09 - EMDR, Energy & Empowerment: Healing with Gemma Altoft

Today, Danielle and Stacy sit down with the insightful Gemma Altoft to explore the powerful intersection of spirituality and therapy.

Gemma shares how she weaves spiritual practices into her work as a therapist, blending techniques like EMDR, inner child work, and intuitive healing to help clients on their journey of self-discovery and healing. She explains the deep connections between trauma processing and spiritual practices such as soul retrieval, energy work, and nature-based healing, showing how science and spirituality often align more than we realise.

We also dive into the importance of presence, grounding techniques, and daily practices that can help anyone stay centred in both their personal and professional life. Gemma’s personal journey, including her experiences with shamanic circles, voice activation, and even a breathtaking spiritual wedding ceremony, offers a fascinating look at how we can integrate spirituality into all aspects of life.

This conversation is packed with wisdom, practical insights, and thought-provoking discussions on self-awareness, ego, and the healing power of reconnecting with ourselves.

Tune in to hear Gemma’s journey, her approach to therapy, and how we can all find balance between the physical and spiritual worlds.

Transcript

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Hi and welcome to Spirit Talks podcast with myself Danielle and Stacy from Guides to Spirituality. Hello and welcome to this session of Spirit Talks with myself and Danielle. Today we sit down with Gemma Altoft. Welcome Gemma. Gemma is here to talk to us today and let us know how spirituality has helped in both her personal and professional life as a therapist. Nice to speak to you Gemma. Yeah nice to meet you Stacy and nice to see you Danielle. Yeah it's lovely to see you again Gemma, thank you for joining us today. Yeah it's a pleasure to be here. So we obviously know that you're a therapist Gemma and obviously we'd kind of worked as therapists together a long time ago didn't we. I just wondered how you, how you blend your spiritual, I would say spiritual gifts because I do feel like you've got spiritual gifts, but also your spiritual practices into your therapy. Yeah it's a very, yeah it's quite a broad question isn't it, so I'm wondering where to start. So I think that I have to start with myself first of all, so I think you know it's presence is the most important thing throughout of everything that I do both personally and professionally. So making sure that I practice you know presence through different you know ways, so that I can be fully, fully show up for the other person. I need to fully show up for myself as well in order to show up for the other person, but also where my clients, where some clients that I work with have are spiritual themselves or interested in spirituality, we can easily incorporate that into any of the work that that we do. So the work that I do is really experiential anyway, so it's you know I work as both a person-centered experiential counsellor and I also do EMDR which is a trauma-focused approach and I'm a focusing practitioner which is like an inner practice. We can actually weave spiritual elements through any of that if a person wants to, where somebody is naturally already spiritual and I would absolutely invite them to bring it into what we're doing. So it might be for example if somebody is a nature-based, you know interested in nature-based spirituality, we might invite that in, you know you might use imagery using nature to help them get a sense of experience of the world, of the problem, of what's happening for them in the here and now, but also helping them to to ground themselves through through nature. Or it might be that we do things like to prepare or help them through if we're doing like EMDR, the trauma-focused work, it's really important to do preparation work and with some of those elements we can use throughout the processing. So very much like someone calling upon like their guides or connecting to nature, we can do that very much and bring that into the work. So I would help people to connect to whatever makes sense for them and we would bring that into the work we're doing. So then we might invite them in if they got to a particular part of the processing where they were stuck and maybe perhaps inviting in for example what would your guide say here or maybe inviting in your guide you know what message do they have about this. I love that. Some of the ways that I might invite it into the therapeutic work that I do. Obviously if somebody's watching. Sorry I cut you off. It's okay. I'll just ask what's EMDR? I've never heard of that before. It stands for High Movement Decentralization Reprocessing which is a very long-winded name but what it actually means is, so the the main part of therapy is it's using your brain's natural processing. So it's actually a really natural therapy but it's just that the way that you set it up it's more like the most formal part. You can use lots of things to weave into it to help you along so it'll be very much depending on the practitioner as to you know how that feels. It's a trauma-focused approach so it helps you to reprocess trauma. So when you go through something traumatic your memory becomes fragmented very much like in a way that you know if someone's more coming from a more spiritual point of view they might think of things like soul loss. So what it's like here so your memory is made up of images, thoughts, physical sensations and emotions. So the thought it might not be something that's what that's the way it's talked about. I see it more as like a piece of meaning so an underlying belief or something encoded in your system that has come from experiences. So EMDR helps you reprocess that stuck information or that stopped point so that you kind of gets you flowing again and that the memory rather than being fragmented and broken up into different pieces in the here and now so that you're experiencing the world as if you're still stuck in that trauma it's stored away like any other long-term memory and you become a whole. So it's like yeah it's like there's a pink you know there's because it's fragmented can't put the jigsaw together it's all showing up all over the place and it just helps you back together so that you know it's happened you're not experiencing. It's similar to the soul retrieval so it's taking that piece back and putting it back where it should be making you see it as a whole again or a fuller part. How interesting. Yeah very much so and we also look so part of it is also the adaptive information is so when there's no longer that stoppage or that missing piece you know that you can ring in there in an adaptive belief so rather than feeling for example powerless like oh I can make choices in the here and now so yeah that helps you to live forward as well. So if