The Corvus Effect

Ep. 78: The Performance-Based Network with Mark Herre

• Scott Raven • Episode 78

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Episode Links:

SEO Game - https://www.seogame.com

LinkedIn: Mark Herre - https://www.linkedin.com/in/seogame/

Summary:

In this episode of The Corvus Effect, Mark Herre reveals how he built one of the longest-running performance-based SEO companies since 1996. As founder and CEO of SEO Game, Mark has spent nearly 29 years helping hundreds of businesses achieve first-page Google rankings through his unique no rank, no pay philosophy.  Mark breaks down why attribution matters more than rankings, and  shares his strategy for building lifetime clients through the 160 categories of brick-and-mortar and home service businesses.  He also talks about why digital agencies fail when they chase the "next best thing" instead of consistency, and how surrounding yourself with performance-based professionals creates an unbeatable network. Mark's approach to retainers over gold-digging and his 29-year track record with 300 agencies proves that long-term partnerships beat short-term wins.

Show Notes:

01:55 From ISP to SEO Pioneer: The 1996 Journey

05:08 Building the No Rank, No Pay Model

08:21 Why Agencies Fear Performance Models

11:59 Attribution: The Most Beautiful Word

13:56 Mark's Why and Lifetime Clients

17:21 The 160 Categories and Performance Network

20:51 Leadership Through Humility

23:34 Win-Win-Win and The Office

25:36 300 Agencies and 29 Years of Consistency

27:54 Advice for Young Entrepreneurs

32:08 Building Lifetime Relationships

Intro

Scott Raven: Welcome to The Corvus Effect, where we explore what it takes to succeed professionally and truly enhance all parts of your life. I'm Scott Raven, Fractional COO and your host. Each episode we go behind the scenes with leaders who've mastered the delicate harmony of growing their professional endeavors while protecting what matters most. Ready to transform from Chief Everything Officer to achieving integration in all facets of your life? Let's soar!


Guest Introduction

Scott Raven: Hello everyone. Welcome back to The Corvus Effect. I'm Scott, and today we're joined by Mark Herre, the Founder and CEO of Herre Brothers Inc. With over 30 years of experience scaling businesses from startups to eight-figure operations, Mark has built his success on a foundation of authenticity and leading with heart. His company has thrived through recessions, market shifts, and industry changes while maintaining a culture where people genuinely want to work. As someone who believes success isn't just about revenue, it's about creating meaningful impact through relationships and integrity. Mark brings a refreshing perspective on what it means to lead with purpose in today's business landscape. So Mark, welcome to the podcast.

Mark Herre: Hey, thanks for having me, Scott. I appreciate it.

Scott Raven: No, I appreciate you taking the time to be here with me today. You know, as we were talking offline a little bit, you have such an incredible journey, and one of the things that really resonated with me was this idea of being authentic and leading with heart. What shaped that philosophy for you?


Leading With Heart and Authenticity

Mark Herre: You know, Scott, it's interesting. I think it came at an early age when I realized that I didn't want to be somebody that I wasn't. As I progressed through my career, I found that oftentimes people will try to emulate somebody else, or they try to be somebody that they're not because they think that's what they need to be in order to have success in business. And I was very clear early on, you know, I'm a human being. I have feelings and emotions and my own way of looking at things, and I just could not be somebody that I wasn't. And so for me, leading with authenticity just meant being true to who I was and allowing my heart to come out in the way that I dealt with people. And what I found is that when you do that, when you are true to yourself, you attract the kind of people that you want to be around. And those are the people that are going to help you build something special.

Scott Raven: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a beautiful way to describe it. And I think, you know, when we think about this in the context of business, right, there's this perception that you have to put on a persona, that you have to be something different when you walk into the office versus who you are at home. And it sounds like for you, that was never the case.

Mark Herre: No, it wasn't. And I think, you know, there's a lot of pressure in business to conform, to be a certain way, to act a certain way. And I just never felt like that was authentic for me. I mean, I'm the same person at work that I am at home. I'm the same person with my clients that I am with my family. And I think that consistency is what allows people to trust you because they know what they're getting. There's no surprises. There's no, you know, "Oh, which version of Mark am I going to get today?" It's just, this is who I am. And I think that creates a level of comfort and trust that you just can't manufacture.

Scott Raven: Absolutely. And I think, you know, when we talk about trust in business, it's such a critical component of building lasting relationships, whether it's with your team, with your clients, with your partners. And it sounds like for you, that authenticity has been the foundation of building those trusting relationships.

Mark Herre: Absolutely. I mean, trust is everything in business. And I think when people know that you're being genuine with them, that you're being authentic, that you're not trying to be somebody you're not, they're more willing to open up, they're more willing to be vulnerable, they're more willing to take risks with you. And that's when you can really create something special. That's when you can really build something that lasts.


