EP 52: Ashley Pena, LPC-C on Helping Kids Navigate Anxiety, Attachment, and Emotional Health

What if your child’s anxiety, anger, or withdrawal is really a signal that they need connection, not correction?

Ashley Pena, LPC-C is a counselor who works with children and families, and in this conversation she shares what drew her into the mental health field after seeing the powerful impact that empathy and support can have on a child and parent navigating autism. Her heart for helping kids communicate what they are feeling—and helping families build stronger, healthier connection—is at the center of this episode.

In this episode, Ashley and Cathy talk about what parents and caregivers should be watching for when it comes to children’s emotional health, why anxiety is often misunderstood, and how therapy can be a positive, practical support for both kids and families. They also explore attachment styles, play therapy, art therapy, social media’s effect on children, and why consistency, curiosity, and open communication matter so much at home.

This conversation covers:

• Why more children seem to be struggling with anxiety and emotional overwhelm
• How social media and modern family dynamics may be affecting kids
• Why anxiety is not always a negative thing
• How play therapy and art therapy help younger children express emotions
• What attachment styles can look like in children and later in adulthood
• How parents can recognize changes in behavior that may signal a deeper issue
• Why “connection over correction” can help children feel safe enough to open up
• How therapy can support not just the child, but the whole family

If you are a parent, caregiver, or someone walking closely with a child who may be struggling, this conversation offers practical encouragement and hopeful insight. Share this episode with someone who needs a reminder that seeking help is not a weakness—it can be a wise and healing next step.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Too often we hear these words anxiety, depression, trauma, attachment disorder. Okay, people, what is going on in our world? Every day we are hearing more and more people struggling with emotional health. So on today's episode, we are going to introduce Ashley Penna. She has her master's degree in clinical mental health counseling and works with Eli Mental Health Clinics, which are actually located throughout the United States. Ashley happens to work here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, but I wanted to invite her on the podcast so she could share her experience and offer some resolutions and just let everyone know that if you, your child, or someone you know is struggling with emotional health, that therapy can be the answer. Hey everyone, it's Kathy with the Mehan Mission Podcast. And today I am delighted to share the screen with Ashley Penna. And she is a counselor with Ellie Mental Health Clinics. And I was just like so excited. She came by the office the other day, and there is so much information out there on children nowadays and the anxiety and just all of the problems that, you know, in my generation, I I don't think we had as many mental issues, if you want to call it that, or just anxiety. And our poor children nowadays, they need people like Ashley. So what I wanted to do was introduce Ashley to our listeners so she can help kind of give us the other side of the picture and, you know, give us some insight if we're having children that are experiencing some issues, or if we have friends with children, if we need to share this podcast. But I'm just inviting Ashley to please spill your brain out for us. And I probably want to start with what got you interested in working with children in the first place when it came to the mental health field? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Um, it's not your typical story, honestly. Um, I happen to be at my husband's barbecue for his company, and I had the opportunity to notice a particular parent interacting with his child who had a diagnosis or has a diagnosis of autism. Um, and just the way that he interacted was so caring and empathetic. Uh, and I've seen other families not be able to be so caring or empathetic and be more stressed with it. So it really helped me to see that I really would like to support those that maybe need some more help and more resources so that they are able to interact in the same fashion, regardless of their situations. It doesn't just have to be with autism. And so I ultimately found myself drawn to children specifically to allow them different avenues to communicate what's going on and describe how they're feeling. And working with families allow me to support the entire system and the parents and their grandparents and even siblings, anyone that comes in contact with the kids. Uh, because everyone they play a huge role in the environment and emotionally and physically. Um, over time I've learned that when I get to support the child and the family, the healing becomes more sustainable. Uh, that blend allows me to uh work with prevention, intervention, and connection, which is continuously keeping me passionate about the work.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

That's so great. Well, when when you are dealing with the children and you talk about bringing the families in and everything, I mean, we hear all these things about like the breakdown of the nuclear family. And I think that probably adds to like miscommunication between parents and so many of these little things that we don't think about really affect the children more than we anticipate. And and I I say that and like, you know, children always want, I always thought they want stability, they want to know what's happening on. So children in their younger years, what do you find as far as like age-related anxiety problems? And is it like they are they getting younger and younger? And and what do you attribute to that?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

You know, it's an interesting question because if you look at 20 years ago, there's a lot of technology that we don't that we have today that we didn't have. Right, right. Yeah. Some can argue that that would contribute to that anxiety. Um, but I also think just our environment in general has shifted so much that the generation, excuse me, the generations that we have grown up in have changed and the way that they want to approach um parenting and involvement with their families as well. And I feel like there's a lot of connection that has been lost.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah, I I agree. Um, I mean, I've just I've seen it over the years too, just the family dynamics have changed, the introduction of social media, which, you know, so is that as big of a problem as I hear? Because my children are now, you know, 20s and 30s. And so um I know it kind of had an impact on them younger, but what is the influence of social media on kids nowadays?

