The Truth About Prey vs Defense: Hans Alpine

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

We here for a hot topic. It's always a hot topic, I bet, for you down through fifty years being in the dog uh training. And that's prey drive and defense drive. What do people get wrong about this, huh?

SPEAKER_04 0:11

Never the same. I've heard I've heard actually on the other podcast, uh, some guy, I'm not gonna say no names, saying that the dog is not in prey drive unless I mean the unless the decoy has a suit on. I almost fell over the chair.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Um uh okay, I'm still alive. Yeah, yeah, likewise. Still pissing people off, so that's good. Yeah, well, you know what they it ain't very hard to do to do these days. Everybody's so sensitive right now, man. I don't know what's going on, man. I've been like, oh the truth is truth, and people don't want to hear the truth. They want to hear what they want to hear. Right, yeah, yeah, you do. They want it, they want it softened. Yeah, they want it uh cut a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 1:59

The problem is that, you know, I uh I always say things they are, and people say I'm too blunt. Well, maybe that's true. Yeah, well you know I'm getting older, I get, I get a little gentler. You should you should see me um 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Well, you know, you you sometimes you know you gotta be, you know what I mean. I know sometimes I have to, you know, I have to toughen up a little bit and and and and and just people don't pay attention when you are too too nice, man. Right, right. They'll run over you too. So but anyway, we here for a hot topic. Uh it's always a hot topic, I bet, for you down to 50 years being in the dog dog uh training. Um and that's prey drive and defense drive. What do people get wrong about this, huh?

SPEAKER_04 2:54

Everything.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:57

I've heard I've heard actually on your podcast, uh, some guy, I'm not gonna say no names, saying that the dog is not in prey drive unless I mean they unless the decoy has a suit on. I almost fell over the chair. Okay, probably know who it is.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Um talk to a lot of people, but I I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna please don't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

I know you don't, you know, not that.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Don't give me a trouble.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

People that's scared, you know, to come on your podcast. They said we will have that Hans over there, and he's gonna, you know. No, look, it's it's it's uh you gotta look at nature, right? The prey drive and defense drive are not some kind of a terms which somebody pull out of their heel. You know, they just there there is a there is a prey drive and defense drive in nature, and uh they serve different purposes, and we need to understand that if we train when we train the dog. I I when I train dogs, I always uh make sure or or trying to make sure, as much as my experience and knowledge tells me, that it's it's logical, it makes sense, it's done by nature, and not because somebody told me this is how you do it. I want to know why I've done it that way. Once you remember or know um why is it done that way, then you don't have to remember anything else. I always say it's much more difficult to understand, to memorize phone book, you know, than uh just to understand uh how the logic of the training works and why it is that way. So when people train dogs, they should, I think, always understand why it is that way. We should not be saying, well, prey drive is this, prey drive is that, defense drive is this, defense drive is that. We need to understand what it is, and then we don't have to worry about you know anything. So in in nature, uh the pre-drive, you know, I I uh there's there is this great doctrine up in uh Bob Eden. He explained it to me, and I hope I got it right from him, but uh it's very interesting. I just read, you know, it's about a year ago, two years ago, he gave me his perspective on it, and basically as I understand it, and I'm gonna ask him to forgive me if I'm messing it up. The drive is not what we as a dog trainers call drive. Drive is what it's a feeling the dog has based on some kind of an external um situation. So for example, prey drive is caused by hunger. So the hunger is a drive. Hunger is a drive, right? Right, and kill it and eat it. That's hunger is doing it. Right now, the trainers they say the chasing and tracking and uh looking for track and order of the prey is a prey drive, but that's prey behavior. So the drive, the hunger induces in the dog behavior. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

So would it be safe to say that the drive is the motivation and the prey is the action?