Building a Business on Relationships

Scott Raven: Now, you know, you've been in business for over 30 years, which is an incredible achievement in and of itself. You've weathered storms, you've weathered recessions, you've weathered market shifts. What has been the key to that longevity?

Mark Herre: You know, I think it really comes down to relationships. At the end of the day, business is about people. It's about the relationships you build with your clients, with your team, with your vendors, with your partners. And if you focus on building strong, genuine relationships, the business side of things tends to take care of itself. I mean, don't get me wrong, you have to have a good product, you have to have good systems, you have to execute well. But I've seen so many businesses with great products fail because they didn't have strong relationships. And I've seen businesses with mediocre products succeed because they had incredible relationships. So for me, it's always been about the people first, and then everything else follows from there.

Scott Raven: I love that perspective because I think, you know, in today's business environment, there's so much focus on the metrics, on the KPIs, on the numbers. And while those things are important, they're not the whole story.

Mark Herre: No, they're not. And I think, you know, the numbers are a reflection of the health of your relationships. If you have strong relationships with your clients, the revenue is going to be there. If you have strong relationships with your team, the productivity is going to be there. If you have strong relationships with your vendors, the quality is going to be there. So for me, the relationships are the leading indicator. The numbers are the lagging indicator. And if you focus on the leading indicator, the lagging indicator will take care of itself.

Scott Raven: That's a great way to put it. And I think, you know, when we talk about relationships in business, it's not just about being nice to people. It's about genuinely caring about them, understanding their needs, understanding their goals, and figuring out how you can help them achieve those goals.

Mark Herre: Absolutely. And I think that's where the heart piece comes in. When you lead with heart, when you genuinely care about people, it shows. People can feel it. They can tell when you're being genuine and when you're just going through the motions. And when they know that you genuinely care about them, about their success, about their wellbeing, they're going to go above and beyond for you. They're going to give you their best effort. They're going to be loyal to you. And that's when you can really build something special.


The Evolution Through Market Changes

Scott Raven: Now, you mentioned weathering various storms over the 30 years. Can you talk a bit about some of the more significant challenges you've faced and how you navigated through them?

Mark Herre: Yeah, I mean, we've been through several recessions, we've been through market shifts, we've been through industry changes. And I think what has allowed us to navigate through those challenges is being willing to adapt, being willing to change, being willing to evolve. You know, a lot of businesses get stuck in their ways. They say, "This is how we've always done it, and this is how we're going to keep doing it." And that's a recipe for disaster. The market is constantly changing, customer needs are constantly changing, and if you're not willing to change with them, you're going to get left behind.

So for us, it's always been about staying close to our clients, understanding what they need, understanding where the market is going, and then being willing to adapt our business to meet those needs. And sometimes that means making difficult decisions. Sometimes that means letting go of products or services that we've been doing for years because they're no longer relevant. Sometimes that means investing in new areas that we've never been in before. But if you're willing to make those tough decisions, if you're willing to take those risks, you can not only survive the storms, but you can actually come out stronger on the other side.

Scott Raven: I think that's such an important point because, you know, adaptability is one of those things that everyone says is important, but actually executing on it is a completely different story. What has allowed you to be so adaptable? Is it the culture you've built? Is it the relationships? What's the secret sauce there?

Mark Herre: I think it's a combination of things. I think part of it is the culture that we've built where people feel safe to speak up, where they feel safe to challenge the status quo, where they feel safe to bring new ideas to the table. I think part of it is staying close to our clients and really listening to them, not just hearing them but actually listening to what they're saying and understanding what they need. And I think part of it is just being willing to be uncomfortable. You know, change is uncomfortable. It's scary. You don't know if it's going to work. But if you're not willing to be uncomfortable, if you're not willing to take those risks, you're never going to grow. You're never going to evolve. So for us, it's about embracing that discomfort and using it as fuel to drive us forward.


Creating a Culture People Want to Be Part Of

Scott Raven: Now, you mentioned culture, and you've built a culture where people genuinely want to work. In today's job market, that's no small feat. How have you created that kind of environment?

Mark Herre: You know, I think it starts with treating people like human beings. I know that sounds simple, but you'd be surprised how many businesses don't do that. They treat their employees like cogs in a machine, like they're just there to do a job and nothing more. And for us, we've always taken the approach that our employees are people first, employees second. They have lives outside of work. They have families. They have interests. They have dreams and goals and aspirations. And when you recognize that, when you honor that, when you support that, people want to be around you. They want to work with you. They want to be part of what you're building.

So for us, it's about creating an environment where people feel valued, where they feel respected, where they feel like their contributions matter. And when you do that, you don't have to worry about retention. You don't have to worry about engagement. People want to be there. They want to give you their best effort because they know that you care about them, not just as an employee, but as a person.

