Ep 8 Why is diversity in the public sector so important?

In this final episode of IPAA Insiders Season 1, we dive into a conversation that continues to spark curiosity, reflection, and action: Why is diversity across public sector roles so important?

You’ll hear perspectives from across the NSW public service, including IPAA NSW members and featured guests Gelina Talbot and Jane Spring, who bring deep experience and insight to this evolving conversation. From personal stories to policy-level thinking, their reflections underscore why diversity isn’t just a “nice to have”; it’s essential for fostering trust, driving innovation, and achieving better outcomes.

This episode doesn't aim to provide a single solution. Instead, it offers a range of lived experiences, reflections, and ideas, acknowledging that change takes time and intention.

Whether you’re thinking about how you hire, how you lead, or how you present yourself in your workplace, we hope this episode provides something to reflect on and a way to start the conversation in your own circles.

SHOW CREDITS
Host: Jo Rose
Writers: Alessia Campagna, Nicola Hardy and Jo Rose
Producer and Editor: Alessia Campagna
Technical Producer: Anthony Watson
Executive Producers: Jo Rose and Nicola Hardy

Music Credits:
Let The Good Times Roll: Music from #Uppbeat
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Enchanted Puzzle: Music from #Uppbeat
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License code: YTN0OYX8RBDDUQ73

Easy Flow: Music from #Uppbeat
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Not That Easy: Music from #Uppbeat
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On Tiptoes: Music from #Uppbeat
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We would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which the podcast is taking place today. We pay our deep respects to all Elders past, present and emerging. We would also like to extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Transcript

Acknowledgement of Country 

IPAA NSW acknowledges the traditional owners of the lands and waters this podcast is recorded on and pay our respects to elders past and present.  Through sharing stories on IPAA Insiders, we pay homage to the rich story telling history of the world’s oldest living culture, the traditional custodians of the lands on which we live, work and play. We extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander People listening today.

Music Break 

Welcome to IPAA Insiders, the podcast that takes the topics that are top of mind and shares unique perspectives and actionable advice from senior leaders, blue sky thinkers, and IPAA members across the sector.

Play Tape – You’re listening to IPAA Insiders voice roll 

Music Intro 

Jo Rose

One of the many things I love about the work we do at IPAA, is bringing together so many different people from every corner of the public sector in NSW. 

Just this year, we’ve held events in areas like the Mid-North Coast, Riverina and the Capital Region.

And we hold regular events in Sydney, hosting members from across the Greater Sydney region including the Central Coast, Illawarra and Parramatta. 

I’m joined at events by senior leaders, business experts, young professionals. And hear so many different perspectives, insights and ideas. 

We know that different perspectives and ways of thinking are crucial for workplace success and innovation. 

But it’s also an important factor in the work the public service does, day to day. 

The topic of Diversity and Inclusion in the public sector is a common burning question amongst our members. 

When we asked you what you wanted to know you had many ask questions. 

Questions like: 

Why don’t I see leaders who look more ‘like me’

Are there more people in leadership with a disability than I think? 

What prevents Aboriginal people making it at those very senior levels? 

All those questions are vital to spark conversations, like this episode.  

But we also know that the solution is not a simple one, and is going to take time. 

I think it’s important to call out here, that we’re not going to solve the big challenge of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in the public service in this one 30-minute podcast.

But I do hope, that this episode will contribute to the conversation, and present different ideas and perspectives that encourage more diversity of thought. 

Episode Eight – Why is diversity across the public sector so important? 

<MUSIC CHANGE>

Jo Rose 

The NSW public sector is the biggest workforce in the southern hemisphere. Employing over 450,000 people across the entire NSW geography. 

We're here to serve everyone in NSW, and the way we do that is by making sure that we have diversity of thought, experience and perspective. 

Diversity is not just about cultural or linguistic differences. 

It also includes, age, geography, ways of thinking (I’m talking here about neurodiversity) and other aspects of our lived experience that shape how we see the world. 