SPEAKER_04 7:21

Right, right. Okay, right. So and the prey drive has many subsections. You know, van diagrams, you have this circle and then you have a bunch of other circles around the cross and all that. Right. So the the the in the van diagram, the prey drive has many subsections. Chasing reflex, retrieve drive, uh tracking. Uh you know, and tracking is then divided to more subsection. Uh uh tracking, trailing, air scenting. You know, so the mother puppies killing something, rabbit, she'll eat it. And she will go to the den and the and and and and it's in her first part of her stomach where it gets pre-digested the food. That's why it's good when I if you people, if people get my how to feed the raw, I I pre-soak the meat first for puppies in apple cider vinegar, just to predigest it a little bit, okay. And then when she comes to the den, the puppy licks her on the muzzle and and she'll regurgitate it, and the puppies eat that. That's why puppy eat to eat puke and stuff, and people say, Oh, that's gross. But but that's basically part of the prey drive. Okay. Right. And then the this is getting a little more complicated. Um the uh the prey drive has its own defense drive, separate from uh actual defense drive, I'm gonna be talking about in a little bit. You know, if you look at um training like Jerry Bradshaw does, the uh the the uh the the channeling, right? So uh what is it based on? It's based on defending the prey. Right? So they put a sleeve between the um dog and the helper or the decoy, and the decoy acts like he's gonna steal the sleeve, right? The dog then um defending is defending the sleeve, the prey, the booty, and uh turns aggressive towards the decoy or the bad guy. Right and that is defense drive within the prey drive. Right? So the prey drive has many subsections and one of them, besides the other defense I'm gonna be talking about later, uh one of them includes defense drive, defense of the prey, of the dead rabbit. Right? Yeah, okay, which is it's simulated by the sleeve. Gotcha. Right. So the dog is defending the sleeve as it would be defending of the rabbit, and you probably notice I use the word defending, so that's defense, which is part of the prey, right? Yeah, okay, all natural, all natural, all natural. If it's not natural, I'm not interested in it. I'm not ideologue, I I go strictly by the nature and logic. Okay, and uh so that's a prey drive. Now, I'm not necessarily advocate for people training dogs through channeling, meaning defending the sleeve. I used to do that too, you know. But uh, but you know, you you go and you put a sleeve between you and the dog, and then you act like you want to steal it, and dog will act aggressively on the decoy. And eventually the dog will become aggressive on the person because he hears the command to be aggressive. Dr, passauf, fuss, pecken, whatever German, whatever command they use, right? Get him in English, right? So when the dog hears that command, he becomes aggressive on the person because I'm still talking pre-drive now, right? Right. Because because he wanna steal his booty, his his rabbit, his sleeve, his burlap sack, whatever. Right. Right. So so the the dog, then when you are on a street like a person who needs protection from their dog, you give the dog a command to attack or apprehend in case of law enforcement, and the dog does it, even so the sleeve is not there anymore. Because he is in binary fashion associating defending of the sleeve with the command. So eventually the sleeve doesn't even have to be there, and he hears the command, and he says, Hey, that guy wanna steal my booty, even so the booty is not there anymore. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

All right, yeah, yeah. So so what does it look like when you take away?

SPEAKER_04 13:24

I know what you want. Okay, okay. I know you want to go by how how how you can tell the difference. I'll get to it. I first need to explain this so people understand what we are talking about, you know. Yes, sir. So I go in, so never expect a simple answer from me, man. Yeah, I know, I know. I know it. So so anyway, so that's your that's your pre-drive. That's how pre-drive works, that's how pre-training uh is the problem with the you know, so so you binarily have tied the command with defending of the sleeve or the rabbit or the booty or whatever you want to call it. But and so it looks civil. The dog is attacking the person, right? But the problem with that is that it's all about the sleeve, all about the equipment on the ground, all about the rabbit, all about the booty. Right? That's why the dog is attacking the person, even so none of those things are there. So the moment the thing is there, the the the the prey object is there, the dog will lose interest, or may lose interest, or often does lose interest, in attacking the bad guy and start playing with the suit or whatever, or the sleeve on the ground. Okay, there's a video on internet for many years now. Um there was this guy, homeless guy, John Boyd in uh Albuquerque, New Mexico. Okay, and he was like homeless and all that, and uh somebody called cops on him, and the cops came and whatever. They tried to talk him down of the mountain for like three hours, and he won't go, so they were gonna send dog at him, right? I'm not gonna analyze if it was legally correct or not. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about dog training. So, what they did, they would throw this, uh they used to call it flashbang grenade at him, and now they call it something else, I don't know. And uh, and then they send the dog, and dog ran at the guy, right? And he comes to the guy, and he's just about gonna bite him. And in the corner of his eye, he sees something, sort of sort of like a light blue object, kind of like that wall behind you. And uh, and uh uh he says, Oh, there it is, and he forgets about the guy and starts trashing that it's like a jacket, yeah, blue jacket, and he starts trashing the jacket on the ground, and that's a result of this type of a training where you you you know the channeling and all that, because remember, he he was always trained to defend some kind of an object, prey object, and the prey object may have been blue sleeve or blue something, and that the jacket reminded it on social. Okay, well, here it is. Why should I attack him? Right, and then failed. The guy pulled up knife and they shot him and killed him right there. Right. So I'm using this example. How this type of a training will fail, you know, if you build on prey strictly. I'm not against prey, people. Oh, Hans is against prey. No, I'm against prey. What is prey used for? For providing food. That's it, to satisfy hunger, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Naturally, yes. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 17:15

