Personality Traits & Otroverts Explained with Dr.Shannon Sauer-Zavala

Join Dr. Pete and Shannon Sauer-Zaval as they discuss all things personality! Dr. Sauer-Zaval is a personality expert, a licensed clinical psychologist, an Associate Professor of Psychology at The University of Kentucky, the creator of BPD Compass & the Founder and Director of Compass Mental Health Training & Consulting. She has been featured on CBS Sunday Morning and has given expert TEDX discussions on the power of personality. 

Have you ever wondered, was I just born this way? Can I change? Am I stuck with one personality for my entire life? Dr. Sauer-Zaval's background and expertise are unmatched and you will for sure want to tune in for this one! 

Learn more about Dr. Sauer-Zaval here: 

https://personality-compass.com/media/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hello and welcome back to On Air with Dr. Pete. I'm your host, Dr. Petey Conamo, and today we are thinking about all things personality. And so you may have heard about personality, uh, but this is a new type of personality called the Otravert. And uh we wanted to get the expert here. So we got Dr. Shannon Saurzavala. And so Dr. Shannon is a clinical licensed psychologist and associate professor of psychology at the University of Kentucky, and the creator of BPD Compass, which we're going to spell that out for you in a minute, and the founder of Compass Mental Health Training and Consulting. So she is an expert in all of these types of things. And so we are so happy to have you here. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Dr. P.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Happy to, yeah, it's awesome. And Kentucky. So this is I we have a lot to talk about. I told you that. So um tell us a bit about your background. Like how did you even get into this?

Evidence-Based Personality Over Popular Tests

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So um I am I am a, you know, as a clinical psychologist, like you said, and I my focus for a long time has been doing treatment outcome research. So my goal really is to make treatment, evidence-based treatment, treatment that's proven in clinical trials that works, accessible to more people, not just wealthy people. And so that's kind of like my main overarching vibe. Um, and the way that I got interested in personality is because kind of behind the scenes in personality research land, there's all this data that suggests that you can really understand most common mental health conditions as um vulnerabilities in these personality dimensions, right? So people that are high in what we call neuroticism or the tendency to experience negative emotions, they are more likely to experience anxiety, depression, eating disorders. Um, you know, people that are low in conscientiousness are are more prone to um have difficulties with substance use or to have ADHD. And for me, as a person that wants to make evidence-based treatment more simple so that therapists in practice are more likely to use it, I got interested in developing treatments to target personality traits instead of like playing whack-a-mole with the different symptoms. Also, because most people that we work with have more than one condition. So it's just more efficient to target the vulnerability risk factors rather than to target each symptom or disorder separately.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

I love that. And I think uh so if there's anyone listening that is, you know, like us, like actual psychologists or in this field, uh, you know, personality assessment, for example, gets um a lot of negative uh, you know, media, if you will. Um I was just trying to make that G rated so I didn't have to like click any curses on here. Um, but you know, right? Like, don't you like so like I was trained in um like the TAT and and uh you know Roarshock, which are we even using those anymore?

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Um not really, no. So um so I think it's kind of worth talking a little bit about personality assessment. Yes. Um and so, you know, most people that are listening are probably familiar with like Myers Briggs or Enneagram or Disc, right? These are things that they've probably had to take in their HR department, right? And um those are not the tests that we use in our research studies where we're trying to understand what personality is, how it changes over time naturally, how it changes in response to treatment. These are like um, you know, like corporations that are selling personality tests to other corporations. And in fact, they're not, when they have been studied independently, they um they don't do what they're supposed to do. They're not reliable. So different times that you take them, you could get a different, a different like type. And um, what I think is even more concerning because um, you know, workplaces make hiring decisions, make placement decisions based on these tests, they don't actually predict career success. They're about as good at at predicting your career success as your zodiac sign.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

So um, so definitely take um take Myers Briggs, any gram with a grain of salt. Um, the measures that we use in our research studies, this is where I kind of think like clinical psychology or clinical psychology research needs a PR person because you know, our the most the model of personality with by far the most um research support that's been studied for over a hundred years is called the big five. Yes. Um, and you know, it's it's five traits, right? Psychologists aren't really that creative.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Um we're not creative and we're not good at PR.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Yeah, not really. Um, or at least not on the research side, right?

