Insight and Connection
Insight and Connection is hosted by Patty and Kam Dirilten. Patty and Kam are psychotherapists and have been married for 25 years. They have two children. The goal of the podcast is to bring common everyday issues to a deeper place of understanding through humor, research, experience and discussion.
Insight and Connection
Why the Hate?
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Welcome to Insight and Connection, where my husband Cam and I, who are both therapists, discuss everyday issues on a much deeper level to help others make more sense of the world we live in, live more happily in it, and feel more confident in developing solutions for themselves, their families, and their communities. So glad you're here. Welcome back to our podcast, Insight and Connection. I'm Patty.
SPEAKER_00I'm Cam.
SPEAKER_04And today we are here to talk to you about, I'm just gonna say it, just hate. There's a whole lot of hate going on in the world right now, Cam.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. I I hate talking current events and being, you know, in the mix, as I'm sure a lot of you do. We're not gonna look at it from any one specific thing going on, but this broad view that just hate this, hate that, black and white thinking, you know, you're either with me or you're against me. It's just it's exhausting.
SPEAKER_04It is exhausting. And and it and as I witness this, whether it be in my work, whether it be, you know, I'm I'm watching the news or I'm hearing about a current event, it makes me so sad, actually, to see humans treating humans in the way that we're witnessing. And I can just see the pain. I could see like the future, the future clients that are gonna come in and talk about the actions that they they had witnessed or received by others, and just can see it going into memory networks, and I could see the trauma happening, right? It's just like that concept of trauma begets trauma, begets trauma, is what goes through my head with this concept of how much hate is happening in the whole entire world, whether you're talking about international events or you're talking about local communities or you're talking about just our country. It's there's just so much hate happening.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think, Patty, I think it even goes even smaller than that. Like local community, yes, but I don't know about you, but I'm witnessing it within family systems, like the estrangement that is happening between, you know, brothers or aunts and uncles or whatever it is, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_04Estrangement, can we talk about that for a minute? That there is a trend in, I believe it's our country, where I'm not sure if it's even delineated, if our country or other country, but I know that I'm witnessing it, and Psychology Today did an article about estrangement, which I haven't read yet, but the fact that the It's on the cover. It's on the cover, right? And I'm hearing it in my sessions, I'm sure you are too, Cam.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, about how people are cutting other people out. And sometimes, some, you know, sometimes I think it's indicated if you have an abusive parent or there's some real egregious reason why you need to be able to keep yourself safe in that relationship. I'm not talking about those situations.
SPEAKER_00No, those we've been dealing with all along, right? But it's now, oh, I have to cut this person off. I can't even believe so-and-so agreed with such and such a politician. Yeah. Like what? How does somebody's understanding or agreement with some news event earn them the silent treatment in perpetuity in their house?
SPEAKER_04They're cutting, family members are severing ties with each other. Mothers, daughters, you know, sisters, brothers, because of a difference in opinion. When, how did this happen? I I just in disbelief. I I oftentimes, whenever this subject comes up, I land on disbelief. And this time, I really, for the purpose of this podcast, I really sat with it and Cam did too about how is this happening and what is going on in human nature for us to go to this place where we're cutting family members out, we're cutting friendships off because of a difference in opinion. So let's break this down. This is our purpose today is to sort of break this down and bring some more understanding into what is actually happening in current events here. And so I guess the first thing that comes to my head is just looking at this as in a wider lens, looking at how hating one another keeps our nervous systems in a fight-flight response. So if you simply even take, you know, a post or you we watch something, a little video on your on your what do you what do you Real. Right. Yeah, thank you. Reels, and you're getting all fired up as you're seeing this reel. About wherever you stand, you're watching something. This is the the input to your system as you're watching this reel, and you're getting aggravated. And that aggravation, right, in anger is a sympathetic response.
SPEAKER_00And it's how dare someone say such a thing or post such a thing.
SPEAKER_04Now I'm gonna react. And I'm going to then do just I'm gonna I'm gonna do the very thing that I I am currently judging. Exactly, which is just such, it's such hypocrisy. I am going to be so pissed off at this person's opinion, their thoughts about whatever it might be. And I'm gonna do unto you what you did to me. I mean, what what is it, the saying, two wrongs don't make a right? I mean, let's just get back down to just basics. Just this, the childhood easy, you know, thought when when we're teaching a child, hey, don't punch Johnny in the face because Johnny punched you, right? Two wrongs don't make a right. That doesn't get anywhere, right? And so we're trying to teach our children not to react. But meanwhile, we are just desecrating each other online.
SPEAKER_00But I think part of that, though, also comes from the medium in which we're doing it, right? So once upon a time, there was like power of the pen, power of the sword. Right? Like if you're standing in front of a guy who also has a sword and there's a disagreement, like you can calm yourself down because there is a great chance that one or both of you is going to get very hurt with the swords. So, like maybe we can de-escalate this, connect on it, whatever. But that's the sword.
SPEAKER_04Right? This is this is the exactly my point.
SPEAKER_00But now it's but but the thing is now you type whatever you want, it goes out to however many millions of people. There is no real consequence, it's just the spewing of this, it's this constant vent or spewing of venom at others, right? Which causes them to feel a certain way and causes them to spew it right back. Yes. But there's no real connection there. There's no real way to like, hey, here's my point of view, and here's why. That's your point of view, and that's why. That's great. I but if we were to look at the two points of views, so a lot of the underlying causes would probably intersect. But nobody can ever get to that because it's just easy to get on that keyboard or type on your phone whatever you feel like saying in the moment.
