Pool Myths, Black Algae, and the Grand Poobah – Rudy Stankowitz Returns!

Get ready for a deep dive into pool science, busted myths, and a whole lot of laughs! In Episode 176 of The Deep End Pool Podcast, Frank and Jacque welcome back industry legend, author, and pool chemistry guru Rudy Stankowitz. From haunted Greek mountains to haunted pool advice online, we tackle:

• Black algae = cyanobacteria?
• CYA and phosphate myths
• How to really treat stubborn pool algae
• Why your salt system might be misleading you
• The Grand Poobah’s mentorship mission!

Whether you're a pool pro or a curious pool owner, Rudy drops knowledge bombs you don’t want to miss. Plus, he’s got a new thriller out—and guess who makes a cameo? 👀

🎧 Subscribe, share, and follow us for more pool wisdom with a splash of humor!

00:00 - Intro & Guest Introduction  
02:51 - Virtual IPSSA Chapter & Grand Poobah  
03:15 - Haunted Mountain Story & Rudy’s Back Injury  
07:40 - Mentorship Award & Industry Leadership  
10:18 - Rudy’s New Thriller Book & Pool References  
11:40 - Algae Philosophy & Rudy’s Algae Book  
14:04 - Black Algae is Cyanobacteria  
14:30 - Understanding Biofilms & Toxins  
32:00 - Water Testing and Online Pool Classes  
23:13 - CYA Location Myth Debunked  
25:00 - One Scoop Fix Claims (Copper Sulfate Myth)  
26:55 - Algae Treatment: Keep Pumps Running    
28:50 - Using Alum for Black Algae  
39:40 - Phosphates Explained & Municipal Water
43:10 - Borates as an 
43:58 - Fake News: Acid and Alkalinity Myth
47:00 - Salt Systems and High CYA Strategy
50:00 - Salt Water vs Algae Growth
51:40 - Copper, Silver, and BlueRay XL  
52:58 - Adjusted Alkalinity & CYA Effect  
54:50 - Wrap-Up & Rudy’s Resources  

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The Deep End Pool Podcast focuses on residential pool maintenance and may not cover commercial pool requirements. Please consult the CDC and local authorities and code requirements for commercial pool maintenance.

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Transcript

Russel Ownens: 0:00

Welcome to the deep end pool podcast for pool owners and the swimming pool service professional. All of our sponsors are brands that we know, trust and use in our own business. We are brought to you by pool works for healthy pool people. That's pool works.com pool W, E, R x.com, if there isn't a pool works near you, become the pool works near you. Special thanks to blu ray XL, the best pool mineral purification. System in the industry, Blu ray all day. Fluidra and their many brands, including candy pool equipment and Polaris the most advanced automatic pool cleaners in the industry, Cyclone filter tools, save time, save water and save your back all save pool, fence nets and pool covers over 25 years of providing the best equipment to secure pool areas, saving the lives of children and pet clear comfort a patented hydroxyl based water treatment system, the future of water treatment and our friends in IPSA, independent Pool and Spa Service Association, improving the industry through community education and support. The Deep End pool podcast focuses on residential pool maintenance and may not cover commercial pool commercial pool requirements, please consult the CDC and your local authorities and code requirements for commercial pool maintenance. Now let's solve some pool problems with your host, Frank and Jackie Disher. Huge episode today. We got special guest Rudy stankowitz. We're gonna be talking about all kinds of things that you need to help manage your pools, we'll be talking about stabilizers, cyanuric acid, black algae, phosphates. We're going to be busting some myths, so stay tuned. We got some great things coming for you that can be valuable to you. Managing your pool, you

Unknown: 1:44

the pools are mess and the water is green, how much acid, how much chlorine you tested the water. But what does it mean? Take a dive into the deeper bubbles of muscle, and the water is green, how much acid, how much chlorine you tested

Frank Disher: 2:29

the water. Hey guys, it's Frank. And here on the deep end, special guest today, we got Rudy stankowitz, of many things I don't I'm not sure where all to start your I've been going, I've been going with Grand Poobah lately. Grand Poobah, I think it's all inclusive. So yeah, I do met, I've I started doing that virtual chapter for IPSA, and they were like, Okay, we're gonna call you president of the virtual IPSA chapter. Now I only do it if we can go with grand puba. So all things that refer to that virtual IPSA chapter has me listed as the Grand puba, and also has the name of the chapter as the cat five IPSA chapter. It's very Florida of me, well, and also a lot of people don't understand, realize that you are also a haunted mountain gymnast. I, um, well, I don't stick the landing. I remember Carrie back in the day. She nailed it on one foot, not me. I land. I tend to land on my back. So, okay, not really the best, the best move, but that's, you know, a lot of why I'm mostly in a wheelchair is because, in the words of my

