Look for the Helpers 10: Building Homes and Hope

This episode centers on Kevin L. Smith’s long vocation of service through Habitat for Humanity of New Castle County and the way his housing work and Christian calling have grown together over time. Kevin describes a formative sense of calling, “be with my people,” which led him through a Mennonite volunteer program to Habitat for Humanity in Fresno and then back home to Delaware, where he has now spent three decades building homes, community, and hope. He also reflects on his more recent ordination as a deacon in the United Methodist Church, explaining that seminary and ordained ministry formalized work he feels he had already been doing for years: connecting the church to the needs of the world and helping congregations live their faith in tangible ways.  

A major theme of the conversation is Kevin’s conviction that a home means far more than shelter. He explains that first-time homeownership changes not only the life of a buyer, but the expectations and trajectory of that buyer’s children. Stability, affordability, health, school performance, and the possibility of college or long-term advancement all become more attainable when a family has a stable place to live. He describes homeownership as a launch pad that enables families to live more fully into their potential.  

The discussion then broadens from individual families to the housing system in Delaware. Kevin argues that Habitat’s role is larger than building houses. It includes advocacy around the structural causes of the housing crisis, especially zoning rules that block density and keep affordable housing from being built in many suburban areas. He discusses the need for inclusionary zoning, where municipalities require a portion of new market-rate development to be set aside as affordable, and he pushes back against the idea that affordable housing should be confined to Wilmington or other urban cores. Teachers, nurses, caregivers, and service workers live throughout the state and need housing in every kind of community.  

The faith dimension runs through the whole conversation. Kevin frames Habitat explicitly as a Christian ministry that puts God’s love into action by building homes, communities, and hope. He sees churches as natural partners, not only through volunteering and fundraising, but increasingly through property stewardship. One striking example is Habitat’s partnership with the New Castle Presbytery to develop 23 housing units on church-owned land in Glasgow. This part of the conversation shows how churches can move from charity alone toward using their assets in structurally meaningful ways.  

The episode also clarifies what makes Habitat’s model distinctive. Kevin explains that Habitat is not simply a builder. It also acts as a lender, providing zero-interest mortgages and spending months preparing families through training and sweat equity to support long-term success. He emphasizes that Habitat does not “give away homes” and that the organization serves people who are financially and personally ready for homeownership, while also offering repair progr

Transcript

Design and Religion 049_Habitat_mixdown: 0:00

Welcome to the Design and Religion Podcast. I'm Van Shea Sedita, a service designer, illustrator, and gesture interface patent holder. I'm joined by the Reverend Dr. Nate Phillips, head pastor at Red Clay Creek Presbyterian Church, and author of Do Something Else. Together, we explore how design can shape the future of religion, helping it evolve to better serve people's needs and spread love more effectively. Kevin Smith is the CEO of Habitat for Humanity of Newcastle County, Delaware. He joins us to talk about affordable housing, faith, and what makes a home truly possible. Have a listen. Yeah, my name is Kevin Smith. I'm a bivocational minister. So some over 32 years ago, I felt God calling me with the words, be with my people. And that led me to try to discern what that meant. And ultimately, I chose to go through a Christian volunteer program through the Mennonite Church. And they had a couple different organizations. Well, they had two postings with Habitat for Humanity across the country. and ultimately I went to go work for Habitat for Humanity of Fresno County in California. And it's cliche to say, I had a life transforming experience during that time. Met wonderful people. My faith was challenged and strengthened at the same time. Came back to Delaware, which was my home, knowing I wanted to do this home building, community building work through Habitat for Humanity and was hired 30 years ago by Habitat for Humanity of Newcastle County. And it's been just a wonderful journey in that aspect. The other aspect of my vocation is God kept calling me and seven years ago or so. And last year I was ordained in the United Methodist Church as clergy, as a deacon in the United Methodist Church. So I have two gigs. I have this full-time job with Habitat and then part-time unpaid back through my home church. As a deacon, I work to get the church out into the world and the issues of the world into the church and engage the congregation there. I do some other things in Newark with an interfaith clergy group. And so, you know, just just trying to live my faith and engage with people as God puts them across my path. Kevin, that's so interesting. I was