SPEAKER_04Because in order for us to come together and discuss something, we need to be in ventral veil. And if we look back at that, I love that statement, right? The pen, the sword, and now we have the the keyboard. Okay. That oftentimes, if if you if you have two men back in the day with swords, okay. If if we're drawing our swords, we're in sympathetic. We're fighting right, okay? And now we've lost that ability to to negotiate, and those two people are gonna fight. Okay, if we're drawing swords, we're gonna fight. If we're drawing pens, we're gonna fight. If we're drawing our keyboards, we're gonna fight. So I think But maybe, right?
SPEAKER_00You can both draw your swords, and in that split moment before one person swings it at the other, you still have a chance to de-escalate.
SPEAKER_04Very, very much agree with you. Right.
SPEAKER_00And you may not, but you do because you have access to that person.
SPEAKER_04If you look at the way that the, you know, all the history of all the wars and all, right? It's human nature. It's human nature, right? All the you did to me and you hurt my family. So now I'm gonna come after you and I'm gonna hurt you, okay?
SPEAKER_00And we're gonna continue to do it until it becomes basically not palatable to continue it anymore. Yes, right. One side finally has to give in.
SPEAKER_04It's human nature, and and that's what we're talking about. And what I think needs to happen is that we have this thing called our prefrontal cortex, right? We are the only species with with that part of our brain, the size that it is. We have the ability to evolve beyond this human nature, this reactivity that is an old behavior, right? It is a that is a back of the brain response. That fight, fight, fight, flight response is a back of the brain response when you're threatened. And that's what we're seeing. So I think as I sat and thought with thought about this hate that we're seeing. And instead of judging it, right, instead of doing what I'm biologically primed to do, which is to see it as a threat, I think I practiced what I preached right there and sat with it, stayed in my ventral vagal, part of my my nervous system.
SPEAKER_00Or at least brought yourself back to it before you did anything.
SPEAKER_04That's right. And then I really thought about what's happening here. And I think that that response is biological in nature, and we have the ability in our species to override that response by bringing ourselves down, calming our nervous systems down, and thinking about how we want to act when we read that post, when we see that reel. And that is the way that we change this, is we settle down.
SPEAKER_00So you mean that that reel that I read actually doesn't say anything about me?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, and you're gonna- I thought it was just to me.
SPEAKER_04That's how it feels, but feelings are feelings, not backed.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_04We need to be able to step out of that moment and see it for what it is, and not engage in that pull to want to get back at somebody because who we do not know, have no access to, and wouldn't even know if they were sitting next to us, right?
SPEAKER_00That's the absurdity of this. All this pent-up hatred and fueled anger is all at somebody we have no access to. It's just a concept. There is nobody to stand in front of with the sword.
SPEAKER_04And what's the yes, and what's the impact? Our stress, chronic stress.
SPEAKER_00And and being in a constant sympathetic state, constant state of fight or flight.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00Right? Which means that we're never active, we're always amped up. When we get amped up, that very thing you were talking about with our prefrontal cortex, our rational stop system in our brain, doesn't go completely offline, but it is compromised because our lower part of our brain, physiologically speaking, takes over, right? That's the survival mode. And when we're constantly stressed out, our body is responding to a threat, which in this case is only perceived. It's not an actual threat, it's something you're reading on your phone. If you just didn't read it or didn't activate yourself over it, it wouldn't harm you.
SPEAKER_04Right. It's not an actual threat.
SPEAKER_00It's not an actual threat. It I mean, perceived, I suppose.
SPEAKER_04Yes, right?
SPEAKER_00But then our prefrontal cortex goes offline or becomes moves towards going offline. Where now we are only acting in this primordial survival mode all the time. I really just gonna go get a cup of coffee. I don't need to read this.
SPEAKER_04And then the consequences of that. Look, look at the consequences of that.
SPEAKER_00It's one set, somebody makes a post, then the next line is a whole bunch of haters on the post. Then the next line is the original poster hating on the responses, just on and on it goes. Going nowhere except for activating ourselves and causing distress in all other facets of our lives.
SPEAKER_04What if, let me just give you just a roll of doozy here. What if we didn't engage like that? What if we didn't get caught up in all that and just repeating over and over the very same thing we're upset someone's doing to us?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'll take it even one step further. What if we read that and was just like, oh, I'm sorry that that person's having a difficult time. I wish their life was better. There's not much I can do about it, but I hope for them, I hope for them that things improve. My life's okay, right?
SPEAKER_04Yes, and but okay, so I love that. If that's our end game, can't that would be the end game, right? If that's our end game, I think we have to first be able to even recognize the pattern that we're engaging with first. And that's the function of this podcast, is to be able to help, I guess, in a way to form the sort of observer self, to be able to have a part of you see, wow, I'm what am I doing to myself every day? I'm purposefully getting myself, I'm choosing to get myself fired up and put myself in sympathetic and chronically be stressed all day. And then what are the consequences for me? Right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So what if we looked at that from like a choice theory perspective?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I love, I love that. Like, so choice theory, choice theory was something that really was life-changing for me back in my 20s. I think I was in my 20s, and I was doing an internship, and part of the internship was to go to a week-long training on something called choice theory and reality therapy. And this change, it literally was it the seeds to change my perspective on myself in the world from that point on. It helped reduce my my own anxiety issues. It it was amazing. And that's what we'd like to kind of propose to you, kind of share with you today as a as a solution. You know, often we're like, oh my gosh, I this problem exists. And we talk about the problem, but but oftentimes we don't follow that up with any real solution. And that's what we're hoping Cam and I can sort of do today is not just get us to model that in a way to say we don't want to get caught up in the problem and and complain about the problem at hand.
