqued. You know, my plumber gets critiqued, the, the store that I go to gets critiqued. Reviewed. You submit a review. Right. But it only used to be us. Right. We were the one with, it's like, Oh yeah, you could end up a movie star. But you're just going to get slammed publicly all the time for everything you do.

Robyn Cohen: 11:20

Decimated.

Neil Labute: 11:21

It used to be just, we owned that. And now, you know, it's like, yeah, lousy, I don't like staying at, you know, the Red Roof Inn, or I didn't like eating at Red Lobster or,

Robyn Cohen: 11:29

you

Neil Labute: 11:31

know, um, it's that. So everybody gets a little taste of it now, but we used to be our world of like, not only do I do this thing for no money, you know. But somebody gets, we get

Robyn Cohen: 11:44

berated and someone

Neil Labute: 11:44

abuses me, wake up in the morning, publicly wake, say, I can't wait to like slam you into the ground for what you've Oh, you took a whole year to write this. Oh, well good. In a matter of minutes I will, you know, cut your heart out. Oh God. Does somebody wake up wanting to be that when they're a kid? I don't know.

Robyn Cohen: 12:02

Uh, not that I've had on the podcast. Not yet.

Neil Labute: 12:05

I just wanna, I just wanna hurt people where, you know, right. Where their heart is their, their art. That's, that's, and get paid. And get paid to do it. Get paid. Paid, yeah. And get free tickets and Yeah. You gimme free tickets and I'll say, your show stinks. That's, that's the job I'm looking

Robyn Cohen: 12:20

for. We'll, I'll, I'll destroy you.

Neil Labute: 12:21

Yeah. Um, so that was not the job I wanted. I was still like, I'd rather do the other job. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Robyn Cohen: 12:27

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 12:28

As painful as that might end up. At times I would rather take a chance and put that my own stories out there and see if people are, are gravitating toward them or not. So where do they come from? I don't know. You know, I, I, I'm not someone I know where they don't come from. I haven't adapted that much stuff. I've done a few things, adapted a few plays or novels or, both film and TV or rather, um, theater. Um, but mostly it's been original stuff. And, you never know where it's going to come from, you know? Um, I've done a lot of relationship stuff, so, so part of it is a fear of being repetitive or doing stuff that other people have done. You're like, you know, if I'm going to write about that stuff, it better be new, it better be original. and so far I've done a fair, a fair job of that. But it's also, I think, wanting to tell a good story, feeling that contract that you make with people. They give you their time, their money. And you, therefore, they're asking you to do that thing that I wanted to be taken away. So I have to come back with out of all the things you could have picked. You came here tonight. So this better be good. Um, so that's how I got to go into it every time. It's gonna be, you know, it better be, it better be just on a level of goodness. Um, I don't pull from, from life very often. It's not like, you know, I've written about my parents, you know, Marriage or or my grandparents when they met or you know, oh, there was a great story But there's a couple things that have popped up that I'm like, oh, that's too too rich. That's too good I'm gonna crack at that. But mostly it's just I'm gonna tell you a story and And so I don't fret about it too much. I don't you know, I don't overthink it. I I'm writing all the time people say do you write all the time? Like yeah, not on paper.

Robyn Cohen: 14:12

Yeah,

Neil Labute: 14:13

but I can't turn it off,

Robyn Cohen: 14:14

you know,

Neil Labute: 14:16

middle of the night first thing in the morning. I'm like, oh, here's a good idea or, you know, a bad idea or sometimes you don't know which it is until you're 70 pages in and you look at the wall and go, wow, this is a bad idea. Nothing's happening. It's kind of really boring. Even for me, it's boring. And so, but I would rather do that

Robyn Cohen: 14:37

than

Neil Labute: 14:38

overthink it, you know, and I'm not a writer who like puts bullet points down on a piece of paper and says, and this happens and this happens and this happens and this happens, and then it's just a matter of you writing all that stuff up.

Robyn Cohen: 14:49

Yeah,

Neil Labute: 14:49

I kind of go off on the journey without knowing exactly what's gonna happen. Sometimes I know the ending, sometimes I know the title, sometimes I don't, you know. But it's like, sometimes I don't even know if it's play or a movie like people are talking, and so I'm gonna write that down. and so the, the best of that has been surprising, you know, and I think the best of that had also therefore been surprising to the viewer that it's like, oh, I have no idea where this is going. I'm an hour in. And have no idea where this is going to go. Other viewers go, I'm an hour in and I could care less. But, you know, that's, that's always going to be the thing. You're never going to make everybody happy. You know, E. T. doesn't make everybody happy. Makes a lot of people happy. A

Robyn Cohen: 15:31

lot of people, you're right.

Neil Labute: 15:32

But it doesn't make everybody happy.

Robyn Cohen: 15:33

True.

Neil Labute: 15:34

Um, so it's, you just can't go about it that way. You know, otherwise you'll freeze in the headlights and you just will never write anything, you know. Um.

Robyn Cohen: 15:43

It's so salient and, to dig a little deeper on that. you said two things about that. Oh, and just just to mention I am holding back like when you're talking I'm wanting to like, uh, and like make noises because I'm so into it. No, I'm like, I'm It's not that. Take a breath. Take a breath. It's that because we're, because we're on Zoom, I know when we overlap, I, it cuts the other person out. So I'm trying to hold my sounds, my noises back that I make when I'm excited about, you know, what you're saying. So just so you know, if I feel, if it seems like I'm miming, I'm just trying to not cut you off with my expressions. This is me holding back.

Neil Labute: 16:26

I'll leave you some sound space in there if you want to, like, just You don't have

Robyn Cohen: 16:29

to! You don't have to! Okay, fair enough. But, uh, you said two things about your process. you said, first, I don't overthink it. I don't overthink it and, I don't put, a pressure on it about what other people are going to think. And for so many people that I know and love and work with and students and for myself, So much of the chokehold is what are they going to think of me? Yeah. Like what are they going to think of me, the artist, if I go out there and, and hearing you talk about that, I'm sort of seeing it as like one of your superpowers because What you put out there is so igniting to people in such a massive spectrum of ways. it is so provocative, and it's really so triggering. Which I also think is your superpower, because I think we're meant to trigger people. I think we're supposed to be triggering people. But The majority of people out there a lot of whom do have a gift and a passion and a purpose for doing this and want to really create something meaningful, they are paralyzed. They are stopped completely. with making any forward motion, because, oh my god, it circles back to, like, literally, like, people aren't gonna like me anymore. Do you know what I mean? Like, literally.

Neil Labute: 17:54

Or what will people think of me? Or will this be the end of my career? Because I, you know, an audience, weirdly, always thinks, not thinks the worst of you, but thinks whatever the worst thing you could think of. Must be then you,

Robyn Cohen: 18:11

you, you

Neil Labute: 18:11

know. Yeah. No one ever mistakes me for like the, the nice person in the play. They're always like, oh, you must be the jerk, because you can think of all those jerky things.

Robyn Cohen: 18:19

They assume too much. They're assume too much. Yeah.