reading in your bio that that you are were recently ordained. I'm just curious to get a little bit more from you about what about your work at Habitat kind of called you into going to seminary and being ordained. I mean, that's a big step for anybody. Yeah. Well, I've always been intrigued and interested in studying and learning more about God. So I think for a long time, I thought, I want to go to seminary. Maybe I'll do that when I retire. and it was interesting a little over seven years ago meeting with different clergy from different churches you know about Habitat and about engaging their congregations with Habitat and you know as we would get to know each other and the conversation would come around I would mentioned just, oh, yeah, I want to go to seminary someday. And this was all right around the time where, you know, God was was nudging me in that direction. And they would go, oh, you know, there's this deacon path in the United Methodist Church. Or you ever thought about being a deacon? And it was like, OK, God, I see what you're doing here. You know, I had, you know, the normal things when when you hear God calling you to do something, I think it's normal to be like, well, how am I going to do that? You know, you start getting ahead of yourself a little bit. It's like, no, I'm just asking you to take one step forward, to be obedient, to just trust. You know, I basically raised my hand in the United Methodist Church's process, candidacy process, and they affirmed that. And the next step was to go to seminary. I went to Lancaster Theological Seminary, and I I went there. You know, they had like an open house. I got to sit in on a class and I immediately was like, this is where I need to be. And so that was that was a wonderful experience. Unfortunately, part of it was during COVID. So we had online classes. But my colleagues in classes, the teachers that all just affirmed, you know, what I think my heart's been longing for for a long time. Hmm. That's amazing. That's really cool. Yeah. I mean, I wonder, like, how do you think that that has has it changed your your work at all with Habitat? Has it changed your perspective? Yes and no. I mean, what's been interesting discerning the deacon path in the United Methodist Church is that I think unknowingly I was doing the work of a deacon all along. You know, I have always loved engaging churches in the work of Habitat and, you know, helping them see this is a way that, you know, congregations can live their faith out into the community. a real tangible way. So from that aspect, it's not changed. You know, it's kind of like I'm still doing what I've always felt called to do. There are still times when I remind, oh yeah, I'm clergy. You know, it just kind of, it's, you know, I don't have, I'm not a pastor of a church, like a traditional clergy person. In some ways, I've always thought of my flock being the staff, the volunteers and the homeowners here at Habitat. So now it's just more formally affirmed. And from time to time, I'll offer communion here at Habitat. I provided in position of ashes at the beginning of Ash Wednesday for any staff that wanted it. So I think there's some other aspects here that's caused me to think about things a little differently and how I engage with folks. And then, you know, my relationship with my church obviously has changed. I've gone from being a lay person to clergy. And so that's become a more formal aspect of my relationship with the congregation there at Newark. That's really interesting to hear how you weaved both together into things that are sort of rituals at Habitat, the fact that you're bringing communion. One of the things I wanted to ask about was, you know, you've been doing this about 27 years, right? Well, I just hit 30 in January. Oh, okay. My 38th year. Nice. I think you said that. Sorry. And what have you learned about, you know, what people truly need from a home besides just shelter? What have you learned about the hope you see and building community? Yeah, I think I thought I probably thought it was just shelter initially. Like when I went out to California, my boss at the time just kind of threw me into the deep end and said, okay, you're going to build a house out in this adjacent community. They'd already picked the family. They were living in basically a shack. They had been renting 12 years. They only had indoor plumbing like the last five years. And so, you know, that was, I think early on, I was really surprised that here in America, the deplorable conditions that people were living in. But over time, I think what has evolved for me is understanding how much, you know, first time homeownership transforms the lives of those homebuyers, but their children forever. You know, we're introducing homeownership to many folks who in the generations before them have never owned a house. And so that becomes the new normal for their children. The expectation that I'll be a homeowner and that, you know, the stability that it provides. We do a survey with our homeowners every other year, you know, and they're telling us their children are doing better in school. They're healthier. year. Their finances are better. They or their children now can entertain going to college or, you know, some sort of advancement in that way. So more than shelter becomes this launch pad for people and their