The Complete Retreat

Retreats for Psychedelic Practitioners: Education, Ethics & Business Growth w/ Danielle Nova

• Ian Vogel • Episode 5

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Learn how the psychedelic training and retreat industry is evolving with Danielle Nova, Executive Director of the San Francisco Psychedelic Society and co-founder of FlowState. 

In this episode we discuss growing demand for professional microdosing facilitation and how practitioners can build ethical, successful businesses in this emerging field. 

Danielle shares insights on comprehensive practitioner training, working with diverse populations, and creating sustainable business models. Get an insider's perspective on industry trends, practitioner requirements, and the future of legitimate psychedelic businesses. 

#retreat #wellness #businessgrowth #psychedelics #podcast #microdosing #recovery #business #plantmedicine

01:44 Introducing Flow State
03:54 Microdosing Facilitator Training
05:54 Danielle's Personal Journey with Psychedelics
08:12 The Power of Overcoming Addiction
12:30 The Importance of Microdosing Education
24:41 Psilocybin and LSD: The Future of Microdosing
31:49 Who Should Avoid Microdosing?
35:21 Cultural Programming and  Psychedelic Medicine
39:14 Mindset and Relationship with Medicine
46:27 Legalization and Accessibility of Psychedelics

About the Guest:
Danielle Nova is the Executive Director of the San Francisco Psychedelic Society and co-founder of FlowState, a company specializing in microdosing practitioner training and retreats. With over 20 years of experience in psychedelics, she has helped educate more than 25,000 people worldwide through her educational programs.

Danielle was instrumental in passing the first resolution to decriminalize entheogenic plants in Oakland, sparking a global movement. Her work focuses on standardizing microdosing protocols and building comprehensive support systems for practitioners, collaborating with leading experts including Dr. Jim Fadiman.

About RetreatHelp:
RetreatHelp is an end-to-end business consulting and marketing systems provider with a mission to simplify the business of retreats, helping conscious leaders sell out their events faster, increase revenue, and have a greater impact with less stress.

We specialize in helping retreat leaders and conscious business owners streamline and scale their businesses through our comprehensive Four Pillar System: marketing, sales, technical systems, and business operations. Using cutting-edge technology, AI integration, and automated solutions, RetreatHelp enables retreat facilitators to focus on creating transformative experiences while reducing manual workload.

Guest Links:
✦ Website: https://flowstatenow.com/mft/
✦ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/connectwithd/
✦ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/connectwithd/

Podcast links:
✦ Website: https://retreathelp.com/podcast
✦ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/64GwMQE2QPLqDE9fFxIFR2
✦ ApplePodcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-complete-retreat-podcast/id1784541260
✦ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RetreatHelp

Additional links:
✦ Website: https://retreathelp.com/
✦ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/retreat.help/
✦ RetreatHelp Private Community: https://community.retreathelp.com/login

✦ This video was made with DeScript, the best AI enhanced video recording and editing software in the known Universe: https://get.descript.com/5f13

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

I lost my ability to talk, walk, function. I had a brain injury and psychedelics brought me back to life and over many years, I completely transformed out of the identity of addiction into liberation of my soul into purpose. And realized that, it was. All a part of my journey. I believe that our greatest gifts lie in our greatest struggles.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

what do you see for the future of microdosing as far as accessibility and doctors being able to prescribe it and this being a more viable option for people on a broad scale,

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

The revolution will not just be medicalized.

HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Camera:

what is up, and welcome to another episode of the Complete Retreat Podcast, where we talk to retreat creators and retreat industry experts about what it takes to create a thriving retreat business. Did you know that you can make a retreat for just about anything? In this episode, I talk with Danielle Nova, who is the Executive Director of the San Francisco Psychedelic Society and one of the co founders of FlowState, which is a company that provides training and hosts retreats for microdosing practitioners. Danielle and I have a great conversation. We talk all things micro dosing and psychedelics and she really helped open my eyes to the possibilities for when it might be appropriate or when a retreat could really help bolster a business and help to provide another layer of value to the customers of a business. I love what she's doing and I'm really excited for you to hear what she has to say.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

what are you excited about? What's present with you right now? What's going on in Danielle's life that's, that, that really lights you up and that you're excited to put into the world?

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

I'm just I'm feeling so excited about this new business that I've been starting with my business partner, Adam Bramlage. We just started a new company called Flow State. And this company focuses on training, mentorship, and leadership. and retreats and consultation for microdosing practitioners. So it's the parent company of the microdosing facilitator training. And We have a lot of different offerings that are underneath this umbrella. So primarily we have the microdosing facilitator training and then, and I'll go into that. But after people go through the training program, then we provide ongoing consultation for our facilitators. We know that the facilitation journey begins once people take the training, and so we provide ongoing mentorship, guidance, consultation, both on the business end of their facilitation practices, but also a place where practitioners are going to process their caseloads with experts in the facilitation community. And then we're doing in person retreats with thought leaders like Dr. Jim Fadiman, Manesh Gurn from UCSF and different individuals in the psychedelic space where we're bringing people together in Santa Cruz, California to launch their microdosing facilitation businesses, which is really exciting. I feel like so much in the psychedelic space is teaching people how to facilitate these experiences, but it doesn't focus on Well, what about launching your own business and all the energy that it takes to put into that from the marketing and to, the business infrastructure business plan. So, that's what the retreat's going to focus on. And then we also provide one on one coaching for practitioners to help them take their ideas and create an entrepreneurial journey for them and map out their entire facilitation business. So. Yeah, I'm really excited about this new project. It's lighting me up. And yeah it's the most meaningful project I've ever put into existence on earth. So I'm just really grateful for the opportunity to steward it.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

