Ep 6. In Conversation with Kathrina Lo

In this special episode of IPAA Insiders, host Jo Rose speaks with NSW Public Service Commissioner Kathrina Lo about her remarkable career and how she sees the evolving landscape of public service.

Key highlights from the episode:

• Career Journey: Kathrina shares how she started at the junior level of public service and rose to become Public Service Commissioner over a 31-year career.
• Mobility Matters: Insights into how lateral career moves helped her develop breadth and depth of experience, and why mobility can supercharge a public service career.
• Purpose-Driven Work: Why a strong sense of purpose and a desire to make a difference continue to drive her work in the public sector.
• Future-Readiness: Thoughts on how individuals can prepare for the changing world of work through lifelong learning and staying informed about global trends.
• Diversity and Inclusion: A personal and professional perspective on why representation in leadership matters, and what needs to change to achieve it.
• Breaking Barriers: Common obstacles to achieving diversity in the sector, and how leaders can take real action to create inclusive, high-performing teams.
• Call to Action: Why young professionals shouldn't wait to "see it" before they believe they can be it, and how everyone has a role in shaping the future of the public service.

This episode is a must-listen if you're interested in authentic leadership, creating positive change, and growing your career in the public sector.

SHOW CREDITS
Host: Jo Rose
Writers: Alessia Campagna, Nicola Hardy and Jo Rose
Producer and Editor: Alessia Campagna
Technical Producer: Anthony Watson
Executive Producers: Jo Rose and Nicola Hardy

Music Credits:
Let The Good Times Roll: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/ra/let-good-times-roll
License code: DNAIHKYCKOUU6HBT

Enchanted Puzzle: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/andrey-rossi/enchanted-puzzle
License code: YTN0OYX8RBDDUQ73

Easy Flow: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/hybridas/easy-flow
License code: R2FTWOYRCB7YOW21

Not That Easy: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/not-that-easy
License code: MYQOVXXWAFZULECH

On Tiptoes: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/on-tiptoes

We would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which the podcast is taking place today. We pay our deep respects to all Elders past, present and emerging. We would also like to extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Transcript

Episode 6 - In conversation with Kathrina Lo 

IPAA NSW acknowledges the traditional owners of the lands and waters this podcast is recorded on and pay our respects to elders past and present.  Through sharing stories on IPAA Insiders, we pay homage to the rich story telling history of the world’s oldest living culture, the traditional custodians of the lands on which we live, work and play. We extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander People listening today.

Music Break 

 Welcome to IPAA Insiders, the podcast that takes the topics that are top of mind and shares unique perspectives and actionable advice from senior leaders, blue sky thinkers, and IPAA members across the sector.

You’re listening to IPAA Insiders voice roll 

Music Break 

Jo Rose Narration 

Welcome to a special episode of IPAA Insiders.

Today I’m sitting down with one of my favourite guests, Public Service Commissioner Kathrina Lo. 

It’s not very often that we get these opportunities to hear from Senior Leaders in the sector and Kathrina really embodies that depth and breadth of what it means to be a public servant. I hope you enjoy our conversation. 

Music End

Jo Narration

Kathrina thanks so much for joining us today on IPAA insiders. 

Let’s start with introducing yourself and how you came to be working in the public service. 

Kathrina 

So my name is Katharina Lo. I'm currently the New South Wales Public Service Commissioner. I've been in the role for nearly five years I've been appointed to the role for a seven year term by the New South Wales Governor. I've been a public servant for 31 years, which probably gives away my age. I've spent most of my career in the New South Wales Public Service, although I did take a detour to the Commonwealth before returning to New South Wales.

Jo Narration

Can you tell us the story of how you ended up in the public service? 

Kathrina Lo

Sure. I studied economics and law at university. In doing the economics degree, the subject I enjoyed most was public sector economics. And in doing the law degree, the subjects I enjoyed most were the public law subjects like constitutional law, administrative law and criminal law. And I do realize that makes me sound like a real nerd. So when it came time to apply for summer clerkships as a law student, which is something you do, in your fourth year of law. Instead of going down the big law firm route, I decided to apply for clerkships with government agencies, given my interest in public law. So I was fortunate to get a summer clerkship with the New South Wales Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, the DPP. At the end of the summer, they asked me to stay on and I've been a public servant ever since.

So I started at the very bottom of the public service ladder. I started as a Clark grade one, two, which is the most junior grade. I worked my way up the ladder and I've worked at nearly every grade or level in the New South Wales public service. I feel very grateful to have had the career I've had in the public service. And I also feel incredibly honored and privileged to be the New South Wales public service commissioner now.

Jo Narration 

Level one all the way to commissioner is amazing! What keeps you in the public service? Why do you stick around?

Kathrina Lo 

Like many public servants, I choose to work in the public service because there's a very clear and strong sense of purpose. We want to serve the community, make a difference, and do work that contributes to the greater good. And I have to say, it's wonderful to work with colleagues and teams that are driven by that same sense of purpose.