somebody didn't like I mean not everybody believes in you know spiritual practice that we do so if I were to talk about a soul retrieval to somebody they might think that it was just me messing about while I've got the eyes shut for 45 minutes. So interestingly we can get the same result from therapy which you know some people might be more inclined to do the therapy rather than the soul retrieval part so it's interesting we can get a very similar result two different ways that's interesting. Yeah I mean I see it like science and spirituality are very much connected. Yeah they are definitely. It's just that people have put them into different boxes but I think really if we kind of take a step back there's a lot of there's a lot of very similar similar traits in there. Yeah. There's circumstances Gemma where you've worked with anybody for trauma focused therapy and you've seen them so you've gone in and you've done like EMDR or inner child work and then you've had like having similar things but in a spiritual way so like a soul retrieval or an empowerment healing or something like that. Have you seen anybody having like both alongside each other and if you have what outcomes have they been compared to somebody who just would have a standalone psychological therapy or a standalone spiritual intervention? I'm kind of wondering what the difference would be you know as you're kind of asking that question because when I'm doing that kind of work it's always it's always what it's about it's always about kind of retrieving something and you know kind of putting it back together. Is there any evidence of any clients who have said to you I'm working with somebody shamanically and I'm coming to your sessions and you're you're reprocessing but alongside that they're taking me in and you know that they're seeing the visual memories of when I lost that part of my soul so they're doing it energetically with both of you you know and I just wondered how it's same work in it but I wondered how powerful it would be to do together. I've never actually had that experience but I am really curious yeah so I've had the experience when I've been doing that with the PCC with the experiential counseling that's just because of who's turned up to different approaches more than anything where they have been you know they've had spiritual practices and they have done that on site and I would say they've probably got quicker results you know and deeper yeah deeper more quickly. I think my experience from like when I've done women's circles and I've brought in the psychological tools that I've got and we've looked at like cognitive restructuring and stuff like that and then we've actually journeyed to uncover wounds and do it in a child work and we've blended it together I think it's it's much deeper where you get quicker connections and quicker results because you're getting the best of everything aren't you? And in both the approaches that I do as well I do use parts of it and so in the focusing that I'm trained in we use parts work in that as well and it's very much like exploring your inner world you know it's an inner practice but also noticing any images that come up any messages that they might have and so noticing your inner wisdom so it's very much an intuitive practice and you know the PCC that I'm training that uses parts work as well so I kind of weave them all a little bit together. Yeah I love that. And you know kind of intuitively and depending on the person as well and getting a sense of you know what resonates with them. Yeah how open would you say that people are to you working like that in terms of the services that you work for? I think it really depends on the person so some people are very open already you know even in the services that I work for because they might have their own practice or they might just be curious and actually something I think sometimes people become more confident in their spirituality if they may be kind of curious but they've maybe felt like a little bit like they're not confident sharing it and then if they share it so then I might encourage that if they've already shared something or invite them to notice you know or to incorporate that I've noticed people become more confident and open in what they already do then both in the practice in the therapy and also outside it's all that's like reclaiming part of themselves as well though. With the EMDR I think that people it really depends so we can do that in a way that is inviting in a spiritually oriented understanding or not you know we can just do it in a kind of a even though it's still about reclaiming those parts and most aspects of self that really does depend you know if the person is open to that but I do think that people become more open to already just as by going through the process because when they're reconnecting with those aspects of their self even if I don't purposely invite that in you know because it doesn't feel right for that person if not they've not given any indication that would be that would be welcome sometimes people might or just authentically connect themselves you know connect with themselves through going through that so even if we're not looking at it through like a spiritual lens we use things like imagery and connecting through connecting to an image to help for example bringing the qualities of strength or courage or like a compassionate figure so we can do similar things but without that that kind of spiritual lens and I think it is just framing it in a way that's accessible for the person at the time yeah so for anybody listening then do you have any sort of like I want to call it self-help really but do you have any like tips that people could use daily to sort of check in make sure they're on the right um make sure they're the right track um if they're feeling a bit overwhelmed or feeling a bit stressed or anything like that or is there anything that you can suggest that they could do daily to help themselves spiritually and none oh oh I tried my best there yeah so I think again it all depends on I think balance is really important both spiritually and and non-spiritually for people in general you know so to function you know well um in the world so any some kind of practice that would um help them be aware of that the outside world and also that inner world so I would probably suggest some you know being able to ground themselves in the outer world through purposely being aware actively to their senses you know because we can be passively aware and we're not really showing up fully we just say you know like when people might say oh look you know look at those few things those things around you but people not really grounding themselves they're just you know like but not really present but like actively purposely no there's there's like an energy to put into to be in presence so using the senses to to ground yourself in in the present make you root