Neil Labute: 18:21

They assume that, that you know, it's not biography, it's not autobiography. It's just you. You create a set of characters and you have to be true to them. More true to them than the audience. I could care less. Not less. How did

Robyn Cohen: 18:32

you get to that though? Because that's where people, what would you tell your students, and I know you've taught and teach, you know, you've taught students in creative writing. It's like what do you tell a student that really they can't go forward because this, I, this need to please this disease to please and get the approval of that critic. Do you know what I mean? Like, most of us are stopped because we're worried that one person, like the New York Times, is going to slam us. And that becomes, like, the death of the living out of our fully expressed lives. We're really just, when you drill it down, I think people are worried about, like, a handful of people not liking their stuff. And that stops them from reaching the legions, the millions, the billions of people that they could reach. How do you tell your students and people around you? What can you give them to help them get over the wall in terms of you, you seem to have a way to shield yourself having put such outrageous, audacious, like, gutsy, daring work out there, you seem to not be susceptible to this 99 percent of the people I've ever 99 certain decades of my life. It's like, I'm still trying to look good for other people and make sure that the codependency, are they okay? Is this pleasing to you? Do you approve of this? what would you tell them to sort of get past that over that through that? As someone who's put everything out there. Better

Neil Labute: 20:01

to be, better to be good than be liked. You know, um,

Robyn Cohen: 20:04

You

Neil Labute: 20:05

know, respected than liked. Or whatever it is. It's like, I'm not writing these things so that they, they like me. Or, you know, love those characters. I want them just to be interesting. It's the basic tenant of, you know, it's like what happens next? If you get an audience to ask that question, that's that's what your job was. That they want to know. What happens to these people because they're interesting enough not because they're nice enough or any of those things Um, it's tough love. I guess you have to with students It's like this is this is the game and you're either gonna do play the game or not And I can't make it easier for you. The good news is The same as the bad news that there is no way up the mountain that you can follow and, and, and be sure of having a career, you know, in the same way that as a lawyer, you can kind of go, well, I have to do, I have to go to school and then I have to go to law school and then I have to pass the bar. If I do those things, I will essentially be a lawyer and I could be a good one or a bad one,

Robyn Cohen: 21:01

a

Neil Labute: 21:01

lot of money or some money or whatever, but you will get to the chance to do that thing that you wanted to do. One

Robyn Cohen: 21:06

of

Neil Labute: 21:07

the best people I ever ran into. Yeah. You know, it's like I can't, it's not a sure thing. It's not, you know,

Robyn Cohen: 21:16

not

Neil Labute: 21:16

even like I want to be a movie star. I just want to act.

Robyn Cohen: 21:19

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 21:19

And I am not getting the opportunity to do that. And so I have to find work. I have to pay the bills. I have to, you know, and if you let that uncertainty in, then the devil is there. You know, you, uh, more times than not, I will tell students what you have to do, um, I think is erase the idea of if. You know, it's if you, if you let the word if creep in that, you know, um, if it happens to me, if I, you know, it's like, no, it's when it happens, you have to know that it's going to happen and be ready when it happens that you have to have work. You can't go to Starbucks and pretend to write a screenplay. If you are crazy enough to want to go to Starbucks to write a screenplay, then you better sit down and write a screenplay.

Robyn Cohen: 22:02

You

Neil Labute: 22:03

don't just drink, you know,

Robyn Cohen: 22:05

lattes,

Neil Labute: 22:05

because you have to have lattes and a screenplay.

Robyn Cohen: 22:08

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 22:09

Because when someone, you know, calls on you, they're not probably asking for a latte. They're like, Oh, you have a script? I have a latte.

Robyn Cohen: 22:15

Yeah. Unless you're the barista, an actor working at Starbucks. I wasn't looking for a latte.

Neil Labute: 22:20

I was looking for a script.

Robyn Cohen: 22:22

Yeah. You know,

Neil Labute: 22:22

so when, when opportunity knocked for me, I had more than enough. To say, yes, I do. Here you go. Have a look. See what you think.

Robyn Cohen: 22:31

Um,

Neil Labute: 22:33

and uh, and after that first movie came out and hit and I was like not tortured over what's, and here's the next one. I had that next script in my hand. So I think you just have to be prepared all the time. It's a very, very quick, silver, funny, horrifying business and that's just the business. And you just have to be surrounded by people that, you know, you can trust and who tell you the truth about what you do. And, and, um, but be ready when you get that horrible spotlight turned on you.

Robyn Cohen: 23:03

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 23:04

Horrible, but warm and amazing. And you, you know, you guys, I just think most actors just don't get a chance to run like thoroughbreds. Like they want to, you know, you have a great feeling on set for two days and then you're like, when's the next time I'll get to do that? I don't know. It's like they. That's one of the great things about when you people coming up through soap operas used to be like people make fun of soap operas, but you know what you're acting every day.

Robyn Cohen: 23:29

Yeah,

Neil Labute: 23:29

it's getting better. The more you do anything. These are as when you say arts and crafts. It's very true. You know, it's a very work oriented blue colliery kind of like roll up your sleeves. And that's the magic for me. Hey, guess what? Magic. It's just sitting down and writing.

Robyn Cohen: 23:46

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 23:46

You know?

Robyn Cohen: 23:46

Yeah. Um,

Neil Labute: 23:47

and you have to do that, and so you have to find ways to act, whether it's producing your own stuff or, you know, I've done all those things. I'm still doing those things. Yeah. Years later I'm still going, alright, I've sat here too long, I'm gonna find some money on my own and I'm gonna make a movie like I did the first time.

Robyn Cohen: 24:02

Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Neil Labute: 24:03

Just finished doing that. Just, just literally like a week ago or so.

Robyn Cohen: 24:07

Yeah,

Neil Labute: 24:07

I'm tired of this. I'm you know, it's like the business is slow right now. So I'm gonna just make my own. And

Robyn Cohen: 24:13

you're in the midst of that right now. This is something that is from

Neil Labute: 24:17

30 years later, things haven't changed much, you know, right,

Robyn Cohen: 24:20

right.

Neil Labute: 24:20

You get this opportunity or you get this opportunity or you get both or, or none. If you know you if you don't make them happen. Yeah.

Robyn Cohen: 24:29

What she said is so key about, you know, as an actor, we're wild horses, stallions ready to go. Then you have a couple days on set and then it's over. That's where I think the theater stage plays working on material from scenes of plays even. That's the antidote. It's literally the antidote. Because you can do that truly around a campfire.

Neil Labute: 24:49

All those things. Yeah, get together, do readings with your friends.

Robyn Cohen: 24:52

That's it. And

Neil Labute: 24:53

it's not about making money off of that. And no one gets to say,

Robyn Cohen: 24:56

no one else gets to say whether you get to be an actor that day. You're like, no, I'm going to sit down and read Fat Pig and The Shape of Things. And we're going to read all of Neil's plays and come over. We're going to have lattes and we're going to read these plays. And, you know, we're going to be actors today. And then you, it's in your, uh, You do have to kind of

Neil Labute: 25:13

make your own fun. A lot of the time.

Robyn Cohen: 25:15

I think so. I think so. Especially as an

Neil Labute: 25:17

actor because you're interpretive. You're waiting for something to come to you and that's why you see so many actors eventually turning toward, um, producing or directing or writing or it's like, I've got to generate some of this myself.

Robyn Cohen: 25:30

I can't

Neil Labute: 25:30

sit here forever and wait.

Robyn Cohen: 25:31

I'm curious. Um, I do. I would love to hear a spoiler alert about what this project is that is at hand that you said you've just decided to dive into recently. but, uh, before that, I'm curious if you sort of zoom out into the, the bigger picture in terms of your storytelling and in terms of an actor's participation in that story. So I'm, I'm going to Hungary in the next few days to shoot a television show. It's a CBS show. It's a procedural called FBI international and I guess I'm not, I won't give it, I'm not, we won't give anything away about what I'm doing on it, but,

Neil Labute: 26:11

don't, but keep all that to

Robyn Cohen: 26:12

say, I'm playing a,

Neil Labute: 26:14

I think I have nefarious Are you gonna, are you going to Budapest?