Okay, so that we we we now cover the prey. Yeah, let's talk about the defense. Defense drive is like the prey drive is tripped by hunger, the defense drive is tripped by uh self-preservation. Something wanna hurt me, so I hurt it back so I can survive. I will defend myself. That's why it's called defense drive. Um the defense drive then um uh has also a few aspects. We may offense, defense, active aggression, whatever. Not important, you know, people overanalyze it. Basically, when I train dog, I give him command to alert on a building. And when the dog hears the command and he perks up and alerts, from around that building comes Decoy and challenges the dog negatively, swings the stick, staring at him, dipping the head, stumping the foot, and the dog goes, Woo, woo, woof, why did he do that? Because his self-preservation inheritedly told him, if something comes at me, want to hurt me, if I want to hurt it back, hopefully it'll run away. We have the fight or flight thing, right? So, and when I train the dog, when I train the dog, I uh I make sure that there is no flight ever. I always make sure the only way you can solve this problem is fight, and there is no prey in it, in that first aspect of it. Then when the bad guy runs away, I chase after him. Now we have a prey, right? But who who do who are we chasing? Are we chasing a rabbit or are we chasing a bad guy who can turn around and come back at the dog? We are chasing the bad guy who may turn around and come back at the dog, or at us, the cane. Right. Okay, so the attitude is different in uh between prey and defense. In prey, it's food, hunger, in defense, self-preservation, you know, and and you you know, in sport, for example, that's another thing. I've done sport. People say, well, Hans doesn't like sports. That's not true. I've done sport, I have no much problem with sport, but uh um in in in in sport, the dog needs to get points, so he needs to look good in order to get points. In defense, the dog doesn't look very good. He's fighting, he's dodging, he's bobbing, he's weaving. In in pray the dog goes, and now we're talking about what you want me to say, and he flies through the air and hit like a freight train. Everybody sighs out and say, Wow, that was cool. I want my dog to do that. But the dog is killing a rabbit or deer. You know, is your dog in protection and somebody kick your door in at two o'clock at night gonna be hunting deer? No, he's gonna be defending you, right? All right, so so in in defense, the dog looks different. Okay. In in prey, the dog leaps in the air and generates this this this this uh con convex curve, convex curve. Right. It's it's like this, concave is like this, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

You can drop near like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

So they fly through the air and hit, and there's a reason for that, and that that's uh that's one of the ways you can tell if the dog is in prey or in defense, right? Uh so if he if he flies up and leap, I mean if he runs and and leaps through the air and hits, the hit causes the prey, meaning the rabbit or the deer or the antelope, to stumble and fall down, supposed to knock it down. That's why the dog leaps. Right? In defense drive, it's different. In defense drive, the dog knows I gotta be, you know, and and in prey drive, going back to that, the the the dog looks good because he Not worried. Okay, well, if I miss rabbit, I'm not gonna eat. That's the only worry he has. And because we feed the dogs, not the dog don't even have that worry, right? But wolf would. Right? So uh so so they look good, they look relaxed, they look, they have fun, they fly through the air, they hit, you know, and all that, and everybody clapping and cheering and yodling. Right? And dog gets a lot of points, right? But in defense, the the situation is different, you know, like uh you you you you you you if you go hunt ducks with shotgun, you know, the the ducks take off and you go boom, boom, and shoot two ducks. Were you scared? Were you? No, you're not scared because you shot ducks. You weren't prey drive, so you were not scared. Right. Same thing the dog. When he's hunting rabbit, he's not scared. Right now, sometimes the prey, the deer or something, may fight back. Okay, and and the dog will um be challenged, and and there's a breaking point where the the the prey, the of you know, the animal which is gonna get killed for food, fight hard enough so for the dog, for the predator, it's not worth it. And he may flip into defense drive and dog quits. You know, I said, uh, I may get injured. If I get injured, I cannot hunt for two weeks, I'll die. Forget it. That's not how they think, but that's the genetic experience of the dog, right? So so if the if the prey, meaning the deer, let's say, fights hard enough and start flipping the dog into defense, dog will quit. Well, no, isn't it what the bad guy does to the dog? Now, some people, you know, they get hit by a dog and they cry like a 12-year-old girl. But there are guys who are tough and they'll fight the dog bad, they'll kick the dog and punch it and whatever. And if the dog is not used, so they flip the dog into defense. So that's like the deer where you flip the dog into defense. The dog is uh prone to run away.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

