Two Ears, One Mouth, And Zero Cancel Culture

If you’re interested in thoughtful, high-level conversations about psychology and communication, I highly recommend tuning in to this discussion with Dr. Pete and Dr. Chloe Carmichael.

Dr. Chloe is a clinical psychologist, speaker, and bestselling author known for her warm yet direct approach to navigating high-stakes conversations. She brings practical tools, grounded research, and real-world insight to complex interpersonal dynamics—especially when emotions and stakes are high.

She’s also a strong advocate for freedom of speech and independent thinking, encouraging people to engage thoughtfully rather than reactively. Whether you’re looking to improve difficult conversations, strengthen your confidence, or think more critically about challenging topics, this conversation offers meaningful takeaways.

I encourage you to give it a listen—you’ll likely walk away with both practical strategies and fresh perspective.

Learn more about Dr. Chloe Carmichael here: 

https://www.drchloe.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Hello, welcome back to On Air with Dr. Pete. I'm your host, Dr. Pete Economimo, and I'm so glad you're here today, as always. And today I'm joined by another psychologist, Dr. Chloe Carmichael. She's a psychologist, a speaker, a best-selling author, and she's known for her warm yet direct approach, which I can relate with because that's often how a lot of my mentees uh will will uh describe my demeanor. Uh Dr. Chloe is a strong advocate for freedom of speech and independent thinking. And I'm really looking forward to getting into this conversation and you know, especially in the context of 2026. So thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Thanks, Dr. Pete. It's great to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

So uh tell us like tell us about yourself. Uh you and I were chatting a little bit, so we we did share some similar educational training in the New York area, but tell us a little about how you got to into psychology.

From Yoga To Clinical Psychology

Freedom Of Speech And Mental Health

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Sure. So um a couple of decades ago, I can't believe how time flies, but um, I was a yoga teacher. Nice. And so I was teaching individual yoga lessons in New York City uh to mostly really uh stressed out, busy professional New Yorkers and teaching meditations to complement the yoga practices. And that was actually what got me really interested in a deeper level of understanding the body-mind connection and stress management and goal attainment, all these issues that my yoga students were working with. Um, and so that's what prompted me to go ahead and become a clinical psychologist. And so for the first uh large part of my career, I was mostly just working with anxiety, stress management, regular psychologist type stuff. Um, and then I was telling you around the time of COVID, um it was like the rise in cancel culture was coming up, and everybody felt like they were talking on eggshells, so to speak. And I started getting really interested in the mental health benefits of being authentic and freedom of expression of for yourself as well as making sure other people around you could also be themselves.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Right. Beautiful. And so um that so that's this blend that you've now do. So the clinical work uh with also then helping people navigate communication hurdles.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Yeah, I've I've really I'm focusing a lot on that now, and it's come up in some surprising places. So, for example, I was super surprised that my alma mater, Columbia University, actually invited me to talk about this topic. And I was surprised because, you know, they've been in the news um as having some issues uh of not being super hospitable to free speech. And the good news is I think they want to change that. So I think they invited me as a way to be like, hey, we're open, we're open.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

How'd that go?

Columbia Talk And Power Of Language

SPEAKER_03 3:02

It actually went very well. Um, you know, so the the it's an intellectual group. So I was able to explain about the cognitive, emotional, and social support benefits that language offers us. You know, when I was a yoga teacher, I was always telling people that we don't realize what breathing is. We don't even think about it, but it's doing so many things for us. Same thing is true for speech, for speaking and listening. I mean, it's it helps us to sharpen our cognition, it helps us to regulate our emotions, it you know, springboards cooperation and relationships, it does all these things. And so people were interested in that, and they also liked the practical aspect because there's also a lot of techniques about how to speak up as well as how to listen carefully, even if other people are saying things that you think are provocative.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Like Judge Judy says, God gave you two ears and one mouth.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Sorry to sorry to quote her, but that's uh that's part of my self-care.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

She said it best.

