Behind The Mic Ep2

Behind the Mic, Episode 2

In this second Behind the Mic bonus episode, we take a deeper look at some of the big themes explored in IPAA Insiders Season 1, with a focus on leadership, purpose, and the role of diversity in strengthening the public service.

Host Jo Rose is joined by Public Service Commissioner Kathrina Lo and Megan Maletic, previous Lead Consulting Partner at Deloitte for the NSW Government and public services sector. Together, they reflect on what effective leadership looks like in times of complexity, change, and fiscal constraint, and why inclusive, purpose led leadership is critical to delivering outcomes for the people of New South Wales.

The conversation explores how values such as integrity, service, and stewardship come to life in everyday leadership, regardless of role or seniority. Kathrina shares insights from her sector wide perspective, highlighting the importance of frank and fearless advice, building trust through relationships, and maintaining a clear focus on long term outcomes, not just immediate outputs.

Jo and Megan reflect on the importance of understanding the broader public sector ecosystem, staying curious about national and global trends, and drawing strength from diverse perspectives. The episode also highlights practical ways individuals can champion diversity and inclusion in their own spheres of influence, from recruitment and team culture to allyship and professional networks.

Whether you’re navigating change, aspiring to leadership, or thinking about how you contribute to a more inclusive and effective public service, this Behind the Mic episode offers thoughtful reflections and practical insights to support your journey.

SHOW CREDITS
Host: Jo Rose
Writers: Alessia Campagna, Nicola Hardy and Jo Rose
Producer and Editor: Alessia Campagna
Technical Producer: Anthony Watson
Executive Producers: Jo Rose and Nicola Hardy

Music Credits:
Let The Good Times Roll: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/ra/let-good-times-roll
License code: DNAIHKYCKOUU6HBT

Enchanted Puzzle: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/andrey-rossi/enchanted-puzzle
License code: YTN0OYX8RBDDUQ73

Easy Flow: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/hybridas/easy-flow
License code: R2FTWOYRCB7YOW21

Not That Easy: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/not-that-easy
License code: MYQOVXXWAFZULECH

On Tiptoes: Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/on-tiptoes

We would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which the podcast is taking place today. We pay our deep respects to all Elders past, present and emerging. We would also like to extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Transcript

Behind the Mic Episode 2 - Transcript

IPAA NSW acknowledges the Gadigal People the traditional owners of the lands and waters this podcast is recorded on.

Hi, I’m Jo Rose and I'm the CEO of IPAA New South Wales and the Host of IPAA Insiders. 

This is episode 2 of our Behind the Mic series.

Today you’ll hear Megan Maletic Lead Consulting Partner at Deloitte for the New South Wales government and public services sector in conversation with Public Service Commissioner Kathrina Lo and myself. 

We talk about the role of purpose-led leadership in the public service, championing diversity and inclusion and how important it is to have a sector-wide perspective that helps us solve our toughest public sector challenges. 

I hope you enjoy the conversation. 

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Megan Maletic 

Hi Jo, hi Katrina. Really lovely to spend some time with you both and and have a really good conversation, you know, following on from what was a really successful podcast as part of series one with you, Kathrina, could I start, perhaps with you, Kathrina, and ask the question about what leadership is most impactful in these times of change and budget constraints?

Kathrina Lo  

Really good question. And I feel you could almost write a long paper on that. For me, I think based on my own experiences, I've always tried to be an inclusive leader, a leader that creates a culture where people can thrive and do their best work, and a leader who is really clear around the direction and the expectations, so people know which direction they're all pulling in together. So I would say that that's it in a nutshell.

Megan Maletic  

Fantastic. Jo, could I perhaps also ask you the same,

Jo Rose    

I think explaining the why could never be more important in these difficult and challenging times. I also think leaders who are experienced and understand the cyclical nature of the ecosystem in which we work. There are certain times in political cycles or budget cycles that have particular pressures or challenges for the public sector. So someone who's been around a bit and can share that with their team, I also think a lot about everyday leadership, and sometimes some of the best leaders are the people who are not currently in leadership roles, and people who just turn up every day and they just keep doing the hard work, and they think about how to manage up and how to manage down, and they're aware that being a leader isn't about a title, and it's not about some golden pathway to the top, but more about how they can do their best work every day and take advantage of lateral moves to build their own skills. 

Megan Maletic  

Fantastic. Jo, I think that reflects really nicely into my next question, which is really about the committed people of the public sector. So Kathrina, what would you say a public sector of committed people really needs from its leadership?

