Ep 3. Do I really need to network?

🎙️ Welcome back to IPAA Insiders! This podcast continues to be your essential guide to navigating your career and thriving in your public sector role. Designed to answer your burning questions, each episode delivers actionable insights from experienced professionals inside and outside the sector.

🌟 Episode Highlight: In our third episode, we tackle the topic of Networking. Liz Gould, Mark Webb, and Donna McLeod explore what networking truly means, why it’s essential for career success, and how to approach it in a way that works for everyone.

Key Takeaways:

• The psychology of networking: Liz Gould highlights how building professional connections serves as a "protective factor" against work stress and burnout, fostering collaboration and growth.
• Practical strategies: Donna McLeod shares tips like setting specific goals at networking events, such as making five meaningful connections.
• Networking mindset: Mark Webb emphasises viewing networking as an opportunity for genuine curiosity and long-term relationship building rather than a transactional activity.

🎧 Whether you love it or dread it, this episode offers fresh perspectives and practical advice to help you navigate networking with confidence and purpose.

Tune in now to discover how to build professional relationships that advance your career and enrich your work life!

SHOW CREDITS
Host: Jo Rose
Writers: Alessia Campagna, Nicola Hardy and Jo Rose
Producer and Editor: Alessia Campagna
Technical Producer: Anthony Watson
Executive Producers: Jo Rose and Nicola Hardy

Music Credits:
Let The Good Times Roll: Music from #Uppbeat
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Enchanted Puzzle: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/andrey-rossi/enchanted-puzzle
License code: YTN0OYX8RBDDUQ73

Easy Flow: Music from #Uppbeat
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Not That Easy: Music from #Uppbeat
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On Tiptoes: Music from #Uppbeat
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We would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which the podcast is taking place today. We pay our deep respects to all Elders past, present and emerging. We would also like to extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Transcript

 IPAA NSW acknowledges the traditional owners of the lands and waters this podcast is recorded on and pay our respects to elders past and present.  Through sharing stories on IPAA Insiders, we pay homage to the rich story telling history of the world’s oldest living culture, the traditional custodians of the lands on which we live, work and play. We extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander People listening today.

Welcome to IPAA Insiders, the podcast that takes the topics that are top of mind and shares unique perspectives and actionable advice from senior leaders, blue sky thinkers, and IPAA members across the sector.

Jo Rose

Today we’re tackling a topic that polarises a lot of people: Networking. 

I hear from you, our members that you either love it or hate it.

But here’s the thing, networking is simply building work relationships that help everyone involved. 

It's creating genuine connections with colleagues and others in your chosen field.

But I get it.

Many of us dread networking.

Maybe its that you don’t feel genuine, or you break into a cold sweat at the thought of walking up to strangers.

Perhaps you're too busy with actual work to "waste time" chatting.

Or maybe, like many of us, you worry you don't have anything valuable to offer.

In the next 30 minutes, we'll break down why building professional relationships matters, especially in the public service where collaboration across agencies is key to serving our communities.

We'll share practical tips that work for everyone – yes, even if you're shy – and we’ll hear from other IPAA Members who've discovered the power of professional connections.

Episode Three – Do I really need to network? 

Liz Gould

We are greater in numbers, on a number of levels. And I'll break it down for you. From an individual level, we're social beings. We like to be socially connected with each other. We like to know what's going on. Being connected allows forms of communication. It doesn't matter whether you identify as an extroversion preference or an introversion preference. It actually doesn't matter. We're social beings. So it's important on that level in terms of getting information, in terms of feeling connected and that sense of purpose and that sense of group.

Jo Rose

If you’ve been with us since Episode One chances are, you will recognise that voice - it’s Liz Gould, IPAA’s go-to performance psychologist.

Liz’s journey into the psychology of performance began in the early 80s. when as a teen. she was absolutely amazed by the level of intensity, effort, and performance-under-pressure of the Australian athletes competing at the Seoul 1988 Olympics. 

She learnt that a lot of the success was very much around the psychology of mindset and she’s built a career out of supporting individuals, teams and organisations in a workforce setting to really harness that power.