Listening Well Beats Talking Fast

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah. Uh we do need to do a better job of listening, and it's true. I mean, I think that's what I work with high performers, predominantly executives, C-suite executives, athletes, and so they're wanting to fix because they're so good at fixing everything. And when it comes to like marriage, for example, you can't be that way in your partnership. And so being able to listen to your partner is something that's really challenging for a lot of my clients. But so you've talked about, so you talked, you know, initially you were doing anxiety depression kind of quote unquote usual psychologist stuff. So um share with us why you believe that this freedom of thought and speech are essential to mental health.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

Yeah. So I mean, when we speak, we're what we're doing is we're taking the um kind of a messy interior life and we're putting it into an organized system of language. When we actually talk, our cortisol levels drop. And I know you know this, obviously, Dr. Pete, but you know, that's part of the whole thing that the process of psychotherapy hinges upon, right? Is getting people to come into the office and feel safe enough to um take what's going on inside and put it into words. And that experience in and of itself is very soothing for people.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

And it also helps them to evaluate what they're actually thinking and say, wait a minute, does this really make sense? Right. Because we're we're applying if-then statements and all this incredible stuff that's embedded within language, it sharpens our thinking process. And then it also causes emotional regulation. So when we name our emotions, the amygdala starts to, you know, down regulate. And when we talk with another person who's really listening, and there's been some interesting studies about when people pretend to listen versus when they actually listen, our brain can tell the difference. And you know, we're we're tribal animals. And so we we need to be able to have that, and we need to be able to feel like we can have a difference of opinion without experiencing what psychologists call annihilation anxiety, right? So, like a true safe space, I'm trying to help people understand, is one where there can be uh even serious differences of opinions.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yes.

Self-Censorship vs Healthy Restraint

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Um, and we don't have to, you know, get freaked out and think our existence is threatened because of that.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Well, I love that you said that about just you know, active listening versus listening, and that research is fascinating. And I just thought of Homer Simpson, there was an episode, uh, there's like 30 seasons, but he'd be listening and have all these like bubbles coming up of like all the other things he was thinking about, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Yeah. So so self-centered censorship is harmful. Is that's that's really what you that's like the foundation of what you're teaching people.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yes, though I do want to distinguish between self-censorship, which I do believe is harmful, yeah, versus what I call healthy self-restraint. So the idea here is not to just be like, no filter, Dr. Chloe says this is good. You know, uh we can we can have healthy self-restraint, we can be considerate of other people. But self-censorship is when you are kind of misrepresenting your actual beliefs and values to other people. Maybe you're laughing at jokes that you don't think are funny or you know, smiling and nodding because you feel like if people knew what you really thought about, you know, immigration or you know, any of these like kind of hot topics today, you feel like people just, you know, you'd get uninvited to the barbecue. And that's a really anxiety-provoking way to live your life.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah.

Anxiety, Groupthink, And Safety

SPEAKER_03 7:40

And it also really stunts, I think, your cognitive and emotional development. If we can't even really talk through our ideas, then we're actually prone to get into all kinds of irrational ideas. Like that's where some of the worst, darkest things happen is when people bottle stuff up inside.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

You know, I one thought that just came to mind is that without, you know, without us discussing hot topic issues necessarily directly, it feels to me like one of the things that we're seeing today is like, you know, scapegoating, uh, you know, um uh oh my God, I just lost, you know, it this is like these hot, like these, these words that everyone uh gaslighting, right? So like we've studied that forever, and everyone sort of says it, but then you you see it at a high level, and it's so interesting your perspective on fear, and there's this fear that I could get you started today by saying about cancel culture. So we have these people in power that are kind of modeling gaslighting. I don't know if you would agree with that or not, but I think that they're you because everyone is just stuck on their narrative and they're not listening to what someone's saying and they're just repeating their narrative.