SPEAKER_00 5:48

It's interesting because if we're looking at currently today, I've noticed a lot of the kiddos that I have worked with are saying they don't even want to connect to social media because it's just so much dream and gloom and so much negativity that they're finding that they don't even want to connect to social media in the way that kids five or 10 years ago had. Um I it just really depends on how much interaction these kids have with social media, um, access to the news outlets and what type of information they're being fed and inundated with. Their parents approach as well and communicate it to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Well, I I mean, I know, you know, now I have grandkids and they are, you know, getting cell phones and all that. And um, just like for my personal information, it's scary, right? The information that these kids can come across when it comes to social media and and also with the algorithms that are going out, you know, you click on one bad site, and then that's all you're gonna get are more bad sites. And I would think that would just like contribute to the mental illness, and I don't know if you call what that, sorry, whatever's correct to say, but our poor children nowadays, and what can parents do to make sure that their children who are online that they're protected?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

There are so many factors, protective factors in social media, in your electronic devices. Um and, you know, I can't really speak to what is best, but I definitely believe having a relationship, a connection with your child, having that open line of communication where you're able to be curious about what they're being fed throughout the day, whether it be in school, in person, or online, being curious about it and not approaching it in a way of um criticism, because a lot of the information that's coming about right now, it's not stuff that we as parents have ever experienced. And so we could have our own reaction to it that we can contribute to our past. And so just being involved and being present for your kids and not constantly correcting them and telling them, well, you shouldn't be doing this. Instead, let's help them see different sides of why it's good or why it's not good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

And I was also kind of thinking of as far as like anxiety seems to be like the big buzzword with our children. Do you think we overprogram our children nowadays? And that might cause some of the anxiety type issues that they're having.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

I think we are self-diagnosing too much. And we are taking anxiety as a negative thing. Anxiety back before modern civilization was there to help protect us. And anxiety is a protective factor that our own mind and body has. So, you know, back in the Hunter days, where they, you know, we were living off the land, we had to be aware of our surroundings, our sensations, and understanding what this crack of a stick or these crinkling of leaves meant. Was it harmful or was it just someone that we know? And over time, because of the way that civilization has changed and progressed, that anxiety still lives in us because it's meant to protect us. And being able to understand what anxiety is trying to communicate to us will help us work through that anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah. Well, it seems like anxiety is really should just be a temporary state. But maybe people are using it as a blanketed term because now people are just using, and I don't know if that's really the exact term. It's it's depression, anxiety, trauma, trauma, grief, fear, all of these things are, you know, when I was growing up, we saw that on TV, but it wasn't like our best friends and everybody in the class had that. It just seems that it's I don't, is it uh is it something that's overdiagnosed or is it underdiagnosed in our child population?

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Um, in some cases, it could be overdiagnosed. But that anxiety again, what is it communicating to us? And that's one of the things with therapy and being able to be able to communicate with these kids is really key to understand, okay, anxiety is a symptom, that behavioral response to what's going on in our environment and not and in our mind. So why are we having anxiety? Um, it it can feel like it is overcommunicated because social media, as you just say a little bit ago, you click on one video talking about anxiety, now all of a sudden you're gonna see anxiety everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Yeah. Yeah, everywhere. Yeah. Well, um, talking about with with kids specifically, um, as far as like therapy, I know, you know, people think they go to a counselor and they and they talk out therapy and work out for their resolutions and everything. But what about like for younger kids? I've heard of things like art therapy and, you know, just kind of like play therapy. Can you kind of give us a little rundown of how those things differ and how you would use those for the different ages? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

