The Complete Retreat

The Truth About Running an Ayahuasca Church w/ Courtney Close of Hummingbird Church

• Ian Vogel • Episode 3

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In this candid conversation, Courtney Close shares her unlikely journey from organizing underground ceremonies to founding one of the largest public ayahuasca churches in America. 

Learn how Hummingbird Church evolved from small gatherings to hosting thousands of participants, all while maintaining unwavering commitments to safety and indigenous traditions. 

Discover crucial insights about facilitator burnout, sustainable business practices, and the importance of proper screening and safety protocols in the plant medicine space.

#PlantMedicine #Ayahuasca #SpiritualGrowth #Healing #PersonalDevelopment #Retreat  #RetreatBusiness #TransformationalExperiences 

Timestamps:
00:00 Courtney Close Intro
02:27 Courtney's Journey and Hummingbird Church
06:41 Safety and Legal Considerations
09:41 Financial Sustainability and Scholarships
12:35 Integration and Community Building
15:35 Lessons Learned and Future Plans
35:39 Practical Safety Measures
39:53 The Growing Demand for Ayahuasca Ceremonies
40:42 Personal Burnout and the Importance of Integration
42:55 The Value of Facilitators and Fair Compensation
46:37 The Necessity of Self-Care in Healing Work
57:48 Sobriety and Simple Living as Healing Tools
01:07:58 Final Thoughts

About the Guest: 
Courtney Close is the founder of Hummingbird Church, one of the largest publicly visible ayahuasca churches in America. 

With experience spanning hundreds of Ayahuasca ceremonies, she's pioneered safety protocols and legal frameworks that have helped transform underground ceremonies into legitimate spiritual practices. 

Her work focuses on creating safe, accessible spaces for healing while honoring indigenous traditions and supporting medicine carriers from various lineages.

About RetreatHelp: 
RetreatHelp is an end-to-end business consulting and marketing systems provider with a mission to simplify the business of retreats, helping conscious leaders sell out their events faster, increase revenue, and have a greater impact with less stress. 

We specialize in helping retreat leaders and conscious business owners streamline and scale their businesses through our comprehensive Four Pillar System: marketing, sales, technical systems, and business operations. Using cutting-edge technology, AI integration, and automated solutions, RetreatHelp enables retreat facilitators to focus on creating transformative experiences while reducing manual workload.

Guest Links:
✦ Main Website: https://hummingbirdchurch.com/
✦ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hummingbird_church/
✦ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hummingbirdchurch/
✦ Email: info@hummingbirdchurch.com

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courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

the last time I saw you Joshua tree. We were underground getting kicked out of every fucking Airbnb in Joshua tree when somebody checked the security cameras, saw people vomiting. And that was so stressful. And that was a big part of like, Oh my God, I can't do this in the shadows anymore. we had an underground ceremony where not just like one cop showed up, like the whole squad showed up, we had a helicopter and county SWAT and guns and everything. And I was like, fuck this.

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

You can have that shift your good intentions from can go from a healing process to actually a process. That's, as you said, stunting your growth and holding you back. It can go from your set of wings to your ball and chain

HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Camera:

Welcome to another episode of the complete retreat podcast where we talk to retreat creators and industry experts About what it takes to create a thriving retreat business Today, my guest is courtney close who's the founder of hummingbird church As far as I can tell, Hummingbird Church is one of the largest, above ground, and publicly visible ayahuasca churches in the country. Courtney shares a ton of valuable information in this episode talking about how she went from organizing a handful of underground retreats every once in a while to the point where she is now organizing multiple retreats in multiple states across the country. I've known Courtney for several years going even before the inception of Hummingbird Church so it's been really amazing to see her progress in this amount of time. And I really value her focus and the focus of Hummingbird Church on safety, and the fact that they work with indigenous medicine carriers from different lineages. I think that's super important and super cool. In this conversation, we touch on a handful of important topics, including money in ceremonies, which a lot of people don't like to think about or talk about, but it's a real thing, and facilitator burnout. What that looks like and the results of that, what can happen when people don't take time away from facilitation work in plant medicine ceremonies. So, yeah, stick around to the end. This is a great conversation. I think you're really going to love it.

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

hey, how are you doing?

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

I'm doing really well. It's great to talk to you. It's been a hot minute since we've. Communicated and had a conversation and I know a lot's come up for you and a lot of time has passed. So, hey, I'd love to hear a little bit about where you're at now since we last spoke and I last saw you and what's exciting for you. And I guess that's a good place to start. What's exciting in your world right now? And what do you, what are you jazzed about?

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

So right now I'm really excited about working with these different lineages. Hummingbird Church, we primarily just worked with Taita Pedro and the Kamsas. And we've been doing that for about five years. Like two years underground and almost four years as a church. And the demand for ceremonies just kept increasing and increasing. It was typically, something that we were just going to do a few times a year in Southern California. And then Southern California turned into Utah and Oregon and Missouri and Hawaii. And and 30 different retreats and, It was a lot. It was a lot, a lot. And then this year I tried to slow it down, but the demand is like, it's a lot. There's tons of people that want to come, to retreats and ceremonies and are looking for a safe place to experience the medicine. So we ended up adding a little bit more trying to simplify things to make it easier on the team, like putting retreat leaders there. So I'm not at every single one. And also now trying to like offer different experiences. We, talk to people in our community and a lot of them don't want to, or have the time to do like a full retreat that I've already set. They just want to go for one night. So now we're starting to do that. And. People are curious about sitting with the different lineages and they want to be able to go down to the jungle with a group. So we've started doing groups down to Columbia and down to the Brazilian Amazon. So for next year, we're trying to get everything ready to where we can start leading those groups. Tours down there and then also preparing everything for these different lineages that we're working with. And the first one we have coming up is in October. We're bringing in Haru and Hira Kuntanawa to lead a retreat with us. So I'm really excited about that. It's totally different than, how we've, Been experiencing the medicine like the Brazilian ceremonies, there's dancing. There's movement. There's a lot of music and they go until the sun goes up. And. So it's a bit of like adjustment, but we're really trying to keep in there, like the core principles and practices that we've always done to keep people safe and the same facilitators the same group, but just creating a space for these different lineages and learning about what they have to offer and their knowledge and their experience. So I'm really excited about that. That's going to be our first one in October. And then The Hona and Anae Yawanawa are coming up and we're going to do a Utah one with them and a Southern California with them and then a meeting next, not next, we're going to have the following weekend with Taita Luis and Maria Abuela Maria, and then in two weeks with Taita Gladino. to talk about planning out 2025. So 2025, we want to do multiple states, Hawaii, California, Utah, Oregon Texas, and Missouri set up teams in each state so that we're not traveling as much. And then when these indigenous medicine carriers come to do their tours in the U S we're booking them. And, working with other communities as well, because other communities bring up really great, amazing carriers of the medicine and. We want to, create safe places for these people to work and then also create work for them. There's nothing but abundance in this area and there's no reason for anybody to feel like there's competition or insecurity or anything like that. So I really want to partner more with the different communities with people that are like, I have this amazing, Medicine carrier, and maybe they're not sure how to market it or how to do a ceremony or what they need to do to legally protect themselves. Or even, visit the physical safety part. And that's something that I feel like we've learned so much about that in the last few years and doing as many retreats as we have. So I'm not saying every scenario has happened. Lord God, I hope it has, but so many of them have, and we've learned so much and documented so much and had really great people to help us put the legal stuff together and the safety protocols together and the lesson learned. And I want to share that information with people, whether you're part of Hummingbird Church or not. Just to me, that's open source code. It's not like we have a formula to follow, or we all went to college for this and trained for this. I mean, this is a really insane thing to do. Like you're in a gray area of the law. You have adults mostly working through trauma on. The world's, one of the world's strongest entheogens and you're bringing up these indigenous people from South America and you're trying to honor their tradition, but also adapt it so that it works in America and it's. So much, it's so heavy. It's so much, it's such a fucking mess, but it's absolutely beautiful. And I, I don't feel any attachment to like hoarding that information or keeping it all for me. Like I, I want to share it with people. And so I'm putting together some different documents and workshops and things that we can do. To help other entheogenic church leaders, or even people that are doing psychedelic retreats, because I really believe, yeah, there's like some bad actors and nefarious people in the space but overall people have really good intentions. And I had really good intentions when I came into this space, but there was so much that I was ignorant to, and so many things that, by the grace of God, like could have gone wrong that didn't. And I know that a lot of people are coming into this space with like, they had a life changing experience or they had just, they believe in this work and they want to honor it, but you don't know what you don't know.

HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Camera-2:

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courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

So I really want to focus in 2025 and getting that information out to people that want to do this sincerely and safely. So that, our hard lessons learned can hopefully make it a little easier for someone else and keep everybody as safe as possible and also make this work look like less of a joke to people that think we're just, doing drugs or being a bunch of stupid hippies and to really You know, honor and respect and create safe places for these indigenous medicine carriers to, to do the best work that they can do.

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

Well, that's beautiful. And I, my personal belief is that we're Moving into an era where, like you said, the source code information is going to be more and more available, where in the past it used to be siloed and people used to be able to keep it close to their chest and not be able to share or not want to share, I believe the energy of the planet is just moving more into a kind of a communal sort of, Vibe, and that's, with cryptocurrency and, entheogens being decriminalized, that's just on multiple levels and different systems, the economic systems, the educational systems, the governmental systems that things are going to be more Open and available and accessible and just information in general. So that's really cool and sounds like you're planning to ride that wave into the future and I get a really strong sense that's going to be a very fruitful way to interact with the medicine and being inclusive. with the different indigenous communities while honoring their specific traditions. So that's super rad. And I was thinking about it. And the last time I saw you, I'm pretty sure it was the first weekend of August in 2001. So, or 2000. it was the first weekend in August of 2001. Of 2020. So it was after COVID, yeah, the first weekend in August of 2020. So the summer, the tail end of the summer after COVID, well, COVID was still a thing then. And Hummingbird Church wasn't, if I recall correctly, it wasn't established at that point. So I'm curious to hear. I'm curious to hear about, that, that journey going from, as you said the underground to establishing the church, maybe a little bit about what that provides and the benefits of that, because I know not everybody has done that. And kind of the growth and evolution of Hummingbird Church from, I think, yeah when I was with you, it was maybe just the seed planted in the mind. And now it's a, it's a thing, it's going, the train is on the tracks and it's moving forward. So I'd love to hear about that