yourself to you're not stuck in the past not overwhelmed by thoughts of the future so you know you're looking at your your sight touch uh you know uh sense of smell taste hearing you can purposely attend to those different things to bring yourself into movement but also then checking into your inner world so you might even in a non-spiritual way you might just ask yourself how am I today so once you are grounding yourself into the present moment um and another thing that I might check in is like um my how centered I am you know a person can check how centered they are so how is my alignment you know how am I sat am I showing up so I'm like this and I'm like hovering away from the world my shoulders hunched or I'm like really retreating away so I'm like not really in the situation so am I is my alignment good you know like yeah if my alignment's good and I'm you know kind of showing a present my shoulders are here I'm here in the moment I'm ready to engage I'm kind of like you know showing up in my adult self in the here and now and then I check how is my breathing am I breathing into my chest um where which means I'm probably in fight or flight not good or kind of my kind of breathing into my diaphragm okay which means that I am more relaxed and it's also sending a signal to my brain that I'm safe breathing into my diaphragm and that would be like an ABC for he would be he's quite relaxed as well so that's a good thing to check in yeah and then just generally asking yourself how am I today you know before I submit when you were saying then about the um you know the like not being in the present moment you said something you said you know I'm I'm always constantly in front of myself right what's this next what's next what shall I do then and then when I've done that what's that and I think I am one of the worst people for being actually present where I am now I need to practice that more myself I really do I'm always ten steps in front of myself and and I and a lot of people are like that now and they're kind of like rushing isn't it yeah yeah you're not kind of really still in the here and now and a lot of times we're we're in fight or flight even if we don't really aware it you know there's obviously different degrees to it but we're so contracted we're not used to actually just showing up fully and you know kind of in the here and now you're noticing what's going on fully yeah I'm the other way I kind of tend to like be a bit spacey so I need to like actively ground myself to kind of through my senses and in the past I haven't done that I've when I've practiced that you know I've kind of looked around but it's been exactly the same because I've not been actively putting the energy into yeah wondering why it's not working oh I'm not actually doing anything I have to do it it doesn't just happen as you were talking or like listening to you and my brain was like oh you know all this stuff and I'm like right just tell my ego to be quiet and thinking just checking and I was going through it and I'm like I'm actually breathing into my chest and it's crazy because even when you know this stuff and you've worked with people to use you know use them tools to overcome things or like you said to check in and to to get that self-awareness you don't practice it yourself it's so easy to get into that habit yeah I'm not proud and this is one of the reasons why I like just like really simple practices I think one of the questions you you kind of you know put me before was like uh what what yeah about daily practices when I was thinking what do you know just sometimes something that's that I know that I'm going to do make it something achievable um you know like not don't try and do something really elaborate every day maybe you can do that sometimes but that doesn't need to be what I do every day it needs to be something that I can I can weave into my daily routine so that ABC one it's really easy I can do that several times a day you can do that between clients and you know it takes minutes but it's not hard to do and it just helped me to myself it's finding something that fits for you and that feels like it's authentic to you where you don't have to overly think about doing it too much and you remember to do it rather than thinking oh I should do this and like say the big stuff and then you're like actually you do it you do it purposely because you're telling yourself to do what you set a reminder so many times and it goes out the window and then you forget yeah I must admit I think the simpler you can make it and it's just a few minutes or five minutes where you can I mean everybody's busy out there he's got a busy life so it's like meditating you say I've got time to meditate well you don't have to spend an hour do you if you can do some things that are just a few minutes a day you're more likely to do it than like you say you know if you want to do a somewhat big more big and elaborate later on fine do it once a month or what have you but if it's just a few minutes a day people are more likely to do I'd be more likely to do it you know a few times a day just check in see if I were all right that sort of thing but yeah let's let's make it easy and let's just get everybody doing it I've been playing with one recently it's actually I actually made this up you know it just came I just felt like oh it just came to me I was just like oh I like the idea of this sometimes I just go with things that come to me I'm not it's not like I've been sat there and like using the using the elements so like earth like rooting through the earth you know connecting to all these things that I've just been saying you know using my senses to connect to the present moment but and then curious playful open you know not rigid and fire that's where I'm engaging the senses you know there's energy into being present because it does take energy into present it isn't a passive process and the water is like just yeah much intuition my my wisdom just so that in that energy if I'm activating all of that then I feel like I'm pretty present in the moment I love that Gemma yeah and in terms of what would you say are your personal spiritual practices or um what are you know some I won't say there's a religion I know some people would say paganism is a religion um but what would you say works for you what do you like um follow or weave into your life every day I like the word weave in um because I do think I'm quite intuitive in my in my practice so we've been you know different wisdom through different places that I've kind of picked up over from different practitioners or you know just the world around me and just that where it's kind of made sense to me and in some way or if I've you know found something from that but I think the main thing that I do is the focusing and I see that very much like journeying um so it's very much like you know kind of going inwards you know and I can you can do that in