Kathrina Lo  

I think people join the public service because they are driven by purpose, and they want to give back to the community, and they want to serve the community. So I think you've you've got that leadership, that role models, that that commitment, that service, that stewardship, that really sets the tone from the top. And I think that if you make very clear, you know what the standards are and the expectations are around, whether that be integrity and our other values, our other core public sector values, and we look at how we can bring those to life every day. I think that's what leaders can do for their people. Role model those values, create that culture which supports those values, embed those Systems and processes that also support those values and keep the customer, the customers that we serve, at the centre of what we do. So it's not so much about us, it's about rallying around that cause and that greater purpose.

Megan Maletic  

Fantastic. Jo, did you want to add to that?

Jo Rose 

Yeah, to me, it's about the values and the behaviours that underpin that manifest those values, and the two that I always direct people to are integrity, so being transparent, trying to challenge yourself, being aware Everyone makes mistakes, and that sometimes some of the best learning is from those mistakes, and particularly when we're dealing with really difficult problems, people need to try things differently, and that means we're not always going to get it 100% right, and then also service is one. I mean, obviously all four of the values, but service How? How are we every day making the world a better place for the people of New South Wales? And how can we draw a line of sight between that sometimes, as a back office enabler, it's hard to think about how paying someone means that a child's going to have a better educational experience. But thinking about that and trying to draw those lines of sight yourself can actually give you that enthusiasm that you need when things are more challenging.

Megan Maletic  

Yeah, and, and I think you know touching on in in what you've said is really at the heart of it, purpose led leadership. And I would love to know how purpose led leadership is crucial to the contribution that the public sector can make to the people of New South Wales. 

Kathrina Lo    

I think it's really just building on what we've been talking about so far. So you know, when you're purpose driven, you are actually driven by the greater good. It's not so much about you. It's keeping your mind on you know, what is that greater good that we're trying to achieve? What are the outcomes, in addition to the outputs? What are those bigger outcomes that we're trying to achieve? And for the public service? There's some really amazingly big outcomes that we're trying to achieve, and some really hard nuts that we're trying to crack, everything from, you know, moving towards net zero to,  closing the gap on indigenous disadvantage, addressing domestic and family violence. These are really big things, but I think that's part of the fun of working in the public service. If I could put it that way, that we get to work on these really big things and make that really big impact, and I think that's why a lot of public servants stay and are attracted to the public service in the first place. Is the nature of the work that we can do, 

And I think if we keep the outcomes centre of mind as well as thinking about the outputs, those outcomes that we're trying to achieve, I think that's where all of us, but especially leaders, play a really important Role in terms of thinking of what are we contributing? What are we driven? By what's our purpose? What are the outcomes we're trying to achieve, not only in our own generation, but across future generations, which is actually really exciting.

Megan Maletic  

Yeah, absolutely. Jo, did you want to add to that about purpose led leadership? 

Jo Rose 

I think we're seeing more mobility between the sectors. So we're seeing people move between state, Commonwealth, local, even the not for profit, and the private sector. And often, when I meet with people, very senior, people who've come in from the private sector, they say it's the purpose that attracted them, and then they also say what they hadn't quite realized is the complexity. So, people say it's a complex working environment. You're working in quite a unique ecosystem, working with politicians. But there's also, we're a big sector, right? We've got over 400,000 staff. The levers are not as apparent as they might be, particularly in the private sector. And I think it's the purpose that keeps people here, and that's why you find people who kind of do this rotation out of the out of the public sector and then back in. And there's nothing quite like knowing that every day you're getting up to make the difference to someone's life to help you, kind of that that is the why, that is really why we're here and why we're trying to innovate and be creative and actually solve those really challenging problems.

Megan Maletic  

Thanks, Jo, that's great. I've got a an interesting question here, Kathrina, which I think you know, is really at the heart of of being a leader, perhaps under more difficult or under pressure contexts, which is, what's your advice in balancing full and frank advice in the delivery of government services against being an employee who can be dismissed At any time or perhaps for no reason. 

