The Story That Never Made Sense (part 1)

In November 2012, what looked like a messy breakup in Omaha, Nebraska slowly grew into one of the strangest digital stalking cases investigators had ever seen.

At first, it appeared to be a story about jealousy. A woman who had recently dated a man suddenly began sending threatening messages. The texts escalated, the accusations spread, and people close to the situation found themselves dragged into a growing storm of harassment.

For years, the people closest to the case struggle to understand what really happened. But as investigators begin looking closer, the story everyone believed starts to fall apart.

This is one of the most baffling cases we have ever covered, it truly will have you guessing till the very end. We've kept the description vague because we don't want to give anything away in this messy, chaotic, unbelievable story. This is part one of two, there is too much to unpack for just one episode. Thank you as always for listening!

To see more about this case, as well as the sources used to create this episode, visit our Blog Here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hi, welcome to Crying Clueless. We're your hosts. I'm Jenna and I'm Lara. This story I have for you today is a wild ride. It is going to be a two-parter because as much as I tried to put it all into one, there's too much. It's too much. So we're going to split it into two parts and not leave anything out. Sounds very interesting already. All right. Now there are some stories that start with a scream. This one starts with a text message. Not a dramatic one, not even a threatening one, just a text. The kind that people send every day that said, maybe we should move in together. That's it. And if you didn't know what came after, it might seem like any other relationship moving to the next level. But that's the thing about this case. If you walked into it at the beginning, if you just looked at it from the outside, it didn't look dangerous. It didn't look violent. It didn't look like the beginning of anything catastrophic. It looked like modern dating. Casual, messy, complicated, a little dramatic, normal. And that's what makes this one so unsettling because nothing about the beginning prepares you for how far it goes.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

That already sounds super interesting. Starting with a text message.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah, it sounds so small, but small is exactly where it begins. We're starting in late summer 2012 in Omaha, Nebraska. Dave Krupa is in his 30s. He's recently out of a long-term relationship. They had been together for about 12 years. They had two children. It was amicable. They wanted different things in life, but they were still on good terms. Dave and Amy, who's the name of his ex, were sharing custody of their kids. Dave was working long hours. He managed an auto repair shop. His life had structure, work during the day, kids when he had them, quiet evenings when he didn't. And after the end of a serious long-term relationship, he wasn't looking to jump straight back into another one. Now, Dave wasn't anti-dating. He just wasn't interested in anything heavy. He started dating casually and intentionally casual. Dave was very clear with himself and with anyone he met that he did not want a serious relationship. Dave was always upfront about that. Friends would later say that he was almost blunt about it. No moving in, no meeting the kids, no long-term expectations, no commitment. He liked companionship. He liked connections. But for a while, he wanted to keep it light. He did not want chaos. He wanted dinner, movies, hanging out, maybe spending the night sometimes, but nothing that moved towards merging lives. And in 2012, that kind of casual dating was super normal. Apps and websites made it easy. People met quickly. Conversations started fast. Relationships sometimes lasted a few weeks or a few months and then faded out. And Dave wasn't hiding anything. If someone wanted something serious, he would let them know he wasn't that guy.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

I'm already hearing man who wants zero drama, just trying to have fun. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

And what he wanted. Yes. And to be fair, he communicated that he wasn't playing the I just need time game. He would tell women up front, I'm not looking for commitment. One of the first women he started dating was Liz Olyar. She was a single mom. She also lived in Omaha. She was running her own cleaning business. She was energetic, talkative. Some say that she would talk too quickly when she was excited about something. She was expressive. She had the kind of personality that fills a room quickly. They met on a dating site in summer of 2012. The connection happened quickly. They had a lot in common on paper, both single parents, both busy, both used to juggling work and family. In the beginning, it worked. They meet for dinner sometimes. Occasionally she'd come over to his apartment, either on nights he didn't have the kids or after they were asleep. Liz lived close by to Dave's place, which made things convenient. If one of them had an early morning or something with work the next day, it was easy to just hang out for a little bit. Nothing about the relationship suggested permanence, no promises, no labels, just two adults going on dates or seeing each other when it worked.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Is that what she wanted too? Was she telling him she wanted that same casual relationship?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah, at first. At first, there's no evidence that she pushed for anything serious because Dave was upfront about that. He made it clear he wasn't looking for a girlfriend, and she told him, Yeah, that's fine. I have my own busy life. I have a lot going on. And everything stayed comfortably in that casual lane. In early October 2012, a woman brought her Black Ford Explorer into the auto shop that Dave managed for something minor. Dave helped her. He found her beautiful and charming, but he didn't think it was an appropriate decision to ask out a customer. So even though he would like to date her, he just did the repair and sent her on her way. She paid, she left. Dave went back to business as usual. Shortly after she came in, Dave was flipping through his dating app. And who does he spot? The woman who had brought in her car. Dave sends a short message, said, Hey, I know you. She responds. They message back and forth for a bit, and Dave builds a connection. Her name is Carrie Barber. She's 37 years old from Macedonia, Iowa, a small town that's about 40 minutes away from Omaha. She's a single mom, too. She had a teenage son. She worked in tech. She was a web developer, somebody who spent most of her days building, maintaining websites, solving problems in code. And she dealt with a lot of clients remotely. She was smart, independent, practical, the kind of woman who fixes things herself whenever she can. Just a week or two after they had connected on the dating website, she showed up in the shop again. And Dave decides, you know, now we've already had some prior conversations. This isn't the same awkward asking out a customer that I've just met as it would have been the first time. And he decides not to let the opportunity pass. He asked her to dinner and she agrees. Their first date is October 29th. They meet up at Applebee's for dinner. The two talked, they got to know each other. Dave really enjoyed her companionship. He had said that he was really interested in literature and current events. And one thing about Liz was she wasn't all that interested in that. So their conversations weren't as stimulating as this very first conversation was with Carrie.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

