Episode 166: Why Is My Spa Draining? Spa Leak vs. Check Valve Issue Explained!

In this episode of The Deep End Pool Podcast, Frank and Jacque broadcast from beautiful Waikiki while tackling a common pool owner headache: a draining spa. Is it a leak, or just a check valve failure? Learn how to diagnose the issue, understand the role of actuators, and avoid unnecessary water loss. Frank also shares tips on preventing costly freeze damage during winter. If you’ve noticed unexplained water loss, this episode is a must-listen! 🌊💦

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00:00 - Intro: Aloha from Waikiki! 🌴 Frank & Jacque kick off from the beach.
03:45 - Listener Question: Why is my spa draining down to the seats?
05:12 - First Suspect: Is it really a leak? How to tell.
07:30 - Check Valve Explained: What it is, how it works, and why it fails.
11:10 - Diverter Valve & Actuator: Another common cause of spa drainage.
14:25 - Water Loss Warning Signs: Why your chemicals won’t hold.
18:40 - Freeze Protection Issue: How cold weather can cause actuator failure.
22:50 - Quick Fix Tips: How to inspect and replace check valves.
26:05 - Preventative Maintenance: Save money and avoid damage.
30:20 - Product Shoutouts: Blu Ray XL, Cyclone Filter Tools & more.
34:10 - Wrap-Up: Final tips, sponsors, and contact info.

The Deep End Pool Podcast focuses on residential pool maintenance and may not cover commercial pool requirements. Please consult the CDC and local authorities and code requirements for commercial pool maintenance. Email us questions and show suggestions at deependfrank@gmail.com. visit our home page thedeependpoolpodcast.com 

Please give us a 5 star rating and a review, and contact us at deependfrank@gmail.com for questions and show ideas. Thank you

Poolwerx, BlueRay XL, Cyclone Filter Tools, Allsafe Pool Fence and Covers, Fluidra, and IPSSA

outro

Please give us a 5 star rating and a review, and contact us at deependfrank@gmail.com for questions and show ideas. Thank you

Please give us a 5 star rating and a review, and contact us at deependfrank@gmail.com for questions and show ideas. Thank you 

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Welcome to the deep end pool podcast for pool owners and the swimming pool service professional. All of our sponsors are brands that we know, trust and use in our own business. We are brought to you by pool works for healthy pool people. That's pool works.com pool W, E, R x.com, if there isn't a pool works near you, become the pool works near you. Special thanks to blu ray XL, the best pool mineral purification. System in the industry, Blu ray all day. Fluidra and their many brands, including candy pool equipment and Polaris the most advanced automatic pool cleaners in the industry, Cyclone filter tools, save time, save water and save your back all save pool, fence nets and pool covers over 25 years of providing the best equipment to secure pool areas, saving the lives of children and pet clear comfort a patented hydroxyl based water treatment system, the future of water treatment and our friends in IPSA, independent Pool and Spa Service Association, improving the industry through community education and support. The Deep End pool podcast focuses on residential pool maintenance and may not cover commercial pool commercial pool requirements, please consult the CDC and your local authorities and code requirements for commercial pool maintenance. Now let's solve some pool problems with your host, Frank and Jackie Disher. Aloha, y'all. Wacky key, the water is green. How much cooling? Looking at what they call the mountain over there, the one with the big hole in it, the crushed volcano, whatever it is, over at the end of the beach. Anyway, there's a big crush volcano over at the end of the beach here. Hey friends, you're listening to the event with Frank and Jackie his side kicking life and on the air. And we are, yes, we are on the beach in Waikiki, doing the Chilton head. It is, oh, that's, that is the crushed volcano. I was like, What are you talking about? Yes, we're right around Hilton Head. We're a little bit further down the beach, yeah, than we were last time. But yeah, so we're, we're at the Hilton Hawaiian Village, and it's just absolutely gorgeous. I mean, come on, it's Hawaii, so, I mean, you're not gonna get somebody go? Yeah, we're in Hawaii, and doesn't look good at all. There's not a bad place in the hole, yeah, the only, the only negative is, of course, the time change, all the things and of tired. So if I yawn, it's because of the time change. It's fine. Everything's fine, but it's absolutely beautiful here, having so much fun at the care craft meeting. And we, you know, are seeing all of our poll works, buds, and all of our, what, maybe he's eight, nine. Pool works, people here, yeah. And then our, um, your friend, John Sylvester. John Seville Sylvester, I know I want to go slow, but it's still, I know I want to say it differently, but anyway, yeah, what a great guy. He's a pool guy in Honolulu besides, I know, bless his heart, and God love it. He never, he flies, he