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

Yeah. And all that was super unintentional. so yeah, for the last time I saw you Joshua tree. We were underground getting kicked out of every fucking Airbnb in Joshua tree when somebody checked the security cameras, saw people vomiting. And that was so stressful. And that was a big part of like, Oh my God, I can't do this in the shadows anymore. I don't, I really sincerely didn't believe that we were doing anything wrong and to run around like rats and like get kicked out of Airbnbs and have just so much chaos, it goes. Along with like being in the shadows and I right after that one. I was like, I can't fucking do this anymore Or that was running Springs. Yeah that running Springs was the last time I was like, I can't do this anymore This is like just so ridiculous and I actually right after that one called it quits. I was like, I'm done Like I, cause I drink so much medicine and I was like, I just want my normal life. I want to walk my dog. I want to like, hang out with my kid. I don't want to deal with all this. I don't want to like be looking over my shoulder. Am I going to get arrested? Or, I just didn't, I wasn't even educated on the laws at that point. And then I took a break and a friend of mine was like, from Texas was like, I really want to drink ayahuasca. Will you go with me to a ceremony in Florida? And it was COVID, still taking place and airfare was still super cheap. So I think it was like 39 bucks to fly from LAX to Tampa. And I was like, okay, this will be the last time I drink medicine. I'm absolutely done. And I drank the medicine and it just, I fell in love with it all over again and had this amazing ceremony and I was like It was just the message from that sermon is like, you aren't doing anything wrong. And so how do you bring this to the people that need it the most? Because with the underground ceremonies, like you had to know somebody, you had to get in there. There was no opportunity for scholarship. It was like, you just showed up and. gave the shaman your money and hoped we didn't get kicked out of the Airbnb before the ceremony was over. There was no retreat. There was no like food. There was no activities. There was no breath where it was just, you showed up and gave a dude your money and went home. And after that ceremony, I felt like, okay, well, there's other churches that do this. How do you do it? And I had no idea what to do. And then it was like two weeks after I came back, I I met Greg Lake, who's an attorney and him and I started talking on Facebook and he kind of started pointing me in the right directions to discuss the, like what the law was, what the rights were, what the risk really, what the risk is. And to to make that, to, to educate myself and get that understanding on what was I risking? How are you protected or not protected? How do you even file the paperwork to start a church? What do you need to do? And he kind of, was my chaperone down that rabbit hole. Which led to other, amazing people that started pointing me in the right direction and providing the resources that I needed. And then my friend Susie Calypso, she she has a Bufo church, Temple of Eden in Southern California, but she didn't have that either at the time. And so she was like, I want to do this, but with Bufo. So then I had a partner to kind of navigate this space with and figure out everything from filing the article incorporation with the state getting an EIN number from the IRS creating your church documents, your statement of belief Which bank isn't going to take your money, which website isn't going to confiscate your money which were lessons that we all learned the hard way and lost a lot of money. So it was just this whirlwind of like, once I made the decision, okay, this is what I want to do. This is the only way I feel good going forward working with the medicine. I can't do this underground thing. I can't run around like I'm doing something wrong, acting like I'm doing something wrong. It's a weird energy to even bring into ceremony. And then to be all fucking paranoid. I mean, there were times where we would do the ceremonies underground. I'd be like looking out the window, like a tweaker, like, Oh, is that a cop? Like, and, you know, Um, and then, we had an underground ceremony where not just like one cop showed up, like the whole squad showed up, we had a helicopter and county SWAT and guns and everything. And I was like, fuck this. Like I can't. And that was right after I made the decision for the church. I went to another ceremony that was underground in November and the whole damn San Bernardino County, sheriffs and SWAT came out with the helicopter. And it was fine. Once the cops like figured out that like people weren't dying, they, they had heard the screaming is what called the cops what we got the cops there. And a big thing about when we came out, out of, out of the shadows. Was we could go to the neighbors and say, Hey we're doing an ayahuasca ceremony. People may scream, you may hear throwing up, you may hear crying. Here's my cell phone number. If it's annoying or you're concerned, text me, we could go to the local police department and say, this is what we're doing. If you get calls like that, here's the phone number. Here's the address. And be out and not hide and it completely transformed the energetics of the ceremony to, having organizers and retreat leaders and people there that are relaxed and not standing out in the front yard, waiting for the police. And and so that was really the main driver of it. And it was like, how do we let people know we're doing this? Because essentially for 2 years, we were seeing the same people over and over again. And it was a lot of the same demographic. It was like primarily white people in their mid twenties to mid thirties like nobody showed up with like a fentanyl addiction or like deep trauma. Not a lot of minorities. It was just kind of milk, like it was the same. People and that it didn't feel like we were accomplishing a whole lot when we were underground and that was a big driver, too. So I don't know everything in 2000 in late 2020 after the ceremony where the cops came and I was still, I was planning everything. And I think For me, like spiritually, when like the whole shit show showed up with all the cops and stuff, like that was a test for me. Like now that your worst fears happen, let it go. Yeah. I ended up in jail. Everybody was safe. I could actually break down why the cops actually showed up and realize I had control over something like that, to prevent something like that from happening in the future. And then that confidence of like us not all getting hauled off, And thrown in a jail cell, which was like something that I thought would happen. So yeah, after that we, we filed everything and we had our first public ceremony where we built a webpage and actually had coworkers of mine at the insurance office, like helping me do this and like put the website up, build that do, a Instagram page and I didn't know I just oh, here's a little flyer and then We posted a bunch of memes and the meme started like weirdly driving people to the page like and we would get I was like We got a thousand followers in a month just from like reposting spiritual memes and creating memes and stuff The memes were like, just a odd driver of people to ceremony. And that's what really got the awareness of what we were trying to do. And the first ceremony that for Hummingbird church, like my neighbor had offered, she's like offered a barn that she had, that was just her ex boyfriend and was like a hoarder and it had all this shit in it. And she's like, you guys can clean it out. You guys can use the barn. And I was like, we'll make it work. So for three months, my boyfriend, my baby's daddy, my ex boyfriend like a bunch of just other people that were randomly around helped us clean out this barn and redo it and cut the stalls out of it and, put lights in it and insulate it and bought all this stuff. And I ended up now it being late December of 2020 being 30, 000 in the whole. Without one ayahuasca ceremony because I knew I wanted the mats and I wanted materials and these things, and I wanted a website and I wanted all this, so I was like, I'm only gonna spend 10,000. And then it 10 went to 20, went to 30, and I was like, oh shit. And the first. Ceremony we did, I hope I can just get 25, at least 25 people there. So it's worth, tied to Pedro's time for coming out and like, maybe not financially lose more money on it. And within two weeks of posting the ceremony, I had 40 people signed up. And I was like, Oh shit. Like I grossly underestimated the demand for the ceremonies. And then, and I, and I. I think for that, I mean, I was just trying to break even and it was like 675 for three ceremonies. So I would usually would end up about 000 in the hole from it. And that was a big thing too, like of lessons learning, like you can't bankrupt yourself in this, and you don't have to take a vow of poverty. As long as you're, Like writing that line. I see a lot of people that get into this struggle with that too. Like, how do we charge for my services? How do I make money? Am I being evil? Like, is this fucked up? Is this some Babylon shit? Like if I'm trying to get paid for all this time and effort and financial risk that I did versus, you know, being able to provide scholarships and People that don't have the financial means into it. So it was, that was like a whole nother thing that took like two years. I'm still trying to figure that out, but it took two years to, before ever like making a profit, but it did, it would take about two years to pay myself back for these ceremonies for the initial investment of it, and then probably like after that, making a little bit of money from it which was. Yeah, it was just a really weird space to be in. I think it's hard for people when you're doing spiritual work and you're doing work to help people to put a value on your time and your services. And there's this kind of like weird societal expectation that like you're doing something wrong by charging for it, but it's your time and it's your energy and it's your life like, and it's your expertise. And so I, the kind of balance I found with now is that as long as I'm able to, when we come across that person who absolutely has no financial means of getting to ceremony. To be like, fuck it, dude, we got a map for you. And we've never had to be like, oh, we can't help this person that we want to help there's because there is such abundance in this space and being a good steward of the finances is really important because there's plenty of people that, Are willing to pay that have the means to pay and you need the money to make it happen But as you manage your money and your finances correctly, you can help the people that can't pay for it And I we every year our goal is like right around fifty thousand dollars in scholarships give people and we You know, mean or exceed that every year. And we do creative things like, selling t shirts to, raise money for the veteran scholarships. Doing different, like, events. We've never personally done like a GoFundMe or anything like that because we haven't had to. So yeah, it was like once we, started charging more and not losing, I wasn't personally losing money because you get really burnt out too. Like when you're financially drained, you can't continue to do the good work you believe in when you're just, it starts changing your, the way you feel about this thing is in a very negative way. So you really have to take care of yourself and your organization financially to be able to do anything that you want to do. And that's something like, I can't stress enough to people because I see a lot of people doing what I did, financially hurting themselves, like, or being like, I don't know, I don't know how much to charge or, and it's like, you just really have to sit down and practically like look at the numbers and evaluate it and set goals as to what you're trying to achieve. It can't just be like all woo. You really need to do some 3d shit to have any kind of longevity in this space. And really ask yourself, be honest with yourself about what kind of exchange you expect for your energy and your time. So you don't feel burnt out and bitter and like. Fuck that shit, like it's because it's hard. This is the hardest this work is so hard This is so there's so many times with this I'm like, I'm gonna go running back to the Catholic Church or to a corporate America like because it's easier and this is Hard and so your heart needs to be in it and you need to be taken care of and you need to have balance So that you don't go off the walls because you're dealing with some crazy You stuff. And yeah, so it was like, those things were all happening and working themselves out and then we're bringing in facilitators and it was just, there was four of us when we started hummingbird church. It was me, Brian, Joe, Susie, well, and Tito Pedro. So five, that was it. That was our facilitators for a 40 person ceremony. There was no music. There was, we had Vitaly come and do breathwork the first one, and that was his first time doing group breathwork. And then he blew up like but that was it. That was our, that was your crew. And then people were like, Hey, we want to help you guys. And so every time we do a retreat, we basically adopt five people from that retreat that would help us out the next one. And it grew and grew and grew to where now we have 85 people that, Regularly volunteer or staff members and run these retreats and each person brought a new piece of the puzzle. They, whether it was cooking or patients or medical information, it was like everything we needed, we kept getting from the community. And soon we ended up having this Badass community of doctors, lawyers, psychiatrists, musicians, artists people from different indigenous lineages, just good people. Like, and every, like so many different nationalities and backgrounds. And I mean, it's just such it's the goonies. Like if you looked at us all together, you'd be like, why the fuck are these people hanging out with each other? There's not a type. It's not like, Oh, we're all like wearing white, doing yoga. It's not like that. We're real people. We look like a fucking grocery store. Like it's not. And that was kind of the goal, like for our, so many of these ceremonies I went, I was the first year that I did plant medicine, I was a ceremony hopper. I went to everybody's ceremony. I saw you had a bunch of them. You were like every ayahuasca ceremony for every group in SoCal.