Robyn Cohen: 26:17

Budapest, yeah.

Neil Labute: 26:18

I, I think I have a playbook running over there.

Robyn Cohen: 26:20

What I just,

Neil Labute: 26:21

I, I opened one, um, what

Robyn Cohen: 26:24

play? Which one?

Neil Labute: 26:24

City? City Garage this past year called if I needed Someone, and I think it's already playing in Hungary. I think it's in Budapest right now. So do you know a

Robyn Cohen: 26:33

guy that knows a guy that could get me a ticket to the show?

Neil Labute: 26:36

I think just walk up to the block office and say, here, here's some.

Robyn Cohen: 26:40

That's amazing. I brought you some

Neil Labute: 26:42

goulash and let me in.

Robyn Cohen: 26:46

Put me in coach. That's incredible. Okay. Okay. So something to look forward to. Well,

Neil Labute: 26:51

and

Robyn Cohen: 26:51

the piece that I sort of was a little worried about, which I'm interested to discuss with you is that the character I'm playing, is ill, misguided, ill spirited, um, a bad actor in the world, not in terms of her acting technique, but in the world, her archetype, and, nefarious, it, it doesn't go well for her. This character I'm playing.

Neil Labute: 27:17

Well, now I'm interested. Right.

Robyn Cohen: 27:21

You're gonna have to tune in.

Neil Labute: 27:22

You're, you're, you're talking my side of the street.

Robyn Cohen: 27:24

Right. Okay. So on the flip side, on stage, I've been working on Heidi Schreck's play, What the Constitution Means to Me, which is a story, a very personal story about ending domestic violence in her family and how the constitution related to and helped or hurt her family members. And, it's about human rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights, civil rights. It's, something that you can, you just get your shoulder behind as an actor. And like, ah, yes, this is why I developed a voice so that when it it comes time, I have something to say that I want to talk about and I know how to do that. And, um,

Neil Labute: 28:00

meaty part, which is fine.

Robyn Cohen: 28:02

Yeah. Which is really fun.

Neil Labute: 28:03

You're not nurse number seven coming in to say, yes, doctor. We'll see you now. I did that

Robyn Cohen: 28:08

part. Hey, how did you know my lines? Those were my lines exactly. I know

Neil Labute: 28:12

your work. You know my work. Everybody does that. But it's like when you can get on stage and get something like that where you really just, you know, have something to say and it's fun to say. And

Robyn Cohen: 28:22

dig in fully and completely. You wrote

Neil Labute: 28:24

a fun play there for yourself and for others obviously. Yes, yes, yes. I worked with her actually on um, Billions.

Robyn Cohen: 28:31

That's right,

Neil Labute: 28:33

that I directed and I mean, lovely, lovely person, but yeah, really good writer. And I'm very happy to see that that show do as well. You

Robyn Cohen: 28:41

directed her episode of

Neil Labute: 28:44

Billions, that is so

Robyn Cohen: 28:45

cool. Of course, all the best people, they're just like bees. It's like you're honey to the bees, all the, you're the honey. And then you just attract all the other bees. And, uh, that's wonderful that you got to, yeah. I mean, you're consistently collaborating with the top people in the world. When you're a

Neil Labute: 29:00

writer.

Robyn Cohen: 29:01

Directly gets

Neil Labute: 29:02

you out of the house, you know, it forces you to go interact with people. I'm 100 percent happy sitting here in this quiet, gray room, you know, and doing my thing and watching other people's movies. And so you do have

Robyn Cohen: 29:14

to

Neil Labute: 29:14

force yourself to interact and get out there and do the stuff. Yes, and

Robyn Cohen: 29:18

collaborate. Yes, that's great. As I'm, as I'm comparing sort of the difference in the role I'm going to be playing, this evil minded, delirious woman in some ways, I was thinking to myself, gosh, like, is that what I wanna, is that what I wanna talk about? Is that the kind of thing that I want to? And so, in order to, as I'm working on it, sort of get my shoulder behind it, I'm having to zoom out and say, what is the bigger picture of this story that, I get to play a role that serves, sending a message that actually is toward the good, that actually is toward healing these particular societal wounds that are addressed in this story and in this episode, and that Whether I'm playing this woman, Bridget, who I'm going to be playing or Iago or pick a villain, any villain, like I was interested, I was just starting to sort of pursue, like, what do we have to do as actors to really put ourselves all in when we don't align with the message that we're sharing. People say,

Neil Labute: 30:22

you know, I have to find, I have to find something I like about this person or whatever. I'm not always sure that that's true. You know, I think you can go in and ask somebody that's, that's horrible and walk away and wipe your hands and go home and say, that was a job. Well done.

Robyn Cohen: 30:35

Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I

Neil Labute: 30:36

did what, what the doctor ordered for that, you know, I, yes. Something I, I constantly say to, to actors, whether they're in my stuff or what is like, take no prisoners, you know?

Robyn Cohen: 30:46

Yeah, yeah. If you're

Neil Labute: 30:47

gonna do it, go all in. You can't be like, I'm gonna sort of like wink at you to let you know, Hey, I really don't like, yeah. I'm really a nice

Robyn Cohen: 30:53

person.

Neil Labute: 30:54

Like, yeah, we know, you know, most people don't like the Nazis, and, and the ones who do, you know, like the Nazis, but whatcha gonna do with that? Um, I, I can play that without having to let the audience. The audience will probably just assume that anyway and go, yeah, but she was really incredible while playing a Nazi or whoever she's playing.

Robyn Cohen: 31:12

Um,

Neil Labute: 31:13

I think you, if you embrace that, you say, I'm going to do this part, then you got to do that part. You know, I've had people who like started to back off, like suddenly going, Oh, they're gonna, they're not going to like me. I'm like, that's not the job. You know, my job is tell the story.

Robyn Cohen: 31:29

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 31:29

And then they'll, they'll probably stick around and watch your autograph later and all that. And you'll see, you're not really that person.

Robyn Cohen: 31:35

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 31:36

Elemental. Cause they're not seven years old. You know, they're a human being and an adult and they get what we're doing.

Robyn Cohen: 31:44

Um,

Neil Labute: 31:44

and, and so you, you, but you've got to go out there and not apologize. You can't. Yes. You can't, you can't really do that. It's not your job. And not, I don't want you to apologize for me, for what I wrote. I'll do that if I want to, and you know I'm not going to apologize.

Robyn Cohen: 31:59

You exemplify that. You literally are the gold standard on that.

Neil Labute: 32:02

You have to really do it. Because

Robyn Cohen: 32:05

there's a bigger mission, which is when you make anything and you write characters that a lot of people are appalled by, they're wonderfully appalled by. And the stories land, and they gut people, they brutalize people in the most amazing ways. And it's all inside of, yeah, like you said, you're unapologetic, you're going to write these characters and continue to, because what is your overarching mission when you set out, what is your mission on that? I

Neil Labute: 32:38

think, in particular, the theater. Is the place where we can do that.

Robyn Cohen: 32:43

Yes. You

Neil Labute: 32:44

know, people have been talking lately in the last few years about theater being a safe space. And it gets a little cushy after a while. And I'm like, I don't know if that's what we meant by that. For me it's not, it's a safe space to do anything.

Robyn Cohen: 32:58

Yeah. To

Neil Labute: 32:58

say anything. To go anywhere.

Robyn Cohen: 33:00

Yeah. And

Neil Labute: 33:01

you know, when the lights come back on, we're all here. We actually didn't go on the ride.