flies in here all the freaking time, or he flies into DFW, recruit DFW all the time. He goes to Florida, see family a lot. Yeah, his poor family. I mean, if you probably got him 100 miles from a beach, they may just dry up and survive. That's what they that's what they Yeah, yeah. So God see him. I mean, we're just, we're just basking and all the stuff we hate to be away from our family. Lots going home, but lots going on back home in Texas. But, you know, it is what it is. We'll be back soon. Y'all, we get on a flight or flight home. Actually, it's overnight. Isn't overnight, which I kind of like, because the time change is going to work out, because we leave at night, but it's not really at night, but we leave at night very early. I just go to bed and just wake up and it's morning Texas too, but the flight coming, we leave in the morning and we just get back, like, or we land, like, four hours later. Yeah, we left, yeah. We left like, in the morning, yeah, because we went through like 15 time zones, right? We left in the morning, and then we got there, like early afternoon, 130 or something in the afternoon, and then the flight back is, I think it's a, it's a gonna be afternoon flight. And we land early in the morning on Sunday. No, we it's not afternoon. We leave it like eight o'clock at night. Okay, so for the love that's awesome. I love that. So it's my night, night time y'all already, even though my time zone. And then guess what? Spring Forward is about to come, so then we're gonna be that day. No, it is not that day. Oh my, but it's not far. That would be bad. It's like the second week in March, like the week after we fly back. Back, yeah, I put on the calendar. I can't remember now, I should have written it down. But anyway, that's crazy. Yeah, that's nuts, yeah. So anyway, yeah, I hope y'all are doing well. We've been, you know, suffering for Jesus on the beach, but it is at this so you had another listener question. We had a couple last week, and then we cut it short last week to get to that. Yeah, we didn't have time due to so we have another one in Texas, but he doesn't say where it is. It was Texas. Y'all throw a dart at it. I just Texas. Um, where do I want to go in Texas? I haven't been in a long time. You know where I want to go? Wimberly. I want to go to Wimberley. Wimberly Texas. Wimberly Texas. So that's down south by Austin. George chant kind of to that side. I love me some Wimberly. I haven't been there in a long time. It's a hill country. I think we may be getting a franchisee down there. I think we are. I think we do, I think. But I didn't throw that out just because of that, but, but, yeah, no, no, I was thinking about where I hadn't been in a long time, into in Texas. But, yeah, Texas is big y'all. It's like, going to another country. Yeah, it's like three other countries. Yeah, it's not like, oh, I live in New York, and I've been to all of the cities you can live in Texas and not have been to several places in years. So the sign coming in, I think, on I 10, it says, it tells you, like, how many hours to the next city? Like, it says it's I 10, so it's like, Houston, you know, hour and a half, two hours or whatever it is, says San Antonio, says like, six hours or seven hours, or whatever. And then it says El Paso, tomorrow, tomorrow. I mean, it's a lot. It's like 800 something. Listen, from where we are, Dallas, Fort Worth we couldn't drive in one day. No, it's closer to Chicago from for us than it is from here to El Paso that's going through like four. State is big, but we love it. We love it. Okay, so this is somewhere in Texas. We're going to go south. We're going to go down south. Um, so think about that. CB that's like the Canadian bacon. It's like, you know, everybody in the had CB radio. I mean, I wasn't alive of them, so I'm not going to try for a little bit. I used to have a CB CB radio. It's right before breaking one nine, breaking one night, yeah, right before I went into the Navy. And I was going to the Navy as a air traffic controller to go through the air traffic control school, because I'm now, I'm a retired FAA air traffic controller, but they called me sky boss, which made no sense anyway, all right, okay. CB in Texas says the spa on my pool, so it's a connected spa. It's not like a free standing the spa in my pool is draining down to the seats, oops. What should I be looking for to find the leak? Well, how do you know if it's first of all, how do you know if it's a leak? If it's a leak? How do you, I mean, do they even have a leak? How do they, I mean, answer the question, uh, I mean, it could be leak. It very well could be leak, but it's typically not. It's typically a check valve. A check valve, because typically, and without having all the details on the on the pool, in the hot tub and everything typically in Texas, gun out pools, and I'm assuming this is a gun out pool, the hot tubs typically sit up about 18 inches higher than the pool. Sometimes they can sit higher, sometimes they can be flush. But if this is a raised hot tub that sits higher than the pool, and the he's not running his