Behind The Mic Ep1

Behind the Mic, Episode 1

In this first Behind the Mic bonus episode, we take listeners behind the scenes of IPAA Insiders Season 1, exploring why the podcast was created, how the conversations were shaped, and what resonated most strongly with the public sector community.

Host Jo Rose is joined by Megan Maletic, previous Lead Consulting Partner at Deloitte for the NSW Government and public services sector, and IPAA NSW President Mark Webb, alongside other Season 1 contributors. Together, they reflect on the intent behind the series, the value of sourcing questions directly from members, and the importance of creating space for diverse voices from across and beyond the public sector.

The conversation highlights key themes that emerged throughout the season, including transferable skills, solution focused thinking, leadership at every level, and navigating uncertainty with purpose and confidence. Jo and Mark also reflect on listener feedback, particularly from early and mid career public servants, and discuss what success looks like over the long arc of a public sector career.

The episode also looks ahead to Season 2, touching on emerging areas of interest such as future skills, trust in public institutions, psychological resilience, and the evolving relationship between technology and human centred work.

Rather than offering definitive answers, this episode reinforces the value of curiosity, connection, and collective learning. It captures the spirit of IPAA Insiders as a platform for sharing experience, celebrating diversity of thought, and supporting public servants at every stage of their career.

Whether you’re a long time listener or new to the series, this Behind the Mic episode provides context, reflection, and a strong foundation for the conversations still to come.

SHOW CREDITS
Host: Jo Rose
Writers: Alessia Campagna, Nicola Hardy and Jo Rose
Producer and Editor: Alessia Campagna
Technical Producer: Anthony Watson
Executive Producers: Jo Rose and Nicola Hardy

Music Credits:
Let The Good Times Roll: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/ra/let-good-times-roll
License code: DNAIHKYCKOUU6HBT

Enchanted Puzzle: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/andrey-rossi/enchanted-puzzle
License code: YTN0OYX8RBDDUQ73

Easy Flow: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/hybridas/easy-flow
License code: R2FTWOYRCB7YOW21

Not That Easy: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/not-that-easy
License code: MYQOVXXWAFZULECH

On Tiptoes: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/on-tiptoes

We would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which the podcast is taking place today. We pay our deep respects to all Elders past, present and emerging. We would also like to extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Transcript

Behind the Mic Episode 1

IPAA NSW acknowledges the Gadigal People the traditional owners of the lands and waters this podcast is recorded on.

Jo Rose

Hi, I’m Jo Rose, CEO of IPAA New South Wales.

We’re sharing something a little different today on IPAA Insiders.

I was recently joined in the studio by some of our guests from Season One. We recorded a few candid conversations that will take you behind the scenes and talk about why we created the podcast, answer some of our listener questions, and give a few of our guests the chance to add a little bit more to the conversation.

In the first half of this episode, we switch things up with Megan Maletic Lead Consulting Partner from Deloitte taking the mic to interview IPAA NSW President Mark Webb and myself. Then in the second half, I interview Megan and Mark, giving you two perspectives on the conversations that shaped Season One.

So join us, as we take you behind the mic and explore more of IPAA Insiders.

Megan Maletic  

Hello. I'm Megan Maletic, Lead Consulting Partner at Deloitte for the New South Wales Government and Public Services Sector. And today for IPAA insiders, we're doing something a little bit different. IPAA New South Wales, CEO and host for IPAA insiders, Jo Rose has asked me to come down to the studio to flip the script a little bit. She's here with three other guests for season one, Jo, would you like to introduce who's here with us today? 

Jo  Rose  

Absolutely, so today, I'm going to be joined by Public Service Commissioner Katrina Lowe, Mark Webb, who, as well as being the IPAA New South Wales president, is the Chief Executive Officer of Parliamentary Services, and Amy Mathai, Associate Director Climate Finance Programs at New South Wales Treasury.

Megan Maletic  

And Jo Why did you bring everyone back to the studio.

Jo Rose

Well, the first season of the podcast was extremely well received. We've had 1000s of people listen and lots of great comments from our members, and we also had heaps of people asking questions. So it felt to me that it was really a great opportunity to close the loop a little bit and to get those people to respond to some of those questions.

