World's Strongest Boerboel: Cold River Boerboel's Exclusive Interview

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

No dog has ever moved that much mile weight. Not no bore bowl, not no pit bull, not no anybody. No dog has ever done that. You know, is is the frame really a 190-pound dog, or is it just, for lack of better terminology, a fat f but from a working perspective, your head doesn't mean anything. If the animal can't can't make it across three acres, you can have the strongest dog in the f world. But if it mentally isn't prepared to do that job that you're asking it to do, it's not gonna move anything at all. It's gonna quit.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

The number one thing a good working dog wants to do is to please its man. Step into the rim of canine wisdom with our podcast, NWA Honey Corso, where we interview dog men and women from around the globe. Discover their talent and insights and breeding, training, nutrition, and the rich history of dogs. Yes, sir, yes sir. We're back for another one. If you ain't been here before, we talk all things dogs with people from all over the world. We got brother Eli in the house, Cold River Porbles in the house. What's going on, man? What's up, brother? How you doing, man? I'm in it to win it. I'm in it to win it. Well, it's a uh honor and a pleasure. You know, you uh you you ain't uh uh you kind of popular, I say. You know what I'm saying? Well, if you're in the in the dog algorith algorithm, you you gonna pop up, you know. Yeah, you it in the board, especially in the Barbara world, they can't deny you. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I'm just me, I ain't nobody special. Yeah, where you from? Pennsylvania. PA. Born and raised?

SPEAKER_03 1:42

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Okay, can't wait. Okay, not much longer. We're getting out of PA.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Oh, okay, okay, okay, cool, cool. Hey, uh, so um I know that uh I'm gonna try to cut through your some of your timeline. I know you've been in a quite a bit different breeds. Working a different breeds uh uh and different things. And one thing I think I was reading, maybe it was your website. You believe in a total dog, you know what I mean? You believe in structural confirmation, workability, all that. You ain't one of these guys that's purely over here and over there because one thing about you I noticed you understand that the totality of the dog what makes the dog. I don't think it's a lot to get there. So yeah. So um the total dog is is it's important, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

It's important. You need an all-around dog. It's it's and for us at least it's right, right.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

So you know a lot for the weight pulling. Don't you got some weight pulling records? And if so, explain those to us.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah, so um in so last year, last year our our our vulnerable son Wukong, he set the uh the new weight pole world record. So he pulled 16,930 some odd pounds, right? So that was a new world record. That was a UPF world record, is what it was. UPF the United Pulling Federation. Um, and then a few months ago, we went back to the Bully Max uh uh sports arena that they have over there, and we we broke the record again. This time, Sun Wukong and his litter mate brother, Mr. Wednesday, they both went out at the same weight at 22,039 pounds. So and and that is not only a UPF world record, but that's a a record in any organization uh in any weight pull organization in in the whole entire world. No dog has ever moved that much amount of weight. Not not no bore bull, not no pit bull, not no anybody. No dog has ever done that.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Wow, okay, okay. You said bully max. I see you you you do a lot of work with them. Are you affiliated with them?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, yeah. We're we're sponsored by Bully Max. So we're as far as I know, we're the only Bore Bowl breeders that are sponsored by a dog food company. I mean, Bully Max believes in what we're doing, they believe in our program, and uh they came to us and they sponsored us, and we've been using their food now and their supplements for a couple of months. Um, and man, it's it's amazing stuff, man. I I have nothing but good stuff to say about it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Oh, okay. All right. Well, we'll we'll get we'll get into the book uh the dog food later because that's something I want to talk to you about. But I noticed, you know, mostly in dogs, um, people think size, the bigger the dog that's gonna make them stronger. But when does weight interfere with work? How do you know?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

So you you don't want a dog that's too heavy, you know. So so if heavy, and when I say too heavy, I mean heavy for its frame. You know, it needs to be balanced out for the frame. So, like if you have a dog, and I'll just use whatever number, that's just you know, you get you got an 80-pound dog. I'm just gonna throw it a number, right? But but it but it has the frame of of a 55-pound dog, then your dog really isn't an 80-pound dog. You just fed it up to that weight, and it's just walking around fat at that weight. So that's where the the problem comes into play. So it's the same thing with the borders, you know. Um, you'll see a lot of people that they boast weight, wait, wait, wait, wait. But when is too much uh a problem, right? So, and and it goes down to the frame of the dog, you know, is the if you have a 90-pound dog, I mean you know, a 190-pound dog, does it have the leg to it? Does it have the length of body? You know, is is the frame really a 190-pound dog, or is it just for lack of better terminology, a fat fuck? You know, you just you know, anybody can do that. It's the same thing with a person, right? Like, you know, we can overeat and just walk around at 300 and something pounds, but are you, you know, five two at 300 pounds? You get what I'm saying? So it's a difference, right? And I think that's that's the the the easiest way to compare that, and that's when it becomes a problem if the dog doesn't have the frame. Now you can have a dog that has the frame. Like our dog, Mr. Wednesday, he's pushing, you know, almost 29 at the shoulder. Uh, he walks around the farm about 195, 194. Uh, when we compete with him, we compete with him between 187 and one and 180. And and um, that's not stuff that we can make up because the dogs get weighed in because there's there's weight classes. So every dog has to get weighed in before it competes. It's public record, so we can't make up numbers, right? So um I wouldn't compete with him at 190. I I he's he's too big for that at that weight. But now bringing him down at 180, 179, you you're already starting to see rib cage on the dog. You're starting to see a tuck, you're starting to see those ribs starting to show. So, what does that tell me, you know, as a trainer or as a conditioner? Okay, this dog has the framework to to compete at 180, at 185. I mean, if I really want to rip him down and and really, you know, get get crazy with it, maybe bring him down to 174 or something like that, but like really lean, lean the dog out. At 180, he's already starting to get lean. So that's where the difference comes into play, uh, where you say what's too much and what's too little. So he has like the frame for that, you know. We're like his brother, Sun Wukong, he has the height, very similar to Mr. Wednesday, but he don't have the the bone density to walk around at 190 pounds. You know, him him walking around unconditioned here at the farm, he's about 173, 175 is what he ranges for, right around there. I compete with that dog at 167, sometimes 159, 158, I'll bring him down. So, and he he has the framework for that. But I would never try to just feed him up to like, you know, 190. Yeah, if I stuff enough food down his face, yeah, he'll hit 290, 100. Is he really that dog? No, he's not, and it's it's not gonna serve me any good, you know, to have to have to try to work him at that weight, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