And is he still seeing Liz at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah, they're still casual.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Does she know that he's dating more than one person? Is that kind of how they're open? Did he let her know that from the beginning that it wasn't just her? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yes, that was his no commitment thing, not just that I want to date you and only you, but not have labels. It was I want to continue dating and meeting new people.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Their dinner conversation was great, but some point during that dinner, Dave's phone begins to light up and then it keeps lighting up. He's getting calls, texts, more calls. They were coming from Liz. Dave initially tried to ignore it. He didn't want to be rude in the middle of a first date, but they kept coming until it felt impossible to pretend that it wasn't happening. So eventually Dave stepped outside and contacted Liz. He told her he was on a date and he couldn't respond right now.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

This already doesn't sound good. Like a jealous, very jealous situation despite having that upfront conversation.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Well, Liz had left something that she really needed at Dave's apartment. And she had been contacting him because she wanted to come over and get it. She didn't want to show up unannounced. And whatever it was, she really needed to grab it that night. Okay. So once dinner was finished, Dave and Carrie decided to continue the evening and they head back to Dave's apartment, which was nearby. Almost immediately after Dave and Carrie arrived at the apartment, the doorbell for the building's security entrance started ringing. When Dave checked the security door, he realized that it was Liz. She was standing outside. She was visibly upset. Dave went down to talk to her, like, what's going on? She was crying and insisted that she needed to come get whatever this was that was inside. Dave hesitated. He felt like this was awkward in the middle of a first date. Another woman he was dating showing up. Yeah. Uh-huh. He went back upstairs and just bluntly told Carrie what was happening. After hearing Carrie was like, No, that's fine. You know, I have a 40-minute drive anyways, back home. So I'll leave and she can come in and get whatever she needs. Carrie gathers her things and headed towards the exit. She passed Liz, who was standing near the security door waiting to be let in. Carrie got in her explorer and drove away. Once Carrie had left, Dave let Liz in. She got what she needed. She said she was sorry. She still seemed visibly upset about the situation and she didn't stay long. After grabbing what she needed, she headed out too. Now the apartment's quiet again. Not long after Liz left. Dave is still thinking about Carrie. He called her. They spoke on the phone. Despite the awkwardness that had happened, Carrie knew that he was dating other women. This was just a first date, but they had been having a good evening. So she invited him to her home in Macedonia. He went and he spent the night there. It's a long drive. It's late. At that time, it likely felt like a strange but inconvenient event that interrupted their first date but didn't have a lasting impact. Dave found that he really enjoyed Carrie's presence and getting to know her. Carrie wasn't loud or flashy. She was quiet, analytical, direct. There was something about her that just really stood out to Dave. Also, he got the feeling that she wasn't particularly impressed or trying to charm him, which intrigued him. They started seeing each other more and more. He's not exclusive with Carrie, just like he hasn't been exclusive with anybody he's dated since his relationship had ended. Carrie also felt the same. She was busy, she had a lot going on with work, and her son, she wasn't looking for anything beyond casual.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

So they all had the same understanding. We're all casual, we're seeing other people. Right. We're just supposedly they all feel the same.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yes. Supposedly they do.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

At least the words, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

At least the words are said. Yes. Dave and Carrie would meet for dinner after work. Sometimes they'd watch a movie at his apartment. Sometimes they just talked. What stood out to him was that her personality felt very different from Liz's, which is one of the reasons he wanted to date around. He had been with Amy for a long time. And I think having been together for so long, he wasn't sure what he was even looking for in a partner. He wanted to see all the differences. The relationship between Carrie and Dave moved quickly into that comfortable phase that people sometimes reach when they just really enjoy each other's company. She would stay over occasionally, and that was because of geography. Now, Carrie lived 40 minutes away, but her job was only a few blocks from Dave's apartment. So if they had dinner late or they stayed up watching a movie, sometimes it just made sense for her to sleep there and have a one-minute commute to work instead of 40 to 45 to an hour with traffic. Carrie wasn't bringing luggage or leaving things. It was convenience.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah. Was he dating anyone else or just those two?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