Rudy Stankowitz: 3:38

middle grandchild, she says, no offense, but you do a lot of things an idiot would do. And I, I can't say that she's wrong, absolutely correct, so I do, well, that sounds like something my children would say to me, my grandkids, well, yeah, I got a couple grandkids that would say she's, she's, she's nine. So, yeah, no, well, see what Frank's referring to. So I'm going to give you the backstory on this. We went to Greece. We went to Athens. We alternate trips each year. My wife chooses one destination. I choose another. So she chose, chooses Greece, Italy, France, I chose Arctic Circle, Galapagos, islands, Transylvania, things like that. So we're in Greece, and we're seeing all the normal stuff in Greece, the Coliseum, and it's the Parthenon in Greece, right? The Pantheon is in Italy. So it's the Parthenon. We go to that and then somebody says, you know, if you go 600 meters up that mountain, there's a haunted cave. Well, shit, I gotta go up there. So we go up, we go up, we check out the cave, and I'm climbing around in there. It used to be headquarters for this pirate, de velis, back in the day, and their god Pan lived in there. And at one point it was taken over by NATO. And there's really pretty cool. So I'm leaving there, and they go, Well, you know, if you go up another 200 meters up the mountain, there's a. Abandoned Sanitarium. I thought, Well, I gotta go up there, right? So go up walking around, and there's all these letters all written on it and spray painted. I'm sure it all says, you know, something like, you're gonna die if you come in here. But it's all written in Greek, so I don't know what it says. So I was like, it's all Greek, do you? It's all Greek to me, I find a way in, and I think the group I'm with, they come in with me, right? I'm walking around. This is cool. We're ghost hunting. We're checking stuff out, like it's creepy. And I turn around and they were all smart enough not to follow me in. So now all of a sudden, I'm walking around in here and like ghosts aren't my big fear. I'm worried some crazed homeless guy is going to come yelling at Greek things at me. I'm not going to know what he's saying, or I'm going to run into a giant bear, or whatever they have anyway, I make it through unscathed. Silliest thing, we go up another 100 meters. Because I don't know if you've if you've been in the mountains of Greece, but the Greek Orthodox, they put little churches all over the place, like little just one two room churches for weary travelers, which is cool, because if it happened in the US, they'd be tagged and have spray painted things written all over them. But there are no people respected. But we go up to this one, and I come out and I see the swing set by this tree going back and forth by itself. I'm sure it's the wind, but anyway, I walk over to it. I'm standing on this slab of marble. All right, this is really cool. This is the mountain where they get all the marble from, for they built all their statues and but, you know, now I'm like, what 1000 meters up. You got to keep in mind now it's damp up there, so I'm on this slab of marble. My feet shoot out from under me, bam, square on my back, and I shoot right up from the shock of it, I just can't move. I can't move at all. So they get me over to this Jeep, and they get me back down the mountain. And my wife's like, you need to go to the hospital. You need to go to hospital. I'm like, No, we're only in Greece for so many days. I need to go to Santorini. So that's what I did. And on the way back, I stopped at a dock in the box and found out that I broke my neck. But that's no that's a typical script.

Frank Disher: 7:08

So how do you say 911, in Greek, you don't you say take me to Santorini, because you're only there for a week, and you don't want to spend three days in a friggin hospital. That's why I can see the hospital here in or in Florida, they're, they're just fine. I'm okay with those today. Today is one of those rare days you got, you got me, I got a lot of stuff going on right now. Yeah. No, you do? You do every time I see you posting something else, you another thing in the works. And congrats to you. And for anybody that doesn't know Rudy. Rudy is a mentor in the industry. You just received an award for your mentorship. From was it from Aqua? No, no, no, no, no, no. I created award, an award for mentorship. It mean, I'm not even eligible here. I decided that, you know, I look at all the different contests, and I look at all the different things out there, and I really have to be behind something in order to support it. And we were talking about it for a couple of years, and finally, I rolled it out. It's a mentorship award, because I think if I'm gonna promote something in this industry. It's going to be the one thing that is proven to make the industry better, and that is going to be to recognize those individuals that take on that role as mentor. So we set up a contest, not a contest, it's an award. We're going to if there's no voting, it's not how it goes. So you have to nominate your mentor at mentor award.com.

Rudy Stankowitz: 8:44

No, www. Dot just mentor award.com it's going to redirect you to a page on my website, which was cool, because that's where I can collect the information. And I'm doing this through the end of June, and then I am going to research the living daylights out of every individual that's been submitted. I've come up with a way to score based off of the different criteria, based off of promoting people, how they've helped people, how much they've helped people, what creative ways they use to help people, what role they play in the industry. That's a smaller portion, but still it's there, and just really going to grade it. And then in the fall, we're going to have 10 finalists, and we are going to pick one person who we name as mentor of the year. And instead of a trophy, we're going with a championship belt. I like it. I like it. That's

Frank Disher: 9:40

just be original. And how, how good would that look on the wall? Right? It looks dude around your waist, Frank, right? So I didn't want a People's Choice Award. I didn't want anything that was based off of how many, this and that and whatever, which is all cool. Those are great. Those are.