It's just like right. So while we're there, I want you to help some of the uh our pet parents that's listening. That you know, when they get their puppies, especially you being a Borble guy, you know, the number one thing they gonna be talking about is he is he not getting big enough fast for him? He's not doing this and that. Can you kind of explain to them why you want the puppy to take his time growing?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah, I tell that to people all the time. You know, it's it's detrimental for the joints, you know, the joint health is the biggest thing. Um, so you want a slow and steady growth if you can. Like some dogs are gonna grow a little faster than others just because of a particular line or whatnot, it is. But you just wanna you wanna control the amount of weight that's gonna be on the joints, you know, because you're gonna get, you know, you don't want to you don't want to mess up the hips and elbows to to that extent because it's it's uh it's it's just not good for a growing puppy to hold extra unnecessary weight. I try to tell people, especially they're getting a dog from us, keep it as lean as you can, as as lean as comfortably you can. Um, there's gonna be a time and a place for you to be able to put more weight on the dog. And if you want to add some extra pounds, you can do that, but just wait till he gets out of the growing stage, at least to like 16, 17 months. Then you can say, okay, let now we can add some more weight if the frame calls for it. You know what I mean? Um, but it's it's just not good for them to walk around, especially as a young pup with all that extra unnecessary weight, it's just really bad for the joints. It really didn't right, right.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

So I tell you what, man, um I'm almost 50 now. And one thing I noticed a man ain't shit with a bad back or bad feet, right? So you don't know how much to use your back until you heard it or something like that. But with the feet and a working dog, uh, and being that you're in a sport of uh weight pulling, um how does the science of the ankle, the feet, how do you strengthen those areas and how do they work in conjunction? What what what what percentage of the pull do you think those the the ankles and the feet like that play a part in it?

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Well, I you you know, it that's a good question. And for us, like we're feet, we're feet people over here. You know, um that's one of the things that we look for, because without that's the foundation of the dog, right? You know, uh when when you're looking at it from a working perspective anyway, like that's the foundation of the dog. If your ligaments and tendons are loose in in those feet, in those paws, all that translates up the feet, up in up into the pastures, up into the leg, all that comes down to there. So for us, you know, weight pulling not only exercises the whole body, but it you can see it, especially in dogs or young dogs that are that are loose in the pastures, that are splay foot. If you start doing that exercise with them in moderation, you know, nice controlled weight, you see the feet start to get closer, closer together. It starts to strengthen those tendons right here. And then for us that do it at a professional level, that means a lot because we get more power. You know, the power starts here and then it translates to the rest of the body. So when you do, you know, uh weight pulling, especially like on a slight incline or as much of an incline as you can get responsibly, you see that all that starts to strengthen up really nice and tight. And the power, you know, I firmly believe the power starts to right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Now, I know that uh I've been hearing you talk here and there, a little experts on the science of it all, like, ooh, God, you know, but I noticed when you before we got on, you got up, and I thought I was looking at the incredible hulk for a minute. So have you ever did like any powerlifting and anything like that in your your life? No, I mean I work out, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

I've worked out I'm a fat fuck right now. Uh but but uh I you know just worked out and and just been that that that guy that's into nutrition and and working out and it just translates over into the dogs into the dogs, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Yeah. So uh pit bulls, you gotta kind of love for them too, huh?

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yeah, that's the original breed for sure. I mean, uh my personal opinion, you know, um, there's probably not no, there's probably no more versatile dog on the planet than a well-bred American pit bull terrier.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

It's just you know, it's it's a decline in the breed, it's a decline in the ownership, um, you know, the the nonsense that comes along with the breed nowadays, uh, you know, I probably always own at least one of them, but it's just not the same.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

So it's an amazing breed of dog, it really is. The cultures of uh dog communities can yeah, can jack things up. Um so being that you had started out in that breed, and this are one of the baddest working breeds, probably America's number one working breed, hands down, right? How uh was it difficult transitioning into that size dog into the Borables? Um for its performance, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

So for us, not necessarily. Um, so I'll give you a little bit of history. So we had the American Pitbull Terrier, and I also had for quite some time a specific line of pitbull that was called, they called it the Whopper Dogs. Realistically, um, and and those good, those guys were, you know, 80, 90, sometimes 110 pound dogs. Um the American Pitbull Terrier really isn't that that size. Um they crossed some something into it. Whopper dogs and dagger dogs is what they called them. Those dogs had something else crossed into them to get them that size. But they did that. It was it was um it turned into a beat a hell of a weight-pulling dog. Um and they created, you know, a dynasty based off of those two different lines, dagger dogs and whopper dogs. Um and so I have the experience with some of those guys. So coming into the borable, you kind of just it just kind of transitions over. Um, and for us, uh, you know, the mechanics of a dog is the mechanics of a dog, whether it's it's a chihuahua or it's a borable. Like it's you know, everything's still kind of the same. You look for the croup, you look for the angulation in the rear, you look at the pastures, you look at the feet, whether it's on a chihuahua or it's on a boarball. It's it's it's pretty much the same. It's just about how do you raise them then for the sport. You know, that's where the difference comes into play. The American Pitbull Terrier, you know, has lines of dogs for generations now that have been bred specifically for weight pulling. Uh, then they have the you know the crossover of the whopper dogs and the dacker dogs, uh, and those dogs were crossed and specifically for weight pulling and for for for moving heavy weight. And they were very successful with those two lines of dogs. Where coming into the Borball, there isn't any of that. Like there's no nothing when it when it comes to that. So you just kind of have to use a little bit of common sense and use the knowledge that we have from those those breeds of dogs and kind of just transition over here and just say, okay, what applied over there, I'm just gonna apply it over here, and I'm gonna apply it on how we pick out dogs for temperament and workability, excuse me, infrastructure, and just move that information from that box and put it into this box, and and let's just see how it turns out. And that's kind of what we've been doing, and it's been working so far for us anyway.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

How long you been in the borables?

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Been in the borables now for about I think it's like six years, six or seven years now.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you okay, so with the with you being a working pooling and stuff like that, what what made you gravitate to the borables you start to pick for your program? It was was it what the breeder was doing, or it was just what you just kind of naturally saw?