That's super exciting. And again, one of the reasons that I reached out to you specifically because of the microdose facilitator training, I wanted to know more about that and learn more about that specific offering that you're doing. I think I mentioned to you before that I've I've personally spent three or four years helping people on their microdosing journey, facilitating those journeys for people, and the information you need to know and the experience you need to have to be able to adequately and safely and effectively guide somebody through a microdosing journey, especially if they're coming to it as somebody who doesn't have any prior experience with psychedelics. There's a lot of. Knowledge that you need to have to impart on the people that you're working with and it's a bit of a Sensitive subject or it's getting somebody started with micro dosing can potentially be requires some finesse and the ability to sometimes work with very vulnerable people or people who are dealing with certain things in their life. If people are feeling great and their life is all in order, they're probably not coming to you for microdosing. So, having the ability to know how to deal with different people in different situations. Life situations is really important. So I'd love to know more about the facilitator training, but I think first it would be really awesome to, to get a little bit of background and hear how you even came to this place. Like what led you to, to wanting to bring this into the world?

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

Hmm. I appreciate how you appreciate the Intention and integrity behind the complexity of navigating microdosing experiences for other people and the importance that the training provides. Thank you so much that I really value your appreciation for the work. And So what brought me into this space? So I've been using psychedelics for over 20 years and I was actually quite a psychedelic advocate when I was in high school, doing MDMA, going to raves, educating my peers about psychedelics. Of course, back then it was entirely stigmatized and I was not being heard amongst my peers. But during that time, I ended up experiencing a lot of trauma in high school and my dad is a doctor. My mom's a counselor. They sent me to a psychiatrist. I was put on a litany of prescription drugs like antidepressants, mood stabilizers, ADHD medications, sleeping medications, and then became severely addicted to Oxycontin was in and out of. Eight different treatment centers throughout my twenties, I was a complete slave to addiction. I believe I had the disease of addiction and all these mental health issues. And was prescribed hundreds of psychiatric drugs and was told I was going to be, have to be on drugs for the rest of my life, that I was going to be an addict for the rest of my life, that I had no future, that I, yeah, it was just completely Disencouraged to be a human being, really, and to just believe that I had all these issues and that I had to take drugs for the rest of my life. And then one day I, Ended up just having a spiritual awakening and realized that I was taking all of these drugs to help myself and I had been suicidally depressed for 15 years and realized maybe the drugs were my problem. So I slowly pulled myself off all these medications and. And it completely debilitated me. I lost my ability to talk, walk, function. I had a brain injury and psychedelics brought me back to life and snapped me out of this really intense withdrawal syndrome that I had been experiencing. Specifically, ayahuasca, I began microdosing. With psilocybin and then LSD, I did sessions with Iboga and over many years, I completely transformed out of the identity of addiction into liberation of my soul into purpose. And realized that, it was. All a part of my journey. And I'm so grateful for my addiction, honestly, because it brought me to my purpose on this planet. And I'm so grateful for the suffering that I went through, because it brought me to this conversation here with you today. I believe that our greatest gifts lie in our greatest struggles. And yeah the. The 15 years that I spent a slave to addiction was my training program to, which brought me to the work that I'm doing now. Oh

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

Well, that's super powerful. Thank you for sharing.

HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Camera-2:

This episode of the Complete Retreat Podcast is brought to you by RetreatHelp. com, where conscious retreat owners go to sell out their events, increase revenue, simplify their business operations, and have a greater impact on the world with Retreat Help is changing the retreat industry with its dynamic and innovative business systems that allow retreat business owners to spend less time on tedious administrative tasks and more time doing what they love. Give us a call and let our experience and expertise accelerate your From creating professional, high performing websites that boost credibility, improve the customer experience, and increase sales, to setting up a complete technical system that grows your business on autopilot, 24 7, without you needing to manage it. Whatever your situation is, Retreat Helps got you covered. Whether you're new to the Retreat industry, or you're a well established veteran, save yourself time and money by leveraging RetreatHelp's comprehensive business solutions. Visit RetreatHelp. com and set up a call to learn more.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

I know that's a lot to have to bring up into To bring to the light and it sounds like you've done a lot of work to come to terms with that and just your perspective around that It's very much in alignment with my perspective on the things that we deal with in life our challenges those are the things that help make us who we are and teach us The biggest lessons I personally I nearly died from prescription medication. Oh, almost 11 years ago. And now I was put on a medication that was supposed to make me better. And I nearly bled to death from internal bleeding. And

