The Corvus Effect

Ep. 88: From Send Button to Sailboats: Finding Freedom in Marketing with Perry Sheraw

• Scott Raven • Episode 88

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Episode Links:

Perry Sheraw - https://perrysheraw.com/

Duma Marketing - https://www.dumacx.com/

LinkedIn: Perry Sheraw - https://www.linkedin.com/in/perrysheraw/

Summary:

In this episode of The Corvus Effect, I welcome Perry Sheraw, managing partner of Duma Marketing and a digital marketing pioneer with roots in print journalism at the Cincinnati Enquirer. Perry shares how her foundational philosophy of treating every email as a real conversation has driven 20 years of success helping Fortune 500 companies and startups alike. She reveals why tying marketing metrics to revenue attribution separates good campaigns from great ones, and how customer journey mapping can transform results. Perry also opens up about her journey from perfectionist to operationally independent business owner, allowing her to run her company from St. Croix while supporting her daughter's international sailing career.

Show Notes:

00:32 Guest Introduction

02:36 One of the Only People with Email

04:54 Too Cold for Cincinnati

06:30 Where There's a Will

08:57 The Swiftness of the Cheetah

10:11 You're Talking to Someone

13:59 The Jackson Pollock Customer Journey

15:37 Start with Your Baselines

17:35 Permission to Think Differently

20:52 Identity and the Send Button

23:32 Take a Two Week Vacation

29:43 Legacy for Young Marketers

32:25 Final Thoughts

Intro

Scott Raven: Welcome to The Corvus Effect, where we explore what it takes to succeed professionally and truly enhance all parts of your life. I’m Scott Raven, Fractional COO and your host. Each episode we go behind the scenes with leaders who’ve mastered the delicate harmony of growing their professional endeavors while protecting what matters most. Ready to transform from Chief Everything Officer to achieving integration in all facets of your life? Let’s soar!

 

Guest Introduction

Scott Raven: And hello everyone. Welcome back to The Corvus Effect. I am thrilled to have Perry Sheraw, managing partner of Duma Marketing on the podcast today. She started out in the 1990s as a print journalist for the Cincinnati Enquirer, and eventually moved to St. Croix where she became a scuba diving instructor, dive boat captain, and in 2002 started her own email marketing business.

 

For 20 years now, she has worked as a C-suite executive and consultant for Fortune 500 companies and startups specializing in everything from email marketing to SMS automation. All of the things that help bring single fluid conversations to every customer aiming to leave no money on the table.

 

And as I said, she lives in St. Croix. She’s raising two wonderful children, including her 15-year-old daughter who has aspirations for an international sailing career. So you want to talk about pursuing the definition of freedom, we’re about to get a dose of it. So, Perry, welcome to the podcast.

 

Perry Sheraw: Thank you so much for having me.

 

Scott Raven: Well, thank you for being here and let’s just dive right into it. And you had a wonderful influence from your father who ran an ad agency and told you once, if you have two doors, never lock one because it creates friction. So your journey really started in earnest in the 1990s during these editorial meetings that you were having when you were in print. Walk us through what those were like and how that eventually led you to change your path.

 

One of the Only People with Email

Perry Sheraw: Sure. I was working at the Cincinnati Enquirer in the nineties, and I was one of the only people in the newsroom with an email address. It was myself and one other intern at the time, and so it became very clear that we needed to embrace digital, but no one understood how.

 

At that time, the closest we got was database journalism where we would, and I did do several database journalism projects while I was at the Cincinnati Enquirer. But the editorial meetings were pretty much not going in any direction toward digital. At that time, it was just a bugaboo.

 

Scott Raven: Right. And I remember when I was in university in the mid to late 1990s, that’s really when it really started to take off. So that’s not to say that print was behind the times on purpose. It was still emerging. But you get into the latter part of the late 1990s and I know you are saying, look, either adopt or die here guys, and I don’t want to be on the sinking ship. You guys aren’t going to adopt.