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, so we we we got a borable, and it was just gonna be just a regular farm dog here on the property, and that's what she was. Um, and then we got a second borable, and um it was funny because we had one in really, really good shape, and people were like, There were in an uproar about it, like you can't do that to a bore. And like, why not? Why can't you have it? It's not a pit bull. That's usually what they were saying. They're like, it's not a pit bull, you can't do that. I'm like, well, why not? You know, why why can't you have it in good shape? Why can't you do that? So um that kind of that's what kind of started the wheel, started to turn, right? And then um after quite some time, my wife and I were just talking, and we're like, well, if we get another dog, I just don't want to breed just to breathe, right? You know, um, we talked about it, and well, what is lacking in the breed that we can see, you know, that what we saw at the time, and it was well, I don't see anybody doing anything at all with the breed dog, you know, and I'm not knocking anybody. Hey, you want to just breed just to breathe? That's on you. For us, it was like, you know, coming from the competitive side, it was just a hard pill to swallow just to do it, just to do it. And I'm like, well, we got to do something with them, you know. And obviously, not everybody has a farm, not everybody has stuff, you know, that way. And what's the original intent of the dog? The original intent of the dog is an estate guardian dog. So um, you know, yeah, I can do that, but you know, again, how do I how do I test my stock? How do I show workability? How how do I say as a breeder, well, I am doing something other than just saying, I hey, yeah, I'm breeding for X, Y, Z, but how do I show that? How do I prove that? Right. Um, and coming from the world of the American Pitbull Terrier, you know, you can't make claims like that in that world. You know, they want receipts, you know, they want to see what that workability, let me see the titles, let me see the dogs on the track, let me see, you can't make blanket claims like that and not get called out on. So for us, we're like, well, why not, you know, how do we do that? So we just went back into what we knew, which was, you know, the sport, the sport world. And um, I put a dog in a harness and we started putting her through through like uh, I put her through like a mock keep. I want to say it was maybe like a five or six week keep. I said, let me just see how she handles it. And she did amazing. And she did fantastic. And the light bulb just went off. I seen the workability, I seen the uh the potential there. So we ended up getting another dog and immediately put that one right into a key and just started, I said, let's see how this goes. And then I saw the potential in the breed, and I'm like, wow, there is a lot of potential here if you just tap into it and then that's the test for me. And then we just that's how we started going. And every dog that we had, even if we don't go to a show, every dog gets put into a key, you know, a minimum, you know, eight to ten week key just to see if they physically can handle the workload and then mentally handle the stress that comes along with that, you know. And if they can handle that, then that's a dog that that that stays here, gets added to the program. Um, and if it can't, then on to the next one, no big deal, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

How many borables do you you normally keep?

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Uh, we got six right now.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Six, yeah. You know what? That's what I noticed. Programs are they ain't running them 20, 30, uh 30 dogs no more. It's not, yeah, it's just too much.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

You need the space, you know what I'm saying? You need the imagine 20 borables, you know. Yeah, you need space, you know. Um, and even if you do have the space, man, it's a lot of food, a lot of time. Yeah, it's not a dog that I probably just want to have just out in the kennel doing fucking nothing all day.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah, you know, I I wouldn't look forward to doing that. So you can't do nothing with that many dogs. You can't do that. Even even when you see some of these people, some of these breeders in Africa, again, more power to them. That's their business. But when they got 20, 30, I see one kennel look like they had like 50. They could say something like 50 morbles out, you know, just you're seeing them everywhere, you know, and in these kennels. How do you spend that much time with every dog? Like, how do you know what's with each dog's personality and corks and this and that, and the trainability and that dog and this dog? I I don't know. I mean, if they can do with more power to them, I just can't. I I just don't mean at least not for me.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

No, that's too that's too that's that's way too much. And and you know, uh dogs ain't selling like that, you know, like people think they are. It it ain't they people get in and think they finna move some puppies shit. You be sitting on them joints five, they be five, six months. They've been on graduated college with you.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, it's it's different, it's different. And even with us, you know, we have dogs that you know, like like son was the first Borball to um we ADBA registered him. So we went and that's one of the things that we did with him. We went and we went into the Lions then. We went and we went right into ADBA. We sort of competed against the top people with the American Pitbull Terrier. So uh 2023 it was, he became an ADBA national champion. Um, the first Borebull to ever do that, the first Borbull to become an ADBA most weight pool national champion, um, and the first Borbull to ever receive an ace title with with the ADBA. So uh, you know, we're over there competing with you know with with the big guys, you know, with some of the best trainers in the c in in the country. So that for us is what we need in our program. And even with doing stuff like that, with dogs that you're they're different stuff, you know, you know, people still don't don't you know don't always understand what it is you're doing different, you know. And that's why they should probably get a dog, you know, from something doing something different, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Right, right. You you you speak on the keep, right? And then we know uh nutrition is poor important in the keep. Um we can segue into the bully max. What what what does bully max do for you that other feed previous uh didn't?

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Well, what I what I like is the no corn, wheat, or soy on that. I had dogs that were that were having reactions on their paws, like they're in between the paws, we're flaring up and we're trying to figure out where the hell that's coming from. You know, and it's good food and expensive stuff, you know. Um once we switched over to bully match. All that disappeared. All of that, you know, all of that went away. That for me, just that alone right there. I'm so you know, just that right there. Because, you know, it's nothing more frustrating than putting eight to ten weeks into a dog because you're getting ready to go to a show, and then now you can't go because his feet swelled up because of whatever ingredient caused him to have that reaction to it. You know, that's that's a waste of time, waste of money, waste of supplements. I mean, time, you know, it's it's just it's frustrating, and that's where we were at. That that was starting to happen. We're trying to figure it out like what is happening here. And I and I knew it had to be food related at that point. Based on everything we've done before, I'm like, it has to be food related. Um, and when we switched over to that, all that disappeared, all that disappeared.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

So and that's and that's important too because you physically can see the inflammation that the food is causing. And being a guy like you working, you you thinking about the joints. How's joints feeling, you know, on something like that? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

And then being a foot person, I understand how how important it is to have good feet, right? Especially like weight pulling, you know, it's all starting right there. The dogs are gripping the carpet, pulling themselves forward. They, you know, their feet need to be in really good health. And that just was beyond frustrating. Beyond frustrating. So just when when when that got when we got rid of that alone, I'm like, I'm sold, you know. Um, and uh another thing is the 600 calories, you know, the calories are uh really big things for us. Um, the more calories you can get in, you know, the less food you actually have to feed. So the calories are very, very big things for us, especially on a working dog.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