quite an open way just being curious what comes and that might be anything that emerges it might be an image it might be something vague a vague background feeling it might be you know conflicted some things you know it could be it could be words it can be lots of different things but by being curious about that and um there are questions that you can ask to kind of go in deeper into that as well so to help that that unfold so that's something that I find really helpful and I think you can weave in lots of other things to that as well so I find that really helpful in helping me to um find my inner wisdom yeah because you've been doing some shamanic circles aren't you yes I did a year-long women's shamanic group as well which was amazing what did you did you facilitate or did you you know I was in a tent I attended it yeah I really I naturally it was I really appreciated that's you know somebody else was holding the the space yeah um I really resonated with that though you know kind of weaving in with nature and I I do weave in nature into my practice in fact you can do there is an indigenous oriented focus in practice which is very much about weaving in elements of nature land-based work intergenerational work so all of this fits I think it fits together really beautifully there is a therapeutic shamanism isn't there which is when I've done my circles I'd explain it like you know you probably are getting a bit of like say you know standard therapy but it's spiritual but it's therapeutic shamanism and it does blend doesn't it like you say but what have been your favorite what's been your favorite circles that you've attended and what have you done I know that I'm just I know Stacey won't know this but I remember the one where you said I've been in this amazing circle but I got lost in woods for like two hours I might have been one too too deep into myself on that one I forgot to bring the fire element in didn't I clearly to bring the energy too present and I think that's probably why that's really important as well kind of you know so we don't get too much within our within ourselves yeah there is one where we it was in the same is in the same group of people where on one of the the practices we had to throw ourselves backwards into water so it was like a yeah really letting go exercise and also you know courage yeah really stepping into that trust and um overcoming fear as well so I found that yeah really really really powerful and also some voice activation um which again I found really really empowering um and we ended up screaming into waterfalls as well oh did you breathing out into just into like just yeah so we went the initial part we went screaming it was like really just finding that you know like the power of our true authentic voice which is not something that I've done before and something that I think was needed and it isn't easy is it because we you know we're so conditioned to yeah honest believe you know a certain way you know be polite and yeah um not too loud so um so there's something about the raw power of that so that was one of my favorite ones it was like uh yeah just into this in just in the middle of nature did you notice that your throat chakra was open after that like did you find yourself in your personal life um communicating your needs any better or speaking up about things that you might not have spoken up about which have any effect it did I would say that I it I would need to continue to do it though so I think like well I don't mean like daily but as in like you know I don't think it's a one-off thing so it has an effect but I would say that I put I still feel like I need to do that more you know that's that's that's probably some work that I still need to do um that's something that I'm probably still in the process of um so it's shifted something but there's probably more and I think most things take more than one off to do them always more and I always say I mean it's safe to talk about this a lot but if somebody says oh you know I'm fully healed I'm healing I'm like you're kidding yourself in a nice way because even on my my kind of healing journey there's been so much but it's a continual process because we're always evolving and changing so we're always in the process of healing and I think accepting that is we're being realistic and we're less likely to get lost in our ego as well we're more likely to be authentic and present we all have stuff to work on it isn't ending and if we think it is then we're probably dangerous I think you know yeah definitely as well we need to how do we know somebody else doesn't know more than us or you know there's yeah we I think that's when you can start discounting somebody else's you know sort of wisdom and thinking that you're kind of a bit you know up here yeah yeah I think I think it's something that we've we've talked about and the reason that we really wanted to bring people onto the podcast really because I think there's a there's a fine line in especially like just doing any kind of work with people whether it is like you know um through the psychological therapies or it's spiritual however it is I think there's a there's a like um there's a dangerous fine line of like keeping the balance you know you talked at the beginning interview about keeping the balance and I think it's it's so important especially somebody who is holding space for somebody else in however capacity just to keep checking in on that and making sure that they're keeping balance and like you say they're ego and shooting up here and they're not like they're all knowing all being and that's why I always feel like you don't look for a guru you are your own guru and that's connecting feedback to your wisdom and yet you know your own eldership yeah and and that for me that that is the healing that is the practice that I see my job is actually facilitate someone to listen to their own wisdom yeah I'm not there to tell them I might have like tools to help you know facilitate or the space or to hold the space or you know you know but I I'm not there to to tell them you know it's about their finding different ways of incorporating things that they already know somewhere within them even if it's not like cognitively available there is something within them or some kind of knowing that they can connect to yeah and it's finding ways I think that is you know the the medicine or the the real healing otherwise I don't think it lasts I think that's why a lot of people come to therapy you know you get you get a chunk of people who walk through a door and you kind of know don't you know like which ones are gonna work really well through therapy and you know which ones might be like actually that didn't work for me and you know why often and you know the people who sometimes think that you walk through a door and it's like waving a magic wand and you're like actually I'm not doing anything it's all on you outside of that