Robyn Cohen: 33:04

Yeah. It didn't

Neil Labute: 33:05

actually happen to us.

Robyn Cohen: 33:06

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 33:07

We're still here. Everything's okay. But we were able to talk about those things.

Robyn Cohen: 33:10

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 33:11

And this is the place that we should do that.

Robyn Cohen: 33:13

Are you writing those characters? I'm still trying to, yeah. you writing those characters that people will say, are you presenting these humans that do these? Magnificently horrible things so that people will say, Oh, that's the mirror is that to show that

Neil Labute: 33:28

I like to, I like a person who's just complicated, you know,

Robyn Cohen: 33:30

complicated. All those gray areas, all that stuff. I don't want,

Neil Labute: 33:33

you know, I write actually as, as much as people will say this, it's easy to write a headline and you know, you're this or you're that, or first movie I did suddenly, you know, you're the biggest misogynist in the world. And other people are looking at the movie going, Hmm. I don't get that, but

Robyn Cohen: 33:48

yeah,

Neil Labute: 33:48

it's stuck with a label, right? But it's like, I've written very few like sociopaths or psychopaths, you know, a couple of them and they were, they were good ones, but mostly they're just people who fuck up all the time. Yes. Like, like, Everybody I know, you know, you just make a lot of mistakes. You have to make those mistakes interesting because you're not making a documentary and it's not like just garden variety mistakes. You know, you're gonna tell the biggest mistake this person ever made in their life. That's right. And because that's what people are paying for. It's like,

Robyn Cohen: 34:18

yeah,

Neil Labute: 34:19

my life is, you know, already complicated. So what are you gonna tell me? That's even more exciting than that. You're going to take me to a different place.

Robyn Cohen: 34:26

So

Neil Labute: 34:26

it's a little bit higher. Um, not, not a balance beam, but you know, what's when you're, you're setting the bar higher because of the, the need to make people go on a journey that's, that's outside of their usual experience. At least that's what I do. I don't want to go see, you know, a movie that's, that's my life. I want to go see. Another life in England or in Iran or wherever it is.

Robyn Cohen: 34:49

Yeah,

Neil Labute: 34:49

I go. Wow. That's kind of breathtaking in a whole new way

Robyn Cohen: 34:52

Yeah, cuz what is the don't don't

Neil Labute: 34:55

wait for me? Don't pat me on the shoulder Don't don't say Oh Neil can't take you know can take a lot, you know, I mean, so

Robyn Cohen: 35:02

yeah

Neil Labute: 35:03

But I think that people have wanted to commandeer Theaters and make it all nice and cushy and everybody's gonna be okay We're not gonna hurt anybody's feelings the idea that no one's feelings can be heard anymore Is outrageous to me. It's like when did when did that happen? I mean, it's it's not possible as adults for us to to to go through a day And you know, I don't have to offend somebody every day. I'm not saying that i'm just saying I'm, not going to be offended by every little thing i'm gonna take you have different opinions than I We're so America's a funny place. And we don't have a we don't have a there's a statement. America's a funny

Robyn Cohen: 35:40

word. Yeah, there's a

Neil Labute: 35:41

coffee cup logo. Um, you know, we're so and I can see it in my my my child even this, this embedded sense of What's first? What's best? Who wins? What's the number one film at the box office? You know, in the race, it's all about this kind of winning and coming in first. And, you know, that's that's so not kind of important to me. This whole idea of like, let's see, we could we could tell everybody's story. We can do whatever. but we don't have to like this. We can only put on the best of this or we can never win. You know, hurt anybody's feelings or, you know, I, I think that the spectrum is as broad as wherever the mind can go. Yes. I just think we have to tell it. Well,

Robyn Cohen: 36:27

yes. Tell any

Neil Labute: 36:28

story as long as you tell it. Well, and, and I feel like I'm, I'm in a, in an okay place there that I can defend anything I write as long as I've done it well. Um, and not just trying to, you know, make a buck off it or, or, you know, jump on a bandwagon or that kind of thing. but I can't, I can't sit around thinking, oh my God, is this gonna. For somebody's feelings. Um, can I say that word anymore? Or, you know, and every so often somebody say, did you put that? Well, I'm like, yeah, because this character would say that. And it's like, but this, you know, somebody's gonna be like, I'm like, What are you gonna do? I, I, we're telling stories about real people, you know, at least real in quotes that it's happening on the earth now in the world we live in and, and people, you know, get offended and bounce back and, you know, their feelings aren't crushed beyond belief and they can never leave their house again because you, you said a slur, you know, slang or use this word rather than that word or, um, called them the wrong, you know, uh, um, It's just, yeah, it just, for me, I can't, I can't operate that way, which to some people would say, then you should probably not operate. that's just a difference of opinion. I disagree and it's okay for people to disagree. Even that is important.

Robyn Cohen: 37:44

We can

Neil Labute: 37:44

disagree. You know, it's so funny when somebody sees a movie like today and it's like, not just if you don't like it, then there's something wrong with you, but I'm going to try and change your opinion to make you like it. I'm like, why can't you just like it? And I don't like it. Well, it doesn't make you smarter or better or me, you know, whatever. I just, that's just a difference of opinion. It's just subjective. All this stuff is back to the shape of things or it is subjective. You know what I mean? It's like, why must we all love this or not like that? Or it's just like what you like. And, and, and know what you like and, and, and be open to other experiences. And that's why I see so many movies from other countries, cause I'm taken away and, and seeing things from so many different perspectives and from actors that I don't know is immersive. And yet I don't look at it and go, I can't watch a movie from Iraq or from Iran because they don't respect women or do this. Or I'm like, this is part of their, their lifestyle and what they're doing. And, and that's horrific to me, but I think the director maybe wanted me to see it that way. That it was horrific, you know, now we had to leave his country and it can't be there because he wrote that and filmed that story. Um, that was pretty brave. So I'm not going to judge him based on, you know, the mores of the country. I'm just going to sit back like a movie like today, like this, that's out and it's really good."The Seed Of The Sacred Fig" you know, this movie, this Iranian director made and then had to leave the country and I think it's up now for an oscar and that sort of thing but it's you know, it's it tells a really sobering story about you know, life there for women in in iran and and uh families and Um, gosh, I wouldn't want to have not seen that because oh, I don't you know I don't believe in what they're doing. It's like I believe in good storytelling You know, and that's, that's about as far as I can get these days. So that's my, I guess that's my political belief system is,

Robyn Cohen: 39:35

yeah,

Neil Labute: 39:36

tell me good stuff. Show me good stuff. And

Robyn Cohen: 39:40

yeah, show me good stuff and let me give you something good. That's the value exchange. Minor.

Neil Labute: 39:45

You know, we can still

Robyn Cohen: 39:47

talk. Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Labute: 39:49

But so it's, but it's, it's, it's a, it is a bit of a minefield out there today. You know, people are walking away from friendships or from, you know, from people they work with because of one

Robyn Cohen: 39:58

thing. You name it. Yeah. One

Neil Labute: 39:59

thing that was uttered. Wouldn't have been very solid if that's the case. You know, one thing can bring down an entire, you know, relationship or work relationship. Yes, or

Robyn Cohen: 40:09

one word like"regular", as in your play. Ah, yes."Reasons To Be Pretty" that tore down, what was the Not

Neil Labute: 40:17

a great word to call somebody though. Don't ever, I've

Robyn Cohen: 40:20

never, listen, I, excommunicated it from my vocabulary after I read that play. Not necessarily what a

Neil Labute: 40:25

woman wants to be called.