I've also had feedback from the people who were on the podcast that in hearing what we've done with the other people and the other voices, that they felt like there was more to the conversation. So, I guess it's a little bit of closing the loop and also just sort of making sure that we finished the series well. 

Megan Maletic  

Well, okay,great. Why don't we jump right in with you and Mark and go behind the mic of IPAA insiders. 

Jo, when you had the idea for the podcast, what were you hoping to achieve?

Jo Rose 

Well, I guess we're always looking for new products and services at IPAA. I'm really conscious how time poor people are and that it's really difficult for people. To come together online or in person, but yet it's our role to really help connect people. I'm a massive podcast fan. There's something about the intimacy of podcasts. I think that means that you feel a real, a better sense of connection with the people that you're listening to. So I was keen to do a bit of a pilot to see whether we could help build or build that sense of connection within our own community. I also know from talking to our many, many 1000s of members that there are people, as many people with questions as there are with answers. So I actually fully believe that it doesn't matter where you are in the sector, you probably do have the answer to someone else's question. And so to me, it was a great way to show that really which ecosystem that we work in and the symbiotic relationship I guess we have between our members,

Megan Maletic 

The burning questions that each episode tackles have all been sourced from the IPAA New South Wales community. Why was it important to you that the questions be directly from them, as opposed to the hot topics that IPAA decided upon. 

Jo Rose    

I think there is a sense in professional associations sometimes, which is like, what if it is that there is sort of these experts who know more than than other people or the members? And I really, I rail against that notion, to me, the parity and the egalitarian spirit of the public sector and society is what attracts me to the role and to the work we do at IPAA. So it was a good opportunity to show the equality between our different members and that people could be part of that conversation. I would love to have members in these hot seats answering other people's questions. We have tried to show a real range of diversity of people. So, we've had very senior people and more junior people, people from within the sector, people from outside the sector. So it's really about creating that sort of melting pot of conversations. That's why we wanted to get the questions from our members.

Megan Maletic  

Fantastic. So Mark, when Jo came to you and said, I've got this idea for IPAA New South Wales podcast, what made you think, yes, this is something worth doing for IPAA as a professional association.

Mark Webb  

Well, first, it's great to be here, and I am contractually obliged, as the President of New South Wales to agree with everything Jo says. So that was the first dimension. But when I was looking at the idea, I think associations that find different ways of reaching out to different segments of their memberships are the ones that seem to be thriving at the moment. And, you know, IPAA has a long history of running face to face events. You know, we've obviously got in, like everybody else, into the hybrid events and online events space, especially accelerated through COVID. But that doesn't connect with everybody, and it doesn't, it isn't the way that everybody likes to create and receive content.

So looking at podcasts made a lot of sense to me. Of course, I was hoping that we would then rival Joe Rogan and be the greatest podcast in the absolute world, and we're well on our way to doing that. So I was also very pleased with that dimension as well.

Megan Maletic  

And how has the show been received by the sector? Can you share a story? Perhaps Joe from a listener who's benefited from the show? 

Jo Rose    

Oh  goodness, there have been so many people who've reached out to me, either on LinkedIn or by emailing the CEO inbox to tell me that the podcast has landed at exactly the right time. The one that I think is the most consistent is the transferable skills. I think people in the sector are often really passionate about their work and their role, and our job is to help them be their best. But it I think there is a sense in the in some cohorts in the sector, that there's someone outside of you that helps you develop your career. And I'm really vocal on the fact that that's ultimately your responsibility. That's a self management issue. And so that was what the transferable skills episode was really about, how do I identify the skills that are transferable? How do I describe how I can take my ability to do this here, and even though you might you may not see the direct links, explain to you about how that means I can then do this. And that seems to really resonated with people. I also think the sort of solutions Bringer has, I've had quite a lot of positive feedback about that idea, particularly from managers. I think one of the consistent challenges that I am hearing people, more senior people, say is that people are bringing problems, but they're not necessarily thinking through here are the solutions. Here are some of the advantages and disadvantages for them. Therefore I recommend this. This recommendation brings this risk. You should be aware and actually closing that loop, which to me, is everyday leadership. It's about thinking, Okay, if I was presented with this, what would I do with it? And I think we did delve into that quite deeply, in that solutions Bringer kind of episode. So they're the two. That have been most consistent, but I've had massive amount of feedback. And thank everyone who has reached out to let me know what they think. 