pump at night. What can happen is the water pressure from the height in the hot tub with the system is off the water. If it has free flow back to the pole, it will in. The plumbing is tight. You don't you're not getting any air in the system, it will siphon the hot tub all the way down to pull level. So the water in the hot tub ends up being the same height, if you like. Could measure it, it's going to be the same height in the hot tub as it is the in the pool, because that water is siphoning down now, once it gets down to pool level, and if it stops there, that's most likely what's going on. And there should be check valves in place. If I don't know anything about pulls, if CB is like a like me, well, not me. I'm not one name like CB, but a single bomb, a single or if I don't know anything about pulls, this is my first pull. My first question for you is, what is the check valve? A check valve is a valve. It's tip. There's different styles. They can look like a just a where are they and what it means they be in line on the plumbing going to the hot tub, and they have a little flapper internally, and they're the. Typically these check valves are above ground level. Some of them are accessible. Some of them are not. Sometimes they look just like a Jamie valve, like those black Jamie valves at the handle zone that you can turn. Sometimes they look like that, except it's a clear plastic plate on it, instead of a black plastic plate with a diverter on it. It's a clear plastic plate, and it has a little flapper, spring loaded flapper internally. And when water is pushing one direction, it will open and allow water to flow through. But when the water is not pushing through, the spring, action of that spring closes it and seals it, and this check valve will have a gasket around that flapper. And what can happen? There's many things that can happen. One of them is that gasket can tear just from debris passing through it, something, something got in there, somehow, some way, and that that gasket that's supposed to do the ceiling on the flapper will tear and allow water to siphon back. And if it's sitting all night long, because you don't run your pump 24/7, you know, you just have a single speed pump or something, and you don't run your pump at night. Well, overnight that seeping back, it can easily drain two, 300 gallons backwards, back, and it come up into the plumbing, and go through the plumbing to the pool to seek level. It will just siphon it completely level. And then once the pressure is equal on both sides, it stops sucking, and it doesn't suck down below that point. That's one thing that can happen. Okay, all right. Another thing that can happen is on the diverter valves, especially if you have an actuator, because these actuators, in the winter, these actuators move back and forth between spa mode and pull mode, so they're going back and forth. And that actuator internally has a gasket on it, much like the gasket that's on that check valve on that little flapper door. All right, if that gasket tears, if you typically completely shut off the hot tub with that valve and that gaskets torn, it's going to do the same thing. The water is going to seek level, and it will get past that valve and return back to the pool. So if you measured it, if this is happening, if when you go to bed and the hot tub is completely full, if you mark this, the water level in the pool, and you wake up the next morning and your spa has gone down 18 inches, if it's going back to the pool, your pool would have raised. The water level in the pool would have raised with the addition of that water from the hot tub. And what can happen a lot of times if people, if they have an auto fill in their pool that keeps it full, as it can be all the time. And this happens, you end up actually losing a lot of water, because when the water in the hot tub drains back to the pool and raises the water in the pool, which you had at maximum level already, that extra quarter inch, half inch that you added to the pool will overflow the pool through your overflow drain, and you can actually lose water. So when the pump comes on and returns some water back to the hot tub to get it to where the hot tub overflows, well. Now your spot, your pool level is a little lower, so your autofill kicks on, and then you'll notice that all of a sudden, you can't keep chemicals. Your cya levels are dropping. If you have a salt pool, you can't keep salt in the pool. And that all can happen because of that that overflow in the pool from the spa going down, you fill the spa back up. Well. Now your water level is low in the pool, so if you have an auto fill, it automatically kicks in and adds water to the pool. So you're diluting, diluting, diluting, diluting, diluting. And you know, I never recommend people keep like their auto fill is adjusted to it's just right at the base of the overflow. I recommend you keep it about at least a half inch below, because when you do have splashing and stuff like that, or if you get a bit of extra water added, you don't just automatically wash it out. But still, if you