At this time, so from the end of October till early November, it was just those two. He had just barely started dating Carrie, and two was enough, I guess, to keep you busy when you also have a full-time job and kids and kids who you're not letting meet women.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Yeah. You know, you're trying to keep that separate. Two is already a lot, probably.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yes. And to his kids, he wanted to give them his full attention when he was with them. And neither of the two believed that they were in a committed relationship with him. And for a few weeks, the situation stayed balanced, two separate dating relationships. Carrie had a really big, intense project coming up at work that she mentioned today. Carrie wanted to let him know that if she didn't answer during this second week of November, it wasn't because she didn't want to talk to him. She was really enjoying getting to know him and the time they spent together. It was just because she expected to have really early mornings, late nights. All that week was going to be devoted to work. So she didn't want him to think she was ghosting him or something. Exactly. It's a new relationship and it could probably easily look like she wasn't interested anymore. Dave is a kind guy and told her, you know, if you want to spend a night or two or you want to spend the week at my apartment during this really intense, busy project, you're more than welcome. Then you don't have to drive early and late. It's no big deal. Carrie decided to take him up on the offer. She was enjoying their brand new romance and it would make her project easier to manage. Plus, during that time, she wouldn't be at the apartment much, anyways. Carrie arranged for her teen son to stay with her parents that week. She packed a few things that would get her through the week and headed to Dave's. The project started on Monday, November 12th. Carrie went in early and stayed till 9 p.m. that night. The next day, November 13th, Dave left as usual at 6.20 to go into work, said bye to Carrie, who was up working on her computer by 6.15. I mean, when we say long days, she wasn't kidding. She was spending 12, 14, 15 hours on this project a day. Dave was focused on his busy day at work when he gets a text around 10 a.m. from Carrie. The message was short. It said, maybe we should move in together.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Kind of feels like a big leap from I'm dating multiple people and we're just casual to living together. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Dave thought so too. He was completely caught off guard. He really thought that they were on the same page. And they'd only been dating a couple weeks, barely over two weeks at this point. He oh wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

I didn't realize that was that short.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

It was really fast. He wonders if inviting her to stay for the week was a huge mistake.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

How did he respond? That must have been really awkward and confusing, especially since he invited her to stay for the week and it's only day two.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

What do you do next?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Right for the rest of the week. He is honest though, and he responds that he doesn't think it's a good idea. He keeps it simple.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Is she upset by this? It does seem fast. It's only been two weeks, and she has a child who has a life really in another state.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

That's really a big jump there. It only took about 20 seconds for Dave to find out. His phone dinged with a new text from Carrie. The response that came back was not what he expected. It said, Fine, F you. Then another came through. I'm seeing somebody else. Don't contact me again. And then another, I hate you, go away. The tone shift was fast. The messages were not what Dave would have ever expected to receive from Carrie. Yeah, that escalated really fast. Yeah, it did. Dave was completely blindsided and disappointed too. He had enjoyed getting to know Carrie, and now he was seeing a completely different side to her. He goes back to work. He tells some of his coworkers about what just happened. They share some of their own crazy dating experiences or bad dating experiences. When he finished work later that day and headed back to the apartment, he notices that Carrie's car isn't there, which is not unusual. She was probably still at work. She'd worked till nine the night before. But when he goes inside, he can tell right away Carrie's things are gone. The clothes she had brought, the personal items, everything. It looked like she had packed up and left, which, you know, could mean she got upset and decided to end things. I guess people storm out of relationships all the time.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

