Untangling “Meno-Divorce”: Choice, Change, & Capacity in Midlife Relationships

Join Dr. Pete & Jeanette Williams, Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and The Clinical Director at Deeper Change in New Jersey as they discuss the newly coined term, the "meno-divorce." Meno-divorce is the recent phenomenon amongst middle-aged women where divorce rates are increasing due to perimenopause & menopause. 

To learn more about Jeanette and her practice, Deeper Change, click on the link below: 

https://dcpgt.com

Transcript

Setting The Stage: “Meno Divorce”

SPEAKER_04 0:17

Hello and welcome back to On Air with Dr. Pete. I'm your host, Dr. Petey Connamo, and I hope you're all having a great week. Today we're going to talk about something very topical in the news. You know, there's been recent articles with this term coined meno divorce. It's a phenomenon amongst middle-aged women where the divorce rates are increasing due to perimenopause and menopause. I definitely wanted to explore the phenomenon with a trusted colleague and friend because you've got soon to be Dr. Jeanette Williams joining me today about this phenomenon. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist and the clinical director of Deeper Change, which is right here in New Jersey. And uh it's so great to have Jeanette here. We've known each other uh for, I mean, it feels like forever, uh, but she'll tell us how many years it's been. Uh right, Jeanette, how many years has this been? Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I think it's been since 2020, 2021.

SPEAKER_04 1:18

Is that when you started the doctoral program?

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21

See, but I feel like I knew you before that, even though we didn't.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

I know. It feels that way. It feels like I've known you for many more years.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

It does. It does. It's like as if um but how did we when you so we first met because you came into the organizational psychology doctoral program. That's why I can say soon to be Dr. Jeanette, because I am on her dissertation committee.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

And I am uh so excited to watch her grow. And she's been amazing in the classroom, but also as like a friend and colleague and practitioner, and just a real grounded human being. So when our producer was like, we need to talk about this menodivorce, I was like, I got the person. And that was you.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Yeah, yeah. It's it's fast. Thank you so much for having me. It's fascinating because um menopause and and paramenopause are very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

And really, you know, a lot of research has shown it's not gotten the attention that it really deserves.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

You know. Um, and we're at a really critical time in terms of women, right?

Women’s Changing Options And Freedom

SPEAKER_04 2:28

Well, what do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean, but what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Well, I mean, you know, things have shifted. You know, technology allows women to work in different places. Yeah you know, you could have a profession and you're you're you're in California and you're seeing people or you're you're servicing people all all around the world.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Um and COVID impacted that as well. So there's a degree of freedom that women have now that they've never had. That's number one if we were to bring it current. Um, but even you know, if we were to think back 50 years ago, women's choices were far less. And so women's opportunities, the things that they can do, where they can go, it has just broadened the the you know, and if someone's listening and not watching, um you're also a black woman.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

I am so yeah, and so you know, I think also changes in that regard as far as you know, sociocultural sort of challenges in this world that we're living in. Um and I guess I I'm hate to put you on the spot with this stat as you as a professor of yours, but like are there differences in white versus black women in some of these, you know, meno divorce stuff?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

You know, it's interesting because I have not seen the statistics on that. So we would really need to look at that more. However, I would say it's across the board because I'm seeing women of all nationalities uh taking a greater stance around their freedom. And what's happening with the um with menopause and paramenopause, women's tolerance levels are not as high as they used to be. That's just the reality. So, you know, there's a there are degrees of sensitivity and irritability, and this is there's a there's quite a few articles out about this, but you know, the the tolerance level that a woman may have during this period is uh is a little bit lower than what it what it would have been maybe when when they first entered their marriage. And then you have a lot of other, like, you know, what we call life cycle changes taking place at that time, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yes.