And those are actually the forms of therapy that I feel like are the strongest in working with kids. They kids are able to express their emotions, like I said, through behavior. Um, they're not, they don't come readily equipped to understand the appropriate behavior with anger or their thoughts. And so with play therapy and even art therapy, can give them a developmentally appropriate form of language for their inner world. Um, they communicate through symbols and stories and movement and creativity to help them work through that complex um emotion. So, like with play therapy, a a child might interact with a different doll or figurine to work out that reenact that situation, that difficult situation that either they were in contact with or that they're struggling with or that they've seen. And art therapy, I mean, drawing a stormy sky doesn't always mean that there's something scary happening, but could it be for that child? And so we're able to work through it in those approaches. We're able to bypass the pressure of, okay, now explain to me what's going on, or come up with words that you don't even know how to equate to what you're feeling. It allows them to feel safe and vulnerable without judgment.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Oh, that yeah, that's good. And I could see where you know age appropriateness would come in for that. So, kind of in your practice, um, is there maybe of all the challenges that are facing kids, is there seem to be like um, do they come in different waves as far as like what's what's happening with our children nowadays? Are you seeing one challenge more than other challenges?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I think the a lot of the commonalities that I've run into um center around connection and focus, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Um you mean like by uh like attach I've heard of like attachment disorders.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Is that kind of is that yeah, so there are there are um different forms of attachment and connection. So you can have like secure attachment or anxious avoidant or um anxious attached or completely disached. And um there are different levels with those that can really impact the way that kiddos interact with our world and even us adults. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Could you give me like an example of one of those that you see which is maybe like more common and how there is a resolution or you know, how that gets fixed if if fixed is actually the word.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah. Um yeah. So with the attachment types, a lot of them could, I guess you could say I see more anxious attachment and and a lot of avoidant attachment as well. Um and with anxious attachment, you're afraid of being alone in you when something's happening. You you cannot be alone and you've gotta have someone with you, right? Um, avoidant means I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna commit to this relationship because they're never gonna stick around or they don't always stick around. You have that person that's constantly leaving in their life and it's shown up in that for them, and then they continue and grow with that. Um, and so I'm I'm able to help the kids through that, but also the parents learn to tune in to the meaning behind that. Um, like if a child's anger, it could they could be expressing anger, but it's really fear or overwhelm in teaching families to help co-regulate um reflecting, reflective listening, that can be really hard as a parent, uh, and building what's pretty popularly known as I love you rituals. And that's not necessarily always the I love you statement, um, but it creates connection. Um, and so with that, with a parent to a child situation, if a child is spending just a few minutes a day with the parent undivided, no phone, no TV, you know, it's one-on-one attention that they're getting. The child, though, leads that event that they are doing, and the parent listens with warmth and empathy. It builds the child's sense of safety and they feel seen and heard and even emotionally supported. Again, it's that interacting without judgment. And you can even do this with siblings where they're playing a game together or create a special handshake, and that allows something that small allows that connection with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Oh, I think that sounds so important. I mean, especially, you know, I know when it comes to I I'm even thinking like at in work scenarios. I mean, you can apply this to so many different areas of your life. And I was even thinking of I have here about people that are like on the dating scene now and they're having like people that are what they call, you know, avoidant and all those. And it's like all kind of making sense. And I think, you know, a lot of the issues stem as children and, you know, some of our situations that we grow up in. But um, is there hope for these kids? I mean, how do we recognize that there is something going on where our child might need some help? How do we recognize that?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Um, well, first noticing if there's been a change in behavior um and being able to sit down with your child and assess whether or not it's something that is internal or external. And that can be really hard for kiddos too. So just approaching it in a in a safe, like a non-judgmental way, a curiosity, a little curiosity. Um, identifying, you know, I've noticed something's different. And then asking an open-ended question instead of a yes or no, because you're gonna yes or no questions with kids, they they don't pose very well. Yeah, they I bet not, no. No, they just go yes or no, and there's no context to it. But he said, you know, what has it been like for you at school? Is there how are you doing with your friends? Um, if you're noticing that there's a they're alone a lot more or that they're not as talkative as they once were. Um are they not feeling connected? And again, just echoing, you know, connection over correction because kids problem solve when they feel misunderstood and they won't open up if they don't feel safe in the environment to do so. And then if you just getting support, you know, I'm so thankful that we're in a day and age now where therapy is not such a negative viewpoint anymore. There are so many people getting therapy out there that they're noticing that just having that extra support, that third party individual who doesn't live with you every single day, and you don't feel judged by them because that you only see them once a week or once a month, depending on how frequently you go. Recognizing that therapy doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. It just allows that space for kids, families, parents, and individuals to gain tool tools to gain resources, process through their strength and their strengths and strengthen communication. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