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

That was like the 2017 2017 era. I was like, Oh, there's Courtney again. Joshua Tree. Every time I went to Joshua Tree, regardless of why I was going there, I'm like, I bet I'm going to see Courtney this weekend. And we'd see each other. It's like, Oh, you again. It's great to see ya.

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

Yeah, I 2017 2018 was fuck. I drink a lot of medicine and and there wasn't really talk back then about integration or anything. It was like, you drank the medicine and you went home. And then for me, it was like every other weekend I was at a fucking ceremony. Like ayahuasca, San Pedro, Wachuma, Bufo. And that's why I strongly advocate against doing that now is like, I'm just so grateful for my brain and my ability to bounce back and cause it was just too much. But you, for me, I, you know, I'd been a drug addict, like, And I was super depressed after I had my kid and I was not going to go back to drugs. I was like, I'll kill myself before I go back to doing drugs to deal with life. And when I found plant medicines, I started having these breakthroughs, but then I started like when it shit starts getting real and you're in the real world and it's time to test, like, do you want to be that shitty person? Do you want to go back to what's comfortable or do you want to really be this better person? It was like, Oh no, more plant medicine, like I'm going to, I'm not going to sit with that. I'm going to go to another ceremony and I'm going to start having these mystical experiences and I'm going to chase this mystic and very ungrounded, still helpful, but also harmful at the same time. And it was like the amount of medicine in that 2017, 2018 period. Like I don't think anybody needs to do that in their whole entire fucking life. But when you're not integrating and you're bypassing and you're hopping from ceremony to ceremony, from plant medicine to plant medicine, I don't know. I just thought I'll like, I would just do enough of it. And then just one day I'll be like, Oh, I'm all better. Like I'm an ascended fucking master. Now I reached enlightenment because I drank enough peyote or ayahuasca. I didn't, I had no concept of doing the work. Hardly anybody was talking about it. And the people that were talking about it. Like, where somebody would pop into my Instagram reel or on social media, I'd be like, eww. Like who, it just, it seemed, I don't know, it just seemed like douchey. It wasn't relatable. It wasn't, I was like integration. I was like, oh, this is where the therapist tried to manipulate the space and get in here and like take all the fucking magic out of it. And then you get to a spot where you really, with these powerful entheogens and spirits, like they lay you out. And they're like. Alright, now you gotta do the work. So if I would've known about things like integration and taking breaks and that, it's not, it's, they're not fucking Pokemon. You don't gotta catch them all, dude. Like, you don't need to just take all the plant medicines, and it doesn't make you any cooler or better or even more progressed in your personal development. It actually makes you kind of retard things. And um, from those ceremonies and from overdoing it. And from that experience is what I, brought to hummingbird and like our kind of joke with a lot of the facilitators, because we all like that we're in that time period when entheogen is just boom, they're in the U S and they're here and there's all these ceremonies and so count Florida, like those are the two hotspots happening every weekend, like. We say we went to every shitty ceremony in the U. S. so you don't have to, and learn those lessons and, talk about the importance of integration and have integration where we've got people that are doing it that aren't telling you what to think or what to do, but just holding that space for you. Like we say, the raft's going down the river and it's just, they're just the oar that keep it from hitting the rock too hard. Like, that's it. And, And it's all from lessons learned. This is, we're all very much pioneers in this space and learning these things and developing it. And yeah, I mean, we just really try to help people not have to go through what, like we went through to come to the same conclusion and not hurt themselves in the process. So everything that we've done at Hummingbird and continue to do is. from experience, from us living it. Not because anybody told us to do it. It's all been, hard lessons and wisdom gained. And and I know, and I hope, I know, and I hope a year from now I look at what I was doing today and go, Ooh, you know, and because we're growing and developing and learning and not thinking we have it all figured out. So, yeah, it's been, it's. It's been a lot of lessons learned and that's why I really do feel passionate about sharing this information for that person that wants to come into the space. Instead of looking at everybody with suspicion, like, why do you, why are you here? You don't have the right to be here. What experience do you have? I'd much rather just assume people have goodwill, let God and the people and the medicine sort it out and just share the information and the lessons learned. Because I don't think like with Hummingbird Church, what we were, what we did, I don't think a lot of people in the U. S. were doing that. We're doing as many retreats as we were. We're doing them Indigenous led and had the number of participants that we did. Oh, all I care about is money. There's no fucking money! Like, if you're doing this to like, cause it's like, you think it's a good way to make money? You're gonna learn it's not. It's really fucking not. This is expensive. There's a lot of liability. You're dealing with so many moving paces, like basically any other thing you'd wanna do would be a better thing way to make money than this. And it takes so much heart and like you really have to believe in it to do it. And our, when we would have so many people in ceremony, it was because we just didn't know what, like we didn't wanna tell people, no. We didn't know what to do. And we had a ceremony up in the Big Bear area in, oh, shit. When was that? I think it was the end of 2022. We had 64 people in there. And I was like, this is, this is too fucking much. Like, this is way too much for an ayahuasca ceremony. And it didn't go great. I mean, thank God, like nobody got hurt, but it was just, It was like a fucking war zone and a mental hospital on a battlefield. Like it was just too much. And after that I had to really pause and be like, what are you doing? Like, stop it. You got 64 people on a mat and you got 25 people volunteering, like, like staff, You've got almost a hundred people here. This is too much. And so after that, I reeled it back in. So for 2023, we started capping it at 40, which is still for a lot of the carriers and a lot of the spaces too much. So now we've drilled it down. We're doing 12 person ceremonies, 25 person ceremonies. And then in Utah, that's probably the biggest one. Utah and Southern California, we'll cap it at like 30, 35 people max. And that, and then reduce the number of staff that we've had because less is more a lot of times. we continue to, adjust and, move parts around. But, those were, I think in the beginning I had very rose colored glasses. I was like, I just want to bring this to the whole world. I want to, everybody just come. And the screening wasn't as stringent. And it was just like, God's got me, God's got, I'm spiritually, it's like, no dude you need to do your part. If you want God and all your guides and everybody that's trying to help you to do the, like, make it a little easier and do your part by being safe and sane. And so we, we worked with different people on like developing our screening and trying to do the best that we could to, Educate people that want to come to ceremony and also screen people to come to ceremony and then also the protocol for what happens when someone has a seizure. Somebody hits their head. Somebody has an allergic reaction. Somebody freaks out. And those are things that you need to have a plan in place. So that when the shit hits the fan, you can actually operate and do something that's effective and not harmful. And, that's something I'm really passionate about because I've seen in ceremonies where like someone's having a seizure, like get the Palo Santo out. It's like, What the fuck are you doing? They're having a seizure or this is just a spiritual, an energetic purge. They're having a fucking seizure. Like you have to do something. Yeah, it could be energetic purge. I'm sure it is, but they're also having a fucking seizure. So we were so grateful to get Steven who was a medic with the army. Also he's a a therapist and he really helped us. Put these safe practices in place where we CPR certify everybody that wants to volunteer. We do basic life support training. There's another one. Just stuff that's like very practical so that you have those tools. So when those things happen and then always now having a nurse and nurse practitioner or a medical doctor at the retreats. Because one thing you don't want to do too is, if someone's going through a process and you're, you can't identify, is this physical? Is this spiritual? Is this, what is this? And if you just call 911 because you panic and now you've got somebody hauled off to the hospital in an ayahuasca process, like what a fucking nightmare that is. Who doesn't need medical attention, they could be totally harmful. So you really have to be confident. And like When do you administer the medical aid? What are the signs that you're looking for? And having somebody that's actually trained in the practical is, was so beneficial for us. And we had, cause we have had those scenarios, we have scenarios, somebody hit their head. Do you have a concussion protocol? What do you do? If someone has a seizure, what do you do? Someone has an allergic reaction. Do you know how to use an EpiPen? Do you have an EpiPen? Do you even know what a fucking EpiPen is? Do you know what an allergic reaction is? So yeah, we had no first aid kit when we started. Our first, we have a whole med bag with oxygen and everything now. And granted, it is not common for these things to be needed in a ceremony space. But when you're running the numbers like we have and doing retreats as much as we have, it's, you're going to hit these scenarios and And people, other ayahuasca groups have seen us like, yeah, this is our med bag and our protocol. They're like, what the fuck are these guys doing? But it's like, well, when you're doing ceremonies with over a thousand people a year, some shit's going to happen, so that's where I really feel like just stressing the very practical stuff. To people, for them, even for their consideration is gonna help keep things a lot safe and sane for everybody. And I hope that's a contribution that we can just give to people like our screening form. Open source code. You wanna screen people you're not sure. Go copy ours. Go on, go take the intake, hit the intake form link, put in some bullshit answers and move on to the next one. Copy, paste, and or email info at Hummingbird Church and we'll send it to you. If you're, you have waivers, you're like, what do I do to protect myself? Dude, email us. We'll send you the waivers. Just don't do something like I have, there's some groups where they didn't change the name on it and they're filling it out and it says like hummingbird church. No, like be smart about it. Take your name off of it. We'll give you the template so that you can plug and play in it. But stuff like that, waivers, liabilities, screening people, that's all we don't care. Take it, use it, share it. If you find something cool and better to add to it, send it back to us with that information. Like, because none of those things were developed or learned. It was all hard and it was all trial and error. So if we can prevent unnecessary trial and error of others and help, secure the safety of people participating in these entheogenic ceremonies we're all for it. So, yeah, so it's just, it's been a lot. It's been a lot of learning, development. Increase, I mean that the demand for these ceremonies is far more than anything we could ever meet. We couldn't, like, even if we became the McDonald's of ayahuasca, like we still couldn't meet that demand. So people coming into this space with integrity and goodwill and intentions and good stewards of the medicine is necessary and it's needed. And, we want to help make that safe. That plays safe and for everybody. So,