Intergenerational Patterns And Systems

SPEAKER_03 4:39

So you may have children going into high school, or you may have children going into college. So you're launching your children, you have to kind of re reassess what this marriage is going to look like in addition to going through menopausal symptoms, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

And this is uh this is a basket of just you know, frills, you know. You you're you're gonna read articles out right now about women who really found themselves, they feel freer and lighter than ever. And then you're gonna read about women who have um and hear about women who've just you know really gone down the rabbit hole. So it's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

It is interesting, and I did find uh an article from Women's Midlife Health. So this was published in 2022 that said that black women uh enter menopause about eight and a half months earlier when compared to white women. So just uh here we are as if we had as right. I mean, and I'm sure there's lots of different research around you know cortisol, stress, prejudice, all the experiences that kind of lead to maybe some of those physical health symptoms because we know stress has significant physical health issues. Um, but today we're gonna talk about marriage. So we're not gonna go into the biology of menopause, but as a licensed marriage and family therapist, which you were when we met, and uh I you trusted me to go into take this journey uh to get this doctorate, which I I'm very thankful that you trusted me in this, and I believed wholeheartedly in you. And of course, there's been lots of bumps in the road, uh, because there's always bumps in the road. Uh but certainly that there's been some bumpier, some some bigger potholes maybe that we uh anticipated. Um but but from your LMFT world, um you're let you practice holistic, humanistic therapy. Um so tell us how you got into this field.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Well, it's interesting because I transition like many of the clinicians that I supervise, so I am also an AAMFT approved supervisor, and I mentor clinicians into licensure, which I love doing. Um and so, but I came into the field older, um, which quite a few um people who come into the field come into the field older. So I went back to school, went to Seton Hall actually, and uh we had that in common. Yeah, yeah. And um applied for their for their MFT program. It's interesting because I didn't know why I fell into the field until after I started the program, right? Yes, because there's a joke, right? There's no coincidence that we fall into these niche areas. Right. And so obviously, you know, uh LMFT or licensed marriage and family therapy is really about systemic work and about intergenerational dynamics.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

And so while you're going through this work, going through your training, you're going to actually confront your own intergenerational issues, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Um, and so that's really in hindsight why I fell into the field, right? Um, was actually in some quest of healing my own intergenerational.

SPEAKER_04 7:56

Isn't that beautiful? You uh you missed this week's research team meeting where one of your research team brothers uh we started to like actually build that into the research question around athletes, black athletes, like looking at intergenerational trauma. Uh and so uh interesting. Yeah, so I I that's it's very relevant. I know. Well, you will, and that's obviously at the core of what you do, it's exactly what you're saying. And and it's the the trauma is so it's like almost uh watered down the way people use the word, but really how significantly it impacts us. And I love that you said that it was you know it just found you, and then you realize you had to do the work, you know. But you and I believe in sort of the energy that probably led you to that, yeah.

Overfunctioners, Underfunctioners, And Resentment

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Correct. So it's fascinating because you know, at this point I've worked with I you know, we can probably get into the thousand mark based on the supervision that I give.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

And there are some things that run through many couples, no matter the nationality. You know, the space. Oh, I mean, where do we start? I mean, you know, it's a joke, right? You know, I have this um philosophy, I'll tell a couple, you know, nothing new really shows up in the room. And so I'll say, give me a number one, give me a number four, give me a number eight. And someone finally asked me, what do you mean? I said, those are fast food choices, right? Because you're going to see the same thing repeating over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Um, one of the big things that shows up in the room between couples is what is classic what we call Boenian behavior, which is an overfunctioner and an underfunctioner. And it's interesting. I have one of my clinicians doing a workshop right now, and you know, one of the things that came out of this workshop she shared with me, I had heard it before, but it brought it back for me, that it's just as irresponsible to be an underfunctioner as it is to be an overfunctioner.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

That's exactly right, yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Right. So there's this balancing act that we find that we have to do in the room with couples, because when you have an overfunctioner, sometimes you either get comfortable with being the underfunctioner or you become resentful. One or the other.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Well, I always say that that was yin and yang. Like I th I you can't I don't can two overfunctioners be married successfully.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

You're right, is it is about yin and yang, but we're talking about overfunctioners to the point where it's unhealthy. I'm not talking about the yin and yang imbalance where we have like a 60-40, 50-50 dynamic. That's not what I'm referring to. Because if you look at the yin and yang symbol, it's it's equally balanced.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

Exactly. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Okay. So I'm talking about a gross imbalance.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Right? And it shows up in all Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

The overfunctioner then is like trying to fix the underfunctioner, or does the overfunctioner just go on and the underfunctioner just is there in the wake?