Right. Where so so that that that that's the shortcomings of the prey drive, right? Now, now when I go in defense, the defense, the dog, defense drive is uh triggered uh by self-preservation, and the behavior is forward aggression or defensive aggression, whatever. The dog fights for its the behavior is fighting for survival. And uh when I train the dog in defense, uh I make sure that the dog always wins, of course, and the dog never is allowed to choose flight, to run away. Because once the dog once you allow the dog to choose flight, the the dog will go there when he gets stressed out. So I in in in in in future it may happen again, right? But I I teach the dog there's no flight, forget it. There's no such thing, yeah. The only way you can win defensive fight is that you fight harder and harder. And I do it through so-called escalation. So the bad guy escalates. So I tell the dog the only way you can win is not to run, but escalate over the bad guy. And so I so so let's say it it in reality, it looks like the bad guys. I give the dog command, dog barks, bad guy comes from around the corner. He starts challenging the dog uh by certain agitation. Usually the agitation is back and forth when prey agitation is side by side. Um you see the decoy running left, right? That's a prey. Okay. Where in defense the decoy agitates, it goes straight at the dog. Hey, you know, and and and the dog. First, I start, I can start with 12-week old puppy, right? Okay, or or younger even. And if and the puppy goes, Woof, woof, he escalated, he just escalated from zero to woof, woof, right? So the decoys, oh my god, and he runs away. And dog says, Wow, yeah, that is cool, man. And I keep doing it, and the dog is just like uh thinking, Well, every time I am aggressive, he'll run away. But then and and and and and and so when he hears the command, he becomes aggressive, so the bad guy goes away, right? And um, but then next step is I tell the dog decoy, don't run away rather way, just go at the dog, and don't go woof woof, and you don't run away, you just keep going, or maybe like a little scared, like it worked, but not enough. And and so I wait for the dog to escalate a little higher, right? So we go woof woof, and the decoy keeps coming, and the dog goes, woo-hoo, right? And then the decoy ran, he escalated, right? So, and I keep doing it all the way up, you know, building him up. So the dog learns that the only way to win the fight is to escalate, okay, not to run away, to fight. He needs to fight, not to run, not to flight. Right now, the dog in that situation realizes this is this is a um this is a bad thing, so uh I can die or I can get hurt. So the dog goes to the low to the ground, right? So you have a decoy here, and dog comes at it, and he he travels on concave curve, right? So the the prey was convex, knock it down, and the defense was on concave, I'm safe because the dog is safer than he's lower, right? And and plus the the bad guy cannot what is the word, eschief or whatever, the the uh the motion, right? So if I if I if the dog flies at me like this, I can step aside, and as a dog flies, I can stab him, right? Yeah, right, right, or he right, but but the dog really quickly learns in defense to come like this and then up and bite here, right? So he's pretty safe, safe, safe, safe, safe bite. Yeah, you see, so they travel on on on con cave. Con cave, there's a cave right here, right? Cave curve. Like a hyperbolic curve, right? Right. Okay, so so then when I look at the dog and I see uh how he travels, like you know, you uh uh during the attack, I can tell if the attack is in prey or in defense just by the the the the shape of the curve he follows. You know, like uh the Russian Kafka Ovcharka dogs, they're mainly defensive dogs, they're formidable, badass dogs. And they you can I I I had a really good video I've seen. Uh if I find it, I'll send it to you so you can plug it in here. Okay. The uh the a Kafkaya Ovcharka goes 150 feet and just go low to the ground and boom and come up. It's just textbook.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Right. So is that answering your question?

SPEAKER_02 30:56

What's the difference between prey and that was an excellent, excellent breakdown, but I do got a question. Sure. Because I, you know, you covered this before, and I was listening in to some of your stuff, and you explained that these defense is reactive, uh, it's a reactive state that involves stress, and you said prey is proactive and stress-free. You explained that earlier, too. How do you read the emotion? Because you know, sometimes a dog may ears be back, and and I know it's got to be a hard to read dogs, but what are some of the telltale signs on reading dogs in the in the state of defense and prey?