No, yeah, that's very necessary. And it's so good that you pointed out that it's therapy is not negative, you know, like it used to be, you know, people like, oh, you're going to therapy. And it's like, but now it's it's such a resourceful tool. And whether you need it for a short-term situation or, you know, some people need it for long-term situations just to come to resolutions. But um, it it really is an asset that um if someone is having, you know, difficulties with anything, that they should get seek out some therapy. Uh, it it's I I was just thinking in my head, how many people I know that go to therapy? And it's like it's just part of you know their weekly or monthly schedule is to head over and go to their therapy. And that's of all ages, too. That's of all ages. So yeah, so what um I just kind of want to have a picture of like what is the youngest age when someone's gonna go see a therapist?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

I mean, I mean, you can it depends on the level of trauma and the environment. Yeah. Because I have known two-year-olds to even be admitted um for therapy and requested to go to therapy um because of the how the high level of trauma that they experience. Uh I know I see kiddos at least at age of four on um the last few years. I have had the opportunity to be in a school district where I could office in a school and be able to see the kids during their school day, which was really cool to have that support, create that safe space for them. And I sell cares all the way up to eighth graders.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah. Well, that's good that they've got that resource if somebody needs it there. And I would think that probably a lot of your referrals actually come from maybe a physician, or if if they, you know, if it's an extreme case where they need therapy, that somebody often would recommend you go see a therapist.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

So yeah, you uh we do get a lot here at um Ellie in the private practice world from our physicians um because you're doing your check ins with your kids, you're taking them to the doctor's appointment, and they they're able to ask those questions and they help you identify. I if there are any behavior changes that aren't in line with their age, if it's not developmental, then they'll re you know, refer you to therapy. Um, I've also gotten them from school counselors where they're noticing or the teachers are noticing and hearing something that just seems a little concerning and they talk to the parent, and then the parent says, Yeah, I think that would be a good idea. And then either the parent reaches out or the school reaches reached out at that time as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Yeah. Are there any telltale signs for parents to be looking for when it comes to like the emotional well-being? I know uh we kind of briefly hit on it. Um, but I I guess it's just really making sure that parents are in communication with their kids. And it's so hard with busy schedules nowadays, right? You know, parents, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Um, accepting your support system and what saying, you know, uh if your kid doesn't feel safe or comfortable to even come to you as the parent and not noticing anything at home, checking in at school, checking in with grandparents, aunts, and uncles, and say, hey, have you noticed anything different? Or you've noticed a change in their appetite, their sleep schedule, um, their behavior? Are they more aggressive now? Is that age appropriate, or is there something going on internally? Is there has there been a recent life transition? So has a parent lost a job or have they moved, a family loss, um, a pet? Pet could also cause a kiddo to exert depression symptoms and those kinds of things as well. So it's really hard to say here's a surefire reason. Um, if you're ever questioning it, if you just you have this inkling that something's not right, you can talk to your primary care provider or you can just reach out and we can do an intake and um work through some of the goals. A lot of it's behavior-based with kids, you know, we don't want them work doing this or acting this way. So, you know, how can you help? And because in the therapy world for kids, behavior is communication, we're gonna get down to the bottom of it in our sessions, and then we'll be able to also, when you work with kids, you work with the families, right? So not all the sessions are just with the kids. You have family sessions or just sessions with the parents so that you can help them understand parenting styles. Is this not really this parenting style not working with those kiddos?