You know, that's that's a big plus.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Do you do you feed do you are you able to feed less volume-wise on the Bully Max? Bully Max, y'all about to send me a check now. I'm talking about this food. Hey, yeah, hey, I want 10% of whatever he's getting now.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, yeah. So anytime the calorie intake is that high, you feed, you feed way less food. Like the one time I tried this one food. Um, I I'm not gonna say the name of it, whatever. But so I tried the one food just to try. It was like a salmon rice thing. And I tried I tried that with Mr. Wednesday. So to keep weight on him, um, especially a dog that's that's working a lot, spending a lot of time in indoor, outdoor, you know, doing that stuff, uh, and running around the farm, plus getting ready for competition. I mean, I was feeding him 10, 12, 13, sometimes 14 cups of food a day, which is which is a lot of food. And anything less than that, he was not holding weight. And and and listen, and we go through a good deworming program here. Dogs are worm constantly. You know, again, you know, you want to compete at the top level, you've got to go down the list and you know, and and do all that type of stuff. So if that that's not the issue, it was the only way to keep the the weight on the dog, you know, um, especially when he's working, working so much. Now on the bully max, he gets six to seven cups of food a day. On a 180, you know, pound dog that's competing, walking around at 190 some odd pounds.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

You know, and again, I'm just using weight as a reference, not as a flagship. It's just so you understand how much we cut, you know, the food was able to get cut in half like that. You know, um, obviously, winter time, there's if they're spending more time outside in the winter, then you're gonna bump the food up a little bit more than that. You know, obviously you want to have a little bit extra weight on the dog if they're spending a lot of time outside in the winter. But like right now at this time of the year, six, seven comes to food day. That's it. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Well, I'll I'll say this. Well, that's important that you what you just said that you don't have to put all that dang on. That's a lot of feed. A lot of feed. I mean, God, late.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

And and then and and then you you your your chances of bloat increases, you know, because it's it's it's it's just it's this much fucking food in the dog, in the stomach, you know. And then if you got them, you know, that started to be a concern for us, you know. I'm like, man, you start worrying, I'm like, I'm feeding it that much. Yeah, you know, man, I'm just I'm like, it's only a matter of time. What am I gonna do? Crate everybody after they eat and put them away for you know an hour, two hours and stuff. And these guys don't like to be crated though, you know, they don't like it. Um, so that was a big concern for us. Um, and that was that's another big huge plus going over the food like Bully Max, the the 600 calories, you know, for their their their pearl that they have.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Right, right. Um as far as uh litters and stuff, you you you're still doing good on uh healthy litters and all that. Food plays a part in that.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

So food plays a part in that. I I know you've probably been around long enough. You heard that one the one food brand that starts with with a V that was messing up the bully dogs for a long, long time. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Oh yeah, yeah. We had to we had to, I was calling my buddies, uh, and because we were having uh the the the female heat cycles was was off. And we was like we're tired of switch. And this I'm speaking on it's another food out right now. I ain't gonna you know, we ain't gonna call it on names. Yeah, yeah. Just be hype foods, yeah. You know, I'm the podcast man, so you know they always emailing me, giving me information. Hey, this hype food is uh again messing up my dog heat cycle. I told them, change because I already been hearing about it. Sure. Call me back, change the food. Oh, she went in the heat. Went in the heat, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yeah, I haven't had any problem with heat cycles. I mean, I just had a little uh literal pups from Mr. Wednesday a few months back, 14 puppies. Uh my dogs have been pretty consistent, you know. I only have like two females that you know, they're a little bit funky, they've always been funky. And when I say funky, instead of going every every five, uh five or six months, they kind of go like every seven or eight months.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

But that's like I got one like that too. Yeah, she's always been that way.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Always been like, you know, if they're not missing cycles or they're not going a year and a half without anything, or I'm not missing breedings or anything like that. It's again, and and then we I have other friends that are that are that are sponsored as well by Bully Max, and they've they've you know, we we talk about it, right? You know, they pick up the phone, hey, how you doing? And they have been you know nothing but you know successful on the stuff. I'm sold, man. I I gotta be honest, what when we first got into it, I was like, well, we'll see. We'll see how this is gonna work. All we can do is give it a shot. And if it if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, right? Right. I'm sold. I'm sold.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Yeah, yeah. But you wouldn't feed it if it's hurting your dogs, it's gonna hurt everything.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, listen, I like competing, um, and I compete the regardless whether I get first, second, or third. For us, it's about showcasing the workability in our program, regardless of the place that that that we get. But with that being said, of course I want to win, you know, of course I want to do well, of course I want to be as as best as you know, be the best I can be in in my field that that that I'm in. So if I thought this was hindering us in any way, shape, form, or fashion, I I wouldn't be out of it.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Gotcha, gotcha. So you asked you asked the dog to pull a lot of weight. Yeah. What kind of supplements do you use if you use any?