Kathrina Lo  

I'm actually asked about that a fair bit by people who are thinking of moving into the senior executive ranks. I think there are a couple of important things to keep in mind. I think firstly, you know, we have to live our values, our core public sector values, and as leaders, we're also stewards of the sector, so that ability to give Frank and fearless advice is really important. What I say to people who are thinking of moving into very senior roles in the public sector is that you need to keep in mind living the values being a steward, but go in with open eyes as to what you're stepping into, and knowing that there could be a time where, due to no fault of your own, on many occasions, that you know your role or your employment might be terminated. So what you really need to do is keep your skills up to date, remain employable, and I guess, really back yourself, so that if something like that happens, if you've given some advice and it's not accepted, back yourself, so that you have other options.

Megan Maletic  

Fantastic. Jo, did you want to add to that?

Jo Rose  

I'll come to it from a slightly different angle. I think. So, more for people who are aspiring to those senior leadership roles. And there's a couple of key things that you can work on those skills whilst you're trying to travel up through the sector. One is about building relationships. So you can't give Frank and fearless advice if you haven't got real trust there, and if you're not shown to be accountable. And you can do that in every relationship you have across the sector. And the other thing is, and this is why I feel so passionately about people actually working face to face. You can't learn how other people do that without seeing how they do that. So there are plenty of opportunities in the sector to shadow people to even just take that opportunity. When you're invited to a meeting or you're asked to do a project, that's a bit of a stretch, and you've got to take it on and you're busy load.

I'm not talking about opportunities for sort of transfer, but more within your day to day world. Often people get off offered opportunities, or see potential projects that they could sort of muck in and help. And it's often in those environments that you can see how senior leaders actually manage themselves and how they live those values. And you've got to try it on a little bit. And then I would say, take those opportunities, but then really take the time to reflect. So what did they do that I could see would work for me? What did I they do that I can see works for them? But I don't want to try that on. And then how can I try and do that? Just in trying to offer Frank and fearless advice in other forum, you know, family, friends and actually, just keep trying it, because I think it's very difficult to just sort of get to the top and then then try and develop those behaviours. It is really something that you can work on for a very long time before you actually get to need to do it at the level that Kathrina is talking about. 

Megan Maletic  

So Kathrina, your position has given you a unique overview of the public sector, how it's changing and how it's performing, it's easy to get stuck in the unique parts of your own individual workplace, or the latest changes that perhaps you're facing into. I'd like to ask how important it is to have a wider view of the sector?

Kathrina Lo  

So important, and not only of the sector. But beyond the sector as well, I think, to be able to do a good job in the jobs we're in, we need to have that bigger picture. We need to understand context. We need to understand drivers, we need to understand what's happening nationally and even internationally, and we need to be able to see the broader trends, because nothing's really happening in isolation, and we need to see that bigger arc of things. So I think it's really incumbent on all of us, individually, actually, to be proactive in in terms of keeping in touch with what's going on, having an understanding of the broader operating environment, understanding the trends. It's not just about being served up information by our organization or by our manager. I think it really is incumbent on all of us to be proactive in keeping up to date with what's going on. 

Megan Maletic  

I think the interconnected nature of things is a really important point. And Jo, I was wondering how you would say IPAA is helping members in order to stay across these various sectors.

Jo Rose  

So our sort of raison d'etre is to help people be their best, for themselves, their careers, the people of New South Wales and you can't do that in isolation. So one of the great joys in being involved in IPAA is that we actually have a platform where people come together from the public sector, across the public sector, so outside your portfolio or agency across the wider public sector. So the other jurisdictions that we have relationships with academia, the not for profit sector, the private sector, we're really a rich melting pot where people can come together and share their views on how to solve very you know, small issues or build particular skills to quite complicated problems that the public sector solves. And so it's, I guess it's that connecting people to those various ideas, but also connecting them to each other. 

So there's nothing like being able to phone a friend when you have a particular challenge. And one of the great things about being involved in IPAA early in your career is that you do get to grow up with other people who have also growing up in the public sector. I look at people like Kathrina, who have been in the sector for 30 years, and I know her networks are big 30 years of relationships, You can't ever replicate that in any other way other than paying the time. So yeah, I think that that's that connection to ideas, but also that connection to people is really how we help people build a wider view. 

Megan Maletic   

And my sense is having the membership with IPAA creates that intentionality of continuing to connect and continuing to learn new and important information as well. So let's keep moving through to the next question. Kathrina, the episode that IPAA completed around diversity and inclusion is hugely important. I'd love to explore ways that you think people can champion diversity in their roles.