So she was really angry then with her long work day. She must have been mad enough to come home in the middle of her day to clear out all her things, too, and leave.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Yeah, good point. Because this project was taking all of her attention. So to go clear out before Dave got home feels real mad.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Real angry.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Real angry. Dave's first instinct is a little bit of irritation and confusion about those wild messages. And then honestly, a little bit of relief because from his perspective, he met someone. It was hot and fast. And then two weeks, it turned into this dramatic text explosion. He is thinking what a lot of us might think. Okay, I dodged a bullet there. Moving on.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah, I can imagine he's thinking he is glad he found out now in not what a month or two or further into the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Oh, absolutely. Life continues as normal for a few days. Dave goes to work, spends time with his kids. He keeps busy. He doesn't hear from Carrie for a few days, which probably not all that surprising. Is he still seeing Liz at this time? Yes. Okay. A few days later, his phone buzzes and it's a text from Carrie. And then all of a sudden, he's getting hammered with texts. Rapid succession. Carrie is obviously furious with him. At first, he ignores the messages, but they don't slow down. Sometimes she would call. Dave didn't answer. That's this toxicity that no one needs. But ignoring them doesn't stop them. They start to show up at inconvenient times when he's working, when he's trying to spend time with his kids, when he's trying to have a normal evening or be on a date. And the content starts to shift. It becomes darker, less emotional, more threatening. The kind of language that maybe makes you look over your own shoulder. Things like, I'm going to ruin your life. I'm going to destroy what you care about. And the worst part is how relentless it is. Because one angry text, you might shrug it off. 10, you get annoyed. But when your phone is dinging over and over and over, your nervous system starts to live in this permanent flinch. And that's when Dave starts realizing whatever this is, it isn't cooling down. It's building.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

So what does he do? Did he go to the police? Did he tell Liz about what was going on?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

He did tell Liz about it and he tried to handle it the way that most people handle harassment at first. You know, the way you handle something that feels like it should just be temporary. He tries to ignore it, he tries to block her number, he tries to starve whatever this is of any kind of attention. If you've ever dealt with someone who feeds on reaction, you know what you have to do. Don't give them the reaction. Over the next several days, Dave's phone becomes something he begins to dread looking at. At first, the messages arrive the way angry texts usually do: rapid, emotional, messy. They come in bursts, sometimes several in a row, each one a little harsher and more mean than the last. The language day-to-day swings wildly from accusation to insult to pleading, and then starts over. One message might call him a liar. The next might accuse him of ruining her life. Another might jump suddenly to only profanity. The tone doesn't sound measured. It sounds like someone typing quickly and emotionally reacting in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Okay, so it's kind of swung the opposite way. I thought this was gonna be Liz who was gonna be this way.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Right. I'm sure Dave did too. Yeah. Not Carrie.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Not Carrie. And especially after two weeks, like what is the deal? And he had that conversation with her at the beginning. Yeah. Like I don't want to move in together. I don't want to be more than casual. Yeah. But perhaps asking her to stay the week. Maybe gave her a different idea. Yeah. Could be. But chill out.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Like chill out. Exactly. My gosh, it's been two weeks. Yes. Dave assumes because of that it will end. It should end quicker than the relationship lasted. Right. Dave begins to feel like he's dealing with someone who maybe felt humiliated, someone who feels rejected. She put herself out there by asking to take the relationship a step further, and she was rejected. He also feels like it's someone who wants the last word in an argument that has already ended. So he hasn't gone to the police yet with this, correct? Not yet. If the messages had stayed in that lane, the story might have stopped there, but they do not. The pattern begins to change. The texts no longer arrive in short bursts that burn out. They stretch into hours. Dave will silence his phone, work on a car, and then check it again to find 10, 15, 20 messages have appeared. Sometimes the messages are really long, like a paragraph. Sometimes they're a single sentence. The texts accuse him of cheating. They accuse him of leading her on. They accuse him of wasting her time. Then the accusations become even colder. The messages begin to say things like, you have no idea what you've done. Or you're going to regret this. Or I'm not going to let you walk away from this. Oh my gosh. This is too much. Too much, Carrie. Much. There are moments when the text sound like rage and sometimes they sound calculated, like they're trying to land the perfect psychological punch. Dave finds himself in a strange position. He can't figure out how seriously to take them because it was a two-week relationship. People might say dramatic things when a relationship ends. They often say things they regret later. Dave has seen messy breakups before. He tells himself this will burn out. He blocks the number again. He ignores the messages, but they're still coming. Is she always texting from the same number? Nope. She starts using different numbers.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

So when he blocks her, she gets a new number?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Yes. Okay. Then she starts sending emails. And at first, the emails look like an extension of the text. The same anger, the same accusations, the same sense that someone is just determined to keep this argument alive. It's not even an argument, really, but that's how it feels. The email changes the rhythm of the harassment because emails can be a lot longer. He's getting them in batches. Dave will wake up in the morning and open his inbox to find several emails arrived overnight. Some are long paragraphs describing how badly he has wronged her. Others are short, sharp insults. Sometimes he only gets one email. Sometimes he gets dozens. At this point, he's getting dozens of emails, dozens of texts every day, 60 messages a day. Each one a reminder that Carrie's still watching, still angry, and refusing to let the situation settle. And Dave cannot understand the level of anger. He feels like he's arguing with someone who's angry, but he didn't think there was any type of commitment conversation at all. It was just this short two-week relationship.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yes. Which, yes, a breakup that ends badly. One person wants the other to know how they feel. That can be normal. Breakups can be ugly, but people say ridiculous stuff. You block them and they should move on, right? This is out of control. I mean, the different phone numbers, the different emails, going from text messages to emails.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