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah, yeah. So so we got a we got a whole different uh we got a whole line of supplements from Bully Max from BCAs to uh glucosamine and chondritin, um, which are very important. I I think even if you're not competing and you have a large breed dog like this, they should be on a regular dose of glucosamine and chondritin. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Yeah, 100%, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Um, so you know, uh a multivitamin, 100%, you know, that they need to be on a multivitamin. Um and BCAs are very, very important, especially when you're trying to build muscle uh and hold muscle, ligament tendons, and health like that. So, you know, they're all they're on all that type of stuff. I mean, these guys eat like athletes, you know, they eat like athletes, yeah, laid out proportioned, you know, the supplements, everything, everything's there.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Right, right. So um you talk a lot about the hips, I've heard you uh mention um the angulation, the back legs being the engine of the dog that goes back to when you were talking about the total, total dog. Kind of explain to the audience a little bit about structure, the back end, how it works, and the helping you and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Yeah, so again, I I a lot of that has to do when coming from you know the world of the American Pitbull Terrier. Even in the show ring, I forget, I don't want to misquote what percentage of the dog, but in that world, the rear assembly of the dog is judged very, very heavily. You know, um the ADBA like the judges, that's one of the first things that they look at, and and that holds a really big chunk of the score, if you want to call it a score. When when they're looking at your dog and they're dissecting each dog to each other, the rear assembly is is one of the first things that they look at because that's the drivetrain of the animal. That's where the power originates from, you know. Uh and if we look at a dog like that, where its original purpose was a fighting dog, right? In in in the box, it was that you couldn't have a weak rear end, right? That's where the power generated from. So even today, when the dogs aren't being used for that, this the judging standard for the dog goes right to the rear because of the original purpose of the dog, right? So coming from that world, you you learn to appreciate the importance of a good put-together rear assembly. So for us, when we're looking at dogs like that and we're evaluating dogs, it we just can't help it. Like it just we I just gravitate to that. Um, and it starts off at the croup, you know, the angulation of the croup. You want a slight angulation of the croup, you don't want it flat, you don't want it over-angulated, so you you know, you've got that huge slope. You just want enough, enough of a pitch there, and then because and then the rest of the the stifles fall into play nicely. But when when that's off, you know, then you start to get dogs that are straighter stifled, especially if you're over-angulated, you know, in the croup, then the straight stifleness comes and so on and so on. So it starts there and it works its way down. But it's for us, that is one of the most important things for us. Where, you know, which if you look at like the breed standards, like if we're talking about like a salve standard, right? The SAVs emphasizes on the head and the front assembly, which I understand the importance of that because that's like the flagship of the dog when it comes to SAVs. You know, they they they they they put a lot of emphasis on the head, the structure. They want they want it to look the part of of the borbell, and they put a a big chunk of the scoring goes to the head, which I understand the importance of that, but from a working perspective, fucking head doesn't mean anything if the animal can't can't make it across three acres, you know, to the other side, you know, to protect my you know, sheep or there's an intruder or whatever the hell is going on over here. What good does a giant ass head do for me if it can't move correctly? So, especially in the sporting well world, the rear assembly is is is where we start with with the animal and then we work our way forward.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

What what what are those things called? Uh y'all don't do the shows. The what do you call the evaluations y'all doing aborable? Um, I always forget. Um the appraisals. Appraisals.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Uh do you do you do you participate in those or you I do from time to time.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

You know, I have a love relationship with me. We're gonna fucking get pissed off when I talk about it. I have a love-hate relationship with the appraisal system. And look, and some people say, Oh, well, he you must have dogs that scored, you know, bad or whatever. And that's always go to that. No, look, Mr. Wednesday's a 92 point, whatever. His daughter's a 90-something, whatever, at at you know, 15 months. I don't an appraisal score is just one thing, right? From a working perspective, it means absolutely nothing. You know, it it means nothing, right? I can you can have a 92, a 95, a 98, but if the the fucking dog can't perform what I needed to perform, that score means absolutely nothing to me. Nothing. Um, and especially where, you know, and and this isn't it a knock at any organization that does appraisals. It's just that, you know, when you sometimes you see dogs that are have flaws that are affect the movement, right? And that have a high appraisal score. Like they're high in the rear, they're straight stifled, but they got a score in the 90s. It's like, how were you scored in the 90s when the drivetrain of the fucking animal is it's it's already messed up, right? But it's but it's because if you look at their scoring system, you know, objectively, it's because they put so much focus on the front assembly. And I say the front is really the front. So like they their their response is, well, there's more than one way to get a high score on the other parts of the animal. And I get that from a points perspective, but from a working perspective, it doesn't make any sense to me. You know, it just doesn't make any sense to me because if your rear assembly is jacked up, what like what does it matter? You know, and then sometimes for people that don't know, that are new to the breeds, you know, like they they focus so much on a scoring system, instead of looking at the dogs that are in front of them, they all say, Well, I'm gonna take a dog that's in the 90s over here, and um, I want to breed it to this dog that's in the 90, right? And instead of looking at the dog's flaws, they're just looking at numbers, right? Because if that dog's in the 90s and this dog's in the 90, if I put them together, I must get 90s. Shit, I'm gonna get hundreds. You know, you're gonna that's their perspective of it. But then when you look at the flaws on each dog, you say, well, wait a minute, these flaws match each other. This dog is high in the rear and straight, stifled, this one's high in the rear, straight, stifled, and then they just produce a whole litter of high in the rear, straight, stifled dogs. They might have nice, beautiful headpieces, but they're high in a rear and straight stifled. So it what how does that better the breed then, right? Um, I don't know, and I'm sure that's gonna agitate a bunch of people that I said that, but it's the truth, it is the truth, and plus let me let me add to the agitation because I struggle with it too.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

I gotta go to a confirmation show this weekend, and when you talk about the show world, it's basically about hiding flaws. So you know your dog ain't perfect, but I know I gotta, you know, I gotta try to hide it, and then I'm like that's that's that's a handler's job.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Like handlers that get paid, you know, to do that, right? They do their job well, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:30

When they stack a dog, they hide it really fucking well until until the gate comes out. When it's time to move the dog, yeah, all that stacking goes out the window, and that's when that's when you know the flaws come out as soon as that dog starts the gate, you know. But their job, again, as soon as you stop is to and hide it. And they do a great fucking job at it, you know. I'm not knocking them for it, and and I'm not knocking anybody's appraisal system. You know, it's just for for me, I don't hold that as much weight on the appraisal system for any organization as I do a working title. You know, that means more to me than than the appraisal score, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so uh that let me touch back on um on the puppy uh uh growth and and everything. Um we like you might have said it, but I if if if if you didn't just you know help help me out here. So, like for this is for more the pet parents. Um if they start and a lot of them don't understand structure, but what do you do for weak ankles and you know knuckling over and uh things people might run into as puppies when you tell your buyers?