Megan Maletic  

Yeah, I certainly, I really enjoyed listening about that mindset piece and the importance around bringing the, you know, the right mindset as well, which I thought was an excellent part of the segment. Mark, did you have any thoughts on or reflections on how it's been received by the sector,

Mark Webb  

Yeah, I've been struck by the number of younger members that have approached me about it being a channel through which they have really engaged with IPAA content. I guess that probably reflects that that our desire to find different channels for reaching different segments of the membership as well. And so that inspiration that people can draw from, not just from senior people, but from people more generally, and people who are really starting to maybe for the first time, think about what their career is going to be, whether that career is going to be solely in the public sector, or whether they're going to move out and maybe back in. What is that sense of purpose that they've got in and people seem to be perhaps in particular, because there's some uncertainty in the world at the moment, and that translates into all public sectors as well, looking at what's happening overseas as well as what's happening in other jurisdictions here. Maybe that sense of uncertainty is driving people to really start to think about their career in different ways, and having tools to do that is is one of the big bits of feedback that I've got from people 

Megan Maletic  

And I'm assuming, potentially, you've heard some funny anecdotes about your appearance on the podcast. Has anyone quoted you back?

Mark Webb

No one's quoted me back. I've always maintained I have an excellent head for radio. So podcasting is a wonderful, wonderful space for me to be operating in particular and of course, having deep, booming voice, is a very good thing for a radio sort of format as well. No one's quoted me back to me, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

Megan Maletic  

The show brings together so many different experts, both in and outside the sector. Why is IPAA so uniquely positioned to bring together these diverse voices?

Jo Rose  

I think because we reflect the sector which reflects society. So everyone who has is works within a portfolio or agency by virtue of our relationship with their employer is an IPA affiliate. And so that means that we reflect the many 1000s, hundreds and 1000s of people who work across the public sector, and we have an enormous cohort of affiliates. And so we really are, I guess, just a very small microcosm of the broader sector, but we also have really consciously ensured that we are diverse. And so we as a team, make sure that everything that we do, we kind of do, run a bit of a sort of diversity inclusion scale across it to make sure we have gender parity, to make sure that we have as many voices reflected as we can. We ultimately are all here to make the lives of the people of New South Wales better, and that in itself, is an enormously diverse cohort. It's enshrined in legislation that we're a diverse workplace, and so it's really important to us to make sure that we actually reflect the broader environment we work, but also that we are a place where people feel a sense of connection and that there is a sense of belonging. So we actively work to cultivate that diversity and inclusion.

Mark Webb  

One of the things I really like about that is that some of the commentary on diversity inclusion recently, I don't recognize what I see as diversity and inclusion in some of that commentary, diversity, inclusion is as much a productivity play as it is anything else we are serving a society that has so many different voices in it, and having those voices reflected in the public sector can only make us better As a public sector, I sometimes hear people talking about, oh, this is diversity for the sake of diversity, or this is and it just doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever the role IPAA can play in making sure that that diversity translates to productivity, that you are getting that reflection, not for the purposes of just having it reflected to you, but for the purposes of advancing your career, for the purposes of you being a better public servant, for the purposes of you being able to serve the people of New South Wales better. And I think that dimension of what we've been doing in IPAA, what I know the Public Service Commission does, it's about making sure that we are better as a public sector. And I'm really proud of the work that IPAA does to try and make that, bring that to reality. 

Megan Maletic  

That's so important. Thank you for that Mark. So given that the show is all about tackling hot topics, what do you predict your audience will want to in season two? 