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

Thank you. Thank you for sharing all that and that touched me on multiple levels because that story arc that you just went over. I've been on that story arc. I followed that, a trajectory like that going from just being at a ceremony every other weekend to the point where I was helping facilitate doing music and the whole deal getting to the point where I was so burnt out that the last ceremony that I facilitated, I was laying on my mat before we started and it was, everything was kind of settled down and I just lay in there and just, I stood up and I started walking towards my car and like. It is a totally unconscious. Unconscious behavior walking towards my car and like, where am I even going? Why am I doing this? And I checked in with my body. It's like, oh, this is a flight response. Like I want to run away from this, like something inside of me. Physically. I'm like. Okay, I'm not, something is not right here. And I, that was it. After that, I was just like, I'm, as you said I was bypassing. I was like, I was doing, I was drinking so much medicine, doing so, so many ceremonies. I didn't have time to do my own work. And to do the integration that's, that now we know is necessary. And not only is it necessary, it's a crucial key to making progress. I was just, I thought if I, the more ceremonies I did, the better I was going to be. Without doing the work myself and yeah, I got so completely burnt out that like, I almost just ran down the road to get away from the ceremony at that point in time. And it was like, yeah, that's, I just, I psychologically, physically cannot do this anymore in my heart. On some level, I knew. That there was people that were benefiting from what I was doing, but I was not benefiting from what I was doing. And like you mentioned, like I was. It was having a negative impact on my life. And I'm really glad that you touched on the aspect about energy exchange. there's nothing spiritual about poverty. There just isn't. And you mentioned that there's the societal programming around that and I. Live that firsthand. And I had this whole couple of years of trying to figure out thinking about worth, like what's like, what's it, what does it mean to, to have an energy exchange for like, what is my time worth? What is my. my. Expertise or my, my, my knowledge and my skillset, what's that worth? And like, am I willing to accept less than a poverty wage to do really skilled, hard, very demanding on multiple levels kind of work, and you just can't do that forever. That's a recipe for disaster.