Heart Rate, Conflict, And Cognition

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Yeah, I think that's true. And one of the interesting facts that I came across as I was researching for my new book, Can I Say That? Why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly, is that um when our heart rate goes above a hundred beats per minute, we are not cognitively grasping what the other person is saying. That's why we have to like practice fire drills to leave a building, because when you know we get you know emotionally charged, we can't even remember how to exit a building. And so, you know, as you said, you know, we we can have situations where people in power, you know, it makes you nervous because this person's in power, whether it's you know, your college professor or your boss or you know, political leaders or whoever, um, if there's power dynamics at play, or if we just have, you know, as you said, a scapegoat idea or a stereotype idea about, well, people who believe X are like like A, B, C and the other thing. Yeah, um, we can get really charged really quickly, and then we're not even understanding what they're saying. Totally. And then the same thing is happening in reverse. As soon as they realize that we have a difference of opinion, totally. It's like all bets are off.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah. You know, it puts it into all or nothing thinking. So it's like really dichotomous, you know, and and I've said that forever. It's like it can't just be, you know, black or white, you know. You uh, you know, act, acceptance, commitment therapy, mindfulness. If you're doing yoga, you're learning middle path, and you have to recognize that that uh that. So why do you believe and I want to get to your book, but because I think you've got great tips in there. So but why do you believe open dialogue is so important?

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Well, again, because without open dialogue, we're actually prone to to groupthink. We're we're prone to like like the weirdest ideas. So I explain in the book like ideas that we can all agree are bad, like members of the KKK or you know, jihadi recruiters.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Right.

Open Dialogue Prevents Extremes

SPEAKER_03 10:42

The way that those people exit their harmful ideologies is not by somebody saying, shut up, your viewpoint can't be spoken here. Right. It's actually, you know, through dialogue, and not that I'm saying we have to dialogue with anyone and everyone, but it's just an example of saying when people are not allowed to talk things through, that's ironically when they fall into the worst ideas. So that's one good reason for open dialogue. Another good one is that we all know that social support is really important and that we're in an epidemic of loneliness. So if we can't keep it real with people because we're so afraid of being canceled or they can't keep it real with us, we we're not gonna have high quality social support. So, like a true safe space, a truly good relationship is one where you can disagree. Like um um Justice Scalia and Justice Ginsburg, they were on opposite sides of the political aisle. They voted against each other on like every case. Yeah, but they had lunch every week and vacationed together. So, like, I mean, that's a beautiful example of open dialogue and how we can differ, but we can also keep it human together.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, that's a it's it's a it's a really good point. And it makes me think in our job as a clinical psychologist, before I want to get into some of your corporate work, but you know, you're training psychologists uh in my faculty role, and sometimes people don't want to work with certain people, you know, other groups. And in particular, like pedophiles is something we always work, we discuss in you know, ethics class, you know. So what if you really disagree with a pedophile and yet you have someone come to your office that's a pedophile? You know, our our job, I wonder if some of that stuff brought this to your front of mind to write this book. Can I say that why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly?

SPEAKER_03 12:31

That's a really interesting one. Yeah, because you know, everybody needs to have be able to talk things through. And, you know, um, if if we deny pedophiles the opportunity to like get help, you know, what do we expect to happen? Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yeah, yeah.

Scalia–Ginsburg As A Model

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Um, but no, in my case, I actually got interested in this book because um I had a real problem masking my then three-year-old son during COVID. And I felt like you weren't allowed to talk about a lot of stuff regarding COVID back in 2020.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

And so I felt like I needed to talk about it anyway, though, because to me it was like, it was like it felt almost like child abuse.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

And so I I started talking about it and I started having a lot of really interesting conversations in the media and in social media. And I realized that it was sharpening my own cognitive process and that I was emotionally evening out. Cause when I first started talking about it, I was so pent up that I came across with an edge that I didn't even mean to have. But the more I talked about it, the better my thinking got and the calmer I got. And I was like, well, how could I not have realized till now as a clinical psychologist that obviously, you know, freedom of expression would be good for us.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

And then yet free speech is so controversial. So that's what prompted me to put the topics together.