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Well, it's gonna depend. You gotta look at why that's happening, right? Is it if a you have the animal in a crate that's too that's too small, right? That's another thing that'll cause dogs to start going down on their pastures. You know, you have people that, well, I gotta go to work, so I stick them in a crate, which I'm not against that, right? But sometimes you got to realize these guys grow really fast. And if you get a dog that's constantly looking down like this to look out to look out the door because the crate's too small, all you're doing is putting all that weight, that pressure back on back, back on those pastures, and it's constantly doing that. What is it gonna do? Especially on a giant breed dog where all of that, all of those tendons are all loose. So if it's constantly doing that, guess what? It's constantly gonna keep you putt pressure, it's bending all that. And I've seen that happen. I've seen that happen. Um, I've seen people mess up feet because they put them in um I forget what they were called for a while, but you see them a lot with like um the bully people with the Frenchies. They had them like those stacking crates where they would stick a bunch of Frenchies in and stack them up like the cages where the feet, you know. I've seen people do that with border balls, they stick them in crates like that with the feet, and then what does it do? It splays the dogs out right away.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Because they're walking around on that grate, that great, that that that great. I'm like, you can't do that to a giant breed dog. But you're not doing that with a dog that's growing that fast, you know, all you're doing is spreading the feet out like that. And and I've seen it happen. So you gotta look at you gotta try and assess why that's happening. You know, is it environmental? You know, um, is is there, you know, is there an issue just with the dog is just growing too fast, you know. Um, a lot of the times, and and and some people hate when you say, you know, elevate the food and stuff like that. You don't necessarily have to elevate the food. That's a big thing. That that's the easiest thing to go to. Elevate the food, you you put them up on their tippy toes and you start practicing that. But going up steps, just taking the dog up and down steps a lot of the times will strengthen that, you know, you know, because you you have that weakness, or depending on the age of the dog, you put them in a weight bull harness and we go drag just some light weight up a slight hill. That starts to strengthen because they're grabbing the ground and they're using that every step, they're starting to use those ligaments and tendon, and it starts to straighten it up. So there's stuff like that. Um, ester C ester C is another another good thing to give them, especially when when they're doing that, you know, ester C is a really good thing to do. Um, so it's kind of those things where you gotta look at what's happening, assess what is it that they might be causing it to do, and then kind of take it from there.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Right, right. Would you consider yourself a purist when it comes when it comes to dogs?

SPEAKER_01 40:26

You know, I want to say yes and no. I'm gonna say I was for the longest time, like is especially even with the portable. Like when I first got into it, it was like you can't have any black, you can't have the black.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

You know, I'm trying to get you in trouble at the beginning of that.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

I was like, no, no, I don't want a K-line dog, I don't want the black.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

But then when you start, excuse me, I'll spin every word, but when you start looking at, you know, and really diving into the history, it doesn't make any sense to me to be a purist when it comes to it. It doesn't. Um regardless of what they say, what they they they walked around, they picked out 70 some odd dogs uh across South Africa. No history of the dogs, just yes, portable, no, borable, yes, borable, no borable, yes, porable, no, no, no, no. I'm sure. Listen, only they knew, but I'm sure there were some black dogs that they said no to. You know what I'm saying? I mean, they're just random dogs along a farm. We don't have no idea of what their background was. They just walk.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Same story here on my end, on the course, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

So so so to be a purist of what? Of background, you know what I mean? Right. Um, and I get it, you know, some people's arguments to that will say, well, there was uh a breeder that came out at some point in time and said that yes, that they mixed something into the dog. Okay, great. But you know, if you want to argue that, you can say, well, it's still a developmental breed, right? It's still in that stage. So you it's it you can go back and forth with that. Now, if I look at it from a working dog perspective, I don't give a fuck if the dog is purple.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

As long as it does its job, right? As long as it does its job. So um, the black dog thing, I'm over that. I'm over it. Um I think the AKC needs to get over it. I think everybody just look, it's there. Sabs, Sabs already, you know, allows it. Um, NABA allows it and stuff like that. All these other organizations, the same thing with the black and tans. If you really look into the history of black and tan borbels, black and tan has popped up as as long as you can look at the history, the black and tan has popped up. The same thing with the dilutes slash blues, you know, dogs. They popped up throughout the Bordels history for a very, very long time. So, what is there to be purist about? If those color yeah, you might say, well, it's not ideal for the standard. Okay, I can I can take that.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Okay, there it is. Yeah, right there.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

I can see I can see somebody says, Well, that's not what we want for the standard, that's not ideal for the standard. Okay, I accept that. I can accept that. But to say that that's was never part of the breed or something like that, look at the history of it, and you really dig deep, and black and tans have always popped up, dilutes have always popped up, you know, and so on and so on. So you can say, well, that's not to standard, and I okay, I can agree with that. Somebody is, but those colors have always been there, they've always been there.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

So yeah, so you know, when you get into that borable, the course of press, they got similar stories where a dog was put in somewhere, and then, like you said, you know, the standard gonna say this, and I'm I'm kind of saying, Well, okay, yeah. So some of the arguments are getting old. They get they get real old, old.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

It gets old. And look, like if you look at the AKC, what they're doing, they're saying, we're not even gonna register any dog that has a black dog in this pedigree at all. They call it the caging, you know, right? Even though the dog itself isn't doesn't carry it, they just call it a caging pedigree. And they do the research on your dog. They say, you know, no, your dog has one black dog six generations back, right? So we're not gonna let you, you we're not gonna let, you know, a KC registered you know okay how much more that can it handle long-term, you know, right when we're talking about genetic diversity, right? So because there is a lot of dogs now that have some form of a black ancestor because it's accepted from the original SABs, you know, the mother organization, if you want to call it that, they accept black dogs now. So it's normal for them to breed dogs, you know, with black in it. They just put the put the K on the on the pedigree, and that's that. There's gonna come a point in time where the AKC, I feel, is probably gonna genetically put themselves in a corner, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Right. I could be wrong. You know what? I'll uh I ain't gonna tell you who this is, but pretty large warble breeder. I ain't gonna name his name. I was talking to him and he was telling me that the Zach thing talking about it already needs some diversity involved. I said, Well, why? He said, Man, my uh he said, I don't had a few that I've broke down in four years. Just broke down. I'm like, how is that because they too big in some of the lines are just too big and sloppy?

SPEAKER_01 45:10

I I I think that's just because they're not doing anything with that. This is what happens when you remove functionality out of a dog. Yeah, that happens not just with the board, but it happens when every breed, right? Yeah, you remove the functionality out of the breed, well, of course they're gonna fucking fall apart.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Right.

unknown 45:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Look what happened with the with the German Shepherd, right? When you look at the AKC show version of the German Shepherd, what did they start to do? They it lost the functionality, right? It's a dog, it's you know, they wanted that glide. Well, what how did that really improve the functionality of the dog? It did, it was cool to look at, I guess, you know, to see a dog in that you know shape like this, going like that. But what happened long term, right? Those dogs fall apart. I think that's kind of the same thing, not only with the boar, but with with any breed that starts to lose its original purpose/slash functionality. And that's what happens when you just you breed dogs just to breed dogs. And I'm not knocking anybody that does that, right? Like, hey, that's you gotta feed it, you gotta take care of it. But the reality is when you ask questions of, well, why are they falling apart? Because you're breeding them to fall apart. You're not doing anything with dogs to test whether or not they can physically handle the workload or more importantly, mentally handle the stress of the workload, you know, because that's a big thing too. You can have a dog that can physically do it, but is is he gonna be mentally there, you know, to be able to handle the stress of the workload? And I coldheartedly believe that that's what's gonna be the downfall of a breed like this.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Let me ask you this is this wishful thinking or just uh observation, you know, when you think of AKC, you think about paperwork, paperwork, even a even a damn uh puppy buyers, sure they don't give a damn what's on paperwork, they just want it like for as a birth certificate.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

And even that people know right, right. Do you think things can possibly change, especially when you got the show and the working world, if the AKC geared more things to working things?