 

Perry Sheraw: Yeah, that’s exactly right. I mean, I think it was well into the two thousands before media really started to learn how to monetize the whole business of news. I think they’re still struggling. I think we’re in the situation where we’ve got so many paywalls that it’s almost like the streaming services, right? You have so many subscriptions, it’s really hard to keep up with. I don’t think it’s sustainable. I think there’s going to need to be some things that evolve that help consolidate it. And then are we back to cable? I don’t know.

 

Scott Raven: Yeah, you never know. I mean, so many people are cutting the cord these days and using alternatives like YouTube TV, et cetera. And it’s kind of a perfect segue into bold moves because it was right around that time in your progression that you made the bold move to leave journalism. Of all things, a scuba instructor. So I want to hear what is going through Perry’s mind as this is coming through to fruition.

 

Too Cold for Cincinnati

Perry Sheraw: Right, right. Well, what was going through my mind was it’s too cold.

 

Scott Raven: Hey, look, I lived eight years in Ohio. I understand that pain, I’ll put it that way.

 

Perry Sheraw: Too cold, too many outfits per day. I needed some consistency in my weather life. And I also did believe that coming down here, which I did come down here as a journalist to begin with. I mean, I came on vacation, then got a job at the newspaper here. Very small newspaper here, and I thought maybe there was an opportunity for some award-winning journalism because of the corruption issues and because of the very severe weather that happens sometimes here.

 

Scott Raven: I gotcha. I mean, most people when they think about St. Croix are just like, oh my God, Perry, play me the world’s smallest violin. Right? But you would be quick to point out that not everything is paved in gold. And certainly thinking about your messy middle.

 

If we think about the progression that change is hard at first, messy in the middle, but beautiful in the end, that it is that period of time where you were in this messy middle, in between the journalism spot and the scuba instructing, that offline we talked about that this was a period of concern and self-doubt for you before you found what eventually became Duma. What do you think it was within yourself that gave you the resilience to push through this messy middle?

 

Where There’s a Will

Perry Sheraw: Well, my mother always said, where there’s a will, there’s a way. I actually wrote a column about that in college and that was always running through my head, and I think that just really sunk in for me. I was able to suspend disbelief and believe that well enough to really push through.

 

And I’ve always, despite tons of opportunity and insecurity moments, I have always just believed that if I just stay focused, keep working, keep pushing forward, that I can achieve my vision. And that’s the other part of all of it. I feel like even in that messy middle, I can remember very few times where I didn’t have a vision, and I allowed myself to believe that that vision was possible, even though I don’t know that I believed it a hundred percent of the time at all.

 

Scott Raven: You know what? I think we all deal with a certain degree of imposter syndrome no matter how successful we are, right? So there’s always a degree of self-doubt that we have to overcome. But that vision is so important, and I would say take me through 2002 when your vision started to come to reality. But that would be a falsehood. It’s really in 2005 when you took an incredible trip to Tanzania that you really got what was the inspiration for what is now Duma. So talk to us about that a little bit.

 

Perry Sheraw: Sure. For some reason I picked up Swahili. I can’t learn French, I can’t learn Spanish, but for some reason I picked up Swahili to the point where I was negotiating in Swahili. My husband was just like, what’s going on?

 

Scott Raven: All right. If I ever need anybody to speak Swahili on my behalf, I know somebody. So, and the listening audience knows somebody, so there you go.

 

Perry Sheraw: That’s right. It does not come in handy in business generally for email marketing, but I’ve got that in my bag of tricks.

 

Scott Raven: You never know. I hear there’s a Nigerian prince, so maybe we can have some conversations there. But if I understand it correctly, the name Duma comes from the Swahili word for cheetah, which I think a lot of the attributes of what we associate with the cheetah were things that you brought into the brand and the positioning that you wanted for your service. Is that right?

 

The Swiftness of the Cheetah

Perry Sheraw: That’s right. You know, just the swiftness. Cheetahs, of course, the fastest land animals, the swiftness of delivery, direct into the inbox. At the time I was only focused on email. That was my, another big leap for me was to leave an agency setting and just focus on email, just narrow it down. So that singularity of focus and the tenacity of the cheetah inspired me.