Another thing that's kept me in the public service is the nature of the work we do, which is really interesting, challenging and diverse. 

As public servants, we get to work on big issues and tackle big problems such as Aboriginal disadvantage, social cohesion and climate change, just to name a few of the many issues we deal with as public servants.

We're also here to support the community when they need it most, including through emergencies such as bushfires floods and pandemics, the work we do is both impactful and fulfilling. 

As a lawyer, I've done work in the public sector that's just not available in the private sector, such as law reform and advising the attorney general in their capacity as the state's first law officer. So in private practice, the question lawyers have to answer is, how do I apply the law to get the best outcome for my client?

Now as a policy lawyer working in government, which is something I did for many years, the question is, what should the law be? Which is a completely different proposition and a different way of thinking about the law. 

I can honestly say there hasn't been a day during the past 31 years where I've been bored and that's because of the nature of the work we do in the public service.

It's also because of the opportunities for mobility within the public service. So the New South Wales public service is Australia's largest employer. So there are many opportunities to work in different roles and in different agencies. So while I started my career in the legal lane, so to speak, I've been able to change lanes and work in policy, service delivery, and regulation as well as integrity agencies such as the audit office. 

So they're the main reasons I stay in the public service.

Jo Rose

You’ve just described a really varied and fulfilling career.

And it’s interesting that you bring up the concept of Mobility and moving around into different roles. 

That’s the theme of Episode 5 in the series, and I’m interested to know specifically how has mobility played a role in your career?  

Kathrina Lo

Look I think it's really helpful to have both breadth and depth of experience. I think that really helps round you out in the public service. And the benefit of mobility is that it builds out your breadth of experience. Now, during the course of my career, I made a number of lateral moves and that was really helpful in getting that breadth of experience. And also, even though I started in legal and policy roles, once I worked in service delivery roles and regulatory roles and then returned to policy, it just gave me that broader perspective and I became a better policy officer because of it.

Jo Rose

I love that. You know we recently held our annual CEO YP Breakfast and the debate topic was do I need to move sideways or upwards to progress my career?

I feel like a lot of people have this traditional view that the only way to get ahead is to go up but thinking about moving sideways, new projects, new experiences, new budgets you can explore a lot of different opportunities.

It’s something that I really encourage our IPAA members to consider but what’s your advice to senior leaders within the public service who are managing teams who might not want to let their stars go?

Kathrina Lo

Sure. I think as managers and leaders, we like to retain in our team our high performers. But I think we also have a responsibility to support the growth and development of our team members. And sometimes that might mean letting them take up another opportunity in another team, in another organisation, which in the long run, I think, benefits our organisation or the sector as a whole. So it might mean a little bit of sacrifice for the good of your team member and for the greater good as well.

Jo Rose

I want to switch gears here a little bit and get your thoughts on – we’re obviously seeing a lot of chatter and interest in AI and the world of work is changing so quickly so I’m interested in your thoughts on how people of the sector can be prepared for that future. What do they need to be thinking about? 

Kathrina Lo

So I'll touch on a couple of things that I think all of us as individuals can do to prepare for the future. But I also know that there are things that organisations can do, but I'll put that to one side.

So firstly, as individuals, we can keep our knowledge and skills up to date and keep evolving our knowledge and skills as the world changes. So in other words, we need to commit to lifelong learning.

Most of us will not have one job for life, so we need to be prepared to make transitions during the course of our career. 

Some of the jobs that currently exist will change, and some of the jobs that currently exist may not exist in the future. 

There will also be new jobs created in the future, and we don't necessarily know what they will be at this point in time. 

I think it's helpful to... know the times. by this I mean being aware and keeping abreast of issues, developments and trends in the wider world and their implications and impacts. this could include political, geopolitical, economic, social and environmental developments. And I think linked to this is ensuring we have exposure to a range of different views and perspectives so that we're not in our own echo chamber.

Jo Rose

So it’s really interesting you bring up this idea of diversity of thought and how important that is. We’re currently working on an episode about diversity within the public service and what we need to do to create a more diverse working environment. I’m wondering about your personal experience with diversity within your career and how that might have shaped your perspective? Is there a particular pivotal  moment that comes to mind? 

Kathrina Lo

During the course of my career, there have been many times I've been the only woman in a meeting, and more often than not, I've been the only person from a culturally diverse background in a meeting. 

In terms of a pivotal moment, that occurred shortly after I was promoted to a deputy secretary role. I attended a gathering of secretaries, deputy secretaries, and equivalent roles.