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

my God.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

I consider that the. The worst, best thing that ever happened to me and had a near death experience essentially and that was really the start of my journey and trying to figure out what the hell is going on with life and what's life all about and just really seeking from that point. And so, yeah, that story is very powerful. And I hope that. People hear that and are in a place that is really challenging right now. Like anybody who hears that anything is possible. Like it's, and it's really in how we perceive and choose to perceive the situations that we're in dictate how we react to them and how we are able to move forward. So much of our. Our experience in life as human beings on this planet is dictated by our perceptions and we get to choose whether or not something is bad or good, bad or good or just labels that we place on our experiences or the things in our experience and just as we choose to label something as bad, we can so easily choose to label things as good and the fact that you've made that choice, I think is really inspiring and that anybody can achieve that and it just requires work a lot of work and there's a process to everything in life, but that's super beautiful. Thank you for sharing your story. And I guess what? So you sound like you tried many different modalities. Natural medicine, plant medicine, alternative healing, whatever you want to call it. From ayahuasca to iboga and microdosing. So what specifically about microdosing or psilocybin in general? Drew you to, to the path of where you are now helping teach facilitators that

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

Yeah. Thank you for saying all that. And I honor you as well for what you've been through almost dying from that medication and the journey that you've been on to, to overcome that is incredibly powerful and yeah, just receiving that. Experience from you as well is amazing. Thank you for all the work that you've done on yourself. So yeah, for the past, let's see, after I overcame the, well, the overcoming addiction was quite a long process and I feel like I'm still going through it and it's layers and layers. It's not just one moment where we suddenly overcome addiction. It's, So many different layers from releasing the physical withdrawals to now it's around releasing the identity of addiction and the belief of feeling to understanding that we can feel safe in the world beyond needing to take substances and I think we As people that go through addiction, we get programmed at a very young age that we have to be reliant on something for the rest of our lives. So it's a long unlearning process there. And ultimately the place that I'm at now is healing the underlying root causes that led me to my addiction in the first place. Cause that's what I understand now. It's not about the drugs being addictive. It's not about the, even the addiction itself. It's about what leads a person to want to escape themselves. And to, allow people to, to reconnect with how amazing they are as human beings and to want to create a life that we don't want to run away from. And that's really what the work has been for me of like, I've now created a life that I don't want to. I don't want to run away from it. I don't want to escape myself. I want to be here, be in this existence because I feel so much meaning and purpose now when I want that for other people. So for the last five years, I've been creating educational programs for over 25, 000 people worldwide through my work at the San Francisco Psychedelic Society. I also was on the founding team of Decriminalize Nature Oakland. We passed the first resolution to decriminalize all entheogenic Plants and fungi in the city of Oakland, which spread a global movement where over a dozen cities have adopted our same language. And throughout that time, I created two microdosing courses in collaboration with Adam Bramlage, Dr. Jim Fadiman And other practitioners that we collaborated with, and we had over 3000 people worldwide go through our programs with micro dosing, many of which are practitioners and doctors and nurses and all different types of individuals. And after we created these programs. Programs that were more focused on teaching people how to microdose on their own, we saw a need for more of a professional training for practitioners to be able to guide their clients through microdosing protocols. And so, yeah, that's what led to this next training, this new training program that we've developed. From all the work that we did teaching people and as well, I've been working as a microdosing coach for five years, working one on one with people and have a lot of experience, navigating different complex scenarios and cases with individuals, just like yourself. So I think, That experience that I've gained as well as that Adam is gained. We saw a need to develop this training program and also there's so many incredible teachers. We have over 20 guest teachers and faculty on our faculty of this training program, highlighting all these different areas. Because just like you said earlier, there's a lot of different complex cases that are going to come to microdosing experiences, and it's very nuanced in our approach. So, that's why we have so many different teachers from all these different areas of expertise to be able to train our practitioners to have the most comprehensive and holistic training on microdosing.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

having a support system that is that robust and extensive, where there are different doctors who with different specialties that you could reach out to or lean on or ask questions to. And even just the support system within the facilitator training itself is. Like, the value in that cannot be understated. I mean, People would come to me looking for relief from all kinds of things. This was back in the day when I was. Still facilitating microdosing from tinnitus, ringing of the ears, cancer patients, people with different neurological disorders, people with traumatic brain injuries, people with autism, people on the spectrum. One of the beautiful things about psilocybin is that it's such a diverse medicine. It can really help people with a an incredible range of ailments. And in order to be able to help a range of people effectively, there's different protocols and different applications, and even different strains, different amounts, different frequencies of microdosing for different people in different situations. And, even though. Somebody may personally have a lot of experience. Like that information is not just intuitive. You don't, you're not just going to know exactly how and what. Somebody is going to need and having that database of information that you can rely on through a training like yours or being associated with a group like yours, if somebody is listening to this, and they're thinking about wanting to be a micro dosing facilitator or provide this medicine for people in this way, I cannot underscore the importance of what Danielle is doing and the amount of information and knowledge that she's, gathered as a resource, because there are going to be so many times where somebody comes to you for help and you're just going to think, Oh, that, that is a completely random situation. What the hell do I do with that? How am I going to help this person? Is there a situation where microdosing could help this person potentially, probably, maybe? But like you're going to have, you're going to be doing a lot of your own research, a lot of reading and just having that resource again, that you're providing with this is, it's something I never had. And looking back at it now, it's like, how different would things have been? Like, how much easier would it have been if I had that kind of a support system? So that's an incredibly valuable. thing that you're putting together. And I just want to thank you for your work and bringing those resources together for people in a single space where people can have access to such a variety of information and people who are really experts in the field.