Robyn Cohen: 40:27

I had a question that had come in about what you're sharing about, two things about that. Can you write today, Neil, could you write today the plays that you wrote in the early 2000s? Could you write The Shape of Things today? Would you?

Neil Labute: 40:43

Could I get them produced? That's a whole different thing.

Robyn Cohen: 40:46

That's a whole different thing. Interesting, interesting. Two

Neil Labute: 40:48

very different worlds. Yes, yes. Absolutely sit down and write and, and I think still am in some cases and other cases not, you know, again, I'm, I'm never trying to top myself like, okay, now what's the worst thing I could say, or, you know what I mean? It's like, that's a game with little return. The dividends are small there, but I should be able to write whatever I want to write, whatever I can, whatever can come to mind and I can tell a good story with.

Robyn Cohen: 41:12

Can the culture handle it? There are

Neil Labute: 41:13

many of those. You could go through the, the, the pile of, of little booklets there that, that I've written and, and go, yeah, that'd be a hard one to get done today. Ooh, that's going to be tough. That's going to be, and for so many different reasons.

Robyn Cohen: 41:25

For so many. Yes.

Neil Labute: 41:27

so it's, But every, I guess every writer faces that, you know, do you, do you remain, powerful in what you write? Or do you remain, in fashion? Do you remain saying something worth saying that's, that's every time out, you have to face that it's just worth doing the old Goethe for all my German friends, Goethe. Um, you know, is it, you know, is, is this worth doing in the, maybe not enough people ask that without putting things out there, you know, they, whether it's good or good or worth doing anyway, but that's again, just a judgment call, right?

Robyn Cohen: 42:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Labute: 42:04

Old good. And I might not agree. You know, what are you going to do? does he, does he, do we always defer to him or to somebody else or, You know, there's always going to be, as I said before, from E. T. on down to, to Faust. oh, I love it, I don't love it, and, or so many things in between. Yeah,

Robyn Cohen: 42:23

could be

Neil Labute: 42:23

crippling for you, or it can just be, then I will, I will continue to work and try. Yes. Make things that are, that are even more, not more, you know, difficult, but, uh, things that, that, you know, I will try, I will try again to reach people and I'll try again, um,

Robyn Cohen: 42:39

you know,

Neil Labute: 42:39

cause you do have to, you're not writing in a closet, you're not writing for no one, you're putting it on the shelf. Usually it's, it's about, you want, you want some audience somewhere. however big or, or wide that audience might be. I think the idea is, you know, especially with a play, nice one is a piece of literature and you can sit down and read it and enjoy it, but it doesn't really come to life, you know, until I stopped. Playing all the parts and you know, you could take over and I go. Oh, yeah, that's what I was That's what I was trying to do is get those interpretive artists who go now I can take this black You know this or this blueprint and and turn it into something, you know, even even more than it was That's the joy of working with actors is that you go? Yes, that's that's you know You have just blown air into that that balloon that I wrote And, and now they're, they're, you know, moving around in full 3d, a blast to watch that happen, you know, and to try and to be trusted and collaborate, you know, so many people don't, you know, want to collaborate weirdly in this collaborative. World of ours that it's like I hire you so that you can do it as in the way that I would do it if I was brave enough to go on stage, well, it's like, well, then you should go on stage. If you're not going to let me just do it, you know, not that you can't have ideas and I can't, but we got to do it together. You can't, I'm just not going to just follow the directions you give me. And Oh, don't forget to inflect on that. Where it's just, you know, then that's directors often, you know, just cast better looking versions of themselves. Yeah. And then say, Oh, but you should do it this way. And you're like, but why, why is it only that way? You know, and then, Oh my God, they're a little difficult to work with. They ask questions, you know, it's like how many, how many careers have been smeared for an actor who just had questions?

Robyn Cohen: 44:23

Well,

Neil Labute: 44:24

you

Robyn Cohen: 44:25

stupid

Neil Labute: 44:26

people don't, don't like questions. Good, smart ones or not. They, they, you know, they're, they're operating in fear that people will see through the fact that they don't know what they're doing. And so they ask those questions and just say, no, just do it this way.

Robyn Cohen: 44:39

It's better

Neil Labute: 44:40

for the camera.

Robyn Cohen: 44:41

My God,

Neil Labute: 44:41

that camera, that camera,

Robyn Cohen: 44:44

the time

Neil Labute: 44:44

we spend coddling that camera and making those lights look just right. And then we say to you, go do your job in five minutes because we have to go to lunch. Be perfect. You're like, Oh, I've been in my trailer for five hours. Well, okay. Let me just think for a second.

Robyn Cohen: 45:00

The engine's going. Okay. Okay. You have one,

Neil Labute: 45:02

one bad take and they're like,

Robyn Cohen: 45:04

yeah.

Neil Labute: 45:05

Right. Wow. Thank you. You know, I mean, it's just, you, talk about a job. That's a, that's a job that, you know, I, I know both I'm not great at and, and, and, and love. Love you guys because I couldn't do it to save my life.

Robyn Cohen: 45:19

You've given us so much life. I mean, the amount of

Neil Labute: 45:22

creative fire. My pleasure. But you know what I mean is that, particularly in movies and TV, you know, as you head off to Hungary, I'll just scare you a little more. But you already, I'm not scaring you because you know this. You know, it's like the stage is just so different.

Robyn Cohen: 45:36

We just

Neil Labute: 45:36

build all together from the beginning, and then we create this thing at the end that has risen in a normal pattern. And movies were like, Hey, Robyn, so glad you're here. Can you run down and, uh, and do the bed scene now? Oh, wait, actually, can you do it after lunch? Cause we got to go to lunch and you're like, Oh, go. Okay. Oh, can you try it right now quickly for us? So we can just get a close up. Um, it's, it's just, it's all happened.

Robyn Cohen: 45:58

Everything that you just said has happened. It's all based on economics,

Neil Labute: 46:02

all on how fast and cheap can we do this thing?

Robyn Cohen: 46:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Labute: 46:05

Not anything about, you know, while we, while we love the actors and that's who the audience connects with, we will treat them in the most. illogical way.

Robyn Cohen: 46:14

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 46:15

For them to do their work.

Robyn Cohen: 46:16

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 46:17

It's constantly a puzzle and mystery to me. I'm like,

Robyn Cohen: 46:20

yeah.

Neil Labute: 46:20

So this little movie I went off and did on my own, it was like, Hey, we can shoot this in sequence, you know? And the actor's like, wait, what do you mean? You mean like, like I could emotionally build this in a normal way? Yeah. It almost didn't even make, didn't make sense. They're like, what

Robyn Cohen: 46:38

is this new art form? I can't do,

Neil Labute: 46:40

I can't do things like that. I can't do it the right way.

Robyn Cohen: 46:43

That makes too much sense.

Neil Labute: 46:44

Yeah. You've taught me to do it completely illogically.

Robyn Cohen: 46:48

Wow.

Neil Labute: 46:49

So, God bless when you get a chance to do that, but you know, God bless the theater that allows us to go do it in that form as well.

Robyn Cohen: 46:56

Speaking of God,

Neil Labute: 46:58

yes,

Robyn Cohen: 46:58

um,

Neil Labute: 47:00

that old creepster,

Robyn Cohen: 47:04

no,

Neil Labute: 47:04

trickster, trickster,

Robyn Cohen: 47:06

creepster.

Neil Labute: 47:08

I mean, speaking out of school, I don't know,

Robyn Cohen: 47:11

he

Neil Labute: 47:12

might be,

Robyn Cohen: 47:12

he

Neil Labute: 47:13

or she. Might be, for all I know. Um, not They, they, them, have got to have a sense of humor, because, I mean, otherwise this makes no sense. You know, if you look up and go, don't ask me, I don't know. I just created it.