The Big Five, Clearly Explained

SPEAKER_01 5:04

We're not no you're I mean, look, that is that that's truth, you know. It's so it's because what annoys me about this, sorry, I have to go here for a second. What annoys me is like we talk about say like tenure, and you and I can maybe talk about that for a little bit, but do we you know dissemination is a piece of that, but like how many can really go on to like you know, CNN and talk well about their research? How are you actually disseminating? Because if you don't have media training or understand how to simple like you're like just like you're about to do, because of the big five, we're gonna break that down for people to understand that what you're taking at work is unlikely anything that's actually like you said, your zodiac sign is more predictive. So HR companies hear that, hear that. But go ahead. So the big five.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think like, you know, just to kind of go off of what you just said, I think dissemination is, I mean, it's just so important. And, you know, it's great that like that you have this platform where you're, you know, where we are kind of talking about the science. Um, I mean, for that very reason, me, like, I don't know, like a nerdy academic in my 40s, like I have an Instagram, I literally make reels about like and get on my soapbox about personality testing because you know, I have clients come into my office and say, I'm an ENF, an ENFJ. So I just couldn't possibly like be assertive in this particular relationship. It's like, well, first of all, that test is not predictive of results, and also it's so self-limiting.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yes. Amen. All right. So if so big five, so big five is at the core of your research, would you say?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah, for sure. So so big five, it's actually, I mean, if you're a personality nerd like me, it's really interesting um how we sort of settled on these traits. So basically, you know, in the 1930s, so nearly a hundred years ago, um, psychologists combed through the dictionary and pulled out any words that um that the how would the IRB like that today? I mean, that'd probably be fine, right? Because it's not a human subject.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yes, except that you have to have some theory to like back up your your research. Like if you're just wanting to taste, you know, test test like purple lollipops, you can't do that. The IRB is gonna say, well, you can't give them the purple because there's no foundation to why you're gonna study that. But I hear you. So dictionary comes out, they pull these five words out.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Well, they pull all thousands of words, any word that describes human nature, and then they try to group them in smaller and smaller categories, and they keep reducing and they keep reducing until they get to these five overarching traits that um that can kind of explain all the differences across people and can't be reduced anymore. And so the traits are neuroticism, which is the tendency to experience negative emotions frequently and intensely, um, agreeableness, which is um how will we get along with other people, how trusting we are, um, how genuine we are, extroversion, which most people think it has everything to do with sociability, which it does to a degree, but it's actually broader than that. It's about like energy and excitement and being social life of the party is kind of just part of that. Um, conscientiousness, which is the degree to which you're reliable, achievement striving, organized. Um, there's there's tons of data that suggests that people that are higher in conscientiousness live longer, they make more money, um, you know, because they're probably following through with their preventive medical care. Um, and then finally openness, which is just how open you are to new ideas and experiences and aesthetics.

Can Personality Change Intentionally

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Love that. So uh listeners also um I love that you could tell that you're an expert in this because you went backwards. I always go Ocean. Um for the acronym. So for us less uh smart people like myself, um we do that. But uh ocean. So yeah, so those are the the five there. So you know, you've really simplified that's great, but um, in your care uh characteristic way of thinking, feeling, and behaving, do you believe that we have the ability to change our personality? Uh so you know, like what would you say about that when people hear that through the course of lifetime? How does personality change?

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Yeah, great question. Um, yeah, it does. Um, and it does quite a bit. So um there's a big period of personality change from like 18 to 30. And I think that that's a really important time because that's when people are leaving home. So they're they're getting to choose their environments, and your environment can really and how how you respond to it and how it responds to you can really drive some of that personality change. But then, I mean, it definitely changes into adulthood. And and the ways I can make that claim is, you know, we've tracked thousand tens of thousands of people in longitudinal studies for decades. Um, and so there's really, really robust data that suggests that personality changes um just across the lifespan. Now, importantly, there's a lot of variability. So some people change a ton and some people are more stable.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Do we know why? No.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

No. Um, but um, what what I've been working on for the past, you know, 10 years or so is is like volitional personality change or intentional personality change. And so rather than just kind of like going with the flow of life, you can um you can actually nudge your personality in a direction that will be more in line with your goals and values um by taking particular intentional actions. And so we can see like in terms of like effect sizes, which is like how much change, um, you know, 20 years worth of naturalistic personality change in about 20 weeks.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Wow. For real?