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Well, the overfunction, it could show up in any a myriad of ways. You know, we could have uh an overfunctioner who's hypervigilant, who's a wife, per se. Let's just say it's the woman that's you know on top of the husband. Did you do this? Did you do this? Did you do this? Seriously, this is really, yes. And then you want to find out where this overfunctioning is coming from. This is where the intergenerational stuff comes in, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

That's right. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Okay, so what's making you overfunction? Where did you learn this behavior?

SPEAKER_04 11:39

Yeah. Wait, so when did you yeah, so when did you begin this practice? So deeper change. When did you when did you begin that?

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Well, the actual practice of deeper change has been open since 2018.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Okay, but the actual practice of me doing marriage and family work, I probably started as soon as I started my program.

unknown 11:59

Right.

Therapy’s Role: Capacity, Not Magic

SPEAKER_03 11:59

I think around 2012, 2013, I started actually the application of this work.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

So you said you see diverse clients, but like what would be a tip of is it all couples?

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Or no, no, no, no. We see we work with a lot of individuals, we work with couples, we work with families, we work with children. Um, I would say about 50 because we're uh a marriage and family therapy group. Right. And because I have quite a few MFTs on staff, we get a lot of couples. Yeah. And you know how it works. It's like word of mouth.

SPEAKER_04 12:34

Well, and especially you you've seen the increase since COVID with couples.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

We saw an immediate increase in therapy, period, after COVID.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Because we saw couples, because we don't see couples like you all do, but like we noticed that there was a real increase in people in couples looking for support.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Right. I would say yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:55

There's been an increase overall, you know, if people thank goodness that there's people like you out there, you know, for that work because it is really challenging. Um, I always, when I teach this or training the way I was trained was that you know, couples counseling is not to fix the relationship necessarily. You know, it could also be about helping a couple realize that they should split up. Would you take that same position on that?

SPEAKER_03 13:17

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_04 13:18

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, couples. Don't you think people come to couples being like, fix me? You know, fix us.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Well, and I tell couples, I you know, we tell couples from the door there's no magic wand.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

There's no magic wand. And you know, you can have a couple come through and they're in crisis and they may think that you're going to fix their crisis in that one session. And because of the work that we do in terms of really the systemic searching and intergenerational searching, there's just no way that would ever happen.

unknown 13:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

You know? So it's important that you know what what is ha it's important that you kind of have some insight into what has taken place with the couple prior to therapy. Get at the core of the marriage.

SPEAKER_04 14:05

Prior to the marriage. Oh, right. Yeah. So get at the core of some of that stuff. So um I we've said intergenerational a lot. I wonder if we should define that for listeners.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Right. So intergenerational, I would say, is your family line. Like when you think of your family tree, right? So your mother, your aunties, your uncles, your cousins, your children, your grandparents, in terms of looking at what has occurred through those family lines, right? Right, exactly. What has taken place.

SPEAKER_04 14:35

And so some of the stuff could be transmitted or behaviorally kind of transmitted from one generation to the next, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:40

It could be transmitted, so there are a number of things, right? So we talk about loyalty, and this is all contextual language, loyalty to a behavior. Um, because I saw my mother clean phonetically. I'm going to do the same thing, right? Right. Exactly. So that's one thing, a behavioral thing. But then we can even think of epigenetics, right? And epigenetics is this dynamic of things being passed down through the DNA, right? Yes. Um, and some research has shown that things can be passed down through eight generations. That's wild. Right? So some behaviors you may not even understand, but from an epigenetic perspective, that may be why the behavior is showing up today. That's wild.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

That's so wild. Yeah. So what is menodivor? What what what what exactly is it?

Defining Intergenerational And Epigenetics

SPEAKER_03 15:32

So menodivor is this phenomenon. You know, we we come up with these new terms, right? But meno divorce is this phenomenon that's happening right now where couples are divorcing during the woman experiencing menopause. Interesting. And essentially the couple not being able to reconcile things during that time, where it ends up in divorce. And even to take it even further, because you know, when we're saying men are divorced, it's not because men are associated with a woman, not a man, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

And so it's like a woman making the decision based on her feelings at that particular time, her menopausal symptoms having taken over, uh, that the that the marriage no longer works for her. Yeah. And she's moving on.