Robyn Cohen: 47:32

Right.

Neil Labute: 47:33

They made a mess out of it.

Robyn Cohen: 47:34

Yeah,

Neil Labute: 47:35

yeah.

Robyn Cohen: 47:37

What about

Neil Labute: 47:37

what

Robyn Cohen: 47:38

about that? So, um, that's staying in, that's all staying in. But, um, so I know you, when you were at a university and you were part of the Mormon church and. and are now no longer, participating with the Church of Latter day Saints. Participating. Participating. Um, okay. As if it was a Holy Day party. I'm no longer participating. No longer participating. I'm wondering, and, I mean, this isn't like, This isn't a woo woo show, like it's not, I am, I am actually pretty woo, I'm a little woo, um, but I'm curious, like, how and where spirituality or religiosity finds its way into your, your work, your world, your art.

Neil Labute: 48:24

It often seems to find

Robyn Cohen: 48:26

its way into stuff that

Neil Labute: 48:27

I've written. Yeah, I mean those, I love those big things like you mentioned"Bash" like sin.

Robyn Cohen: 48:32

Yeah,

Neil Labute: 48:33

well those things don't have to have just a. You know, Old Testament value to them. They are just things that are kind of instilled in our lives now. And we, we weigh them and, you know, is goodness or badness or, how we treat people that doesn't have to ultimately have a religious, notion behind it as well. Yeah. I just think that, those things are, are interesting. I grew up in a, as a kid, I grew up in a church that was a, you know, a non denominational church. They just, just read from the Bible, had Sunday school, come one, come all. You can be from any denomination that you were or, or thought about or have been before. And come to our church. And so that was very simple tenets of, you know, and I think it landed all the kind of like early moral, you know, stuff remains interesting to me.

Robyn Cohen: 49:22

Yes,

Neil Labute: 49:22

how we treat each other, you know, good, bad, and how quick silver we can be in one day, let alone as a person, you know, as a character, right? Oh, that's the, that's the villain. And here's the hero. And you know, and as we know, it's often more complex than that. I can be all those, or one to one person and something different to another person. And are you lying to that person? Or are you just Through their lens, you know, you've become that other thing. those are the interesting people to me. You know, those, those characters where you're like, I'm not sure how I feel about that person, but they certainly intrigue me. And I want to see where this journey takes them. You know, Jules Feiffer just passed away. The guy who wrote Carnal Knowledge. And, I mean, that was always a big, you know, talk about a you know, something that struck me, not just the fact that it was a play, and then became a film, but just the, the formality of it and how, you know, you put that movie out today and people will be like, whoa, that's, what is this? Yeah. Pretty devastating, you know, his portrait of, and pitiless, his portrait of men and women and, you know, and their, their, shenanigans together. Shenanigans.

Robyn Cohen: 50:30

Sounds so nice when you say it that way. And Mike Nicol

Neil Labute: 50:32

really transformed it into something formal and beautiful and, and great performances and, you know, right down to like sweet little young Carole Kane who doesn't speak a word and just, you know, is just all eyes. That moon

Robyn Cohen: 50:46

face.

Neil Labute: 50:47

You know, they're starting to tear up as she watched the horrible Jack Nicholson, you know, the slideshow, you know, the end of the thing, right down to her. Fantastic. but you know, I mean, when those are those, those pieces you see out there, you go, Carol Churchill's"Top Girls" and, you know,"Fences", August Wilson, you're like, Oh, not only do you love them, you're like, I wish I'd written that. You know what I mean?

Robyn Cohen: 51:09

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 51:10

So there's like, there's never a day goes by. I try to, for myself, I try to watch something that I think is, is better than anything I'll ever do every day. I mean, it's like the race practice.

Robyn Cohen: 51:22

I remember when I

Neil Labute: 51:23

was making, I was making"Your Friends and Neighbors", and I ran some films, including'Carnal Knowledge", for the cast. I would just, I would get a screening room and run, run movies and, introducing them, I would say, well, we're about to watch a movie that's way better than what we're about to make, but this is what we're shooting for, you know? And so it was'Carnal Knowledge", it was Woody Allen's"Manhattan", it was, you know, it was like, Things that I was like, yeah, that's what I'm gunning for.

Robyn Cohen: 51:49

And I

Neil Labute: 51:49

don't know if we'll get there. And we didn't really get there in the same way. But, you got there in your way. You got

Robyn Cohen: 51:56

there. You got there. This is what we're

Neil Labute: 51:58

shooting for. Wouldn't it be fun to be thought of in the same breath. And so, that's, for me, it's always good to have heroes out there and be like, wow, that's I don't know how, in the same way that somebody might read something of mine or see a performance of yours and go, I don't know how they do it. You know, same thing I did when I was a kid. Now it's like, it's a little like seeing me on the curtain in the Wizard of Oz and you're like, oh, hey, it's just a dude back there. it's, there's, it's actually not magic. It is just, uh, it is, it's work. They do this thing so well. That it seems like it's magic.

Robyn Cohen: 52:33

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 52:34

That's the fun of it. But it's not.

Robyn Cohen: 52:36

it might not be magic in its classical sense, but there is something, speaking of spirituality and religion, there is something mystical that happens. And that has happened. There's at

Neil Labute: 52:47

least a moment. Usually. I've seen plays without. I've seen a play without those moments. But usually there's a moment. Sure. We all have. Or seven minutes. You know, where you go. Yeah. You kind of like wake up and you're like, I was lost. I was in it. And

Robyn Cohen: 53:00

yeah,

Neil Labute: 53:01

I mean, I'm fully aware that those people are on stage and those are, you know, people that I've seen in other things or their friends or whatever, but you're so lost in the story or what they're doing. You're just like, you're taken away.

Robyn Cohen: 53:13

It makes me emotional. when I've seen the

Neil Labute: 53:16

beauty of you're about to be most emotional. So I had to stop you. Don't stop. Please, please. I think the original idea of in why people still talk about, you got to go see a movie in the theater. Is that overwhelming experience? Yeah, so big is there's, you can see nothing else.

Robyn Cohen: 53:32

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 53:32

Watch it this way. You know, when kids are watching gladiator this way,

Robyn Cohen: 53:36

right.

Neil Labute: 53:37

I don't know about that. I don't know.

Robyn Cohen: 53:38

There's no, no good on a four by six.

Neil Labute: 53:41

I mean, not for a four by six postcard on there, but to be overwhelmed by a picture. You know, I remember the first movie I was there that I remember being taken to as a kid was""Gone With The Wind"" My mom was Gone With The Wind". And then I mean, it was the longest movie in the world for a kid, you know, and I kept falling asleep and waking up, but every time I woke up, it was something like took my breath away as a kid, like, I'm like that battlefield or that that that field of, you know, of the wounded, you know, and the flag flapping and or Rhett picking her up and walking up those red stairs, you know, or whatever it was I was like, oh my god What is this that's happening? It's just grand You know and that's what the movies can do in a way that Maybe nothing else has been able to do because but not just because of the images and the sound and the emotion But the size, you know, I would

Robyn Cohen: 54:31

say that the same for theater the proscenium the size And you're in the dark

Neil Labute: 54:36

and you're suddenly like,

Robyn Cohen: 54:37

yeah, it's larger

Neil Labute: 54:39

than life. Yeah. And that's, I think a great, you know, so I still try and go to the movies as much as I can to have that replicate that experience.