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

Thank you so much. Thank you for, I really appreciate you seeing the value in it. And, I feel like our work is to create and be the person that we wish we had. And that's part of why I created this program, is because. There's not enough of individuals that are understanding how to ethically hold these spaces. And I think people really want to and aren't resourced to. And that's why we've covered so many of our bases with this training from, we have Dr. Ben Malcolm, who teaches us about medication contraindications. He's a clinical pharmacist and How to safely support people that decide to titrate off of medications and which medications are higher risk to combine with micro dosing. We, we get to learn about the actual research and the studies that are being done on micro dosing from the researchers themselves. And people can ask them questions. All of our classes are live. So people get to access these practitioners. We even have my friend Reggie Harris from from hyphae labs. He's been doing all of this research on the underground where people submit samples of psilocybin mushroom strains, and they've identified hundreds of different strains and which strains are more suitable for micro dosing, which strains are more suitable for macro dosing. And the nuances there, because just like you were talking about, it's important that practitioners understand these differences. We I have, we just did our training session last night that taught about navigating complex trauma and microdosing and how to navigate that as a practitioner and when to refer out and how to support people in their sexual liberation process. I teach about microdosing for interrupting addiction and different specific tools to navigate. Help people navigate that process. We have intake forms. We have a whole process that we take people through. And and really our mission with this is to standardize the protocol and the support systems for microdosing and to have a community of support where people can bring their complex cases. They can bring their complex questions and they can get them Answer it in community and we don't have to just guess anymore. And so I'm really, yeah, I feel like it's incredible what we've developed and we're really at the infancy phase of it as well. Like this year, we're bringing on 5 new teachers and our guest faculty and incredible thought leaders into the program. We have had 55 students worldwide join our 1st cohort and we're launching our 2nd cohort, which starts in January.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

That is super exciting. And I started facilitating microdosing for people back in 2019, so it's been about five years since I was really heavily involved with that. And there was next to nothing. There was a couple of books and not a lot of research. And even still today, I mean, there, there's still, comparatively speaking, There's not a ton of research specifically about microdosing, so gathering that information is a, if you're doing it by yourself, is a very time consuming task, and it's just really a labor of love. And I know there are a lot of people who are really good intentioned, who want to get into helping others. Experience positive benefits from working with psilocybin and microdosing, but the amount of time and effort it takes to become competent in this without any sort of external guidance. It's. It's really a steep hill to climb and something that you mentioned that I thought of because I'm coming up on my 20 year anniversary from starting to, from when I first started working with psilocybin myself, but it'll be in December. And that's. When I was taking people on as micro dosing clients, I would tell them, I'd say, okay, in this 90 minute consultation, I'm going to condense 20, almost 20 years of personal experience into 90 minutes and give you everything that you need, like the things that are really important and really break it down so you can understand and, but I never got that talk. Nobody ever Transcribed said that to me or sat me down and was able to have that conversation with me. It was something that I had to develop on my own and it was, it just took so much time. And I'm really again, inspired by the work that you're doing and, excited that there are people out there who are doing the thing that I wished other, I wish somebody would do this. I would continue to think this. I wish somebody Would put all this together in a resource and train other people to do this because I mean, it's kind of the wild west. I would, I would, people would come to me. They're like, Oh, I was working with somebody else, or I tried something else, or I went online and I found this forum and I tried to follow this protocol or it's like, where do I get the mushrooms from? And I tried to order from some sketchy website with Bitcoin. And there's a lot that goes into it. And I heard from the people who would come to me, I wouldn't say horror stories, but. people would come to me in a state of frustration and like they'd spent a lot of time trying to figure it out on their own and they didn't get very far or they had results that were not satisfactory to them. And the way that you're doing it and the level of competency of the people that you're working with is pretty, pretty impressive. So I want to acknowledge that and kudos to you and I guess the. A question that I always have is like, what specifically about psilocybin? Because there's a lot of different things you can potentially microdose. What specifically about psilocybin is attractive to you and makes you want to work with it and develop this whole protocol around? psilocybin specifically.

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

That's a great question. So, at the centerpiece of this training is psilocybin and LSD microdosing. I believe that psilocybin is the most accessible. People can grow it in their homes. It's decriminalized. I think it's like 2 dozen cities at this point across the U. S. And it's the lower lowest risk profile of the medicines in terms of the micro dosing, and it's highly researched, at least in larger doses. Like you said, there's very little We're really at the infancy phase of microdosing research. There's very little microdosing research. Within the past year, the research has increased by 300%. Dr. Connor Murray, who is on our faculty, he did the first LSD microdosing study in the U S and they proved that microdosing is not a placebo, which is amazing. So we now have proof that even at lower doses, there is a An increase in the BDNF, which is the brain nootropic growth factor, and I'm really excited to see where microdosing research goes. It's very limited because there's a prohibition on the participants in the actual study, taking the microdose on their own. And so there's a study, I believe it's out of Australia that was able to do that, where they let the participants take it at home. But. The current framework for research in the U S prohibits from participants taking microdosing on their own. They have to come in and the clinic. And so there's a lot of barriers against microdosing research right now, but I think that we're going to see a big changes in that area. And yeah, psilocybin microdosing is from the research over, I think it was like over 3 million people or 4 million, million people worldwide have researched microdosing primarily with psilocybin. And yeah, the profile of high risk and contraindications is a lot lower with that. And people can forage it, people can grow it on their own. And it's, I think it's one of the most accessible substances for people to microdose. And in terms of LSD microdosing as well, I think that's Higher accessibility with that as well. Definitely lower accessibility of people to be able to access LSD. It can be both easy to dose and challenging to dose as well as psilocybin easy to dose and challenging to dose based on the type of psilocybin. Based on the type of LSD, the format it's coming. And, liquid is a lot easier to microdose with LSD versus tabs of LSD and with psilocybin. It's just people seem to have greater access to it because you can grow your own.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

And in regards to demographics and types of people who might benefit from microdosing, in your experience and with the work you've been doing, are there any certain profiles of people that have greater results with it? Who are you and, the people that are going through your training, what is their, target audience or who is coming to microdosing and who might benefit from this.