all of a sudden, you just notice your chemistry. You know, you like service guys, we're not there in the morning. Yeah, you know, we may not get there till two o'clock every Tuesday. So we never see the pool first thing in the morning. So we never see the hot tub blow. And a lot of these people, they never even look at their pools after swim season. Some people don't look at their pools during during swim season, sure, but all of a sudden we notice, hey, we can't keep see. We Cya in this pool? Or, hey, all of a sudden we're having to add a lot of salt. Or, hey, our calcium levels are dropping, because all those will only really drop significantly if you're losing water, because they that's the only way to lower them, is to lower the water, or to change out the water. So a lot of. Because, you know, we'll tell people, Hey, you got a leak. You got a leak. Something's going on. We can't keep Cy in the pool or haven't had a lot of calcium or sea or salt or whatever. And come to find out, no, they don't have a leak. They're just draining back overnight, which is overflowing the pool, causing the overflow to remove water from the pool, then the autofill fills it back up. And to the client, it always looks normal. They look out there, the pool always looks full. They don't they don't notice any difference. But to the pool guy, if you're a good pool guy, ding, ding, ding, you should be telling clients if they have a leak, they shouldn't be telling you, hey, my water bill is $500 this month. What's going on? Yeah, you should, you should be like, you should be making note. Hey, your cya has dropped 20 parts per million in the last two weeks. That's a lot. Yeah, we haven't had any rain. There's something going on. We think you may have a leak or there's something going on. So pull Guys, guys, this makes you look like a hero. What do you mean? I got a leak? Yeah, you got a leak because I'm testing your chemicals. I'm doing my job, and I know what happens with chemicals, and what's happening to your pool right now is indication that you have a leak, or you're having a water exchange that shouldn't be happening, and you're diluting your pool water, so you're diluting your chemicals, which is costing us a lot more in chemicals. And I'm the world's greatest pool guy, and I don't want to waste those extra chemicals. So we need to find out what's going on. And once in a while, we'll find out it's because the hot tubs draining back Right, right? So we're gonna go to break and come back and talk about a few other things that could be going on with Okay, and the water is Green. Blu ray XL is the power of minerals working for you reduce your overall chemical costs and labor up to 50% guaranteed, whether you have 20 accounts or 20,000 blu ray XLS direct pricing and free shipping to the cool trade. Have you covered? Improving cool professionals profit and work life balance is what they do. Blu ray XL, the real mineral purifier. Visit them at blu ray xl.com, Blu ray all day. Do you want to stop the cycle of metal staining and keep your pool and spa stain free all year long? Do you want happy customers while saving time and money introducing periodic products. 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Their extensive portfolio of brands include some of the most trusted product lines in the industry, like Polaris, Jandy, zodiac, cover pools, grand effects, nature, two CMP, Dell Taylor and I Aqua link, so from the pool pad to the pool deck and everything in between, luidra has all your pool needs covered. Hey, Jackie, Hey, Frank. Have you ever wondered how you can clean between all those pesky filter pleats on a cartridge filter? Yeah, I lose sleep over it. I mean, it's so tedious and it takes forever, I could never seem to get them all clean. Well, here's a pro tip. Try the cyclone filter cleaner. It uses water pressure from your garden hose to spin the filter as you clean it. This allows all the filter pleats to get thoroughly cleaned out. And the best part is it is fast and doesn't hurt your back. Wow. The cyclone filter cleaner. You got it? The cyclone filter cleaner, you can thank me later. Thank and what I love about their filter cleaner is they have this wand. It's the best filter cleaning spray device I've ever used. We've tried many, many different ones. They got a short version now and they got a long version. But I love using those things, even on our de filters, we use their wands and do we have a code? We have a special discount code. If you go to cyclone filter tools.com and use code deep end, you'll save 10% on your order so you can buy direct from. Am great stuff. I'm glad I found it. We got one on every truck. My guys love it. Guys don't miss out on this. This is the best filter cleaning system out there. It seems to swim. Why should you brush? Hey friends, welcome back to the deep end. We're talking about some listener questions. And this was about a spa connected to a pool that was draining down, and where to, how do I find the leak? And so you were saying that it may not be a leak, it may not be, and some other things that it could