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

You can't,

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

I'm really glad that you brought that up and there's, yeah,

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

so many facilitators in this space are completely taken advantage of. Like, it's, it's insane. Like, oh, you wanna show up and be part of this. Okay. Well, you're paying to travel. You're there. You're away from your job, your family. You're responsible. We need a dog sitter or kids there or whatever, someone to water your lawn. They have all these expenses and stuff that they're, and they want to help. And then they have this belief that, okay, I just need to do this like for free and helping. And there's time. Yeah. When you can give for free and it doesn't hurt you for sure. But when you've got people that are, a standard part of your ceremony or doing things for you, you've got to compensate them. And I've. We, we pay facilitate, we have volunteers, but we pay our facilitators. And that was something that really wasn't well received by the community. Like we would, in the beginning, we didn't have a lot, but like we, when we were under, Hey, Ian, can you come do music? Can you come help with this? Like, borrowing from these different communities. And like, when we would You know, bring somebody from another community and we pay them. They'd be like, Oh shit, you're paying me. Or you're buying my airfare ticket. You're paying for my check bag. Like, no, I've been doing this at my own expense and financial detriment. I'm like, what, but you're helping like. And then other organizers and people would be like, why are you paying for their stuff? You don't need to pay. Everybody should be here as a sacred volunteer. Well, that person's making money like shit. Who the fuck are you fooling? And I've seen so many great facilitators be completely taken advantage of or volunteer, whatever you want to call it. I know people sometimes call facilitators people serving the medicine. That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the person that takes you to the bathroom and has a conversation with you. Or help set up and do these things or plan an activity or lead integration where a lot of the people that are organizing, like in my position, think that those aren't skills you should pay anybody for it. That they should just be happy to be part of the community. And then you run through facilitators, you're constantly recycling people because you're burning them out because you're not doing an adequate energy exchange with them or supporting the services that person's offering, if they have a business, like, or so like, I mean, for church, it's like a bizarre things that are for sale that people bring. I don't take a cut of it. Why would I take a cut of what people are selling? Or if someone does integration services, I don't expect a cut. Like this is supporting our community. And that's something that like, I feel really passionate about, people need to be paid and appreciated. And. Given opportunities and in a lot of communities, they just don't value. There's a lot of turn and burn of people. I mean, you're going to have to turn and burn naturally because people are going through such intense processes and growth. And you do, I'm an advocate of stepping the fuck away from this at times. Like you have to step away. I step away. You won't see me in ceremony for three months because I'm doing work. I'm spending time with my child and I'm being a human fucking being. And you've got to step away and take breaks. But if you're not properly taking care of your people, financially, energetically, you're going to lose them and you're just going to have this constant burnout of people. And it's so sad and, um, it's. And then these people are doing it with their heart. So they're like, I don't think I should pay, but then they're financially fucking themselves too. And It's sad that it gets down to that. But I imagine like regular churches have that problem too, part of our healing process is being able to, Say what we need. What do you need? What are you? And find value in yourself and walk away if someone's not willing to compensate you or do that exchange with you. Just, okay, cool. You're, you don't think I'm worth it. Right on whatever. And not take it personally or let it destroy you, but to move on, and hold your value. So we definitely. I had it for myself with, Oh, I'm getting, getting the compensation for taking the financial risk and not going into poverty. But then also, with the people bringing on to be able to pay them. So it's all part of it. Everybody needs to get, and this is such a highly skilled niche. Like, if you find somebody that's good at helping people in this space, why would you ever let them go? I'm like, it's blood in, blood out. Gang, gang over here. Like, If there's a problem, talk to me about it. Like, let's figure out what's going on. Is it a break? Is it financial? Is it appreci? Is it just needing appreciation? Is it burnout? Like, because these people are so special that are in this space that actually. Can help navigate it for other people, especially when you have this just hordes of people wanting to come and have these experiences now to be able to have these guardians and guides that can help you like, don't burn them out. Don't treat them like shit and support them.

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

yeah, I think that's super important and something that's not talked about enough, quite frankly, and I understand why certain individuals, people leading the ceremony sometimes people who are responsible for the financial aspect, why. Why they don't want to talk about paying people or the real life circumstances of the facilitators who, who come in. And like you said, they are highly skilled. Now, people who are good at holding space and facilitating in those kinds of ceremonies, especially if they're larger group ceremonies, you just, you don't just find those people and those people aren't just in some sense. Yeah. They're born with certain innate abilities and to be. Come skilled and to develop any sort of vocation or skill to a degree where it's really valuable. It requires a lot of work and practice. And I know you and me, we both kind of went through that period of time where we were, I was driving four hours one way to a ceremony and then four hours back on the Monday morning. And just, I wasn't getting paid And I was contributing in a meaningful way. And I know you were there too. We're putting a lot into it, like our heart and soul. And, I believe that everything happens for a reason. And I'm really grateful for all of the experiences that I've had, even the crazy, challenging ones, the. The dangerous ones, the ones that were just fucked up beyond all belief. It's like, those are opportunities to learn and grow. And the crazier the experience, the greater the opportunity, the more, the bigger, the challenge, the. The more it pulls out of you to be able to overcome that challenge. So on one hand, I'm, I wouldn't change a thing. I'm super grateful for all of the challenges, all the hard times, all the stuff that happened. And. And I see that was part of my journey. I needed to go through that to, to get to where I am today, to learn about self worth and to learn about what's right. And, what's, what resonates with me, not necessarily right, but like what resonates with me and what I see as really benefiting people and, I think it's, When you're in it, it's hard to have a proper perspective because you're so close to it, and if you're doing it all the time, you're so close to it, your relationship with the medicine can start to, or relationship with the ceremony, relationship with the organization, Can start to shift over time and you don't even realize it because it's always in your face. You're you can't, you haven't been able to make enough space from it to look at it objectively. I mean, I can say that for myself over time, like the, with the spiritual bypassing, like My relationship with ayahuasca, it shifted over time to a relationship of codependency. And it wasn't like that in the beginning. It was, it felt very equitable and it felt like there was a give and take and I would leave the ceremony and I would feel like my cup was overflowing. Over time, my cup was empty more often than not. And, I, and I didn't realize it because I was, I didn't have the distance. I didn't take time off to have that perspective, to be able to look at it objectively and, human beings are so adaptable, like we can get used to anything, The craziest, most. gnarly stuff, like abuse, whatever it is for one person. Like if you grew up in that, or if it's just been your everyday life for a period of time, people get used to anything so you can. You can have that slide. You can have that shift your good intentions from can go from a healing process to actually a process. That's, as you said, stunting your growth and holding you back. It can go from your set of wings to your ball and chain over time. And. And I think what you said about taking the regular breaks, just taking three months off to, to put your feet on the ground and be a human being. I think that is, is so important. And I would really, people who are facilitating or in that role or. Moving in that direction, I would really, knowing what I know now, if I'm working with an organization and they don't emphasize that, or don't encourage that of their staff or their, that's not a part of the ethos of the leadership of. Intentionally taking time away to, to do their own work and to do their homework like that to me is as a red flag and something that I'm now am very consciously aware of when thinking about working with different groups and when interacting with people who are holding the medicine or facilitating or whatever you want to call it.