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

That's such a great question. There's so many different populations of people that can benefit from microdosing. I think a lot of the focus right now in the psychedelic space is on helping people that are. Sick or addicted get well. And I think that's really important. And we train on that. And we train to help people that are already doing well, that are already healthier to get even feel even better in their lives. So it's on such a spectrum from people that are dealing with chronic mental illnesses and brain injury and trauma and addiction and. A lot of most of the populations I see are people that are on psychiatric drugs, wanting to get off psychiatric drugs and wanting to use microdosing to support them getting off of that. We're really the only training program in the world that teaches practitioners how to support people that. Are either interrupting addiction with microdosing or helping them get off of psychiatric drugs if they so choose with microdosing, there's millions of people that are stuck on psychiatric drugs and don't know how to get off of them. I was one of those people, so I'm so passionate about helping people that decide that they want to get off medications through the use of microdosing and then a big focus is on helping people just. Get well that, there's people that are healthy and, but they don't feel motivated or they don't feel like they have access to their creativity or they don't feel life purpose or there's areas that they want to expand. And they're just interested in the personal growth attributes of microdosing or endurance. There's a lot of people that have found microdosing can be helpful for. Exercise and motivation. So, we don't really prevent any specific person unless someone is higher risk. There's definitely higher risk profiles like mothers or that are breastfeeding pregnant women. There is some research that is being done on breastfeeding women, people with mitral valve cancer. I'm Dr. Noah Herman. Buh bye. Bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or psychosis are much higher risk and need to have a lot more care and support around those populations of people. But we really, view microdosing can be accessible is, can be much more accessible for greater populations of people than potentially macrodosing, definitely for older people as well. People that are in their eighties or even nineties, people that are dealing with Alzheimer's and different. mental health type of conditions. There's, there's, we're really at the infancy phase of understanding its applications on so many different populations of people. But because it's such lower doses the risk potential profile is a lot lower for certain populations of people. And we also have Dr. Jim Fadiman, who's my mentor. He's on the training. He's on the faculty. We have multiple sessions with him. He's the elder, he's the reason why we do this work. I just want to honor him for all of the work that he's done in the psychedelic field. For those that are new to Dr. Jim Fadiman, he's one of the original researchers. He's been researching psychedelics since the sixties. He pioneered the first creativity research with psychedelics. with LSD as well as the first research study with psychedelics and addiction, he's been, he's the reason why microdosing is popularized in the modern world. He stewarded that process. He wrote the first book about it introducing microdosing. He's about to come out with his new microdosing book. He's been. Gathering experience reports from thousands of people worldwide. He's the most knowledgeable person about micro dosing. And, he said that this training is the most comprehensive training on micro dosing that exists. And he shows up for our faculty and our community and answers all the questions that people have around micro dosing. And yeah that's, a little bit about who this is for.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

Thank you. That was very, yeah, very comprehensive. I guess the flip side to that question is, are there any groups of people or populations that microdosing is problematic for, or it's a hard no?

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

Yes, I love that question. I think a hard no is someone that's just looking to microdosing to do all the work for them. A hard no is someone that's not wanting to put in work on themselves. We view microdosing as like riding an electric bike. You still have to pedal, and it can accelerate your process, but you are a participant in that process. Someone that's looking to microdose to solve all their problems, take away all their pain to viewing microdosing as a magic bullet or a quick fix that wants to give all their power away to microdosing is not a good fit for the microdosing protocol. And then people that are. Potentially not ready to have either big shifts in their lives or subtle shifts in their lives are not suitable for micro dosing. As you've worked with so many people. Even tiny doses can create huge shifts and we have to be ready for that. And Sometimes people aren't ready for that. especially people that have been through complex trauma, it's more comfortable to stay traumatized or to stay stuck than it is to expand or grow and evolve. And so people really have to be ready to change and transform in the ways that could potentially be stewarded from microdosing. And the research shows that, microdosing has the potential to steward neuro neurogenesis and neuroplasticity. And what We're understanding from that is that neuroplasticity and neurogenesis is the growth of new neurons new ways of thinking and reacting to the world, new thought patterns, but that in and of itself is inherently neutral. So it can be positively influenced or negatively influenced. We are. We influence our own neuroplasticity in our brains. We change our brains based on what we think, based on our behaviors, based on the actions we take. I know that you teach a lot about this and a lot of the coaching that you do have seen a lot of your work as well, and I really appreciate you that for that. So, we empower people to recognize the role that they play in their own healing process, and if they don't, If they aren't willing to really step up to the altar and take that accountability and have that sovereignty and ownership, then they're not suitable for microdosing. And then, of course, these high risk populations like schizophrenia, psychosis, bipolar disorder, uh, are much higher risk and I can't really speak to that. That's not really my lane of expertise, but might not be suitable for microdosing because microdosing could potentially exacerbate those symptoms. I know there are, there is going to be research in that area. So I don't want to speak too much to that, but there's certain, populations of people that are much higher risk and then individuals that are on a litany of psychiatric drugs. They, it is recommended to slowly taper. I don't want to say I'm recommending this, but, from the risk potential of combining microdosing with so many different psychiatric drugs, Dr Ben Malcolm, our clinical pharmacist, he speaks about it's important to not have so many different drugs. at play. So, people that are on five or six drugs would probably have to titrate down to maybe one or two to start microdosing and with the intention of using the microdosing to safely come off of these other medications. So, yeah, I would say those are some of the individuals that are not suitable for microdosing right now.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