Jo Rose  

I think there's a lot of discussion about skills. So. What skills should I be working on? The future of skills? What might the workplace look like in another five or 10 years time? Leadership is one that people always want to know more about. I'm not super attracted to the term everyday leadership, but it seems to be the best shorthand that I've come up with that. What does, what does everyone do in the sector to lead in the their own sphere of influence? I think I'm really interested, and I'm sure I'll hear, particularly given the changes in our political environment, for us to dive more deeper into the sort of seasons of government. I think if you've been around government for a long time, like me and Mark you realize that there are particular trends. A first term government is quite different to a third or fourth term government. We're going to see that play out in the Commonwealth now. And I know when I speak to our colleagues in the APS, they're all saying, Oh goodness, we're expecting this and not that, because of what's happened in the election. So whilst we are apolitical and we don't necessarily comment on those kind of things, I think seasoned leaders understand the time before budget, for example, there are some sort of seasonalities in the public sector. I think I'm hearing from a lot of people that the sense of psychological safety in the sector is something. And I think in my mind, people will ask questions about that. I'm more interested in how we answer those so not about bullying or harassment, but more about the stress that we all work in. We're working in a constrained environment. We've got only the difficult problems left to solve that comes with inherent stress. So how do we talk about that stress, different to anything to do with psychological safety? And then how do we support people to be their best resilient self, so that they can keep coming up every day, to keep doing the same work, to kind of slowly shift the dial, so they're the things that people are saying to me. So I'm only anticipating that they will be the kinds of questions that we get. 

Mark Webb  

I read the term street leadership, street level leadership in the public sector yesterday. I thought that sounds much cooler. Maybe we need to and I also think I've been thinking a lot about social license recently, our institutions all have a degree of social license that underpins them. Why does the parliament make laws? Because everyone agrees that the parliament should be able to make laws. Those social licenses in some of our institutions have been so deeply embedded in society that people have, I think, started to take them for granted. But when we're looking around the world, we can see what happens when that social license starts to break down. And I think it would be foolish of us to assume that Australia is immune to those effects. So one of the things I'm really interested in having more discussion, whether it's through the podcast or through other means, is, what can we all do as public servants to engender the trust that people need to have in public services, that trust translating into that social license and to trust something you need to understand it. To trust something, you need to be able to rely on it. To trust something, you need to participate in it. So what can we all do, every single public servant in the New South Wales public sector, to engender that trust? That means that our our social institutions, our political institutions, our democratic institutions, all of them can continue to maintain that social license and can continue to make Australia, you know, just an absolutely fantastic country, best country in the world. We all keep saying and we're all right, but that's only as long as we keep working to keep it that way.

Jo Rose  

I'd like to see us have more people from outside the New South Wales public sector, and more voices. We did pretty well in the private sector, and we've got some great relationships, including with you, Megan, but I'd like to see us invite our colleagues from other jurisdictions. I think there's some fantastic case stories. Mark and I have just come back from the National Council meeting, and what's happening in other jurisdictions is fascinating. It's so similar, but so different. So I think it would be good for us as a podcast to sort of leverage some of that expertise. And I'm really interested in our relationship with academics. I think that that's sort of the idea in my mind. I call it between town and gown, and the idea about how we can kind of close that gap a little bit more, how we provide a platform, no offense to any academics listening to kind of demystify some of that work, that very deep work that those people do, but into sort of practical policy solutions, and to help that in the same way as you build a network of people across the New South Wales public sector, that we would help our members develop those network, networks with other people in other public sectors, but also with academics. So yeah, I would like to see that happen.

Megan Maletic  

Season Two. Sounds like it's going to be a. Excellent. Thank you, Jo

Jo Rose

We now have you on record that there is season two.

Mark Webb 

I refer you back to my contract. 

Megan Maletic

Thank you both. 

Mark Webb 

Thank you Megan

END of SEGEMENT 1 Episode 1

Jo Rose

Thank you, Megan and Mark, it's fantastic. I guess we are embodying exactly what we said that we want the podcast to do, and that you can ask the questions or give the answers. And just the fact that we've managed to do this, Mark, you might get a seat in the hot seat if you play your cards right next time. 

Mark, just to start off, I'm always really interested to hear from people about what success in the public sector looks like for you when you think about your career, is what you define as personal success the same now as it was when you joined.