Training Clinicians And Tough Cases

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Well, I'm glad that you did. So uh you worked out with corporate clients to shape constructive conversations around employee well-being and productivity. So I'd love to hear about that work. Cause I always uh one of the programs I was running was an organizational psychology doctoral program. So a lot of people that are, you know, working with large organizations that are very dysfunctional.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

You know, and so yeah, how do you how do you use that?

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah, I mean, which has been amazing too. Um I was I was pleasantly surprised at like, you know, big law firms in various places that have actually invited me to speak about this. I was like, when when I published this book, I was like, okay, well, these corporate clients are probably never gonna call me again, but that's okay. Yeah. Um, but to my great uh pleasant surprise, they've actually been interested in this topic. Um because I I think that they they want to be able to have a space where people can disagree. And, you know, it's like people say sometimes we'll just don't talk about politics, and that's fair to a certain point. We don't need to be bringing up all these controversial debates in the workplace.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

But on the other hand, a lot of times, like suppose you're working at a law firm and there's policy changes coming down and people need to talk about them, or suppose you're working in education and there's you know, DOE issues that are happening. You know, people are going to have opinions that's actually part of being a high-functioning person, as you know, is to have an interest and an understanding of current events in the world around you.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Right.

COVID, Masks, And Finding A Voice

SPEAKER_03 15:18

And so corporations want high-functioning people. So the idea is, you know, to learn how to have a diversity of opinions and perspectives, but um, you know, not have it turn into World War III.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I love, yeah. Do you um, you know, one of the things you'll see in media is like opinions are not facts. Uh and so do you see that that's that's part of what you're saying, like when people are not listening because they're just righteous around their opinion, or like how would you help clients or corporations differentiate between those two?

Corporate Conversations That Work

SPEAKER_03 15:46

I uh yeah, I I think that's a really important one is that opinions are not facts. And, you know, to encourage people to say, ask three questions when somebody says something that you know you find provocative, you know, maybe just try asking, you know, three questions in a row to make sure that you're really understanding, like, well, what are the facts behind this? And then, you know, if it seems like the person is really just speaking from a place of opinion, you know, you can ask yourself, well, does this matter? Is this like a personal subject that's like coming into the workplace that we don't even really need to go into? Maybe I should take this up with the person over cocktails later if I want, or maybe I don't want. Or is this actually important? Is this person making an opinion-based assumption that's affecting our plan of work here? And I do need to bring in a different perspective, and then like what's a good way to do that? You know, maybe bring an ally with you, or you know, bring a few facts of your own and ask the person, you know, for their opinion about that perspective. Um, but again, I I just I think workplaces are waking up to the idea that they need to be able to just truly have a diversity of opinions, that even the cognitive work product will be better if we can have people, you know, that see issues differently. That's actually sometimes how we come to the best outcome.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

It's a it is the best outcome. I mean, you know, groupthink is dangerous. And I don't know if organized, you know, we're we're just want to sweep things under the rug, which as a clinical psychologist, we know that that doesn't work. And I just remember how confused people were that Scalia and Ginsburg used to vacation together. Like some of those articles, and I I don't know if you know, which I there was like so much that highlighted that. Uh certainly I remember after she passed, um, but it was like everyone was so confused, you know. Or I think we even had like a a um a media uh for the White House who was married, you know, opposite in their marriage, sort of had opposite beliefs. And so how how could how does that work? And it it does, it works. You can it's yin and yang.