room that's where it's happening all I'm doing is creating a safe space to work through things and I like and give you some tools in your box but do you think that's why often sometimes people say oh it's rubbish therapy don't work yeah and I think it's readiness I think there's a theme of responsibility there but you know and that's where some people get stuck that they and that's really to do with the core wound thing you know it's something to do with like my my knees aren't met or you know you know no one's caring for me it's like you know it's usually something to do with with that and that's what's showing up you know and that's really the work that that person needs to do whether they're ready for it or not is a is another thing and we can highlight that for them you know like oh I'm noticing this and I'm hearing you say this and you know you know I'm curious about that and you know and you know maybe noticing that that wind with them you know it sounds like this I really like the idea of wanting and what not wanting and this is something that we use within within focusing and in a relationship focusing and noticing the parts of us that want things or don't want things and I think that can really help people to untangle from those places as well get a bit of space around that but yeah I think it's when there's some stuckness it's like there's still like something going on where the person is looking for somebody else to meet their needs not really ready to to do the work yeah I think it's right it's really cliche isn't it but I think and you'll you'll get this coming up a lot as well probably where you know you work with somebody and you know at the core of it is it is that inner work but it's also about them connecting back to themselves but it's about like um re-parenting or nurturing their inner child but also self-love you know like people that go self-loving like sometimes people laugh it off don't they really but it's almost like for me if you if you can't face who you see in that mirror and love that person how can you expect it or accept it from somebody else but don't you think that you see a lot of people um coming through with that as well Stacey? Yeah I've had a lot of um work just lately with people that like you say when we talk about like self-care people think it's putting on a face mask and having a nice bath and it's not about that it's people go oh yeah yeah I've done self-care I've put a few oils in my bath and I lit some candles it's not about that and it is going back to really early childhood things where you know like you said your needs were not met and and and things like we know that both well you might not know do you both my parents were functioning alcoholics and I won't say that we weren't cared for but some things we we knew that drink were more important than us as children do you know I mean the drink had to come first all the time and I've noticed things in my own life now um and I think and I know that it's because there's still some things to heal there and I've done a load of inner child work I've done all the meditation I've done all the journaling I've done all sorts of stuff I know there's always gonna be more to do because there were one point a few months ago where a memory I had that I'd never thought about for years and years and I didn't think it actually bothered me anymore came back but it came back with such a vengeance how I like what on earth and I knew there there were more healing to do there there were some other things that triggered me there that I needed to sort out so it's never done I don't think but I feel like if we can address it and we're willing to work on it it's not that we'll ever get over it as such it'll all be roses and and you know lovely flower petals and all that jazz but we can sit at a point where we go do you know what I feel all right with that I'm okay with that now and we can move on so that's how I feel about that yeah thank you for sharing that yeah I think that's like it's just made me think of the word acceptance I know some people are really like aversive to that world but I think usually because they're not ready to be it they're not at that place you know and people get mixed up with approval or you know thinking something's okay it really doesn't mean that it's just like saying that's how it is in fact there's a book there's one of the focusing books that you know that you know this one's actually by and why is it called now it's called the radical acceptance of everything so I think you know acceptance can be really powerful and it's not the same as approval and it's not the same as being passive and just you know laying down and letting anything happen it's just noticing the things that you can't change and that's how they are that's it we can't a lot of it we can't change the past can you it's already happened it's gone and without sounding like blasé and flippant well you know and I'm not saying people need to just get over it I don't mean it in that sense at all I just mean that we cannot change what's happened so we need to find a way that we can heal what what the the hurt is so that we can move from that and I feel like there's been a lot of people just lately now I feel like it's with the the energy shift on the earth at the minute the way it is I feel like people are shifting I feel like people saying do you know what I weren't happy with that I need to work on that and the more we can heal ourselves I feel like the better we are as a as a consciousness if you like as a as a collective and then we can hopefully help each other to just raise his vibration a little bit it's not it's there's more healers there's more people open to things and I think that the more we can do the more we can show people the more self-help self-care we can show people then if we can just check in with ourselves for 10 minutes a day five minutes a day make ourselves as important as what we make others sometimes then we can only ever help ourselves it can only be a good thing I think yeah yeah it's commitment isn't it we have to commit to ourselves and you know that can be really difficult if it's not something that you've learned to do but sometimes that's the part of the work making yourself a priority and doing that what perhaps other people didn't do for you you know rather than waiting for that to happen you know and it's already our child that's waiting for that to happen you know we need to kind of get in touch with our adults and for that you know child but it wasn't there for us before yeah but I've spoken to I always find this interesting I've spoken to people that have said do you know what I had I had a decent childhood my parents give me everything I needed but still there's something and I knew I were unhappy as a kid and then they feel guilty for wanting to do inner child work but they know that there was just something where they were unhappy but my parents give