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah, very interesting that you mentioned parenting styles because sometimes, I mean, that's conflict alone for a child. If mom does things one way and dad does something the other way and there's no consistency, I mean, I would think that would probably just really cause a lot of issues for that poor child, um, who's kind of stuck in the middle. And I and I you probably get a lot of that with uh with the the divorced or separated parents too, I would imagine would um sadly cause a lot of emotional distress for the children involved. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah, and unfortunately when when divorce happens, the parents think that they're doing best by trying to adhere to this visitation schedule or that visitation schedule, and they forget to ask the child or see how it's affecting the child. Um, because as you stated at the very beginning, honestly, kids thrive off of consistency. And when that consistency is not there, it can really make the it more challenging for them to navigate their world.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So then uh do you like suggest counseling for, you know, parents? I mean, you know, I mean, just if you if you know you're gonna have problems with your child, you just need to come in and start them now. It's like I would think the sooner the better. Any type of counseling. As soon as you suspect there is an issue or there's going to be an issue, let's get started, really.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Yeah. And kids building that rapport and that trust takes a little bit longer than it does with an adult because they don't know how to read body language. And depending on what their life situation has been, you're just another person. How do how am I supposed to actually so that will end up affecting the timeline? But depending on the situations, you know, if the parent still is lost and they still don't know what to do with their kid because something's not changing, then I I would suggest, you know, how well do you have a therapist yourself to work through these things? And, you know, would we want us to work together on trying to help with the parenting side of things as well? Because as they say in airplanes, you know, in an event of an emergency, put the mask on yourself before you put it on your and I have noticed an uptick in seeing kiddos. The parents will put their kid in therapy, but they won't go to therapy themselves. Um they don't know that there's something that they're doing that's going on that they're still working through as well. Because as you also stated, a lot of our adult problems stem from our childhood and they may be um triggered in this is how I behaved as a kid, and this is what was done unto me when I behave that way, but I'm also conflicted because I don't feel like I want to do that to my kid. And so when you get into that struggle too, it's really hard and just having that support system. Therapy is really just a huge support system to help give you somebody else to talk to that is neutral. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Well, it's just, I just think, you know, I raised my husband and I raised five kids. And it was not easy raising five kids. And, you know, then you throw social media in there, and then you throw, you know, such there's so much influence in the schools, or just, I mean, it's just so complicated that um I really hope that people recognize that therapy is an answer. It's a positive answer, and it's not just for kids, and it's not just for adults. And you're right, it's for the entire family. Um I I mean, that just makes so much sense. But it's one of those things that, you know, sometimes, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And again, that's kind of why I wanted to bring you on to let people know that um, you know, there are options when there's issues with somebody's emotional health. Because, you know, we do physical health all the time. And it's a big part of your physical health is your emotional health, which, you know, and I I see both sides of that. You know, some people are like, all they're talking about is emotional, and they're not doing anything to balance it out with physical health. If they would just, you know, exercise, eat better, and do all these things. And then you've got the person that's doing all of the physical things, but they're still depressed or angry or whatever. And really, that all ties in together.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

So it does. And there are there's even a therapy modality called somatic therapy. And with that and um mental health, we've noticed that a lot of our mental health feeds our somatic symptoms. So, and our bodies, uh, there's a book out there called The Body Keeps Score. Um talks very beautifully about how any trauma and trauma is so loosely used, but trauma is just a situation where you've endured this situation and you weren't able to process it. Not every situation is the same for every individual, and you process it differently. But with the Body Keep Score, they talk about how that sticks in your body. And if you are able to work through somatic therapy with a therapist, um, and do there's even somatic exercises out there that can help you release that that tension in your back or any other physical symptom, and it it is all tied together.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah, yeah, it really is. And it's, you know, as as the science continues, we're discovering more things every day. And it is essential that, you know, physical and emotional health, they really do go hand in hand. And and um, that's what I hope that everybody gets out of this. But um, so what is your advice for parents that might have um concern for their children's emotional health? My guess is they go find a therapist, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:06

First be curious, yeah. Be curious with your kid, um, connect with them, and then yeah, talk to your primary care, find a therapist that that you feel comfortable with your child seeing. I think that's great.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

So now, Ashley, I know that you are actually located here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And so you have an office in Tulsa and an office in Bixby. And then also Eli Mental Health Clinics are actually all across the United States. So if somebody needs to get in touch with you, how do they get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah, um you can go to LAmentalhealth.com and you can select the location that you're looking for therapy and um select the reasons, and you can even schedule online by yourself. Uh, if you'd rather talk to someone, you can. The phone number is on the website. Um, the one here for Oklahoma is 918 800 2058. Um, but yeah, go to LMentalhealth.com and you can select your therapists. You'll see a bio for each therapist that's there, and you can see their first available appointment. And we take all major, um, the majority of major insurances and self-pay options as well. That is great.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Ashley, I appreciate you taking your time out of your day to help educate our listeners. And I just pray that everything goes well in 2026. And thank you for joining me today. Thank you for having me.