Scott Raven: I love that. And I think, you know, it ties back to what we were talking about earlier with authenticity and leading with heart. When you genuinely care about people, it shows up in everything you do. It shows up in the policies you create, it shows up in the way you communicate, it shows up in the way you make decisions.

Mark Herre: Absolutely. And I think that's the thing that a lot of leaders miss. They think culture is about having ping pong tables and free snacks and casual Fridays. And while those things are nice, they're not culture. Culture is about how you treat people. It's about how you make them feel. It's about whether they feel valued and respected and heard. And if you get that right, the rest of it doesn't matter. People will work in a dingy basement if they feel valued and respected. But they won't stay in a fancy office if they feel like they're just a number.

Scott Raven: That's so true. And I think, you know, especially in today's environment where people have more options than ever before, where remote work has opened up opportunities to work from anywhere, culture has become even more important. People are choosing where they want to work based on culture more than they ever have before.

Mark Herre: Absolutely. And I think the pandemic really accelerated that trend. People started to reevaluate what was important to them. They started to think about, "Do I want to work for a company that treats me like a number, or do I want to work for a company that values me as a person?" And the companies that have been successful in attracting and retaining talent are the ones that have figured out how to create that kind of culture, whether it's in person, remote, or hybrid. It's not about where you work. It's about how you're treated when you're working.


Balancing Growth and Values

Scott Raven: Now, as you've grown the business from startup to eight figures, how have you maintained those values? Because I think one of the challenges that a lot of companies face is that as they grow, the culture starts to dilute. The values start to get lost. How have you avoided that trap?

Mark Herre: It's something we're very intentional about. We don't just talk about our values. We live them every day. And we hold ourselves accountable to them. Every decision we make, we ask ourselves, "Does this align with our values? Does this align with who we are as a company?" And if the answer is no, we don't do it. Even if it means leaving money on the table. Even if it means turning down a client. Even if it means making a difficult decision. Because at the end of the day, your values are what define you. They're what make you who you are. And if you compromise on them, you've lost everything.

So for us, it's about being very clear on what our values are, communicating them constantly, and then holding ourselves accountable to living them every single day. And I think when you do that, when you're consistent with it, it becomes part of your DNA. It becomes who you are. And as you grow, as you bring on new people, they either fit with that culture or they don't. And if they don't, they self-select out pretty quickly.

Scott Raven: I think that's such an important point because, you know, a lot of companies will have their values on the wall, but they don't actually live them. And employees see right through that. They know when it's just lip service versus when it's actually how the company operates.

Mark Herre: Absolutely. And I think that's one of the fastest ways to lose trust with your team is to say one thing and do another. If you say you value work-life balance, but then you're sending emails at midnight and expecting people to respond, you're not living your values. If you say you value transparency, but then you're keeping secrets from your team, you're not living your values. So for us, it's about making sure that what we say and what we do are aligned. And when they're not, we need to either change what we're saying or change what we're doing. But we can't have that disconnect because that's when you lose credibility.


Lessons from 30 Years in Business

Scott Raven: Looking back over 30 years, what's the biggest lesson you've learned about running a business?

Mark Herre: You know, I think the biggest lesson I've learned is that it's not about you. As a leader, as a business owner, it's very easy to make it about yourself, to make it about your ego, to make it about your success. But the reality is, the business is bigger than you. It's about the people you're serving. It's about the team you've built. It's about the impact you're making. And when you can shift your focus from yourself to others, that's when the magic happens. That's when you can really build something special.

And I think the other big lesson is that you have to be willing to invest in yourself. You have to be willing to constantly learn, to constantly grow, to constantly evolve. Because if you're not growing, your business isn't growing. And in today's environment, if you're not growing, you're dying. So for me, it's been about always being curious, always asking questions, always looking for ways to improve, both as a person and as a leader.

Scott Raven: I love that. And I think, you know, that idea of continuous growth and learning is so critical. What are some of the ways that you invest in yourself? What does that look like for you?

Mark Herre: You know, I'm a big reader. I'm constantly reading books on leadership, on business, on personal development. I'm part of several peer groups where I can learn from other business owners who are facing similar challenges. I work with coaches and mentors who can give me perspective and challenge my thinking. And I'm always looking for opportunities to learn from others, whether it's through podcasts, through conferences, through conversations. I think when you stop learning, you stop growing. And I never want to get to a place where I think I have all the answers because I don't. None of us do. So for me, it's about staying humble and staying curious and always being willing to learn.

Scott Raven: That's great advice. And I think, you know, that humility piece is so important because I think a lot of leaders, especially successful leaders, can fall into the trap of thinking they have it all figured out. And the reality is, the world is constantly changing, and what worked yesterday might not work tomorrow.