We know that a diverse public service workforce that mirrors the society it serves is critical for building legitimacy and public trust. 

But it’s also crucial for effective ways of working, better policy outcomes and more tailored and impactful services. 

A 2020 study from McKinsey looked at the strong business case for diversity, equity, and inclusion. 

They analysed over 1,000 companies across 15 countries

and found that companies in the top quartile for gender diversity on executive teams were 25% more likely to have above-average profitability than those in the bottom quartile.

And those lagging companies in the bottom quartile for both gender and ethnic diversity were 27% more likely to underperform on profitability. 

In the private sector, profitability is of course a core metric for success. 

But what can we take from these findings that’s relevant to our work in the public service?

Well, the research shows that diverse, inclusive teams simply perform better which means they are more adaptable,

can get more done, 

and deliver better results for the communities they serve.

Now, it’s important to call out here that five years on from that McKinsey report we are operating in a very different climate. 

In the US, the DEI space has faced increased scrutiny and opposition

That shift has repercussions here in Australia. 

As we all work through this shift, we wanted to hear from you about what’s working and what still needs to be done. 

So, we put a call out to our IPAA members to ask them to share what diversity means to them and what they think needs to be done to bring more diversity into the public sector. 

<MUSIC CHANGE>

Speaker One

Hi, I'm Chloe from safe New South Wales. To me, diversity means recognizing and valuing the different lived experiences, identities and perspectives people bring to the workplace and in the public service. That's crucial, because when our teams reflect the communities that we serve, we can make better, fairer decisions, and I guess it also means creating spaces where people feel safe to show up as their full selves, because inclusion is just as important as representation.

Speaker Two

Hi. My name is David. I'm a senior service designer in the Customer Experience team at the Building Commission as part of the Department of customer service. Diversity. To me, when I first unpacked this, the first port of call that people tend to think about is cultural diversity, which I think is is very integral into our society as Australia, as a nation. However, the the sort of definition of diversity leans towards not just cultural but also gender, age, religion, sexual orientation, skills, knowledge, experience and to me, Diversity encompasses a rich tapestry of points of view, texture and voices from a range of backgrounds, leading to meaningful outcomes. how can we continue to build a diverse public service? I thinklearning continually from, um, accessibility and, uh, putting that, um, into our product development and service development.

Speaker Three

My name is Erin Casey, Project Coordinator for the NIF project. So to me, diversity means recognizing and valuing the unique perspectives experience and strengths that every individual brings. I truly think that it really goes beyond visible differences, and I believe that it's about supporting and building a culture. I believe true diversity invites us to listen more deeply without judgment on people, and to think more broadly and make decisions that reflect the full community that we serve being in the public service. 

Speaker Four

Hi there. My name is Nick Steep. They/Them, and I'm the diversity and inclusion coordinator with New South Wales State Emergency Service within the Department of Communities and justice. Diversity means to me that everyone, regardless of their background and experiences feels that they belong, whether that be in their workplace, in their communities or in society. we can and must continue to build a diverse public service by ensuring we work within an inclusive and intersectional framework, valuing, promoting and prioritizing diversity in All that we do, especially in the current climate. In my role, I get to champion diversity on a daily basis through supporting the six diversity and inclusion reference groups and coordinating various initiatives to enhance diversity within the New South Wales SES, one thing I am really excited for is launching our reflect Reconciliation Action Plan later this year.

Speaker Five

Hi, my name is Rosalie. I'm employed by New South Wales Health Diversity for me it means being inclusive in terms of having individuals or employees from various cultural background to improve service delivery in all aspect of public service

It brings along different perspectives that leads to effective policies and excellent service deliveries. Diversity can also cause or drive innovation. It encourages and it promotes improved engagements from staff. When the public recognize that they are represented in a public office, I. It somewhat builds trust because somebody there is just like them.