Opinions, Facts, And Better Questions

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Totally. And you know, you mentioned the word groupthink, yeah, and that's really interesting because Irving Yannis, who's the psychologist that invented the term groupthink, he had eight major ingredients that create the groupthink dynamic. And one of them is self-censorship. So when people do self-censorship, it creates what he called the illusion of unanimity. So, you know, you're in that meeting and you think that you're the only person, you know, that sees a certain issue differently. Um, and so self-censorship is actually one of the major issues that can lead to groupthink, which is actually the enemy of a successful corporation. They don't want to be stuck in groupthink. Totally. That's why I think they're waking up to this.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I love that. So you have a lot of practical tools in your books, um, but uh for communicating with confidence and emotional intelligence. I love that. Uh so tell us how you put that into practice in your own life.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Yeah, sure. Um, so I mean, actually, one of the simple ones I borrowed from couples therapy, which I'm sure you're probably aware of, is called reflective listening. Yeah. And it really solves that hundred beats per minute issue. So, you know, if person A says, you know, so suppose you do that thing where you ask three questions in a row, then you just simply reflect it back to the person. So you're like, oh, okay. So you see it this way because of reasons A, B, and C that you just explained to me. That's that's like the main uh framework. Then that that's what you're saying. And they say, yep, that's right, or they clarify. And then you say, Okay, well, do you want to hear my opinion about it? Which is a nice way to do it because it it causes the other person to acknowledge, like, yes, I do, or to simply say, No, I don't, right? Which forces them to own the fact that they're not open to dialogue.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Right.

Breaking Groupthink At Work

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Um, and then you can say your piece and say, Okay, I'll tell you, but I I want you to repeat it back to me just to make sure, kind of the way I did for you, just to make sure we're not talking past each other.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

And that works in the workplace. Yeah. I've done that with my husband. Like, I mean, like it it really helps everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah. He's not a psychologist.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

No, he's in finance. Yes, it's better.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

I I always I I always I uh I I revel with our colleagues that are married to psychologists too. I just gotta be I could never save. Save, yeah. Uh so you focus a lot on leadership, resilience, navigating sensitive topics. Uh, so you know, with respect. So anything, any advice you'd give to people that might be thinking about having a difficult conversation with someone in the workplace?

Tools: Reflective Listening In Action

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yeah, I mean, a couple of ideas. You know, first of all, maybe consider role-playing the conversation first, because if you're thinking about it, you know, that means to me maybe you're nervous about it. And sometimes things can come out in fits and starts when we've been holding them in for a while. So I would encourage you to consider role-playing the conversation and then maybe even switching roles so that you get a chance to hear it said, you know, the other way. Um, one other quick tip is to once you, you know, are planning to have the conversation, go ahead and also plan a debrief date afterwards. So that way if the conversation went really well, you can just enjoy, celebrate that victory. Or if the conversation didn't go so well, like you have some built-in support to kind of strategize and think about your next steps. And one other like other last tip is um, if it's legal, depending on every workplace situation, but uh potentially upload your employee manual into Chat GPT and say, like, hey, I'm thinking about expressing this opinion about such and such. You know, what are the employee guidelines when it comes to, you know, expressing yourself or differences of opinions or communication guidelines or whatever that I should be aware of?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

So nuanced. I love that. Chat GPT. Using AI for you, you know, that's uh that's really good advice. Thanks, Dr. Chloe.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Yeah, well, thanks again for having me. It's been fun to chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah. Uh so how can listeners find you? Because I know uh this, I'm certain that there's a lot of people that are listening to this and they're gonna think, I can't wait to have her here, or I don't want to have her here, and I want to learn why I might want to have her here. You know, and especially with this book, uh, can I say that why free free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly?

Prepping Hard Talks And Debriefs

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Yeah, sure. So people can go to um drchloe.com, which is drclo e.com. I know that's kind of a mouthful. So just for this time, I've pointed the domain freespeechtoday.com to my regular website. So if people just go to freespeechtoday.com, then they can go to my website and from there they can see all my books, which I'm excited to share, are also now available in audiobooks since a lot of people prefer to just listen. There's information about my speaking and pretty much my social media, everything else.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I love it. Freespeechtoday.com. All of those links will be in the show notes. And Dr. Chloe, thank you so much for being here. Very, very insightful. And I know it's going to help a lot of people who are listening.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Thanks, Dr. Pete. It was great to be with you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

You too. And for those listening at home, thank you for tuning in. And as always, like, follow, and share. Everything's at officialdrpete.com. And I'll see you back here next week. Until then, spread a little kindness and stay well.