SPEAKER_01 47:12

I I don't I don't know. Well, you know, I don't think it's gonna change because you can turn around and you can say, okay, you know what? I don't want to do AKC. Okay. You can say, I don't want to do AKC, right? Now would you go? Well, you can go UKC. UKC has more sporting more sporting events than AKC does.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Technically, from a sporting dog perspective, UKC has more sporting dog events than AKC does. So you can go to UKC and do fast cat, dock diving, weight pulling. You can, you know, then the list goes on and on, you know, barn dog stuff. There's so there's a huge and they have a lot of working title per se, things for you to do with your dog to try to. So I don't necessarily think it's a registration issue. I think it's more of an owner slash reader issue.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Because the registrations are gonna do what they do, they're just here to provide you paperwork.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Yeah, some of them are here to provide you title work, right? You know, titles to go with your paperwork so you can prove that you as the breeder or the owner fucking did something with your dog, whether it's you know, chasing a bag down the field, a fast cat, or or it's weight pulling, or or you walked into the fucking showrink and just, you know, did the show ring. That's what they're there for, right? It's whether or not you as the owner are gonna do that, or the breeder decides that they're gonna do that, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

As much as we want to blame some of the registries for it or the organizations, is it really their fault?

SPEAKER_00 48:42

No, because the decisions fall on the breed clubs and they give it to the AKC, yeah. So yeah, that's a good point. Um, you uh how do you keep your dogs mindset, motivated without them without them losing uh their their their drive, and what do you do if you see one kind of losing? What do you do to pick them up?

SPEAKER_01 49:15

So it's a little different for us because we have the experience, right? So um I have almost 30 years of experience myself in in weight pooling and working dogs, training, conditioning, nutrition. Um, you add my wife in into the picture, she's been doing it with me for almost 20 years. We've been together 19 years. So if you combine us together, we have almost 50 years of training, conditioning, you know, uh feeding dogs the correct way, right? For this type of shows and competitions. So for us, it's it's a little more second nature than somebody just coming into that. So that that and that's I kind of have to use say that before I go any farther, right? Um, you know, so it's a little different for us. But it's um it's a slow process. So when like when you're getting into the sport, and a lot of this happens to a lot of people that first get into it, they think it's about moving the weight, they think it's about the strength. I gotta get the dog stronger, I gotta get the dog physically stronger. What do I gotta do? I gotta keep putting more weight, more weight, more weight to drag. You know, how do I keep doing stuff like that? And it's not, it's not about it's about slowly mentally preparing the dog for the stress that's gonna come along with that. Because you can have the strongest dog in the fucking world, but if it mentally isn't prepared to do that job that you're asking it to do, it's not gonna move anything, it's not gonna move anything at all, it's gonna quit, it's gonna stop. So, as a as a trainer, you slowly increase the workload. You slowly increase the workload. You never want a dog to stop, you never want them to quit. You want them to you want to build up their confidence. So when the the weight does get really heavy and they gotta buckle down and start really putting their body into it, in their mind, they've never failed. They've never failed. So, in their mind, I'm fucking Superman. I got this because every time he's asked me to move this, it's always moved. No matter how heavy it is back here, I as long as I tried, it moved. And it's like that I think with any training, you know, you you never want a dog to fail. So that's the biggest thing is never letting them fail. Because once you let them fail, man, that's gonna put you back so fucking far. You know, it's it's months of retraining from the mental perspective. The physical for us is easy now, right? Because we've been doing it so long. The mental part is the part that you really have to baby, you really have to watch. Um, and sometimes it means either giving a dog an extra day off, sometimes it means you know, you're taking your dog out to the field, you're getting ready, and you're just looking at the dog and go, now you're not feeling it today, buddy. You just don't, you look like you're stiff, you just don't look like you're yourself, like people, right? You know, sometimes, and then sometimes you so you have to decide which one is it, right? Is it the dog's just having a bad day or the dog generally needs some more rest, right? You know, you know, which one is it? And you, as the trainer now and the nutritionist and and and the manager of the dog, you have to make that call because unfortunately they don't speak English. They can't tell you, yes, you know, you have to make you have to be looking at your dog and say, you know what, bud, we're not even gonna do this today. You know what? Let's just go for a walk. Let's just go for a walk and then take it back. You know what? I'm just gonna massage you down now for the next 45 minutes. I'm gonna give you a good muscle massage for 45 minutes. I'm gonna rub you down. I'm gonna take you, I'm gonna put you in this cold tank for maybe like, you know, two or three minutes. I'm gonna walk you out, and then and then that's it. We're done for the night. We're not even gonna do nothing. We didn't do nothing. And then we'll take it back up tomorrow. Tomorrow I might look at the dog and go, okay, you're ready to work. You know what? No, you're not ready today. You know what? I'm gonna give it an extra day off. Even though I already marked it on my on my schedule that we're supposed to be doing that, you're gonna have to pivot and turn, but you have to observe your dog, you gotta look at it, you're gonna go, no, we're not doing that today, because you just look like you're not feeling it, right? And that's how it is. But you have to decipher, is it is it the dog? And then some dogs just don't want it, just aren't there. That's just not their thing. They're just not, you know, you gotta make that decision. You're gonna look at the dog. Does the dog is the dog present? Does the dog wanna be here or is the dog just having a bad day? You know, and I and you know, and you say, Man, we're having a lot of bad days, buddy. What you you you're looking like you really not really into what we're doing, you're having a lot of bad days. I just don't think this is for you, you know. Okay, all right, on to the next one. You know what I'm saying? I'll find you a good home. You know what I mean? No, no problem. This is not for you, you know. Or you look at your dog and you say, Man, I've been putting the work with you. You just need some extra time off. And then some dogs just need a little more time to mature, you know. Sometimes you can look at a dog and see the potential and just go, you know what? And I see that more with more with males than what I do with females, but you look at a dog and you just go, you know what? I just think you just need a little more time to mentally mature. We're done. I'm gonna put you up for the next you know, four months. We're just gonna hang out and be a dog. We're just gonna chill together. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do some obedience work with you. I'm gonna get you in tune. We're gonna, we and you are gonna learn how to be a team, right? Um, and for me, I'm I'm always big on obedience. You know, you your dog learns you, you learn the dog just by doing simple, dumb obedience stuff. You guys learn how to be a team, you learn how to read the dog, the dog learns how to read you just by doing those simple things, and then you know what? We'll we'll have at it again. We'll have at it again. And and if and if you still not there, then I'll make the call, whether or not, you know, I want to try and give you a little more time or this just isn't for you. But a lot of the times when I've done that with dogs and I looked at them and said, you know what? I'm just gonna put you up for a little bit. We're done. We're done for the next six months. We're just we're just gonna be a dog. We're just gonna hang out, we're gonna do obedience stuff, you know, we're gonna do some fun stuff together. I'm gonna learn you, you're gonna learn me, and take it from there. I'm gonna say eight times out of ten, the dog has made it. You know, the dog just needed a little bit more more time to mature and sit back. But you got to make those calls, you know. You good you have to learn that. And I think that comes with maturity, and that comes with doing it with a lot of dogs, doing it with a lot of dogs. So it's a hard thing to explain to people, but you have to go through a bunch of dogs to really kind of learn that and appreciate that and be able to say, you just need to relax for a little bit and just be a fucking dog for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