In my role to champion diversity, I'd say that I am an advocate of fairness in the workplace. I believe that everyone must be treated equally and the same regardless of who you are. Or what you are and where you are from.

Speaker 6 

My name's Timothy Kazuo Steains. So my background is First Nations Okinawa. I have the mixed heritage. My dad's white Australian, so. It wasn't really until university where I did a, an honors course in race and that was really the moment where I'd first started thinking about I guess kind of discourses and systems of whiteness, Not just about kinda like racism, as kind of like an explicit, racial slurs or, or whatever.

It's actually, it's deeply embedded in, the way that I think about myself and the way that I interact with others and interact with institutions. And the, particular kinds of norms, that shape the way we interact with each other or the institutions that we are part of or interact with, that it sort of pervades everything.

And it's not just about race, it's also about culture. So that sort of diversity focus has become more part of my life now.

I, um, I often think about, uh, a metaphor used by a feminist philosopher called I. Sarah Ahmed, who talks about, um, heteronormativity, which in the academic world basically means the kind of social norms that make the social world more comfortable for heterosexual people than queer people.

And so she uses this metaphor of the comfy chair. And so you imagine a chair that's comfy, somebody sits in it and it sort of imprints to their body and they keep coming back to this chair. And over time it sort of settles into their body. Um, and for some people. This imprint is really comfortable as well, and they, they also find the chair comfy, but for other people with a different body type, it's, it's not comfortable.

It's actually uncomfortable to sit in that chair, and so she. Um, draws the link to our kind of social norms, , in a, in a particular context. The social norms are set up in a way over time to be comfortable for certain people and uncomfortable for others. Um, and so that's the way she wants us to think about, you know, heteronormativity can, you can think about it with many different ways, and I think kinda racial and cultural diversity, it's sort of a similar thing, the ways of knowing, being and doing that we have in a any given environment.

Can be connected to a dominant culture, and those dominant ways of doing things can be comfortable. For some, there's just seamless. Seamless, you know, for some they've grown up in that space. They can work in that space and grow in a way that aligns with their upbringing. But for other people, it's, it's uncomfortable and there's a lot of work to try and fit into that space or to try and reshape the space.

It's not just about. Like I said, racism is like, like really explicit forms of racism, like racial slurs. It's actually really granular aspects of like the way that we talk to each other, the references that we use, um, you know, um, yeah, the language that we use, um, the, the, um, ingrained understandings or beliefs that we have, um, that are all part of the, the dominant culture.

So I think that education around that stuff is the first step and that has to include the involvement of diverse perspectives and diverse people in the, in the public service, diverse staff, because they provide that perspective on their, their different, you know, ways of knowing, being, and doing. And so the presence of those people, um, is really vital. And oftentimes that means we need that presence in leadership because leadership without, uh, that sort of diverse background are not going to know, um, what, diverse staff are experiencing and what their needs are. The existence of diverse leadership.

From what I've seen, can make a really big difference, not just in terms of policy change, but in cultural change as well within, larger to smaller environments.

Jo Rose 

We also wanted to get some perspectives from Senior Leaders within the Sector. They have a critical role to play in fostering diverse and inclusive teams that better serve our communities.

Let’s hear first from IPAA NSW President and Director of Parliamentary Services, Mark Webb. 

Mark Webb 

Look, I don't think I'd be saying anything surprising to the listeners to say that there's obviously been in the press a lot recently with what's happening in the US and some of the commentary that started to make its way into the Australian context as well. And I would say I don't recognize the version of the inclusion and diversity that is sometimes talked about elsewhere. For me, whether it's diversity and inclusion, whether it's about what our approach to flexible work is, whether it's about culture within organizations, the end goal is to provide the best possible service to the people of New South Wales. That is why we're here and what we're trying to do. So diversity and inclusion and diversity results in people being able to bring their best selves to work and do so in a safe environment. so they can do their best work. Like it's not a just bringing your whole self or your best self to work is not the goal in and of itself. It is to create an environment where you can do your absolute best work. Is to make sure that if you want to get ahead in your career, you're going to have to work hard. There are no shortcuts from that point of view, but it's to make sure that two people of equal capability who put in the same kind of effort get the same kind of reward. for that effort. It's removing barriers from people to get the reward for effort, that equality of opportunity that needs to be there. But again, all of that is so that people can bring their best selves to work, do their best work and get the best outcomes for the people of New South Wales. And to me,  as I've been reflecting on the things happening around the world.