Unknown: 10:00

We need those. But I wanted this to be based off of, okay, what has this person actually done? Real merit, real merit. Yeah. So, right, well, so mentor award. Dot mentor award.com. Glad we got that out right in the beginning. Real quick, your new book is released, your blades of glass, a part two blades of glass. The second edition is released. It is available for purchase@amazon.com it is a psychological thriller. So it's not the normal pool manual or the algae book that you're used to. And I do have the sequel written. It's all done. I have beta readers reading it now. And in the sequel, there does happen to be a character whose name is Mr. Disher, who happens to wait run a pool store that offers service. No relation at all. Strictly coincidental. Um, I'm guessing he's the hero. He's the one that he plays a minor role, but, but he does do something pretty phenomenal in this so only something, only that you can only expect, worthy of a Mr. Disher, I think, but, but that's once my beta readers get back to me with their feedback, because I have my my endings very twisty, and I want to make sure that it hits. Then I'm gonna go and start to pitch literary agents and try to get that out there. I'm actually, I've already started on a third but I was like, I had a step away. I'm like, No, I need a break. I have to stop because my wife wants me to remodel the bathroom. But otherwise, that's the spackle on my hands, all right. And outside of thrillers, you also have your how to rid your pool of algae. Did I get the title right? How to Get Rid of I wanted to get rid of. I totally went straight for what I thought they would search for, how to get rid of swimming pool algae. That's the title of it. Yeah, smart, great book. I think I have a dozen copies now. You keep winning them. I make all my staff read it. Fantastic information, and there's a lot. You absorb a lot of other information other than just algae. You learn a lot of basic chemistry. You learn a lot. It's the whole school guide. It's a whole pool philosophy to keeping algae out. It's not just do this and this. It's no it's really, it's just a culture, I guess, to set the pool up so that you're not likely to see it in the first place. So we really don't have very as much about getting rid of it, if we do these things where we work with the science of water chemistry, instead of just throwing chemicals at it. 100% on board with that. And I use your book a lot of your teachings. I use in my teachings of in the podcast, to my guys, to clients. I go out to pool schools where people just bought a pool and they want to learn about their pool. I briefly go over and I'm not teaching people how to clean a filter. My main thing is teach people how not to kill themselves, and then you know how to simple things that need to be done on a weekly basis. Most of them end up on service anyway, or at least they're coming into my retail store and following our instructions versus, you know, just, I get really aggravated with the national groups when there's some guy in New York trying to tell somebody in Texas or Florida, you know, oh, no, you need to be doing this. When they got completely different construction methods, different water, different temperatures, different environments, and I think local instructions much better. I always encourage people to find somebody local to give you what goes on in your area. Because, like, I would South Florida, I'd be lost, man, so would I it's again, you're in North Florida, you're probably closer to what where I'm at, and similarities I would, I think so, yeah. But even with that, we know, you know, just from, you know, in 2018 I did a bunch of research on black algae and that. And thank you for that. You're welcome. That's helpful. You're welcome. That was very eye opening for me, because in looking at it and actually putting the stuff under a microscope, and I can't believe it, it was 2018 before it would get under a microscope and then be documented correctly. But in doing that, one of the big things I learned, not only was that black algae is really cyanobacteria, not only does black algae not have any roots, none whatsoever, but it's really what it is, is a cyanobacteria biofilm that the cyanobacteria secretes these polysaccharides, solutions and other things can take harbor within them, and the primary constituent is always cyanobacteria. But here's the big thing for me, is that I learned in taking these samples that the primary constituent. Patient that makes up that specific cyanobacteria can differ based upon geographic location in a distance as short as a mile. So in other words, black algae is always cyanobacteria, but the species or the genre of cyanobacteria could be different from your house to your neighbors. So to your point, what works in New York might not work in Texas. If I can get a difference in species of algae or cyanobacteria a mile from one pool to the next, imagine how vastly different that could be. And multiple in the same pool. Yeah, and and multiple combinations. I've had some three, some two, some one, some toxin producing some not some nitrogen fixing, which is pretty interesting, because if there's not enough nitrites in the water, the cyanobacteria, nostoc, for example, is one of them, can actually take atmospheric nitrogen and use that to bring it into the water, to use it for itself and also. Then, of course, obviously other things in the water can take advantage of it as well. But it's just goes to show how these things evolve. Is amazing. Cyanobacteria will be around long after we are. It was around long before us. It's actually cited as being the first source of oxygen on the planet, which makes it hard to kill. It's been around a while, and within the biofilm, there's many other things that may be existing, like cyanobacteria, normally cannot make you sick, but a lot of things that harbor within that biofilm, it bacterias and stuff and allergies, yes, and no. Some cyanobacteria, yeah, some, some, no, some, but some cyanobacteria, some of the stuff, like oscatoria, I took out of a swimming pool and I brought it down to cyano labs in Palatka, which is one of the leading cyano toxin research centers in the country. I brought it there. We got it under the microscope, we tested it, and it did indeed secrete Microsystems, which is a hepatoxin, which means it actually can destroy your liver. Of course, you'd have to take it in in a large quantity, and so that there's no fears if this does secrete these toxins, and you have a pool that maintains a decent chlorine level, it will oxidize the toxins as they're secreted, but it still can happen alone. If you eat it, it can still make you sick. And then there's other kinds, like spirulina, which is an oceanic cyanobacteria that people use in health foods. I ordered a smoothie the other night with it, to try it out, and bacteria. It was gross, but that's okay. Some people like to eat gross stuff, and I'm okay with that to each is on only, only Rudy's Are you? Are you going to come out with, like, a breakfast cereal, a cyano breakfast cereal, cyano puffs. There you go. I like but you're right, because check this out, and you guys see this a lot in Texas, well, not a lot, but you see it in Texas, nigelary Fowler, which is the brain eating amoeba. You don't get that in a pool that does not have black algae, really. It has to take harbor somewhere in order, so the chlorine doesn't kill it. And then if the chlorine level dips. It takes advantage. It sneaks out, it does its thing. And that's problematic. We talk a lot about Legionella. Legionella easily destroyed with a chlorine level of one part per million, unless it's in one of these cyanobacteria biofilms, in which case, then it might take 100 parts per million before it can actually break through those layers. It's kind of like a coral reef. Is what a biofilm is, and it provides harbor to all the little fish. So that way, when the shark swims