Brush & Banter | A Zibra Podcast

Marketing Yourself as an Artist Without Feeling Salesy

• Brie Hansen, Annie Bolding, & Lauren Cooper • Season 6 • Episode 16

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Marketing advice online often pushes creators toward trends, virality, and constant output, but it turns out that’s not what actually builds a sustainable business. This minisode brings together insights from Shannon McKinstrie, Off the Walls Murals, and Alyssa Vilardi to show what really moves the needle: clear messaging, content that makes people feel connected, and paying attention to the metrics that actually matter (like retention, not just reach). It’s a shift from chasing spikes to building something steady, from underpricing to standing behind your value, and from guessing what works to creating with intention, so that your marketing feels like an extension of your work, not something separate from it.


In this episode, you’ll hear:

  • Why building genuine community matters more than chasing one viral moment
  • The one element that stops the scroll (and it's not what you think)
  • The metric Instagram cares about that most creators ignore
  • Why designing for the algorithm doesn't mean losing yourself
  • The pricing mistake almost every creative makes
  • How certification turns assistants into brand ambassadors
  • The financial sustainability detail most creatives overlook


Hit rewind on these episodes:

Welcome to Brush & Banter—the podcast where creativity meets real-life hustle. Brought to you by Zibra, we go beyond perfect brushstrokes to explore the messy, magical, and meaningful side of being an artist. We’re here to bring you conversations with working artists, practical tips to grow your creative business, and a built-in painting companion for your next project. 

Brush & Banter is co-hosted by Brie Hansen, President of Zibra; Annie Bolding, Founder of It’s a Disco Day Designs; and Lauren Cooper, Founder of Rosemont Lane Design Studio.

Connect with Zibra: 

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to another special episode of Russian Banter. I'm Bri Hansen, president of Zebra, and co-host of the show. This week we're pulling together some of the most actionable advice from past episodes to help you move your creative business forward. In this mini sode, we're talking about marketing, but in a way that actually feels natural. Because showing your work, telling your story, and getting clients shouldn't feel like you're constantly selling. You'll hear from Shannon McKinstry, Off the Wall Murals, and Alyssa Bellardi as they share how connection, visibility, and authenticity all play a role in growing your business. Without choosing trends or forcing content that doesn't feel like you. Our hope is that this episode helps you think about marketing as an extension of your work, not something separate from it. So when someone says, I want to grow on Instagram, what's the first thing you want them to understand how growth actually works?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think, well, one of the things I always tell people before, I always like to say messaging before anything. Like figure out your messaging, figure out why people want to buy from you, what makes them want to follow you, right? And a lot of it is, you know, building a community and making sure that people feel like connected to you guys, is especially with you guys, like a product. Like products still have a personality, if you will, right? It's the people, it's the culture, et cetera. So the biggest thing I tell people before they even start is before you even try to start posting, like understand why you're showing up, who is gonna want to follow you, um, and really get to know them. So I always think market research is the best thing to do before you even start posting, so that you don't get frustrated. Yeah. Um, and when it comes to growth, especially right now in 2026, the biggest shift we're seeing is just like you're sure aesthetics are still, I guess, you know, part of Instagram's uh thing vibe, but it's really about belonging. So the more that even if it's a product or a service or a personal brand, you want to make sure you feel like you're inviting people into this world of yours, if you will. So it's beyond just content. I think everyone just thinks like, oh, I what do I need to post and what's gonna get me to grow when really it's like what's gonna make people feel like they belong, what's gonna help them, what's gonna make them feel connected to you. Um, start there rather than worrying about algorithm and things first, because that's where it gets tricky and you just start comparing and overthinking.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's so important.

SPEAKER_04

And speaking of overthinking, I feel like obviously the hit word is always like viral, viral, what's gonna go viral? So if you're gonna pull that back, like do you have a definition of a healthy and sustainable growth for some small creators? Where like obviously we all want to go viral, but like what kind of strategy do you have there to just have that good relationship with Instagram?