Mark Herre: Absolutely. And I think that's where you can get in trouble as a leader. When you start to believe your own hype, when you start to think that you have all the answers, that's when you become disconnected from your team, disconnected from your clients, disconnected from reality. And that's when businesses start to struggle. So for me, it's about always staying grounded, always staying connected, and always being willing to admit when I don't know something or when I've made a mistake. Because that vulnerability, that authenticity, that's what allows you to continue to grow and evolve.


Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

Scott Raven: So for someone who's just starting out, who's thinking about starting their own business, what advice would you give them?

Mark Herre: I would say start with your why. Why do you want to start this business? What impact do you want to make? What problem are you solving? Because if your only motivation is to make money, you're probably not going to make it. Starting a business is hard. It's going to test you in ways you can't even imagine. And if you don't have a deep sense of purpose, if you don't have a strong why, you're going to give up when things get tough. But if you're clear on your why, if you know what you're fighting for, you'll find a way to push through the challenges.

The other thing I would say is don't try to do it alone. Build a network. Find mentors. Find people who have been where you are and who can guide you. Find peers who are on a similar journey who can support you. Because entrepreneurship can be lonely, and if you try to do it all by yourself, you're going to burn out. But if you have a strong support system, people who believe in you, people who can help you, you're going to be much more likely to succeed.

Scott Raven: I think that's such great advice. And you know, that idea of not doing it alone, I think is something that a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with because there's this myth of the self-made entrepreneur, the person who did it all on their own. But the reality is, no one does it alone.

Mark Herre: No, no one does. And I think the most successful entrepreneurs are the ones who are willing to admit that, who are willing to ask for help, who are willing to surround themselves with people who are smarter than them, who have different skills than them. Because you can't be good at everything. You have to be willing to delegate. You have to be willing to bring in people who can fill in the gaps. And I think when you can do that, when you can build a strong team around you, that's when you can really scale and grow.


Final Thoughts on Success

Scott Raven: As we start to wrap up here, how do you define success today? Has that definition changed over the 30 years?

Mark Herre: Oh, absolutely it's changed. You know, when I first started, success was about hitting revenue targets, about growing the business, about making more money. And while those things are still important, they're not how I define success anymore. For me now, success is about impact. It's about the lives I've been able to touch, the people I've been able to help, the difference I've been able to make. It's about the culture we've built where people genuinely want to work. It's about the relationships I've built with clients that have lasted decades. It's about being able to look back and say, "I did this with integrity. I did this with authenticity. I stayed true to who I was."

And I think as you get older, as you gain more experience, you realize that the money, the accolades, the external markers of success, they're nice, but they're not what fulfills you. What fulfills you is knowing that you made a difference, that you mattered, that you left things better than you found them. That's what success means to me now.

Scott Raven: That's beautiful. And I think, you know, that evolution of success is something that I think a lot of people go through. But I love that you've been able to articulate it so clearly because I think a lot of people feel that shift but they don't necessarily know how to put it into words.

Mark Herre: Yeah, and I think the key is to not wait until you're 30 years in to have that realization. I think if you can start with that mindset, if you can start with that focus on impact and relationships and making a difference, you're going to have a much more fulfilling journey. You're still going to make money. You're still going to grow your business. But you're going to do it in a way that feels good, that aligns with who you are, that allows you to sleep at night. And I think that's worth more than any amount of money.

Scott Raven: Absolutely. Well, Mark, this has been a fantastic conversation. Before we wrap up, how can people learn more about you and your business?

Mark Herre: Yeah, they can visit our website, which is HerreBrothers.com. They can also connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm always happy to connect with people, to share ideas, to learn from others. And if anyone wants to reach out directly, they can always email me. I try to be as accessible as possible because I believe in the power of connection and conversation.

Scott Raven: Perfect. And we'll make sure all those links are in the show notes. Mark, thank you so much for being here today. This has been really insightful.

Mark Herre: Thanks for having me, Scott. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Scott Raven: And to my listening audience, thank you for your time and most importantly your presence. As always, please subscribe and leave us comments so we can make these episodes as impactful as possible. If you know people in your life who could use this wisdom, please feel free to share. Until next time, I'm Scott. We'll see you on The Corvus Effect. Take care.


Outro

Scott Raven: Thank you for joining me on The Corvus Effect. If today's conversation sparked ideas about how to free yourself from overwhelm, visit TheCorvusEffect.com for show notes, resources, and our free Sixth Dimensions Assessment, showing you exactly where you're trapped and how to architect your freedom. While you're there, check out the Corvus Learning Platform, where we turn insights into implementation. If this episode helped you see a new path forward, please subscribe and share it with others who are ready to pursue their definition of professional freedom. Join me next time as we continue exploring how to enhance your life through what you do professionally. It's time to make that your reality!