SPEAKER_00Now, with the this is not an advice column. Right. So we're not telling you what you should do. We're just saying like have some awareness.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00And decide for yourself, maybe based on choice theory.
SPEAKER_04Because I had to take myself through that very process just to be able to get here to stop reacting because we we do it too.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I get caught up in that reaction all the time. I'll read something or someone will say something, or you know, and and I then get into that fight-flight response myself and to practice what you preach, right? Like, so so it's being able to have taken that for a spin.
SPEAKER_00Can you share with everybody that example from that training you had on your choice theory?
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, yeah. So we all walked in. So yes, thank you for getting me back to that story, Cam. So I'm in my 20s and I walk in to this training. There's probably about 30 or 40 of us there. And the very first thing the trainer says or asks the group of us is, do you have to stop at a red light? And about half of us were of the mind that, yes, you have to stop at a red light. And the other half were like, no, you don't have to stop at a red light. In fact, you don't have to do anything. And that caused, you know, led to a conversation and then this entry point into the introduction to choice theory. And I guess I'll just have you all think for a minute about where you land. You know, what what what group do you belong to? Yes, you have to stop at a at a red light, or no, you don't. Cam, I think I asked you that question. Do you remember what you said?
SPEAKER_00I said, no, I don't have to. I choose to because I don't want to get T-boned. Yeah. That was my answer.
SPEAKER_04Yes, we so so I had, so I I used to work on the west side of Chicago, and we had police officers come in and kind of coach us on just how to stay safe. We were doing home visits and just how to be aware, not hyper-aware, but how do you just be aware for your own safety? And we were talking, they they actually advised us, you know, if if you feel like you're in a dangerous situation and you're there were a lot of carjackings at that time. And if you feel like, you know, you're you're stopped and you're noticing that there looks like you're vulnerable. You're vulnerable, run run the red light, was what the police officer said to us. And I just thought that was really interesting, right? Because I'm kind of a rule follower by nature. And so I was like, this police officer wants me to run the red light. And so it brings this idea back to that concept of I don't have to do anything. These rules and regulations and laws and um everything that that we have in our first world country, right? We don't have to do anything. We choose to do it to to avoid consequences.
SPEAKER_00I I choose is it to avoid consequences or is it to fulfill a need?
SPEAKER_04Well, I love that. I I think when I think when I'm talking about the red light, I'm choosing it to avoid getting into an accident, to avoid getting a ticket, right? But maybe I'm choosing to do it because I feel danger and I want to keep myself safe, right?
SPEAKER_00So that's a need.
SPEAKER_04That's a need. Yeah. So so being able to I look at it that way, and in choice theory, that theory states that there are five basic needs that all of us humans are trying to meet in all of the behavior that we choose.
SPEAKER_00Or yeah, choose or not choose.
SPEAKER_04Right, right, right, right. Well, not acting is a choice.
SPEAKER_00Correct.
SPEAKER_04So those five needs are survival, freedom, fun, power, and love and belonging. Those are the five basic needs that all humans have. All of us have those needs, and we are driven and motivated to meet those needs in everything we do. One very simple example I give my clients is you're driving in the car and you start to, your your stomach starts to rumble. And so you go to the drive-thru at Wendy's and get a burger and a frosty, and on with your day, you go. That seems so fluid, but if we break that down and we do slow motion on that action, we have a need. It's hunger. That's a need for survival, right? We have to eat. We have to. So, well, you don't have to eat, I guess. I'm gonna I'm gonna check myself right there. You don't have to eat, but if you don't eat, you'll die. So we are hardwired to survive. So if our tummies are rumbling, we're gonna stop and we're gonna eat because that's built in. And it's it's something that's just so innate, so instinctual, that we don't even think about it. But then we stop, and if we slow motion that action, that choice, we our stomachs rumble, we start to think, what am I in the mood for? Gosh, I haven't had Wendy's for a while. That sounds delicious. So then you drive your car through the drive-through and you order, and then you sit and you eat. It's a whole chain of action that's being driven by a survival for that need of survival. So, Cam, can you talk a little bit about those? Can you describe those other four needs?
SPEAKER_00Sure. So, obviously, love and belonging. That one kind of makes sense. You want to be connected to friends and family and feel like you're a part of something bigger than yourself. Fun, that's an obvious one. Like, I want to do things that are good for me, you know, fun, fun to do. Power. Power is not necessarily what you think. It's it's not only like to have, you know, will over somebody else, but it could just mean that I matter, right? Or that I'm a little bit accepted that I can provide for myself and others. Um which one did I skip?
SPEAKER_04I think competency too. Like you've got to be.