That is wild. It's wild. And the problem is it's not ending. It's not this queen, we're done, we're not dating anymore, kind of way. It's this weird limbo where he's not seeing her, their relationship is over, but her voice keeps showing up. Day after day, instead of fading out, the messages evolve. They're ugly, mean. They also start to sound strategic. Like someone isn't just venting, someone is landing these punches. And the tone really is the you're going to pay for this.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So like it stops being I'm mad and more becomes, and I'm not letting go of this in the worst kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Exactly. Dave is getting frustrated because he wants quiet, he wants casual, he wants this to end so he can go back to the normal rhythm of work, parenting, dating sometimes, but maybe he's maybe not gonna want to do it. Against that now. Yeah. The messages keep intruding though. And then it becomes the harassment that was only directed at him isn't enough anymore.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

So it's not just directed at him. Is she reaching out to other people around him now? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

And that is when Dave begins to realize this situation is not typical, normal in any way, shape, or form. One of the first people to notice is Liz. And at this point in late 2012, Liz and Dave are still in contact. They were still dating, they still see each other, they still talk. So Liz was willing to keep dating and keep things casual. Yeah, she still wanted to try to move past whatever had happened with him and Carrie and keep dating. After a week or two of Dave receiving these messages pretty regularly, he starts to feel watched and not literally watched in the sense that someone is standing outside his apartment, but psychologically watched because some messages include details that suggest Gary knows pieces of his life. Like she's seen other women that he's started to date or people he talks to, and their harassment feels really invasive. It feels relentless.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

It's not even like a breakup. They saw each other for two weeks. This has gone on longer than the relationship did. Yes. She said she was like so busy with all these projects and she doesn't live close by him. Who has time to be watching that much and doing this much? Like that is so much. The emails, texting. If you're busy working um with your kid, who has time for this?

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Just move the relentlessness of it. Absolutely. Liz had started to receive messages too. It wasn't that long after Dave had started getting dozens a day. Liz called Dave, shaken, and asked him how Carrie got her contact info. The tone of the texts and emails that she's receiving are hostile. They're personal. They accuse Liz of interfering in the relationship and manipulating Dave. They accuse Liz also of trying to push Carrie out of his life. And then things began to happen at Liz's home. In November, someone broke into her garage and stole a box of checks from her. So Liz reports the theft. And this is the first time that it's been reported to the police. They hadn't reported the texts and the emails just because they thought it would die out. They thought it would stop. On November 23rd, Liz came home and found damage to her garage door. The surface had been scratched and defaced with spray paint. On her garage door, it said, quote, whore from Dave. Another time she came home and found clothing had been slashed that she had kept in her garage. When she tells Dave about these incidents, the story that he's been trying to convince himself of that this is just angry texting feels less convincing because vandalism suggests physical. It suggests someone showing up, someone acting on the threats they've been sending.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

So at this point, they start thinking she may actually be there, like what we were seeing before. Maybe she's showing up and is increasingly violent. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

When the harassment moved from messages to property damage, Liz and Dave start to worry about their safety. Dave and Liz start to feel like someone is targeting both of them deliberately. Frequently, when Dave and Liz are together, they might be sitting on Dave's couch watching a movie. They will both start receiving texts at the same time from Carrie. Like she knows they're together.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

And at this point, has he reported the harassing texts and emails? Now that there's been physical damage to Liz's property, did he report the texts and emails?

SPEAKER_00 33:03

She had reported the checks that were stolen. I don't believe she reported the garage door at first, but the harassment was not stopping. It was escalating. And Dave decides that he does need to involve law enforcement. He contacts police to report the ongoing harassment. When officers review the messages, they see something that is really the same conclusion Dave had already reached. Carrie's angry, Carrie's sending messages, and now Carrie is stalking Dave. Police begin treating the situation as a harassment case. They attempt to locate Carrie so they can question her about the messages, but locating her turns out to be difficult. Shortly after ending things with Dave, Carrie had quit her job in Omaha. She let them know that she had found a new job in Kansas and was moving. Police also discover as they dig into her background that Carrie had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Her mom tells the officers that Carrie would frequently stop taking her medication because she didn't like how it made her feel. For police, there isn't much they can do at this point. They've seen how hard it is to track down someone determined to not be found. They believe Carrie must be having a mental health crisis and suggests that Dave and Liz keep track of everything they get from Carrie. And then when they're able to find her, they can use that. Dave changes his number again, the messages begin appearing on the new number. He blocks the new emails, he blocks the new phone numbers, more appear. It becomes a cycle that feels impossible to escape. And for Dave, this whole experience is exhausting. He tries to keep working, he tries to maintain normal routines with his children, but the harassment is invasive and it follows him everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

That really is exhausting. Having to get new phone numbers, new phones, all these things, and they keep finding them and sending the emails. It just doesn't stop no matter what he's doing. And that's so wild. How do you change your phone number and this person gets it again? You know?