children to more fully live into their potential. You know, that stability, the affordability and the stability that the house, that this opportunity provides really can be a game changer. Kevin, I'm curious, you know, I, um, at the church at our church, Red Clay, um, I, my main kind of ministry is mission and outreach. Um, so, you know, I work with a lot of different organizations, have some relationships in our local schools with some guidance counselors and such. And, you know, the, one of the biggest things I see is, is housing insecurity in our area. I know we have a major housing shortage, inventory shortage. And I'm curious your thoughts, because Wilmington has, they've undergone quite a transformation over the last few years, downtown Wilmington with various kind of big developers buying properties and we've got some new condos and none of which I'm sure would qualify as affordable housing. Maybe you know more about that than I do, but I'm just curious, how do you see Habitat kind of coming alongside all of that development? Is there a place, you know, for more affordable housing and how do you see that, your role in that? That's a great question. And, you know, So Habitat for Humanity has a very recognized brand across the country. So a lot of people think about Jimmy Carter and so forth and so on. And so all across the country and even around the world now, we lend our name and our brand to the issue of housing affordability and insecurity beyond just us building houses. And I'll give you an example of that. We've had to become more aware and understanding of the issues that cause the lack of affordable housing. One of them is the zoning requirements that municipalities have, especially when you start getting out into the suburbs. you find that most of the properties say in newcastle county you know outside the city are zoned in such a way that you can't build any density you know it's quarter to half acre lots and so the number one way you build affordable housing is density um so we lend our name to a a lot of advocacy issues here locally, but around the country as well. And we know that this problem, this housing crisis did not happen overnight. And there's lots of different reasons why, but we're trying to push the needle on all of those things back the other direction that's going to create the conditions where more affordable housing will be built, whether it's by Habitat or anybody. And an example of that would be, you're mentioning Wilmington or where I live in Newark, one of the tools that can be applied is something called inclusionary zoning. And that would be if a for-profit developer is going to build a five, six, seven, eight story building, residential market rate rent, then for the municipality to approve that, You know, what we would push is 20% of these units have to be set aside as affordable. You know, the nonprofits don't have the capacity to build enough housing to meet the need. So in the marketplace, some for-profits need to have both a carrot and a stick, if you will, to be adding to the number of affordable units. So we're trying to build as many housing units as we can. And given our capacity, we're trying to push these advocacy issues and the zoning and other things, funding issues, so that anybody who's a builder would kind of add to the numbers wherever that is, whether it's in Wilmington or really it has to happen across the state in different areas. because folks who need housing, whether it's affordable rental or affordable home ownership, they live everywhere. So, you know, we also push back against the notion that all the affordable housing should be like in Wilmington or in an urban setting. Teachers, nurses, people in customer service, et cetera, they want to live or they are living everywhere. And those are, you know, by and large, people working who still who need affordable housing. Right. That's such an important point. I think, you know, we're located out in the Pike Creek area, you know, and we see so many of those families. You know, we try to work really locally because, you know, it used to be, I think, in Wilmington, a lot of the need was downtown. And now that's that's changing, I think, and has been changing over the last couple of decades. So it's great to hear that you guys are focused on that as well. And I know you've also been involved on the east side as well. Is that something you guys are still doing with those renovations down there? Yeah. Yeah. So we, you know, we're Habitat Newcastle County. We build homes across Newcastle County. We are finishing up three houses in Middletown where we've done 36 previously. The Route 9 corridor near the Memorial Bridge, we're very active over there. And then we work primarily in three neighborhoods in Wilmington. And two of those, including the east side, we've made longer term commitments, not just to build new houses, to renovate homes, but to also work more closely with the residents and the civic leaders. And so we have an initiative called Neighborhood Revitalization where, you know, working with the neighborhood, what we've ended up doing is we've served as a convener to bring the neighborhood together to create a new neighborhood plan for the east side. We did that last year. And now we're convening those residents and stakeholders to try to implement that plan