SPEAKER_00No, freedom.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I was just talking about the power one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then of course freedom, right? Like I don't want to be controlled by everybody around me. I want to have a say in my own well-being, right? And the thing is, all of those fall on into what they call like a quality world, right? So that's like that mental representation or image that you'd have about what your perfect world is, right? All the people, the places, the things, the values, all of those things that provide you with what for you is your best life.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, very simply, very simply, the way that I sort of teach this in my sessions is I have people draw their quality world on my Board. Quality world meaning if we could wave a magic wand, what would be the components in your life? What would your life look like if you know you were to be happy? What would bring you happiness? Right. And it's so interesting that us humans are so predictable sometimes because it's almost always the same. And after someone draws their quality world, right? Like, you know, mine would be, you know, I'd have, you know, my my dogs and my family and my my career, and you know, this the same things that most other people are gonna put in that quality world, okay? And then we walk it back and we say, okay, here's these things in your quality world. What needs of yours from those five?
SPEAKER_00From those, from those five things survival, love and belonging, power or con yeah, power, freedom, and fun. Do those things meet? Yes. So it is basically the summary of taking your quality world items, values, people, places, things, and assigning them to a need.
SPEAKER_04Understanding, understanding why you chose those things to go into your quality world. What needs are you meeting if those things are abundant in your world? Right. So, like, you know, my dogs, they they bring me absolute fun, joy, the, you know, immediate, immediate state chance.
SPEAKER_00Ask her that at two in the morning when they're barking at the cat in the front yard.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, yeah. I might get into my sympathetic there for a minute. But then, you know, it goes away because I just, they're just, they bring me just immediate fun. And love and belonging. They're they're just absolutely loyal and accepting. There's no judgment. It's just so pure, right? All three of them so pure. And so that's just a simple example of the need that I have that that meets for me.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00That's how you identify that, that's how you put value on things that are in your quality world, is that they've meet some of those needs.
SPEAKER_04They meet all of them.
SPEAKER_00Or all of them.
SPEAKER_04Well, according, according to this theory, right? If we draw our quality world out, it's because those things are meeting our needs, right? According to this theory.
SPEAKER_00And some of them may even fit more than one of the needs. So they're higher on the list.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Right. That's right. So that's, I guess, if we we put together, right, this understanding of that these needs drive our behaviors. If we hook it into this topic that we're discussing, which is why and understanding, why are we hating on each other? Why are we doing that? I think the the answer lies in this concept of understanding that we have these needs. So let's break that down.
SPEAKER_00Well, but and I think it goes even one step further. It goes from quality world to perceived world. Right? So, perceived world is then, as I live my life, the reality that some of those things are not being met.
SPEAKER_03Right?
SPEAKER_00The disconnect between my perceived world and my quality world is what gets us ramped up. But is it really true? Does that person on that post really have anything to do with my quality world? It's imaginary anyway. It's in my head. How is this person by making this post actually taking anything from me? They're not.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00They're not even, if I don't allow them to, reading this post does not even change my perceived world. Maybe in that one moment, because it makes me angry that somebody else is disagreeing.
SPEAKER_04Well, right there, right there. I think you're nailing it. Okay. So there's anger. You read that reel or post and you get angry. Okay. Now we have to be curious about what's making you angry about that. Okay. So if we break that down, now we know anger is a secondary emotion. And so let's just go into the to emotion-focused stuff. Okay. So anger is a secondary emotion. We identify that we have to pause before so we can do this and not just act. We have to pause and go, I'm really angry. I'm in my sympathetic. It's a secondary emotion. Let me calm myself down. Let me get myself back into ventral veil. And let me think about what am I angry about? What is the emotion that's underneath that anger?
SPEAKER_00What is the anger protecting?
SPEAKER_04And oftentimes what I hear is a sense of powerlessness. Okay. Or worthlessness. Powerlessness or worthlessness is what sits under anger. Okay? And so basic need. Base going but to integrating choice theory.
SPEAKER_00That's the need.
SPEAKER_04The need then is power. Right? This post is triggering. Now I'm gonna bring my trauma hat in. Okay. This post is triggering an emotion, powerlessness or worthlessness. And then the negative cognition that often goes with that is I don't matter, or my opinion doesn't matter. And I can't be heard, maybe. Okay. So though there could be two possible, maybe I mean more, but oftentimes I can't, I'm not being heard, and I don't matter. Just by reading that reel from a stranger, okay?
SPEAKER_00It can also then stem to I feel lesser than you. I'm inadequate in some way, which then starts chopping away at my perceived world. I'm not what I think I am. Then of course, that contradicts my quality world. And here we go. Yes. Now we're looping. So what are we gonna do in defense? I'm gonna type the nastiest thing I can imagine to that person that said whatever they said.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_00And then what just happened to me is gonna happen to the reader of my response.
SPEAKER_04That's right. That's exactly. And trauma begets trauma, begets trauma.
SPEAKER_00If we could put the human back into this, we would probably find that those two individuals, quality world, like you said, no matter who does that exercise in your room, male, female, rich, poor, whatever it is, they do follow a pattern of human behavior and human wants and human needs based on choices. So they all name these same things. Probably the two very people that are going at each other online probably have a lot of those same things in there on their whiteboard, if you were to sit with them.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yes, I I would actually say that it is a human, it's human nature to react that way. We've been seeing that throughout time, right? It's what leads to all of the horrific events that have happened in our history as as humans. And if we don't stop it, if we don't stop it, if we do not evolve this this part of it, if we don't stop and be able to identify and think about how we're acting and choose to and choose to act rather than react, then it's gonna be to our own demise of our species. The thing that the the thing I think about all the time is that we're gonna be our own end if we don't evolve this piece. Because right now you can feel it, you can see it, it's happening. You know, it's just it's gonna lead to violence. It has led to violence in our history.