When I spoke to Liz for this episode, I wanted to get a better understanding of some of the psychology behind Networking and why it’s important in the workplace. 

Liz Gould

What we know in a workplace is what we call a buffering hypothesis, that that social connection is actually a protective factor in terms of managing work -related stresses, particularly when it comes to burnout. So if we're in a high pressure, high performance environment, even a high workload environment, even an environment where there might be a toxic boss, it's absolutely essential. We know it's a protective factor to have good social connection, good relationship with your peers around you. I think the cool kids call it having a work wife or a work husband. So go out and find it. The benefits of that even beyond just going down and having a casual coffee at 10 a or an afternoon walk or you know catching the train you know commuting to and from work and having those informal conversations. The benefit beyond that goes back. That network is going to give you information that you need to think about. Well, how am going to use this information to explore my good to great?

How is that going to help me continue to grow? Who do they know that might get me the information that I need? And the connection that you have creates that authenticity and that trust in that relationship. So they're the people who are going to, behind closed doors without you in it, be able to speak up for you and say, actually, Nicola is amazing. John's amazing. I think you should talk to them a little bit more. They'd be perfect for this role. So in terms of career advancement, it's not necessarily just connecting on LinkedIn, it's actually connecting in person and being able to put a face to the name and a reputation to the name as well and a lot of that comes through social connection.

It is a core capability required for success in the workplace is really remaining engaged with those around you and not necessarily being one dimensional just for the people within your team, but it might be the people within your department, within your division, within the organisation and really looking at opportunities to be able to cross pollinate and connect with each other. So you might work in IT and you might have nothing to do with finance.

But how about having a conversation with somebody at the coffee cart who's linked to finance? You never know where it might lead you. So it's imperative I think for people to remain engaged in networking, both the formal and the informal, because it's going to support all of those career opportunities and you never know when they're going to pop their head up, whether it be now or 10 years from now.

Jo Rose

I really like how Liz has centred the idea of networking around us as social beings. 

So often we think of networking as awkward conversations at events while balancing a coffee cup and trying to remember names.

But if we think of networking as something we can do every day to build “professional friendships" where you share knowledge, opportunities, and support, it makes the idea of networking more broad and certainly more accessible. 

Mark Webb

I'm Mark Webb. I'm the Chief Executive of the Department of Parliamentary Services, which is one of the three agencies that looks after the Parliament of New South Wales. But I'm also the president of IPAA New South Wales, a member-based organisation that you know about, dear listener, because you are listening to a podcast that came from IPAA.

Jo Rose

Mark just celebrated 20 years in senior executive positions in the public sector. It’s a long and successful career that began with an undergraduate degree in engineering and computer science. 

A former IT guy, Mark moved to Canberra where you’re either working for government or working for someone who’s working for government. And his public sector career began.

After a few years Mark fell in love with public service. 

Mark Webb

And so why stick with it for as long as I have. The truth is, and I know you're supposed to say that's because you give back to the community, and of course that's a factor that comes in giving back to the community and knowing that you're doing this not to make profits for an anonymous shareholder but to actually make the society that you live in better. That is of course a huge motivator. But when I started in the public sector I was young and callow and probably wasn't thinking about those kinds of things as much. What really got me involved and kept me involved in the early days was that it was just so damn strategically interesting, like intellectually interesting. When I was in the private sector, we thought a lot about profit and loss. Will this project make money? Will it save money? And that can be really interesting sort of stuff. But then suddenly I was in a world where all of the same skills around economic loss and benefit were there. But you also had to think about environmental cost and benefit, social cost and benefit.

And then try to weave it together to work out what the right thing to do in what was really quite strategically complex areas. So giving back to the community, huge part of it, but also it is just much more intellectually challenging 

it exercised my brain in such different ways that I just kind of fell in love with that complexity and the idea going back to a more, the scorecard is dollars and cents and that's it. That's never appealed to me going back in that kind of space. So that's what's kept me going over the 20 years.

Jo Rose

I always love speaking with senior leaders with tenure in the sector. 