 

Scott Raven: Excellent. Now, you’ve obviously had an incredible run with this business. Having done this for 20 years at this point, and it’s all on this foundational philosophy of yours, which is it’s all about the conversation. I could go scour the web and every single sob story in terms of I send out all of this email and I’ve got no revenue to show for it, no leads, no nothing.

 

What is it that folks are missing in terms of this simple concept, it’s all about the conversation, that’s leading them to this hardship?

 

You’re Talking to Someone

Perry Sheraw: Right. You just can’t forget that you’re actually talking to someone. Even if you’re telling a story about yourself, you have to remember that it’s conversational. This is something that as a print journalist, I tried to do, even though it was a two dimensional result. I tried to make it conversational. I tried to speak in print as if I was speaking to a person sitting right across from me.

 

And you have to do the same thing with email, and you have to understand just like any conversation, read the room. Who are you talking to? What do they need? How can you help them? Because that is why they’re going to read your email. How can you help them? What do you have to offer to them in this conversation that’s going to make them stay engaged?

 

Scott Raven: Got it. Now, in the land of humans, conversations have a high degree that has nothing to do with the content of what you say. I think this stat is 7% is actually what you say, 36% is how you say it, and 53% is the nonverbal cues that you give off while saying it, if I remember that correctly.

 

It’s also been said that email is a lousy communicator of emotion for some of the same elements there. How do you, and you learned this from your journalism days, how do you overcome the constraints of the medium to carry the proper conversation?

 

Perry Sheraw: Yeah. It’s so interesting because line breaks. Now the use of emojis. But mostly it starts with being helpful. If you are being helpful and that audience is engaged on that level, they are going to sense that and they’re going to respond emotionally to the fact that you’re being helpful to them.

 

Scott Raven: Now you work with some very large firms in terms of who you advise and oftentimes, and I say this as a former corporate person, home office can get itself trapped in silos and they forget about the emotional connection to the consumer. How do you overcome their own challenges internally in order to present themselves in the best way externally?

 

Perry Sheraw: That’s a great question. It’s something that I feel like we have to approach slightly differently depending on the client, but it all kind of comes down to a really good brief in a lot of cases. If I can make sure that each client has a brief where we ask them to tell us what that goal is, what that connection is that they’re going for, and keep that front and center.

 

And I have to do that with my own staff and team members, the designers, everyone. What is our goal here? What is our connection to the audience here? And then also starts by talking about who the audience is. A lot of times emails are prepared and sent out, and there is no discussion about who the audience is. And so you’re kind of off track just to begin with.

 

Scott Raven: Right. Now I know one of the elements in order to aid in bringing all parties to the same boat is the customer journey mapping and being able to walk through the journey from the customer’s lens. Why is that so critical? It sounds obvious, but obvious doesn’t always get done correctly. Why is that so critical to be done correctly?

 

The Jackson Pollock Customer Journey

Perry Sheraw: Oh yeah. I mean, between the customer journey and then walking through that as an exercise, post-it notes or using digital boards, whatever. Just walking through that with a variety of personas. That customer journey is the map that helps you get into the shoes of your audience and feel what they’re going to expect at each step along the customer journey.

 

And also, for example, I can remember doing this on a really large customer journey. I mean, the whole board looked like spaghetti by the time we were finished. It was just like a Jackson Pollock scenario. But it helped us and helped my team at the time go through a super complex lending based customer journey and really drive amazing results. We hit records after going through that and rolling out the assets that were tied to each touch point in the customer journey.

 

Scott Raven: Nice. And you know it’s important to talk about results here because you have a philosophy in trying to help your clients leave no money on the table, right? There are so many firms, and I’m not knocking them, they’re trying to do the best for their clients, but may not hit the lagging measure that companies really care about, which is revenue and sales.