Mark Webb  

Probably it has evolved over time I joined the public sector, so my late 20s, early 30s, and to be perfectly honest, back then, I would have defined success as like me, like I'm great. Have you met me as I'm fantastic? But as my career has and hopefully I have matured a little moving forward, although those that know me for a long time would say that may not be the case, but as my career has gone on, I have more and more pointed to two things that define success for me. The first is, is basically, do the things I work on have some sense of longevity past my involvement in them? In my early career, I worked on a lot of things, things that I'm very proud of, but what I and they resulted in me getting other opportunities and maybe a promotion here, or move into an interesting project there. But I noticed some of the things I worked on tended to crumble a little bit once my energy wasn't going into them anymore, and I realized I wasn't doing the work to make sure that things were set up for the long term. So for me, that longevity of the things you've worked on is one thing that I use to measure my career success. The second thing is, do the people that work with me go on to bigger and better things, where bigger and better is a completely personal decision? If bigger and better for you, Jo is building baskets on the beaches of Bali, then have I helped you get to that if you want to be secretary of the Premier's department, have I helped you along that pathway as well, and looking back and seeing that the people that you've worked with go on to achieve the kind of success they want in their career. That's the second dimension to which I judge success. I think if you tie your sense of success to individual policy failure or success, or achieving a certain promotion, or working in a certain you know, working with a certain person, there are so many external factors that can influence whether those things succeed or fail that you can kind of doom yourself to a sense of of disappointment. And so I would rather focus on things that have that more enduring legacy.

Jo Rose  

Megan, you've got an adjacency to the public sector. I think we've known each other for a long time, and you've been working with the sector that entire time. When you think of the many 1000s of people that you've met, how do you think they would define success in the sector?

Megan Maletic  

I think what I've observed in those people that realize success is they think about three levels, I think, and they are intentional about them. And that is about the sector, about the perhaps the department or the branch within which they're working, within their department and themselves. And I think they actually really plan through how they are impactful in each one of those and I think you know, when those leaders really show up at that departmental level, they're doing that in a way that's very much networked. They're interconnected, not just within intra departmentally, but externally. And that means those broader networks not just. Not, you know, public sector based networks, but, you know, public and private type relationships. They're deeply curious. They're looking at ways in which they can source information that might help or guide their departmental goals or the ambitions. They're then looking at how they can foster their team within their teams and branches. So what are the ways in which they can collectively lift capability. What's the fostering of talent they can do effectively? What Mark's been touching on, how do you help those that and really steward those team members that you perhaps got oversight of, and then deeply reflective about self? What do I want? What am I getting out of these things for my career, and what am I driving to make sure that in all the change we're experiencing, that you're not just sort of swept in the tide, that you're actually thinking about, what are we going to what am I doing this year, and what am I going to be intentional about? We have an ever changing context within the professional services sector as well as you do, and I think it's important as individuals to remind ourselves, maybe even to rehire ourselves in the context that we're in, and making sure that we're, you know, being a little bit selfish for ourselves at times. 

Mark Webb  

I think  that reflective practice thing is really, really important for progressing your career. If you're the kind of person who has to bang your head against the wall 10 times before you learn that banging your head against the wall is a bad thing, then your career will slow down. If you're the kind of person who bangs your head against the wall once and then says, Oh, what happened there? What could I do differently? Perhaps not run into the wall, then you're going to progress your career a lot, a lot faster. So yeah, I really like that point about reflective practice. It's really good,

Jo Rose    

I guess, sort of helicoptering up a little bit. you both did touch on this. We are in a time of enormous change. Geopolitically, there's a lot of uncertainty. Technologically, it feels like we're on the cusp of, you know, in the next great revolution locally, you know, we're working in a constrained, fiscal environment. I know change is eternal and it's the only constant. But what advice would you both give for people who how to thrive in that change and how to make it something that defines their career. I might start with you. Mark, 