SPEAKER_04 16:23

Yeah. I mean, so uh any life change can kind of lead to that. And so I guess women maybe have more clarity or courage, you know, some of that hormonal change to leave an unsatisfactory relationship, you know. I I mean, even just to say that, it's not listeners, it's not like all relationships are not perfect. There's going to be ups and downs, and it does take work. Because I've had people saying, well, if it's this much work, maybe it's not the right relationship. And that's not, in my opinion, not enough of a gauge or barometer. It's it's like they do take work. But um, have you seen meno divorce in your practice with the women that you work with?

SPEAKER_03 17:00

I've seen symptoms, you know. Usually what happens, I'll be honest with you, Dr. Pete, is that couples usually don't make it to that point. We have successfully worked couples through a divorce, but it's more rare than not. Um usually opt out of therapy, they'll just leave therapy. So you may not know, you don't have an end game to this. You don't have the data, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

What I will say to you is that symptoms occur, right? We will have couples come in and the woman is experiencing menopausal symptoms, and it's causing a rift between them.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Got it.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

And then there's like some psychoeduc that needs to take place at that point, right? And some understanding, some buzzwords for the couple to create between the two of them, if she's feeling a certain way, or if or if he or she is feeling a certain way in that particular unit, that they work these things out through conversation, right? Because communication is is everything.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

Now that's gonna sound so cliche, but it really it it could it's pretty simple.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

It sounds simple. It's harder to apply, right?

SPEAKER_04 18:18

It is hard to apply, yeah, yeah.

What “Meno Divorce” Really Means

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Right? So this takes patience and it does take work.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

You know, I had a uh a client recently say, Well, I thought you're not supposed to go to bed angry. And I was like, okay, there's some truth to that, but if you have OCD and you're a perfectionist, you have to go to bed with some things unresolved. Because that is true.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

So it could be okay to put your head on the pillow with a little bit of an argument going on.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

Exactly, exactly. It's not the ideal. You want to sleep well.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

You do want to sleep well.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

It's not the ideal.

SPEAKER_04 18:50

Yeah. So I want to talk about some interesting stats. So uh the National Center for Family and Marriage Research, they report that overall divorce rates are dropping. So they're decreasing. So we're seeing an increase maybe in couples coming to counseling, but there's a drop in divorce. However, among adults 50 and over, it's increasing. So in 1990, one in 10 divorces in the United States were adults 50 and over. Uh, just recently, that's grown to one in four. Uh so that might coincide with the time that most women are going through perimenopause and menopause. So, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

That's correct. It's interesting. I'm gonna go back to where I started earlier around trends and times that women of a certain age at this point in time have more options.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Oh, like meeting 2025, right? Like That's correct. Okay, yeah, yeah. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Yeah, they they have more options. It's like, okay, 50 years ago I had to stay because I didn't have my own money. I didn't have my own money.

SPEAKER_04 19:52

That's right. Well, I also didn't have like social media where I could find like an ex-boyfriend or girlfriend.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

Oh, all of that, right? That's terrible. But it's true. Social media has played a huge role in this on multiple levels. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Reconnecting with someone that you may have had a lost love for.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

The opportunity of that.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

You have your own income at this point. Your career options have expanded.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

You have friends that have moved away, they're like, oh come, I'm I'm in Greece now.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

It's just I'm serious.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

This is real stuff.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

I believe no, I know.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

This is what's happening. And so women are picking up and they're reinventing themselves.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Isn't that peaceful?

SPEAKER_03 20:40

And also remember that we are still in this period of it being okay to reinvent yourself.

SPEAKER_04 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

So this is the other thing.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

Yeah, I love that. And I I just what a thought that just came to mind is that we're speaking very heteronormatively, so we are speaking of and and sort of gender stereotypically.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

We are. We are.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

And so I want to just name that because then I also that that this episode is about these this group. You know, we're not doing an episode on LGBTQ couples or or anything like that nature, because that would probably be that that could be its own episode, and maybe that'll be a part of the thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

There's a whole narrative there as well.