me everything we wanted for now but there's still something there isn't there there's still there's still I think people see trauma as you know I'm the world's worst for going yeah but I didn't really have any trauma I won't you know I won't battered I won't you know I won't sexually abused there were there were nothing where I would consider a trauma but actually my needs weren't met my feelings were never validated things like that and that actually as a child is trauma isn't it so your your own trauma is your own I don't think it should be compared and I'm I'm a worse one for doing it going yeah but I didn't have it as bad as her and she had it really bad and you know we can empathize with people but I feel like we all need to recognize that there were parts of his childhood that we were not there and that could be with school it not to be your parents it could be a situation at school or home you know I think though I think sometimes when you're I think your brain believes whatever you tell it and I think it's a way of still keeping ourselves safe and self-serving by saying actually this happened but it wasn't as bad as there so it's okay it to me and I recognize that I'm I probably generally don't know this actually because we worked as a therapist together alongside each other for a few years in clinic and I actually were the world's worst person as well for saying you know stuffing stuff down and showing up every week and having people sit in front of me and be vulnerable and wanting to open up and share and it wasn't really until my dad died and I went to bereavement counseling and I was like this is going to be difficult because I know everything she's going to ask me I can't be the person on the other side she's going through all my questionnaires about like what they call phq 90 depressive symptoms and stuff and I was like I'm just going to get up and walk out now and something in my brain just said just shut up and just sit and just you know she's she's give you this appointment just you know you won't like it if somebody were just like dismissive like this for yourself thought right and it took me a lot to say but you know she were amazing and it wasn't until I actually created that space for myself that I worked through a load of stuff in my childhood and trauma and it made me realize that actually I was like what a hypocrite I'd because I was expecting all these people to show up in therapy and I didn't even do all my own shit because I was actually a fixer a rescuer a saver and so I'd got into the role of being a therapist to help everybody else but what I wasn't doing is helping myself because I wasn't ready so everything that you were saying Gemma about the readiness it's dead easy to say oh but you know you need to do this or and when you look at something from an outside perspective it's really easy to unpick at stuff in it and to see like a pattern of the woundings and how we can work on them but when you're in it yourself you become so meshed and you just get used to being so it's dead hard isn't it but it literally is like you're you were saying Stacey everybody has got work to do but it's kind of unpicking it and sitting and being ready to look at your stuff and like you say usually people have always had some unmet need like even if it's not being heard and listened as a child for you to not feel heard and listened to how do you how do you feel as an adult it massively imprints don't it and you've got all that kind of thing in them like other people's beliefs and stuff on top of you so it is like it's a difficult um long process in it but I think and I don't know if if you if anyone resonates with this but for me I think the reason I really wanted to do my healing is I think there's timelines and I think especially when you've got a parent who is involved in that like obviously my dad were an alcoholic and he had really severe mental health issues and my sister did and I saw a lot of things growing up and I think that's where I fit in mental health it were dead normal um working with people um we're like obviously um certain disorders and things but I think it until sometimes your when as a parent your timeline shift and so all of a sudden you can go back and look at it because it's kind of like endings and beginnings and something ends for you to open up and begin anew with yourself and it almost gives you that permission to like close you in a sense but then you need human aspects of closure with that relationship attachment to that person who's gone does that make sense yeah it makes complete sense um it's you that has to find it it's like rather than kind of waiting for it from the outside that yeah kind of interesting what it is within yourself something like that um so I wanted to ask as well um your wedding were absolutely amazing um obviously I came and did the readings that you read your wedding in the Moroccan hotel on it so Gemma had this wedding where I would be able to felt it were a cockley woods um I've heard about this wedding and I'm absolutely disgusted I didn't know you at the time you would have loved it it was literally in the middle of beautiful woodland it's really spiritual in it it's got like your um outside area for your hand fasting which were really beautiful all your ceremonies and then you have like the bard playing it had like it had the music of the witcher didn't it yeah we had lots of different fantasy music on yeah music to the witcher it's like the most magical wedding and I was like I actually don't feel like I'm working today because it was amazing all your fires outside and different people it was amazing absolutely amazing um and I actually said to Stacy like I know you're not you are incorporating spiritualism into your work I know that you might people might be like oh you're not a reader or whatever but you are doing all that stuff naturally and with your your psychological work but if anybody was to watch your wedding and were like well you live it you breathe it every day does that make sense because you could tell from your wedding and how you were it does make sense and I think for me one of the things that I've probably done is kept and this is something that I still struggle with though with keeping myself small so rather than like there being like an awakening where I found it's more like a trying to squash it down because it was already there and I think that that's what I've done my whole life so it's more like oh I can't bring this part of me I can't show up I can't show up or share this part of me so I think for me it was more like overcoming that and being brave enough to have the courage to yeah share that your dress were beautiful it were black I want to see some pictures though they were absolutely stunning some pictures if I could describe it for me Gemma and I don't know you would because it would be our wedding obviously tell me if I'm wrong but it looked like a very