Mark Webb  

yeah. Look, I think mindset is an incredibly important part to that. Sometimes when you see people reflecting on the challenges of the time, and people are very good at problem identification, and so they will identify that we're in challenging times, and then they will tell you the 1000 things that you maybe haven't realized about just how challenging the times are. And can send themselves down a little bit of rabbit hole where all you're seeing is risk and all you're seeing and that can lead to very defensive behavior, that can that can lead to you bunkering down a little bit, maybe not wanting to stick your head out, maybe not wanting to be noticed. That kind of mindset does not allow you to thrive in changing times. If you are waiting for the times to improve before you will then really burst out and be a star. You may be waiting for a really, really long time in my last 10 years, say, in the public sector, there has always been when the budget situation is in deficit, then everyone says, You can't spend money, because when it's in surplus, people say, well, we can't spend money because we don't want to overstimulate the economy. In fact, I've never had a point where anyone's told me that spending money is a good thing in the cycle. And so if I was waiting for a moment when Treasury came out and said, Guess what, everybody, here's all the money you would like go out and spend, I could be waiting a long time for my chance. So trying to cultivate more of an opportunity mindset. What are the opportunities in this being realistic, not Pollyanna about the challenges being realistic, but not letting yourself get so focused on the challenges that you miss the opportunity to make any difference and make any change whatsoever. So that mindset would be the thing that I would focus on first. 

Megan Maletic   

And I think what I'd add to that is many of the change, many of the aspects of change, or much of the aspects of change that we're seeing is shared. There's many of those you've touched on, you know, in some of our conversations around skills, for instance, you know, that's a shared issue that that are being faced into. You know, there's, there's lots of different ways in which people are trying to think through mobility across various departments. And certainly, if I can touch on AI, that's certainly something that's an important topic that people are looking to discuss. So through change, I think it's share the experience you're having around navigating that change. Try to unlock some solutions collectively as best as you possibly can. Because I think, you know, there is certain value in, you know, shared problem solving,

Jo Rose  

Just to deep dive a little bit more into change management. It's one of those things that come up, certainly in people I speak to, it's a skill that we really need to develop a little bit more deeply. What are your views on change management? I might start with you, Megan and a couple of tips for people about how to manage either as an individual or as a leader. 

Megan Maletic  

Yes, I think change leadership is at the heart of change management and lifting the capability of our leaders to navigate through change and help our teams navigate through change is really important. There is a vast array of knowledge and services in the market to enable leaders, and I'm sure IPPA is at the heart of that. I would also say there's some importance around understanding what you're changing from and what you're changing to, and doing your best to articulate what that truly means, whether it's for the sector, whether it's for team members. And I think what's also really important is to really manage the risk and the issues that arise through that change. I think it can feel like chaos if it isn't sort of controlled or communicated in a really planned and intentional way. And I think knowing the change messages that you want to articulate in that coordinated way really needs to be stakeholder specific. So think about the audience that you're going to communicate that change with gather collective viewpoints in order to make sure that that's meaningful for the audiences you're working with. But again, to my point earlier, know that change can actually be beneficial, and it's a real opportunity. So that mindset piece that Mark talked about bringing a positive mindset to change, leading through that intentionally. There's a huge opportunity. It can feel burdensome change, absolutely, but you know, trying to maintain that positive mindset about the opportunity that change presents is really key. 

Mark Webb 

Yeah, I reckon that's fascinating and really important. The if you don't have a role in shaping change, then change is going to shape you. You mentioned AI earlier. One of the best things I saw about AI was someone saying, AI isn't necessarily coming for your job, but it is coming for your job description. So maybe think a little bit about how you can shape some of that kind of stuff. I'll also reflect a little bit I always feel for leaders, of leaders in change situations, because you're often affected by the change as well. You've got all these leaders reporting to you who are looking to you for some sense of guidance, or either positivity or maybe constructiveness, you know, like, what's our constructive approach to this kind of thing. But look, you've got to feel your feelings too, like you've got to grieve the things that you're losing. You've got to get to yourself to a point where you can be involved in the things and the opportunities that can come from the from the change, and so that what level of support everyone can provide each other, one of the things that really impresses me about Kathrina Lowe, the Public Service Commissioner, is not just the structural stuff that she does. She puts a lot of guidelines and frameworks out, and they're all excellent, but the personal connection she has with a lot of leaders, of leaders, and the support that she provides them in just the informal stuff, the stuff that nobody ever sees, but it gets people to a point where they can then lead change. I think the mistake of thinking of very senior people as robots that are just attempting to implement something tough. It's tempting to think of people that way, but it's not right, and anything that we can all do to recognize the personal implications of change. I mean, I've had to deal with changes that have been quite difficult, difficult things, and you've just, you've sometimes, you've got to be sad about it for a little while before you can then get on to doing the doing the next thing. So, so yeah, that that that kind of, how do you support each other? How do you see somebody else going through a change and provide them with a sounding board. How do you make sure that that you are, regardless of your level, regardless of where you're at? Maybe your boss you might you know, offer your boss a comforting word at some point to help them and of course, you should expect from leadership support and positivity for leaders out there, the only thing worse than going through a difficult change is having your boss confirm that it's a terrible thing. Like sometimes, some of those people go in and say, Oh, this is this is terrible. And I think sometimes leaders have the temptation I want to be empathetic. I want to be sympathetic. So I will confirm to this person that it is indeed terrible what they're going through, and it is horrible, and this change is awful. I guarantee you, every single person you do. That too, leaves the conversation feeling worse than when they when they came in. So, yeah, just how do we support each other through change at a human level? I think is as important as the structures that we use and the frameworks that we go through and the like