now. So, again, that's not what people normally think about habitat, but our commitment is so deep in that community. And for it to thrive, just like we're trying to enable our homeowners to thrive, we want that neighborhood where we've seeded so many habitat homeowners, we want the neighborhood to thrive. So, just last Saturday, we did what's called a rock the block where we do neighborhood cleanups. We help the neighborhood with a couple of community gardens that they're preparing for the season. Again, you know, housing makes a big difference, but also where the housing is located and what the conditions are like around there matter. So we've just found over time our program has evolved to be concerned about the neighborhoods as well. That's awesome. Just building those relationships. It's so important. One of the things that I think is tremendous here, just in the idea of pulling community together like that, that is also definitely a theme here where, you know, some nonprofits are pulling people who they're actually serving together to serve other people. Kind of like we heard recently, not-for-profit New York City Grassroot Groceries is pulling together people to have like food parties where the neighborhood residents get together, take fresh food to the same areas that they live to kind of reduce the stigma and to have, you know, and they will also at some time receive deliveries also. So I think that that's huge to be giving people that show that there's people just like them helping them. And it's not somebody coming down from, you know, an ivory tower to provide help. I think that's wonderful. Yeah, you bring up an aspect of our ministry that people don't always readily recognize. You know, they see the housing providing the housing opportunity. But we're bringing together diverse people to work together to build the housing, to work on these neighborhood things. And there are folks who otherwise wouldn't normally interact. And I think that's part of building the kingdom is breaking down the silos, these barriers that society or we've just all kind of learned or been, you know, not been attuned to interacting with people of differences than ourselves. So, you know, someone from the suburbs comes to work on a Habitat house in a neighborhood that all they've heard about is it's unsafe or they've read in the paper. But then they're there and they have a different experience or they're working people across different racial backgrounds or, you know, experiences. And you start to see the other in a different way. You know, I've had countless Habitat homeowners say to me, I never knew people cared until I went through your program. And what they're saying is all the volunteers, the staff that poured themselves into them, they were just overwhelmed that somebody cared. So I think that's the other ministry aspect. It's very much about people to people and relationships. I mean, all ministries like that. Right. So we try not to get lost in the hammers and the nails piece. You know, how do you guys see it? Habitat, the role of the church, you know, working with you at any faith based organizations like what is specifically do you see us doing? Because I know you work with government, you work with other nonprofits. I'm really curious, you know, how you see specifically the church. Well, Habitat is a Christian ministry. You know, we're seeking to put God's love into action by building homes, communities, and hope. And so we see our partnership with the church, again, the church at large, and even other faith groups as a natural partner. Right. We're all trying to keep God at the center. And so for us, having churches work with us just feels like it's a natural partnership and an affirmation of what we're all trying to do. I think, you know, like I mentioned before, churches are there nurturing people's faith and their discipleship. And I think Habitat can be a way for people to express that faith and discipleship in a tangible way. But also I see it evolving, right? In most cases, churches think about volunteering, which is great. And that could be swinging a hammer or volunteering at our restores or on a committee or something. But the other thing that's evolving is faith groups are more and more starting to look at the assets that they have, the property that they own as a tool to develop affordable housing. And I'll give you an example. We are actively working with the Newcastle Presbytery right now. They have identified, number one, they want to do something about affordable housing, and they identified property in Glasgow. It's three acres. And basically, Habitat is the developer of that property for the Presbytery to develop 23 units of new housing. And so all across the country, I think faith groups are taking a hard look at, you know, how can we be in our own way developing affordable housing is such a huge issue. So I'm really encouraged that the churches are looking at that aspect. There's no easy properties to develop anymore in Newcastle County, for example. We do a lot of infill. And so the fact that churches are willing to look at their own properties that are being unused. Sadly, some congregations that are maybe, you know, smaller congregations, maybe that have property around them. So that's a real opportunity. I think it's also another way that churches are demonstrating their