SPEAKER_04 21:16

So we'll do that one later. All right, so hold up. So do you think women because they're going through so we're focused on women also because of menopause, so biological right? So that's something that we're gonna say. So do you think that they should make choices like this with this hormonal shift going on during perimenopause or menopause?

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Isn't that an interesting question?

unknown 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

So some of the things that, you know, we're fine, well, and these are even some of the suggestions that I put out, and you would be in in an alignment with this, is really slowing down before you make any rash decisions, right? So this is allowing yourself to really engage in meditation, really take yourself off of social media, take yourself down, right? Really ground yourself, don't make rash decisions. Because this stuff really has to be because it's life-changing, right? You can make a decision, oh, I'm gonna move to Spain, but have you really thought it out, right? So that's some of the you know the advice that we provide clients with and some of the information. It's like, how can you ground yourself? How can you be more mindful and and bring your system down and relax it? Because that's ultimately what helps see some of these couples through.

Reinvention, Social Media, And Autonomy

SPEAKER_04 22:36

Absolutely. Yeah, you have to just slow down one because I find that people think that the grass is greener on the other side. And so um I I remember I had uh a client once who was talking about dating, and she just paused and she looked at me and she said, What are you thinking? And I said, I'm just thankful I don't have to date right now. Like I was just that radically genuine because I was like, This is really hard. Like, you know, all the stuff with the you know, so I think to your point, like, and I love that you're bringing this up, it's really significant to the time that we're living in technology, um, independence and autonomy, which is all beautiful stuff. And this time, it and I think also the geographic makes it that way. So we practice in this New York metropolitan area where people are a lot of overachieving is the baseline in some ways, right? So um I've especially the athletes I work with, they're like, I want the best marriage ever. I'm like, how about just a healthy one?

SPEAKER_03 23:34

True that. True that, just a healthy one.

SPEAKER_04 23:39

That's it. I don't even know what best is, but just be healthy.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

I know. What does that even mean? You know, it's such a subjective statement, you know, and that's where I would go with them. What does best mean for you?

SPEAKER_04 23:50

Exactly. Yes. So to define that. So listeners, like if you're thinking about that, just define what even that means. So another hot topic that came out of this meno divorce is uh quote, we do not care club. Have you seen this?

SPEAKER_03 24:02

I haven't seen that one. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_04 24:04

I don't well, um, I think it's from an influencer, Melanie Sanders, uh, started this club that celebrates women who have stopped trying to please everyone. So yeah, does it so I I like so again, we're thinking it that is gender stereotypical. I I recognize that, but to your point, 50 years ago, I think women would stay. I think there's gonna be listeners who would say they should stay. Uh, but I also think this We Do Not Care club is saying you don't have to please everyone, do you?

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Right. And again, if we were to go back 50 years, and I don't want to, you know, I just I'm thinking about times, right? If 50, 75 years, whatever. This is this time frame in terms of people aging and shifting their their lifestyle. You know, I hate to say these things, but it's true. Women were encouraged to make sure they looked a certain way, they had to look a certain way to catch a husband, you know, they had to do certain things to keep a husband, all of these narratives. So I'm a s I'm assuming um that this we don't care club has something to do with that.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

That we're not caring anymore. We're we're doing us, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:15

Yeah. I uh it that what comes to mind when you said that is so my mom's mom actually her my my grandfather, my my maternal grandfather was an alcoholic. And um she kicked him out of the house uh in the 50s. So my mom was like three years old, she didn't which no one did that then.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Right. No one did that then, and so uh you grinned and bored.

Slow Decisions During Hormonal Shifts

SPEAKER_04 25:39

You dealt with it. I just grinned and bored, but she kicked her out, which my mom always resented her mom for that. But then I did the ancestry.com and I found two other sisters of my mom's that when he left, he went and found another lady and he had two other daughters. Um, and it was a really interesting thing because they were able to confirm you know, there's alcoholism, and then it gave my mom some peace to be like, okay, like my mom did something to protect me.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

That's great. It changed the narrative for you. There we go. There it is. This is the intergenerational tracking.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

There it is.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

So, and just to go back to it really briefly, yeah, there's this dynamic of knowing and understanding, right? This knowing and understanding that gets you to acceptance that then gets you to this point of forgiveness and empathy.