Jo Rose  

When we're thinking about season two and about the future of IPAA’s program, the essential human skills is something they're certainly front of mind to me, if you got the chance to ask a burning question for series two, I might start with you, Mark. What would that question be?

Mark Webb    

Can Mark Webb be made president for life? That would be the that would be the first question. Let's put that aside for a second, of course, that is, I just want to get it out there, because I know most people would want to ask that question.

Jo Rose  

I'm sure the watching public are going to be in the street. Smart,

Mark Webb  

that's exactly right. I I'm pretty sure I can seek a third term. But let's, let's put that aside for a moment. Now, I think if I, if I was going to ask a question, probably the question I would want to ask is, especially of senior leaders, but of everybody, what are the opportunities you see in the next five years? I would want to get a sense of connecting to something positive and bigger. We often talk about the public service having purpose and that attracting people into the public sector, but I'm always surprised at how little we end up talking about that purpose. We almost take it for granted, that that's why people joined, and that people are feeling that sense of of purpose, I would probably be wanting to ask, what is that sense of purpose in the next period of time, like, what are the things that I should be grabbing on to? What is the difference that the public service is going to be able to make between, say, 2025, and 2030 and How's that different from the difference that we've made between 2010 and 2025 that would probably be the question that I would be most, second, most interested in

Megan Maletic  

Look, I think there is an inherent need to explore, what are the human factors that help, I think, make sure that we're focusing on human work. I think, you know, again, touching on AI, there will be, and there has been great examples in the sector where AI has already been applied, and where there's some really great pockets that I think can be shared learning. So I think, you know, exploring some of those great case studies will be brilliant, but for me, it's that balance of and then how does the AI and human way of working sit so beautifully within the public sector? Because I think in many cases where there is a services orientation that really comes to the fore, I think about our clinicians, our teachers. You know, even, you know, some of our Transport Workers, there is inherently Human Services orientation in any one of those sectors. And so what does it mean to have, you know, I guess, automation or AI, sit really nicely against those human workers and so exploring some of that changing nature of work design would be really exciting. 

Jo Rose

so many interesting things to discover in series two. And I hope to see you both in our hot seats then,

Megan Maletic

thanks, Jo. Thank you. Thank you. Jo,

Jo Rose 

Thanks for everyone, for being here today. I don't know about you, but I really loved hearing all the different perspectives and unique insights. I hope you got some wisdom out of today's conversations, and I hope you've got something that you can apply to your public sector career.

Being able to showcase diversity of thought and celebrate knowledge sharing are just two of the reasons that we started IPAA Insiders. And what I hope you know is that there are a lot of people behind the scenes here at IPAA Insiders, and I'd like to do a bit of a shout out to a couple of them. In, particular, Nicola Hardy, the Director of Capability Design and Member Engagement at IF New South Wales.

Our producer, Alessia Campagna, and our technical editor Anthony Watson.

And I'd also like to thank David Prideaux from Wesley Mission Studios for the Studio time. The first season of IPAA Insiders is available now. And if you missed an episode, I do encourage you to go back and have a listen. I always want to hear what you think, so please do slide into my dms and tell me if there's something that we missed, something that you wish that we'd asked, or if you want be part of the conversation.

And I'll see you next time for season two. 

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