by, they can hit little nooks and crannies that it can chill out in until it's safe. And I mean, obviously it doesn't decide it's spewing some out when it's not good for it. So the chlorine kills it, and then when the chlorine level dips, it spews some out then as well. But yeah, a lot of different things. Diatoms, which is mustard algae, can also take harbor in cyanobacteria. Biofilms, makes it much harder to kill. There is, yeah, there's, is just a lot that can happen, and it doesn't take a lot to really get in there to establish a foothold of anything. I appreciate that. Hey, we're going to go to break real quick, and we'll be right back. Do you want to stop the cycle of metal staining and keep your pool and spa stain free all year long? Do you want happy customers while saving time and money introducing periodic products See you later, metal eliminator and stain preventer? Your answer for metal free and stain free pools sequestering agents only 10. Rarely suspend metals See you later, removes and eliminates all stain causing metals like iron, copper, cobalt and manganese, and it changes color to identify the metals removed. Visit See you later.com, that's C, U, L, A, T, O, r.com, and use code deep end, 44 for a special discount. It's not magic, it's science. Do you want to stop the cycle of metal staining and keep your pool and spa stain free all year long? Do you want happy customers while saving time and money introducing periodic products See you later, metal eliminator and stain preventer? Your answer for metal free and stain free pools, sequestering agents only temporarily suspend metals See you later, removes and eliminates all stain causing metals like iron, copper, cobalt and manganese, and it changes color to identify the metals removed. Visit See you later.com, that's C, U, L, A, T, O, r.com, and use code Deep End 44 for a special discount. It's not magic, it's science. All right, we're back. I got the Rudy stinkowitz of CPO class.com, author Graham Poobah of the IPSA virtual chapter. If you're in the industry, and there's not an IPSA near you and but you're primarily east coast, midwest, uh, actually, the virtual chapter, chapter is going worldwide. Oh, sweet. So as long as there's not, I think as long as there's going to be the grand poobah, the worldwide chapter, yes, and as long as there's not a physical chapter within, I think it's 50 miles of you, then you're eligible to join the virtual chapter. Of course, anybody who wants to attend any of the meetings I have. I have them once a month, the third Wednesday of every month, at 7pm Eastern Time, anybody who's in any chapter or not in any chapter is welcome to attend. We do different types of education. It's more business acumen. Lift folks up, celebrate them. Elevate, educate and elevate. That's the goal. And I bring in speakers, not just from our industry, but across industries, who have the ability to contribute to those skills, to those lessons that we don't always get in the pool industry. You know, I always say the I think the biggest problem in the pool industry is people. There's fantastic pool people that are horrible business people, and that's what a lot of your guests teach on you know people, they don't know how to price, they don't know how to protect themselves. You do really good job. Thank you very much for this, teaching people how to satisfy or find your customers needs and wants and satisfy those and satisfy wants and needs they didn't realize they have, bring up the options, bring up the possibilities of other things they can do. And I want to thank you for that, because that's that's eye opening for a lot of people. Thank you. I want to move on to some stuff. Yeah, fake fake news. Okay, that fake news, all right. One is this came out the other day. If you want to lower your cya by draining your pool, you drain it from the top, because that's where your cya is concentrated. Okay, that's actually in our episode coming up. I've heard that it floats. I've heard people say that that's untrue. You'll get the same level throughout. It spreads throughout the water. It doesn't just float on the surface. I get the theory, if you seal off the top layer of water, then the sun can't penetrate it. But that's not what really happens. Cyanuric acid actually in water at night, I it's more free floating, but in the daylight, under UV, rays of the sun, it forms a much more stable bond with chlorine, so it stays attached a little bit longer, but realistically, it's just going from molecule to molecule to molecule in a very temporary bond. Releases, grabs another, releases, grabs another. It's kind of like if you were looking down on an atrium that had 100 people in it, and there were 50 umbrellas, and as people walked around, everybody was just handing off an umbrella to each other continuously. That's more along the lines of what this would look like, but it's all throughout the the body of water, not just the surface. Thank you for busting that myth. I I get a little aggravated when I hear a ridiculous myth. Some people think cya is like an layer of oil on top of the pool. That's not it at all. The only thing it's not free swimming to get to one location, it's it's just transferring randomly. The only thing we have that we use that's like that are those liquid solar covers. Yes, yes. Those are, those are very only at the top, but you're not. Gonna drain those now, let's see. Let's get on the Myth number two, a single scoop cures your pool. You know, I I decided after a little while, because it says I'm a I've been a pool Pro for a decade, and I've treated over 10 bazillion pools, and all I use is a single scoop of this. So I started to look the people up, you know, they only go three posts. They only have like, three pictures pasted on their bio. These are the same people that, you know, send Asian porn. That's what they are. Set up like you got the three different pictures of somebody on it. You know, somebody send your friend request. You click on it, you see, especially if you see friends in common. And I got to talk to some of those idiots who accept these friend requests, but then you go and you look at it, you're like, Okay, this is a made up site. Three pictures ago, they looked like somebody else, right? So it's the same thing. These only go back three or four pictures, not even more than a year. This person was created just specifically to be an expert. It's like a cartoon character. They're not real. They're just made up, and this is what they say. And no, the big danger in that, I believe that's a copper sulfate based product, is if you add a scoop a week of a copper and sulfate based product, and you're not testing the copper level in the water, eventually you will get to a point where your water levels are no longer considered safe to swim in because your copper level is so high, then you can get a pretty blue pool. It will be blue, oh yeah, the plaster will be blue. The your white plastic discussions and fittings that go on your return jets will be blue. Your hair will be green. That won't be blue, well, it's more of a turquoise. Is turquoise? A green or a blue? It's well, Statue of Liberty, greens, which is a blue, I guess I don't know. You promise no hard questions. It's early. One other thing, this came up in a group the other day. I sent this to you, and your response was, Well, that's a lot of words in a row. That was my thought. You can read the question. It's just, basically, it's, I had somebody in my DFW pull owner group, which were about to hit 10,000 members. I'm really, really excited about this. But somebody asked, Hey, how do you know? Hey, my pool is green. How do I treat it? And one person who I believe is from the industry, and it kind of shocked me, said, Well, you need to turn off your circulation system, because your chlorine works better when it's sitting still and it doesn't off gas. And then gave instructions on how, basically gave break point