SPEAKER_03

Even just setting your own personal goal, like if it is followers, you know, but don't make it crazy, you know. It like some people might get 100 new followers a month, some people might have a viral spike and then they get 10,000 off one reel. And that doesn't always happen. I just hope people know that that's not the norm. It happens. Um, and actually a friend of mine, she just went from 50k to 100k in like a month, and it's crazy. She's like, oh my gosh, what just happened? I'm like, yeah, it happens sometimes, and then it will kind of slow down a bit and then ramp up again. So there's no real average, if you will, right? It just really depends on creating that content that's going to resonate and be shareable and keep people watching. So especially with people in the art world too, right? Retention is such a big thing right now. Like, that's like you can look at it your insights if you go to your real or if you scroll all the way down in insights, it'll say retention. You can see how long people stuck around. And Instagram is really looking at that. So, what's cool for a lot of people in the art space? I'm like, dude, retention's gonna be awesome for you guys. Cause if you're creating something, we're we want to see the final result. So I would focus on if you want to grow, focus on creating content that retention is high, watch time is high, it's gonna get pushed out more and more and more. Um, but you know, I've had viral spikes and I've gained some followers, but I mean, it's more so it's interesting. I feel like more of the content of mine that doesn't go crazy gets the most followers. My talk to cameras that might not go crazy, but they'll get hundreds of new followers off one reel. And my viral ones, you know, I'll get I'll get some, but it's not like I don't know, it's interesting. I think people have gotten more picky with who they follow. Yeah, and a lot of times my viral content is like one of those silly trends and it's like funny. And that doesn't really lead to the follows. What really leads to the follows is if they feel connected to you, and that's usually talking to camera, carousels, introducing yourself, things like that.

SPEAKER_01

That that is such good advice because I feel like for us it's been very up and down, and I some of us like our real views are just like, oh gosh, and we we get a little down in the dumps, but you just have to like you have to keep going, you have to still show up and you have to still be consistent, like as you always say, because I think you will have those times. And you know, there are certain things that you should do on Instagram to help it, but at the end of the day, something is gonna take off that you didn't expect, and that's okay, but you're probably not gonna be able to repeat that. You just have to keep keep connecting and I think still staying true to you, which you said, because it's it's so unpredictable. But um that's really good to know about the retention thing. I didn't even realize that was a thing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's like a big one of their big new insights that they gave us, and it's like it takes up an entire part of the insight. So like, ooh, this must be important. And then they came out saying that you know, retention's a really big deal. So um, but you know, it just comes down to watch time and like getting in watch time. I think a lot of people uh only uh assume watch time is reels, but watch time is also carousels. So if you have a carousel, you want to make sure they're going to the end. And um again, you just gotta make sure the content's interesting enough to keep watching or interesting enough to keep swiping. And if it is, it's gonna do really, really well.

SPEAKER_01

So when you're evaluating a reel that performs well, um, what do you think are the elements that usually matter the most? Is it the the con the actual content of it? Um, is it the hook, the emotion of it? What do you think is like if someone's kind of not knowing where to start, where do you think the biggest focus should be?

SPEAKER_03

I think hooks and I because there are some reels that I'm like, this is so dumb. Like, what did this go viral? But it's because the hook is so good. It's literally like a five-second video of someone like pouring a cup of coffee and just the hook on screen is so good. And so it went viral. Yeah, and it's like the video's dumb, like it's not um, but you know, I just I love it though, because it's just shows that if you can write a really good hook, right, you can do really, really well on Instagram. And so I think the biggest thing, and I talk about it a lot, I call them just identifiers, people can call them, you know, whatever you want. There's I don't know if there's a technical term for it, but it's adding in and like infusing words into that hook that they recognize themselves. So I actually gave an example on my podcast episode, one that just came out today, of one that went viral and it said I forget how exactly what it said, but it said how something about like money roles for me, my husband and I, as a married couple. So I'm like, okay, if someone's a married couple, they're probably gonna go, ooh, I'm married, what's this about? Um and then when it says about money, they're like, ooh, I would I need to type my finances, let me read it, right? And it went totally crazy viral for her. Um, and she's just talking to the camera and sitting at her coffee table, right? Um, but another thing I noticed is the visual hook, right? So there's also that visual hook that she had, which was like she had like paints out, and it was really interesting. Like, and it's like the the video was about money and as a married couple. She had like little paints out and she's sitting at her coffee table just talking. So it almost feels like you're you just interrupted her in her hobby, and she's like talking to you. And that is a brilliant way to create a reel right now. I'm noticing, is like adding in something kind of analog based, like someone some it's something besides like what you do, it's out, or even you guys would have like brushes out and things. Right. It almost like it slows our brains down. We're like, ooh, what's she talking about? But it just feels authentic and like we just caught her in the moment. Um so if your hooks have an identifier, um, I've even I even came up with a formula I like to call the REP, which is something relatable, something expertise, and something personal. Okay. You don't have to include all three. But what that would look like, like for me, it's like my favorite content creation tools maybe from Amazon as a type B creator.