And I asked Mark what he thought about purpose led leadership and why that's important for public sector.

Mark Webb 

I think that most people that make their career the public sector have a sense of purpose based leadership somewhere in their mix. 

If you've put your hand up to move into leadership roles and you've biased towards the public sector.

A lot of people in leadership roles could probably make more money in the private sector. So if they were driven just by cash rewards or things like that, they wouldn't probably be in the public sector. So I think everyone has an instinct or it, but I think what can be a real superpower for somebody in the public sector is if you take that instinct towards that, purpose led leadership or purpose based leadership.

Take that instinct and you turn it into a driving force for the way you approach, management leadership in the public sector. You, uh, tap into that purpose. You realize that probably if you're driven by that purpose, many of the people around you are driven by that purpose. Can you clearly articulate that?

The purpose that you that you have all that your agency has. Can you use it as a way of motivating people around you? Is it a touchstone that you go back to to say, Hey,  is what we're doing actually taking us towards that purpose? Or do we need to think differently about it? One of the things I sometimes talk about is the complexity of the public service.

The fact that we have to take so many different things, into account. And I'll be perfectly honest with you, there are things that I've worked on that I still don't know whether we did the right thing or, or, or not. It may be in 20 years time, we might be able to see what the impact of it all was.

But what keeps you going in that kind of environment is that, is that understanding of purpose and the understanding of why. You were doing things. It's a wonderful motivator. It's a great touchstone and a way of just keeping a sanity check on whether what you're doing is in the right direction.

Jo Rose

Mark’s currently a senior leader within the public service. So, I wanted to know how he has incorporated networking into his career trajectory and if he’s been strategic about it all along. 

Mark Webb 

So the issue of networking comes up a lot and I think it's one of those concepts that everybody agrees is probably good for you, like taking medicine and going to the doctors and things that are good for you but seem really painful to do and not really sure how to go about doing it. 

There's a couple of things that I've pointed to in my career that have really helped me in the networking space. 

The first thing I would say is I have never had a singular mentor. Many people talk about they've sought out and gained a singular mentor who has sponsored their career or done things like that. Of course, that is a version of networking and it can be a really powerful thing, but that's not something that I've ever had

What I have tended to do is try and take little bits of experience and knowledge from lots and lots of people. The only way you can do that is if you meet lots and lots of people.

And so one of things I would say is that if you are looking at networking, how do you expose yourself to the broadest range of people, people that are not just in your organisation, although people in your organisation definitely count for that, and how do you move beyond that to a broader range of people.

Now for me, when I joined the New South Wales public sector  I was working in the Premier and Cabinet one of the things the Deputy Secretary that I worked to at the time said early up, I said, look I'm new to New South Wales, I know a lot of people in the Commonwealth, I don't know many people in New South Wales, public sector, and she said you should go and join IPPA. Why go and join IPPA? Well, because you will be exposed to not just people, not just people in Premier and Cabinet, but you'll talk to people from across the whole sector, you'll get to tap into a lot of different thoughts and the like. So that's why I joined IPPA in 2008. It was to build networks. 

Jo Rose

By my calculations having joined IPAA NSW in 2008, Mark would have attended over 100 networking events, and I’d say that’s probably a pretty conservative estimate.

So with all this experience under his belt, I was interested to know how he approaches networking. 

Mark Webb

Now, I think sometimes people think, I've got to be networking, I've got to have my five questions that I'm going to ask and I'm going to approach people and then regardless of whether they seem happy to see me or unhappy to see me I'm going to tell them the five questions and blah blah.

That's usually not a good strategy.

I can tell you that there have been, say, an IPAA event that I've been to where I've gone fully intending to talk to people, but everyone seems to be talking in little groups and having really good conversations, and I haven't wanted to um break into any of that or disrupt any of that. And to be perfectly honest, I've listened to the presentation. I've pretended to look to see whether I've got emails on my phone for 20 minutes after the end of the presentation.

and then I've um gone home not having talked to anybody through the thing. But  than the next event that I go to that I don't know anyone where I happen to get into a conversation with the person sitting next to me and then have this brilliant exposure to a wonderful part of the public sector that I never even dreamed existed.