That's right, that's right. I got one more question for you. Um, maybe two. But uh temperament.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

I'm gonna keep going.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

Okay. Temperament. How does uh how does the borable temperament suppose it look? What are you looking for? How important is it?

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Uh for us, it's really, really important, especially again with my background here. We got you know, we got the farm and I got five children here that are homeschooled. So my kids are a very big important part of everything that we do day in and day out. And I didn't understand it until I actually started having children. You know, I got young kids. We just started having kids within the last 10 years. So my kids are kids. Okay. So what people used to say to me all the time, but you'll get it when you have kids, or kids are really, you know, really bring out a bulletproof a dog, you know, if if because kids are unpredictable, they move funny, they they do stupid things, they they drop stick, they're loud, they're this, they're that. It, you know, so I need a sound dog when it comes to that. I don't need a spooky dog that's being spooked out by any little thing that the kids do. Um, not that a child is supposed to be, you know, hanging out with them unattended or anything like that, or you know, taking advantage of you as the you know as a parent, you know, step in and you know, make sure that this isn't happening. But I also don't want a uh a skittish dog that's constantly, oh shit, you know, what happened? What's over there? What's going on with the kids? So um you I look at that aspect of things, and then you know, the trainability. As I'm getting older, when I did this when I was 18, you know, I I I looked forward to the thrill of having an over-dominant dog that was, you know, like the stallion you needed to break. You know what I mean? You know, you you you you you earn the stripes. Yeah, you know, you earn the stripes by taking that overly dominant dog and and and and and teaching him and training him and getting him in in to do the things you want him to do. I don't look forward to that anymore. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be fighting with dogs anymore. I'm getting too old for that. I'm looking for a dog that's easy to train, that wants to be present with you, that's looking for direction. Hey, what are we gonna do? You know, um, so that's what we look for. And and I enjoy looking for dogs like that. And for us, these guys are too big to be, you know, overly challenging. You know, the Borball is what it is. It's it's it's it's a it's it could be a dog that could be pushy, right? You know, um, because of of its original intent that was bred for, right? So you have that that sense some of these guys can be a little dominant and stuff. And I don't mind that per se, but I don't want a dog that's constantly challenging me. I don't want a dog that every single fucking day we're going out there, it's a challenge. Those days for me are way over. I'm too old for that. So I want a dog that's easy to handle, easy to train, that's looking looking at me like what are we gonna do? Yeah, just what to do. You want me to do that? Okay, I'll do that. You oh you want to do that? Okay, I'll go do that. You know, and it's just constantly great. That's great. I don't want a dog that's just that's challenging all the time anymore. Those days, those days, and these guys are too big for that. So I'm looking for a dog that's easy to train and wants to be there and is looking for direction. It's like, what are we gonna do? Let's go do it, you know. Right. And uh sometimes those dogs aren't for everybody. Sometimes people just want fat couch potatoes and do nothing. But for us, you know, you know, it and it's and and as a breeder, you want a happy balance because it's it's you can't place every dog in a working home, you know, as much as you want to you want to believe that you can, you can't, you know, so you're gonna try and find that happy balance, you know.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what? Uh a buddy of mine, he's a hog hunter here. I don't know if you ever heard of him, but his name is Brad Sneed. He he hunts uh hogs with dogos, circle, and he told me something that always stuck with me. He said, the number one thing a good working dog wants to do is to please his master. Amen. There you go, amen.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Amen to that.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

Yeah, they yeah. So he said he said that's why my dogs fit good in families and and and everything, because that's what that's what they want to do. Yeah, that's what they want to do.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

I don't want a dog that's fighting for dominance all the time, you know. You know, I don't, and don't get me wrong, they serve their purpose in a in certain programs and stuff like that, and some you know, uh, you know, protection programs and those guys, they love dogs like that, right? You know, me here, I don't I don't need it. I don't need it. Right. Um I feel if I if my dogs were getting quote unquote too soft, and maybe I might look for something like that. But even then, I'd rather have a dog that just wants to fucking please me and just follow me and just you want me to do that? Okay, I got a dog that's looking at me going, nah, I ain't doing that, bro.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

Right, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

And now you you're having that conversation with the dog.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

Um I'm just too old for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

I feel you, brother. Brother Eli, man, I appreciate you coming, man. What a hell of a conversation. Uh, how do people get in contact with you? Uh, could you uh drop your Instagram and all that stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Yeah, yeah. So Cold River Borbles on Instagram, on Facebook, uh TikTok, and uh Cold River Borbles dot com is our website. It's our website.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Okay, man. All right, well, uh, I thank you much. Uh much success to you and your program. And keep on whooping that ass out there like you know.