 

What is that extra step that you impart in your process to make sure that the big measure, the lagging measure of revenue hits the mark?

 

Start with Your Baselines

Perry Sheraw: It’s so important to start with your baselines. And to do that on every project, especially when you’re working with clients, that is one of the biggest disconnects between say, a marketing manager and the C-Suite. The marketing manager is like, look at these open rates. And the C-suite is like, what does that mean?

 

And so we start with baselines. These open rates, what is the attribution for the channels that we’re working through, whether it’s email or SMS? When you’ve got something like Klaviyo in your e-commerce, it’s easy peasy, right? It’s a direct line to attribution. It’s just tweaking what’s acceptable as far as your attribution window.

 

But when it comes to B2B work, that is much softer sometimes, and so you really need to rely, hopefully, on some analytics folks who can help you with UTM parameters and help you attribute that activity back to your channel. Because if you’re telling a story of success and you can’t tie it to revenue, I know over all of these years that those are the hardest stories to tell.

 

Scott Raven: Exactly. You know the old adage, I know half of my advertising is wasted, I just don’t know which half. But it’s based on, you know what, the better that you have attribution, the more that you can find, the more that you can do A/B testing, the more that you can improve your winner’s concepts over time.

 

But that’s actually something as we pivot to life in St. Croix a little bit that you had to develop your own concept of a winner’s concept for yourself, because as this business is burgeoning, something else is emerging, which is your daughter pursuing an international sailing career, and that required a pivot of yourself in terms of how you approached your holistic definition of freedom.

 

Permission to Think Differently

Perry Sheraw: Absolutely. I had to really let go of my, I had spent a lot of time developing like my perfect desktop setup. And I am, a lot of my work, as anyone in this industry knows, is so mental. And I had to release myself from the physical bounds of only being able to think in this one place with this absolute silence.

 

And so I did a three session training course for executives from the Airbnb in Portugal in August. And I was able to make that work perfectly. I think that people got a lot of value out of it, but I had to really give myself permission to be a successful thinker outside of my normal comfort zone.

 

Scott Raven: You know, within the Corvus paradigm of the Six Liberation Dimensions, we talk about this third one of operational independence. The test being, if you went away for two weeks, nothing would happen. You could completely check out, for lack of better term. And I think there’s a big difference between saying, I have systems, versus I trust my systems. What was it with you that allowed you to get to, I trust my systems?

 

Perry Sheraw: Whew. Yes, there were internal and external forces. Some great team members, some great protocols, the briefs, the campaign, the editorial calendars, the automation flow and general customer journey must haves and best practices. And being able to train my team on those, also document those, those were key.

 

But those were all external. And it was harder I think, to let go of the internal, and to trust the fact that my team could follow my instructions and even build on those to provide a better service than I might have provided, because they’re working harder than I was at that time.

 

So I think the real key there is just at some point, much like being a parent, at some point you just have to say, I have raised this as best I can and I have to let it go into the world now, and I have to focus on the things that will allow this whole business to grow even further.

 

Scott Raven: You know, so many founders, owners, entrepreneurs face this challenge in terms of that it was their blood, sweat, equity, genius, et cetera, that brings their firms to a certain level, but it’s exactly that that hinders them from pursuing those unspoken dreams of what do they really want as the next step. What did you find in your own journey that allowed you to start letting go?

 

Identity and the Send Button

Perry Sheraw: I definitely found that my belief that it was possible is what allowed me to start letting go. And you hear things about the five hour work week and some of those concepts. And I can remember thinking why am I hitting the send button?

 

Scott Raven: Right. Yep.

 

Perry Sheraw: I don’t know why I am hitting the send button. But another big part of it is ego, right? This can fly without me. And just telling yourself that your identity is not attached to the send button is a huge factor. And so that was overcoming that dependence on my identity being based in execution, I think was pretty much the core tenet of being able to let go.

 

Scott Raven: Is it that your identity was tied to execution or was it that your execution needed to be more distributed so that your execution could be aiding your daughter in terms of her sailing career? You also have a son, you’ve been writing a book, that the execution just needed to be more distributed across the things that you wanted.