chlorination instructions on how that kills algae. But they were, those were even messed up, Rudy, it was a lot you're expert, expert advice. Should you turn your pump off if you're trying to treat algae. No, never. You want to run your pump. You want to run your pump more. I mean, it really. If I'm going to run it more than necessary, really depends on what type. If it's a planktonic algae, meaning free floating, then, yeah, I'm going to run my filter non stop until it's gone. Mustard algae, black algae. You know what? I'm not going to run it any less than I normally do, but I might not run it 24 and seven, but yeah, but I at no point in time unless I'm adding aluminum sulfate, letting it circulate for a couple of hours, then I shut that off, so that way I can form a successful flock, which then drops to the floor. I need it to be off, so that way the flock will drop. And that would be the only thing I could think of where I would and I've used that in to see how it works in with algae, specifically with black algae. And we've had some luck there, and I don't know why just yet and but I just have a few theories on it. But about 40% of the time I can, I can get the black algae to drop, but it's because of the alum, not because we stopped water with chlorine. It's because that's what I need to form. My flock in the algae is basically bonded with metals, the attractions and all that the ions, right? That's why it will drop. I think what it's attraction to the wall, yes, because it's the outer wall of the cell that controls its ability to stick to things, and the cell wall has a negative charge. And when I add aluminum sulfate to water, what I'm ending up with is aluminum and a plus three stage, a plus three charge of oxidation, which I believe I'm neutralizing the charge, which is then just causing it to fall off, because I've actually taken some and put it on a slide under a microscope, and I've injected what would be an equal amount in parts per million, of aluminum sulfate or aluminum to the solution to watch. And it doesn't seem to die as quickly as what we're seeing fall off the walls. So it has to be released. Okay, do you have any anything in writing, or anything anybody can access on the studies you've done on alum? I put a paper together and I put it on Research Gate. It's was a very quick thing that I did, and it is up there, but yeah, on Research gate.net, I do have probably one of the less scientifically written things that I have there, or that is there, but it is there, so yeah, I have that there, and that is, believe all encompassing. Otherwise, it's just things you share through social media. Have a bunch of stuff on my blog, I've shared things in different groups, and I've spoken on this topic a couple of different things, but I really did just want to get something together. So if I, when I say it's, it's hurried, it is a little hurried, I think, on balance though. Q, how's Kim skimmer and those folks out on your well, a little bit past you more in California, I think, I think they've actually built upon that, so they might have a little bit more. They maintain that journal of pool chemistry. Have you seen that before? I have seen it. I haven't dove into it, though I wouldn't be surprised if, if it ultimately ends up in there. And anybody that is in the industry, seriously, you're kind of missing the boat. If you're not following Rudy, get his books. You have Rudy the pool guy. Rudy, yeah, Rudy stank with pool guy on Facebook, yes. Otherwise, my handle everywhere except, well, it's mostly I'm it's at CPO class. That's my handle on almost everything social media. There's a couple of things where it wasn't available, but for the most part, I think I'm the majority of stuff. If you follow at CPO class, you'll find me. So yeah, if you're in the industry, you need to be following Rudy. There's a lot to be learned that only Rudy teaches. I don't hear it elsewhere unless somebody's just repeating Rudy. I repeat Rudy all the time. But if you're in the industry, you need to be hunting down Rudy and where his information is available. It really is. Now, if you're a pull owner, it's going to be over your head, trust me, not all of it, so not all of it, but some of it's over my head. Yeah, if you're an industry man, hunt down Rudy. And if you're a really, like your full owner that really wants to know, follow Rudy. Get his books. Good stuff. Check out good stuff. I have a site where I have some online classes. They're pre recorded. There's some that are free. There are some that are to fee. It's online pool classes.com. Onlinepool classes.com. I have a very good class on there that's free on water testing, but not just testing water on recognizing the interferences. Water tests the things that give you the goofy results, and then deciphering what those mean and what they can tell you about your pool, because they can really tell you a lot, and that I have on there as a free class, because I think if there's anything, everybody, everybody should, everybody should be able to to accurately analyze a Water Test. And there doesn't need to be a charge for that. That should just be open to everybody. So I have that they're free online.com, and kudos to that, because seriously, if you're not testing, well, you're dead in water, exactly. You can follow all the instructions on the planet, but if you're not testing so you can dose appropriately or take the proper action, then you're screwed. That's just all there is to there's a couple of key things, and that's one of the big ones. Yeah, that calculating gallonage. Okay, we can always add a little bit more, but you really if you're not testing to get accurate results, and you have to know whether they're accurate or not. And the thing is, there's some things that people tell you about all day long, like, for example, if your chlorine level is greater than 15 parts per million, the your pH test the phenol red that we use to test pH, that chemical can actually complex with the chloride, and what you get is this neat new chemical, or compound, chlorophenol red, which is still Used in science to test pH, but it tests a different, very different range, 4.4 to 6.6 and anything above 6.6 looking this brilliant dark purple color. But I can tell you, it's a brilliant dark purple all day long, and it's not really going to click until somebody shows you. And that's what I do in these classes, is I say, Hey, this is what happens. And here, this is what it looks like, so you can better recognize it when it happens. And no guessing, is this this, or is this that? No, this is what it looks like. Boom, I appreciate that. Hey, we're gonna go to break real quick, and we'll be right back. You. And the water is green. Hey, Jackie, Hey, Frank. Have you ever wondered how you can clean between all those pesky filter pleats on a cartridge filter? Yeah, I lose sleep over it. I mean, it's so tedious and it takes forever, I could never seem to get them all clean. Well, here's a pro tip. Try the cyclone filter cleaner. It uses water pressure from your garden hose to spin the filter as you clean it. This allows all the filter pleats to get thoroughly cleaned out. And the best part is it is fast and doesn't hurt your back. Wow. The cyclone filter cleaner. You got it? The cyclone filter cleaner, you can thank me later. Thank and what I love about their filter cleaner is they have this wand. It's the best filter cleaning spray device I've ever used. We've tried many, many different ones. They got a short version now, and they got a long version. But I love using those things, even on our de filters, we use their wands. And do we have a code? We have a special discount code. If you go to cyclone filter tools.com and use code deep end, we'll save 10% on your order so you can buy direct from them. Great stuff. I'm glad I found it. We got one on every truck. My guys love it. Guys don't miss out on this. This is the best filter cleaning system out there,