Thank you, and I appreciate that at the very end, right now. Something you touched on And in the beginning the people who don't want to take responsibility for the results in their life, or they want the microdose to do the work for them. This is something that I noticed and I came to realize relatively early on. And I was seeing this pattern with the people I was working with. And at a certain point, I realized like, okay, what's going on here is let's zoom on and take a look at this and it's like, part of this is cultural programming from the time when we're very young, we are taught if your head hurts, you take the yellow pill, your stomach hurts, you take the blue pill. If you're feeling anxious, you take the red pill. And. Our Western system of medicine is almost entirely reactive. You start to feel bad, and then you reach for a medicine to make you feel better. You start to feel bad, and then you reach for something to alleviate the symptoms of that. So we're we're brought up in this society where medicine makes us, it's supposed to make us better. And again, like you said, we give our power away to the thing, the medication, the pharmaceutical, whatever it is. So for many people, it's very counterintuitive. The best way to manage our health our wellbeing, our physical wellbeing, our psychological wellbeing is not a reactive way of doing things. It's more proactive. And with our Western medical system being so. The flip side to that is more traditional forms of medicine, like, traditional Chinese medicine Amazonian shamanism, like really more culturally traditional medicines or forms of healthcare. Where it's, they don't wait till you're sick to give you something. The purpose of traditional Chinese medicine, when you're working with a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, they work with you on a regular basis to, to try to keep you at optimal health. And they monitor you. If you start to fall off a little bit they give you something to bring you back in alignment so that you don't have those big pitfalls, so that you don't fall into a deep state of depression, so that you're not into in this hole that you have to dig yourself out of. Taking responsibility for our own well being is. It's not something we're taught, quite frankly.

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

Yeah.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

It's just not. We're very much taught the opposite. Take something to make you feel better. It takes a lot for people to break out of that, quite frankly. In a lot of ways, it's, it is more comfortable to just say, Oh, the pill didn't work. The doctor gave me the wrong pill. Put the onus on the healthcare system for our own well being and ultimately when people start to take responsibility for the things we put into our body, the environments we put ourselves in, the amount of sleep we get, the amount of stress we choose to expose ourselves to. I think when that starts to shift and For people who micro dosing is potentially a better fit are going to be people who are ready to, it's almost a lifestyle. It's a way of being like you are in control of your well being and people who recognize that and live by that will quite often do exceedingly better. With getting results from a microdosing protocol. So what you said there is incredibly powerful and I think speaks to a more of our society at large and the fact that some people that there are groups of people who for lack of better word are in that. Programming or in that mental environment and they choose to see things that way. And until some, until they choose to take ownership of their own wellbeing, it's. Even if somebody could potentially benefit from microdose, if they don't have the right mindset and I'm curious about the, the screening process and intake process that you teach to your facilitators, but if somebody is not, they might check all the boxes, but if they don't have the right mindset they're still not going to get the results. Yeah, with the facilitators and as you start to roll out this training, how much of an emphasis do you put on the, the state of like the person's mindset who's coming in and like the potential microdosing client?

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

Yeah. Thank you for everything that you saId. I really appreciate you speaking to the cultural conditioning and programming that we're working with and how difficult it can be to help people evolve out of that. And so, we don't expect people to come in with the mindset of That they actually know how to approach these medicines. That's why we teach our practitioners how to teach people that as long as someone comes in with the mindset of openness and willing to learn, I think that's the best mindset that they can come into something that's really important that I teach about is, so much of what. Just kind of zooming out the cultural context that we're working in right now is that, psychedelics are schedule one drugs. They're illegal and they've been suppressed. And the more that we do this work and liberate them, we it's important that we don't. Create the relationship with psychedelics from a colonized lens, meaning what can I get from this medicine? Or what can it do for me? And if we approach it in that way, it's negating the fact that we're taking in another consciousness into our body. And so we really teach practitioners to teach their clients around that. This is like a triad or quadrat relationship that people are working with. It's the relationship of the facilitator and the client. It's a relationship with the client and the medicine. The facilitator has a relationship with the medicine and then there's the spirit world as well. So there's so many different relationships that are happening. And it's important that we bring that into existence and acknowledge these different relationships that are forming. And we really teach people How to form a healthy, loving relationship with the substance to speak to the medicine, to have conversations with it, to understand that it's a reciprocal relationship. Like how do I give and receive to this medicine instead of approaching it from this colonizing mindset of what can I get from this? What can it do for me? What can it take away from me? Like how can I use this to heal? Give back to community, to give back to myself, to expand, to learn, to grow and evolve. Like I feel like me being on this podcast today, even you being here, this is giving back to the medicines for how much that they've helped us. I feel the medicine speaking through me when I say that. So it's really about. Approaching it as a relationship and we, like you said, we're not conditioned to approach substances and relationship at all. We don't bring, we're not conditioned to bring intentionality to substances or to relationship. And that's some of what I teach as well, like in the program around interrupting addiction with psychedelics. I literally teach people to bring the same intentionality and reverence and love to the drugs that they're addicted to the drugs that they're wanting to bring into their body. Like, I think that intentionality and that relationship is so healing for people. And so I think, yeah, having the mindset of, we have to teach the mindset, that we want with our clients. We have to teach people what it means to be in reciprocity with medicine, what it means to be in relationship with medicine, what it means to listen to a medicine and acknowledge that we're bringing. another consciousness into our bodies. I believe that these plant fungal spirit molecules, they want to learn from us as much as we want to learn from them. So yeah, it's a mutual loving relationship that we have with them.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