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

Yeah. I mean, it's, I just did my own journey on this. Like I, I just was guns a blazing. Like I'm just naturally a fucking maniac and I'm just like go. And I found myself like, it wasn't until like. Maybe like May like was made two months ago three months ago where I had a huge wake up call I mean I had been in the space and I'm not trying to sound like motherfucking Teresa or like a martyr or Anything because it's not like that. It's not like oh, I'm such a good person because I put myself last. It's not at all There's not like a value thing It's just what fucking happened is that I was so focused on these ceremonies making this happen the healing the healing the healing the healing and I gained a hundred fucking pounds, and I'm like, what do I feel like shit all the time? Why, what have circle bags under my eyes? Why don't I have the energy to play with my kid? Like. What's going on with me, and I had a, I was actually a mushroom ceremony. It's a sacrilege that I went to a mushroom ceremony and had a breakthrough, but I had to remove myself because of the relationship I developed with ayahuasca and with Tita Pedro and helping other people too. I can't really go into, I can't get healing from my own. I went to Peru to go to Nimiakaya to like, go do that. And then, and that helped, two years ago. And then I went to this mushroom ceremony. That were some of the facilitators at Hummingbird Church that they did. And it rocked my world. And I had a total breakthrough there. And, a big message was like, you've got to take care of yourself. You can't do shit if you don't take care of yourself physically, mentally. Mainly physically, like if you and so I left there and I went to my doctor and I lied about having all these symptoms. I mean, I had a shit ton of like shitty symptoms anyways, but I made up a slew of symptoms so I could get every blood test covered by my insurance possible and do all these tests. And I got a really like rude awakening about the status of my health and But I was in a spot where I was like, okay, I can change this. Like these things are, thank God, like these things are reversible. I can eat better. I can sleep. I found I had sleep apnea and I wasn't sleeping and that was part of the stress and I had high blood pressure and. I had like crystals in my pee that were going to turn into a kidney stone if I didn't stop fucking drinking soda and shit. I was running on three to four Red Bulls a day. Plus sometimes being like, I can't relax. I'm so wound up. I'm dealing with all this shit. Like I'm going to go relax with beer. Like it just became this completely unhealthy lifestyle while doing all this work with plant medicine. It doesn't make you immune to any of this shit and the, but the ways to do with it, because I was, Pouring from an empty cup. I was completely drained after these ceremonies. I'd want to be face down in a bed for three fucking days, going through some little miniature existential crises in the same clothes, displaying every symptom of severe depression for days to recover from a fucking healing ceremony. And it, and I had to step away and I haven't been at a retreat for months because I needed to, or I went to Missouri, but I just did the cooking in Missouri. I didn't do anything, like I just was like, Oh, I'll do the cooking. My family's here. And I did the cooking cause I liked doing the cooking. So I really had to step away and start focusing on my health and, was able to like, okay, now the last 40 pounds. I'm not eating like shit. I'm not wanting to poison myself with shitty ass food. I drank a fucking Red Bull last week and it turned into a spiritual emergency. Like, I'm like, and I was on three or four of these motherfuckers a day! Like, I had a coffee yesterday and I was like, Oh God. And that was all I was running on for years, like to keep up with my life, my job, the ayahuasca retreats, and I wasn't taking care of myself. And like right now, the priority has been taking care of myself physically. and making sure I'm good and being sober. Like what a gift sobriety is. Like, if you don't know what to do with yourself, stop doing like, stop doing shit. Be sober. Like just fucking be sober. No beer, no fucking weed. Like no California sober, like get the weed, get the caffeine, get the fucking beer, get the fast food, get the shit. All that is, get the fucking Netflix out, get the internet out, get the going on tinder and fucking everything out. Like stop, just be sober, be present. It's the best gift you can give yourself and then your brain stops rattling around like a fucking ping pong ball in your head and you can actually have a chance of figuring your shit out and who you are and what you want to do. Like it's just such a blessing in it. And I feel like the world's dumbest motherfucker because I'm doing all this work. I drank over in 200 ayahuasca ceremonies. I can't, I probably drank 5, 000 feet of fucking cactus and I don't know how many pounds of mushrooms and smoked how much DMT and bufo and I don't, and it's like to miss the things that are so simple. And that's really what these entheogens bring you back to. Walk your dog. Go outside. Nature's the greatest integrator. Don't eat shitty food. Don't drink fucking Red Bulls. Don't be, don't deal with your stress. Don't reward yourself with beer and weed. Like, so, stop it. Stop putting Ugh, all these strangers bodies in your body, like, like, stop jerking off five fucking times a day to porn, like, all these things are so normal in our society, like, they're not normal, they're really not fucking normal at all, and they control you, and when you get sober and you stop doing these destructive behaviors, that mental clarity that you get. And the chance of everything actually fucking being okay just goes up through the charts. So I am so grateful that, I mean, it's like been since May, but like I just the thought of like drinking a beer or doing anything like wicks me out. And now I feel like I can really do the work that I wasn't doing for seven fucking years in this space. Like, and it's just really important. It's really, the space doesn't make you immune. To any of like, this shit. It actually makes you like, more susceptible to it. So, it's, you gotta do the work. You gotta take care of yourself. You gotta take care of yourself first. It's not selfish. It doesn't make you a bad person to take care of yourself. Like, you have to take care of yourself first. And, this is a space where it's really easy not to do so. To lose yourself in it. To become ungrounded. These entheogens, bring you back, put you out in outer space and if you don't have a good connection, you're not grounded, you're going to float around in space and maybe float around until somebody throws you in a mental hospital or tell you're sleeping on people's couches because you can't function. Like you gotta take care of yourself. That's the most important thing in this space. Don't take care of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, financially, like. Otherwise you will not have any kind of longevity in this space and thoughts and prayers, cause you'll end up in a mental hospital, a real hospital, like a hospital or a fucking jail cell. Like that's, and I've seen so many, I don't even know how many people since I've been in this space that, Oh, that person died. That person's not there. Oh, what happened to them? Like, because they don't, they're not taking care of themselves. They're not grounding. And it's, you can't work in a fucking nuclear power plant every day and not wear, protective suits. Suit like it's the same kind of thing. And so many of us, because this isn't something you go to school for, and it's so new and it's just adapting to this different thing in America, like like you wouldn't jump, you wouldn't be like, I want to pilot a seven 47. But fuck going to school for it. Fuck learning how to like fly. I'm just going to jump behind it. And that's what a lot of people do in this space, whether they're serving the medicine or they're jumping in to like help facilitate the ceremony. It's like, well, yeah you're piling a 747 and you know what the fuck you're doing. And then, Oh yeah, he crashed it. So even with all these lessons and stuff, there's still so many simple ones that I'm missing out on and learning every fucking day. And, Yeah.

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

I very much appreciate your honesty and you've always been for as long as I've known you, you always just say what's on your mind and speak whatever comes up there. For me, there's never been any doubt that was actually what was on your mind. I so appreciate your openness and your willingness to share with what your experience is, because I know it's not glamorous. Like the things that you share there's a lot of. Ugliness and being honest with ourselves. Something that you mentioned earlier that I, that really kind of pinged with me. You have to be honest with yourself and drinking the medicine and continuing to have ecstatic experiences or these peak experiences that can leave you ungrounded. And when you're not grounded, like your perspective is just, it's just harder to trust. Like on one hand, yeah, it opens you up to a whole nother realm of existence and experience. And on the other hand, the 3d reality, things get a little bit slippery. And it's, it gets harder to trust your own judgment, quite frankly, it becomes suspect. And that was, that's my experience. And that is what I see with, and have seen with people who are doing a lot of medicine work and not taking the breaks

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

Yeah. You can become inverted You just become totally inverted and in this world that we're coming into where we don't know what the fuck is real, there's deep fakes and scammers and all this bullshit. Like you don't know what's real or fake anymore is you don't have yourself to trust. Fuck all. You're gone, dude.

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

lost.