I remember the Premier came and spoke with us. when I entered the room, I was struck by how homogenous this group of the most senior leaders in the sector was. And can I say it spurred me into action. I became more vocal about the issue of diversity in senior leadership. I sought a meeting with the then Public Service Commissioner and offered to contribute to any diversity and inclusion work.

being done by the Public Service Commission and they took me up on that offer. And since becoming Commissioner myself, one of my priorities has been to work with the sector to increase diversity in our senior executive cohort. And when I say diversity, I mean diversity in its broader sense, including diversity of background, experience, perspectives, and diversity of thought, which is also very important.

Jo Rose

Absolutely, absolutely. And so why do you think diversity is good for the sector?

Kathrina Lo

The business case for diversity is well established. The evidence shows that diverse organisations and teams perform better across a whole range of metrics, including financial and customer service, and that they're better at managing risk and they're more creative and innovative. 

And this is exactly what we want the public service to be. 

It's particularly important for the public service to reflect the diversity of the community we serve because it enables us to better understand and respond to the needs of the community and ultimately produce better outcomes. the Government Sector Employment Act recognises this. One of the functions the Act assigns to me as Commissioner is to lead the strategic development and management of the sector workforce in relation to equity and diversity, including strategies to ensure the sector reflects the diversity of the wider community.

Jo Rose

It’s a really important remit. So how do we get more diversity in the leadership across the public sector? And my little add on to that is if I'm a young person, what do I need to believe, think or do to keep pushing for it? 

Kathrina Lo

Okay, 

There's no one single strategy or action. I think it's a combination of things. So first of all, we can shape workplace cultures that value diversity and that foster inclusion, belonging and cultural safety. And this of course supports diversity at all levels of the organization. I think as we're developing future leaders, we can ensure our pipeline of leaders is diverse.

And we can also be more thoughtful and deliberate in succession planning. I think we need to challenge stereotypes of what a leader should look, sound and act like, and be open to different leadership styles. we can facilitate access to mentors and sponsors by people who might not have that social capital.

Sponsorship in particular can be really important in reaching leadership roles. Finally, we can make diversity in senior leadership a priority and put the effort in to turn the dial on this. The sector senior leadership is already more diverse now than it was four or five years ago. if I could give an example.

The New South Wales Secretaries Board is the sector's most senior leadership group. There were only two women on this board before I became commissioner and joined the board myself. There were in fact more men named Michael on the board than women at that time. Now with some concerted effort within two years, we achieved gender parity on the board for the very first time. So I know it can be done.

Now to those people who are listening who might be at a more junior level of the sector, you may have heard the term, you can't be what you can't see. I don't believe in that. I believe you can be what you can't see. Somebody has to go first. So why shouldn't that be you or me? And when we get there, we have a responsibility to use our sphere of influence to make it better. for people who come after us. So that would be my suggestion to people who at this point in time can't see a senior leader who looks like them.

Jo Rose

What do you see is the biggest barrier to achieving diversity in the New South Wales public sector?

Kathrina Lo

There are a number of common barriers to achieving diversity. One barrier may be a lack of leadership commitment. So we need genuine buy-in from senior leaders, not lip service or tokenism. And this needs to be backed up by resources, visibility and accountability. 

A second barrier may be inadequate recruitment practices. So if we only rely on traditional recruitment methods or informal networks, it can limit access to diverse talent pools. A third barrier may be stereotyping, prejudice and bias. If we have negative assumptions about certain groups, it can influence our perceptions of competence, leadership, potential and cultural fit. In terms of bias, we may favor consciously or unconsciously other people who share similar backgrounds, interests or traits to us, which could then lead to discriminatory practices in hiring, promotions and decision making. Now another barrier may be inequitable policies and practices. Policies and practices may have the effect, maybe unintentionally, of favoring some groups while excluding others.

A final comment I'd like to make is that in an environment that's fiscally constrained, which is the environment we're currently in as a sector, It may seem easy to cut expenditure on diversity and inclusion initiatives and learning and development programs. However, I think this is a false economy because a few years down the track, we will experience the consequences of a lack of investment in these areas. One final thing I want to say is while diversity is important because it means we have a mix of backgrounds, perspectives and experience in our organisations, the key to leveraging diversity is inclusion, which is all about the culture we create and how we come together and work together.

Jo Rose

We’re coming up to the end of our time together so what’s the final idea you want to leave our listeners with?

Kathrina Lo

I think it's so important for us to be proactive. I hope some of that message comes through that we don't as employees sit there passively and are recipients of things that happen to us. Those things we need to be proactive and manage our own careers and and manage things that we can manage.

Jo Rose

Thanks, Kathrina for making the time to speak with us today. It’s been great to get your perspectives and insights. I really appreciate it. 

Kathrina Lo

Thank you for making it so easy.

Jo Rose

You’re welcome on the show any time!

Episode END 

IPAA Insiders is a production of IPAA NSW. Our Producer is Alessia Campagna, with mixing and sound design by Anthony Watson, our Executive Producers are Me, Jo Rose and Nicola Hardy. 

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