That's super powerful and, like, really touched me emotionally because that's how I feel about the mushrooms, it's like that friend who I don't talk to all that often, but when I pick up the phone, they're always there. They're like, Hey, what's up? It's so good to hear from you again. And we pick up the conversation right where we left off. And it's always beautiful. Beautiful. And there is, it is reciprocal, there is a give and take. It is a relationship. I remember I would say that to my clients. I said, I can give you, based on your situation, X, Y, Z, like I can give you the best recommendations, but ultimately you have to create and formulate a relationship with this medicine. I never wanted it to be a codependent sort of relationship between myself or the person the medicine and the person. Like having that conversation right up front, I think is really important because we see codependency in the Western medical system everywhere. It's a part of that system. Like you, you go on a medication and you're expected to be on it for the rest of your life. That is. Exactly what codependency is dependency on something. And I think framing the relationship and microdosing from the very beginning as. a relationship that has give and take and making people aware of the potentials of codependency what that looks like when they're beginning, like, this is something different. This can be something that's completely different. This can be, A special like relationship between you and this medicine, like I can help give you the tools and the information and even give it to you, but ultimately the results that you get in your experience with it is going to be dependent upon how you treat it and

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

Yes. Hmm.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

you is going to be a reflection of how you treat it in your thoughts, in your actions, and how you talk about it. And I even think so far as to, if you're hiding it. If it's something that's that you treat as a dirty little secret, like that energy is in your interaction with it. And, I understand that there are going to be situations where it's maybe not ideal for somebody to be, broadcasting Their personal relationship with mushrooms or microdosing, like, I totally get that. And I always think back to the Terence McKenna quote, and I'm going to paraphrase it, but it's, if you're quiet about the positive experiences you have with these medicines, You're doing the man's work for him. And I remember when I first heard that it just like, hit me like a lightning bolt. If I'm in the closet about my experiences and I'm scared to talk about them, I'm doing the man's work for him. I'm doing the work that like these oppressive systems and these old cultural mindsets and these, just this old way of being, like I am perpetuating, I'm doing exactly what they want me to do. I'm perpetuating this. the stigma around this medicine. And I remember when I heard that, I was like, Oh, I guess I can never be in the closet again. Like, I will. Okay. Yeah, I guess I'm just, I'm out, I'm open about it. And wow, like that's incredibly powerful. And, Something you touched on, and I'd like to, I'd like to get into a little bit more here before we wind this down, is zooming out and looking at the broader landscape of the legality and the accessibility to these medicines. And I guess, as somebody who's really in the space, and somebody who's kind of leading the charge, so to speak, what are you seeing and what are your thoughts and what do you see for the future of microdosing as far as accessibility and doctors being able to prescribe it and this being a more viable option for people on a broad scale,

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

The revolution will not just be medicalized. I think that medicalization is incredibly important. And my prayer is that there will be multiple pathways for access. I, speaking to this historical context the war on drugs. primarily impacts marginalized communities and people of color. And if we just medicalize psychedelics, this, the people that have been most impacted by the war on drugs will never gain access to these medicines. And so I'm really passionate about having the access be expanded to anyone that wants to, I want people to have their own relationship with these substances. Back when I worked on decriminalized nature, Oakland, we talked about, it's similar to. Growing vegetables or growing fruit. Like you can buy blueberries at the farmer's market. You can grow your own blueberries, or you can buy blueberries from, the market at the store and it's gone through 11 different refrigerators before it gets to your home. And I don't grow. Blueberries. But and I'm sure that it's nuanced with different, what it means to be organic versus not and different licenses that you need to be a mass scale blueberry grower. But, there's no regulation on me having a blueberry farm. If I want to do that in my backyard. So at least that I'm aware of. So, I think it's important that medicalization exists. I want there to have, People to have access to doctors that can and therapists that can facilitate these experiences and I think there should be personal use. I think recreational use can be really healing for people. I think there should be supported use. I think it's so important that as we roll out any type of legalization that we don't replicate the same system as cannabis that came out where, it really prevented legacy growers and people from having their own businesses. And now it's just more of like corporate licensure. I think religious use is a part of it. Ceremonial use. Like how do we protect the fact that there's a huge lineage behind psychedelics, that have been used for. Thousands and thousands of years, not just by indigenous communities, but the original ancestors that I learned about from my business partner, Adam, is, the first ancestors of psychedelics were animals. We learned about psychedelics and microdosing from animals. So, this is, I think it's important that we view this as more of like a birthright to have a healthy relationship with these substances and to not limit the access to just one particular Avenue. And I, I work with different statewide initiatives and they see this too, so I'm really excited that there's going to hopefully be multiple different sites. Lanes of access for individuals and at the centerpiece for me is education and that's what we promise City Council in Oakland. That's what I, my work is all about education, and really approaching this. Third wave of psychedelics is approaching it with supported use, with intentionality, with education, with harm reduction. And if we can do that, then I really think that we're going to be able to steward this movement moving forward in a really great way.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