Robyn Cohen: 54:47

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 54:48

I can't have seen behind the screen much more than I have, you know, and it's like, I know exactly how that's made and you see a shot and you're like, Oh, that's cool. I wonder if they, there's a lot of people who don't have that, you know, information and I can see it on their faces, how they can get lost in a movie. More than I can now. Yeah. You know, and I miss that. I wish I was in that place sometimes.

Robyn Cohen: 55:09

Yes. when you were watching King Lear at your brother's college, right? Yeah. You went see King Lear. I, I heard something you were sharing about that which is what it was like to see like the majesty of the thing, the mammoth

Neil Labute: 55:21

of a, of a, of a 26-year-old playing.

Robyn Cohen: 55:24

Right. King le and still, and still, I

Neil Labute: 55:27

believed it. I was gone. I was like, what? I don't know what they're saying. I don't know what, but it's, it's something incredible.

Robyn Cohen: 55:36

Yeah.

Neil Labute: 55:36

Yeah. I have to be part of that.

Robyn Cohen: 55:38

Those kinds of experiences, Neil. are happening all the time. People get their hands on your plays, whether they're performing a play of yours, they're in a movie of yours, they're working on a scene in study class, time and time again, people experience a kind of healing. Through Working in your material in particular and I think having watched this happen countless times so many times Like I've lost count there's a lot that you put on stage that Circles around the word of this world that will call shame shame people that have shame over body images over the weight of poor behavior and Somehow, through artists aligning with your material, they go through this process where, in like, getting underneath it, going in and digging around for like, what these characters are dealing with. That they're dealing with on the daily. They're dealing with. Deep rooted, you know, we were talking about, religion earlier and the, you know, that gets set up so early, the shame and the guilt and trying to work around that in your life. And I wonder if, Luckily that has never been

Neil Labute: 56:58

a part of my religious experience. You know, that, that guilt that people talk about, or the shame. Yeah, Yeah, I luckily dodged all of that. Thank goodness. I never think of it in those terms, you know. Even if I'm actively in it anymore, I certainly don't. Have, you know, those feelings cropping up, you know,

Robyn Cohen: 57:16

of,

Neil Labute: 57:16

oh my gosh, I was, I was so,

Robyn Cohen: 57:19

you know, abused. Yes. yeah, but for all kinds of reasons, oftentimes from a very young age, this inculcation of shame is deep rooted and pervasive and Runs roughshod over a person's lifetime. And what we talked about, the funny

Neil Labute: 57:34

thing is we, what we talked about in movies, this idea of being large in life and you, you start looking at a child again, you know, in a way, and you're like, every minute is larger than life. Every person is bigger than you. Every experience is, you know, you're just, you're, you're wide eyed. And so, that, that formative, those formative years, those first few years, that's why so much of what you deal with the rest of your life comes out of the handful of first years.

Robyn Cohen: 57:57

So spongy, so spongy and receptive. So

Neil Labute: 58:00

susceptible to Your pores

Robyn Cohen: 58:01

are wide open and Yeah, yeah,

Neil Labute: 58:04

thrown your way. So it's, it's, you got to remember that as an adult that, you know, what, what those kids are dealing with,

Robyn Cohen: 58:09

remember it and work on a Neil LaBute play because something happens where people get to the bottom of it. I mean, I've seen this, like, the breakthroughs. This is

Neil Labute: 58:21

the perfect thing for me today because, you know, I hear the opposite as well, many times. That this shouldn't have been written. and so, you know, that's two very polar Wow,

Robyn Cohen: 58:31

wow.

Neil Labute: 58:31

So you kind of have to go through the valley of Of death. Speaking. Well, that's the joy ride,

Robyn Cohen: 58:37

right? The ups and downs. You've heard it from both sides, but it is true. I have seen when people have literally like those revelatory moments, they're working on something, a monologue, a speech, and they're like, like the light bulb and you watch it happen. The whole class, we're all watching it happen and they're crying. And then suddenly they get, Oh my gosh, I've been so scared. Of my father, who's not even alive anymore, like, for my whole life. And whether they're working on"In A Dark Dark House", and these things. Join

Neil Labute: 59:11

the club. That's a big ol club right there.

Robyn Cohen: 59:14

Yeah, it's huge, and these transcendent moments keep happening in the hands of your plays and material. And I'm wondering if, you just said join the club, so. Oh yeah. I mean, this is so rich, but it's like. Do you get that transcendent, transformational experience through what you write? Occasionally. Which is so on point with all of them.

Neil Labute: 59:35

There's a moment where I, you know, again, I'm saying I don't write that much biography, and yet somebody else can watch something, you know. When I, when I did,"In The Company of Men", about white collar guys doing, Mischief, um, my mom saw it and she goes, wow, you really wrote your father. Well, and I'm like, you know, first I thought, what, what did she mean by that? My dad was a blue collar truck driver and, but she meant the spirit of the person, you know, I think she was talking about Chad. Um, the, the one. Sociopath. Yes. I was like, ah, interesting. So even when you don't think you're writing your family, sometimes you're writing your family. So yeah, that mean, would I be the same person, you know, if I hadn't had a, uh, a tougher childhood, of course I'd be different, but you know, who knows better, worse for me or better, worse for my work. It's just, you, you just continue. down the path and take the, you know, this road or that road and continue on and climb this mountain and this swamp and, and, and here we are. And I'll keep doing that until there's no more in front of me or until I can't go any further. What sobering thoughts. Goodness.

Robyn Cohen: 1:00:42

They're so yummy. Let's get a little joy

Neil Labute: 1:00:44

back quickly. This is

Robyn Cohen: 1:00:46

the joy because you're talking about like, it

Neil Labute: 1:00:48

is, it is joy to talk about it.

Robyn Cohen: 1:00:50

It is because it's the really, really

Neil Labute: 1:00:52

i was never a big talker about it. That's probably why. I would, yeah, I would, I would write because I, it was harder talk about it. Life is tough, you know, art, art's easy. Life is tough.

Robyn Cohen: 1:01:01

but you can, like, it's like through writing, let's say"In A Dark Dark House" you actually, could you actually metabolize some of that locked fear that locked up constriction and terror? different

Neil Labute: 1:01:16

box too often. But, you know,

Robyn Cohen: 1:01:17

yeah, and it's there. And then I do wonder if somehow through your creations, if you've been able to consciously or unconsciously heal some of that, I know actors who are working on your material, they're healing it right and left. So, you know, that's what's going on behind your back.

Neil Labute: 1:01:36

Time does a lot as well. You know, time,

Robyn Cohen: 1:01:38

time

Neil Labute: 1:01:38

is the great equalizer. And so Um, eventually you look up and 20 years has gone by and my father's birthday just passed and I was like, it would have been 98 and he's been gone for like 18 years and yet there's certain things you can think of that just make you like, you know, shiver still to this day. So, um, powerful, powerful job. Not everybody should have it. Not everybody should have it.

Robyn Cohen: 1:02:02

Speaking of time going by.

Neil Labute: 1:02:04

Or people ill suited for jobs.

Robyn Cohen: 1:02:07

you are a father. Well, you have two grown children and one young'un. Mm

Neil Labute: 1:02:12

hmm.

Robyn Cohen: 1:02:12

And, um, has that, has that having This young Sprite is

Neil Labute: 1:02:19

yes, because of course,

Robyn Cohen: 1:02:21

like

Neil Labute: 1:02:21

everything that happens to you, you know, feeds, feeds this thing. but yeah, it's, uh, what would

Robyn Cohen: 1:02:26

you say is the biggest way? It's now molded or reshaped what you want to create.