be, yeah, you know, it's it cannot be a leak, but it could still be causing water loss, yeah, yeah. And all because of that draining back overflow. I feel like people, if they were losing water, I have a leak somewhere. And sometimes it's not, it's not that well, I've had people call, call out, call me out for leak detections, and come to find out, that's all it was, is they were losing water overnight. They noticed that, you know, they're going out there during the day, and they noticed their pulls down a half inch, and they're thinking, oh my gosh, you know, it was up to here yesterday. Today is down a half inch, and then the next day, oh my gosh, it's down another half inch, but yeah, or they fill it up the next day, it's down a half inch again. And and it doesn't necessarily mean there's a leak, but there is an issue that needs to be a test, all right. So something another direction I wanted to go with this, and I got called out on one of these right before we left for Hawaii. It's great customer of ours to be in landing hands. They're great. People bought a new house with a new pool. The whoever built this pool was didn't know what they were doing. It was a great pool. It is a beautiful pull, but there's just a lot of things. We set them up with Greg leshberg lesburg designs. Greg got them straightened out, put the autofill where it should be, because it has a giant vanishing edge on the pool. It's a beautiful pool. It really is, but but had a lot of issues. Well, we put an attendance system on for him, but he called me out. Said, Hey, my spas drained and we were having some cold weather, so that automatically clues me in. Okay, I know the freeze guards been kicking on, and so the spa is drained down. So I'm pretty confident I know what it is, so I head over there check it out. And sure enough, what it is is he has an actuator. He has an automation system. So he has actuators on his, you know, between the pool and spa side. Well, in freeze protection mode, these actuators will rotate between pull mode and spa mode. And then also, if you got waterfalls and stuff like that that have actuators on them. They those two will actuate back and forth, because you want to get water flowing through all the plumbing periodically, right? And you don't want anything to be sitting still for too long of a period. Well, on his pull. And I was very confident I knew what it was, and it was exactly what I thought it was going to be, the spa side actuator when it went from pull mode to spa mode. And when it does that, it means when you go to spa mode, you only suck from the spa, you only return to the spa. So when you're in pull mode, you only suck from the pull, but you return to the pull, and sometimes some to the spa, so the spa overflows. Well, what happens a lot, especially when we get these cold weather events, is you may, may get a little bit of ice build up on that actuator when it's turning back and forth. And what can happen is it can tear that gasket that we talked about, on the on like on the check valves, or on the actuators that will bleed by, or on the diverter valves that will bleed by. It can tear that actuator and cause it to bleed back a little bit, resulting in the spa just drains down a little bit. Or it can break that actuator. I see that actually, that's actually fairly common where these actuators, I see it two ways. One, it snaps the handle off the diverter valve, so the actuator turns and will close off, and then it'll turn and go back the other way. But it's not actually turning the valve. The valve broke, and it's just staying in the same position all the time. So with him, that would have meant that the it turned went to spa mode, and then when it went to turn back, the handle broke, and the actuator turned. Thought it was going back to spa mode, but it didn't. It just continued to suck from the spa, right? And if you're doing that, if you're sucking from the spa, but returning to the pool and the spa, the water level in the spa will go down and it will completely suck the spa dry over time. But on his what happened is just the actuator failed. It was an older actuator. Is a new control system, but they didn't get the old actuators works. There was no reason to replace the actuators, but this actuator did fail. Valve. It broke internally, and just stopped trying to move the valve so but it did it after it with the spa mode, and before it could come back, that's when it broke and it would not turn anymore. So he was continuously sucking from the spa, regardless of where he was returning the water. So it sucked his spa completely dry. Now he has a variable speed pump on his system. The variable speed pump just it would get hot, it would shut itself down. It would sense that it had no flow, had a pin tear variable speed, it would shut itself down, so it didn't burn itself up, so he didn't damage any equipment. Luckily, the temperatures only dropped to the mid 20s, and for a few hours, that's not You're not going to freeze and damage anything. So I don't, didn't damage this heater, didn't damage plumbing or filter or anything