SPEAKER_00Well, but by dehumanizing some, by dehumanizing a group of people that may have a different opinion than you, you take away one of those basic needs for us as a as individuals and as a group, right? That we in fact belong to the same species. And so if I dehumanize you because of your perspective, I no longer have to value you as something that's like me. So it makes it a lot easier to attack, shut down, whatever. Let's hopefully not go farther than that.
SPEAKER_04Oh, but it does go farther than that.
SPEAKER_00It does, right? All because I don't recognize you as similar at all. Yeah. But the distance between these perspectives is very small. It's just we are highlighting anger responses. We're literally highlighting everybody's defense to an anger response because it challenges our quality world and our perceived world.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00But really, like every all of us have these same things happening to us, but because we're stripping away that I'm like this person at all, even in the most basic thing, like this is another human being.
SPEAKER_04That's where we need to be able to get to. And the only way to do that is if we slow down our own reactions, develop the ability to observe ourselves, calm ourselves, our bodies down, and be able to decide, yes, I have this need that I'm trying to meet by desecrating another human being. How can I maybe meet that need in another way? There is a choice that I have. If I am needing power, meaning I matter, my voice can be heard, right? If that's what I need, is desecrating another human being the only way to get that need met? Or can I choose another way to get that need met? There's a lot of other ways to get that need met. We could even maybe say, hey, I respect that you have a difference of an opinion, right?
SPEAKER_00Well, that would be the great way to do it. Because that would be giving them some back while keeping all of your own. I think the the issue is also that people are trying to impose their quality world on everyone else. And if you don't have my quality world, then I'm gonna berate you.
SPEAKER_04But which is ironic because everybody's quality worlds are the same.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04They're choosing different ways to get those needs met, but our needs are all the same. What drives those quality worlds are are all the same needs. So if we stop and begin to act and choose out of our commonalities rather than our differences, and if we stop the most basic one being that we're all human, and we all have these five needs, yeah, and we're all the same in so many ways. We're also very different, okay? But we're also very much the same. So what if we stopped if we did in and I don't even mean as a collective whole, I mean just in each individual, if each individual took responsibility for their own behavior, really, even not for the greater good, for themselves, to be able to stop and think about what we're talking about today and go, really, is it in my best interest? Am I really acting in accordance with meeting these five basic needs that I have in the most effective manner, it with the least amount of consequences, and maybe taking a realistic look at those choices and being able to change, make a few changes for your own betterment, for your own family, for your own benefit there. And if you were to do that, would you be happier? Would you be more satisfied with your life? And if everybody did that, think about the change that we would experience as a collective whole. It's powerful if we all take responsibility for ourselves. It's it's immensely powerful. Instead of just looking at one another and blaming each other for our own unhappiness, that's why we're looping. And it's so sad. It just is just more trauma. It's just we're caught up in that loop, and we have the ability to be able to make different choices if we just calm ourselves down and be able to respond in accordance with our own needs and our own values.
SPEAKER_00I mean, there's that side of it. I I agree, that would be awesome to do. But of course, what we're doing instead is like picking a side. Yeah. Because picking a side gives us belonging. So it does feel a need.
SPEAKER_04It feels really good. I've been there, I've done that. Where I'm hating someone else from this position over here, belonging to Well, and then it's also like, well, my group's bigger than your group, so we must be right. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04There's a book. There's a book by Dr. Seuss. It's called Butterside Up. I think it's called Butterside Up. I remember reading this book a long time. I was really into Dr. Seuss and reading to my kids a long time ago when they were children. Now they're adults. And I just was buying these books or getting them from the library and not even paying attention to their titles or anything. And so one day I have my two innocent children and we're we're just reading Butterside Down or Butterside Up. And I'm realizing that this book is about the Cold War.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I'm like, what am I reading to my children right now? If you've never read it, I suggest you get it, get a copy of it or read it. And it really describes what's happening right now, I think, in our society today is we're just trying to one up each other. It's all about power.
SPEAKER_00Right. All over which side of toast the butter goes on, right? So essentially, what we all want is a buttered piece of toast.
SPEAKER_04Butterside up or butter side down.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'll butter it and fold it over if it puts it in the middle, as long as we can stop all this. Right. And for those of you who don't know the book, it was, you know, it's basically two different factions. I don't remember the names of them, the butter side up and butterside down sides. And there's a wall, and you know, they keep each other safe. And then, you know, a BB goes and hits one guy, and then one side goes and builds a bigger gun and/or whatever. And then elephants have to drag, you know, in the good old Dr. Seuss fashion. But it was like essentially escalating the adversarial response to somebody wanting a buttered piece of toast. Which is essentially what we're what we're all looking for here.
SPEAKER_04This is a brilliant book.
SPEAKER_00We're all looking for that buttered piece of toast. Which direction it faces, I guess, is the most important here.
SPEAKER_04And this isn't to minimize anybody's uh values or or things that they are arguing about, right?
SPEAKER_00It's about being both sides have very valuable points, right?
SPEAKER_04It's just that instead of being so hell-bent on arguing your side, maybe I maybe we can begin to look at how we both like butter, right? Or where are the commonalities? We both like toast, but you like it this way, and I like it this way. So, how do we create a society where where we can both have what we need or want? Okay, because essentially the the butter side up is the way to meet the same the need that the butter side down people is are trying to meet as well. It's the same need, right? The need to be seen, the need to be loved, the need to be to be heard, right?