SPEAKER_04 26:28

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

It's really profound.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Yeah, yeah, because you're not holding on to the energy of it or the power that it kind of has over you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

That's correct.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

Yeah. How um so this for listener, as as you're soon to be Dr. Jeanette Williams, uh, how have you, you know, because you have all this life experience, you've have thousands of couples, like how do you think, honestly, like this doctoral training, has it had any kind of impact on the way that you think about systems or oh, majorly.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Majorly.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Because the one thing that I think has really come out of it for me is really assessing where someone is in the relationship and who they are.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_03 27:14

So it's, you know, if someone is um and it's also about capacity, right? This understanding of capacity with the person. Does the person have capacity to do what you're seeking him or her to do? Right? And just opening that dynamic up.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

I think what you're saying there is like sometimes people fall in love with the potential of somebody, you know, rather than what they actually are or the capacity of what they could be. That's what I'm hearing. Is that sort of what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 27:44

That is correct.

SPEAKER_04 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

That is correct. And or the capacity of of what that person can actually do or achieve. Like we all have our own capacity. Some people's capacity what that is because we're all uniquely different.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

Um, but that's one of the things that we'll find in the room is that a person may not have the capacity that the person expects them to have. And then how do you negotiate that within that system so things are harmonious?

unknown 28:22

Right?

SPEAKER_04 28:22

Harmony. Isn't that nice? Harmony. We always you and I always had harmony.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

We've always had harmony. We've always had harmony.

SPEAKER_04 28:31

We always. So, what would be some other like tips that you would share or last-minute advice for uh advice for women who may be going through this major life transition? What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 28:39

I would say definitely, you know, check in with your doctor. You want to check in to see if your hormone levels are way out of whack.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Uh there is treatment for that. Um you want to have open communication with your with your partner about how you're feeling. Um and you know, kind of stay in tune with your body if you're starting to feel symptoms of perimenopausal symptoms and do your research.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Do your research.

Redefining “Best” Marriage And Expectations

SPEAKER_04 29:12

It's really, really good advice. Uh I had one of my uh favorite general practitioners of PCP was uh Duke Educated, and she I was having an issue with my neck, and she said, you know, uh acupuncture. And she said, the only thing that cured my hot flashes and my menopause was acupuncture. Yeah, so I I that's actually where I was, and this was like 25 plus years ago. Um I was living in Jersey City at the time, and that was the when I was first introduced to acupuncture. And so um, I also would encourage I don't know if you refer to them at all, um, but I think for listeners, like this the change that occurs at that time is really drastic and significant, and there are a lot of things like like like Jeanette said, I mean, certainly know your hormones, and hormone replacement therapy has been very effective at that level. But also

SPEAKER_03 30:00

Very effective.

SPEAKER_04 30:01

Very, very effective, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

But also what you said is naturalistic uh remedies and homeopathic remedies, right? So a person can also treat this holistically as well.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

Absolutely. And and go see an LMFT. You are a wealth of information, soon to be Dr. Jeanette Williams. Uh so how can listeners find about uh uh find out about you and your practice deeper change?

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Yeah, so they can go online and find us. We're also on Instagram under uh deeper change. Um and then our website uh obviously we have a website, uh dcpgt.com. So that's the deeper change, personal growth therapy.com. Um and on that site you can find a list of our clinicians that are with the practice and the group. Um we have three locations. We're located in South Plainfield, New Jersey, West Orange, so as so right now we're in Middlesex, we're in Essex, and then we also have a location in the city in Union Square. Lovely. So we're out there and we're you know we're ready to help people if they need to.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Dcgpt.com. That will be in the show notes. Jeanette, it was such a pleasure to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

It was a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

You know, I can talk a lot a lot, we know that, but um I appreciate your time. Thank you again. And for everyone listening at home, thank you. Your support means the world to us, and that's why we continue doing everything that we do here on On Air with Dr. Pete. If you have any show ideas or please like, follow, and share, everything's at officialdrpete.com. And I will see you back here next week. Until then, spread a little kindness and stay well.