To me, more and more, the core of a thriving public sector is every single person in that public sector being able to come to work, bring their best selves to that work and do their best work. And that's the way I think we're going to be able to get the best outcomes for the people of New South Wales.

<MUSIC>

Gelina Talbot

So diversity to me means creating workplaces that truly mirrors the communities we serve, whether that's across culture, gender, ability, age, faith, sexuality, or life experience. It's about recognizing that every person brings a unique lens to the table, which is shaped by their story. However, the, the conversation can't just be siloed to the word, the term diversity. It has to be about true acceptance, and that's about also inclusion and belonging. And for me that means, um, diversity is being invited to the dance and inclusion is being asked to dance and belonging is being able to dance however you like.

It's really important that we, we ensure that people of all backgrounds, abilities and identities are welcomed, respected, and given equal opportunities within the workplace. And that we create psychologically safe workplaces for people. Um, and that involves creating environments where everyone feels valued.

Jo Rose

That’s Gelina Talbot, she’s spent over 35 years in public service, including senior leadership roles in the NSW Police Force and she’s currently the acting Deputy Secretary of Corporate Services in the Department of Communities and Justice. She’s also the Executive Sponsor for Women in Communities and Justice and she makes a strong case for why diversity isn't just a buzzword. It's essential for effective public service. From innovation and decision-making to employee satisfaction and public trust, the benefits can be seen across every level of government.

Gelina Talbot

So I think there are several key benefits of a diverse public workforce, including improved decision making where there is a variety of perspectives and experiences that can lead to more innovative solutions and better decision making inclusive workplaces. Tend to have higher employee satisfaction and retention rates.

We know that, and by being inclusive, people get a better sense of belonging, which boosts employee satisfaction and retention. Diversity also challenges groupthink and helps us to avoid the pitfall of that one size fits all approach to public policy and service delivery. Truly enables us to create inclusive policies that not only shape better service design and outcomes for our communities, but also for our own people.

And we know that when our workplaces reflect the communities we serve, it enhances, uh, public trust and legitimacy. It builds stronger trust and credibility with the public, and it also leads to better service delivery through improved understanding. 

Jo Rose

But how do we move from good intentions to meaningful action? Gelina believes everyone has a role to play, especially leaders, in embedding inclusive practices across all aspects of work.

Gelina Talbot

Really good question. Um, I think people can champion diversity in their roles by truly listening to the diverse voices and opinions of those around them. You know, some of the best ideas that I've seen and heard in my time have come from places where everyone feels like they have a voice and where people feel safe to put an idea or an opinion forward.

And there's never a wrong idea. It's always one to consider. I think, um, we need to work as leaders, you know, and, and everyone on their, our own growth mindset, you know, where we embrace cultural humility and we're open to learning and sometimes unlearning and making safe places for others to provide their voice and differing viewpoints.

I think as leaders, I truly believe we need to drive diversity and inclusion in everything we do. Whether it's through our conversations, our behaviors, our daily practices, and that includes advocating for the policies that we have in our workplaces so that, you know, we make sure we're promoting diversity inclusion at all times.

Um, it's about finding opportunities within our workplace and demonstrating visible leadership in all. It's about, you know, how do we mentor, how do we sponsor others from diverse backgrounds to help them succeed? And, you know, I do a call, a shout out for the Elevate Navigate Program by the Public Service Commission, which I've done for two years, to be able to sponsor, uh, an employee from a called.