like that. But if that would have happened like we're in Hawaii right now, but we've, they've had really cold weather back there this week. Got into the teens. One day they did, I don't believe they got over above freezing. Yikes. So if it would happen during that time, he very well could have destroyed his heater, destroyed his plumbing, broke his filter, because those would was still had water locked up in them, even though his pump isn't moving any water, they would had water locked up in them, and that water could have froze and could have done a lot of damage. I mean, easily, 10, $12,000 worth of damage to his pull equipment. So there's different things that can happen to caught that cause a spa to drain down. Like I said, the first thing we talked about was, you know, just a bad check valve. We talked about what check valves are, but and, and one of the check valves I didn't talk about, and there's a few of them like this, I don't like using them because they're not accessible. It's just a big, like, swollen piece of pipe that has a check valve in it. You don't have any access to it. You don't have an access door where you can go in and fix the flap or anything. You have to re to fix that check valve. You have to cut plumbing and install a new check valve and plum it back in. Well, if you're if you have one of those and you end up having to fix it. Do not go back with that style check valve. Get a check valve that is accessible, that has screws that you could remove, or sometimes there's, there's ones out there now that have a twist top, like a big, like four inch round cap that you can twist off to access the flapper and actually replace the flapper without having to cut plumbing. Now there's ones. There's check valves that are Chem resistant, check valves that a lot of people will use behind Chlorinators, especially the rainbow Chlorinators, because I believe they used to come with them. Those are not accessible. They were chemical resistant, so sitting behind a chlorinator, they wouldn't rot or anything like that. But y'all these Jandy valves, and these are favorite people, the Aqua star flow star valves. Those valves are also chemical resistant. They're listed as chemical resistance. So those can also be used behind Chlorinators and y'all you always want behind any kind of anything that adds chemicals. You want a check valve because you don't want those chemicals to be able to back up into your other equipment. Because, like even an acid feeder, you don't you want a check valve behind an acid feeder, because you don't want that stuff to back up into your heater. You don't want chlorine to back up into your heater or even into your pump, because it will quickly rot out a shaft sill on a pump. And we've had many discussions on here about if you lose a shaft sill on a pump and you don't catch it quick enough that water coming out of that shafts Hill can run up in the motor and destroy that motor. And nowadays, and I believe, come September, you will not be able to get a replacement motor that is not variable speed, so you're going to have to spend a lot more money to replace that motor. But again, as we've discussed, y'all, you're so much better off with the variable speed. Yeah, yeah. Don't, don't, don't put any more money into your any if you have a single speed pump, don't put any more money into that. You really need to go variable speed and start take taking advantage of the savings that you get from a variable speed, sure. So I kind of took that full circle, just y'all. All I really wanted to talk about was a variable speed, pumps and borates. Let's talk about boring. No, we're not talking about boring. Not today, not today, friends, not today. Alright, well, y'all, that's, that's all we got today. I want to thank all of our sponsors. Yes, we're so thankful for you guys. We got fluidra, Blue Ray, Excel, Cyclone filter tools, pull works, see you later. I want to thank all you guys for for your sponsorship and supporting us. We it's greatly appreciated and and again, if, if I have a sponsor, y'all it's because I love them. Yeah, it's not just, you know, I will only let people that I use their products, I love their products, sponsor the show. So thank you all for listening. Make sure you check us out on social media. You can typically find us at searching at deep in Frank. You can email us at Deep End, frank@gmail.com frank@gmail.com and send us your questions, because we do this a couple times a year. Yep, that we do some questions. And next time we talk to y'all, we'll be back in boring old Texas. Man, oh my goodness. Hey, y'all take care. We'll talk to you say, have great week. Be sure to give us a five star rating and review on your favorite podcast platform and send us questions and topic suggestions to deepend frank@gmail.com that's deep end frank@gmail.com and also check out our home page at the deep endpool podcast.com for all of our podcasts and video content and links to our blogs and our sponsors and the products we know and trust. Also find us on Facebook, tick tock and YouTube by searching at deep and Frank. You.