SPEAKER_04 31:35

Every dog is a little different, right? So you gotta um if I look at strange dog which is not mine, you know, I mainly look at those curves, which way he travels. Is he going down? If he's going up. In defense, the ears are usually back. You know, it's interesting when you send the dog on prey attack, you know, or or when they run, the the ears are back, right? But just before he hits, the ears go like this. Take a note of it sometimes in German show. Okay. Dog with floppy ears, you cannot see it, but but with uh so uh also the the level of the bark, right? So if I'm um if I'm if I have a dog in uh um defense drive, he barks different than in prey drive. You know, really scared dog will go in high pitch, right? Oh, yep, yep, yep. And the dog, which wanna fight and he wanna escalate, you know, you you start working the dog, right? First session, let's say, and uh you come in at the young dog and try to trigger him into protecting, into defense. Um he will bark, he he at first will see, oh this is this is funny, you know, huh, buff waff buff buff buff, right? But then I come at him, I produce stick and I swing it in the air, you know, and it's really more scary, and the dog goes from buff, buff, buff to right? He he he trying to make himself look bigger with deeper voice, he puffs up a little bit, you know, chest. Some dogs will their hair will stand back on their back. Now, hair standing on the back is not necessarily defense, it means excitement. I've seen dogs in prey also hair standing back. So you gotta know each individual dog, you know. It's and uh you know what? It I think I think people put too much emphasis on trying to figure out what drive the dog is in. You know, personally, you gotta decide how you want to train the dog. So if I'm challenging the dog negative negatively, uh, and I'm advancing the dog straight, I'm definitely tripping him into defense. Right? If I'm going sideways, like I said, left right, waving white or waving burlapsack or something, that's prey. And dog gets excited, and there's no no no in prey, there is no sign of stress because there is no stress. Right, right. So, and people keep asking me about it. I said, look, just just train the dog the way you want to train it, and you solicit uh certain behavior which will express itself somehow. And if you and and it and if you're pushing the dog in defense, it's gonna be defense, right? Right? It's not gonna be prey. Now, sometimes what happens when I import dogs and they're training prey, and I'm coming at the dog in defense because that's what I do. The dog starts with prey because they say, Oh, I know this. This is prey, we're gonna play for sleeve over here. And so I come at the dog and I'm coming at him in defense, I'm challenging him negatively. You can see this oops.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

I ain't seen this four, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Yeah, and um, and so the dog is uh you know kind of surprised, you know, and right, and then again we go to escalation, right? You know, so finally the dog figures it out and goes and decoy runs, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:39

You know, so I think I think that was an excellent uh breakdown. Now, to get more stuff like this, now we know you got the course and uh uh and all that. How how do people join? First off, you got the podcast. Yeah, you can tell them about that, and then I want you to tell them about the uh the courses you have.

SPEAKER_04 36:01

Well, I have uh uh the most popular one is the obedience, right? Gabor, uh which is out-of-drive obedience, out of drive obedience, out of drive, because in sport you do in drive. In drive meaning treats and toys, right? And dog works for itself, yeah. For toys and treats, where I do out of drive, the dog works for me and with me, like a team, like a pack of two. And I'm the leader, right? Right. And that's that's uh the the the obedience establishes uh the my obedience establishes or helps establish uh leadership position, which I uh you know again going back to the nature, I believe is the uh most important part of the dog training. You have to build everything on leadership position, either you are the leader or dog is the leader. And and and the the the obedience teaches the dog that uh I'm the leader. Where the out-of-drive obedience, the the the the in-drive obedience teaches the dog if I put my ass on the ground I get cookie. Yeah, yeah. If I hear that comment, right? Right, and and and that's has nothing to do with leadership position. You can get more accuracy with the in-drive obedience because and that's why it's uh used in sport a lot, because you get more precise positioning of the dog and stuff, because you're just not gonna give the dog that cookie until he says just right, right? You know, and and the dog won't eat cookie re bad, so he sits and everybody says, Yeah, that's great training. But my obedience is I'm more interested in reliability. The dog chases deer, and I say, Come. Now, if I train with cookie, is he coming? No. If I train him, I'm in leadership position. Is he coming? Most likely, not necessarily, but most likely he is right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

So Hans, you never put any kind of treats or anything in your training ever.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