faith in Christ to say, look, this is what we have to offer. to meet this need out in the community. Yeah. When you say, you know, they're taking a hard look, I mean, that really is very apropos because like you say, a lot of these churches are struggling or their buildings are not as full as they once were. But it's an incredible shift, you know, that they're able to now see themselves in a different way. And I just think that's awesome that you guys are coming alongside them there. and kevin you dropped a term what does infill mean yeah so that would be uh you look at an existing neighborhood and there might be uh vacant lots um throughout the neighborhood i'll give you a couple of examples um out in the county we work with a community called simon's gardens. And when it was planned, there were vacant lots on some corners that the county owned and maintained. Well, the county got tired of cutting the grass and they said, well, you know, who could we work with? And, you know, we've developed three or four houses on those lots that were not being used. Or you might have an abandoned house that gets torn down. So that's more the kind of the infill in existing neighborhoods where we look to add more homeownership, new construction. Got it. Does Habitat keep kind of like a giant map of everything that's happening in the New Kessel County area? Do you guys have like, you know, sort of strategy of where you could go and where you probably would be best not to move to? That's part of my job is to always be looking for property. And so it's a combination of the neighborhoods we're already building in where opportunities present themselves. And we've done renovation of existing homes. We've demolished properties. We've done five projects totaling over almost 60 homes through the Brownfield program through DENREC, where there's some contamination in the soil. but we also will look for larger things like I mentioned about the property in Glasgow that usually have unique or challenging aspects to them that you have to overcome including in some cases depending on where the property is community opposition You know, the NIMBY term, not in my backyard. So that's part of it is kind of looking across the whole gamut of Newcastle County, you know, what we could develop, what we could afford, what are the conditions there. You know, some things would be too far flung from where maybe people live already. But by and large, you know, looking across the county, for example, we have to keep our eyes open and options open to what might present itself. And am I also correct that you all are lenders as well? Do you all also offer mortgages?- Yeah, so that's the, I think one of the main unique things about Habitat that people don't recognize. The clients that we serve are applying to Habitat for our zero interest mortgage. So most nonprofit housing developers will get a construction loan and the home buyer goes and gets their own mortgage out in the market so that the nonprofit developer pays off their construction loan. Our model is we're raising cash, grants, government money, faith groups, corporations to build the unit and then selling it to the home buyer at either the appraised value or the total development cost, whatever is less. And through this zero interest mortgage, which when Habitat was formed in its Christian roots. You know, this is found in Exodus. You shouldn't charge interest to your poor brother in your land. And so it's really, again, there's some other scripture in Deuteronomy that talks about freely lending to those in need. So it's the aspect of what the working low to low to low income people need is an affordable mortgage. But in most cases, their credit's not going to be near perfect. So they're going to pay a higher interest rate if they go through the conventional means. So it's kind of flipping it on its head. Habitat is the one taking the risk, the chance on getting paid back. We're not that mortgage that we originate is not backed by anybody. But the way that we're, from a business standpoint, managing that risk is working with folks, sometimes nine months to a year while they do their sweat equity. And we do all this training to try to guarantee success on the back end. So it's about investing in them because they also are investing in us, right? By paying their mortgage back to Habitat, that forwards our mission and our building projects. I would imagine that's a fairly undervalued thing that you all are doing. I mean, you know, I've worked with families who can't even qualify for rental property. So, you know, having that in homeownership is just what a service. I mean, that's amazing. And I think that's not really well understood. And, you know, we take the time to try to explain the difference between, OK, you're ready to buy a house. You're going to go pay, what, six and a half percent interest versus Habitat of zero. You're almost paying for twice a house over the course of a mortgage by doing that. You know, and everybody wants to have choice. Even folks who are low to high income who want to be homeowners, they want to have choice on where they want to live. And that's what we're trying to do is present what we think is the best choice here in the situation. Yeah, we build in some of the sometimes in the most challenged neighborhoods, but we're also changing those