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah, for real.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

That is uh that's pretty like wow. I mean, I, you know, because I think people are so they're so stuck on their personality where they're like, this is who I am. It's making me think we did a an episode on divorce and how around perimenopause divorce is increasing. So overall, divorce is decreasing. Uh, but then in this one specific age group, especially for women, you know, they are like uh initiating this divorce at a certain point. I'm thinking that also people are feeling like it's because that person changed, you know, thinking about like relationships and how uh so how would you like clinically work on that, you know, if someone's personality is shifting, but their partner's like, I don't like this new personality.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Yeah, yeah. Um, well, if I was working with with the person who was shifting, I would try to get a sense of like their goals and values related to that, you know, and is this shift in a healthy direction for them? Yeah or or not, right? So so I think that can that can be a little bit tough to think about, you know, is it adaptive for them to go back to the way that they were or not? Um wait so a lot of times like naturalistic personality change usually is in a healthier direction.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

I would hope so. Well, oh that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Because obviously there's gonna be people who go in all directions, but you say in general it's more in a healthy direction.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

People tend to become more emotionally stable, they tend to be more um, you know, more assertive, they tend to be more uh more conscientious over time. And like contrary to what you would think, um, as people age, they tend to become more open.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yeah. Actually, I would believe well, I guess it's because what we do for a living, but because you also don't care as much, too, right? You know, oh that's like, you know, so for adolescents that might be eliciting, like it will get better, you know, uh as you become more conscientious and open. Wait, uh going back to the big five really quick, because I don't think I I ended that, which is uh do you want to share which assessment you use that you feel most comfortable with in your research?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Okay.

Values-Led Trait Nudging In Practice

SPEAKER_02 12:31

So there are um there are a bunch of like five five factor model or big five tests that cost money that you can take online. I have a free version on my website. Um it's called Personality Compass Assessment. And uh basically, like it's free, and it's because I am you know in a fight with the commercial personality testing industry. Love it. I really want people to be able to get disrupted science-based, uh, yeah, to the like 300 people that come to my website and let them disrupt.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

No, we're gonna get it out there. It is in the show notes. That is so good. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's I love actually, I love that. So that's like a real social justice component to your work, too. I'm I'm I'm gonna call it that. So sure, yeah, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

That's a compliment.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Well, and it's true because this stuff you you also opened that way. You said you wanted things to be less expensive, and the rich will get all the treatment that you want, you know. And if it is personality-based, uh they we need the right people out there giving them the modalities at work, you know. Yeah, so um, I love that for you. And I actually, so what's coming to mind for me is um I have a paper coming out about uh we took about 5,000 uh NFL Combine athletes. So from the 80s, similar to the 30s, when they were going through the dictionary. Uh in the 80s, a colleague of mine just went through um the international database of personality tests, like IAPA or what or I what is you you probably know what I'm talking about, but I forget the actual acronym. But there's like this website that has all of the personality items on it. Uh, and so he went through and just developed his own test. And so we did the psychometrics on it, we had a biostap, you know, all that type of stuff to see if it was actually reliable and valid and all that type. So it's it's curious to see this because I'm all of that long answer to say in sports and performance, we are trying to predict right who could be a good draft and and and what's a successful draft. You know, HR is doing it because of whatever they're doing it for, and I don't want to talk stuff about that, but you know, um uh sports organizations are spending millions and millions of dollars on a draft, and so they want to see like, and so what we've been wrestling around is like what is success? You know, is it a second contract? Is it a Super Bowl ring? Like, what actually defines success? And so, to your point, even with these personality assessments, like what what's the outcome? You know, what are you looking to understand about this? Is that what so like how do you help people even interpret some of the uh results?

Personal Story: From Shy To Structured

SPEAKER_02 14:57

I mean, that's a really great question. And I think like, I mean, I'm happy to put HR on blast. Um just to say that I mean, this is just for listeners, right? You are, you know, if your employer is giving you a personality test, there it's not because they want you to self-actualize, right? For the bottom line, obviously. So otherwise, why would they do it? Um, and so so I think that that that's a really nice segue into like how do how do we use this information as individuals when you get when you get personality test results. And so, you know, the prevailing wisdom, right, when you take like, you know, take one of these 16 personalities tests, you get a type, and you're supposed to choose your career based on your type, you create in this role, or you know, this is the partner that you should have based on this type. And um and so, you know, for the personality test that's on my website, I really tried to like create a score report that of course is like based in science and accurate, but also um has kind of a growth mindset vibe, right? So here are sort of the pros and cons of being at this level. I don't actually think that there's like an optimal level of any of these traits. It's it it is the the level of the trait that's right for what's important to you.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

And so like I don't think that being an extrovert is like better than being an introvert, and like all the introverts should try to like nudge their personality.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