 

Perry Sheraw: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. I needed to focus on the other goals in my life, and there was no compelling argument for staying focused on something that I can delegate and that could be done as well or better than me within my own organization.

 

And that allowed me to focus on making sure my daughter is successful in her sailing, making sure that, I mean, I also homeschool. And so having to coach through that, giving me time to do that, and then also developing lead generation for the business that I need to focus on.

 

Scott Raven: Now I’m sure that we have people who are listening to the podcast, their service advisories, et cetera, right? And they’re saying, this all sounds wonderful, but have you seen the number of hours that I have to put in with my client work and my client pipeline and I’ve made these commitments and there’s no, I’ve just got to grit through and hunker down.

 

What would you tell them in terms of, before you do that, let’s pause and think about this for a second?

 

Take a Two Week Vacation

Perry Sheraw: I would say, first of all, if you haven’t taken a solid two week vacation, you should, right? And when you’re on that two week vacation, focus on the things that you absolutely have to touch, and those will give you a really good idea of what you are essentially a part of and what you probably can’t delegate yet, but that would be what I would start with.

 

And there are tons of people, I’m sure you talk to them all the time, who don’t take two week vacations.

 

Scott Raven: Now they go, well it is because they know they are the bottleneck. And to what degree they are the bottleneck varies. But they know they are the bottleneck and they feel, like you said, almost an obligation hero ball in order to make sure that the machine runs, even if they have to personally sacrifice, which as you’re suggesting, that’s not a good trade off.

 

Perry Sheraw: No, definitely not. And as you talk about all the time, I mean the freedom, and the joy that comes from that freedom is something everyone should be able to experience. Especially if you’re working and running your own business.

 

Scott Raven: I agree. Now, you are also writing a book specifically with a message for young marketers. And marketing today is probably as complex as it’s ever been because we have such a wide range of generations that are in play from the boomers now down to Gen Z. And even within these classifications, there are distinctions. Early boomers are different from late boomers, early millennials are different from late millennials.

 

What are you saying in broad terms of how people coming into marketing with probably some of the most complex times that we’ve ever had can still stay consistent to that core concept of it’s about the conversation?

 

Perry Sheraw: Yeah, I think whatever channel you’re using, I mean, we talk about how revolutionary it is right now, but is it really? I mean, we went from print to digital. I went from picking up a police blotter at the police station to being the first person to have it emailed to me in the newsroom. I mean, that was pretty revolutionary.

 

And so I understand what you’re saying as far as how do we bridge some of these cross generational gaps and maintain this discussion. And it does go back to know your audience, stay helpful and stay relevant. Those tenets survive all of these changes and they always will.

 

Scott Raven: Right. Now, this is a small part of a broader movement that you are trying to create because ultimately businesses need to change the way they think about customer communication. What do you feel is the most important catalyst? Yes, you could say it’s the P&L, the P&L is always going to drive a lot of things, but what is that real catalyst that’s going to get them to start thinking and acting differently?

 

Perry Sheraw: I think it’s interesting right now with AI. Everyone wants to know how can AI improve my revenue? How can AI help me? How can AI do this? Well, it’s a double-edged sword because AI can spin up a lot of what they call the slop or hallucinations, some of those things.

 

So I think that it might just be a catalyst for folks to think about the questions they’re asking AI, not be intimidated by having to go find the data or be a perfect wordsmith to be able to come up with great messaging, but then also making sure that they read it and that it makes sense and that it does speak to who they think they’re trying to speak to. So I think that’s one avenue for that.

 

Scott Raven: No, I think it’s very relevant. I mean, there is an emerging science of prompt engineering that is gaining credibility and that companies are actually hiring for this. In terms of people who are really good in terms of carrying a conversation with AI, with the proper questions to reduce that variability in range in terms of what AI produces as a response.