Russel Ownens: 36:28

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Unknown: 37:03

how much acid, how much chlorine you tested the water. But what does it mean? What kills out everybody? We're back with Rudy stankowitz of CPO class.com, and many, many, many other things. We've been talking about a lot of things, but I want to jump into phosphates a little bit. I want to surprise you with something you weren't expecting. First, I'm going to be really quick about it. Here we go. How many fingers I'm holding up? Three. That's exactly where the deep end podcast sits in relation to not all pool podcasts, but all podcasts on the planet. You are in the top 3% Oh, sweet. I looked those up this morning. Where'd I pick up the check from me? It's in the mail, right? That. Sorry, I mean, and I'm sure you're rated higher than I am, so kudos to you for your success. That's big stuff. What I talk about phosphates a little bit. I know there's a big push out there, especially in retail, where everybody you know sell phosphate remover cell phosphate remover, cell clarifier. So all this, I tend to be on the team of you know what chlorine is. Your best thing. Chlorine imbalanced water. That takes care of the vast majority of issues you're going to have. But my whole thing from Bob Lowery got this for him, and I think he even teach this is kill the algae faster than it multiplies. You win. It's pretty simple, but some things you can do is slow, how fast the algae can multiply, so it takes less to kill it faster than it multiplies and, and that's key. Well, phosphates is one of those things that people go to and, but people, oh my gosh, you tested 200 parts per billion on phosphates. Man, you need a phosphate remover. I mean, it doesn't hurt, but tell me a little bit about phosphates. Rudy, I like to say, I like to say phosphates aren't a problem until they are. Yes, so if you've tried everything else, and you have a phosphate level over 200 parts per billion is your example, then, okay, we'll look at it. But even at 500 parts per billion of phosphates, I really don't consider that to be a major issue. Now, much above that, then it can get a little bit interesting. But it doesn't mean you can't maintain the pool without adjusting those. It just means that, you know, maybe it would get a little bit easier. Now, if you have a salt water pool, that's a whole different scenario. We want to keep that number as well below 100 parts per billion as we can because phosphates like to coat things, and that's one of the primary reasons they're in the pool now, is because they like to coat things, because then. That a lot of people don't even realize that this has been happening, but ever since Flint, Michigan, where they decided to draw water from a natural body instead of treated water, and they eroded, corroded the inside of pipes sent led into people's homes, the country stood, sat up and took notice a lot of the municipalities, and they said, hey, you know what? We got a lot of lead plumbing underground too, so we could go in and pull that out, which would be super expensive job to do. Yeah, it would take a long time disrupt water supply for millions of folks forever in a day. Or we could add anti corrosion chemicals to the mix, and that's what they started to do. And the two primary anti corrosion chemicals they've been using are silicates and orthophosphate. And orthophosphate is exactly the direct phosphate that algae needs. Now, any other phosphates you add over the course of roughly two weeks at the chlorine level, at the chlorine levels we maintain in pools and pH and stuff is typical that'll become orthophosphate, but they're adding it directly to the water. And they're doing that because it coats the insides of the plot of the plumbing, but it does mean it's also coming in directly from the tap. So since Flint, Michigan, we are actively adding a lot more phosphate to water than we had been prior to that, right? And you will see spikes. Well, it's like, all of a sudden, you know, you've been maintaining this certain level of phosphates, and all sudden, see this huge spike. I mean, sometimes, like, over 2000 parts per billion. It's crazy. And then after you handle that, the phosphate issue, it's not coming, it's it goes away, kind of, no but, and you come back to normal, right? And you can pick and choose how you treat this in a body of water as well. You can go with a phosphate remover, if you want to. You can also go with a borate system like you use Frank, we spoke about that with adding borates to the water. Because it's just, it's it's a whole other it treats it differently. Borates not only serves as a buffer against an upward drifting pH, it does also serve as an algo stat, which does prevent algae. Algo stat, meaning prevents algae from growing doesn't kill it, but it does prevent it, so you have that other layer of protection there. So maybe the phosphates aren't as big of a deal, but if it gets to the point where you've tried everything, and I don't see a pool with a borate level in it ever getting to that point, maybe on a golf course, where the phosphate levels in the water might be 2000 parts per billion, plus, maybe then just simply, because, you know, it takes a lot of crap to keep the Greens green Franks, and they spray that stuff everywhere, and it gets in the water. In that scenario, I might worry more. But if you're taking care of your pool, fine, and you're not having issues, and you you're maintaining a good chlorine level. Really, you shouldn't have a lot of headaches, and if you do, then we grab the phosphate remover, yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong. But like with borates in relationship to algae, the whole killing their passion and multiplies, well, phosphate is algae food, correct? And the way I kind of look at it is when you have borates, when you're keeping borates at a certain level, then it doesn't matter if the food's there, the algae cannot consume the phosphate at the same rate. So it's like you put a muzzle on the algae, so