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

You're lost. Like you, you have to all, and we've turned off so many of our internal alarms because of our trauma and society and shit we're in. Like, you need to get your internal alarm system back up to where you don't, you trust your, like most of us walk around and we don't trust ourselves. Like, like, I know somebody told me this guy looked shady, but I still got in the car with him anyways. Or I didn't want to do it, but I did it because people told me like, it's just normal. It's just a norm. And it's the only way to navigate this new world with this technology and AI and people's bullshit and people not being authentic anymore is you've got to be good with you. And you gotta be able to listen to that voice in yourself. Because that's, what's going to navigate what's right for you and when you're ungrounded and it's so sad, cause I mean, I've had it happen to me and I've watched it with many people in this space, like just completely detached from reality and start even attacking and not looking in the mirror. They're just completely inverted from being ungrounded so much. And it's not a good spot to be in. And it's really fucking hard to get yourself out of that mess. And the last thing you need to do. There's any more plant medicine when you're in that space. You need to chop wood, carry fucking water and call your mom, dude. Like, that's a, that unglamorous part of it. Eat a vegetable, dude. Oh yeah. Mhm.

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

Do your homework and yeah, be honest with yourself. And like I said, the honesty part, it's not so easy when you're doing ceremonies all the time, because the, especially if you're in a, like a leadership role or facilitating, because the feedback you're getting from the people around you is usually pretty great. And it, it can throw your perspective, it can give you a different perspective. If people are always telling you how awesome you are at healing or, whatever your thing is, like how their life has changed because of, because you sneezed in the ceremony, it's like removing yourself from that environment and being sober. I mean, I've done in the last two years, I've done one ceremony and have been very sober. For the majority of the time and it's been, and I'm still processing the prior five to seven years of doing all that work two years. And I'm still like, I'm still like, I'm moving back in that direction. The pendulum is starting to find a, like a center point where there's a balance, but man, it's, it takes time. And sobriety is, as you said, such a gift, such a beautiful experience. If you can't, if you can't be good with yourself, sober, like good luck with doing more ceremonies or doing this or doing that, if you can't be good with yourself, sober and content and look at yourself in the mirror and smile at yourself and feel good about just being like, that's, that should be a good barometer. And yeah. And if you don't trust, as you said, that inner voice and you can't trust your own intuition. Then you're not going to be able to trust anybody and you're going to be reactive to every situation in life rather than being proactive and being able to move in the direction that you're being called to move in. That's going to bring out the best and highest version of yourself. So, that's such a beautiful message to come from, the person who I look up to and know as Courtney facilitates a lot of ceremonies, organizes a lot of plant medicine to, to come to that point, I think is really beautiful and a testament to both of our growth. And it's been a real pleasure to, to have known you way back then, and to have been able to witness the evolution of what you're doing in your work. And I remember the first thing, the very first post about Hummingbird Church, I think I sent you a message. I was like, Yeah, rock on. That's cool. I'm glad that you're pursuing that and you're organizing it in a, yeah, organizing it and being open with it and standing up for what you believe in. I've always really appreciated your honesty and your willingness to step out and just be open. Be your bad self. So, with that, I think that's a, this is a good place to start to land the plane. But but yeah, I'd love to hear if there's anything else that you'd like to any parting words, any, anything that's present with you now and. Any, any websites or anything that you'd like to promote and get out there so that people can connect with you and see if they vibe with what you're doing.

courtney-close_1_08-21-2024_141717:

Yeah. So, our website is hummingbirdchurch. com. We have all of our events that are open to the public on our event page. When people want to come to ceremony, we don't have them pay and then vet them. That's no, you have to get vetted first. So you need to fill out an intake form. And if we, so it's safe for you. Don't think that if you hear ayahuasca isn't safe for you because of some condition that you have. Call us. Well, text us. Don't call us. We won't pick up the fucking phone, but text us and then we'll set up a time for a call or email us at info at hummingbirdchurch. com. And we'll discuss those, with you. But don't put your life at risk to do this. There's lots of other beautiful ways to heal yourself. This isn't the pinnacle of it. It's not the top of the pyramid. It's not for the spiritually elite. It is just one of the many tools that God has given us to help us heal and be better humans. So if it's, if you can't do ayahuasca, don't be bummed out. There's a million other ways to heal and lots of other beautiful things to do, but don't put your life at risk to do this and do your research. Somebody this is so sad this week, somebody was saying there was a hummingbird church ceremonies in Montana and they scammed a bunch of people for 500 and it's all over Reddit. It was not us. We didn't do it. We contact, we looked at the profiles. They're all from Nigeria. And, um, people are so, there's such an appetite for these ceremonies that people put themselves in situations that are unsafe or where they can be taken advantage of. Do your research. It's not like Hummingbird Church is the only place I think is safe to do it. We're actually starting tonight. I have a meeting to do our Friends of Hummingbird church, safe places, website, where people that do these other ceremonies or our integration coaches or offer services we're going to build that out and then start collecting everybody's information to put it on there. And those are people that we can recommend to you as an organization is being safe and sane and best to practice. So do your research, talk to people. If you don't know where to start, go on Reddit and start asking questions, and people are going to give you the good and the bad and their opinions about things, but. That's better than just Shooting your soul into the fucking wind, you know, and this isn't just this is your body your mind your soul You're just everything that you're giving to these people to you know Look over for you and some of them aren't the best players. So Research talk to people don't just Give someone a deposit from Instagram. You need to be vetted. You should be filling out forms. You should be having communication with these organizations So do your research? Be safe and sane. Don't do this if it's not safe for you. Don't lie about your conditions because you don't want to miss out And realize you still, there's no shortcut in life. Ayahuasca is not a shortcut. Shrooms aren't a shortcut. Pufa is not a shortcut. It is an amazing tool that can be the catalyst for some real growth and change. But you really need to have some tools under your belt, and some coping mechanisms, and, some sobriety if you can. If sobriety is what you're working on, okay, but make that a goal. To be able to handle it and integrate. Otherwise you're going to waste your time, your money, and possibly put your sanity at risk. So be safe about it and do your homework. And don't be bummed out if it's not for you. You can still be part of these communities. There's so many, there's so much stuff you can do. There's so many amazing things and amazing people. And don't give up. Don't give up. Don't, if you went to an ayahuasca ceremony and didn't work for you and don't give up, don't give up on your healing because it's, you'll get there. And the only way to get there is to keep trying. Like you, you just keep trying, keep focused, keep the faith that You can get through it. And the saying that we don't heal so that we can experience more pain. We heal so we can experience joy. And I can tell you personally, my life has gotten just so much better than I could have ever wished for, demanded, or wanted it to be. I'm not saying it's perfect. Like it fucking sucks some days, but it's not just the, my capacity for joy and my hope in humanity. Like. It's just beyond, beyond what I've ever even wished for before my healing began. So just stay with it. It's hard and it fucking sucks, but it's always worth it. So stay at it. Don't give up. Being sad, having days where you cry, you don't wash your ass, your relationship falls apart, you fucking hit somebody whatever you do, those are normal. Those are normal and it's all part of the process, but hang in there and keep at it and you'll. All of a sudden one day you'll just realize you're in a lot better fucking spot than you were so that's all I got

ian-vogel_1_08-21-2024_161717:

Mic drop. That was a beautiful way to end it. Yes, everyone out there, you got this. And yeah, I can't say any more. That was beautiful. Thank you so much, Courtney. And I'm sure people will get a lot out of this. You're a gem of a human and I'm super blessed to have met you. And yeah keep being your bad self.