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Right. By the time winter comes, that harassment, that daily exhaustion has just become part of Dave's daily life. And it's not something he can predict. The messages arrive whenever they want. Some mornings they begin before he even goes to work. Some nights they continue all night long. At first, the messages feel chaotic, but as the weeks stretch on, the pattern becomes stranger. There are times where there are long silences, just enough to make Dave hope that maybe Carrie has finally given up. And then suddenly his phone lights up, one message after another. And the language changes constantly. Some texts are furious, others sound strangely calm. Some sound like threats. Others read like someone trying to provoke him into responding. By the end of 2012, Dave is receiving around 60 messages a day.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Oh, that is so many. That is so exhausting. And training for your mental health, too. I can't imagine getting 60 messages a day, threatening you and harassing you over and over, plus emails.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Yeah. That is so hard. Completely. Dave is staying in contact with investigators, but they haven't had any luck finding Carrie. One of the messages from Carrie said she had moved into the same apartment complex as Dave. Police look into this, but they can't find a tenant who could be Carrie. And the address that she had given wasn't a real one or his complex. Police ask both Dave and Liz if they can download the contents of their phone in early January, and they both agree. They do a logical download. They review the data for any info that could help. They find nothing that leads to where Carrie is. Police save the data in their own files. One night, Dave is sitting in his living room and he sees a message from Carrie. She tells Dave she's watching him. She describes exactly how he's seated with his feet propped up. She describes what he's wearing down to his blue shirt. Dave jumps up, runs to the door, looks out, and no one's there. He lives in this apartment complex that has these buildings that overlook this grassy, forested area. So there are a lot of places down there where someone could be and maybe see him from there.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

What level was his apartment on? Do you know? I'm not sure if it was the second or the third, but it wasn't ground level.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Receiving all of this harassment from Carrie that no one could fully understand the scope of had rekindled the relationship between Dave and Liz, was something that they had in common, and they started spending more time together, which really only seemed to make Carrie lash out more. More frequently when they were together, they would start getting messages at the same time. On January 10th, 2013, two months after the breakup, Dave is arriving home when he notices something. Parked outside a building in his complex, he spots a vehicle that looks very familiar. It's a Ford Explorer, a black Ford Explorer. It looks exactly like the SUV Carrie had been driving. For a moment, Dave wonders if he's mistaken. It has been two months since he saw her car after all. But as he slows down and looks again, the feeling grows stronger. That is her car, just sitting there. No one inside, no one nearby who seems to be connected to it. Dave pulls into the parking lot and stops a short distance away. He sits there for a minute, staring at the vehicle, trying to decide what to do. Dave decides the best thing to do is call police. Yes. Good job.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

That's what I was hoping. Yep. I'm like, I wouldn't have stopped. I would have kept driving and called the police, though.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

I think he is determined to maybe confront her if he has the opportunity, but I agree. I'm glad he called police too. Yeah. When officers arrive, they approach the SUV cautiously and begin basic checking of the vehicle. The doors are unlocked. They tow the vehicle to their impound lot and process it. Inside, the vehicle looks pretty normal. It's very clean. There's only an empty mint container in one of the front cup holders. They don't find any fingerprints or anything, but that mint container had one on it. And it wasn't one that they could match to anyone. They didn't find anything else helpful. So they released the explorer back to Carrie's family. Even with that discovery, the situation remains confusing.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

When they found the car there, did they search the area to look for her? They did. Yeah, they didn't find her.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

And it had recently snowed. It sounds like it was parked there and then it had snowed over top of it because there weren't even footprints in the snow or anything around it. It's possible it had been there for a day or two. The messages keep coming. Dave continues receiving texts all through early 2013. By this point, he has at least 18 numbers, 18 different phone numbers saved in his phone that are carry. The emails keep arriving, new addresses, some that incorporate Dave's name into them, like Dave's girl. They all still sound furious. And because these messages are so active, so constant, and so aggressive, the simplest explanation continues to dominate the investigation. They believe that Carrie is intentionally staying out of sight while continuing to contact Dave and others electronically. Their focus is on locating Carrie. That seems to be the only way that they'll be able to get these messages to stop.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

But so interesting, if she left town, why is her car there? And how is she spying on him and all these other things too?