SPEAKER_00These are to be free, to have fun, all of them. All five of them.
SPEAKER_04It's the same need, yet we're fighting so voraciously about how we're going to meet those needs. And and bringing it back down to the individual system. You know, it's just even recognizing in my experience, so many of my clients have never thought this way. They're not thinking and putting together that the actions they're taking are an attempt at meeting one of those five basic needs. They're not aware of that. I wasn't aware of that when I was in my 20s, looking at, you know, at that question of do I need to stop at a red light? Right? Do I have to stop at a red light? I do not have to stop at a red light, but I choose to.
SPEAKER_00What happens when the fulfillment in the short term of one of those needs leads to removing or taking from the support of other of those needs in the long term, right? So, like we we had at the very beginning of this talk started talking about the estrangement, right? So, like in the short term, it is gross to talk to so-and-so because he or she believes in this, right? So there's a little bit of, I don't matter there, probably there's some power issues there. But in the end, I've now removed a family member. So my connection's gone down. Love and connection's gone down. Probably my fun goes down. I'm assuming that I do things with these people that I no longer speak to, right? So, like in the short term, I fulfilled my power. And in the not so short term, however long it's been, I have now removed my ability to fulfill some of my other basic needs. Why are we not getting to that?
SPEAKER_03Right?
SPEAKER_00Why are we not going like, oh my God, what am I doing here? I am ramped up all the time. I am reactive all the time. It is now starting to chop away at my perceived world, my quality world, and all my five basic needs. And we just keep it going.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_00Why?
SPEAKER_04That's a really quick, great question. Because we can't see the larger thing. I don't think we're tuned into that. We're just trying to, in the short term, feeling really good about sticking it to the other person.
SPEAKER_00And part of it would be because we're all participating in it, we can live in this constant loop of short-term relief or short-term motivation for a need. But in the end, it just gets us on two polarized sides with this huge void in the middle.
SPEAKER_04Can I can can I bring in an example? Okay. We went to the this bowl game, the citrus bowl game. And we are a line-eye fans. We both went to Big Ten football. Yes. Okay. And so we were so excited. We have we were on vacation in Florida, and it happened to be that the Citrus Bowl was playing like not too far from where we were staying. So we were so excited. The whole families there were just really, really jacked, right? So we show up, we go there, we're excited. And right behind us are the SEC fans. Yes, SEC fans.
SPEAKER_00And SEC is a different, a different mindset.
SPEAKER_04I had no idea.
SPEAKER_00I had a huge enlightening awakening experience, but I'll let Patty keep going.
SPEAKER_04So we're sitting, and as soon as the game starts, the moment the ball gets kicked off, these people behind us start screaming all sorts of profanities and just SEC football. They're screaming SEC football and all these obscenities. I can't even watch the game. Nobody can watch the game. Nobody around us in the section could watch the game. That's how loud it was.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there happened to be a couple of SEC fans for the other team in our section, which, you know, they kind of they try to divide the stadium up into like sides so that it's you know, so you can watch with you can be connected during a fun experience. You know, but anyway, yeah, they were in the wrong section. He was actually I'm so glad that they were.
SPEAKER_04Yes, because we learned so much. So my my son is starting, he, you know, all of our nervous systems are in fight flight because you how could you not? It's it's actually there was an actual threat. It's it was like just kept coming at me. The screaming was yeah, the screaming.
SPEAKER_00Well, because it was taking away from your ability to have fun. It was in fact threatening one of your basic needs. Like I'm there for fun. This is taking from it.
SPEAKER_04Yes, very much so. It was intruding, it was crossing my boundary, it was intruding on my space, and not just mine, but everybody's okay. So everybody's nervous system was elevated into this sympathetic. How could it not be? And I am sitting there and I'm I'm uh just really conflicted. There's a part of me that literally there like wants to power patty that, you know, wants to just literally just shut that guy up, okay? Then there's another part of me that's like, wait a minute, he's here to see this game too. And I wonder if we can find some common ground. Okay. So my son is getting activated and he's starting to get Mowbi back. Okay. And my daughter is kind of checked out, you know, she's just wants it, just wants to watch the games. She's just kind of going to dorsal bagel. Cam, I'm not sure where you were, but I was really fighting my fight-flight response for sure.
SPEAKER_00I was trying to calm Cam down.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's right. That's right. And so you were trying to find purpose and just serving that need.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it part of me was like, I love that they're this passionate about the game because I too love football.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00From the Big Ten football side. Butter side up. Okay. So to some degree, I got it. And and I think it was interesting because our daughter, I don't think she checked out. She was trying to connect with them. Because if you they, you know, they because some of there was also a family and the their students that went to the school, and they were talking about what they're studying, where their jobs are going to go, like during time. So she was trying to bring them together. I was super proud of her for that. The motivation, I don't know what it was. Was, but she was trying to connect the girlfriends. Were the girlfriends of the boys were kind of embarrassed. They're like, oh my gosh, what's going on? Right. The dad and I definitely had two polar opposite, but that was because where we came from, right? In terms of who we supported. It was, of course, Big Ten Football won, so I I was fine with that.
SPEAKER_04So we did win that bowl game. But that's not the point.