Neil Labute: 1:02:31

Inescapable joy, you know what I

Robyn Cohen: 1:02:33

mean? Ah! The daily joy

Neil Labute: 1:02:35

ride is here! Don't want to, don't want to escape it. It's like, it's like, the best, the best thing, you know, the best parts of yourself.

Robyn Cohen: 1:02:43

Inescapable joy that you don't want to escape.

Neil Labute: 1:02:45

This is evolution, you know, this, this one, this one's going to be that much better than I was, and, and hers will be that much better than, you know, and it's that, that's progress, that's, you know, human, human nature being refined all the time, and you go, you're So funny and great. And you know, you're not even working at it. And, um, and yeah, you wake up wanting more of that. So it's, uh, better than any player movie. Did I just say that out loud? Yeah, you did. And it's the truth. It's the actually, actually, I think we must end on that.

Robyn Cohen: 1:03:16

We must? Oh my god, I've kept you here.

Neil Labute: 1:03:19

The daily joyride rollercoaster. Oh my gosh. I would keep you another four and a

Robyn Cohen: 1:03:24

half hours, but I know you have

Neil Labute: 1:03:27

You have

Robyn Cohen: 1:03:28

a little unicorn running around. Ah, alright, alright, last. Penultimate. Quick, these are quick. Actually, Heidi Schreck gave me this idea in her play. okay, so there'll be two questions and we can make them as quick as you need to make them. What work of art has had the most impact on your life?

Neil Labute: 1:03:48

What work of art has the most impact on my life? gosh, I'm, uh, again, this is one of those, you know, first or most or, those are, those are tricky for me.

Robyn Cohen: 1:03:58

Because it's already your daughter. It's already your daughter.

Neil Labute: 1:04:01

I mean, yeah, that is a work of art, I must say. But if you're talking about the standard sort of sculpture in this and, and that, um, I'm a big, I'm a big Edward Hopper fan, you know, I think he, uh, and so Nighthawks has always been one that I, I was drawn to, there's, you know, it creates a, a total story, I love short, you know, short plays, short films, short, The shorter form is so hard to work in, you know, short stories. Um, and whether it was true or not, you know, they, they say one of the shortest stories ever written, like a full story, as, as a bet, Ernest Hemingway, and it's probably apocryphal, but I liked the idea that it was Hemingway, um, was challenged to write a full story. In six words, and what he came up with was, um, baby shoes for sale, never worn pretty, pretty great

Robyn Cohen: 1:04:54

stop the car,

Neil Labute: 1:04:55

the power of words, you know, that takes six words and you can tell, you know, beyond I mean, that that one kind of stops me in my tracks. Um,

Robyn Cohen: 1:05:04

that took my breath away. Okay. Okay. As I say, whether true or not,

Neil Labute: 1:05:08

I want it to be, we'll make it true.

Robyn Cohen: 1:05:10

We're making it true. We're rearranging history to make that true.

Neil Labute: 1:05:13

That's a, that's, that's a pretty good one too.

Robyn Cohen: 1:05:16

Okay. Speaking of words, how would you Neil describe yourself in three words?

Neil Labute: 1:05:26

I would probably steal from, from"The Mercy Seat", the character in there, I believe he says something to the effect of, he believes what will be written on his tombstone, um, he was okay. So

Robyn Cohen: 1:05:43

much, I loved, I watched the preview, a preview of"The Mercy Seat" with you, with Sigourney and Liev, and I remember the day that we were there watching the preview, actually it was a final, maybe it was a final dress rehearsal. Yeah, maybe,

Neil Labute: 1:05:56

something like that. The final

Robyn Cohen: 1:05:57

dress. And Sigourney Weaver, she's talking, it's like, it's like three fourths of the way through and she's saying, don't you see what I'm talking about? Line! And she calls for line. And the stage manager gives her the line and she goes back to it. And I just remember like, yes, that's the magic, like it was so powerful. She like, it literally electrocuted her, what she was talking about, and she lost the words. Cause she, it was so there, and they were just like two animals in the jungle. And she was like, there are no words for this moment. She lost her, and I thought it was, and then of course she went right back to it and completed the scene in the rehearsal. But, I remember watching that with you. I wondered what you thought. Were you like, Oh my God, Sigourney, you were probably. I love the process. Yeah. Yeah. But he was okay. He was okay. He was okay. Well, Neil, you are, you are, you are more than okay. And, uh, I really, really thank you for being here. I can't tell you the, um. It's been good to

Neil Labute: 1:06:59

know you. As they say, yes.

Robyn Cohen: 1:07:01

And, and God willing, good to know you, uh, going on from here on our daily joy rides. And really, bottomless thanks to you for providing so much creative fire. People's lives. Thank you. I'll look to play there

Neil Labute: 1:07:19

and uh, yeah, please do. Yes. Yes. And we'll talk soon.

Robyn Cohen: 1:07:22

We will talk soon. Maybe part two. Alright. We'll see what happens, on the other side. Thank you so much, Neil. Thank you. You're the best. Goodbye in every language. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Thanks, Neil. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Oh, wow. Wow. Neil LaBute. Incredible. Incredible. Inspiration nonpareil. So much. goodness and richness. I'm so present to like, you find your voice and then you say what you want to say. And if the critics don't like it, they can, you know what it, and you know, Who are the people that wake up and decide they want to criticize people anyway? Is that the audience that we're playing to? I don't think so. So what brilliant reminders, you know, whether it's someone that's giving you money, a studio, as Neil was talking about to make a film, or you just say, you know what, I'm going to go off and I'm going to take this next month to just make a movie that I want to make with the people I want to make it with taking matters into our own hands. and steering our ship in the direction of our dreams. I so got that in everything he shared. I'm also getting what he said about, it's not magic, although it is, it is magic because what we do does create a mystical experience, not just for audiences, but for the person creating the thing, just doing the thing in and of itself is a mystical experience, but that there's also just the brass tacks, like he was like, you got to be ready. You want to have your script. I Had plenty of stuff to show when they came knocking. I was like, here's this and that. And by the way, here's that over there. I also have for you. So we're going to be ready, ready, set, go when the time is right. it's all just around the corner or it's happening right now. But the point is be ready anyway, because on the daily folks, we want to be practicing our craft. Right? Digging in, learning a new monologue, working on a speech from Hamlet, writing a screenplay, creating that painting that you're gonna put up in your bedroom, whatever it is. Just being ready really means continuing to do the thing that we love to do just for the sake of doing it so that we can ultimately gift it to the world. So we want to be ready for that Six Ways to Sunday. Wow. Is that beautiful? And I'm so ready to continue that joyful, creative ride in classes. Come on along. They're starting up. I'm going to put it in the show notes. But come into this gorgeous creative community. We're working on plays by Neil LaBute and John Patrick Shanley and, Teresa Rebeck and Tina Howe and Shakespeare. You've heard of them. So come into the creative fray. I work with people in groups. One on one. We're online. We're in person. A panoply of opportunities. They're all yours. Thank you all so much for being part of this splendid community. It is in your listening that these. conversations arise, we're oftentimes talking about a lot of the things that Neil was sharing about in this episode, and it's just such an amazing thing to be able to say, Okay, tag Neil, the people want to know fill in the blank and to be able to. all share in these conversations and these wisdoms. it's such a thing of beauty. Thank you for your continued, presence, your generosity in listening and being part of creating this space for these marvelous dialogues. I loved being with Neil today through you and with you. I'm giving you all a group hug. Until next time, stay hydrated, stay on purpose, shine your light, and have a magnificent rest of your day. Mwah! I'll see you soon.