pagan witchy wedding it were beautiful yeah it was wasn't it we incorporated the elements we had a traditional hand frosting and we incorporated the elements we had the hand you know the yeah the hand tying I just wonder if Michael Bowen wants to renew his wedding vows well yeah we had a celebrant who was absolutely wonderful and we had our guests create a circle for sending of roses so we didn't know they were going to do that I just we just wanted them all to be in part and take part so we got loads of roses and different colours and and invited guests to to just lay them like at the altar and then when we got down there they'd created a circle for us to stand in and then like they there was like a beautiful archway which I decorated in like some nice like black netting and then flowers but so like this archway and then this circle of like different coloured roses for us to stand it was so it was so lovely we made offerings to each other for each of the elements as well oh did you yeah I'm gonna see if I could find a photo so obviously your husband's into this he's not obviously with him being there and actually taking part yeah he is but you know he doesn't he doesn't like actively no look into it he's willing to attend things with me you know if I invite him you know like he's come to like some shamanic you know workshops with me if I've invited him and but he yeah it's not like he a huge part of his life like you know similar with mine he's more like he's willing and serious yeah that's it but but he won't actively go oh lovely well I mean I'm doing it I'm doing we've got a spiritual retreat in March I said why don't you come and he looked at me and he went no it's fine love thanks no it's not really my scene all right then do you know what I mean but he's like no no it's more your thing that love go enjoy yourself he's happy that I'm doing it but don't want to be part of it really do you know what I mean yeah he's encouraging but yeah yeah not not ready for that maybe to be fair though I don't think I don't think it would be my I don't think we'd work as well as we do if he was into the spirituality as much as me either I think I'd find it all of it too much yeah I think I think there is something about having some space for yourself though isn't it yeah that's it it's nice I mean obviously Andy is interested and is interested like if I do things for him like if you know if I do my reading or like he's interested in certain bits and he tries to meditate struggles but I like that he's that we've got differences you know like I think it's him some people like to be you know some couples who are really into spiritual stuff together and work together and live and breathe it together but I would want that little bit of gap and separation healthy you know it's reminded me of uh reading from Khalil Gibran and we had this actually as part of our hand fasting where it's talking about the the trees standing apart can't remember it off the top of my head but yeah he's just really reminding me of that just what is it Khalil Gibran who is uh was like a mystic poet um a beautiful um piece of work called the prophet um and it's like you know um spiritual advice really but a few of these beautiful it's kind of like you know poetic pieces of writing um and one of them is called marriage and part of that I'm going to see if I can find it because I literally got the book yes yeah live one another love one another but make not a bond of love let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls fill each of his cup but drink not from one cup give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf sing and dance together and be joyous but let each one of you be alone even as the streets strings of a lute are alone so they quiver with the same music give your hearts but not into each other's keeping but only the hand of life can contain your hearts and then the next this is the bit I meant and stand together yet not too near together for the pillars of this temple stand apart and the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow so we all love that yeah that was the reading that we had in ourselves that's proper lovely isn't it it's beautiful I can't remember it and obviously we're just me and Andy are actually planning the wedding and we were saying should we do a hand fasting we've done one a long time ago but do it again like we're friends and everything and then maybe do the official marriage but you've not done the official marriage either have you Gemma we haven't we just didn't feel the need yeah we're not really sure what we would have got from it we could have done it but I felt like it would be more of a plea to please other people pick a box and like the expectations of society so try not to to do that I'm not really sure that it would really serve anything for for us so we yeah we kind of just went with what what did we feel that would mean something to us wouldn't it be meaningful and not to explore a box again it's exactly what it should be it should be for yourselves and not everybody else the other thing there Gemma is I just want to mention that when Danny Danielle just said that she couldn't remember that your wedding had I been invited I would have remembered that from you that would have been a special part I would have remembered it were really beautiful because I think you know it were I was quite nervous because I wanted I've not done and I've not done readings at somebody's wedding and I wanted it to be really like lovely for her and I think in my head I was thinking what time am I starting and I was and it was outside a little bit chilly wasn't it lovely and then I was just conscious that I'd have time to get in they had like a massive like a banquet were beautiful weren't it with like the five plates in the table and like the big platters of meat come out and everything and I was conscious that I had so much time to eat and then I had to get back out and I were like I remember thinking what are people because I thought some people would take to what I did and I'm like well what if some people don't and I think what's she doing at a wedding but I sat at Gemma's table she sat me with her friends and you know when you get like what do you do and I thought oh god I'm gonna be like you know like the weird one but actually there were a guy who were what do you do he um he was a zookeeper yeah a zookeeper to the right there was somebody created games for what who were it for well Microsoft so she put me with all these really interesting out there people and I was like oh I'm not the not the reason on my own because I went on my own that's the people I knew yeah so we're really glad I'm like oh I feel all right but in the head I was like so conscious of like the times and stuff like that and everything we're going on but yeah we're beautiful we're amazing that's that's really funny and I was you're fit right yeah it's funny it's them