SPEAKER_00No, but but here's where I thought it was so interesting. As we're walking out, now of course I have my Allini gear on, and and I'm walking, and everybody with the SEC gear is congratulating me on the victory. And I'm like, you guys, I had nothing to do with it. I was sitting there watching just like everybody else. And the more and more of this people are coming to me, I'm realizing that they know I didn't actively participate, but because their passion for this game is such that they are so connected to SEC football that it was my win. They literally felt like I won something, which I guess I did. My team won, but I don't connect to it that way. For them, their team winning provides them with so much value. Their quality world relies on SEC football being the best and winning.
SPEAKER_04And there's a tendency to want to judge that.
SPEAKER_00And at first I did. I was like, I I remember even walking walking in the concourse with you, and I'm like, Patty, that guy thinks I played. Like I just won. Right? And of course I didn't. But but what it really was when I stopped and stopped judging it like SEC fans are crazy, they're not. They just have a passion for it and they feel so connected to it. It's just different. It's just different. But you know what? It's also okay. Like those guys that were sitting kind of in the wrong section, it's very possible that if they were sitting in the SEC part of the stadium, that the whole stadium was like that. Their whole half could have been like that. I don't know. I wasn't sitting there. I have a feeling that's how those games are for them. Big Ten fans, we just like, you know, we hate Michigan, we hate Ohio State. And the rest is just a game.
SPEAKER_04And at what point though, okay, does that action impede the other person's space? So that's all you're different. And that's okay, right?
SPEAKER_00Like after the game, some of them were but they also didn't understand that I don't connect to Big Ten football. Like they we were on two.
SPEAKER_04So that so I think truly, I these these two human beings that were making all that all that horrific ruckus, they were intoxicated and they were they were passionate, but they had turned that it turned into hate. And they were trying to, they were trying to make us uncomfortable. That was their point. They were attempting to do that. So I'm a so going back to me and my my my two minds, right? Like I was ignited in that fight, flight. But then I was like, maybe if I just try to bring us together. And I attempted that, if you remember. I do, right? I tried to say, hey, boys, I looked at the dad, I said, hey, we all want to be here.
SPEAKER_00That's was that that was and that was also when they were booing the hurt player. Remember that? Yes. But but they had a reason for that, even, right? It wasn't that they wanted the player to be hurt, but because in SEC football, there's like these things with people pretending to be hurt to get timeouts at the end of the game. Like this was unbeknownst to Big Ten players. That's not a thing. Right. But the accusation started flying, right? But in the end, the goal was the same. We both wanted our team to win.
SPEAKER_04And these people were acting in a way. It's not just the difference, because I think most of the other SEC fans were like the ones that were walking out, and they were all just very, they were, they were respectful and kind and wanted to watch the game too. These two particular individuals were acting in a way that was impeding everybody else's fun, and they were crossing boundaries with that behavior because they were intoxicated.
SPEAKER_00Well, and especially as the game was getting more and more towards the decision where they were gonna lose, that became, well, if they lose, I'm a loser.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Of course, what do you do then? Like that's got to guard something.
SPEAKER_04Or were these people just so messed up? I looked at the dad and I said, like, are you gonna continue to allow these kids to scream and yell? They weren't, they were drunk, right? Or high on something. This wasn't just normal fans. But it their behavior was so egregious that it ignited my fight or flight system. And I remember trying to find some common ground, but I couldn't because they were so intoxicated. Okay. So the all the reason why I brought this story up was because later I was talking to my dad. And my dad is uh 100% Sicilian, 80-year-old man. And I was telling him about this story, and I was kind of telling him about how how difficult it was and and just all of that. And he went right to violence. He went right to violence in his head. He's like, somebody needed to knock those kids out. And I was like, well, I don't think I don't think that's the answer, Dad. Like, I I think that in his mind, he could not see that violence wasn't the answer. He was so in his own mind, his own understanding that that behavior deserves a beating, okay, in his mind, that there was zero room for let's talk about our differences.
SPEAKER_00If those kids But that's also a cultural response.
SPEAKER_04I mean, right truly from a from an age standpoint, uh, from a from an ethnicity standpoint. Like if somebody is hurting you in some way or is in your space, you give them a beating. I mean, that's just that's how he grew up, right? And that's how he got belonging, right? That in his in his childhood, right.
SPEAKER_00But if you take those cultural aspects as part of the human element.
SPEAKER_04That's this is exactly the reason why I brought this up.
SPEAKER_00As part of the human element as opposed to dehumanizing them, you will see that this your 80-year-old dad's not going to be beating up anybody at the stadium, right? So you stand in front, you're in front of the person, you uh you identify, okay, this is where he's coming from, this is where I'm coming from, this is his background. This he doesn't really want to just beat me up, but that's how he regains his power.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and I can regain my power by just being like, oh wow, SEC football is different than Illinois football, but Big Ten won. And uh, you know, but we all wanted the same thing here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00We all wanted giving a beating to that guy would have just landed both of you tossed out of the stadium.