No, I don't well, I don't not not not I don't I don't use food for uh motivation for obedience commands. Okay, however, I use sharing, which is different. Sharing is I'm eating and dog is sitting right there and watching me. People I didn't really bags, it's okay. He he sits there and wait until I'm done. Like again in nature, the leader boss, he do the the the leader dog will eat first, and then when he's done eating, the um he allows to share whatever is left with his dog, with the subdominant dog to him, and there you again establishing leadership position or reinforcing it. So I do use food, but not as a reward for sit down, stay, calm, heal, and also on the comments. I use is it's just you know, uh I go camping with the dogs and I eat some meat, and then when I'm done, I just give them and they all look at me, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Still natural, natural. You never leave natural, yeah. I know that about you. You never leave natural.

SPEAKER_04 40:01

I remember I remember a long time ago. There's a mountain range called Sierra Anche here in Arizona, and I've been there camping. In my early days, I was much more crazy than I'm now, if you can imagine. I don't know. And uh I had a pickup truck, right? And I had the dog in the back of the pickup truck. They were trained to stay in the pickup truck, right? People said, oh, they can fall down. Well, they can, but they wouldn't because they were trained not to. So I'm going on this freeway. I have five dogs on one side, five dogs on the other side, people looking at me. And I go to see a ranch, I'm camping there. I had much longer hair, much bigger beard. I look like a wild mountain man. And I'm I'm uh I'm built fire and I'm sharing food with my dogs, and we are done, and and and I start howling. Oh, right, and all the dogs perked up, and they and they all start howling. So now you have these ten dogs howling and me howling, and and I see some hikers walking by. They're looking at me, they they speed up, they say, I'm out of here. Look at that guy.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Yeah, they get you know if it hadn't been the wrong people, you would you might have to go to the hospital, you might have got locked up. I got hey, so so I'm gonna let you tell about your uh your website and different things first, but uh Doug, shout out Doug, the co-producer. He's in here listening, and but he wanted me to ask you one more thing before you got out of here. Sure. He says, with your training methods of using the with your training methods of using the defensive drives, is it acceptable to use the flirt pole, rag work, or using the wedge in the early development developmental stages in puppies under six months old?

SPEAKER_04 41:59

Not for protection. No, you I use flirt pole. Okay, I do, but for other reasons. See, every training has different purpose, uh uh a different foundation in nature. Like in search and rescue, it's the sheep herding dog was looking for lost sheep, or the the wolf is hunting for something, right? And that that that that that that involves prey drive because looking for something, even in a friendly way, like in search and rescue, um I'm using prey drive or detection, narcotics, explosives, right? Whatever detection, cadaver. That's prey drive. For that, I need the dog to have an active prey drive. By active I mean the dog will um um a lot of dogs have prey drive, right? And prey drive is inherited, but what it is used for is learned. So so let's say let's say I can throw the dog tennis ball, and you've seen dog just look at it, and he won't do anything, right? And then I see a dog, the same dog, see a rabbit, and he chases the rabbit. So he has a prey drive, he's just using on the wrong things, which I don't need, right? Right. So in order for me to use a prey drive. In um, hey, get out of here. Uh just dog, you know. Prey drive uh uh for different kinds of trainings and protection, I need to wake up that prey drive and it so on flirt pole I will use cotton white cotton sock or I can put the tennis ball in that cotton sock and and moving it around and and and and and start saying to the dog not attack command but search command so I search instead of attack whatever the command I would would that be right so I'm awakening so I'm awakening the uh pre-drive for that particular object okay gotcha for future training which is not protection because I don't use that for protection right the the the let's say in search and rescue I was involved a lot in right what do you think search and rescue dogs do they look for people with sticks or tennis balls or toys that's what they do that's it right there now you know how to what's what's you know how how to train search and rescue so so what I do I I say search and the dog runs to person 15 20 feet from me and when he runs towards it he throws him a ball but he needs to be willing to chase that ball and that's what I do when I use the what's your producer ask me right the the flirt pole or whatever yeah the putting the the victim further and further away and hiding him so the dog looks through hell or high water to find him so he can get the stick being chucked for him but I need to teach the dog to look for the stick to to work for the stick I gotta wake it up in him for that particular object. Remember pre drive is inherited but what is it used on by the dog is learned.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