even though the food's there, it's not able to eat it and use that to multiply. Yeah, I like that. That's a good analogy. That works. All right. Thank you. You're welcome. Hey, I hate it when I find out the analogy I've been using is stupid, but go to I, you know, and it happens to the it happens to the best of us. We were talking about fake news, you know, for I've been in the industry a long time, and you know what? There was a time where somebody taught me that I could lower my total alkalinity without affecting the pH, about how you pour a column of us. Yes, I was taught that in the early 90s. And you know, there was good bit of time there. Well, you know what? That's That's what so and so taught me. That must be the way that it is so back to fake news, back to fake news did not, no, you cannot, yeah, you always lower alkalinity and pH when you add acid, correct for either or correct, because the adding the acid takes carbon or the carbonates creates carbonic acid, which is lower in the carbonates, and the carbonic acid lowers pH, correct? So you cannot do one without the other. Another big fake news point. I love teaching people that, because a lot of times they're like, no, no, yeah, yeah. That's, that's, that's science. It depends on, it depends on the room. It really does. You know who believes that to be true? More than any other group of folks is people, and I hate to I find more. No one in the IPSA group believes this. No IPSA person believes this. So that's Oh, thankfully, due to the training program that they have to go through. And I know who wrote that, and so do you That was Bob Lowery's training that wrote the IPSA. I have a signed copy there, the basic training IPSA and but great book, by the way, outside of that, not really any other industry except for pool service professionals. And it's not everybody, but it's a good chunk. And people like to hang on to these, these myths or things that they were taught early on with a death grip. And the reality of it is, is, you know, we have such better technology nowadays to actually look at things and see what we're doing that. Yeah, you know what? Folks might have thought that 3040, 50 years ago. But here's the evidence, and here's what we're looking at right now. And if you break it down chemically, like you just said, muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid. It's HCl. When you put that into water, it dissociates, what you get is a hydrogen ion, and you get chloride. So, yeah, we do actually add chlorides to the water with every dose of acid. But that hydrogen ion pH is the measurement of hydrogen ion activity in a body of water. It's measured in the converse so the lower the pH, the greater that activity, the higher the pH, the less the activity. But that's what it is. You can't add hydrogen ions without affecting that. It's impossible to add more hydrogen ions without effect. That would be like me saying, Hey, Frank, you know what? I'm going to put more money in your bank account, but it's not going to affect the balance. Stay right where it is. You just feel good knowing I'm putting more in there, but don't expect to see it on paper. That sounds like Texas. I know your time is limited. I got one more point I would like you to address. When you fall on mountains, you have to go to doctors. That's just all there is to it. A lot of our you know Seaway, we know that more seaway there is in the water, the more chlorine it takes to accomplish what you need to accomplish to kill algae faster than it can multiply A lot of these salt manufacturers. And maybe you can help me wrap my head around this theory, or confirm this theory for me, like they Oh, you know, you need to run higher cyas When you have a salt system. And I am theorizing just because the way my head works, they say that, so people will stop calling in and complaining, saying that they have no chlorine in their pool and they have the salt system. Well, if you have higher Cy you are going to be able to hold chlorine better, but it's less effective. So to stop their complaints that they're not producing enough salt because a salt system is a very slow process of creating chlorine that they want the higher cya so they can say C it works, there is chlorine in the water, even though the chlorine is less effective that, yes, that's absolutely true, and a part of that is that they're woefully undersized. To a certain extent. If you have a salt cell that it says it's good for a pool that's up to 25,000 gallons, and you put that on a 20 to 25,000 gallon pool, that is good, and that'll hit the target chlorine level, as long as you don't really have any other problems, like people getting in, things like that. So it's kind of like, it's like swimmers, yeah, those, if you like swimmers in your pool, or sunlight, or things like that. So remember back in the day Toys R Us, when they used to be a thing, and they carried the little three foot by 12 in text pools, and it came with that little filter system, system that we like to, you know, laugh at, but realistically, that filter system was sized to that pool perfectly, just not not with those couldn't affect couldn't not a drop more. Not a chemical problem, not a phosphate, not wind, not leaves, not sand, not dirt, not people, but it was sized to that amount of water, and in a lab, that would work great. And that's what we have here. So we have this salt system that's struggling to keep up in the first place, because we really should have the next size cell on that system. And if you do that, then the headaches are reduced greatly. Even the amount of acid you use would be reduced greatly, because you're not running it as a highest percentage to try to keep up. But right now, basically you have something that's struggling to keep up, and here comes sunlight. So okay, that's a problem. So how do we make the sunlight go away? Well, we add more cyanuric acid and now look, it's not struggling to keep up. It's not as effective, like you said. So then the question comes up, well, why don't I