Uh, background in another public sector organization is really important as a leader to be able to show that support and to help them. Um, I think we also need to look at how we embed inclusive practices in our recruitment, our leadership development, and our overall decision making. 

Jo Rose 

So what does that look like?

Gelina Talbot

Um, it's about having. Unbiased recruitment practices and tools so that everyone is insured. Fair opportunity. Using diverse panels, using inclusive language and making sure that we're using a variety of recruitment channels that, that reach, uh, underrepresented groups. Uh, it's about ensuring access to mentoring, as I said before, that cultural capability training and clear pathways that value lived experience and diversity in leadership styles.

Creating inclusive and psychologically safe workplaces where everyone feels welcomed, valued, and that, that they belong. And I think that's our role as leaders. And I think in as, as a final part, I would say it's about speaking up when others are dismissive or disrespectful in this place, we must develop the courage to call out such behaviors and to educate others.

And sometimes that simply is saying, what do you mean by that? And it's getting people to rationalize verbally their thinking in a way that we start to have real conversations that influence behaviors in our workplaces. And that also set the standard. Yeah, it's the standard that we accept is the standard that exists in our workplaces.

And when we don't call it out, whether that's in the diversity space, whether it's in respectful workplace behaviors, um, we condone, um, or complicit in behavior. And I think all of us have a role to play in.

Jo Rose

So, where is this being done well? From her current vantage point at the Department of Communities and Justice, Gelina highlights the real-world examples that show how strategy, culture, and accountability can come together to create an inclusive workplace.

Gelina Talbot

I think firstly, the New South Wales government shows a strong commitment to actively promoting diversity and inclusion across the public sector, which I've seen develop over my 35 years, whether in policing or more recently in the Department of Communities. I justice. 

You know, with respect to DCJ, we set a strong example in advancing diversity inclusion over numerous areas and whilst there is always, uh, room to grow, our commitment and progress in this space is commendable. And that includes having a robust DCJ inclusion strategy that outlines our commitment to creating an inclusive, diverse, and accessible workplace.

But it's not just a strategy. It's a living document and a way of working that really shows commitment from the secretary down to engagement and to also having strong accountability measures for our diversity. We have been recognized as a disability, uh, confident recruiter by the Australian Disability Network since 2016, and we're recently ranked first in the government and second nationally in the access and inclusion index, which shows real strong commitment.

Um, what I also love at DCJ is the breadth and commitment of the employee networks that exist and there's such a strong leadership commitment. From the secretary down to those employee networks. They also have a level two carers accreditation through the Carers New South Wales employees program, which I think shows that strong commitment, again, to supporting employees with caregiving responsibilities.

And it's actually one of the best that I've seen, we're also gold members of the Australian Network on Disability and an active participant in Pride in Diversity, which, you know, again, is about fostering an inclusive and safe environment for all LGBTQA employees. DCJ is also exceeding the New South Wales targeted recruiting First Nations people with.

Having a strong focus on hiring at all levels and including leadership positions, and we can see that on of family workers with 20% of our being aboriginal identified.

Jo Rose

And what is Gelina seeing internationally? 

Gelina Talbot

I, I think Canada, uh, Canada's public sector has done a phenomenal job with its commitment to its First Nation people and inclusive hiring mandates.

They've legislative frameworks that aim to eliminate systemic barriers, promote equity, and ensure representation of his historically underrepresented groups across their public service. Um, their indigenous focused strategies really embed recognition, um, and reconciliation in, into their public sector, employment and service delivery by increasing indigenous representation, uh, addressing cultural safety and supporting self-determination through inclusive careers, pathways and leadership programs that really build a pipeline, um, for their future leaders.

Jo Rose

So, Canada shows what’s possible with clear structures and targeted programs. But Gelina also reminds us: systems don’t shift without people.