So by using flirt pole or rolling a tennis ball in front of the puppy I'm teaching him to to to target the object on the flirt pole or the tennis ball or whatever toy um you know on command search but I don't say Dersh which would be attack command for Dersh I'm using defense gotcha okay makes a lot of sense makes a lot of sense so so we we before we start training we gotta think about what are we gonna be training for you know so let's say law enforcement law enforcement is different than protection law enforcement is apprehension most of it the bad guy runs away cop goes open the door points him at the running away bad guy or on put him on the track and say attack command or apprehension command right and dog then runs and chases the bad guy in prey right and and then when he gets him he hits him and bites him the but who is he biting is he biting rabbit or is he biting bad guy and if he's and I'm I'm teaching the dog from lesson number one that he's chasing a bad guy who can hurt him hit him so so so it's a defensive dog in prey drive gotcha right same way as we had a defensive dog in when when the dog is uh um defending his rabbit he's also yeah so you know what I'm trying to say by this is the defense and prey almost never stands on its own they always go together a little bit it does yeah yeah it it really does because even and thinking it from you know a novice view you look at a a dog and say it's uh in a fight you would think like a boxer who's using offense defense at the same time yeah yeah to me yeah yeah right yeah so so you know the the prey drive and defense drive are intertwined okay so uh in my style of training when I'm chasing after okay so the bad guy challenges uh me and the dog goes into defense he barks he escalates the bad guy start running away and I chasing after the bad guy and prey drive feels good so it's a reward to the dog plus it helps me to catch the bad guy who is running away so there's prey defense you see yeah I mean defense prey and and and and I keep going back and forth as the bad guy is running away or the decoy is running away I always tell come back at the dog so he stops and come back at the dog who was chasing him and uh and uh he puts more pressure on him and then he runs away i i forgot one thing i want to say okay meet this here with my hands yeah the the how you can tell if it's prey or defense also one of the ways you asked me right uh the the the the it's the vectors vectors okay didn't we talk about it in the previous podcast i think we may yeah you did on your on your podcast yeah right right so so in prey the the vectors of uh motion of the prey uh and the dog in prey did i say defense in prey are heading the same way that's a prey this is a defense if somebody challenges the dog and he he he he fights back that's defense so you can tell by the vectors if you are in prey or in defense so I can come at the dog and I challenge the dog and I'm in defense though barks I run away and I'm in prey okay right right excellent okay all right well um back to you you you explained your uh out of out of uh obedience course out of drive out of drive of course um well then I have the defense uh the protection video which is uh four videos okay and uh there's all this is explained there from nothing so you don't need to know nothing you know you can you can train a protection dog and you follow the instructions first session you do this you make a video of it you send me the video on Facebook messenger or email or whatever of what's up and I look at it and I say okay you're doing this right you're doing this wrong you need to do this better and next thing you do this in other words it's like as if I would be right there with you all right I train dogs for people all over the world I have clients in right now in Italy Spain Australia you know so so anybody if they purchase this video series get also with the service of uh me coaching them oh yeah yeah yep uh I'm gonna pull that up just so they can see it so they know what what it is but uh yeah Hans I appreciate it once again I had already knew when I this subject comes up so much come here come here come here yeah I'll jump in this is Gobor he he he can explain to you better okay hello everyone about the membership yeah the membership is is uh um um basically that's where you you get feedback from Hans yeah okay the membership yeah the membership and uh it's closed right now we open up uh I don't know a few times a year two three times a year and um so you have to get on the notification list yeah the page you just pop up is uh alpine caninereal.com yes sir yeah so that's where people can upload their issues they're having with uh oh and that's the wait list you're talking about right there join the wait list yeah that's it that's the one okay yeah and uh if you're uh having membership you don't owe the video as if you buy it outright but you can communicate with me and a lot of people do uh uh asking me uh a question about uh their obedience yeah and I'll actually broaden it up uh into uh that they can also ask me questions about protection for 29 bucks a month right now that's shoot that that's that's 29 bucks a month I know okay uh I see old Dan in there I see old Dan in there yeah okay look at all this stuff guys all right well once again um gentlemen I I appreciate y'all and uh everybody please go check out their uh podcast it's a it's a very good one I mean yeah they can they can tap into the podcast uh through that alpine caninereel.com okay the YouTube little symbol that little rectangle with a little triangle in it okay it's it's it's uh it's right over here right yeah I just podcast or you can go to the podcast there yeah there you go all right I think that's 150 or 170 of them yeah of some really good stuff okay well Hans I appreciate you once again brother hey same here all right y'all go check him out we out step into the realm of canine wisdom with our podcast NWA Connie 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