 

But I think that this also is part of what you would say in terms of, yes, the emerging technology is going to be fantastic and going to do a lot of great things, but people are looking at it too much as focusing on the tech first versus saying, focusing on the conversation that is driven from the technology.

 

Perry Sheraw: That’s exactly right. I mean, we can go back to oral tradition. It’s still about the conversation, whether it was across a telephone, whether it was driven from key fields and a CRM that produced a more relevant email. All of these threads tied to being relevant and conversational, and I think that AI can supplement that, but you still have to know your audience and know exactly what can help them the most.

 

Scott Raven: I agree. So taking a look at the mentality of your journey, Cincinnati, St. Croix, Tanzania, et cetera. If you had to now say, what is the legacy that I hope that I have left through this incredibly unique journey, what would that be?

 

Legacy for Young Marketers

Perry Sheraw: Well, I hope that my book helps young marketers always maintain a vision, chart a course, and be brave enough to believe that they can achieve it. And so that would be my professional legacy. And of course, I hope that my children follow that exact same path.

 

Scott Raven: Right. Certainly your daughter is in terms of the pursuit of sailing career. I know your son also has his professional ambitions as well. In that vein, if you could go back to Cincinnati, hit the way back machine at Cincinnati, and be able to tell your younger self something via the wisdom that you have now, what would you tell your younger self?

 

Perry Sheraw: Do it the same, follow the same steps, but have less fear.

 

Scott Raven: I like that. Finally, as you are now taking that exact message and imparting it on your children, how are you positioning them for their pursuit of excellence without sacrificing life?

 

Perry Sheraw: Honestly, from the time that they were young, I spoke to them and always reminded myself that they’re humans. And I’ve always tried to have conversations with them, put the device down and fully listen to them. And tried to impart through those actions, I mean, it’s not perfect, right? But tried to impart through those actions that I value what they’re saying, what they’re thinking, that their capabilities are important and that they are meaningful human beings who can achieve their vision.

 

Scott Raven: Speaking of meaningful human beings who want to achieve their vision and want to learn more about you and Duma and how those may go hand in hand, tell us the details in terms of how they can get in contact with you.

 

Perry Sheraw: Sure. I have Duma, D-U-M-A-C-X dot com, and you can reach out to me through that website. You can also reach out to me through perrysheraw.com. And either one will work fine.

 

Scott Raven: All right. And we will make sure to put those into the show notes so that people can find the links very quickly.

 

Final Thoughts

Scott Raven: Perry, this has been a fantastic conversation. Any final thoughts before we close out this episode?

 

Perry Sheraw: You know, I just want to thank you for all of your thoughtful questions. And I love the fact that this conversation has crossed in and out of professional and personal discussions around freedom. It’s just, I think it’s really fantastic.

 

Scott Raven: Well, thank you. We aim here to ultimately judge this podcast by the impact that it creates, and we may never know the full impact, right? But even if it impacts one person in a positive manner, it’s done its job. I’m sure that will be the case with this episode. So, Perry, thank you so much.

 

Perry Sheraw: Thank you so much.

 

Scott Raven: To my listening audience, thank you so much for spending your time. As always, the aim is for you to reflect and determine how best to act on the wisdom that you have learned here. We invite you to subscribe to the podcast, leave us comments so that we can improve what we’re aiming for in terms of the impact, and also share this with people in your life who could use this wisdom.

 

Until next time, I’m Scott. We will see you on The Corvus Effect. Take care.

 

Outro

Scott Raven: Thank you for joining me on The Corvus Effect. If today’s conversation sparked ideas about how to free yourself from overwhelm, visit TheCorvusEffect.com for show notes, resources, and our free Sixth Dimensions Assessment, showing you exactly where you’re trapped and how to architect your freedom.

 

While you’re there, check out the Corvus Learning Platform, where we turn insights into implementation. If this episode helped you see a new path forward, please subscribe and share it with others who are ready to pursue their definition of professional freedom.

 

Join me next time as we continue exploring how to enhance your life through what you do professionally. It’s time to make that your reality!