Kathrina Lo  

What I've always said to my teams or organisations I've led are all of us, and it's picking up on what Jo said. You could be a leader at any level, and that's because we all have a sphere of influence, and we can choose to contribute it, contribute positively within that own within our own sphere of influence. So, I think we need to think about each of us. You know, what is our sphere of influence? What are the positive steps that we can take, and there are so many ways I could probably write a whole chapter on this, but some simple things, like, if you're involved on a recruitment panel, I think it's about how to make that process inclusive. Are we able to check our own biases about people? How are we short listing? There are other things we could do. So, you know, every year we do the people matter employee survey, we got a lot of intelligence out of that, and just getting the team together and talking about what we learned from that, how we can improve the culture of our teams, and how things can operate differently, and how we can get that improvement over time. There are also lots of employee networks, everything from CALD to our Aboriginal staff to LGBTIQ plus to disability staff networks. And I think it's really good to not only be involved in that if you identify as part of one of those communities, but also as an ally. So, I think there's a lot to be said about being an ally as well. So they're just a few other ways I think people can get involved. 

Megan Maletic  

Fantastic. Jo, would you like to add to this?

Jo Rose  

We're very conscious in making sure we reflect the diversity of society in our programming. There was probably a time, not that many years ago, when if you went to events or professional associations, it would be middle aged men on panels talking about the things that they talked about, and we really very consciously ensure that we don't do that. we support those networks that Kathrina mentioned, so we have relationships and work with those in various ways. So encourage our members to get involved in those. Particular events. 

And I guess we're just conscious to make sure that we're a place where people feel that they are seen, so that sense of belonging and inclusion, that's a real key part of your professional association, that it's a soft landing place, that it's somewhere that can help you as you try and manage your own career. I think it's very incumbent on people these days to take the conscious choice that they have to manage their own career. No one's going to do it for you. And so that can be quite challenging, but if you're able to access a diverse range of views or perspectives people who've managed their careers in different ways, then it can help you do a better job of it yourself. And so I think that's probably having a diverse membership base is probably one of the great advantages of being involved in IPAA.

Megan Maletic  

The podcast Kathrina that you were part of was hugely popular. It was the first time that you've done the podcast. Or perhaps, how did you find it?

Kathrina Lo  

I think the team made it really enjoyable and helped me feel relaxed about it. Yeah, so I don't actually love public speaking, but it's one of those things where as you practice it feels more and more comfortable the more you do it.

Megan Maletic  

Fantastic. I think you know having the opportunity again to do it again today, obviously you're going to be a dab hand for sure, season two is on the cards. Jo, what advice do you have for people who are keen to be a guest on the show?

Jo Rose    

Let us know. I'd always love to receive emails, so please contact the CEO at our IPAA email address. It's the same as our URL with CEO at the front I really believe that there is no expert within the public sector. So we're as interested to hear from people who are new to their career, who are in the lower grades, as we are to hear from people who are senior executives, and that's at the heart of the podcast. We're answering questions that our members have asked, and our members are answering those. So Kathrina is a member. We're lucky enough to have her on our council. But it doesn't matter who you are in the sector, I guarantee that you will have something valuable that you can share with other members. And that's really part you know, that that is the essence of a community or an ecosystem. So, yeah, just put your hand up. I get to come across someone who says, I love public speaking. I'm, you know, and I'd maybe be a little bit worried if people if that was the way they got their excitement, but yeah, put yourself out there. It's a very safe environment, and we try to make sure that you're as comfortable as possible. 

Megan Maletic  

Fantastic. Thank you. 

Jo Rose 

Thanks for everyone, for being here today. I don't know about you, but I really loved hearing all the different perspectives and unique insights. I hope you got some wisdom out of today's conversations, and I hope you've got something that you can apply to your public sector career.

Being able to showcase diversity of thought and celebrate knowledge sharing are just two of the reasons that we started IPAA Insiders. And what I hope you know is that there are a lot of people behind the scenes here at IPAA Insiders, and I'd like to do a bit of a shout out to a couple of them. In, particular, Nicola Hardy, the Director of Capability Design and Member Engagement at IF New South Wales.

Our producer, Alessia Campagna, and our technical editor Anthony Watson.

And I'd also like to thank David Prideaux from Wesley Mission Studios for the Studio time. The first season of IPAA Insiders is available now. And if you missed an episode, I do encourage you to go back and have a listen. I always want to hear what you think, so please do slide into my dms and tell me if there's something that we missed, something that you wish that we'd asked, or if you want be part of the conversation.

And I'll see you next time for season two. 

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