SPEAKER_01

Something like that. Okay, good example.

SPEAKER_03

That's an example, right? So the relatable would be Amazon, because they're gonna see that word and go, oh, I that I recognize that. By relatable, I just mean recognizable, familiar, right? Something that they're like, oh, okay, I know what that is. Expert is me saying that as a creator. So they're like, okay, she's a creator. And then the personal is type B, right? But that's also kind of they all kind of intertwine. Right. But that's not to get too technical, but the more you can add in something that they can attach to, the better, whether it's a brand name, a season of life they're in, right? Like empty nesters, millennial moms, right? Like saying something like that is gonna make us stop because we're selfish and we don't want to see content we want to see.

SPEAKER_05

If you are in the Airbnb space, which is what, you know, as much as I would I was making a house for me to live in, I was more so making a house that was going to get booked. Um, and so it does come with like just a different, not I mean, yeah, maybe different mindset. You know, this is something that I'm thinking of like, okay, this wallpaper has to be bright, this has to stand out, these murals need to attract something in somebody that's gonna make them book. And so it is interesting that there can be the different mindsets that are you know in our heads as we're designing these spaces for different reasons. Um, I love that your style was born because you had to move so quickly. And I feel like mine was just spent studying so much about the Airbnb space, studying the top houses that are getting booked and and seeing what's trending while also trying to make sure like I'm gonna design something that ultimately does feel good for us too.

SPEAKER_04

If you haven't seen this, that is one of my favorite murals that Annie's ever done in her Airbnb. There's like the sun room, and then this cool kind of like record, I don't know how to describe it, spinny thing with the flowers and like lettering.

SPEAKER_05

It's our like breakfast nook area. Yeah, and it's it catches all the sun and it's orange, and I painted the it's like a big like nook um like built-ins. And so the the panels are painted orange, the table's orange, and then the wall is just like everything. It's all very bright.

SPEAKER_04

Your style speaks like so loudly in that space, and it is actually you, which is really cool and inspiring. I feel like there's a lot of um opportunity to find the way to speak to a client through Airbnb, which definitely like has my head spinning. I mean, I I've painted a lot of Airbnbs, and so I have had the opportunity to like really kind of use the branding aspect that goes into business of like really learning who it's for, um, what the outcome is, and then like so when you're your own client, I can just imagine that there's a lot going on behind the scenes in that process.

SPEAKER_00

I really think you can combine both though, too, because while ultimately I'm designing my own home for myself and for my tastes, I'm a content creator, and so everything that I'm designing in the back of my mind is also okay, how is this gonna perform in the algorithm? Is my following going to like this? Is this going to bring value to my page? And so I'm constantly thinking about that. And like, okay, need to go bigger, need to go bolder, need to go all of this because that's where the where the internet is nowadays. So I do have to combine those things. It's hard sometimes, I think, to not lose yourself and your style when thinking about that. But ultimately, as a I mean, as a business owner, you do have to think about those. And I think you really did a really great job of like combining what made you happy and showing off your talent, but also creating a space that like would absolutely be bookable.