So don't view every networking opportunity as a make or break, win or lose, I must talk to 10 people every time, otherwise I'm a failure kind of thing. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't happen. It's a numbers game. It's about putting yourself into networking situations as much as possible and making sure that when you do get to talk to someone, you don't do it from the perspective of this is going to advance my career. You talk to someone from the perspective of I'm genuinely curious to hear more about you and what you do and how it works and what your part of the public sector looks like. If you take that more genuine approach, it'll be amazing when you think back on your year, you'll be amazed at how many experiences, connections, thoughts that you've had. 

Jo Rose

These are great tips. And I know we’ve all been there when the networking event has been more ‘awkward standing’ than ‘powerful networking’.

But I was also interested in Mark’s thoughts around what Liz was talking about earlier, those more informal networking opportunities that take place every day within our organisations. 

Mark Webb 

Being broadly networked within an organisation is incredibly important.

It's amazing how much we think of as being competence, my competence, my ability to do things, how good I am at my job. It's amazing what a big proportion of that is knowing who to call in your organisation. If you’ve had the experience of moving between organisations, and that's happened to me a lot in my career, you go from feeling really competent in your old organisation, and then the first couple of weeks in a new organisation, you feel like you just don't know what the hell you're doing and why...

Half the time it's because you used to know that it was Mary in IT that you call whenever your computer goes on the fritz. And now you don't know who it is, so you actually have to use the help desk. mean, that's terrible. It take’s takes  Knowing who to talk to, how to talk to them, this is incredibly important part of getting stuff done within an agency. So yes, networking more broadly and forums like IPAA forums can be wonderful for that broad networking, but also make sure you're networking within your organisation as well, connecting with people, that you're giving as much as you get from people and it's amazing how much that can boost both your competence and your reputation for competence in the organisation as well.

Donna Mcleod 

As I reflect on my career, what I would have done differently, I think I would have sought out mentors and coaches much earlier in my career. I think that sort of structured guidance and being able to learn from those people that have walked the path, it's invaluable. There's nothing like a pair of old eyes where people can say, I've had that situation.

I did this and it was a disaster or I did this and it had a great outcome. Let's talk about it. I think also investing in building strong networks as early in your career as you can because they're ultimately the foundation as you progress throughout your career. And through networks, you get new opportunities created for you. You get to build different knowledge. And you've also got people that you can celebrate the good times with but also when you have a really bad day, they're a safe space for you.

Jo Rose

That’s Donna McLeod. She’s the Director Workforce Capability and Talent at the Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development. 

In Episode 2 we heard about Donna’s move from Big 4 consulting into the public service.

What struck me most about her story was the role that networking played in helping her decide to leave the private sector behind. 

I asked Donna what she thought about the power of networking and what tips she had to share.

Donna McLeod 

I think networking is so important and often really overlooked or people do use the excuse that I'm an introvert, you or I'm junior, I've got nothing to offer. I don't meet people well. I always think create opportunities. So always ask people who could you connect me to and then take time to meet with that person and

Probably the conversation is 30, 70. 30 % you're telling them about yourself, 70 % you're being curious about them, their life, their job, their work, their family. It's then I think the following up after.

The other thing that I found that I hold myself to account too, because I don't think anybody ever gets to the point that they're super excited about a networking event, but you know, there's usually a bigger purpose, a panel interview or a guest speaker and then networking is part of.

I will always, every single without fail networking event, I will say to myself, you have got to meet five people and get five new contacts. And whether that takes you 30 minutes or an hour and a half, you cannot leave until you've got five contacts. And you'll be surprised how quick I can do it now. But I also think it gives you motivation. When I started, you know, I was like, okay, I'll start, I'll meet two new people. And even that was a bit of a challenge when I was more junior. Now it's five, and sometimes I'll still stay around after that, but that's my goal for every networking event, five new connections. And then I follow up with them after, but never about, you do this for me or can you help me with this? It will be, I saw an article about this. You mentioned the other day you were really interested in it. It might be artificial intelligence, but I'll do something personal so they know I heard them.