But if you're a person who is more introverted, not super assertive, but you've got great ideas and you wanna, you know, you do want to move into a leader position liter leadership position at work, like that's a place where you might want to nudge that trait a little bit. And so, so to your question of how do I work with people to figure out what kind of changes they want to make, we actually start with values um and really get a sense of like what's important to you, like how do you want to show up in these different domains of your life? And then we use the personality test to kind of determine if there are any any of your traits or tendencies get in the way of living your life the way that you would want to. Because, you know, the strategies that we use to to change personality, they're like actually like super simple, like ridiculously simple, but they're not easy because changing your behavior and your thinking is not easy. So you have to have really strong motivation, and you know, doing it to do it isn't it.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

You sound uh very third wavy, uh CBTE. So I love that. So we could definitely uh shout out, shout out to Hayes. Uh so your TEDx, I listened to, you know, uh heard that, and you know, really looking at um not allowing your personality to dictate who you become. And I love that and that's what we're saying here, and I love that. Uh so tell us about how that personally worked for you.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Yeah, yeah. So um, so contrary to what many of my students or people that know me now would believe, I used to be really shy and really um kind of a disorganized mess. And um I didn't set out to change my personality. You know, this is something that I started researching, you know, in the last 10 years. But when I look back on my my life, I can see some of the principles that I've, you know, kind of capitalized on in my research happening for me. And so um I was the type of person who, like in terms of my like lack of conscientiousness, the type of person that would clean by stuffing things under the bed. I um, I mean, this shocks people. Um I used to skip class so much in high school that I actually failed like algebra two and I had to retake it the following year. Um, and that really continued when I went to college. Um, however, I took this intro to psychology class just because I think my advisor was like, take this class and I was like, cool, sure. Um and even though it was at eight o'clock in the morning three times a week, and like based on how I was really conducting myself in college, I shouldn't have gone to it. I went, I went to every course meeting.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

I think interesting.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

It was interesting to me. Um, and so I was rewarded with that, right, by um doing really well on the first test. And that's kind of like a rite of passage test, and a lot of people did really poorly. So the TA was like, Oh, Shannon, you should consider majoring in psychology. And I was like, sure, cool, I'll do it. Um, so because I really didn't have any any direction, but I I think like that positive reinforcement for doing something different, like it was a different approach than I had been using in my other classes, yeah. Um, was enough. It was just enough to keep me, at least in my psychology lane, um, working hard, right? And so um, you know, I took more psychology classes and I did well. And so it it also shaped how I thought about myself. Um, like I'm good at psychology.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

And so, so really, like this goes back to a CBT perspective, right? Because I mean, the the scientific definition of personality is your characteristic way of thinking and behaving. And what we target in cognitive behavioral therapy are your characteristic ways of thinking and behaving. And so changing, changing a habit, right, like studying, going to class in this this case, right? Like if that gets reinforced by the environment, then you're gonna keep doing it, right? And that's gonna have an effect on how you think about yourself. But if you go into things thinking, oh, I'm the type of person who needs the adrenaline of the last minute to get started, like you better believe you're gonna wait till the night before. So you can kind of see this relationship between how I think about myself and what I do.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yes. Where where was that? Like, where did you do all your studies?

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Yeah, yeah. So um, I'm from Connecticut originally. I went to college in Pennsylvania at at Gettysburg College. Yeah. Um, and then I did my um PhD work at University of Kentucky, where I am now, my predoctoral internship at Duke, which is in fact actually a real conflict of interest for being a UK basketball fan.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

It totally is.

Beyond Boxes: Otroverts And Continuums

SPEAKER_02 20:50

It's a huge conflict of interest. Um did my postdoc at Boston University, and then when my mentor from graduate school retired, I took her tenure line and I'm we moved back to Kentucky.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Isn't that so cool? Yeah, that is really, really neat. Um, so yeah, all that can so yeah, uh you have the sports thing. Uh uh I I guess there would be some conscientiousness around your sports uh loyalties or whatnot. Yes. Uh so you know reducing barriers and intentionally cultivating traits that bring people closer to their values and goals. That's what we're saying. That's why uh you've said values a lot today, so I love the uh you know act sort of references, and we talk a lot about that on here. And um so tell about reef. So this is the bad this is how you work with people to reframe their personality types, then and your example really highlights that that really well because I guess what I'm hearing is we are limited by it. And I think about that with like say BPD. Um I can think of people who have come in the office. Um, you know, I've worked uh I used to work with BPD because of DBT, uh you know, and so but then you realize whatever, yeah, exactly. But and then you realize that you know, there's all different types of people have different specialties. And shout out to our colleague Shereen Risbe and just like you know, really studying sort of the work. Yeah, that's my girl. Um, you know, but like I I've had people that come in and they're like, I'm BPD, and and by first session, I'm like, but you're so attached to that identity that actually are you? Because you're not really meeting the criteria today, and you have the skills for it, so you're not anymore. So let's change the narrative. And that's where we do like some of the schema work. And um, so let's get into this otrovert then, because that's how we started. So go ahead, go tell us about this.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