neighborhoods at the same time, like the east side. You know, the east side has had a really poor reputation for a long time. Homeownership rate's only been 30%. Our average median income has been about $30,000. But through our efforts and other nonprofits that we work with, we're changing the homeownership rate. The state just put in a $100 million elementary school, Maurice Pritchard. So and we've also done 150 repairs for non habitat homeowners, many of them seniors. So that's the stability we're trying to create in these neighborhoods and change the dynamic. That's great to hear. It's always been an interest of mine to level off a lot of the inequities that we see. And the more and more I listen to people that are helping, there are so many ways that people are trying to sort of, I'll call it leveling off the differences between people who have food insecurity, housing insecurity. I think, you know, there's the folks that are paving the way for the future and then those who are, you know, just supplying food or supplying housing on the temporary basis. And not that anything is working perfectly, because if it was working perfectly, we wouldn't need these not for profits. But it's nice to see that the gaps are being filled. And it makes me wonder, you know, what is your need now in Habitat for Humanity in New Castle County between volunteers and, you know, could be supplies? We all know non-for-profits need money. But besides donations, what is your immediate need these days? What's kind of keeping you up at night? We would always relish having volunteers. And again, and part of that is determining where someone wants to serve with their gifts and talents and matching them up to the different aspects of our organization. It's not just coming out swinging a hammer, although we would welcome that. And people don't have to have any experience to come out and do that. So, you know, having people put their gifts and talents and that could be on a committee, could also maybe be on our board, could be on our fundraising committees. We have a couple of fundraising events a year. That's the horsepower in the organization, right? We also have two restores, right? We have two thrift stores. We handle construction material, household goods, furniture. So we're always looking for quality donations of materials from households and from businesses. We just started a donor recognition program for businesses, many of whom are donating brand new items to us. And so the restores, anybody can shop there, anybody can donate. The proceeds come back right into our programming. So we believe that not everybody in Newcastle County even knows about the restores, about the opportunity to work with us. So that would be another opportunity. I think also one of the challenges that we have is getting the word out, not only just about the restores, but about who we serve and who qualifies. Van, you mentioned, right, there are different organizations serving different people at different parts of the housing continuum. So, you know, Habitat does not serve the homeless. We're serving folks who are financially ready and I think mature enough to become homeowners in our homeownership program. But I think people think we serve the homeless. So as much as people interact with different clients of different needs to help them understand who to go to for which aspect of the housing continuum. And I think there's some people who would benefit from Habitat who think, oh, well, that's for somebody who's down and out. Now it could be for you. You ought to check us out. Our repair program is similar, right? We're looking at existing homeowners who earn 80% or less of the area median income and most likely have some sort of repair needs in their home. And we do free repairs. That part of our program is all subcontracted work because we're doing major repairs, replacing roofs, furnaces, water heaters. So not yet on the volunteer side, but that could be an option in the future, depending on the kind of repairs in somebody's house. So really, as well known as our name is, there's some aspects of what we do. Right. We don't give away homes who we're serving that we always need that accurate communication to be out there as well to the community. I'm curious, you know, where are you seeing in Newcastle County? Where are you seeing hope? You know, where where are you encouraged with with what's going on, you know, in the community? So it's it's extremely unfortunate we have a housing crisis. One of the hopeful things is that a larger segment of our community, especially those who are able to make decisions about different things, now know that the importance of affordable housing. It used to be when I would go talk to groups, oh, yeah, yeah, housing. Yeah, we know that's important. But now, no matter who I talk to, whether it's in health care, education, government, their number one issue is affordable housing. So I'm hopeful that because it's now become more aware that we together can get behind and put together the solutions that are going to create change. I was honored to be part of the state's affordable housing task force that the governor put together last year. And we came up with, I think, 75 recommendations. And so what gives me hope, too, is that there are a lot of people pulling on the rope of this issue. And that change