Jo Rose

Donna and Mark’s tips for networking are so good, that it got me thinking about all of the other networking gems our IPAA members would be able to share.

So, we grabbed the mic and headed to the most recent Women in Leadership Networking event to hear from the people out there, doing it.

Hi, I'm Ali Cavill. I'm business partner at Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development. And I've been at the department for four months, but I've been within New South Wales government for more than 12 years. So my go-to conversation starter is usually what inspires you, what makes you happy, what absolutely drives you to jump out of bed in the morning, get excited about starting the day and keeps you going throughout the day, even when things get busy, hectic and through the tough times. 

Kia ora. My name is Bea Rain, and I am from Department of Communities and Justice, and I've currently undertaken a contract with Homes New South Wales. Oh, go-to conversation starter. I guess it's kind of hard to pinpoint, but it depends on the situation. If I am standing in line and I see someone who might be of a similar background to me, and a cold background, my heritage is Polynesian with a bit of European thrown in. I tend to, if I see someone who is Pacifica or Māori, I tend to reach out to them and say hello. So that's a go-to for me.

 But also if there's someone who might be of a cold background, who just looks interesting, they might be wearing a funky outfit. So my go-to would be, oh, hey, I love what you're wearing. Is that cultural? And then try and start that conversation there. It's usually just hello and how are you going? And then just see what happens from here. Hi, I'm Michelle Klikaski and I work at Service in NSW which is part of the Department of Customer Service. I always like to start a conversation with what brought you here? What catches your interest that this event presented to you? This year, we held eight Women in Leadership networking events, exactly like this one. It's an amazing privilege to bring together so many talented and diverse women across the NSW Public Sector. It was the perfect opportunity to hear from them about why they network. I network with a sense of curiosity, so I'm really quite interested in what other people are doing and where they're working and what other agencies actually exist, because knowing that there's more than 90 different agencies, it's mind-blowing what's out there.

My name is Abhi Josie. Working in the government and especially in the post-COVID world, we can all get a little bit isolated. Then it's nice to know what's happening in the other parts of the government sector as well. Currently, with all the restructuring that's happening, this is a good time to know how others are coping with it. What are the pinch points, what are the pain points, and how are they coming out of it? Because some departments have already gone through the restructuring and some are just at the initial stage, so it's good sharing of notes. My name is Serina, I work for New South West Health. I network to meet people who I can learn from, so identify people I can connect with, who I can work with, who can help me understand different perspectives. And I network for career advancement opportunities.

Hi, I'm Tamara Laser. I work at the Department of Parliamentary Services in Parliament House. I network for a few things. I am definitely an extrovert, so I love getting that energy and giving energy to people and just genuinely helping people. It sounds really funny, but just to chat to people and I get excited when I learn new things, that people, what they're doing, and I enjoy sharing what I've been doing. We know that networking can be an effective way to accelerate your career. Here's what our networkers had to say about how building connections has helped them. I guess I have met quite a few interesting people throughout my career, but also just being brave enough to go and see someone who thought, oh, you look pretty interesting, or someone who's presented a really awesome keynote and reached out to them and just thanked them for sharing their knowledge. And so I guess where this has reaped benefits for me from a professional perspective is that, you know, someone may have recommended me as being someone who might be good for a particular role or be a good addition to a team, or just being involved just being involved in other projects and initiatives across the broader organization. So I guess it's reaped benefits in that way. But also, you never know who you run into and who might be taken with the way that you engage with them and just reach out. And I always see networking as a way to not only help others, but a way of just being a good human. And I think that's what we all need, right? In this particular time in history, you know, where, you know, with some of the stuff that's going on in the political world, that we've lost a little bit of our humanity and it's good to get that back. 