SPEAKER_05

Thank you. Yes, uh, yes, and it's it's been super fun. Part of the reward has been seeing we get a lot of bachelorette parties, and I love seeing pictures of the girls like posing in front of all the murals, and that it is like so rewarding, and I'm sure that you get the same feeling, you know, if somebody purchases from you and then they're showing it off too, it's like that's a that's a fun moment of of joy and and payoff for all the work that goes in.

SPEAKER_04

So marketing, you guys like are sparking my mind right now with content creation, marketing. Have you guys ever used something intentionally in your projects or homes where you're like low-key? I kind of know that if I tag this person or if I use this paint color, like it might position me in a better place. Like, I'm thinking a lot of people have been using hidden gem, which is like Bear's color of the year, and kind of intentionally, like, do you guys ever make those choices where you're like, maybe this isn't so much for me, but like I know that this is a good idea, marketing-wise, content-wise?

SPEAKER_00

I would say I do for sure. I mean, I never do it like even if I don't like it. I always make sure that I like it. Like, like I said, authenticity is really important to me. So if it's not authentically me, I don't do it. But unfortunately, like you kind of do need to grab that attention within the first three seconds. That's just content creation. And I've learned over time that what can sometimes be helpful is showing off, like, okay, I'm using this gaudy color. Like, I'm about to paint, I haven't done it yet. I'm about to paint my daughter's nightstand, this like chartreusey green. And I know for certain that it's going to pop off. And because it's an allowed color, it's a color that makes people go, whoa, I love it, or whoa, I hate it, why would you do that? You know what I mean? And so being able to create something that we wanted to do in the first place, but placing that color in the first few seconds of that content sometimes does benefit your content creation.

SPEAKER_05

Uh yeah, I feel like for me, if I know that I'm using like loud, bright colors, that's always gonna hit. People really just love to see that. I think for me, what's been fun has been that my love of disco has coincided with the world thinking that disco balls are suddenly really cool. So I think that that's part of the thing that I have been lucky about is that like my brand just kind of towed the line of this is trendy right now. So I have been able to capitalize on the fact that, like, yeah, everybody loves a good disco ball moment.

SPEAKER_00

So there's a whole section in the Halloween part of Target that's just like disco and pink and orange, and it's perfect. I I live, I live, I'm I'm loving it all.

SPEAKER_04

On your forms, you have your ranges, and then within that range, you said that you explain a little bit about like what you get within that range, because obviously everyone is always picking the lower range on my end, and whenever someone picks like the middle or the higher, I'm like, heck yes. But everyone's doing like the three to five K range, which is my lower range right now. I must be doing something wrong. So I should describe in there kind of like what you get for that.

SPEAKER_06

So, like what our first point of contact after look, we'll send them a forum and be like, give us the size of your wall, um, what's your budget? And a lot of times people are like, I don't know. Um, so we'll be like, we'll quote the whole wall, and a lot of times it doesn't match with their budget, right? Um, and be like, well, your wall's 10 grand, but you have a 3k budget or whatever. Like, here's full coverage, here's full detail. Um, and then we have like, I mean, this is skimming over half of our process. We have like a whole, it depends on their style, right? Because we have different styles, like something quicker to install would be cheaper, something more detail and more like compact would be more expensive. Um, so after we discuss that more in detail with them, then we can kind of give them a range. Be like, um, because we don't want to lose them to their budget if it's still reasonable. Um, so we'll be like, here's where you can get like the most bang for your buck. This is like high impact, or be like, if you have, you know, a smaller budget, like we don't say it like that, but like, you know, if you have like a$2,000 budget, you can still get something really awesome. Um, and this is what we can do for you.