get algae as easily in a salt water pool as I do in a traditionally treated pool with the traditional means of chlorine tablets, granule liquid? Whatever. Why doesn't that happen? And that's simple, also, because freshwater algae doesn't like to grow in salt water. And basically brackish water is 1200 parts per million. That's where that starts at. So around 16 to 1800 parts per million, green algae starts to have trouble getting established. Around 18 to 2000 mustard algae will have trouble starting to get established, and around 2400 parts per million black algae even will have it doesn't mean it's not going to happen. It doesn't mean it can't happen. Just means it's harder for to get a foothold. But saltwater pools are starting out at 3000 parts per million right off the bat. So yeah, it's like another preventative measure against algae, but they've found criteria in the Dead Sea. So, so it's, it's like, borates in the water, salt, yeah, there's a good reason not to have a high CoA, yeah, yeah. But it's, it's a good idea not to have to a cyanotic acid level too much higher than the percentage of chlorine level that we've talked about. And it's like, I think there, it's 5% is what they're saying now, is, is fine. It used to be seven and a half percent, but now they're saying five. I like seven and a half. Yeah, seven and a half meaning that if you have 100 parts, right, if chlorine levels seven and a half percent of your cyanuric acid level. So if you have 100 part per million of CYA, then you want a 7.5 PPM chlorine level. And obviously we want numbers much, much lower than that. That's just for easy math, yeah. And when we do borates, we'll drop it to five. We'll accept five, and then, then, if we have a difficult to manage bull, we'll use blu ray Excel, which even allows us to go a little bit lower, if we wish, but we don't want to go below that level where we're not killing pathogens and stuff like that. So we got and that's another one of those things too. When we're looking at phosphates, we can roll back to the go back to the phosphate levels from there, copper sulfate, Blu Ray, XL, the trifecta, copper, silver, zinc, right there. And there's a we could have a whole episode so on how that works, maybe for another date. But yeah, if you're using you can go that route instead of borates. You can go borates instead of phosphate removers, or you can use any combination of the three, and it just gives you better protection. And is there a reason why? You know the world is changing toward sustainability, with Gen Z becoming the primary pool owner in this country. They're not now, but they're heading that way because, you know, we're aging out, and younger folks coming in, and sustainability and eco friendly is important, and that's where a lot of these chemicals like boric acid and phosphate removers and copper sulfate, we're gonna come in because they are considered to be more eco friendly. So and a simple scoop, God, but anyway, one last thing I want to say about cynic acid before you gotta run the big, big problem? Yes, you know what science chlorine lock. You can always add more chlorine and it's going to work. So let's wipe that off the table. But the big problem with a high cyanoric acid level is that people don't take it into consideration when looking at their total alkalinity, the contribution to total alkalinity when they're calculating their saturation index. So there's a lot of times where folks think that they're dealing with something that's not corrosive when it actually is. So we have to, we have to account for the contribution of cyanuric acid to total alkalinity, because that test picks up carbon it's bicarbonates, hydroxides and cyanurates, if they're used, and we don't want those in our number so, yes, so you need to have the adjusted alkalinity. That's big. That's the biggest problem I see with cyanuric acid, is that people just they don't take it into consideration, and they end up with corrosive body of water. And then when their pool is etched. They wonder, what the heck happened? I've done a lot of pulls after I did all the calculations. They thought they were balanced and they had a alkalinity of like 10 or 20. It can happen if you have a if you have a total alkalinity of 60, which we sometimes recommend, if you have an upward drifting pH, because at 60 parts per million total alkalinity, CO two actually dissolves in water easier, so it's harder to make it out gas. So that's not an uncommon use number, used especially if we have fountains or any form of turbulence or whatever. So if we keep that at 60, but then we have and again, we'll make the math easy. We have a cynic acid level of 90, that means that our 60 part per million total alkalinity is really 30, yep. And that's where it gets scary. Rudy, hey, I know you got to run, bud. It's always an honor to have you on the show, and I appreciate everything you do. For the industry, CPO class, com, CPO class, talking pools, is this podcast? I did not mention your podcast, fantastic podcast, and you got a whole team doing podcasts Monday through Friday. Yeah. You hit it from a lot of different angles with, you know, from the business side, you know, got Ivan, all these different things going on. Appreciate your time, and we'll see you. We'll see you down the road, bud. All right, thank you, Frank. Thank you for having me. Thank you everybody for listening. All right, and y'all, y'all, y'all, need to consider this an honor. You got to hear Rudy talk about some stuff, so we'll talk to y'all soon. You and the water is green,

Russel Ownens: 55:57

be sure to give us a five star rating and review on your favorite podcast platform, and send us questions and topic suggestions to deepend frank@gmail.com that's deep end frank@gmail.com and also check out our home page at the deep endpool podcast.com for all of our podcasts and video content and links to our blogs and our sponsors and the products we know and trust. Also find us on Facebook, Tiktok and YouTube by searching at deep and Frank. You.