SPEAKER_04That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00And nobody would have got what they're doing. That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_04Now he couldn't see that because he's had 80 years of, you know, and I and I can appreciate that, and I can see that there's even differences in the way that we would have handled that situation, right? And I think to, I think like I challenged myself there, even with telling my dad the story, right? Because he was just so stuck on the beating in his mind, right? Um, and deserving it. So when somebody, this concept of when someone does something to you, they deserve, they deserve to have consequences. They deserve, right? And by trying to understand what's underneath that behavior is sometimes seen as an excuse. And I think that those two things can live in the same space. We can say, yes, this person acted in a way that needs a consequence, right? Like if you steal from a store, okay, then you deserve a consequence. And what can live in the same space is understanding why that person chose to steal, right? What need of theirs are they trying to meet by stealing? And then how can I connect with that person who's obviously suffering in some way that they're they're breaking the law and now have to has to endure consequences, okay? Instead of me just getting caught up in how much they deserve, they did something bad and they stole, I would challenge, I challenge myself on this all the time, to think about and what can live in the same space and doesn't excuse the behavior, but by understanding what drives behavior, we can find more viable solutions then and support those who are acting in accordance with things that bring them negative consequences, that then just perpetuates that loop and that trauma begets trauma, begets trauma. Right? We need to be able to create a space where understanding where behavior comes from is okay.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_04It's almost like threatening just to just to begin. It's not accepted in our culture to explore what drives different behaviors. We're just so hell-bent on judging the behavior itself.
SPEAKER_00Right. And who's to say that that individual's behavior was actually intended to harm me? It could just be their behavior that was being done so that they could fulfill one of their needs. I may upload it as harmful to me, but that might not be the original intention.
SPEAKER_04Somebody else's opinion doesn't have to be harmful to you.
SPEAKER_00Somebody else's opinion is not meant to harm me. It's simply for them to express how their perceived world is different from their quality world. That's all it is. That's right. Has nothing to do with me at all.
SPEAKER_04And then some of you might be asking, well, going back to those SEC guys who were belligerent and drunk and acting not like other SEC fans, they were intoxicated, right? What my my dad was like, Well, what would you do then? And I was like, Well, what ended up happening was that the author someone someone brought the authorities over, right? And they ended up leaving, right? Didn't they end up leaving? Yeah, like not all. Just the two. Just the two were removed from the situation. So that the rest of the thing.
SPEAKER_00But those fans still remained with that same premise, right? That they feel it differently.
SPEAKER_04They really that wasn't the issue. No, that the difference in opinion wasn't the issue. The difference in the way they were experiencing that that Big Ten football game.
SPEAKER_00I still think back to when I was walking and that that guy, you know, he's probably my age or a little bit more wearing his SEC stuff, literally congratulating me on the game. As I like, it took me a I processed that a lot. Because I kept hearing it over and over again. How big that actually was for him to say. Because he connects so deeply with this, and it is part of his, it is part of him.
SPEAKER_04And he was joining, he wasn't trying to keep separate from us. He was like, hey.
SPEAKER_00To acknowledge, like, first of all, it's a great game.
SPEAKER_04It was a good game.
SPEAKER_00Right. And he he came up on the shorter end of it, but like it was just for him to for him to come and say that, like, that's what we're looking for here. I'd like everybody to be like, I wish I knew who that guy was. I don't. It was just some random guy walking out of a stadium. But he gets it, right?
SPEAKER_04He got it. He got it. And I think he was more representative of all those other SEC fans.
SPEAKER_00Boy, I sure hope so. But it's hard to feel that way these days because everybody's just so everything that I hate is because you're doing it to me.
SPEAKER_04It's easy to put all those SEC into a category based on my one experience of these two drunken fellas. Okay. So, but that's not in fact what happened.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_04Okay. And and it was because of this intoxication that was giving SEC football fans a bad name.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04You know, because I don't believe that's how SEC football.
SPEAKER_00No, and it was amazing. I mean, I don't know if you remember like how the passion is so ingrained.
SPEAKER_02I almost respect it.
SPEAKER_00They were all there wearing the same colors with the white towels. I mean, they looked like they were basically hired to support their team. And then here we are, the rag back tag group of people in half a stadium, some in orange, some in blue, some in white. Yay, no towels, no nothing. The whole other side, perfect maroon, white tiles fly, chance in unison. I mean, they belong, right? We're just like, oh yeah, sweet. We're in a bowl game. Well, I mean, partially it's because we're in a bowl game. It's like, what? We're in a bowl game. No, we don't even know how to be there.
SPEAKER_04I think, I think the takeaway, right, is to the takeaway of this whole podcast, what we're hoping that you gain from it, is just some ability now with this framework of needs, and that everything that we do is an attempt at meeting one of those five basic needs: freedom, fun, love and belonging, power, and survival. And if you begin to think about, I guess I'll just ask you or challenge you to think about what need of yours you're trying to meet when you act with any behavior you choose to act with, bringing some awareness so that we can all evolve into being able to respond in accordance with our values and our quality worlds and what what our needs are, and being able to act in a way that isn't harmful to your other values. And I challenge.
SPEAKER_00But it's also to know that when other people are doing that, they're not trying to take from you.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Right. Be more curious about your own behavior, right? And and and orienting to the control you do have, which is your own, your the only control you have is your own behavior. And so I hope that that lands in that way with everybody. And hopefully we were successful in being able to bring this larger concept of how hate and the the hate we're witnessing today, and not only just talking about that and acknowledging that as an issue, but hopefully we began to get some of you thinking about a potential solution for that phenomenon that we are witnessing in our culture today. So, with that, I will say goodbye, Cam. Say goodbye. Goodbye.
SPEAKER_00Thank you all for listening.
SPEAKER_04And we'll see you next time.