Gelina Talbot

When it all comes down to it, it's the grassroot initiatives, it's the staff networks, it's the advocacy and the, uh, engagement and support that happens in an organization. It's the creation of culturally safe workplaces and leadership commitment that really drive the deepest and most sustainable change across diversity, inclusion, and belonging for our workplaces and for the communities we serve.

<MUSIC BREAK>

Jo Rose

And now, let’s turn to another perspective. Here’s Jane Spring, bringing her own experience to the conversation on diversity in the public sector.  

Jane is currently chair the Advisory Council for Australia's Disability Strategy and also the Disability Council of NSW. 

She’s worked across many parts of the public sector and brings a systems-level view to the idea of diversity. One that moves beyond representation to action. Her focus is on embedding lived experience into the design and delivery of public policy.

 Jane Spring

Diversity means more than just difference. It means deliberately creating spaces where all people can contribute and belong. 

It's also about shifting power, ensuring those most affected by public policy have a voice in shaping it. In my roles across disability, sport, and infrastructure, I've seen firsthand.

How embedding lived experience in decision making leads to smarter investment and more inclusive services. But it's not just about efficiency, it's also about justice. The public sector should lead the way in demonstrating that everyone has a rightful place in leadership and service.

Jo Rose

Jane believes every public servant has a role to play in building inclusive systems. 

Jane Spring

Everyone can champion diversity in their roles. You don't need a senior title to make a difference. Everyone can ask who's missing from the conversation? How can I make this space more accessible or inclusive? Whether you are managing a team, drafting a policy, or running a meeting, there are always opportunities to challenge bias and enable participation. 

at a system level. We are seeing strong frameworks like Australia's disability strategy. Which makes it clear that public sector organizations must model inclusive employment, accessible services, and diverse leadership.

As Chair of the Disability Council in New South Wales, I help oversee this process. And advocate for stronger, more consistent implementation across government. The public sector also has influenced beyond its walls through procurement, partnerships, and regulation. That means championing diversity in how we fund programs, design infrastructure, and evaluate success.

Ultimately, excellence in diversity is about more than a policy or a plan. It's about building a culture where inclusion is expected and where lived experience is central to shaping public decisions. 

Jo Rose

What I think is interesting as we listen to all those different responses, is that there is no uniformed, one size fits all interpretation of Diversity, and why it’s so important for the public sector. 

There are common ideas, themes and language used. But even through those voices we can see that there are different ways to think about diversity and what it means. 

It’s hugely personal and comes down to people’s own experience.

I think that this common theme– the idea of understanding and valuing someone’s lived experience – goes to the heart of how we can build a truly diverse public sector workforce.  

Most questions and challenges that are worth the effort to solve, do not come with easy ready-made solutions. 

I hope this episode has given you some things to think about but also some practical ways that YOU can champion diversity in your own circles. 

Whether it’s your recruiting practices, being mindful of the language that you use or constantly checking in with your own biases. It’s all impactful.  

We know that it can be easy to surround yourself with people like you, but it doesn't always make for good decision making and the research certainly supports that. 

We also know that simply telling people that they should be a particular way doesn't always work.

And I’m of the belief that if we ask more questions, be more curious, more kind, less reactive, and go out in the community and explore, we will all be better for it.

We also need to think about the real benefits of a public sector that represents the community. And how necessary that diversity is in addressing the challenges NSW faces now, and in the future. 

“Thank you so much for joining us for this important conversation. This is the last episode on Series 1, but I am thrilled to let you know that we're going to be doing Series 2 of Ipaa Insiders. So now's your chance to let us know your burning question. And we don't care what it is. I would love to know. You can send me personally an email at CEO at nsw.ipaa.org.au. We are literally just shaping Series 2 right now. And we won't be able to answer your questions unless you tell us what they are. So I look forward to hearing from you. Until then, enjoy IPAA Insiders.

IPAA Insiders is a production of IPAA NSW. Our Producer is Alessia Campagna, with mixing and sound design by Anthony Watson, our Executive Producers are Me, Jo Rose and Nicola Hardy. 

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