So um I think the o I heard I read a news article about the outrovert, and I was like, this is silly because it's nothing new really, like the word is new, but um you know, personality exists on a continuum. And so, you know, there are people who are at the very like low end of extroversion, so like pretty intense introverts, and then there are people who are like off the charts and extroversion, suck all the air out of the room, like interrupt people, right? You know, and so we've got these two extremes. And most people are somewhere in the middle, depending on the situation, they're more extroverted and they just kind of teeter back and forth. That's why when people take the Myers Briggs, they get different results every time because most people are in the middle. So depending on the situation or the day, they're gonna come out as an E or an I. And that's essentially the outrovert lives in the middle of that continuum, but yeah, everything to do with with human nature, you know, how empathetic you are, how fast you build on muscle mass, like continuum. So the ultravert is like a new word for most people.

One Protocol, Many Disorders

SPEAKER_01 23:40

You heard it here. Otrovert is the new word for most people. Well, what what we're describing is the normal curve and how people fall right into those two-standard DV, you know, right into that. Uh, and then also just thinking about middle path. Let's get another act shot out, you know, in third wave. Like, yeah, always trying to find this blending of things to have anything that polarized, like the world in which we live, it creates a lot of dysfunction.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Yeah, right. And and we see this in so many places in psychology. There's this, I mean, we're talking about it with personality, get a type, a box, right? There's such a such an urge to categorize things. We see that with the different disorders. Oh, do you have G A D or do you have social anxiety, or do you have BPD, or do you have depression? Right. And actually, like those barriers aren't, I mean, they're not, they're very permeable. And so people have symptoms of this and symptoms of that. And that's because categories aren't, it's superimposing a category system on something that isn't categorical.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Another theme of today, you know, even for these personality traits, you don't you so what I'm hearing, and for what listeners is key is like you don't have to fit into a box, you know. And I think just trying to like break out of boxes, understand yourself, the context, you know, the context in which you behave. I love that you mentioned that. And I actually the metaphor I use a lot with athletes is like, I'll be like, So do you dance in the middle of the circle or you want to stay on the outside? You know, and not everyone needs to dance in the middle because there's not enough room for everybody then. Yeah, you know, and in sports, unfortunately, some coaches really push athletes at as thinking as if everyone needs to be in the middle, you know, as if that quote unquote extrovert, you know. But what we're saying is most of us are otroverts, yeah, uh, and we could turn it on when we need to. That's what I'm hearing you say, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm actually thinking about, you know, with your example with athletes. So my husband, um, he's an architect, but he before he got licensed, he worked in like um event design, and he was just working for like a corporation. And um, at his performance review, they were like, You really need to stand out more, you have to talk more and meet, you gotta be the big idea person. Yeah, and um, so like everyone got their performance reviews in like a particular week, and then they're all in the meeting, and everyone's talking over each other because they gave everybody the same feedback.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

So that yeah, that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Really effective.

unknown 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Um wait, I know you're also on CBS student Sunday morning. They're saying that your research uh at the University of Kentucky uh is really a game changer and really to approach, you know, a way to approach mental health. And I think, you know, so tell us more about that because you know the thing is obviously people say to me, like, what's this mental health thing? Like, why is it such a thing now? And it's like, yeah, I mean, 10, 15, I think you and I are probably the same age. And so we were trained around the same time, and especially like in the sports world, like you know, you weren't always around and accepted, like you were sort of down the hallway, you know, and now like you're in the locker room. So we we've created space to say, like, this is normal, physical health is mental health. But I love that you're thinking about really the vulnerabilities, you know, getting at the core of this, and that's what I'm hearing. So is that what you would is that how you would describe that what you talked about on that show?