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Exactly. I think you probably thought that finding the car would mean finding her, and also he knows now that she had quit her job and moved to Kansas. So yeah, watching me. Do we have a new car that I need to be worried about? Yeah. As the months continue to pass, the harassment continues. It grows. New email accounts, new phone numbers, more threats. Dave's gotta be hoping they will find her. This investigation has now been going on for months. How have they not found where she is so they can talk to her and stop her? I'm sure he's thinking any day now, I'll have the answers to why she's doing this or a way to make it stop.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Did his ex-wife get any threatening messages? Were they attached at all? She did too.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

A lot of people in Dave's life, actually. It feels like a siege on him and everyone he knows. Amy is on the receiving end frequently. She gets emails and text messages. The emails also begin appearing in places that he could have never expected them. One day, a coworker approaches him at the auto shop with an uncomfortable look on his face. Someone has sent an email to the business, and the message claims that Dave is a terrible person, that he manipulates women, that he deserves to be exposed. And soon after that, messages begin reaching other people in Dave's orbit, former girlfriends, women he might only take out a few times, friends, even people he barely knows. Some of the emails accuse Dave of cheating or lying. Others contain long explanations about how he destroyed someone's life and deserves consequences. They're threatening. She'll even threaten their children if they have children. And each message is signed the same way, Carrie.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

That is so scary. To threaten someone's children. How is she finding all this information, all these contact numbers? Like this is becoming a full time job for her, basically. Totally. She did quit her job so she can spend All of her time racist and stalking Dave. That's so scary.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

And she was in tech, so she probably knew how to do more of that than a lot of people. Probably that's true. For Dave, it's this strange kind of public humiliation. Suddenly, people around him are receiving these messages and wondering what's going on. It's almost probably worse if they don't tell him because he can't explain the situation. Exactly. Dave does find himself constantly explaining how complicated it is that this woman he very briefly dated seems to be angry, stalking him, refusing to move on. His car is keyed. It said, quote, Dave loves that horse, which is awful. Liz's car is keyed. It says, horse stops seeing Dave. And at the same time, Liz is dealing with more and more of her own harassment. The messages she receives are personal. They accuse her of stealing Dave. Others call her names, insult her appearances. They suggest that she manipulated Dave. And the vandalism at her house has continued. The damage to her garage door was just the beginning. Some claim the sender is watching her. Some suggest that worse is coming. Liz begins to feel unsafe in her own home. She decides she needs to move. And then something happens that pushes the entire situation into a new level of fear. Dave receives an email in the summer of 2013 that says, quote, I'll kill her. She stole my heart. She broke my dreams. She stole my future when she took you away from me. That whore will die.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Wow. That is so scary. So scary. Liz knows that Carrie knows where she lives. I would absolutely move too. Yeah. And luckily, it seems like she can find them wherever, though. She has all the information.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

All the information. Liz is in the process of that. And shortly after that email came that said, I'll kill her. On the night of August 16th into August 17th, Liz's house catches on fire. Flames spread quickly through the home, filling the structure with smoke and heat. And because Liz had been moving, they were already spending nights in the new home. So her and her children weren't there.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Oh, good. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

She went to her old place around 7:30 in the morning on the morning of Saturday, August 17th. Firefighters were called at 8:14 a.m. to her home. And the fire was mostly out by the time they arrived. No window had been open. So the fire didn't have oxygen to continue burning it, even worse. But thick black smoke hung in the air. Now, tragically, inside the house were Liz's pets. She had two small dogs, a cat and a snake, and they did not survive the fire. The loss really sad. Yeah. The loss of Liz's pets devastated her. As firefighters examine the scene, they find accelerants and at least six different points of origin for where the fire was set. They also found a gasoline can, which was hers, that had been used to help also accelerate the fire. It was immediately clear to the fire department that the fire had been started intentionally. What makes the situation even more disturbing is what happened the night the fire was set. Emails arrived. Both Dave and Liz received them. The email to Liz was sent at 12:56 a.m. on August 17th and said that she, Carrie, hoped Liz and her children burn to death, which is horrifying. That's horrifying. Dave said come a little earlier at 11:57 p.m. on the 16th. It said, I am not lying. I set that nasty whore's house on fire, and I hope the whore and her kids die in it. That is so terrifying. Can you imagine waking up and I don't know if he was reading all of them every day or just turning them over? I feel like it would be so mentally draining. Yeah. To read.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

That's what I was thinking too. You can't read through all of that and all the texts and everything else every day that would be exhausting.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yeah, I agree. So I don't know if he saw that and woke up wondering what happened. I'm sure Liz called him after calling the fire department.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

Must have made everything more terrifying, all the threats. It must have made them seem more real to everything.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Then, like we were just saying, does that mean you have to start paying attention to them? Because now it's not just harassment, it's following up on those threats. The house fire made the stakes feel completely different. The threats were real. There was an attempt at physical harm, which could have been devastating. I mean, losing her pets was devastating. Thank goodness they weren't there when it happened. Police began looking at the fire as a possible case of arson. And because the threatening emails claim responsibility, the investigation is focused more than ever on finding Carrie. I can't believe they can't find her. Yeah. It's been so long. Mm-hmm. It's been we're coming up on a year at this point. Yeah. At least six months that they've really been looking for her since the first incident with the garage door.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