I'm Ali Hopkins, Senior Project Manager in the Corridor Identification and Protection Team at Transport for New South Wales. But a time when networking really helped my career is probably literally as we speak. I'm at a networking event and I'm meeting some people who work in the same branch as me who I'd never met before. And given that we're going through a restructure, it's really handy to actually start connecting the dots in who I'm going to be working with over the next few months and years potentially in how our division is now being put together to sort of identify some people I'm actually are going to be really handy connections and also really lovely people to work with in the future. 

I'm Florence from DCJ. It really did with the networking. Sometimes it's who you know for what people can help. It's not just your immediate work and keep that as a reference and you never know what you would need each other or when you will run into each other again. Because I've worked for a few departments and built up some connection, I have to say, I have used my network to get things done before. 

My name's Nicole Marks, and I'm a finance manager at NSW Police. Networking particularly, so I was pretty poor at it in the private sector. I'd go along to a few events, but I always found them very awkward.

Since I've joined the public sector, joining Ipaa has actually been, for me, really, really good. It was my first government job. Coming to the Ipaa events, for me personally, I've made a number of network connections across different areas and along with finance, and they really helped elevate, I guess, my confidence to be able to apply and look for other jobs. And because of the encouragement and the support I got at one of the networking events, I've actually landed my next job and I'll be moving on next year. So if it wasn't for the support and encouragement of that, I don't think I would have been as confident to apply. Thank you, Ipaa. After hearing so many powerful examples from people who like networking, we asked them to share their tips. I would just say that everyone's in the same position. We all feel awkward. We all feel, you know, shy about putting ourselves out there.

But deep down when you connect with people, most people just want to learn to meet someone new, learn about their experience. So don't be shy, I guess, is my tip. We're all shy. We're all nervous. If you're at a networking event, people are there to network, not judge. Just don't be shy. Put up a smile and join any conversation. You don't need to butt in. Even you listen in, you may learn something and eventually connect it with the like mind. All the people who show up in those networking events, they are all with the like mind and they have that open mind to connect with the others and you won't be rejected. Just be yourself. Don't be afraid to just talk to people. Honestly, I find sometimes the networking events, it's a bit awkward. You feel a bit like, oh, I can't go and talk to these people or I don't know anyone at these events, but I've gone to a lot of events where I've never not, I haven't known a single person and it's literally just being like, hey, just want to introduce myself. 

I'm Jamira and this is what I do. Yeah, I feel like people are pretty accepting. You're willing to go put yourself out there. My favourite networking tip would be to set the fear aside. Generally, you walk into a room of strangers and everybody's got the same worries, concerns. They don't know someone. How are they going to start that conversation? I believe you just need to go for it. You don't know what you're going to uncover by speaking with someone. You also don't know where they've come from or what their position is or how they're feeling that day. So just introduce yourself and enjoy the interactions.

My name is Alex and I'm from Education. My favourite networking tip is just to get out there. There's nothing that you're going to say that's going to embarrass yourself because everybody's in the same boat. Let's be real. Not many people actually love networking, but you got to do it. It's a great way to meet people. If you just take the pressure off yourself, it's not a transaction, it's just you having a conversation, then I think that puts the fun back into it.

Jo Rose

And that brings us to the end of today's episode. You know, it's fascinating how most of us recognise the importance of networking, yet so many of us hesitate to take that first step. But here's the thing – once you're actually there, in the moment, it's often much less daunting than you imagined. Like any other skill, networking gets easier with practice.

We've talked about informal and formal networking today, and I want to leave you with a practical suggestion. If you're looking for a low-pressure way to start building your networking muscle, consider joining our Coffee Roulette program.

We run these throughout the year, and I can't tell you how many lasting friendships and professional connections have come from these casual coffee catchups, either in person or online. 

And if you want to build one new relationship immediately, connect with me on LinkedIn. 

Until next time, remember: a simple hello can have a huge impact. 

Thanks for listening!

IPAA Insiders is a production of IPAA New South Wales. Our producer is Alessia Campagna with mixing and sound design by Anthony Watson. 

Our executive producers are me, Jo Rose and Nicola Hardy. If there is anyone you know who might get something out of this episode, please share it with them. If you want to ask our community a question, you can message me on LinkedIn.

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