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yeah, for sure. Um, well, on CBS Sunday morning, mostly it was talking about like how how personality can change, because I was sort of backing up um Olga Kazan, who's an Atlantic writer, she wrote this like super boss memoir about how she changed her personality by you basically using CBT strategies. Um, it's called Me But Better, and it's great, and everyone should buy it. She's hysterical.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Um but we a lot of the game changer for mental health content got cut from the actual episode. But essentially the idea is it's kind of like what I started with at the beginning, at the beginning of our conversation, which is that um, you know, historically we've thought about mental health conditions as categories. And essentially what that means is that there's a different treatment for every disorder in the book, being DSM. And um, that creates a huge burden for therapists. Um, because in order to provide treatment the way it was developed and tested in clinical trials, you have to be up to speed on the nuanced differences between these different protocols when really there's not that much difference in what is maintaining social anxiety versus panic versus generalized anxiety, right? And so rather than focus on what's different about the disorders and giving them, you know, putting them in a box and giving the respective treatment, my work has really focused on what is shared. And it's so much more efficient to target these shared vulnerabilities because then you can see simultaneous symptom change across a range of different disorders, right? So it's really freeing for clinicians because, you know, most people are seeing folks with anxiety and depression, eating disorders, BPD, right? And um, you know, essentially that means that you could have one protocol and use it with most of your folks and you know, see benefit, right? And it makes good sense for comorbidity because most patients have more than one condition. It's like the rule, not the exception. And so a treatment that's targeting what is shared just makes a lot more sense.

Antagonism, Narcissism, And Behavior Change

SPEAKER_01 28:51

One thing I just keep thinking about, and I I actually we have to wrap this up, we're already almost done, which is so annoying because I have so many more questions. But because I'm thinking about narcissistic personality disorder, that is the one you know disorder that I think is really important to get to a specialist.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

And I I and I'm finding a hard way of like wrapping my head around uh that sort of uh compass treatment for that disorder specifically.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah, yeah. And so um, I mean, I can talk a little bit about like so I mean it depends if it's like a grandiose narcissist or a that's the one I'm talking about. It's like that, you know, there's kind of a difference there.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

I'm talking about the grandiose one.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

The grandiose, yeah. So so those folks are low on agreeableness, right? So they ping on that antagonism dimension, and that's actually something that we target in in Compass because um it is um it's a vulnerability for BPD also for borderline personality disorder. It just manifests a little bit differently. Like BPD, it's like mistrust. And um, you know, so we we actually um worked with um a colleague of mine, Josh Miller, at the University of Georgia, who's our antagonist specialist. And um we we added like we tried to add into the treatment examples and we really talk about like like the long and short term consequences of your choices and how are they serving you right and so you know we added examples of you know for the BPD examples are like you um you want a relationship so you you know change yourself for the group and in the short term that makes you um you know it's relief and you're fast friends and in the long term it actually screws you because you um you oh if they really knew the real me they wouldn't like me so you get even more and so some of the examples that we put in to get at more of that like narcissism like just pure antagonism like um the need to correct people for minor minor infractions or grammar right in the short term like what's your motivation we try to be really like non-judgmental about it even though we're judging well we coming up with these these examples we try to think like what are the things that annoy us even what not necessarily in therapy but like and so um it's like the need to be right yeah um and and usually if we're coming at that from a non-judgmental stance it's like you just want people to see that you're valuable right that you know things it's it's not coming from a dark place where you're like idiots yeah you're you're just trying to be trying to be seen right but in the long term does that take you closer to what you want like how is that actually working for you like this strategy so we really come at it like behaviorally um the other example that we have in there is um is like a one-upping oh like somebody's talking about their vacation oh well I well about that um and does you know why you do that in the short term what you're getting out of it but like how that is taking you farther from your values in the long term.

Resources, Test Access, And Closing

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Such good work such good work that you're doing. Thank you. So I mean again I think I we could keep going but how can listeners learn more about you?

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Yeah yeah so probably the best way is to go to my website it is wwwpersonality if you're interested in taking the personality test it is literally there's like a big blinking thing at the top of the at the top of the page so you'll see that um and then you know if you're interested in volitional personality change and want to work together you'll see options for that um on there as well and then I'm on all the social medias.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

I love it. So we'll have uh all those links will be in the show notes. So uh Dr. Shannon thank you so much for being here uh this was really a great conversation and can't wait to hear more about this research and for those listening at home thank you so much for tuning in you're the reason that we're here and trying to spread the word so please like follow and share everything's at officialdrpeat.com we'll be back here next week so until then spread a little kindness stay well