And and we know that she's around. It's not like she's in Mexico or she left the country. We know she's in their town.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

If you're keying cars and spray painting windows, dark garages.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

You know, she's looking at that, like that. She can see them. She's describing what they're wearing. You know she's here. Right. Terrifying they can't find her.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Agreed. They are determined to find her. They realize this is the only way to stop the torment. Changing phone numbers, nothing else. Blocking the numbers, blocking the email addresses. Nothing else has worked. The torment continued. Eventually, it had been over a year. In 2014, the auto repair shop that Dave managed was vandalized. The words Dave eats women was spray painted on the front windows. One night he had a female friend that was staying the night. As they were in his apartment, the handle to his door started jiggling like someone was trying to break in. And every time when things like that happen and he goes to see who it is, no one is there, which is awful. Dave was suffering mentally from the constant harassment and interruptions. He started drinking nightly at a local bar and eventually gained over 30 pounds. He feared for his children's safety because some of the threats did involve children. Amy's children, she's getting threats about that. Dave is also Liz and other women that he's taken out or known from the past. Dave's dad gave him a nine millimeter Smith and Wesson pistol that Dave kept hidden in a box in the top of his closet just in case. One night in 2014, a brick was thrown through his bedroom window. With the things happening to his apartment, Dave decided that he couldn't continue living there. And in February of 2015, so now this has gone on for over two years. Oh my gosh. He moved to the same area that Amy was living in. It's in Council Bluffs, Iowa, hoping this would prevent Carrie from physically being able to stalk him, even if nothing seemed to stop the digital stalking. The messages, the emails, they continued through 2015. At this point, he had over 30 phone numbers tied to Carrie and as many or more email addresses. Through all of this, Dave and Liz had dated off and on, but still never fully committed. And I'm sure having this constant harassment was impossible to have any kind of committed, constant relationship.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

By November of 2015, Liz and Dave had quit seeing each other. Sure, it was exhausting for Liz too. She's not even in a serious relationship with this guy. And she's still being constantly harassed. And same with Amy, it's like, I don't really know you. So why this? Why? Why?

SPEAKER_01 53:21

Well, and other random women, he's just going out with a couple times. Like she's completely destroying his life.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yes. Which is what she threatened to do from the very beginning. In late November 2015, Dave returned home from being out one day and went to get something out of his bedroom closet. He's been in his new place for about 10 months now. The box that he kept his gun in was sticking out a little at a weird angle, but still where it should be. But it caught his attention immediately. He always kept it hidden and stored away so that he could ensure his children never got it and it was in a safe place in case he needed it, but always out of sight. He got the box down, opened it, and to his absolute horror, the gun was missing.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

That's so scary. Can you imagine? I would be panicking because now someone's been in your house, they've stolen this gun. Yeah. And you're actively being harassed and stalked. Yep. Awful. That is where we are going to leave part one because that was a lot. That was three years of constant torment and harassment that doesn't seem to have an end in sight.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Yeah. So that's truly awful. Awful. Just out-of-control behavior.

SPEAKER_00 54:57

You know, it's when I first started researching this, I couldn't believe that it had gone on for so long. Yeah. We're dating for two weeks. For months and then years.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

And some of those things like the house fire that's eight months in, or having bricks thrown. There was another brick that was thrown, I believe, but I can't find the exact timing of that. And her car is discovered so long ago.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Yeah. So she driving something. Three years. Yeah. Almost three years at this point that they've like really been looking. Well, yeah, because they started in 2013 and were November 2015. Yeah. Wow. So when we come wait to find out what happens in part two.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Yes. There is still so much, but it will come to an end. And I can't wait to tell you about that too. Find that in part two, which is available in your feed right now, because we absolutely can't leave you hanging on this one. No.

unknown 56:13

No.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

And in the meantime, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Crime Clueless. If you're looking for the resources that we used in this episode, we have links to court docs and a great book by Ann Rule's daughter that was written on this case. She did a lot of research, and it's a great resource for this. You can find all of those linked on our website, crimeclueless.com. We would love to connect with you. We're on social media, on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. Just search for at Crime Clueless. We'd love to hear what you think about this case or if you have others you want us to cover. Finally, if you enjoyed today's episode or episodes, please take a moment to rate, review, and share our podcast. It's a fast, free, easy way to help out Crime Clueless, and we truly appreciate it. You can find Crime Clueless on all streaming platforms wherever you get your podcasts. And as always, remember, refuse to be clueless, careless, or caught off guard.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

Not today, murder. Bye.