SPEAKER_02

We've quoted some really massive projects before, and we're like, okay, that was scary. Um, I feel like we actually have the opposite problem. Like, we always undercut undercut ourselves. We're like, you know what? We actually could have gotten more for this project. Um, and so we've just recently started to be like, no, like we know our worth, we know our value, we know what other people are charging. Even though the price tag might be bigger than we are personally comfortable spending, like if we were gonna buy this mural, we are not our ideal client. We are not these corporations that we're painting for. And so we have to try to take ourselves out of the equation, which I think was especially early on, kind of a sticking point for us in pricing. We're like, we are not a big company with these budgets. So seeing these numbers that we're quoting feels scary. So then we would undercut ourselves, get the project, and we're like, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_05

I feel like that's such a wonderful aha moment. I'm not my ideal client. Because no, I mean, obviously, yeah, sometimes I've quoted projects where I'm like, oh my god, that was so high, it scared me. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, I'm not this big brand with millions of dollars backing it. I'm not, I just love that. So thank you so much. That was a beautiful golden nugget moment for me to even hear.

SPEAKER_04

I did an in-person workshop with where I met Sam, who's one of my lead painters, and what I call it is Rosemont Lane certified. So you guys could kind of like use that where like when you're explaining to the clients, because that's the other hard thing, is you're like, oh, I have the communication, you're reaching out to us, but you're gonna work with my lead painter, Sam, who's Rosemont Lane certified. It just kind of like feels a little bit more of that like professional vibe.

SPEAKER_06

I love that. Thank you for sharing that with us because that is one of the things they're like, well, how do I know this person's gonna be great? And I'm like, well, we literally don't have any word for it or anything. That's great. Um that's really smart.

SPEAKER_05

I think the other thing that you know, for for you guys at least impressing upon clients, like you two have built your entire business on trust between each other, trust of partnering with a total stranger and building a life together and building a business. And so impressing upon them, like we would only bring on people that we trust. That is a pillar of our business, it's a value that we hold really high. And so it makes sense that you want to obviously bring on people in these different communities because yeah, when you're working across the country, like you have to have trust in the in the assistance that you're bringing on.

SPEAKER_02

So whenever we bring on anybody, we'll go through an entire, you know, word doc of this is what we expect from you line by line. And and it is a lot, but it's because we've built our reputation and our brand a specific way, the way that we do things, and so we kind of only want people that fit in line with that, and that is difficult to find once you find them, then hang on to them.

SPEAKER_05

That's no different than any of you know some big tech company. Like when I was yeah working in tech, it was like, okay, for this job interview, I have to be able to showcase that I can hit X, Y, and Z points. And if not, then I don't get the job. It that's you know what I mean. Like that's what the standards that we're holding many other industries to. Why would we not hold them to our painting businesses as well?

SPEAKER_02

So and I do think it is kind of tricky in the art industry because a lot of artists, you know, paint from the heart, and when they want to, and at the speed and pace, they feel like it. And it's like that's great and it has its place. But as a business and someone who is booking days, like they're not booking days because we're here, um, and we have to get in and we have to get out. And we have a very specific process that we follow, and so we do have to kind of hold our artists and ourselves to a higher standard in terms of how much coverage can you do per day, how quick can you get in and get out, how clean can you leave the space, um, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04

And so that's why I don't hate a flat rate for like paying assistance, because then they can kind of do it on their own time and they're not charging you hourly, and then suddenly you feel like you're encroaching. Because I feel like that's what happens when you grow. Like, there was a point my assistant never intended for this, but like I felt like I like was a part of her livelihood in a way, and it was just like this emotional financial relationship that I had never been in, or like didn't even realize I was going to be in starting a business. So there's so many little points, like making sure you add taxes on top of like what you're going to pay out people because you can't just like completely pay out of pocket because then you're getting charged for the payment that you're making, type of thing.

SPEAKER_05

Thank you for listening to the Brush and Banter Podcast, brought to you by Zebra. We're so grateful you're a part of the creative community. Gearing up for your next project? Head to enjoyZebra.com to grab your new favorite brushes, designed for comfort, precision, and serious creative flow. Be sure to follow Zebra Painting on Instagram for painting tips, artist features, and more. If you enjoyed our banter, subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts, and don't forget to leave a five star rating and review. Now, go make something beautiful. We'll be here when you need a little banter.

Contributor

Brie Hansen

Host
Contributor

Annie Bolding

Co-host
Contributor

Lauren Cooper

Co-host