is starting to happen. It happens slowly. There are lots of examples across the country of other states and municipalities making decisions, courageous decisions to make change. So I'm hopeful that the state, the county, the city, all the municipalities will realize, look, you know, my coworker can't afford affordable housing or my child can't. So I've got to work to do something about it as well. You know, I continue to just be buoyed by all the people that support Habitat, who get our message, what we're doing, and how much they give up themselves. That's always a hopeful sign to me. Interesting to bring in. Is that the idea of politics? Is that something volunteers can also lean into? I mean, it sounds like a dumb question asking it, and I'm kind of on the tail end of a cold here, so my brain isn't firing all six cylinders. But yeah, where does that, does that ever help? No, I'm glad you brought that up, because I mentioned we're involved in a lot of advocacy issue. And I think that, I know people get uncomfortable when you talk politics. We're not talking about bipartisanship. We're talking about zoning and other kind of things that will move the needle on more housing being built. What will take the pressure off of families trying to make ends meet. But it does require people lending their voice or their email to write to politicians and say, this issue matters to me. Or this particular thing you're looking at voting on matters to me. And just, and I think taking the time to understand the threads and how things change and moving beyond, I think, our own personal ways that, you know, oh, if I get affordable housing built near me, what might that do to my property values? How about what about the quality of life for people? And I got to look at my stereotypes of who might live near me if there's more affordable housing. Like, don't I want more and more people to thrive? Do I believe in abundance or I might have a scarcity mindset and just it being about me? So I think moving people from bipartisanship to advocacy and understanding the issues that political leaders can have effect on and how they can affect them. Yeah, I personally have a tendency to these days back away from anything that sort of borders or digs into politics. But I think you have a great point where we can just get on a very local level in our community and start to change some of the thinking that our neighbors have about not in my neighborhood philosophies and try to bend things so that they, you know, live in a little bit more equitable community. And that's something I know I'm going to definitely take away from this conversation as I live in a very sort of secluded area near Hokus. And, you know, I I like my seclusion and I don't think I don't think that helps the person who's struggling. So that's something I need to take away and reflect on myself. I think also there's another level of awareness that we're trying to influence that, you know, the person who's a caregiver looking after my mother-in-law needs housing and shouldn't have to drive an hour to come take care of my mother-in-law. Right. It's understanding that there's people serving us every day in our communities who aren't asking for a handout. They're just asking structurally that that the numbers work, that they can survive, you know, and make ends meet. And so understanding that I think the bipartisanship has thrown all this loaded stuff at people and they can't see through that. No, this is just basically about a fundamental level of equity, of fairness, of opportunity for people. That's really good. I think that is a great way to put it, Kevin. And I, you know, I think this inequity is coming to our all of our doorsteps now. We're seeing it, you know, kind of play out in the news, you know. So just I think that's what's so great about what Van, you and Nate are doing with this podcast and what, Kevin, you're doing, obviously, with Habitat. It's, you know, we've got to hold on to these positives. Like, how are people helping? Because it's really amazing what you can do on the local level and the small things that affect change. So just holding on to those hopeful elements is, I think, so important. So we really appreciate what you are doing. Thank you. And I appreciate that you all are raising issues on having folks, you know, having this podcast so that, you know, trying to trying to get the message to people. We can all like operate in our own even communication silos and keep hearing the same messages. Sometimes it's hard to be open to seeing and hearing different voices. So I appreciate the opportunity to be on here. And look, what I've also learned is housing, affordable housing, real estate development are complex issues. They're hard. They're hard issues sometimes to adequately communicate to people. You know, people say to me, why does it cost so much to build a house? Well, it does. You know, the material costs have skyrocketed. What I paid for a lot before COVID, it's almost three or four times now more expensive. So these are complex things, right? And it seems like our society is only getting more complex. Unfortunately, I don't have easy solutions. But it's like, come on, folks, roll up your sleeves and participate. And we'll all have a better community and better livelihood for people if we just engage somewhere or the other.