concepts about what you have about yourself don't you the stories that you tell yourself and so I think sometimes though as well I think it can be nerve-wracking like you know like obviously we didn't have like a traditional wedding but when people won't mention that because sometimes people they can be really formal so there is that association you know you may be expecting it to be quite formal which some people really like to me that I'd fully feel quite uncomfortable I would my wedding cost me about two and a half grand that were absolutely everything makes me a system and we went and invites me auntie made me cake my mum dressed the cake we had it so that makes friend got us the car they had a pub so we had the reception in the pub we had a bouncy castle we had we had an outside barbecue it was fantastic but it would just you know I didn't want any sit-down plan where you couldn't sit auntie grace next to auntie margaret because they'd be trouble and all that and any of that it was just about me and mick getting married and inviting every all of everybody it was just sort of no frills but a fantastic day I really enjoyed it that's what's from you like that you did what you what felt right for you absolutely sorry don't you well obviously this is my second wedding so that sounds really bad like I've been married loads and obviously I've not it's just great it's worried I know it's my second time round and hopefully this one will be to last sound like I can't keep capably married but um uh yeah it's gonna be like just really authentic and just what what what fits for us as well so it will be very similar I think when you're all mature though like I don't mean it's like emotional maybe that too but you know when you're a bit older yeah just what do I want to do what do we want to do it's a woman you stop wanting to please everybody else don't you like yeah I think you figure out what's important don't you what is important to you what matters to you and you've just got to go with that yeah like we really wanted people just have a good time so enjoy it and you know so we thought you know how can we make people feel comfortable yeah these activities things people can do so they're not just you know kind of to drown really you know like what they're saying ways of you know like sharing food so the people are coming together in community or kind of like it was like it was all thought around like how can we make this kind of become kind of like a community obviously we wanted the actual ceremonies to be about us but in terms of you know the day because you know there are other people there and it felt like a very spiritual wedding it were very like you like you say community-led and everybody felt involved and and I went on my own didn't I obviously because I'll read in the evening but um I felt like really included in corporate corporate cat talk but yeah it was amazing it was a lovely day so if you just before we finish if there was something that you would want to do how would you want your work to evolve or to go forward you're like ideally incorporating like you say like you feel you can bring the spiritual sense into your work you know I'd probably do more private work so that I could weave weave more into it as well um you know and I think it would be more like um obviously I I would be able to put out there more what I do and people would be more drawn to me I guess in terms of because of what I do rather than just happen to come across me if that kind of makes any sense so yeah I think uh I think it would be using that fire element and putting myself out there more I think it would be that so I think it's just when you kind of like actively yeah I think do you know when I resonate with the not going to put yourself out there to me do you know when it came it were doing the shadow work and when when I did the really deep in the child work I realized that I've not wanted to be seen and it had imprinted through and so you keep yourself small and I was like if you just go under radar then I feel safe and it's like your ego trapped here in your comfort zone but when I did the shadow work what it showed me blending the shadows I found the soul gifts and I could step into light and being and it was safe I really resonate with that especially that not wanting to be seen I can feel myself like oh yeah like something good that fits for me yeah and there's there's I noticed like if you're doing like the the um the focusing and I'm doing a focusing with complex trauma uh training as well currently um which is like lots of like reading to do and then practicing and incorporating different elements like I said it you know incorporate the indigenous oriented and focusing it really does fit with a lot of other things I do but it's quite nice to have that framework to kind of tie it all together but this came when I was doing like one of the focusing practice images this like this something came up it was like oh I don't exist and like this image came up or like this um I myself just getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller until she disappeared like just got lost in the ocean became a particle of the ocean but not in like a beautiful way it wasn't like a relaxing thing it wasn't distressing it was just more like that's it I'm lost I don't exist I disappeared yeah but I think that's a safety thing well like it's safer not to exist yes how interesting if you know if anybody were listening to this and they're like actually you know I feel like I'd like to work with Gemma um how would they find you I don't currently have a website um I did have one yeah I was I was going to edit it and then just with my dad being really poorly you know like December and stuff I haven't got down to doing that but probably the best way is by email you know so it's just GemmaClareAlcottMail.com you can find me on LinkedIn as well um they could contact me by contacting you and asking I'm just thinking if somebody listens and they're like oh yeah so if somebody um you know gets in touch with those we'll just pass any details over or they can get in touch with you what is your email again again sorry GemmaClareAlcottMail.com perfect like that's very long I've got a very funny email address sorry about that potentially I will be you know I will have got round to editing like a you know like website and you'll be able to contact me that way but you know hold all the stuff that's been going on so yeah no worries at all it's been absolutely amazing talking to you Gemma thank you very very much for joining us today you're really welcome yeah I really enjoyed um yeah taking part so thank you for both of you for it's been amazing I love a right good chat like thank you thank you so much speak to you soon bye bye thank you for listening to our spirit talks podcasts we can't wait to see you in the next episode don't forget to keep checking back in for bonus episodes see you soon