allowing people to have their own relationship with the medicine on their terms. along with education, like you said, is, I think, the most reasonable, logical, and ethical way forward. And, what you said there about, allowing people to have recreational experiences with it and not stigmatize it or call it bad or illegal or criminalize people for wanting to have that experience or non medical, in non medical context, like you said, you mentioned recreational and just different contexts, like personal growth even, or ceremonial use. That's super powerful and What you were saying about allowing people to have their own relationship with the medicine, whether that's grow it themselves, get it from somebody they know, so that they are not required to go through some other system or through a doctor or through some sort of, jump through a bunch of hoops. I think it's really important because Like you said, the mushrooms, they grow wild. These are like, how do you legislate something that is a part of nature on some, in some sense that just. that is completely makes no sense whatsoever. I have grown mushrooms pretty extensively myself and just that experience, like anybody who's got a garden knows what that's like, like, eating the food that's out of your garden and eating mushrooms and using mushrooms that you've grown yourself and put your energy into and your excitement and gone through the whole process it's a completely different experience. There's just no. Other way to put it, like when you take them from spore all the way to ceremony, it is like the experience is just different and it's hard to put a value, a number of value on that. It's hard to, it's hard to like really pinpoint what that difference is. But there is a. An intangible level of depth to the experience that you have with your own, with the medicine you've grown yourself. That includes cannabis, that includes food from your garden, food is medicine in my belief. And especially with psilocybin too, that holds true for psilocybin. And if people knew how really easy it is to grow psilocybin, I think more people would do it. And if it, for real, it's really not that hard. They grow on cow patties out in the pasture, in the right, with the right amount of humidity. So it's like If people, if more people knew how easy it was and that they could in just a couple batches grow enough for a year or two for an entire family. I mean, it's They're super, prolific. It doesn't require a lot of time or money or space or fancy equipment to grow enough mushrooms that you can start to develop that relationship on your own. And I super appreciate your patience. Your acknowledgment of that and the fact that it doesn't need to be a medicalized thing. It can just be a regular thing that people who choose to can engage with if they want. And giving people that, that personal freedom and the ability to develop that relationship on their terms. If they choose to. And so that's, I love that. I love that. And it is my belief too that at a certain point it's just not going to make sense to, to continue to criminalize people for having these medicines and if we have common sense laws that allow regular people to do regular things like grow them that will help alleviate the stigma around it and that's There will be more people will be interested in self educating in that circumstance because you have to learn a little bit more about it. And I think the cornerstone of what you said is education, like how vitally important education is. And, to wrap this up and bring it full circle all the way back to the microdosing facilitator training, which is incredibly focused on Education educating the people so that they can educate the people that they're working with. That's such a beautiful offering. And, I'm going to leave the last word to you if there's I know you mentioned the dates, but yeah, could you please let us know how we can get ahold of you the website for the facilitator training your different offerings. It sounds like you got a lot going on. So please tell us how people can get Involved in and interact with the offerings that you present

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having me on the podcast and being, for the work that you do with your clients in the field and work that you have done for so long and for, platforming our work with the microdosing facilitator training and flow state. I really appreciate it. Appreciate it. So the ways that. People can connect with us. Our new website is going to be live in just a couple of days. It's flowstatenow. com or microdosing. training or microdosingfacilitatortraining. They all go to the same place, but primarily flowstatenow. com and I also have, The San Francisco Psychedelic Society, which is a nonprofit that I'm the director of. You can find me on Instagram, connect with D and LinkedIn and Facebook. And yeah, for anyone that's interested in joining our training, the first Day of our next cohort is January 19th. We love to have calls with people. If people are interested in joining the training, we always give a call for anyone to explore the training to see if it's the right fit for them. We would be honored to have anyone that's part of your community join our training program. And I'm always available as well to connect with people and provide support and consultation. And, I. I live my life in dedication to this psychedelic work and make myself very accessible for people. So I'm really honored to do that. And thank you again for the opportunity to present today.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

daniel. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you deeply Although all the links for your websites will be in the show notes for anybody who wants to see them We will have to touch base and do this again I'm sure you'll have more offerings coming out and i'd love to hear as this program evolves and grows i'd love to see you know, maybe a year from now year and a half from now where things go And and just More broadly, with the decriminalization of psychedelics on the forefront, like, I appreciate your work, and thank you for coming on, and yeah, I have a feeling this won't be the last chat that we have.

squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024_121955:

You might see us in other countries. We just got our first Thailand student. Thailand just legalized psilocybin therapy. I did not know just recently. Yeah, so we just got a new student from Thailand, someone from the UK. So we're going global and I'm excited to. To expand to, other jurisdictions that aren't as psychedelically informed as we are. So yeah, we'll see where the fractal of expansion takes us.

ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955:

Can't wait, I can't wait to see, and I'm looking forward to seeing where this all goes to. Alright everybody, be well and take care.